a living history interview with Dr. Pat McCown, class of 1965, conducted by Marilyn Summers on September the 25th, the year is 2017. 

We are at the Wardlaw Communications Studio in the Wardlaw Building on the Georgia Tech campus in Atlanta, Georgia. And the subject of our interview today, his life in general, his experiences at Georgia Tech. Dr. Pat McCown, thank you for joining us here today. You came to us, so I appreciate very much having you here today. Glad to do it. 

I'm ready to hear your story and the best way I always is to tell me where were you born and when? 

I was born in Birmingham, Alabama in 1943. 

Why were you there? 

Why was your parents there? 

Because my grandfather, step -grandfather, was a traveling salesperson and he and my grandmother were living in Birmingham and my father was in the Navy overseas and so my mother went to live with them during my birth. That was a very common thing. Mama would go home to her mama while she gave birth. 

So your father was involved with World War II. Yeah, he was in the Navy in the Pacific Theater and served on a Solenoid tender, as I recall. That's pretty interesting. Yeah. I want to talk about both sides of your family, so let's start with your father. Tell me, where was he born? 

He was born in River Junction, Florida. 

So he's from down, way under. Right. It's in the panhandle. It's right there where Lake Seminole is now, Chattahoochee. It's actually a suburb of Chattahoochee, if you will. I didn't even know there was a city down there called Chattahoochee. Oh, yes. There used to be a very large psychiatric hospital in Chattahoochee. Isn't that funny? 

Yeah. You know something new all the time. Right. 

So your dad was born there. 

What did his parents, what did his father do for a living that he happened to be born there? 

His father died at a very young age in New Mexico working in a mine. Really? 

Yes. in 1919. 

So your daddy was a little boy and he was not in New Mexico with him? 

No, no, he was with his mother back still in Chattahoochee and he was born in 1912. It's not clear why my grandfather went to New Mexico. I don't know if there was work or what. You don't know what his trade was? 

No, no. 

So was there, maybe did they have silver or gold strike out there? 

I don't know. I have not been able to track that down. We have we have his obituary from out there. 

It was not a good idea for him to go out there because he had lung problems already and to go work in a mine is not. That's pretty mind-boggling. 

Right yeah and it was you know and unfortunately I never did sit down with my dad and really explore it. We have been able to like I say we have a newspaper clipping with an obituary of him. Do you know what city it wasn't in Mexico? 

I have a reason for asking. Yeah, yeah. No, so he... 

So he passed away when your daddy was only seven years old? 

Seven years old, right. And my grandmother was a dispatcher in the railroad depot in River Junction. There was a large railroad switching yard there, and she was a dispatcher. 

So she had a job to be able to support your father. Did she have any other children? 

She had a daughter who died, who lived in Kentucky. She met and married a man, and they moved to Kentucky. And she died shortly before my dad did in 1984. Oh, so you knew her. She was your aunt. I knew her. I knew my aunt, yes. And, in fact, my first cousin lives here in Atlanta. 

So your dad and his sister were left to be raised by their widowed mother. Where was your grandmother from? 

Chattahoochee. Right there. 

They had lived, the family, the Edwards family, had lived in the Gadsden County area, the Quincy area, since 1820. Do you know where they came from? 

Georgia, I believe. I'm not sure where. Just wondered if you'd ever check back to see maybe you're a son of the Revolution. Oh, yeah, I've checked back pretty far. Are you a son of the revolution then? 

Yes, on the other side, on the McCowan side. 

But my sister did a lot of research because she was looking into becoming a member of the Daughters of the Revolution, American DAR. And there seemed to be two brothers with the same name. One fought in the revolution, one didn't. so there's some ambiguity about the same first thing so that's what we can figure out wow and our daughter our daughter who is an anthropologist had access to large-scale graveyard records and she couldn't find one day the three of us were talking back and forth on the phone trying to determine what had happened to this person in the revolution that's it it's so interesting to go back and look at the records yeah and so uh my grandmother my grandfather was joseph mccowan uh like i say he died in 1912 my grandmother was eva edwards mccowan herring she married a um another employee of the railroad so your father had a stepfather then yeah yeah my father I had a stepfather, and he died when I was in the ninth grade. I can't remember what year that was. 

But you knew him. Yeah, I knew him quite well, yeah. And did your grandmother live long enough for you to know her? 

Oh, yeah. 

Tell me, what was she like? 

You probably have pictures of her, but what was she like in your memory? 

A very stern woman who had... She wasn't baking cookies for you, huh? 

No, no. 

She was fairly stern because she had had a tough life, losing her husband with two kids and living by herself. And she was working. Working and all of that, yeah. She had a big responsibility. And my father was somewhat of a handful to raise. Was he really? 

Based on his recollection, yes. 

Even he remembered being a handful? 

We asked him not to tell many stories around our son because of... Too many ideas. too many ideas some of his uh some of his stories are pretty amazing and uh so uh those were times when you know kids could do a whole lot of stuff even you were brought up at a time when you had right oh yeah i mean i walked to town in chattahoochee when i was seven or eight years old no big deal you know different times and so they could get into mischief oh yeah yeah yeah And with your mama working, which was not common for his age. Most of his playmates and parents probably didn't have that arrangement. 

So your heart has to go out to her. She had a hard time. That was a difficult thing for her to do. 

What about your mama's side of the family? 

What were they like? 

What do you remember of your grandparents on that side? 

I never knew my real grandfather. 

So you didn't have any grandpas at all to speak of except for the stepfather. Right, right. 

But I did have another step-grandfather on my mother's side. She married a, like I say, she married a fellow who traveled in a very non -existent profession now. He traveled in typewriter ribbons. Oh, for goodness sakes. Yeah. And did he travel by car or by train? 

Oh, I don't know that. I would guess train. He had a district, didn't he? 

Yeah, he had a large region. He would go from city to city. City to city, right. How times has changed. And that's, you know, that doesn't exist anymore. Yeah. There's a whole bunch of stories about the traveling salesman that kids don't get nowadays. They just don't get the joke, you know. Yeah. I did not know my grandmother. She died in 1948 from kidney disease. Really? 

Yeah. 

So you didn't even get to know? 

I didn't get to. You didn't have a grandmother that baked cookies for you then. Not really. Oh, I'm sorry. 

But my step-grandfather was around a lot, or he came to visit a lot. He remarried, and then he died in 1956 or 57. 

Did your mom, your grandmother, your mother's mother, did she have other children, or was your mother an only child? 

She was an only child. She was. Only child. 

So you don't have any family left at all, then, to speak of on that side. Not on that side. None? 

No, no, that's at... Do you know where they came from originally? 

Missouri. 

So they immigrated from Missouri to Birmingham, Alabama? 

No, no, no. My mother lived in Missouri, Rolla, Missouri, and St. Louis. And she met my step -grandfather. And when they married, then she was with him in Birmingham. 

Okay, so she moved to Birmingham. Right, right. They were originally the family from Missouri. They had to come from somewhere else. Somewhere else, but who knows? 

We don't even know. No, no. Wow. I feel so sorry for you not having grandparents. 

But I must say that my wife's family has taken me in. They've taken your place. She has a very large, extended, loving family. 

So I shouldn't feel sorry for you then? 

No, no, not at all. 

We just had our 50th wedding reception, and they were all there, and we had a dinner after, and it was so much fun to do that and not go to a funeral. Yeah, which is what we tend to do as we age. That is true. That is true. 

So do you know how your mom and dad met? 

My dad was in school at the University of Florida, working on his bachelor's degree. And we talked earlier about working. He worked multiple jobs, even in his fraternity. He was a waiter in his own fraternity to pay for his way through school. And my mother was working as a secretary in Jacksonville. 

But I never did hear how they actually met, maybe through a friend or something. Are they about the same age? 

They were two years difference, two years difference. 

And so, yeah, they met in 34, I think, and got married in 1936, actually down in Fort Myers, where he had taken a job as a schoolteacher coach. and she traveled down to get married and no family at all was there wow so and you didn't come along till 43 43 yeah how much did you have older siblings no I have a younger sister that's five and a half years so they waited a long time to get married no they got married 36 but they waited a long time but I don't think it was a matter function of waiting they they never thought they were going to have children. Really? 

So you were surprised. I was a surprise. The heir parent when you came. Yeah. 

And being born in 43, I'm surprised your father was in the service then because he was a little bit older. Yeah, he was 30 at that time. Yeah, that's kind of unusual. He went in. He would not have had to go in if he was already married. 

Well, 28, I don't know. 

You know, I don't know how that worked, but he went in under something called the Gene Tooney Program. Remember Gene Tooney? 

The boxer? 

The boxer. 

They had created a program where they were bringing in physical education teachers to be drill instructors in the Navy. How cool. I never heard that before. 

But typical of the Navy, he never did that. Oh, no. I thought you were going to tell me all this story. No, no. He never did that. He never did. It kind of makes sense that they would be really good drill sergeants, but it never happened. Never happened. Not in his case. I wonder if it happened for other people. I've not followed up on it at all. If there was a Gene Tunney program. 

I think there probably was a program, but like the military, you go into one thing and they send you to do something else. And there he did. He ended up being on a ship out in the sea. Who knew? 

Yeah. How long did he serve? 

Do you know when he got there? 

Until 45. 

So you were two years old when he came home to meet you? 

Yeah, but he had been home. He was not on ship when I was born. He was... I have pictures of myself at a very young age with him where he'd been back on leave or whatever. 

But you didn't remember that? 

I didn't, no. 

You probably don't even remember him coming to home when you were two years old because we don't usually remember that. 

But what do you remember? 

What is your earliest memory? 

Can you remember when your sister was born? 

Yes, I do remember when my sister was born. And how much younger than you is she? 

She's five and a half years. Oh, yeah, you remember that. Yeah, I remember that, yeah. 

So now let's go back a little bit farther. What else do you remember before that? 

Falling off my sidewalk bike and breaking a leg. I knew that was going to be a dream. We remember something that doesn't happen every day, and hopefully that didn't happen every day. You fell off of a bicycle or a tricycle? 

It was a bicycle. 

So you were already riding a two-wheeler? 

At four. Oh, you were ahead of your time there. Yeah, I guess. I never had thought about it, but it didn't have a chain. It had a belt. They called them sidewalk bikes. Oh, my goodness. Very small bikes, and I fell off and broke a leg. Another thing I never heard of. Yeah. And you really did. You broke your leg. It was a grain stick fracture. 

But I had a cast on it. You had a cast on it. 

Well, you remember that because it didn't happen every day of the week. Right, right. Yikes. Scared the **** out of your mom, too, I'm sure. No excuse that word. She went, oh, my gosh. 

Little boys have a way of knitting stitches and having to go to emergency rooms for things, scrapes and stuff like that. 

But breaking a bone, that's really serious. 

But I don't remember much else. 

Well, that's what we remember. See, actually, we've kind of jumped there. 

We were living in, they were living in Fort Myers, and he came back in 45, and they went through a number of entrepreneurial things. They owned a cigar store in downtown Fort Myers. He tried it from teaching school, high school, to being a cigar store. 

Yeah, he came back from the military, and he had been sending all the money home to my mother, and she had been saving it, so they used it to buy a cigar store in downtown Fort Myers. And then they sold that and bought a motel out on Fort Myers Beach. And so it's still there. And your mom and dad were running it? 

Running it, yeah. Did your grandmother live with them? 

Oh, no, no, no. She was still in Chattahoochee. She never left Chattahoochee. She never did. Never did. and uh it's still there for all these years oh yeah what's the name of it the silver sands motel i wish i could tell you i remember that but i don't know it's one of the old-fashioned motels with individual cottages so they call them motor ends motor ends whatever right in front of it yeah you are you parked in this case you go down a side street and you can park between the cottages it's still there we see it all the time we bike pass it frequently yeah so that's kind of cool so that was for a year and then they didn't stay there indefinitely oh okay he was trying things out as my mother said we never made so much money or worked so hard because you know they were doing all of this stuff oh yeah that's terrible difficult job dealing with the general public is a very challenging thing to do and they then moved to they moved to Chattahoochee back up to Chattahoochee in 47, I believe, and lived there until 50. And he had a number of businesses there, and my sister was born there. 

So that would be where you started school then. Yeah, I remember school. 

Do you remember if you went to kindergarten or was it first grade? 

I've been told I went to kindergarten. 

But you have no recollection of that? 

I don't have any recollection of that. That would have been five probably. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I just don't, it doesn't stick in my mind. You didn't have your cast yet. You hadn't fallen yet. I had fallen before that, I think. It already healed up? 

It already healed up. 

But I think I went to kindergarten, but I don't remember it. I remember elementary school. I remember that they wanted me to write with my right hand, even though I'm left-handed. That was a dated thing to do. What was the name of the school? 

Chattahoochee Elementary. If you've never been to Chattahoochee, there's not much there. It doesn't have street lights. I mean stop lights one or two traffic lights just one or two. 

So it's pretty small even today. Oh, yeah, and they closed down the psychiatric center. 

So there was nothing to work for. 

But it was still a train place you said. Yeah, at that time. The trains were still going through at that time. 

Okay, so you started in first grade at the Chattahoochee Elementary. 

Do you remember your first grade teacher's name? 

No, but if you'll give me a year or two, I can remember some. 

If you think about it, you'll remember something about it. 

Do you remember if you knew your alphabet and your numbers by the time you went into at six years old when you went into elementary? 

I don't remember. Do you remember your mother ever drilling you on them? 

No. 

You probably didn't know that because if she wanted you to learn them beforehand, she would have drilled you. Right. No. there were two ways I'm not sure the dates on it but there were philosophies in education as you know they change over time some people said they didn't one theory was they didn't want the parents messing around it was up to the teachers and another was why isn't this child prepared to learn how to read you know starting elementary school in 1949 is Because, you know, that was probably a time when they didn't want you to know too much. It's very possible. We moved to Gainesville, Florida. 

So you were in the first grade, just that school one year? 

Just for our semester there. 

Oh, really? 

We moved in the middle of the year so my dad could go back and get his master's degree in education. He went back to school in Gainesville. In Gainesville, and we lived there for a year. Did your mother have a job to support? 

Yes, she worked for a biology professor. 

Okay, so she got a job in Gainesville when they moved. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it worked as a biology. And she had a small baby because your sister had just been born. Yeah, my sister was like two or something. Yeah, so then that made, like, challenging for them, no doubt. Oh, yeah, yeah. 

And you went into school there for the rest of the first grade? 

The rest of the first grade and part of the second grade, and don't remember any teachers there. 

But I do remember a fellow classmate who then moved to Ocala just like I did. Uh-huh. 

So you got to know him longer than that. Yeah, right. 

So you were kind of a gypsy for your early times. Right. 

Then your father moved to Ocala because why? 

What was that? 

Well, he finished his master's degree, and he got a teaching position in Ocala. In elementary, high school? 

High school. High school. High school. 

Okay, so what was the name of the elementary school you went into? 

Wyoming Park. Wyoming Park. Wyoming Park. I'm not sure where that comes from. I don't either. It's still there. And your good fortune was that somebody from the other school also went there. Eventually we got together. And my second grade teacher in Ocala was Mrs. C. 

So you do remember. S-E -A-Y, because she was also my third grade teacher. Oh, was she? 

Yeah. She had to put up with you for twice. 

No, what happened was that actually I entered an elementary school in the second grade, midway through the second grade at one school, and then my parents moved between, and so I went to another, went to Waimeater Park, and for some reason Mrs. C. also moved. She from the second grade to the third grade. Your teacher moved with you. She was following you. Right. That's a lot of moving. Oh, yeah. That's a lot of moving. And so you had different houses everywhere you went. And that's a lot of moving, a little unsettling. Did you have a pet? 

Did you have a dog or a cat when you were a kid? 

Oh, yeah, multiple ones. You did. 

So they moved with you then? 

Let's see. I think we probably didn't have a dog until we moved into the house when I was in the third grade. I can't remember. We had cats. We had one cat that had multiple toes, more than five toes, you know, like the Hemingway cats. Yeah, I was just going to say that's what they called them. It's called Foots. We called him Foots. That's a good name. Yeah, and there was multiple dogs along that time. Did you put roots down there and stay a while? 

Yeah, we did. We stayed at that house. 

I finished elementary school at Waimana Park, and we lived in that house for maybe, I guess three years and then we went through a series of a couple of Reynolds before we bought another house it's right near the same elementary school so how many years did you live in Ocala how many until I graduated from high school okay so that it was all within the Ocala few miles my My dad took a teaching position at a school, outlying school in Marion County. 

But he didn't move the family? 

No, didn't move the family. It was an unusual teaching position. It was an outlying school with eight grades and four teachers. And he was seventh and eighth grade teacher and the principal. Wow, that is different. It must have been a very small population. Yeah, it was out in the Ocala National Forest. Oh, really? 

It was 20 miles outside of Ocala. Wow, who knew there'd even be a population in the forest, for goodness sake. You'd be surprised. It's an interesting part of the country that you grew up in. It is, yeah. I've only been to Ocala once, but I remember there was glass -bottom boats. Oh, yeah, and Silver Springs. Yeah, that's, I remember that. Interesting to see. And somewhat of a wilderness area, at least that part of it was. Yeah. Have you seen the movie The Yearling? 

Oh, years ago. Marjorie Cannon-Rollins. That was all shot in that. It was all shot in that area and everything. 

So what was life like growing up in Ocala, Florida? 

I mean, did you have, I picture it as very jungle -like because that's the part of it I've seen. 

But did you live in a neighborhood that was a subdivision? 

Oh, yeah. 

So we lived in a subdivision that is still a very nice subdivision. 

So there were kids on the street? 

Oh, yeah, yeah. And you could go play football or baseball? 

Oh, yeah, all the time, yeah. 

You had a fairly leave-it-to -beaver kind of growing up then? 

I guess that would be a good description of it. Yeah, I mean, those days, personal freedom. I mean, no one was watching you every minute. They expected you to follow the rules. You knew what they were. You knew when you had to be home for dinner, right? 

Right. You knew if you got in trouble in school, you'd get in trouble at home. Oh, yeah. You knew that. I knew that. You knew the rules, and you were expected to follow the rules. 

An interesting part of my time there with my dad, unlike today, they were on a nine-month salary or a ten-month salary. Oh, so he had some size. 

In the summer, for three years, he was the camp director of a camp called Camp Kiwanis out on a lake in the National Forest. There's Camp Kiwanis's all over the place. They're sponsored by the club, right? 

Yeah, through the Kiwanis, yeah. 

And this one was out on a lake, and he was camp director for like maybe eight weeks or seven weeks in the summer. Which would get to go. And so every, oh, we lived out there. 

Well, the whole family lived. The whole family lived out there. 

And what we would do is Monday morning at the start of the week, we would get up early and catch the bus with all the kids that were going out there. and then we would stay through midday on Saturday and come back on the bus and spend Saturday night and Sunday night in our home. And then go back again. And then go back. And what I would do would be a camper maybe two of the eight weeks. The rest of the time I was just bumming around. Wow. That sounds like paradise for a kid. It was. It was. Because you're bumming around on a campground where there are all kinds of interesting things. With a bunch of other kids. Yeah. Yeah, that's not too hard. And I didn't have to go through all the regimen they did. Only two weeks you did. Didn't have to live in a cabin. I hung out with the counselors and stuff like that. Pretty tough for you. It was a tough. Did your sister have the same gig as a co-ed camp? 

I thought you said it was a boys camp. No, it was boys and girls. Oh, so it was co-ed. Co-ed camp. 

So your sister, she had a good deal too then. 

But she didn't. She was five and a half years younger than me. maybe she we were two or three when we started this and maybe she was six when we ended staying out there so she never had a pretty good memory for you yeah it was a lot of fun yeah but when you were home what was your routine like did you walk to school was it close enough to walk to bike you took your bike always biked yeah okay other kids in the neighborhood going the same way you yeah never alone was always okay oh we were always well i might have been alone you know But, I mean, there was always plenty of people around. Oh, yeah, yeah. Kids for you to do things with. Oh, yeah. 

So you did the usual things. You collected marbles. When you were a little kid, you did all the play things that kids do. Went fishing with my dad. Uh-huh. 

So your dad did find time to take you fishing? 

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. My dad found time for me to practice being a baseball pitcher, which I never was very good at. 

But he tried. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we'd go fishing on weekends. We would, mainly fishing. We never did any hunting. Hunting was not part of our life. It was all fishing. 

But that's, you got to spend quality time with them. Which is really, believe me, that was a blessing. You were very fortunate. Not all children do have that. Yeah. Not all children, so you were blessed that way. You were deprived of grandfathers, but you had a conscientious daddy. I did. I did. Paid attention to him. Who was very demanding in a lot of ways. Yeah, but he paid attention to him. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. That's really good. And a mom who taught me to dance when that came time, you know. Which it was important in those days, so I learned how to dance. 

So she took an interest in you, too. 

Did she continue to work while you were growing up? 

My mother? 

Yeah, she was a secretary at the Presbyterian Church. 

So she always had some kind of a job. And then they bought a bookstore where both of them worked. That's pretty cool. Yeah. and it was initially a newsstand bookstore and over time they reduced the whole newsstand part and made it more of a book and card shop. And she managed that until, I guess, after we were married, after my wife and I got married. 

So for a long time. For a long time. 

From the time, I guess, from when I was in the sixth grade, So from when I was 12 until I was 20, maybe 30, you know. The Wyoming Elementary School lasted to what grade? 

Sixth grade. Sixth grade. And then was there a junior high? 

Then I went to junior high. Which was what one? 

Seventh, eighth, and ninth. What was the name of it? 

Ocala Junior High School. Okay. Close by to the grade school? 

No, no. 

Well, for a while there, we actually moved again. after the grade school, twice in fact, and when I was in the 8th grade, 7th and 8th grade, I guess, I was very close to the middle school, the junior high school. 

So you could get there easy enough. Oh, get there easy. What about high school then? 

Went to Ocala High School. Was that close enough? 

Close enough. 

So you never had to ride a school bus is what I'm getting at. I never rode a school bus. 

Okay, you could always get yourself a school bus. Except when going to athletic events or things like that. 

But no, getting to school went from being, doing bicycles to having a motor scooter to driving. Really? 

You know, that was kind of the... 

But none of it was walking, so you never lived close enough to actually walk? 

No. Okay. Were you ever a Boy Scout? 

Yeah. Cub Scout? 

Yeah. Both? 

Both. Okay. Cub Scout at that, living in Ocala then? 

Yeah, both in Ocala, yeah. Was your mom a dead mother? 

I don't think so. She was working. 

I don't remember my Cub Scout years, but I know I did because I earned an award after I became a Boy Scout for the transition from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouting. You remember the award, but not the... It's called Weebelos. Weebelos, yeah. 

But I don't remember any more than that. Just that they were that. 

But you did fly up into Boy Scouts then. I did. And how long did you stay in Boy Scouts? 

Until I was 14, I think. Actually, I went in to explore a little while. 

So you did go through middle school. Yeah. That was part of your life going on. Oh, yeah. 

Do you remember your scoutmaster's name? 

Yeah, he was our minister at the Presbyterian Church that sponsored the troop. It doesn't matter, because you do remember that. Yeah, I remember him quite well. 

When people, when young men get into middle school, that's usually when they start playing organized, you know, schools offer more organized sports activities. Did you get involved? 

Yes. 

Well, I actually played Little League. Oh, you did? 

Yeah, I played Little League. That's what your father was trying to be. He was a baseball, he was, Ben, that was another part of his summer activities. They would pay him to coach Little League. Oh, so when he was coaching you on being a pitcher, he knew what he was doing. Right, right. Okay. And we had a, our team in the little league was pretty good. And then I played one year of the next level up, which I can't call what it is right now. Senior league, I think. Senior league. I played one year of that. 

But I got very interested in swimming at that point. I was wondering when you were going to introduce that. Yeah, that was when I was 12. Kind of late, really, you know, these days. 

Well, you were just going into middle school. No, 12, you were still in elementary school. Sixth, seventh, something like that, yeah. 

Well, that could have been. Sixth grade, I think, yeah. And did they have a competitive team at school? 

We did, the Ocala Rec. 

So that's what got you involved in school. Right, right. And it was competitive. Oh, yeah. 

So, now, was that one of those, did you train, like, at the crack of dawn every morning? 

No, no. I always, my heart goes out to the parents of these kids who have to drop their kids off at 5.30 or 6.00. Right, right. No, that was way before that. We didn't train in the winter. 

So it wasn't that tough then? 

It wasn't that tough. 

And you never had realized up until that point that you could be a good swimmer? 

Oh, I knew I was a pretty good swimmer, but I'd never, I mean, I just, it was just something to do in the summer. 

Okay, it wasn't something you were concerned about? 

Because I spent a lot of time at the rec department. I took tennis lessons there. I played junior golf. And they had a pool? 

And they had a city pool that I eventually lifeguarded at. When you were a Boy Scout, did you go away to Boy Scout camp? 

I did. 

But at that time you were a little bit older, so you could really work on your merit badges. Yeah, all that sort of stuff, right. And have an overnight where your dad wasn't in charge of everything. Oh, yeah. He wasn't involved in Boy Scouts at all. Do you remember your Scoutmaster's name? 

Like I say, Mr. Turner. Oh, that's right. I heard he asked you that. That was our Presbyterian minister. Yeah, I was thinking that he was in Cub Scouts, but he went all the way through. All right. 

When you look back, the society of the time, your family, your school, they were keeping you very busy. You were a very busy boy. 

You had lots of activities because the theory was the busier we kept you, the less chance you were going to get in any kind of problems. Yeah, I guess so. You were going to do it. Never thought about it, but that was the case. We're keeping you busy. Yeah. you did well in school reasonably well yeah did you ever have a job a part -time job or did you have responsibilities at home I had responsibilities at home but I can't really tell you what they were but if your dad if the grass needed cutting oh yeah oh I mowed lawns my lawn and other lawns and others beside yours yeah you wouldn't have given him any sass if your grass needed cutting You knew that was your responsibility. 

But the worst thing that I had to do was rake leaves. I hated that. It was boring, huh? 

Oh, I don't know. 

Well, it was just these tiny little oak leaves, and they just spring right through there. Yeah, they go right through there. And we would have huge piles of them. Drove you nuts, huh? 

I did not enjoy that part. Did you get an allowance? 

Yes, I did. Was it yours to spend as you chose? 

Sure, it was. 

But when I was 14, or maybe sooner, but I know when I was 14, I had a scooter. 

And my job was on Tuesdays and Wednesday mornings to go down to the bookstore, the newsstand, and count magazines in before I went to school. Okay. And I also had a Sunday afternoon shift of running the cash register. 

So your parents were raising you to understand that work was part of life. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Everybody learned how to pitch in and help, do what they had to do, and there were rewards for that. You could learn how to earn a little bit of money and save a little bit of money. Did you ever go to the movies on Saturdays? 

Oh, yeah, all the time. 

So that was part of your growing up, too. Oh, yeah. Close enough? 

Sure. I don't, very, very seldom do I interview somebody who wasn't in the movies on Saturday. Yeah. Very seldom. Following the serial. Always. Hopalong Cassidy and Gene Autry. Ramar of the Jungle. 

You know the scene from Star Wars, the first Star Wars, episode four, I guess, whatever it is, whatever, you know, first one we saw back in 1977, there was a scene in there where they're in the garbage pit, garbage thing and the presser is coming up on them, that's right out of Ramar of the Jungle where they're in a cave and the floor is coming back on them. And you remember that. Oh, yeah. When I saw that, I said, that's right from Ramar of the Jungle. That's because you were mesmerized by that performance when you saw it. That was just, it was so much a part of our growing up. And that was the end of the serial. You know, they were about to have the floor come back. And then they just left us hanging. Right. And you not only saw the serials, but you also saw the news, whatever the latest news was. I don't know what they were calling it in your part of town. The movie tone or Fox tone, a whole different one. And you saw a movie, too, and usually it was a Western. At least one. Something, yeah. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes two. And a cartoon. Oh, yeah. Because all of that. All the cartoons were there. What a deal. 

For what? 15 cents or nine cents initially i think it went from there and when you think about it what a deal it was the greatest babysitter in america oh yeah and you were safe as you as if you were in your own bed right that was the part that we don't have anymore yeah so we don't have that peace of mind and that safety your parents could send you the movie they didn't have to worry about you you knew when to come home right and if you had to pay for it yourself you were learning that you're allocating your dime for that sure and maybe a snack right whatever yeah if you lived in Atlanta it was a Coca-Cola for a nickel popcorn for another nickel you know but what a great memory to have though isn't it when you think about it and it's something that our children our grandchildren and great-grandchildren will never know what that is that we were like you know just this little society that got to do what we wanted to do but you still learned about work You were privileged, but you were not exempt from having to earn a buck now and then. 

So by the time you got into high school, which was at the 10th grade, so that was probably 15 or 16. 

When you got into high school, you were already aware that you were a pretty good swimmer and that you were going to go right on into the competition swimming in high school. 

Oh, I started high school swimming in the 9th grade, but I was still in middle school or junior high school. I swam as a freshman. 

Well, then that was junior high. 

Yeah, well, the ninth grade, which was counted toward high school, was still among the seventh, eighth, ninth grade. 

So you were a big deal in that. Then you went into high school and not so big a deal. No, it was high school swimming. I mean, in the ninth grade. No, I mean, generally speaking. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you were the low man when you came in there. Right, yeah. 

But you did compete. Oh, yeah. Was that your major sport? 

You didn't compete? 

Nothing else. Okay. Did the high school that you go to have basketball in the winter? 

Absolutely. baseball in the spring and then football in the fall oh yeah and everybody in town go track and field yeah golf and you went to all the meets and all the games and it was i went to the football games less so to the basketball not at all to the baseball really it was just not i was during swimming season you know yeah but but even the town would go to the games not oh yeah sure oh Oh, yeah. Parrots went and supported. Oh, yeah, everybody went. It was like Friday Night Lights. Yeah, exactly. 

But not quite as extreme as that. Yeah, I didn't know if Florida was as involved in that as, you know, the upper southern states were. 

But it was then. Oh, yeah. It was part of growing up. They did not have divisions and state championships until after I graduated. 

Okay, so it was a little bit behind what was going on. Yeah, they had not come across, had not developed that system yet. Do you remember when your family got a television? 1954. Do you remember getting it? 

Oh, yeah, quite well, very well, yeah. 

Your mother would allow you to watch it, but you didn't sit there like the kids do with their devices in their hands today. 

Well, we only got one channel. 

There was nothing to sit for, right? 

And, you know, it was mainly a nighttime, you know, maybe 7 to 9 type of thing. I can remember sitting and listening to the radio in the evenings with the family. Do you remember that? 

Oh, yes. 

When we lived in Gainesville, I quite went and listened to the Lone Ranger on the radio. There were all kinds of dramas, and we used our imagination. I think there was the Lux, maybe it was the Lux radio. They advertised soaps all the time, didn't they? 

Oh, yeah. Lux and Ivory and all the kind of stuff. Mainly Ivory. I don't remember Lux. I remember Ivory because it was 99 and 44, 100% pure. Yeah, yeah. And on Saturdays, we might be listening to serial children's shows. Yeah. Because I can remember that, too. Oh, yeah, right. And didn't think anything else, staying home and listening to the radio. Right. The family sometimes joined around. 

And then the television came, and we sat around the television and watched I Love Lucy and things like that. Yeah, I remember all of that. 

Meanwhile, you were growing up, and did you always know that you were going to go to college, or was that a surprise? 

That was not a surprise. 

My father had made that quite clear, that if you didn't go to college, you were just not going to be able to advance yourself as much as you would if you did go to college. 

So he was quite verbal about that. Oh, he was quite sure that I was going to college. 

So it wasn't if, it was where. It was where, right. 

So in your junior high, you started taking, did you take a PSAT or an exam? 

I took a PSAT in my junior year. Yeah, I meant junior year, yeah. 

And then, so by the time you got to be a senior, did you know where you were going to go, or how would you figure that out? 

That's kind of strange. Tell me. 

Well, my dad having been a Florida grad, and us living 30 miles south of Gainesville, we went to Florida football games, and I went up to various science fairs in Gainesville to the University of Florida. 

I was quite clear in my own mind that I was going to go to an engineering program at the University of Florida. 

Had you imaged what your career was going to be? 

In the ninth grade, I wrote a term paper on I was going to be an aeronautical at that time. 

So you made up your mind that early. Yes. That was where my interest was, yes. And nobody said, no, no, don't do that pattern. They encouraged you. No, absolutely not. Did you make model airplanes and rocket ships and all that? 

All that stuff. Did a science project on space travel and rocket ships. And you were good at math and science? 

Yes, I was. 

So it was something like a very reasonable thing, and yet that didn't happen. I went to Georgia Tech instead. How did that happen? 

I received a letter during the spring of my senior year. 

Well, let me back up. I applied for the Air Force Academy as well. My dad, a friend of my dad's, was a state, was a U. S. senator from Florida. They'd been fraternity brothers. And so he had put my name forward in a competitive type of sense. He didn't name me as his single choice, but it was a competitive. And so you were waiting to find out. I was waiting to find out about that. 

I had applied to Florida and then I received a congratulatory letter from Georgia Tech on I think my PSAT and so I said yeah I'll send my scores to them to Georgia Tech was actually sending out something at that time wow that surprises me because they were really slow on the get-go for recruiting really well I don't know maybe it was just you know a standard deal I don't I didn't think my PSAT was that good, but anyway, so. What did you know about Georgia Tech? 

Nothing. Anything? 

Except that. You got a letter. I got a letter. And that I think Florida played them at one time. I may have seen them play. You know, I wasn't thinking the Air Force Academy or Florida was basically it. And the Air Force Academy, I had a very poor performance on a physics SAT test, the achievement test. I don't know. It was rainy. I was wet and cold. I don't know what it was. It just didn't do well. And so I didn't win the nomination. I didn't win the nomination. Okay. And so. That left two schools. That left two, well, it really left Florida. I was still going to go to Florida. And Tech accepted me, and I'm waiting for Florida, and I'm waiting for Florida. It'd get down to early June. It hadn't been accepted. 

And at that time, Florida had a test that all seniors took, a senior achievement test or something, I don't know. And I'd scored very well on it. I always could do well on standardized tests. Verbal, math, didn't matter. I could guess really well or something. Or you knew it. I knew it. Anyway, so even though I had this high score, I still hadn't been accepted by Florida. And so... Wasn't your dad concerned about that? 

My dad called up and wondered why. and and finally they figured out that my school counselor had failed to send in some information that they needed but by that time my mind was in Atlanta really so I just we decided we'd go to I'd go to Georgia Tech and what did you know at that point about Georgia Tech supposed to be a really good engineering school that you did hear that oh I knew that you didn't know the reputation was pretty sound oh yeah that was what year 1961 61 yeah okay you graduate from high school in 1961 and you're still determined you're going to go into a e and we had a pretty good program oh yeah great program program yeah and you weren't particularly attracted by the football or anything like that because that you didn't had you heard about bobby dot oh sure so you were Oh, yeah. I knew all about Bobby Dodd. His son played for Florida. Yeah. I knew that, yeah, quite well. 

So it wasn't like you, but you had never been there. Never been there. You had never come back. We had come to Atlanta. You said you had a come back. And when I was 17 for a swim meet. Oh, okay. They used to have a meet out in East Point and then one in LaGrange. And we'd come up and I'd swim in both those meets. 

But we never came over and looked at Tech. 

In fact, when my mom was driving myself and another student from Ocala who was going to Georgia Tech up here, we had no idea how to get to Georgia Tech. For heaven's sake. 

So you really didn't see it before you got here? 

No. I had no idea what I was going to. 

Did anyone mention to you that it was a challenging school, that it might be hard? 

You don't remember that either? 

No. I had nobody really to talk with about it, you know? 

So you were coming as an innocent little lamb. That is absolutely the case. Lighting you up for who knew what. 

So tell me then, did you have the standard footlocker or suitcase with all your worldly possessions? 

Absolutely, absolutely. And your mom drove you up with this other kid? 

Drove me and another student from Ocala. Yeah, a friend of yours? 

We knew each other. We didn't run into the same. It was a convenience ride for him. Convenience ride for him. Okay. She dropped you off. my mom yeah she dropped off we spent one night she spent one night and she drove back and I was here and you had a blind assignment then or did this guy room with you no actually there was another guy from Ocala who was coming up and we room together what was that what dorm did you go to in Glenn you went we're in Glenn and we're in one of those I don't know if you know about Glenn but it had two room suites at that time so you had to go through one dorm room to get to your dorm room and but there was no bathroom there I mean it's not like sweets today and there was no telephones to speak of either no down the hall yeah and gun I mean it was one of the newer dorms depending on if you were talking about when the first ones were built right and it was not modern it was a very big it didn't have huge dorm they didn't have air conditioning Air conditioning? 

Yeah, nobody had even heard about that up here, no. Yeah. 

So, and it was summertime when you came. 

Now, did you come early enough that you went to the orientation that they had at camp? 

Yeah. Okay. Went to the freshman camp. Which was probably where? 

Lake Louise in Toccoa. It was up in Toccoa, okay. And it was pretty cold. Oh, really? 

It was. 

Well, it was September because we were different systems. Yeah, we were on the quarter system, so it started later. 

So it was about this time of the year, and it's actually like the temperatures we had a week or so ago. At night, it's cold, yeah. Yeah, it was cold up there. It's a cool camp, though. 

I mean, and there were upperclassmen there to tell you all about what you were going to be experiencing. And you learned all the songs. And a lot of the main thrust of it all was look to your left and look to your right. 

Did it prove to be true in your case? 

Did you start out with a big class that ended up not being that big? 

I know for a fact that's a case. I'm sure it was, you know. Did the roommate that you start with finish? 

Yeah, Butch Futch from Ocala. He did graduate. He did graduate. 

Okay, well, good. 

So you guys were having a room. Did you room the whole time with him? 

No, we roomed for one quarter. Okay. And we both then moved over to Harris dorm. 

But not together? 

Not together, no. he moved in with a pledge brother of his and I just moved into a dorm room you know we both decided we didn't want a room together anymore for no big reason we just had gone in different directions and that it was such a you had that Glenn was so big and everything so we moved over to Harris older dorm lots of lots of funny stories about Harris dorms or the older dorms and we just kind of we were down the hall from each other well now when you came back from the camp yeah you did not I mean they pretty much told you what your classes were gonna be every oh yeah freshman we're gonna take these core classes right we're gonna be lined all right did anyone tell you that they might be challenging did No, they all said, oh, you're going to flunk out. Oh, you did hear that. 

Oh, you heard it from the upperclassmen, and you heard the one on the left, one on the right, all that sort of stuff. 

Well, you did hear about it, and unfortunately it was true. Even though the warnings were given, it was still a true story. Right. 

So you went to all your classes, and you probably had maybe chemistry, maybe calculus. I had math. Was it calculus? 

No, they didn't let you start in calculus. Really? 

So no matter what you had had in high school, they didn't start doing calculus. At least nobody I knew did. Earlier days, they said. It was a college algebra class. Chemistry, and somehow I got ****** into an honors chemistry with no benefit. You know, I didn't get it. It wasn't shorter or anything. Dr. Sherry, Peter Sherry. And the whole class was about nuclear physics instead of chemistry. 

But he was a good professor. Oh, he's great. He's got a good reputation. He was really good. He was really good. 

I had English with a lady who they had brought up from being a high school English teacher, and they brought her in to teach exposition, the first English course. In 61? 

In 61. There was only two women there. 

Blickstein and Sally Jackson does do either of those right or did you have a temp an instructor maybe I'm wondering oh she's probably an instructor she wasn't very few women teaching right she was teaching that exposition class that gave me fits absolute fits and because we I know I've interviewed both Edith and Sally and neither one of them. There was some lady teaching first quarter English. Exposition as they call it. First quarter was exposition, second quarter was argumentation. 

Now as it turns out that when you came in September of 1961, well you didn't realize that when you accepted and registered and everything, it was the year of integration. That's right. 

I had a black student in my german class you were one of the few that ever saw him there were three young men that came in yeah um but what was really tricky about that particular quarter was dr harrison who was the president at that time had mandated that everybody would take 21 hours oh yeah because he wanted to be sure everyone was busy he had he had sons of his own yeah he said oh i will just make it mandatory 21 hours and then they won't have time to make any fuss that's for sure and that worked didn't it yeah you didn't have time to make any fuss did you and i was swimming too oh you came right in swimming oh yeah did they give you a swimming scholarship no you just went out for swimming yeah just went out and fred was not here because he was in puerto rico teaching ground proofing so was it was it the who was your instructor then the coach yeah was it Herb McCauley no so you had somebody somebody else I don't know Herb was there but why he wasn't the coach I have no idea I didn't know we had it was some it was some other PE instructor that Fred had said you're gonna be the coach while I'm gone the guy didn't know anything about swimming coaching at all to speak of, and a student, could have been a graduate student, who had been a swimmer, ended up doing most of the coaching for us. That doesn't surprise me about the student, but I didn't even know we had an interim coach. Yeah, an interim coach. Other than Herb McCullough. It wasn't Herb. Isn't that funny? 

And then it all began. Right. 

So here you are, a nice boy from Florida, over there in a dormitory with all these freshmen, 21 hours. That is a heavy schedule. 

Pretty much there wasn't very much time at all because clearly you found out right away that you were really expected to apply yourself. Sure. 

Did you know how to study? 

Or did everything in high school come pretty easy? 

I guess the thing that I had studied the most in high school was Spanish. really yeah because that somehow didn't come naturally to me no that doesn't come naturally and but everything else came pretty easy so you didn't have to call PSST physics did you ever hear of that physical science study or maybe it's a C physical science study committee and it was a high school physics where they wanted you to deduct all of the physics rules of acceleration etc by doing experiments oh my and uh we were one of the first groups to do it in my high school well that gave you an advantage coming here i know not really the teacher the teacher really didn't know how to teach it because nobody ever figured out what the book was I mean it was way out there there were students that were with you that when you started school here who hadn't even had physics oh yeah didn't have chemistry either because our high schools just didn't have them yeah by that time everybody at least had a 12th grade but ten years before that there were kids coming here who only got out in the 11th grade really really and then that's why the you know the attrition rate was so extreme because what could they possibly know like I've had so many of them tell me they might have all been talking Greek as far as I was concerned I didn't know what they're talking about so I would I've talked with various high school classmates being the webmaster for our class I also write the monthly newsletter you know that's what everybody and I've talked with other people and they say you know really we had it pretty great at Ocala High School because we had really good teachers for that class they didn't know to teach that right well he was a really good teacher but he had just never it was new to him too you know trying to detect and none of us could not a person in the class i mean people who have gotten doctorates and were vice presidents for uh drug companies in chemistry they couldn't pass the test that the pssc sent out for us to take you know it was well it was a good preparation it was good yeah it really it really did because there were things here you just couldn't pass either yeah just the way it was so we stopped this about where you went out for swimming oh yeah so they had tryouts open tryouts anybody could come showed up you know okay i had made contact with fred i guess before i came up here so he kind of knew i was coming yeah okay but that was by that time had you won some recognition in your swimming uh i won a county-wide swimming trophy in marion county i had our relay team had made the finals of the state championships so you had you had already established that was fair i was a fair swimmer what kind of swimming team did fred have here uh not very good so he must have been glad to get some good material uh he wasn't even here so yeah but he was still probably glad you were was he never here while you were here oh yeah for the last three years he was here he just wasn't here the first right right okay so but that became part of your drill too you know they did practice so we practiced every afternoon so that's another thing you added to what you had to get in fact of the you know and i was trying to think what all i took i took chemistry for four hours labs well that one of one of those three hours of class one hour lab three hours of english three hours of German what else did we take there must have been some kind of mathematics oh yeah five hours of math okay and oh military three hours of naval ROTC in 1961 you were obligated to take two years of ROTC and I was That was which one? 

Navy. 

Okay, so you went Navy. Hopefully going to win a NROGC scholarship. Yeah. I quickly busted out of that because I'm colorblind. Oh, wow. Somebody else told me about that how long ago. Did you know it before you came? 

Yeah. You've known it for a long time. 

But I had been accepted physically to go to the Air Force Academy. They had found a way to... Yeah, there's a real discrepancy in that. 

Because the Navy always expects everybody to be a line officer, and you've got to be able to tell red and green. In fact, they gave me a test called a Farnsworth lantern test. And this is a test where there were two lights, a red light. There were three colored lights, red, white, and green. 

And they flip them around and show you two of them at a time, and you're supposed to tell what's on top and bottom. Did about three sequences of that, and he said, you're colorblind. That was it. That was it. And you didn't even, well, you did realize that, you said. I knew it before, yeah. 

So then did they muster you out of Navy, I would say? 

I went out of Navy and went into Air Force. Air Force, yeah. 

But it was still, that took time. Every Thursday you got to get in your uniform and you had to drink. Right, plus you had classes. Oh, yeah, sure you had classes. 

So there was not a whole lot of spare time. Did you rush? 

I rushed. Oh, you had that on top of that. Oh, yeah, and I pledged a fraternity. And after six weeks, de -pledged from that fraternity. because it didn't fit good or you were too busy? 

It didn't fit good. 

Okay, so that was nothing to do with your busy schedule. We don't need to mention who it was or anything else. No, but it just wasn't a busy schedule. It wasn't a matter of being busy, you know. 

Okay, but it's hard here. I mean, there's no doubt. Nobody was saying, oh, poor little guy's coming up here. We want to make it easy for you. Everything was just like in the military, cut and dried. Do it or die. I guess the one thing that allowed me to be reasonably successful is I did my homework. I would never blow off the homework. Oh, yeah, you never could have survived. Even if it was all Sunday afternoon, you're doing... You couldn't have survived if you hadn't done that. Right. And those are the ones that we said, look to your left. It was those that thought there was time to have a party or thought there was time to do... I mean, there was time to have a good time, but it was not during the week when you had obligations. Right, absolutely. And you had to learn that. 

So how did you end up at the end of the first quarter, grade-wise? 

Do you remember? 

There is a time when Georgia Tech humiliates you. 3.3 or something like that. Oh, you were a ****** genius if you were three. I know people who literally are geniuses who were already at 1.9 or barely making it into the... Right, right. 

So many funny stories about that. People who were super smart who just simply didn't... They were so smart in high school, they just didn't know how to really study when it came to college. 

So you did really well. Your parents couldn't have been upset with you at all. Going home for Christmas was a joy. Oh, yeah. Everybody was proud of you. 

Well, you didn't know all of your grades at that point. But, yeah, I mean, it's obvious that I was going to save another quarter. There were a lot of people that were not. Yeah. And a lot of people were surprised they were not. I had a roommate in, I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but a story along that line. I had a roommate in my sophomore year, fall quarter, my freshman year, still in Harris. 

And so we just happened to be thrown together because the guy I was supposed to room with, the housing authority ******* it up and put us in different places. 

So this guy, you know, it was fine. 

But about week six, he says, I'm out of here. He went home. Yeah, there are a lot of people that just really couldn't get the grind. I mean, it is a grind. And there was a general attitude on the part of the faculty that you, you know, you're on your own. You do it. That's supposed to make you grow up. And a lot of those classes turned out to be dusting classes. got rid of chemistry, got rid of a lot of people who didn't have chemistry before because it was another language they didn't understand. 

And the labs that everyone complained about by that time had gotten fairly easy compared to what it had been 20 years before that. The lab never was an issue. It was for some people because they weren't used to it. I had a Dr. Sessions. Have you heard that name before? 

Yes. He was my lab instructor. but it was all part it's all part of a process Georgia Tech is definitely a process it's to teach you how to use your time properly and how to stand on your own two feet and how to become independent how to solve problems how to fix things right I would agree with it yes how to think absolutely how to take it apart find out what was wrong put it back together again and that is a process that once you get the hold of it you have it for the rest of your life for anything you're ever going to do now you pled you um i'm assuming you registered and declared aeronautical engineering right away yeah because that was a pretty trendy one right at that time yeah after sputnik oh yeah yeah there was a lot of people coming in that were going to go to you know they were going to be space travelers That was the deal. You probably had a little more realistic approach of that. And you found out the first year nobody was doing anything they had to do with that anyways. Right. First we're going to see, can you survive? 

Yeah. That's what we're going to see. Yeah. And you did survive the swimming. You liked it. It worked out okay. And that was the old gym, what we call the old Tysman gym. Actually, it was in the Naval Armory. Oh, it wasn't even in the old gym. It was in the Naval Armory? 

Yeah. I didn't even think there was a pool in the Naval Armory. 

Oh, yeah, in the very back of the Naval Armory, right where it backed up to the, what would stands would they be, the end zone stands. The north. Yeah, the north stands. Right now, we are presently in the west stands. Right, the north stands. 

So it was directly across the north stands. We're in the south stands, I should say, not west. We're north, south, and that's north, yeah. I don't remember, that's the old Heisman gym that backed up to the north stands, not the armory. 

I don't think the armory, the armory had a basketball court in it, but I don't believe it did have a pool. 

Okay, well, one of them had a pool in it. It was Heisman, the old Heisman gym. I never called it that. I never heard it called that. 

Well, it's because you were there at a time when it wasn't called that. 

But as time went by, they would say, oh, yeah, that's the old gym, you know. Yeah, sure. And they dedicated it to Heisman because they hadn't named something after him after all that time. Right. 

So that's what happened. And the drills were usually right next to it. There was a drill field over there. A what field? 

Drill field. I have a lot of pictures of you guys in the 40s. Oh, the drill field. Yeah, right across the street there. Yeah. Yeah. Peter's Park there. Yeah, Peter's Park. Sometimes park, sometimes next to the... Yeah. And the band would be over there, too. I mean, it was just an open area, so there was a lot of stuff going on. 

But you really did learn to pay attention to what time you needed to be somewhere. The whistle reminded you, but it was still up to you all entirely. 

There was something rather unique during that time period you were here, besides the fact that we had integrated. 

Did you, and let's talk about that first, there was a meeting in the old gym, which came to the same place, where President Harrison brought everybody in there. 

Were you part of that meeting? 

Do you remember that when he called everybody in? 

Not everybody got it that way, but the word got out from there, that if there was any monkey business, if you were going to be ***** to the kids coming in or if you had any objections to integration, you were going to get booted out. 

Wouldn't you think that would have been during one of the orientation meetings for the people coming in? 

You would have thought, but I bet you didn't get it up there either, did you? 

I don't remember hearing anything about it at all. Some people do. Some people were at that meeting and other people were not. We had an old, old English professor then. His name was Glenn Rainey. He had been around for a long time. He was here in the 20s. Right. And he was the one that was chosen to talk to the faculty. As President Harrison pointed out, he had control over his student body. 

If you misbehave, he could throw your bum out. 

But he had tenured professors that he could not do that with. Get rid of, right. Yeah, and some of them were not happy that there was going to be integration. They were still fighting about the fact women had come in. And God knows you didn't see many women, did you? 

No. They were a handful of them. Fifty. 

Yeah, and yet there were still professors that very much objected to the women being in their classroom and objected to having black students in their classroom. 

And that just drove President Harrison crazy because he had no way to get even with them or no retribution. Right. 

But he didn't have any trouble with you guys at all. Keep you busy. 

If you don't behave, out the door you go. And actually, we don't know of anybody that was thrown out because nobody paid any attention. Right. There's a fellow down in Macon, I always quote him, his name is Paul Wilborn. He said, let the suffering be equal when he let them all come in. Right. He didn't care who was here. Right. Suffering was going to be equal. Right. And he was right. Yeah. It wasn't easy for anybody. No. And you probably never even know this for the most part, women in your class or black in your class. As you said, you had one. I had one in my German class. I don't think I had a single woman in a class. In any class you took. All the way through. most of the women from that time period would have told me that they never saw another woman in the class they were in so there were very few of them around right right but they were here they were here and we had a we had a fraternity sweetheart who was a tech co-ed that was admirable because mostly the guys were horrible to the co-eds oh we had some really choice names yes Yes, you do. And I won't repeat. Yeah, very, very cruel. And some of the boys, guys, when I talk to them will say, geez, we were awful. I don't know why we were such chowderheads. And yet I will point out to you, Pat, that there were a lot of people that married. Oh, yeah, true. You know, that did get married. The girls used to say the odds are good, but the goods are odd. You probably heard that. I never had heard that one. Oh, did you? 

Well, that was addressed towards you, my friend. And so they thought the guys were all weirdos, you know. 

But I know there was a practice called bird-******* where, you know, they would get mad if the co -eds didn't identify they were co-eds because they didn't. I had never heard of that. They wanted to be sure they didn't date a co-ed. 

There was a whole bunch of people that were just showing off, you know, that didn't really want the girls to come in. 

But there was another strange thing then. 

Did you know we had a lion that lived on the campus at that time? 

Do you remember seeing Clifford? 

No. To me, that's astonishing that there was an actual lion living here. He was living in Cloudman Dorm with a football player by the name of Joe Auer. 

Joe was on the team in 61, 2, and 3, and Clifford lived here until he got to be about over 2 years old. 

And then the kids had to write a petition to get him moved out because he was up at night yodeling or whatever his lions do. I think they call it roaring, don't they? 

Yeah, roaring. Keeping everybody awake at night. I had not heard that story at all, and I was here while I... Yeah, well, he was on campus. I have pictures of him over at the college, you know, at what we called the robbery. Did you ever go to the bookstore up there? 

The bookstore? 

Yeah. I went to the bookstore. 

Well, they called it the robbery. I never called it the robbery. You didn't? 

No, that's the name I didn't. 

College Inn, it was called that sometime, but it was the same old bookstore that was behind the tower, you know, adjacent to the tower. Yeah, right. You don't remember them calling it the robbery, huh? 

Well, that's what they used to call it. 

And I have pictures of Clifford, you know, there, and he would appear in different places around campus. Was he pretty tame? 

Obviously he was. Oh, yeah, yeah. He had been here since he was like eight weeks old, so, you know, and he had been tamed. 

But it's still kind of outrageous to have a lion on the campus. Yeah, that is. We've had some strange animals here, but that one takes the cake. 

So I thought I'd ask, because if you had lived in, you know, you were close to Cloudman when you were over at. Where is Cloudman? 

Cloudman is the one that's right next door to Britton Dining Hall. Oh, really? 

Going towards where you were. Huh. 

You would remember it because so many people from the early 60s talked about him to me, so I just thought I'd ask you that. No. I'll send you the video with him in a minute. 

Okay, I'll be interested in seeing that. 

Now tell me about, did you go to football games? 

Oh, yeah. You had classes on Saturday. Oh, yeah. Did you ever have classes on Saturday? 

Oh, absolutely. You did. Yeah. That was part of the drill. When I was in my master's program, I taught classes on Saturday. Did you really? 

Well, we'll get to talking about that in a while. that yeah but two o'clock Saturday afternoon it was game time right and did you go oh yeah to wear your rat hat oh yeah so you were part of the gang I have a picture of you guys sitting over there in 1961 in the east stands with your rat hats on I'll have to send you that picture yeah yeah you can remember being there I can remember being there absolutely do you remember how they used to make you go out there and practice your cheers to the empty stadium No. Did you ever get pulled into that? 

No. I never got into that. A lot of guys have told me stories about that. We'd be out there, and it'd be raining, and we're cheering, and there's nobody even there. Practice, practice, practice. Yeah. We had cheerleaders, but they were not allowed to cheer for football as early as that. They didn't really make a scene until 1964. The cheerleaders I remember were high school kids. Yeah, well, that's because they weren't letting our women be cheerleaders. 

But we had male cheerleaders then, too. 

Now, the Rambling Wreck made its appearance in 1961. That was the first time it came on the campus. I didn't know that. It was at a football game you were at because you just told me you came to all the games. 

So that was the very first time the card came on the campus. 

Okay, well, I didn't know it was the first time. Yeah, it wasn't gold and white. You know, it was kind of a creamy yellow and black and white. You're telling me history I didn't know. And we did have cheerleaders that drove out, rode out on it. There was a few that you would see on that. 

So it was a historic time with integration and plus having a rattling rack for the first time. Bobby Dodd was getting towards the end of his golden years and that he wasn't winning everything. 

How did we do in 1961? 

Do you remember if it was a good year for you? 

Did you enjoy sports? 

Oh, yeah. I mean, I enjoyed it and kept up with it. We lost to LSU. It was a good year for basketball because we had Roger Kaiser. Right, right. Who was a really world -class player, as you remember. He was, he was, yeah. 

So did you go to basketball games, too? 

You never went. 

You never saw the Kaiser in action, huh? 

To be such a basketball fanatic that I am now, it's amazing that I didn't get... Didn't go see that. We had some really good players. Yeah, I had one of them in my chemistry class. Caldwell? 

Jim Caldwell? 

Yeah, Jim Caldwell. Yeah. He was in my freshman chemistry lab, I guess. Big dude. Really a big dude. I mean, you'd look at him and you'd know he had to be doing something. He would be backing up otherwise, because he's a really big guy. It was a good time to be here at Georgia Tech. I mean, there was a lot of stuff going on, but we had fairly good teams. And we had sure -tail parades. And you had sure-tail parades. Did you participate in some of them? 

We went all the way down to five points, I think. Did you really? 

Oh, that was quite a good long haul then. Because I saw the last, it was the same night that the last old trolleys. Oh, the streetcars? 

Streetcars. Did you guys take the trolley thing off the line? 

No. Oh, they used to do that a lot. Oh, yeah. 

But you rode it, you ran, you were with them, rabbin' on and hangin' all the way down there? 

Oh, yeah. Was it to celebrate a victory? 

I don't remember what it was for. That's usually when they happen, too. Yeah, yeah. It was probably your freshman year. Yeah, yeah. Because that's what they would make their freshman year. Right, right. And all of that kind of just went away after that time period. You know, initially it just started going away. T-cuts and other things. The rack courts got to be so vicious that, you know, common sense wrote in. My theory is the fact that in April of 1965, which was before you graduated, the draft laws changed. and it was no longer obligatory for you to take the two years of ROTC. And I think that kind of just changed everything so that guys... I hadn't thought about that, but that's... By the end of the 60s, nobody had to wear a red cap anymore. There was an optional thing, and it got to be where nobody was. 

But they still wear them because I saw it on TV the other night. Only the band wears it. Only the band? 

Yeah, nobody else really. I mean, you might see a strafe. You know, we give them to them at convocation, and you might see someone wearing one. I'd have to go back and look at my rat cap because I have all the scores. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't remember exactly what they were. 

So did you have a job while you were on campus? 

Those first two quarters, where did you go to work? 

Well, not my freshman year. 

Okay, no, not your freshman year, okay. 

So your freshman year, did you maintain that high grade point average? pretty much I didn't finish my freshman year with a high enough grade point to be in the freshman honorary which was a 3-5 but you were still up above us oh yeah yeah I don't know we took this but I had like the 3-6 or 3-7 during winter quarter but then it fell down to 3-2 or something because that spring quarter of my freshman year I joined Lambda Chi so I was now participating in fraternity activities although in the long run usually the fraternity makes you more enthusiastic about keeping the grade point up because that's what the fraternities like you to do did you participate in the homecoming activities you did not belong to a fraternity then not my freshman year I didn't but every year thereafter did you go to the rec parade did you see it so you participated but you just weren't involved in it. Yeah, right, right. Saw the annual teak non-walking wreck. The one with the big stilty legs. They never got it to walk. Yeah, the big stilty legs that never really worked, but they tried every year. They tried every year. Every year, yeah. That was a lot of fun. In fact, that's gotten to be kind of a running joke for them on the years they tried at that. 

So you went home for the summer, and was it to go home and rest and relax, or did your parents think you ought to have a job? 

I had a job with the National Geological Survey. And how did you get that job? 

The lead engineer was the father of a high school classmate of mine. Somebody you knew. Somebody I knew, and my dad knew him and everything. What kind of a job did it turn out to be? 

Boring. Outside? 

Not much. 

Mainly it involved taking one sheet of numbers for a year and by the month, and they would say, okay, this sheet of numbers is wrong by three hundredths of a foot. Recopy it onto a new sheet in India ink. Accurately? 

Accurately by subtracting three hundredths from every number over here. Oh, my God. Talk about boring. Boring. 

So you found out that's not what you wanted to be when you grew up, for sure. I knew right away. 

And also using a planimeter, which is a device that you can move it over an area and compute the area under the curve. Did you have a slide rule that did that? 

No, no. This device did it. That was different than that. Did you have a slide rule? 

Oh, heck, yeah, sure. Did you know how to use it? 

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Pretty smart thing, isn't it? 

Oh, yeah. When you know how to do that. It's a slick device, yeah. I don't have it anymore, but I, you know. 

But you knew what it was. Oh, I knew. It was part of your growing up. We did lots of calculations in aerospace engineering that required that sort of thing. 

When you came back in the fall and you started your second year, were you able to get any AE classes at all? 

Or was that still another year of more classes? 

Oh, it was a year away. Still another year away. 

But you did get a job on campus, you said, when you came back. 

I think, yeah, I think somewhere in that era between my sophomore year and my junior year, it may have been in my junior year, I started lifeguarding at the pool for free swim. 

Okay, that's a good job. Yeah, and I started grading for math professors. That's a good job, too. Yeah. 

And it's nice to have just a little bit of extra money, and it was nice for your parents not to have to always constantly be sending you money. Right. When you came back for your sophomore year, Freddie was here. He was done. He came back. Right, right. 

So was that the first time you were actually meeting him? 

Yeah. Upfront and personal? 

Yeah. You got to know him fairly well. I did. 

What was your first impression of him? 

There used to be an ad about the little old winemaker or something like that, He was a little guy. small. He was a diver at Springfield College. Yeah. And he was a sinker himself. He had trouble floating in the water. I didn't know that. That was the reason that he was invited to create the drown proofing program. Okay. Because he had to find a way himself. To float. Yeah. Yeah. Did anyone ever tell you he had polio? 

I knew that he had a limp. 

But he never talked about that to you? 

No. 

Every once in a while if somebody tells me one thing or another about that i mean we know he did have a limb that he had a withered leg one leg was not the same length right the other one and i've had people exaggerate it to where you would have thought he was a dwarf that had you know cut off at the knee and i know he wasn't that bad because i have pictures of him right but i know people also talked about him being called crankshaft i never heard that name i read it in uh somewhere but i never heard him never heard him we just called him freddie i mean yeah that in itself was unusual that you would call your coach freddie yeah but he let everybody call him oh yeah he did he did that was a common thing but see i picked that up and when i coached swimming six-year-old kids pat they could call you pat oh yeah i i don't see anything really wrong with it because of what you're doing you know it's so physical it's it now Now, what was he like as a coach? 

Honestly? 

Yeah. Not very good. 

So you did better when you had a student assistant or you had Fred? 

Yeah, I did better. I did every bit as well in high school as I did in college. I never got any better. You never got any better. 

So you put that on Freddie that he wasn't a better coach. 

Freddie had a practice that, having become a swimming coach myself later, that I never did understand. And it was, we'll do two time trials. And you don't know for what purpose, why he did that? 

That was his practice. That was it? 

That was it. Huh. He wasn't knocking you guys off then, huh? 

Did you ever have to do drown proofing? 

Yeah. 

Did he teach you that? 

My freshman year, first quarter of my freshman year, I had a drown proofing class under Herb McCauley. Not under Freddie. He was gone. That's right, he was gone that first year. Please understand, I have great affection for Freddie. 

He gave a lot of things to me, and in my video I did for the Hall of Fame, I feel like that I am where I am now in many ways because of Freddie. He gave you things that were not stuff you could put in your pocket, but learning things. Right, absolutely. He taught you things. 

Yeah, and we had a swimmer who went to the finals of the NCAAs, won three sec championships events i mean for me it didn't work i didn't get any better well that kid might have done that without freddie he was six four 220 so i mean he was a pretty good fat swimmer yeah he was a guy named larry kagan there were there are a lot of good swimmers over the years i've never heard anyone tell me that that freddie wasn't a good coach um but i never had anyone tell me they didn't respect him. Oh, I had great respect for him. His practices didn't work for me. Other people, they did. Maybe they did. And they got better. Everybody who took drown -proofing was the better for it, though. Oh, yeah. Everybody. Everybody will tell you that. Yeah. Absolutely. Because if you could do that, you could do anything. You could. 

So you got confidence. And that's, you haven't seen that video I did. No, I have not. 

Because they wouldn't release it but I'm still trying to get a copy of it I'll share that with you because I talk in there about how some things he did for me finding me jobs and things like that ended up me getting my doctorate and things like that he was always looking out for folks he really was he really was he had a heart of gold when it came to disabled people oh yeah he really did and he would teach them at night after hours when the women came to him and said we'd like to learn how to do this then he allowed them to do that without ever getting uh you know permission from the school right um he really did have a heart of gold he didn't like fraternities though not too much you know why no he felt they discriminated against people and they did and they did yeah oh yeah so he was right on the money with that he really was he really was yeah there was a lot of discrimination especially at your time when you were here yeah there was still a lot of racism on the campus there certainly was I mean I've interviewed people from your class who were Jewish who were ostracized women were ostracized I mean it was very hard if you were not a fight but he was funny about middle class man Jewish members of this Larry Kagan was Jewish and there was another guy named Marty Kater who was Jewish and he referred to him as members of the tribe but they couldn't just join your fraternity no no they had they had Jewish fraternities they eat pie and that was the only one I knew of at the time yeah but that was what he meant oh yeah members of the tribe being yeah yeah but the swimming didn't take away from your studies it It was something you enjoyed doing, so you stuck with it. I stuck with it. And you won how many letters in swimming here? 

I lettered all three years I could. 

So that was a good experience for you to have. Oh, yeah, I have no... You have no regrets about that. 

Because his being swimming for Freddie and getting a couple of summer jobs coaching, he picked me to go to do for one of those jobs in Chattanooga and I don't know why after my sophomore year I wasn't but that was good creds for you it was a good thing for you to do well it had gotten me started into managing pools and coaching swimming from there I ended up owning my own swim team here in Atlanta for a year and a half or actually three years because we merged with another team and then I went to Carolina I was the assistant swim coach for four years and all of the experience you had helped you get that position right those are the things that built your bus yeah absolutely yeah so your sophomore year went better than your freshman year in that you joined the fraternity I joined a fraternity member of a fraternity yeah in more social life yeah they relaxed the 21 hour rule so you probably didn't have to take that many classes you may still have but you didn't have to I think I did I still took 20 I think you know but you didn't have to I didn't have to take well no to get an AE degree I mean that's right on oh you were doing for that not because no no nothing to do with that it's just that you had to have that many hours to and you hadn't even started that yeah no no I hadn't even started that. 

But we were taking, you were taking math and physics and English. Who knew it was going to be so hard to prepare to get to be what you wanted to be? 

Right. And it was a grind. It really was. 

But I don't look back upon it as a grind, you know. It's always better when it's over. It is, yeah. Did you have to go through a hazing period with your paternity? 

Oh yeah, yeah. 

So you paid your dues. 

It was a short, nothing like what they're doing now, where some of these things that are going on now. 

It was more physical, keeping us up all night one night, making us do various stupid exercises and clean the house. Did you have the dogs then? 

Not yet. The dogs? 

St. Bernard's were always big at Lambda Chi. I think maybe that might have come after your time. I think it was a little bit later. Yeah. 

Chai was the first one, and I know Dean Dull was involved with Chai, but that might have been 68 to 78. Yeah, I think so. 

So you were out of there. 

Well, you were here with your master's then. 

Well, 67 I was out. Oh, that's right, you were out. 

So let's go back then. 

So you went home for the summer again after the end of your sophomore year. Did you have that same job or did you get a different job? 

No, I didn't go home that summer. Oh, you stayed there. I went to Chattanooga. Ah, you were scared. And coached at the Cumberland Youth Foundation. so how did your parents feel about that well my mother was upset because I didn't call home for two weeks but other than that but was it the whole summer you were there oh yeah she wondered why if you were all right yeah she was used to checking in with them right those were back in the days where we wrote letters home too wasn't yeah right so but you kind of forgot that when you got I got it I got involved you know it happens yeah did your social life pick up then somewhat through the fraternity yeah yeah sure we had musical we had theatrical people come to the campus uh-huh the big dances were still around but a little bit going out but we had things like the kingston trio came and peter paul and mary kingston trio was here during your time i was i was i saw them at their very last concert there was a guy by the name of piano red that used to show up at all the fraternity houses and play the piano even I mean you know even though we were just integrated we were already having some of the better-known ****** performers on the campus and they might have them over at the Coliseum which was relatively new then yeah or behind the library you remember on the big hill behind the library you used to have concerts up there so you didn't take part in all those things no we usually had you know things going on at the fraternity house I did hear go to a concert for les paul and mary ford who were all on tape it wasn't live at all really they just they just pretended yeah i wonder why was it was it outside it was at all what was it outside no it was in the coliseum because one of our fraternity brothers was back there with the tapes isn't that awful they faked it i guess that must have been a practice but yeah i went to we went to see uh valley uh frankie valley this past thing he faked the whole thing too so they're still doing it oh you're talking about now i was gonna say frankie valley couldn't come here no he was here he did he was at over at georgia state oh really yeah i went to a concert when with the frankie valley and the four seasons i don't remember him i don't well maybe maybe i do remember the four seasons there were a lot of groups that were four of yeah that was a big rage at that time did you ever go to the fox theater i did do you remember that as anything special i mean would that have been a big date or wouldn't no i don't know a couple of us went to see um you know the movie bye bye birdie some fraternity brothers and i went to see that um but there were some big name performers that were coming through there i went to see her not at Fox, but at the Lowe's Grand, I went to hear Franti and Teicher. Oh, that's interesting. 

But the big acts were coming through Atlanta, so you had options that you wouldn't have had back in Ocala, Florida. No, absolutely not. You were definitely having opportunities. Oh, yeah, there were a lot more. Did you take advantage of the city? 

Did you enjoy it and go places? 

Yeah. Did you ever go down to Rich's? or go to Macy's? 

Oh, yeah. Not Macy's. Davison's? 

Davison's and Rich's? 

Not Davison's very much, mainly Rich's. Rich's. And that was back when Rich's would take anything back. Yeah, anything. People would get tapes and go make copies and take them back or whatever it was. It was pretty awful. It was pretty bad, yeah. Yeah, it was. It was pretty awful. 

So those were really turning out to be good years for you. Things were really going well. Sure. that when you came back and started your AE program yeah my junior year yeah so you started the AE program and do you remember any of the professors from that time oh yeah once you get into your majors you get to know the professors a little bit the major the the really most meaningful professor me with dr. Gray Robin Gray I know him well oh yeah he was a dear he was he was a great professor. Is he really? 

Yeah, he's still a dear. Okay. He must be 90 years old. He's older than 90 years old. Is he really? 

Yeah, he's in his 90s. 

But he's still doing very well. He's very together, very well. 

Well, that's great. And it's nice to know, you know, that you remember him fondly. Do you ever hear about a math professor, Dr. Neff? 

Oh, yes. I interviewed him. I interviewed Dr. Gray, too. Okay. Yeah, John Neff. Yeah. He was a character in that. He always had a joke to tell. Oh, he was funny. He would do math jokes. Which is pretty amazing when you think about it, huh? 

Yeah, he did one thing. The total nerd who can do math jokes. Imagine that. 

And he was, but he was, he told, I took an advanced class from him that mainly involved cylinders or circles. 

It was partial differential equations and you did a lot of work him and so we did a he did something and it came out that right in the middle of the circle was a null point and and we said well what does that mean he said well let me tell you a story he said I went to visit the Cleveland Orchestra and he said I went up to the timpani the big drum and he asked he said hit it in the middle and the guy said no it won't make any sound that's true it doesn't and so what he had done is to go through a mathematical proof to show that that was a the middle is a null point yeah I'll be darned I never heard that before he was very interesting his biggest claim to fame to me was he was on a ship when the atomic bomb was dropped okay and he saw it and he said no one ever told us to turn away no one ever told us that there was you know radiation they didn't understand you know that at all but he remembered being at sea and actually seeing that happen. 

So he was involved in World War II. 

So is he still alive or not? 

No, he passed away a long time. I hope not from radiation poisoning, but it very well could have been. 

Because you would have thought that the military would have said, well, go to the other side of the ship or don't look directly at it, but they never did. I have a neighbor in our condo who was in the Marines. 

So he's now, he was born in 36, so he's 81, and he went in the marines right out of high school so that was in 55 i guess 56 and he said they went uh saw a nuclear test and they were told well really if this happened you would do something and they were told to take their dog tags off and swing them around above their head to emulate helicopters or something. Oh, for heaven's sakes. Is that bizarre? 

Yeah. I need to get him to tell me again what that's all about. Yeah, that's pretty bizarre. It was pretty bizarre. 

Well, how did you feel about being in your A. E. classes? 

Were they comfortable? 

Were they smaller than your other classes? 

Oh, yeah. They were smaller than the other classes. 

But none of the classes were huge except for physics was really big because I had the honors chemistry. I didn't want anything to do with honors physics because they weren't going to give me any benefit. 

So I just went through the regular physics classes, and they were large. And that was the only time that I actually ever sat in a large lecture class. Really? 

I'm surprised because there were some big ones. I never had them. You never had them. 

But when you got into the A. E. program, you were really part of a very small community of people. You got to know your fellow man fairly well. because there weren't that many of you in there. No, no. 30? 

Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. 

And they could have been, in some of your groups you were in, they could have had them from other classes, too. I mean, they could have been seniors already and still be taking junior classes. I don't... There was some interchange back in the war. Yeah, some interchange. Yeah, they were fun. They were better. 

But I enjoyed the math classes. 

I always wondered if I shouldn't have been a mathematician Since you never turned out to be an astronaut or an aeronautical engineer, we have to wonder about that. I did work as an aero engineer at Lockheed there. 

I can remember people telling me around your time frame how hard it was for them to get out of AE classes. 

I'm thinking specifically of a guy by the name of Hollis Harris, who went on to be the president of many airlines. and he talked about he was an older guy that had come back he'd gone in the military and they got back and you know you didn't they didn't assign your classes by the time you were a junior and a senior but you didn't really have any choice they only had one class available you took it you know but there were but sometimes you needed a class and you couldn't take it for whatever reason right then you'd have to come back and take it at a different time but the the faculty was pretty understanding whereas the first few years nobody cares whether you're right or not by the time you get into your major they kind of care yeah I actually grooming you they want to see your potential I actually my junior year I had a an engineering mechanics course with a professor that I just didn't care for didn't it wasn't working yeah and I dropped the class. 

So you dropped it. You still had to take the class though. I had to take it the next semester but that was a prerequisite for the first structures class in AE. That throws you off see. It was except that the AE professor allowed me to take them at the same time. 

So he was kind. He was kind. 

I think that when you get into majors that's what you found that there were people that were looking assessing whether you had potential. Right. Whether they were going to recommend you to go on for a master's degree or maybe even stay for a Ph. D. Yeah. It was a little fishing thing that was going on. Right. They cared. Yeah. They did care. Yeah. 

When you took the honors chemistry, do you remember what that instructor's name was? 

That was Sherry, Peter Sherry. Oh, Peter Sherry, that's right. Right. 

Did you ever run into Erling Grovenstein? 

You don't remember him? 

He was such a good chem professor. I just wondered if you knew who he was. I had Sherry all the way through for three quarters. And you liked him fine, and he was a very good teacher. Oh, yeah, he was. He was really good. 

So, you know, you're starting to get it wrapped up. 

Now, by the time you get through your junior year, what did you do that summer? 

Well, my junior year was kind of strange because I did very poorly that spring quarter of my junior year. Why? 

Well, I didn't go to Friday classes. Oh, really? 

You thought you weren't going to skip Fridays because what? 

I had other things to do. Ah, important things, though, John. Going to Friday class, I don't know why. I just made up my mind how to go to Friday classes. That was just part of being still a young guy. I guess, you know, and I didn't. And it didn't serve you well. It didn't serve me well at all. No. And I did very poorly in an electrical engineering class. Even though I'd done well all the way through the final, I just blew it, you know. And that was a tough quarter, too, because I took 21 technical hours. All AE, math, nuclear physics, this electrical engine. And you're not going to go to school on Friday. And I'm not going to go to Friday. What were you thinking? 

Not. Not thinking. That's what we call it. 

So I did very poorly, and that actually kept me from graduating with honors, as it turned out. That was a wake-up call for you, too. That was your humiliation. Yeah, right. that I'm going to have to play the game the right way. 

And I had a, you know, I had a, they had a professor come in from industry to teach a structures class. And I just couldn't figure out what that guy that was talking about, you know. Didn't get it, huh? 

Didn't get it. Plus, not going to Friday class didn't help either. No, I really think that did not serve you well. 

So that was a, that summer, did you take a summer job? 

I did. I worked out in Doraville at a swim club. Again, you didn't go home for your mom? 

No, no. She was getting used to it by the time. Oh, she was used to it by the time, yeah. Yeah. And you're starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. You're going to get out on time in four years. 

Well, actually, what I did, because I dropped that class, is that I took, and I wanted to get ahead a little bit, as I went to summer school that summer. Here? 

Here. It took nine hours. 

So you took a couple of classes? 

I took an economic history class. I took a class in technical writing. You're one other six hours or nine hours. 

I was just trying to get some credits ahead I was trying to catch up for dropping that that structures class and to get ahead for when I would senior year because In AE you've probably heard you had a design class Senior project senior project. Yeah, and so big deal, too. 

Oh Yeah, did you have to do it with a group was it a project? 

No, it was just a fraternity brother of mine named Tom Pepitone and I were both AEEs. 

So there was just two of you? 

Just the two of us, and we designed a supersonic transport. And it took everything you had time-wise to do it. Oh, yeah. We just worked on that thing all the time. It was a sweat. Yeah. It's even harder today. I mean, I just can't even believe how hard it is, the pressure that comes on there. Right, right. It got that all up. Of course, you know, we had no computers. You're doing everything with essentially a 99-key Marshawn calculator and a slide rule. And you're drawing everything by hand. 

So, I mean, it was a challenge. It was a very challenging class, yeah. And they expected it to be professional. They expected it to be something worthy. Right. And if it wasn't, then you were dead. You didn't have a chance to do it over again without staying longer. Right. Right. I mean, but I don't think anybody ever failed that class. Were you thinking about getting out, though? 

Sure. 

As a senior year, were you thinking, I'm going to get out because I've done this long enough now, I want to get out of here? 

Oh, yeah. I knew that I, well. 

What did you think you wanted to do? 

Well, I pretty well decided I didn't want to be an aerospace engineer. Uh-huh. 

But too late to go back and get a different major. Right. 

I actually thought about getting a different major at the end of my junior year, but I figured it's going to take so much longer. You figured, right. I'll stay with it. Yeah, it'll put you through another year. Yeah, and so I had already made plans to go into the Master of Industrial Management program. Oh, you already had made your plan by junior year? 

No, by senior year. By your senior year. By senior year, I decided that's what I wanted to do. 

Okay, so that made you... I went through the hiring process and talked to the various companies. Did you go through the career services one day? 

Oh, yeah, sure. I had my goal sheet and everything. Oh, you did? 

Oh, yeah. Did the whole bit. Did you go visit any places? 

No. No. 

But you did talk to recruiters. I talked to recruiters. And got the feeling that maybe you didn't want to be an AE engineer. Right. I did. I decided I didn't want to. 

So the best the next day. 

By that time, I was, you know, thinking about being a, you know, that maybe I wanted to go to the managerial route. 

But you hadn't thought about teaching yet. Oh, no. No? 

No, no. My dad had said, you don't want to be a teacher. Oh, your father had told that to you all the time. You'll never get rich if you're a teacher. That's right. Oh, yeah. 

So that never even crossed your mind. No. 

But you did know you could go on and sign up for a master's program. 

So you did know you were going to come back to school then. Oh, yeah, yeah. 

Okay, so when you left that summer, you actually completed all your A. E. credits? 

Oh, yeah, I graduated on time. On time. Went through June graduation. You were close to making an honors thing, but not quite. I think I missed honors by, I think I graduated with a 3.149. And there are people who would have killed for that, you know. You know, I could have done better. I should have gone to class on Friday. 

I don't know what they say, youth is wasted on the young, so what are you going to do? 

Did the family all come for your graduation? 

Oh, yeah. Your sister, too? 

Oh, yeah. We had the graduation in the Fox, yeah. And it's a big deal. Oh, yeah. You really do feel like you're pretty important. Because everybody gets to walk across stage and get a diploma, which they don't do anymore. And you were somebody. Yeah. You had finished Georgia Tech. That made you somebody. You were beginning to realize that everybody can't do that, but you did do it. I never thought about that. Didn't you? 

Oh, boy. I did not think about, you know. That didn't occur to you? 

You weren't as overproud of yourself? 

No, no, no. It takes a while maybe for the process. I don't know. 

But you were going to go right back to school. 

But the summer was going to be what? 

I worked for DeKalb County as their swimming coordinator. 

Well, that's an interesting title. 

Which means that I was the assistant coach for the DeKalb Dynamos, which is a swim team that still goes on, the Dynamos. That's a swim club. Swim club. Yeah, there's one right near my house. Yeah, the Dynamos. 

So that's coordinated through the county? 

Well, that originally was coordinated through the county. The administrative assistant to Brent Manning Sr. was also the swimming coach for Sandy Springs Swimming Association. 

And when he got the job as administrative coordinator, he managed to use that to create the DeKalb Dynamos, which were sponsored by DeKalb County at that time. And he hired me, who I'd met at the Jewish Community Center when I was lifeguarding there. That was another job I did. You had another job there. I lifeguarded the Jewish Community Center. And he hired me to be his assistant and to create the DeKalb Atlanta Swim League. Good. From whole club. 

So, see, that would look really good on your resume that you were doing all of those things. I never used that anywhere. You didn't? 

No. Not to get your job as a swim coach, assistant swim coach? 

I mean, that's really good experience. 

Well, but that came from starting my own team and merging that with another team here. 

But that's what I did the summer of 65. Who was paying for you to go to graduate school? 

Me. In fact, I paid my way through school starting my junior year. 

Did you really? 

You could make enough money in your part -time jobs to do that? 

I made $1,500 a summer between my sophomore and junior year at the Cumberland Youth Foundation. And I must have had maybe 1,200 of it left at the end of the summer. The thing is, too, is school was pretty cheap back in those days. It was. It was $350 a quarter. Yeah. Out of state. Just imagine. Yeah. Talk about inflation in education, huh? 

It ain't that way anymore. No, it didn't, it didn't. Wow, wow. 

So you were, everybody else was getting out of school and celebrating getting out, and you knew you were coming right back again. Right, yeah. And I came back and I was an instructor, right off the bat. Teaching assistant? 

Teaching, no, I actually was teaching classes. Oh, they gave you full instructor? 

Two classes. Really? 

Two five-hour classes. What, math classes? 

Two three-hour classes. No statistics. I hated that class. Yeah. 

So you were teaching two statistics courses. Uh-huh. How did you get that job? 

Well, it was a teaching assistantship is what it was. 

Well, that I can understand, but I didn't know you could get an instructorship. That's what they had me doing. 

Well, that's what you were doing, but did they actually call you an instructor and put you on the payroll as an instructor? 

I was on the payroll. Not as a teaching assistant? 

I was a graduate teaching assistant. Yeah, that sounds more reasonable. Graduate teaching instructor. I don't know what the title was. 

But I taught. Were you living in the dorm? still? 

No, I was living in the fraternity house. I had lived there since second quarter of my sophomore year. Really? 

Well, you didn't tell me that. Oh, you did live in the fraternity house. Oh, yeah. I lived in the fraternity house up until all the way through undergraduate. 

First two quarters of my graduate career, I lived in an apartment over on some street off of Piedmont there Oregon Avenue so you must have had a car by then oh yeah I'd had a car since sometime in my sophomore year and you didn't even mention it now where did you get a car were your parents good on my dad bought me the first one and then after that I said the worst car ever made a 1960 Ford Fairlane it wasn't very old no but it was terrible well you're not going to do commercials for Ford obviously. 

But where did I go from there? 

I went from the Ford Fairlane to a Corvair Monza to an Austin Healey Sprite to a Tempest Sprint. Just in those four or five years? 

Yeah. 

You were a big turnover in cars weren't you? 

Yeah yeah I mean I was paying for him so why shouldn't i you know so you come back that summer you you were swimming and doing all the things i was making money man i was creating the dekab atlanta swim league 24 swim teams from the cab and atlanta cat creating the whole formation of the league and it existed until maybe 15 years ago and they ran into a legal problem and they they brought it into another league but in fact i'm working with a a person here in atlanta to come up with the history of that league when you came back to school yeah it was a different experience it wasn't like being an undergraduate being a graduate student is a very different experience here not only that you were teaching assistant right established so you had some quote from that sure um that was your first dip into teaching it was and what did you think about it how did you i thought it was it's fine and and you weren't telling yourself i don't want to get used to this because dad said it's not a good thing well you know it was a way of getting this this master's degree that i thought i was going to then use to well you don't have to pay tuition if you're an assistant didn't pay no i did not have to pay tuition uh and i got you know paid to teach to teach and i covered your living expenses yeah yeah so it's good but i was also still working for the dekab dekab dynamos i was coaching that at night at night and on the weekends probably not on weekends but at night four nights a week and they swam at the jewish community center i was lifeguarding at the jewish And teaching, too. 

So you had a pretty busy life. Just the way it was, you know. 

And you had moved out of the fraternity by that time? 

For six months, I moved into an apartment over on Argonne Avenue. After those six months, I moved back into the fraternity house. 

So they even let you go back even though you were in graduate school? 

Right. Oh, I didn't know you could do that. I thought it was only for undergraduates. No. And where was it? 

Where was the fraternity house at that time? 792 Techwood Drive. 

So right where it is now. Yeah. That same corner. They've been through various iterations of the house and everything. 

But at the same location. Same location. And graduate school, of course, at that time, management school was on campus. Right. Across from... Right next to the library. 

Next to the library? 

The library was, if you go up the hill and then turn to go that way, the library was right here and the business school was right there. 

So it was in the Skiles building? i don't know what the name of the building was that must be but if you go straight up the hill if you kept going you'd run right into it that's the scow building okay yeah i didn't realize that management took a stint there they did have a building over sort of kind of over across the street from where the campus recreation is which at that time was not called that but you know recreation center was right if you went right across the street into facing it to the right that was the management building right so it wasn't very fire everything was right here right so it was still everything was close and you know you were taking only 12 hours instead of 20 hours and it was relatively easier material you didn't have any trouble putting up class schedules agendas syllabuses all that was new for you but you didn't have any trouble with that no I didn't I never thought about it but you know I guess I got some help in getting started but uh what did you think of the students you had um were you teaching lower level classes i mean well it was a it was a stat class i mean it's like a junior senior level class oh really yeah what did you think of the kids they were fine you know then you didn't have any trouble with them now no a lot of students that are alumni that you talked to that had student assistance would trash student assistants because they didn't pay attention or they weren't as good as them. Oh, okay. 

You didn't have that experience? 

Actually, I had one of the most meaningful experiences of my entire teaching career. What was it? 

Let's say in the fall, I taught the intro stat class. 

The next quarter, I taught the second level stat class. 

And a bunch of students who had had me the fall signed up and we're in my winter class and I walked in I got a round of applause oh now that's pretty cool that should have told you you were going to have a future in that business and I didn't think about it but that was yeah so that was a cool experience never happened again but it did that time I'm glad you had that experience yeah and and who were the professors that you were working with at that time who was I mentioned to you beforehand that and I was pretty sure Phil Adler was around somewhere. He was there, yeah. He would have been teaching undergraduates. Did you get to know him? 

Let me think. What was the name? 

His kid swam from Kearney, Bob Kearney. Oh, Bob Kearney. I remember Professor Kearney. 

He was teaching with you then at that time? 

He gave me a, I got a bad grade from him in his case course. I couldn't write a case for him. 

And then you came back and you were his colleague, huh? 

Yeah, well, actually, you know, it was all at the same time. 

But, you know, you didn't, just because I was teaching a stat class didn't mean I was a colleague with these guys. Oh, he wasn't giving you that standard? 

No, no, no. 

But I knew him because his kids were on the swim team I was coaching. Yeah. He thought he'd cut you a little slack. No, he didn't cut slack. 

Now, did you get to know Phil Adler? 

Not much, no. He is one of the more memorable, if you were a management major. I remember him. I didn't have him for a class. 

No, but I mean, if you had, if you had been a management major and an undergraduate, you would either hate him or you would love him. 

And the ones that love him, I mean really hero worship him and will tell me that they use everything he teaches them to this day. Wow. 

So he's a legend. He's become a legend at Georgia Tech with that kind of teaching. You mentioned that someone came from Chicago. Alex Orden. And O-R-D -E-N? 

O-R-D-E-N. 

He was one of the pioneers of the field that is now a major part of ISYE, systems engineering, the operations research side. Oh, okay. That, he was a founder of that area. 

But he was teaching as part of the management team? 

He came down from Chicago for one quarter. quarter and taught one class or two classes. Oh, that's all? 

That's all. He was a teaching, a visiting professor. And did you take his class? 

I took his class, absolutely. And you felt like it was a real value for you? 

Oh, yeah, sure. He only stayed one quarter, huh? 

As far as I know, you know. Did that happen from time to time? 

That someone came in from the outside? 

I don't know. 

During your time here at Techville six years? 

Was there ever any other outstanding professor that came? 

No, not really no you don't remember anything when you were at in the aeronautical did you ever I I'm getting mixed up on dates but did you ever know Don Dutton yeah he was the dean wasn't he yes but I didn't know if he was there when you were there yeah yeah Dutton was there sure because he's very renowned Dutton and Gray and one other professor that I cannot remember his class but he taught a lot about actually how airplanes fly you know it was no theory to it it was just this is the basic thing yeah yeah yeah right by the time you came montgomery knight was long gone so you never knew but you had people in your class that went on to become astronauts in 61 to 65 yeah who richard truly i think was one of them wasn't he i don't remember i don't remember i don't remember now I better not say that I thought maybe he may have graduated just before you came you know he went on to become an astronaut right the director of NASA yeah and eventually vice president here right here eyes yeah I've seen the name but I don't know I don't remember him from my class I better not say anything else because I think the Gil Emilio oh yeah he went on to became very well known too. Do you remember him? 

He got fired at Apple. Yeah, but he's surprised above that. Yeah, yeah. He was in physics. He was in my first fraternity, but the one I dropped out of, I knew him from there. 

And he went on to become CEO of National Semiconductor, and then he went to Apple, and I don't know what he's doing now. 

Well, he wrote a lot of books, and he became very famous we don't have to feel sorry I don't there were a lot of very people who were very successful mm-hmm during that time a lot of people from the 60s were very successful that went on to careers that you know yeah started companies and did all kinds of things so you were you were in fast company yeah pretty much in fast company did the two years fly by oh yeah yeah especially after I met my future wife in February of my second year. And how did you meet her? 

Her roommate introduced us. How did you know her roommate? 

I had dated another girl at that nursing school. Oh, from the nursing school? 

From the nursing school, yeah. St. Joseph's? 

Her roommate introduced us, St. Joseph's, yeah. And so, yeah, it flew by. 

And I was, and by that actually by the end of my first year in graduate school I had started my own swim team so I was doing coaching this my own swim club what age group seven eight on up to about 12 or 13 mainly young kids in my all my team and so I was doing that and lifeguarding and teaching and so the water was still a big part of your life yeah it has been all my life and then teaching yeah and you were getting ready you met Carolyn in February graduated where I graduated and she graduated and I graduated in June she graduated in July and we got married in August so you had a short course of relatively speaking several months. Yeah. Yeah. And where'd you get married? 

In Franklin, North Carolina. Was that where Carolyn was from? 

Yeah, that's where she was from. I was going to say, because that wasn't where you were from. No. No. And that all worked out just fine. Thank you very much. It has. 50 years, right? 

Absolutely. 

So we know that. That was 50 years ago. 

Now, when you got out of tech the second time, you got your degree, what was your plan? 

What did you think you were going to do? 

I know what you did, but what did you think you were going to do I thought I was going to go to work for some firm you know in the managerial ranks you weren't really looking towards any kind of aeronautical job at all yeah and you weren't looking for a teaching job specifically either you were looking for a management job and yet you ended up being a teacher how did that happen well I had this group of swimmers is these families that I felt you get to know them really I get to know extremely well and I felt some allegiance to them and so I got a teaching job at Lovett High School teaching math you heard about it and yeah I heard about it and interviewed and it was an option for you yeah right yeah so I could continue to work with this one work with the swim team and for one year taught for one year and That's a parochial school, so it's a little, isn't it? 

A private school, I mean. Episcopal. It used to be Episcopal. I don't know if it still is. 

But it was a private school. Private school, yeah. And pretty high-level school. I mean, it was an expensive school. 

It was high-level, expensive, but the academics weren't there because they were still trying to catch up. It cost more to go there than at high school than it did to go to Georgia Tech. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. 

So it was people that were more affluent. 

Yeah, I mean, the original owner, the falcon sun went there yeah you know so there you are teaching and you liked it right but but it's no way to make a living but well no but it was more of a i just you know decided i needed to try out the engineering so i went to work for lockheed so that's the reason you got that job there as you thought you needed well to yourself to give it a shot yeah how long did you stay Till May. Not even a whole year. 

Well, I decided I wanted to go ahead and get my doctorate, and so I quit in May and managed a swimming pool and continued to coach before I took off to go to Chapel Hill to go to graduate school. 

So you and Carolyn moved together up to Chapel Hill? 

We had our first child in the end of August, and we moved to Chapel Hill about two weeks later. 

So, in a way, you were kind of doing what your mom and dad had done. Carolyn got a job and had a young child, and you went to school. Went to school. 

But did you have some jobs up there, too? 

I was the assistant swim coach. 

Well, that was a coup, wasn't it, to get that job? 

And I was a graduate instructor, once again. 

But I didn't have to teach until, like, my fourth year. I actually was a research assistant most of that time. Really? 

Was that interesting to you? 

Yeah, sure. 

It was part of right along what I was learning while I was learning about it while I was also going to classes. Was your goal when you decided to go for the Ph. D. because you were going to become a college professor? 

Yes, absolutely. By that time, you had realized that's really what you wanted to do. Right. I had enjoyed it so much at Tech that I thought I would go on to graduate school. Yeah. 

And did you choose Chapel Hill because that's where Carolyn's family was from? 

North Carolina? 

No. 

Why did you choose Chapel Hill? 

Well, of the schools that I was looking into, it was, in my mind, absolutely the best. I looked at Alabama, I looked at NC State, I looked at Georgia State, and Chapel Hill. 

You didn't look up towards, like, Pennsylvania to wharton college or no harvard or any of those schools you know instead you chose a regular university life right and so i uh it worked out that chapel hill you know i could continue to be a swimming coach which i that's really enjoyed pursuing and also and it paid part it paid my some of my tuition and i got an assistantship and so you could manage and did you keep in touch with Freddie LaNue once you left? 

Well, he died. 65, that's right. He died. Do you remember that? 

I remember it quite well. 

Were you here in school when the announcement was made? 

It was in the summertime? 

No, it was in March. March? 

I was home for spring break. 

So you weren't here at school when you heard? 

No. 

So you came back to school and someone told you? 

No, I got a phone call down in Ocala. A friend, a classmate or a teammate called me and said that. That Freddie had died at Parris Island. Right. 

So none of you kids went to the funeral then? 

There was no funeral here in Atlanta? 

There was, I guess, but I don't know anybody that went. I didn't... I wondered about that. The season was over, and I was getting ready to graduate and taking new classes and everything. I just kind of drifted away from the rest of the swimmers. In fact, I have not... I have seen one swimmer since I graduated. That you were on the team with? 

No, they were on the team with. 

I just wondered, because I remember now that it was in March, but I never heard anything about any kind of memorial service. It was like he was here one day and then he was gone, and that was the end of it. 

And it seemed, for the impact he had on so many people, I wondered why there was never a memorial service. I don't know. Why nothing has ever been named for him here. 

When you called me about nominating him for the Hall of Fame, I thought, you mean he's not in that? 

I would have thought he would have been in there before Herb. Right. He should have been. He should have been. Oh, yeah. It just seemed like he was... Because Herb was a protege of his. Right. What came first, Freddie. Right, right. Freddie was the beginning. He was the, you know, the alpha of that. Right. I just feel very taken aback, you know, looking at it, that he was never recognized here at Tech. 

But you don't know any reason why that was. It's just the way it happened, huh? 

He was very popular with the administration. Yeah, I know. I mean, I know Dean Griffin, you know, loved him dearly. Oh, yeah. I don't know. It's a good question. You have no answer. I don't even know why I thought about it. I got an email about the Hall of Fame, and I said, ****. There's no Freddie in there. There's no Freddie. 

And I look back, and it's really strange, Marilyn, But I wrote an email just to the Hall of Fame committee, and the person that got back to me was one of my swimmers from here in Atlanta. 

So you knew the name. 

Well, he was a 7-year-old swimmer when I was coaching here in Atlanta. Oh, my gosh, and here he was at an adult. He now is on the Hall of Fame committee. That's what we call a small world thing. 

And another guy that I coached at high school here in Atlanta, I coached Marist High School for a year or two, who also went to Carolina, so I coached him there, is on that same committee. 

So, you know, I... You had the deck stacked there. I had the deck stacked, right. That's all you know. Lucky for Freddie then. That's partially what you mean. No, it was well-deserved for a long term ago. It was way overdue. Long time. Did they ever say that at the awards ceremony, this way overdue? 

No. Nobody ever said that. 

But we all know that it was way overdue. Right, right. And it's kind of sad that there was nobody from the family to even recognize that. They've disappeared. They really have. 

Well, let's get back to your life now. Okay. 

So you graduated in, you were there for what, four or five years? 

In Carolina? 

Yeah. For four years. Four years. And our second child, our son, was born right before I graduated. And I was coaching the college team and also the Chapel Hill Swim Club while I was there. You kept very, very busy, that's for sure. And when you got your degree, you were interested in going into the profession. You were going to be a college professor. That's right. That's what was on your mind. 

Do you remember what your dissertation was about? 

What was your interest? 

It's, yeah, it's a vertex ranking for fixed charge problems. I don't have a clue what that means. Resource allocation. Resource allocation issues where there are fixed charges. 

In other words, instead of saying it'll be $10 for one, $100 for 10, it would be $10 for one plus $100, or $100 for 10 plus $100, the fixed charge. 

So how do you allocate resources in such a way as to minimize cost when you have both variable cost and fixed cost? 

Did you publish your dissertation? 

Yeah. Not my dissertation, a paper from it. A paper from it. Yeah. Okay. 

How did you get the job that you got? 

Well, the first job that I started was up in Albany, New York. Right. which I never planned to go to. That was a real surprise. 

And that's why I wonder, how did you get that job? 

Did you go to a conference or advertise? 

No, there was a... 

And the paper, what? 

Before there was the Internet in 73, an association, and I can't even remember what the name of the association was. An education association. An education association. Published the list of positions in my field, which would be called management science. And so there was, and I also just blind wrote letters to university. Is my, come to my attention that you may have a position. You were fishing for something. I was fishing, yeah. SUNY is a very well -known school. It's got a great reputation. Yeah. 

But it's way cold. It's way cold. Yeah, it's way cold. And so after three years, a fairly happy three years, we skied. 

So you took advantage of where you were. Took advantage of, yeah. And I understood that a position was open at the University of Georgia. And I said, oh, my God, can I go to the University of Georgia? 

Well, I'm going to check into it. And I came down, I interviewed, and I was offered the position. And they knew you had graduated from Georgia Tech. They knew I graduated from Georgia Tech, right. 

But they're not as parochial at the professorial level as they are at the undergraduate level. It only matters on the football field every year. That's right, that's right. It's the only time anybody can do it. And so I got the job, and I'll have to share with you a comment I made. I said, you know, I don't know if I can go down there and cheer for the dogs. and my wife said after living here for three years i sure can about albany yeah going down here what was the name of the school where was sun suny albany i thought it was suny albany oh my god they get so much snow up there actually it's really bad when it comes up yeah when it comes up the hudson river when you get a northeaster it is really bad it's it's beyond cold yeah and I know they have great amounts of snow not as bad as Buffalo but it's a lovely campus it's really pretty and yeah it was a nice place we enjoyed it we you know you chalk that up as an experience and you don't need to live in the north anymore right so we came to Athens in 1976 and I was there I retired in 2003 that's a long run in the last four years I was the department head of the new MIS department. What is MIS? 

Management Information Systems. 

Okay, so that's exactly what your specialty was. All right, now let's go back to when you got there. Okay. You were hired as an assistant? 

Sure. A professor. 

Is it safe for me to assume that over time you went from assistant to associate and then eventually to professor? 

Yes. That's the usual graduation. Right, yeah, right. 

I know I've talked to other people who've made a living this way, and I read your biography that you had and you commented that one of the side effects that you had never, not side effects, but perks that you had never even thought about when you become a professor is the privilege of traveling all over the world. It is. It absolutely is. Your father was a high school teacher and that's not the same thing at all. Oh, no, no. That's not the same thing at all. No. We, for example, I got to go to Lyon, France. 

Was that your first assignment, your first abroad one? 

That was, yeah, my first teaching abroad was in Lyon in 93. 

It's amazing, isn't it? 

It opens your eyes right up to how different the world can be and how much you can learn something. And then I taught in, I got a Fulbright to teach in Lisbon, Portugal for three months. Another great place to live. Yeah, at the Catholic University of Lisbon. 

When you go, did you take the family with you? 

Were you able to ever take the family with you? 

Well, by the time that I started doing that, they had all left home. 

Well, Caroline didn't go anywhere. 

Well, she's going. 

Well, that's what I'm asking you. She's your family. Oh, absolutely. 

So she got the good fortune to go with you. 

Yeah, and she actually, to some extent gave up the opportunity to have a full -time career in order to be able to travel when it was time when it was possible you got there in 76 but you didn't start traveling for another 15 or 18 years yeah right it just wasn't you know the opportunities weren't there so you settle into a community a faculty settles into the community I'm assuming you live somewhere not very far from we lived out in Watkinsville yeah for the first first 10 years yeah And that's very typical. That's a pattern. It's a great little community. It's very artsy. They're always having pottery. It's grown into that. 

When we were there, it was still very rural, very agricultural. They have a lot of nurseries and things there, so I'm familiar with that place. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's really... Oconee County, that whole area just bloomed. 

But it's kind of a small town. Yeah, it is. 

Even though the university is humongous and way bigger than Georgia Tech, the community around it still feels like small town oh it is it is so you move into that kind of a community after having lived in you know the north and big cities and everything and you settle down you settle down you send your kids to school right you go to school yeah settle into your position grow your whiskers so that you know you get some respect and you have to publish so you're doing research all the time right sure doing research that's part of the you know it's service teaching and research yeah and if you're not doing the research then you're not growing and then they're not you're not gonna stay yeah and the whole idea once you found out that you were comfortable is to get tenure right so I imagine you started on a tenure path fairly early yes I did I was promoted to associate professor with tenure after I'd been there two years that's very quick I had the three years before so after a five-year period I was promoted and then after another five years I made full professor. 

That's really good you were fast-tracking and you were comfortable with that's where you wanted what oh yeah we looked we looked at the University of Alabama and I was offered a position at the University of Alabama in to start a program similar to what we had at Georgia and we went over made a couple of trips over there and decided that for us it just didn't feel right right people don't realize it but but at that time it was quite a bit smaller than the University of Georgia and they were combining like three departments into one to do this kind of stuff and it was we thought about it thought long and hard it was going to be a nice raise and everything but I said no I don't want to just and that's wonderful when you can make that choice right to have the leverage to be able to say that's not what I want to do right and do what you want to do but once you pay your dues and you're there long enough and you've been published and you've got some authority in the field the invitations to go abroad yeah our gravy yeah it's a wonderful option you go and you get a lot of respect because they do respect. Right. In other countries, there's high regard for professors. And you get to meet people from all over the world. Oh, that was a wonderful experience. 

Living in Lyon for two weeks, living in Portugal for three months, living in New Zealand for four and a half months. Those are experiences you can just never... 

Yeah, and they're long enough for you to actually have personal contact with people to see how their life goes, to kind of stop and take measure of what's going on around you that's absolutely the case yeah yeah and it's such a privilege it really is I understand that's just wonderful how did you make the decision you were ready to retire my dad had retired at 60 and had died at 72 and so I had always kind of planned ahead and thought about 60 is my that was your mark that was my mark that's not the government's mark no that was my mark and so I was it was I was you know last year and started making plans and figured out that we could do it you know and so I pulled the plug even before Social Security and everything else. 

Well, no, that's right. 

But the nice, they're really, they're really, I mean, let's face it, the state of Georgia has a wonderful teacher's retirement system. 

If you buy into it and stay into it and don't go the optional route. Yeah. You know about that, being an employee. And I, you know, it was just going to. You could see it. I could see, I could see it happening. When did you buy the place down in Florida? 

We bought it in 99. 

So And did you pick Fort Myers area because of having lived there before, because of your parents starting out there, or just because? 

Because in 69, shortly before our first child was born, I had taken Carolyn down, my wife, down for a one-week visit. And we knew after that visit that's where we were going to retire. Oh, really? 

You both liked it that well? 

Oh, yeah, yeah. And so, 69 to 2003, that's a long time. That's sticking to your guns. 

But we had visited. 

We actually had purchased a place in the 80s and decided it was too small, sold it, and then in 99, we found another place and went ahead and bought it. You live in an apartment, but you buy it. It's not an apartment. It's a condominium. It's a condo, yeah. It's a condo. They just call it an apartment. Units or whatever. It's an apartment, yeah. 

So you definitely own it. And you spend the better part of the year there. Yes. It's about seven months. 

So it's a drive back and forth. And both places are home still? 

Yes. We would never give up our home in Athens. That is home. Yeah. 

Well, if you said where is home, that would be home. 

How long in your life period has just gone by? 

Have you stayed connected to swimming? 

Is it still part of your life today? 

Oh, yeah. 

So it's been a continual. Yeah, it's a continual thing, yeah. And it was just so much fun to, at our reception, I had four former swimmers. Oh, that's cool that they came back. Yeah, they all came back, and we had a picture taken of the five of us and everything. 

So swimming has always been a present. 

Even when you were teaching in Athens, at Georgia, you were still taking a hand in? 

Well, when I was at Albany, I helped coach as a volunteer coach. Right. 

When I came back to Georgia, I helped as a volunteer for a couple of years until I realized it just wasn't going to be possible to make an impact in either place if I split my time. 

So you didn't coach anymore, but you still... Oh, I went to all the meets. Oh, so you were still active and a volunteer. Oh, still active. Keeping your hand in it. Keeping your hand in it. And do you swim yourself still? 

No. I swam for about 20, 23 years, I guess, in kind of a lunch bunch senior group. I've heard of people doing that for basketball, but not for swimming. Yeah, it's a little more boring. 

But I have issues with tendonitis. I had surgery on one elbow for golf elbow. 

But when you swim, that's a painful. And I've got the same thing in the other. 

So you had to give it up? 

I just had to give it up. 

So now walking and biking are my exercise. The water is a friend to the older bodies and the older bones. As long as you don't have tendon problems. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe that's it. As you told us, you had two children, Ashley and Chris. I want you to tell me a little bit about them now. 

So let's start with Ashley. Ashley was born in 1969. She knows when she was born. You don't have to tell me her birthday. Did she swim? 

She did. She swam a little bit until she was about 10 or 11. Wasn't interested. Wasn't her thing. She just, yeah, she wasn't interested, wasn't big enough, wasn't strong enough for it. She is still a very small person. She graduated from Oconee County High School. Went to Chapel Hill, North Carolina, to get her undergraduate degree in anthropology. From there, she went to the University of Tennessee to get a master's and Ph. D. in anthropology. 

So she got both of them at UT? 

Yeah, specializing in forensic anthropology. Knoxville or Chattanooga? 

No, Tennessee, Knoxville. They're both in Tennessee. Yeah, Knoxville. They had an outstanding forensic program. 

So does she work in criminal science? 

I mean, forensics is criminal science, isn't it? 

Yeah, she did a lot. 

At one position, she accompanied the medical examiner to a number of sites when she was teaching at the University of Montana. She hadn't done that as much recently. 

So primarily she's a professor. She's a teacher then. Right, yeah. 

Where is she teaching now then? 

She, okay, she was a, she worked with the Smithsonian for a year after she graduated, came back to Knoxville and taught for a year there, and then went to the University of Montana for 10 years until the snow and ice got to her as well. And she is now at Texas State University. Oh, okay, so she's back where the weather is a little bit more. Yeah, right. She married a fellow student at the University of Tennessee. He's got a Ph. D. in archaeology. He's got a Ph. D. in archaeology. Todd, okay. 

And Todd is originally from Nebraska, but came to UT to get a master's in archaeology and then stayed around and got a Ph. D. They actually graduated in the same ceremony. 

Oh, for heaven's sake, isn't that neat? 

So is he a practicing archaeologist? 

He is the head of the Texas State University Institute for Archaeological Research. 

So they both teach at the same place, then? 

They both work at the same place, yes. Ah, that's neat. And do they have any children? 

They have two children. They have a 15-year-old son, Keegan, who is very artistic and very much into that sort of thing. And they have an 11-year-old daughter, Katie Jane, who is more into athletics and other things. 

Is she going to be your swimmer? 

No, she swam last summer, not this summer, but the summer before that. And she said, I don't think that. She was really good for a starting swimmer. 

Well, you've got to have a passion for it. You've got to have a passion, you know. 

So she's still going to find what that is. Right, so she's got other interests. 

So they live far away. Do you get to see them fairly often? 

They live, well, New Braunfels is a two-day drive. That's far away. Yeah, and we're flying out there in October for a few days. 

So do you see them a couple times a year then? 

A couple or three times. They came for the reception, and they were here for a while. And so, yeah, we get to see them. And, you know, Skype is a wonderful thing now. Is it? 

Yeah. face time face time there you go against you can see them right they grow up so fast they do yeah they grow they even grow faster when they're grandchildren than they are oh let me tell you yeah because we but we were there when both of them were born yeah and you're removed from them oh yeah turn around and they're another size that's right that's right that's really grand though that you do get to see them as often as you do now tell me about chris chris um graduated from the University of Georgia what did what did he go to Oconee high school he went to Oconee no he went to Clark Central High School we had moved into Clark County by the time he went to Clark Central which was nice for him he didn't have to follow the sister's foot right and and so then we're college did he he started out at Western Carolina and after three semesters he said I'm wasting your money and my time I'm going in the Marines. Wow that's a big decision. He was still you know in good standing with the school but he just decided. 

So he was in the Marines for four years. Wow that changed his life. Spent time in Okinawa, spent time in the Mediterranean. 

Came back and managed to, went to school for about a year at a community college and then transferred into Georgia. Oh, so he came to school in Athens. He came to school in Athens, yeah. And what's his degree in? 

His degree is in sociology with a minor in criminology. He is now, he is with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation as a special agent. Wow. Who would have thunk that, huh? 

So both of your children have had interests in investigations. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Did they watch a lot of CSI or something? 

I just wondered how that happened. You better behave. Yeah, that's absolutely the change. 

They'll know everything, huh? 

They're good detectives, are they? 

That's detectives on the highest level, being able to discern things. 

So he lives right here in Georgia. He lives in Athens. but actually works over here in Atlanta. Oh, does he? 

Yeah, he's on a special assignment in Atlanta. 

But you do see him all the time? 

Oh, all the time, yeah, yeah. 

Now, when you move down to Florida, does anybody come visit you there? 

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we had the whole family there last Christmas. Oh, that's nice. 

And then Chris will probably come down for Thanksgiving and maybe Christmas or one or the other, you know, depending on what he's doing here. How long did your, you mentioned your father passed away when he was 72. How long did your mother live? 

She lived to be 87. 

So she had a good life. Yeah, she lived to be 87, and she was living in Charleston or Mount Pleasant when she passed away. Neither of her parents lived that long. Her mother died. You said when she was only 48. 

Well, she died in 1948, but I think she was just 48. Yeah, I think you told me she was young. Yeah, I think that's the case. 

So that's really extremely young, and we know your grandfather died extremely young, so your mom lived a long time. Yeah, she did. Yeah. And she had a very good life. She was only ill for maybe four months at the end. Let's hope you got her genes. Yeah, it'd be nice. Does that sound like a good deal? 

It would be nice, yeah. 

Now tell me about your sister, too. 

My sister lived in Charleston until six or seven years ago when she retired from real estate and moved to Waynesville, North Carolina. She's five and a half years younger than me. Okay. Did she marry and have children? 

She was married but never had children. 

So no nieces and nephews. No nieces and nephews. Very small family. Like I say, my family is my wife's family. Yeah, because it's very small other than what you've done yourself. Yeah, on my side, yeah. Yeah. I think I have one living cousin. You're kidding. Yeah. Only one. Only one. That's very unusual, I think. It is. It is. That's very unusual. 

Well, you told me you had a boring life, but you fibbed to me because you don't have a boring life at all. You've had a blessed life. I have. Very, very fortunate. Your children are well. Your grandchildren are well. everybody's healthy that this is some really you know really a thing to be grateful for the travel you've done and now you have a hobby of biking and hiking seeing the world yeah and following your passion to read yeah you who lived with parents who had their own bookstore i mean to me when i was growing up that would have been nirvana bookstore it was i i would pull books out and read them and you know read while I'm sitting at the counter waiting for people to come up and of course they'd come up and I'd still be reading and they say excuse me yeah could I bother you bud yeah that kind of thing yeah but that's neat well it's been a pleasure sharing your life with you today and I did want to thank you so much for what you did for Freddie Lanou stepping up to the plate I'm glad that we were able to do that because he deserved it I'm glad that you made that phone call to me yeah say hey did you ever hear Freddie Lanou and I said let me send you a video I got about him. Do you remember that? 

Oh, yeah. That was a while back. Right. That's not something I could have ever done. Has anybody else that you've interviewed talked about him very much? 

All the time. All the time. Everybody did. Nobody ever thought to nominate him for any kind of award or to put him in a Hall of Fame. Right. He's in two Hall of Fame. 

But not from anybody from Georgia Tech. No. 

Well, he is. He's in the Georgia Tech Athletic Hall of Fame. Yeah, but, yeah, that's true. I take that back. And there's another, the Helms Hall of Fame, which I'm not sure what that is. I don't even know what that is. I can't find out anyway. No, I can't either. 

But I was happy to do this, and having two former swimmers on the board. Who knew you were going to be so well-connected? 

That really aced it. 

But it's a great thing you did for us, for Georgia Tech, to have him in that Georgia Hall of Fame. Good. I'm glad I could do it. He was well worthy of it. He was. Very worthy of it. Yeah. 

And while, and it's unfortunate that the Red Cross never picked up groundproofing, and it has kind of fallen by the way. No, but the Navy SEALs did, and they are still using it. We saw pictures not that long ago showing them with their feet tied together. 

You know, I said something in my interview that I will, when I sent it to you, that really struck on me. 

I saw the movie Dunkirk, and in that movie, there's a scene where some evacuees from the beach are bombed, and they have to jump into the water, and I wondered how many of them would have lived if they knew Drownproofing. 

Well, I can tell you from having interviewed as many hundreds of people as I have, I've often been told about capsizing off the coast of the Keys there, staying 8, 10, 12, 14 hours in the water because the boat sank. 

People who've been in, what do we call those things, the tidal waves that come in? 

Oh, yeah, tsunamis? 

Tsunamis, yeah, the funny word, yeah. Tsunami, people who have been able to come up and then stay with it. Stay with it, stay calm, know that they can do it. 

And there's some people that say it's a skill that once you acquire you never lose and they do it just to show off yeah right but it is it the biggest thing that people say is it gave me confidence uh-huh I could I could never no one could ever have told me I could have done that especially that underwater both ways swim there's so many people that talk about having going down and pick something up with their teeth off the drain you know yeah and of course I did interview Herb McCauley and he certainly gave us great stories about Freddie. Yeah I bet he did. Yeah great story. Because he swam for Freddie before and after the war. And one of the alums did write a story about him. His name is Leon Sokol and he calls it the little sinker. That was the name of the story. Really? 

He's the one that talked about you know Freddie going right down. 

So but I thank you on behalf of Georgia Taffer because we're really grateful that that got done. Good job thank you good job thank you for your time today it's been a pleasure thank you.