New  section  is  Mary  Morris. Agi  is  coming. Is  HCI  ready? That  should  be  exciting.  I  hope  you  all  can  join  us. It's  my  pleasure  to  introduce a  Spencer  at  the  University  of  Michigan. I  think  about  how  the  Internet  works. I  think  about  personal  identity  as  being  one  of the  most  fundamental  qualities of  interaction  on  the  internet. Who  we  are  shapes, how  we  interact,  and  who we  become  as  individuals  and  as  a  culture. And  the  interesting  thing  about trans  technologies  in  particular  is  that  it's a  case  study  of  identity  on  line that  is  worthwhile  understanding  for  its  own  sake. But  I  think  also  helps  us  to  understand the  more  general  problem  of  representations of  identity  for  individuals  and groups  in  a  much  deeper  sense. It's  a  great  pleasure  to  welcome the  former  Scala  on Trans  Technologies  to  our  lunch  lecture. Oliver  Hason, thank  you  so  much. That's  a  little  blow.  How's  that? Good.  Okay,  thank  you  so  much,  Amy, for  the  introduction  and  for  organizing  this  visit, and  thanks  to  the  Institute  for  People  in  Technology  and GVU  for  hosting  this  talk  series. Yeah,  so  today  I'm  going  to  be talking  about  Trans  technologies, which  is  my  primary  research  agenda  these  days. But  I  wanted  to  start, every  time  I  give  a  talk  about  this  topic, I  start  with  looking  at the  most  recent  news  in the  area  of  antitrans  legislation. I'm  not  entirely  sure  how  visible  these  news  items are  to  people  who  aren't  kind  of searching  and  looking  for  this  type  of  stuff  like  I  am. But  I  wanted  to  just  bring  attention  to  some  of the  challenges  that  trans  people  are facing  in  this  current  political  climate. The  most  recent  legislation  has  been  in  Ohio, where  just  this  week  they've been  passing  laws  to  ban  transition  care. And  this  is  mostly  for  young  people, for  people  under  18, but  I  think  there  are potential  implications  for  adults  as  well. And  it  also  prohibits young  trans  people  from  playing  on  sports  teams. Um,  so  this  is  very  real, very,  very  current  this  week. Also,  there's  a  very  extreme  antitrans  bathroom  bill in  Utah  that  has  passed  their  house. If  this  is  something  that  becomes  law, it  requires  everyone  to  use the  public  restroom  that corresponds  with  their  birth  certificate  only. So  it  doesn't  matter  their  current  gender, their  current  presentation. They  would  be  required  to  use  the  restroom. A  aligning  with  their  birth  certificate. So  that  kind  of  thing  would  mean  that  you  would  see people  like  me  in  the  women's  restroom, which  I  don't  think  that  anybody would  be  very  comfortable  with. It's  also  the  kind  of  thing  that  would  impact,  I  think, a  lot  of  cisgender  people because  often  even  if  someone  is  cisgender, don't  you  might  not necessarily  read  them  in  the  correct  way. So  interestingly,  in  this  one  there's also  this  false  reporting  mechanism. So  if,  let's  say  you  misjudge someone  and  you  try  to get  them  arrested  for  being  in  the  wrong  restroom, then  you  could  actually  end  up  being  prosecuted  yourself. So  it  kind  of  just  opens  up  all  of these  really  weird  laws  around  people  judging other  people's  genders  and  restrooms  and  trying  to  get people  in  trouble  for  being  in  the  wrong  restroom. It's  not  just  about  youth, it's  not  just  about  bathrooms. A  lot  of  states  are  also  trying  to restrict  adults  from  trans  health  care. This  is  happening  in  currently  Florida  and  Missouri. A  lot  of  people  in  these  states  are actually  finding  themselves  having  to  leave these  states  to  be  able  to access  the  health  care  that  they  need. Of  course,  I  did  want  to  focus  in  on Georgia  and  let  you  know  what  all  is  going  on  here. This  is  from  June  2023, that's  when  the  state  of  Georgia banned  trans  healthcare  for  minors. It  seems  like  that  people  who  are already  receiving  hormones  can  still  get  them. But  anyone  who  wants  to start  on  hormones  in  the  state  of  Georgia, who's  under  18  is  not  able  to  do  that. And  one  of  the  quotes  in  this  article,  it  says, this  is  lifesaving  care  for  many  people  in Georgia  And  that's  a  quote  from  Dr.  Izzy  Lowell, who's  actually  someone  I  interviewed  for the  study  that  I'm  going  to  be  presenting  today. Looks  like  there  was  a  little  bit  of  pushback  here. A  federal  judge  temporarily  blocked  part  of  that  ban. This  was  back  in  August,  late  August. But  then  after  that,  another  federal  judge restored  the  ban  right  in  September. It  seems  like  from  what  I  can  tell, Georgia  is  one  of  those  states  where  youth cannot  start  on  trans  healthcare. The  context  that  I  am  looking  at all  of  this  from  a  research  perspective is  trans  technology. And  I  have  two  definitions  of  this, but  I'm  going  to  give  you  first this  practical  definition, which  is  technology  that  addresses  the  needs  and challenges  faced  by  transgender  people  and  communities. And  it's  often  designed  in  response  to the  lack  of  trans  inclusion and  more  mainstream  technologies. And  with  all  of  these  antitrans  legislation  in the  current  political  climate  that has  been  very  harmful  for  transgender  people. I  wanted  to  show  some  of the  trans  technologies  that  have  popped  up  in  response. So  the  first  one  I  want  to  talk about  is  called  the  Transformations  Project. And  it's  basically  a  way  of  tracking  all  of this  antitrans  legislation  across  the  United  States. So  you  can  search  by  state, you  can  look  at  what  all  the  current  bills  are, what  stage  they're  at, what  has  been  passed, what  hasn't,  et  cetera. And  so  this  is  a  really  useful resourced  for  being  able  to  keep  track  of  that. And  when  I  was  conducting  my  interviews, this  was  in  2020,  1.20  22. This  was  one  of  the  only  technologies that  was  doing  that  at  the  time. Now  there  are  many  more. As  this  continues  being such  a  contentious  political  issue, neu  trans  technologies  are  really popping  up  very  quickly. There  are  a  lot  of  them  now. This  one  I  think  is  really  a  really  cool  technology. It's  called  Trans  Family  Network. And  what  they  do  is  they connect  people  who  are  in  need  of  resources, different  kinds  of  things. Like  for  instance,  let's  say  you're  a  family  with a  young  trans  person  and  you  live  in  the  state  of  Texas. Back  then  when  this  was  first  created, a  lot  of  these  issues  were  really prevalent  in  Texas  and  so  a  lot  of families  were  feeling  like  they  had to  move  out  of  Texas  or  they  had  to travel  outside  of  Texas  to get  the  health  care  that  their  child  needed. And  they  were  looking  for  support from  other  people  who  could  help  them  with things  like  let's  say  transportation  or  even  money, monetary  resources  or  social  support. All  of  these  different  things. And  the  way  that  this  started organizing  was  through  just  a  big  spreadsheet. So  initially  people  were  connecting  on  Twitter. People  were  all  filling  out  this  spreadsheet, saying,  here's  what  I  can  provide. And  people  were  saying,  here's  what  I  need. And  then  they  would  try  to  kind  of  match  up  that  way. But  that  wasn't  a  really  great  solution for  a  number  of  reasons. I  think  you  can  all  think  about the  privacy  implications  if  you're  putting your  name  on  this  spreadsheet  and your  contact  info  in  this  hostile  political  climate. And  so  this  group  of mostly  relatively  affluent  trans  women who  mostly  were  working  in tech  companies  in  Silicon  Valley, they  met  on  Twitter  and  they  work  together. They  decided  to  take  two  weeks  off  work  and  just build  this  system  that  would  work better  than  the  spreadsheet  that  there  currently  was. Within  this  two  weeks,  they  built this  system,  Trans  Family  network, that  turned  the  spreadsheet into  a  privacy  conscious  system  that could  really  effectively  vet people  and  connect  the  people  that  needed  help, with  those  who  could  provide  help. So  I  think  this  is  a  really, really  cool  example  of  what trans  technology  can  do  and  how  it  can  happen relatively  quickly  from  people  who didn't  even  know  each  other  before they  started  working  on  this  together. Another  couple  examples. This  one  on  the  left  is  from  2023, this  is  their  LGBTQ  legislative  tracking. This  is  basically  just  a  spreadsheet and  some  visualizations  that  people  had  done. And  then  this  one  on  the  right, this  is  just  from  last  week  by  someone  named  Aaron  Red, who's  a  pretty  prominent  activist  in  this  space. Also  someone  that  I  interviewed  for  this  study. And  she  keeps  track  of  this  map  kind  of  showing which  places  are  more  and  less safe  for  trans  people  in  the  US. So  you  can  see  that  Georgia  here  is  not  the  worst. It's  not  as  bad  as  Florida, but  it's  also  not  great. And  then  she  also  has  this  smaller  youth map  that  you  can  look  at if  you're  interested  in  the  implications  for  trans  youth. And  then  another  thing  that  came up  was  this  fundraising  campaign. This  is  a  site  called  Tao, which  is  a  place  where  people  who  make smaller  games  and  sometimes  stories  or  art  pieces, they  post  them  on  here  to  distribute  them. Someone  created  this  fund  raisers, tabletop  role  playing  games  for  trans  rights  in  Florida. And  at  the  point  where  I  took  this  screenshot, there  were  254  different  creators who  had  submitted  games  as  part  of  this  fund  raiser. And  they  had  raised  almost  $300,000  All  of  these  games, not  all  of  them,  but  probably  most  of  them, we  can  consider  different  trans  technologies. And  then  they  kind  of  banded  together to  support  trans  rights  in  Florida. This  is  just  an  example  of  some  of the  things  that  I'm  talking  about when  I  say  trans  technologies. In  my  talk  today,  I'm  going  to be  giving  some  excerpts  from my  forthcoming  book  that  will  be  coming  out  in 2025  from  Mit  Press. Even  though  this  was  a  project that  is  single  authored  for  the  book, I  did  want  to  acknowledge  my  collaborators. So  these  are  people  I've  worked  with either  as  students,  postdocs, research  assistants,  PI's  on the  grant  that  we  have  for  this. These  people  have  really  been  instrumental in  all  of  the  different  parts  of  this  project. So  the  methods  that  we  used  for  this  study, it  was  primarily  interviews  I  talked  with. I  did  104  interviews. I  did  about,  I  think  80%  of  those myself  and  then  other  members of  my  research  team  did  the  rest. This  was  115  different  trans tech  creators  because  some  of  them, there  were  multiple  people  from the  same  technology  that  wanted to  be  involved  in  the  interview. And  when  I  say  trans  tech  creators, I  don't  mean  that  they  were  necessarily  trans  themselves, I  mean  that  they  were  someone who  had  created  a  trans  technology. Most  of  them  were  trans. About  80%  of  them  were, but  some  of  them  were  also  sender, and  this  was  in  2020,  1.20,  22. The  recruitment  method  for  that  was what's  called  criterion  sampling. So  this  is,  I  basically  made  a  big  list  of  everything that  I  could  consider a  trans  technology  with  help  from  my  research  team. And  then  we  contacted  all  of  the  people  on  the  list and  invited  them  for  an  interview and  we  had  a  pretty  good  response  rate. It  was  about,  I  think  47% ended  up  doing  an  interview  with  us. I  also  did  a  lot  of digital  ethnography  throughout  a  couple  of  years, and  this  involved  using a  lot  of  the  different  technologies  myself, following  them  on  social  media, following  all  their  e  mail  lists. And  then  I  also  attended  the  Trans  Tech  Summit, which  is  a  yearly  conference  in  this  space. I  attended  that  in  two  years  in  a  row. And  then  for  data  analysis, mostly  we  were  doing  reflexive  thematic  analysis. Going  back  to  this  definition. As  I  mentioned  earlier, there  are  actually  two  definitions. And  this  is  the  more  practical definition  where  we're  just  thinking about  these  are  technologies  that help  solve  some  of  these  needs  and  challenges. But  I  also  came  up  with  this  more  theoretical  definition. The  way  I  got  to  these  definitions  was  really  by asking  each  of  the  trans  tech  creators what  they  thought  trans  technology  was. So  it's  not  just  what  I  think  it  is, it's  this  collective  understanding  of  what  it  is. This  theoretical  definition  is  that it's  technology  that  embraces  change  in  transition, has  potential  to  create  new  trans  worlds  and opens  up  new  possibilities  for what  technology  means  and  what  it  can  do. This  came  from  some  of the  creators  who  are  maybe  thinking  about  things  in a  more  academic  sense or  more  theoretical  sense  rather  than just  this  practical  creating  tech  to  solve  problems. I'm  not  going  to  go  into  this  part  in  detail, but  this  is  a  categorization of  some  of  the  different  meanings that  came  up  in  the  data. There  were  a  number  of  different  practical  meaning, a  number  of  different  theoretical  meanings. And  then  also  design  process  related  meaning it  does  matter  that  the  technology  center  trans people  and  it  does  matter  to  some  people  that they  are  actually  created  by  for  trans  people. These  are  just  a  few  of the  examples  of  technologies  in  the  dataset. So  I  just  wanted  to  show  you  the  wide  range  of different  things  that  are  under this  umbrella  of  trans  technology. For  instance,  just  apps  and  websites, but  then  we  also  have  ARV  podcasts  supplies. On  the  top  right,  there's  Tran, which  is  used  for binding  purposes  for  transmasculine  people. The  one  in  the  top  middle  there, it's  like  a  prosthetic  that  can  allow  you  to have  multiple  identities  on  apple  face  ID. So  lots  and  lots  of different  technologies  in  this  data  set, 104  different  ones  that  I  was  able  to  speak  to. I  want  to  take  you  through  the  primary  arguments  from the  book  and  then  I'll  go  into  each  of  these  in  detail. So  the  first  is  that  fans,  technology  design  processes, they're  often  really  personal  for  the  creators  and they  tend  to  focus  on those  creators  own  needs  and  desires. So  people  are  designing  things  that  they  need themselves  and  they  have  the  skills  to  create  that. So  they  see  that  it's  not  already  available. They  go  ahead  and  create  it  themselves. So  this  can  be  really empowering  for  people  because  they  have this  agency  to  create  the  tools that  they  themselves  need  to  navigate  the  world. So  that's  really  exciting, you  know,  that  some  people  are  able  to  do  this. But  at  the  same  time,  there's a  lot  of  cases  when  this  was a  really  individualistic  process and  did  not  include  community  members. And  this  can  lead  to this  overly  individualistic  design that  tends  to  speak  to more  privileged  transpeople's  needs. And  this  is  important because  the  trans  technology  creators, the  people  who  do  have  these  skills to  be  able  to  create  whatever  tech  they  need, they  tend  to  be  more  likely  to  be  white, they  tend  to  be  more  of  a  higher  socioeconomic  status. They  tend  to  be  more  highly educated  then  the  trans  population  overall. So  then  we  see  this  gap  between  the  actual  needs  of the  full  trans  population  and then  the  needs  that  are actually  being  addressed  by  trans  technologies. Because  not  everyone  has  the  skills  and  has  the  time  and resources  to  just  be  able  to  go  out there  and  create  what  it  is  that  they  need. So  I'm  going  to  go  through  each  of these  facets  of  the  argument  one  by  one. So  the  first  is  this  fact that  trans  tech  design  processes are  really  deeply  personal  and  focus on  people's  own  needs  and  desires. And  this  is  because  people  are drawing  a  lot  from  their  own  experiences. And  I  don't  think  this  is  unique  to  trans  technology. I  think  a  lot  of  times  when  we  see, you  know,  tech  start  ups, people  are  talking  about  their  own, they  give  a  story  maybe  about their  own  needs  or  desires  or  somebody  that  they  know something  that  personally  relates to  them  that  they  design  technology  in  response  to  that. I  think  it's  a  little  different  in the  trans  tech  context  because  sometimes  these  are  just like  vital  needs  related to  health  and  well  being,  things  like  that. But  I'll  give  you  a  few  examples  here. So  this  is  a  pretty  well known  trans  health  company  called  Plume. And  I  talked  to  Dr.  Jerika  Kirkley. Oftentimes,  this  is  an  example of  understanding  trans  needs  and then  creating  tech  to  address those  needs  based  on  one's  own  personal  experiences. Dr.  Kirkly  said,  I'm  a  trans  person  myself. I  have  the  privilege  of  being  a  physician actually  knowing  how  the  system  works  for  the  most  part. And  I  still  had  struggles  of  my  own  in navigating  some  of  this  and getting  the  services  that  I  needed. So  that  is  really  where  it  was  all  born  out  of. So  this  is  a  person  who  is  very privileged  in  terms  of  trans  people  more  broadly. So  she's  a  physician, she's  white,  she  is  highly  educated. Obviously  physicians  make  a  lot  of  money, and  even  for  her,  it  was  a  struggle to  get  the  health  care  that  she  needed. And  so  that  was  a  lot  of her  motivation  for  creating  plume. Another  person  I  talked  to  you  was  Aaron  Reed, who  I  showed  you  some  of  the  maps that  she  had  helped  create  earlier. But  she  also  created  this  technology  called  called Aaron's  Informed  Consent  Hormone  Replacement  Therapy  map. And  so  she  designed this  also  based  on  her  own  experience. She  said  I  was  30  and  was  trying  to  find a  hormone  therapy  clinic and  didn't  know  if  I  could  find  one. My  struggles  definitely  made  me  realize, is  there  really  not  a  place  where  I  can  just  go online  and  look  for the  nearest  informed  consent  location  to  me? No,  there  wasn't.  It  didn't  exist  at  all. And  so  just  in  dealing  with  those  frustrations, I  wanted  to  make  this  one  day. I  wanted  to  make  sure  that  people  don't have  to  go  through  this  Sal  ****  one  day. So  for  those  of  you  who  might  not  know  what informed  consent  means  in  this  context, it  basically  means  you  can  get trans  healthcare  just  by  saying, yes,  I  need  this  healthcare. You  don't  have  to  go  through  seeing  a Counselor  or  a  psychiatrist and  having  someone  sign  off  and  say  that  you  need  it. You  can  just  say  that  yourself. So  you  can  see  why  it's important  for  people  to  be  able  to know  how  far  they might  need  to  go  to  get  this  health  care. And  this  is  a  way  that  Aaron  Reed  was able  to  exercise  her  agency  to  create this  healthcare  resource  for  people  all  across the  US  and  even  some  locations  beyond  the  US. To  find  the  healthcare  providers  that  would  help them  move  on  in  their  transition  journeys. And  she  was  thinking  back  to her  own  experience  where  she  really wasn't  able  to  get  her  needs  met  initially. And  she  had  to  drive quite  a  far  distance  at the  beginning  of  her  transition  because  of  this. And  I'm  going  to  talk  later  about what  I'm  calling  technological  trans  care. But  this  is  basically my  concept  for  thinking  about  how  people  like  Aaron  Red are  demonstrating  care  to  their  community  in this  one  to  many  fashion by  creating  technology  like  this. So  in  the  second  part  of  the  argument, I  talk  about  how trans  technology  design  can  be  really  empowering. Because  these  technology  creators  have the  agency  to  create  the  tools  that they  need  to  navigate  the  world. In  this  part,  I'm  talking  about  people  identifying a  need  and  then  creating  a  technology  to  fill  that  need. And  this  can  be  really  powerful  because  when society  is  not  providing the  things  that  these  people  need, they're  able  to  fill  that  gap  on  their  own. And  this  tends  to  often  be  this  form  of technological  trans  care  that not  only  increases  agency  for  the  creator, but  also  for  all  of  the  people  who  are  using  it. Often,  this  is  very  directly  a  result  of marginalization  that  trans  people  face  in  the  world. This  is  a  participant  who  wanted to  be  pseudonymous  in  this  study. Everyone  whose  name  I'm  including, there's  someone  who  wanted specifically  to  be  identified  in  the  study, which  was  most  of  the  participants. Which  is  pretty  different  from a  lot  of  the  research  I've  done  in  the  past. Where  typically  people  would  be  anonymous. But  this  one  person  did  want  to  use  a  pseudonym. She  was  someone  who  identified some  of  the  problems  that  trans  people  were facing  in  the  world  and  she  didn't want  to  wait  around  for  solutions  to  appear. She  said,  I  came  out  when  I  was eight  and  very  few  trans  resources whatsoever  were  around. There  was  this  huge  need, I  didn't  feel  supported, so  I  would  need  an  online  resource. There  were  also  thousands  of other  young  trans  people  who  would need  that  online  resource  too. So  I  worked  with  some  friends  that  I knew  from  the  internet  and  we  started  this, what  is  an  anonymized  here  educational  resource for  trans  young  people? I'm  one  of  the  two  co  founders. We  were  both  16  year  old  trans  girls  at  the  time. We  didn't  know  how  big  it  was  going  to  grow  or  how long  it  was  going  to  last  and  it's  still  running  strong. So  this  was  someone  who  lived  in a  very  rural  area  and  she didn't  really  have  access  to  resources. And  so  she,  at  eight  years  old, basically  created  her  own  website,  right? So  like  she  had  her  own  personal  website  at  that  point. She  was  already  coding  at  eight  years  old, but  then  as  a  16  year  old, created  this  trans  educational  resource. And  this  really  highlights this  agency  that  a  lot  of  trans  people, when  they  do  have  these  technological  encoding  skills that  they  can  use  to  meet  the  trans  community's  needs. And  then  they  can  also  help  to meet  the  needs  of  other  people  who  are  like  them. Another  example  is  this  trans  family  network that  I  mentioned  at  the  beginning  of  the  talk. This  is  a  way  that these  relatively  privileged  trans  women  in the  community  were  able  to  help other  trans  people  by  using  their  own  relative  privilege. To,  as  I  mentioned, they  took  about  two  weeks  off  work  from their  Silicon  Valley  high  paying tech  jobs  to  create  this  resource. And  this  helps  people  that  don't  really  have  the  skills, the  resources,  the  time. And  again,  is  demonstrating  what I'm  calling  technological  transcare. So  Jalen  Bowers,  one  of  the  creators  here, she  said,  it's  not  so  much. I  imagine  myself  there, I  imagine  it  happening  to  someone  I  care  about, and  I  have  the  power  to  fix  it, so  I'm  going  to  go  fix  it. So  as  a  software  engineer, Bowers  was  someone  who  was  really  used to  fixing  problems  using  a  code,  right? And  she  saw  an  opportunity  here  to  try  to  fix aspects  of  this  antitrans  legislative  crisis. And  to  increase  access  to resources  for  trans  people  and  their  families. And  that's  why  she  helped  to  create this  trans  family  network  to  address  those  needs. Next,  I  want  to  get  into  the  third  part  of  the  argument, which  is  that  when trans  communities  are  not  involved  in  design  processes, this  can  lead  to  overly  individualistic  design  that speaks  primarily  to more  privileged  trans  people's  needs.  So As  you  saw  in  a  lot  of  these  quotes, a  lot  of  trans  technologies  are  designed  primarily  for either  the  creator  themselves or  people  that  are  very  similar  to  them. And  since  many  of  them  were  likely  to  be  white  and  highly educated  and  relatively  financially  privileged, these  people  were  very  different  than the  general  population  of  trans  people. In  this  way,  it  really  has  potential  to exclude  a  lot  of  the  more marginalized  trans  community  members, that's  trans  people  of  color, people  with  lower  socioeconomic  status, people  that  don't  have  these  highly  technical  skills, then  these  individualistic  design  processes  tend  to lead  to  technologies  that are  designed  for  individual  needs. And  sometimes  this  doesn't  align  with the  challenges  that  are  most  pervasive, more  broadly  in  the  trans  population. Especially  for  people  who  have identities  that  are  multiply  marginalized, like  trans  people  of  color. In  this  way  sometimes  transect  design  can  lead  to further  marginalization  for  some  facets of  the  trans  population. And  I'm  going  to  give  a  few  examples  here. This  one  is  I  guess  not  something  that  a  lot  of tech  creators  talked  about  super  openly. But  I  do  have  some  examples  that  do  point  to  this. A  lot  of  times  the  trans  tech  creation  processes were  really  solo  endeavors. And  again,  this  creates technologies  that  are  really  individual  centered and  may  not  actually  work  for more  broad  and  diverse  groups  of  trans  people. So  this  one  is  a  gender affirming  hormone  therapy  tracking  app  called  Patch  Day. And  this  took  a  really  individualistic  approach, and  this  is  what  the  designer, Julia  Smith  had  to  say. She  said  initial  prototyping  was zero  care  about  anyone  but  myself. I'm  a  new  coder,  I  need  to  just  have  something  working. This  is  a  fun  project  for  me. I  didn't  do  the  whole  investigating other  people's  problems. So  this  was  something  that  came about  without  any  input  from  the  community. She  really  didn't  care  about  that. It  was  kind  of  just  her  own  project, something  she  wanted  to  be  able  to  use  for herself  and  who  knows  how  this  would work  for  people  that  don't  share her  identity  as  a  young  white  trans  woman. This  is  one  of  the  more  explicit, I  think,  examples  of  this. So  this  was  someone  named  Andrea  James  who  was  creating this  really  formative  online  trans  resource called  the  transgender  map. It  was  initially  called  the  transsexual  road  map, but  changed  its  name  a  number  of  years  ago. And  this  is  created  by  a  white  trans  woman. And  she  was  really  pretty forthright  in  her  motivation  here. So  she  said,  I  wanted  to help  the  people  who  are  kind  of  like  me, who  were  college  educated, competitive  in  white  collar  fields. Because  I  knew  if  enough  of  them were  able  to  keep  their  jobs  and  thrive, that  we  would  be  able  to  support  things  like  artists  and political  activists  and lobbying  groups  and  things  like  that. So  that  was  my  grand  scheme. So  I  was  trying  to  make  it  for  everybody, but  I  was  really  focused  on  people who  I  was  most  easily  able  to  help. So  when  I  hear  this  quote  to  me, it  carries  this  implicit  assumption that  the  people  who  are  not  like  her, so  the  people  who  are  not  white  and  college educated  are  not  as  capable  of  helping  themselves. That's  what  it  feels  like  she's  implying  here. To  me  it  feels  like  she's  placing  a  judgment on  certain  people  being  more  respectable  than  others. I  think  that  these  assumptions are  quite  harmful  and  I  think  that  they're actually  inherent  in  the  design of  this  technological  resource. She  really  built  and  maintains  the  site from  this  more  privileged  perspective. I  think  that  gives  it  the  potential  to  exclude, or  maybe  it  omits some  of  the  resources  that  would  be  most helpful  for  those  trans  people  who are  not  white  and  well  educated  and  affluent. Again,  going  back  to  these  primary  arguments, I'm  not  going  to  read  through  them  again, but  I  think  this  is  one  of the  important  things  to consider  when  we  see  these  technologies that  are  really  self  focused. Is  that  they  may  not  actually  be representing  the  broader  group that  they  may  be  designed  for. When  I  see  this  happen, I  think  that  trans  technology would  be  better  designed  if  it did  include  broader  facets  of the  trans  community  in design  processes  to  a  greater  extent. This  could  help  to  kind  of  lessen  these  gaps  between what  technologies  are  out there  and  what  the  actual  needs  are. Again,  trans  technologies  can  be  most  impactful,  I  think, when  they  involve  trans  people  and  communities  in  design, rather  than  just  being these  individualist  design  processes that  meet  one  person's  needs. Trans  perspectives  and  lived  experiences  here  can  enable a  reworking  and  rethinking  of  how technology  design  can  benefit  trans  people. What  do  we  actually  do  about  this? How  can  we  address  this  actually this  problem  here  that  I  noticed  in  the  research. There's  this  empowering  and this  potentially  liberatory  potential of  trans  technologies. And  I've  argued  here  that  we  should  be  using more  human  centered  design  processes involving  communities  more  in  the  design  process. Which  I  think  we  all  probably  know that  from  an  academic  perspective, from  taking  classes  or teaching  classes  in  human  centered  design. And  there  were  plenty  of  projects  in my  dataset  that  really  did  take a  human  centered  design  approach and  did  involve  community  members, but  those  were  the  ones  that tended  not  to  actually  be  deployed. So  oftentimes  these  were  done  in  academic  contexts, like  during  a  class  or from  academic  researchers  who  created  something, published  a  paper  about  it, but  then  really  didn't  do  much  with  it  after  that. So  I  think  we're  all  kind  of  familiar  with this  issue  and  we  haven't necessarily  decided  what  we  can  do  about that  to  make  it  so  that  there's not  such  a  gap  between the  really  good  design  processes  and then  what  is  actually  deployed  out  there  in  the  world. I  have  a  few  suggestions  here  to  move  towards community  based  trans  technology that  is  actually  deployed  rather  than  just  designed. And  I  think  one  way  to  do  this  could be  to  set  up  some  programs  to  bring designs  from  classrooms  and academic  research  more  to  deployment. And  this  could  take the  form  of  a  couple  different  types of  matching  programs. Matching  trans  tech  designers  with  developers. We  all  probably  know  the  stereotype that  trans  people  are  more likely  to  be  good  at  coding  than  other  people. And  there  are  a  lot  of  people  who  are  great  at  coding, but  may  not  have  good  ideas or  may  not  know  what  the  needs  are. So  if  we  could  somehow  find out  what  are  the  needs  and  connect those  with  people  who  want  to create  something  or  want  to  be  an  entrepreneur, That  could  be  a  way  to  do  this. Set  up  programs  to  connect tech  creators  with  community  members. So  maybe  if  people  are  on  this  path  where  they  want  to create  something  that's  very  individually  focused, maybe  we  can  connect  them  with community  members  who  may  be  different  from them  to  understand  what  the  needs are  more  broadly  than  just  themselves. Then  the  last  suggestion  is  making  more  space  for publishing  on  technology  deployment  and  user  studies. Just  from  my  own  experience,  I've  had  a  lot  of  trouble. Sometimes  when  I  do  a  study  where  we  actually create  a  technological  artifact, it's  hard  to  really  get  that  published. I've  had  a  lot  of  rejections  of  work  like  that. I  know  there  are  some  venues that  are  specifically  for  this  kind  of  stuff, at  ki,  et  cetera. But  if  you're  an  academic  and  you're supposed  to  have  top  tier  publications, you  need  to  submit  in  specific  venues and  specific  types  of  papers. And  it  would  be  great  if  there  was a  bit  more  space  for  things  like  this to  get  published  when  you're  really trying  to  deploy  something and  bring  it  back  to  the  community, rather  than  think  as  much  about  the  academic  parts  of  it. These  are  the  practical  ideas  that  I  had  in  mind. Next  I  want  to  talk  about  some  of the  more  theoretical  arguments that  are  going  through  this  book. The  first  is  Evans  Technologies are  often  very  wrapped  up  in  ambivalence. By  ambivalence  I  mean  there  are  several  things  that  are true  at  the  same  time  and the  creator  often  wavered  between  them. So  these  are  these  tensions  between  competing  goals  and desires  that  trans tech  creators  often  experience  simultaneously. These  included,  this  is  something that  happened  in  pretty  much all  of  the  chapters  in  the  book. There  were  different  types  of ambivalences  that  were  really  important. One  was  this  individualist  versus community  based  design  methods. Privileged  versus  inclusive  trans  technology  design. Capitalist  versus  anti  capitalist  approaches. And  utopian  versus  dystopian  trans  futures. And  when  I  say  versus, I  don't  really  mean  that  this  is  like  a  binary, that  there's  one  or  the  other. I  mean  that  these  creators  were  often fluctuating  between  thinking  about  things one  way  versus  the  other  way. And  these  are  really  complicated and  sometimes  both  can  be  true  at  the  same  time. This  partially,  I  think, explains  why  this  landscape  of  trans technologies  that  exists  doesn't  actually  map. Well  onto  the  grid  of the  trans  challenges  that  technology  might  help  address. The  other  primary  concept  that  goes  throughout the  whole  book  is  what  I've  been calling  technological  trans  care. And  what  this  means  is  trans  people  creating innovative  technological  mechanisms  to  support  each  other and  address  the  needs  that  they  and their  communities  face  in  the  world when  mainstream  systems  and technologies  reject  or  exclude  them. Clearly,  I  created  this  picture  using  AI, and  so  we  might  think  about technological  transcare  as  involving a  weird  robot  person  standing  in  a  potic  plant, or  maybe  a  person  walking  around  without  a  face. But  in  reality,  trans  technology  is  a  form  of  trans  care. This  is  drawing  from  Maltino's  work from  2020  about  trans  care, where  they  talked  about  the  way that  trans  people  take  care  of  each  other. For  instance,  an  example  would  be, after  someone  gets  surgery, another  person  helps  them  out  by  making  food  for  them  or, you  know,  finding  out  what  they  need  taking  care  of  them. But  the  difference  with  technology  here  is  that  it  can  be this  one  to  many  type  of  trans  care. So  it  can  reach  these  wide  audiences because  someone  is  creating  a  form  of technology  and  then  if it  is  deployed  and  used  by  a  lot  of  people, it's  a  way  someone  can  care for  another  person  without  ever actually  meeting  them  or ever  being  in  the  same  space  as  them. It's  a  really  important  way  for trans  people  to  fight  against  some  of the  discriminatory  and  hostile  systems  and political  environments  that  currently  exist. This  work  really  illuminates,  I  think, how  technology  helps  us  imagine new  possibilities  for  trans  people  in  communities. Some  of  the  examples  here  are this  trans  family  network  that  I  mentioned  before. Another  one  here  is  Mod  Club. This  is  an  online  community  and a  platform  for  sharing  surgery  photos. These  are  ways  that  trans technologies  help  trans  people  in unique  ways  that  they  might  not  have considered  without  these  forms  of  technology. At  the  same  time,  trans  experiences  can  help us  imagine  new  possibilities  for  technology. For  instance,  this  example  of  augmenting one's  face  to  enable  multiple  identities  for  Apple  ID. Another  one  is  creating  DNA phenotyping  to  represent  the  face of  someone  who  can't  be  physically  seen. This  is  an  example  with  Chelsea  Manning, who  many  of  you  probably  know. A  trans  woman  who  was  imprisoned  for  a  long  period  of time  and  was  collaborating  with this  artist  named  Heather  Dewey  Hagborg, who  I  was  able  to  talk  with  for  the  study. Heather  was  writing  a  magazine  article about  Chelsea  and  wanted  to  be  able  to, she  wasn't  writing  a  magazine, contacted  her  because  they wanted  a  photograph  of  Chelsea  Manning. But  nobody  could  get  a  photograph  of  her  because  she wasn't  allowed  to  have  any  kind  of  camera  in  prison. And  so  instead  of  having  a  photograph, they  decided  to  do  this  DNA  phenotyping. And  what  this  meant  is  that  Chelsea  provided, I  think  like  a  DNA  sample  and  a  hair  sample. And  then  Heather  created a  bunch  of  different  types  of  faces that  that  could  be  what  she looks  like  based  on  those  DNA  samples. So  she  called  this  project probably  Chelsea,  something  like  that. And  so  this  is  some  examples. This  is  after  Chelsea  got  out  of  prison, she  was  able  to  go  and  like  see  all  of these  different  examples  of what  her  face  might  have  looked  like. But  of  course,  for  the  magazine  article, they  chose  the  one  that  actually  they thought  probably  looked  the  most  like  her. Anyway,  these  are  new  possibilities for  technology  that  I  don't  think  we  would have  necessarily  thought  of  as  much without  examining  these  trans  experiences. This  is  something  that  I've  been  thinking about  using  this  concept  of  plasticity. And  this  is  coming  from  a  philosopher named  Katherine  Malabo. I  don't  know  if  I'm  pronouncing  that  right, but  this  is  talking  about  the  way  that things  are  at  the  same  time  malleable, so  they  can  take  the  form  of other  things  at  the  same  time, they're  able  to  change  their  surroundings. They  give  form  such  as things  like  plastic  arts  or  plastic  surgery. And  this  is  different  from  talking  about. I  know  we've  all  heard  about technology  as  maybe  flexible,  right? But  flexible  is  a  lot  more  simple. Flexible  means  you  kind  of  stretch something  and  then  it  goes  back  to  its  initial  form. But  this  is  going  in  two  different  directions. And  I  think  that  we  can  think  about  technology  as  being plastic  and  we  can  also  think about  trans  experiences  as  being  plastic. This  is  something  I'm still  thinking  through  if  anyone  has any  thoughts  or  knows  more  about  philosophy  than  me. Because  I  don't  know  it's  done  about  philosophy. I'd  love  to  talk  about  this  more. I  want  to  close  by  talking about  trans  studies  and  HCI  might  come  together because  this  is  something  I've been  thinking  about  a  lot  as  I've  been doing  this  work  and  thinking  about maybe  this  new  sub  field  of  trance  technology  studies. Again,  AI  image  that  shows  what  it  looks  like  when. Trans  Cities  meets  HCI, so  we're  all  going  to  be  kind  of hanging  out  in  an  office  like  space around  a  weird  cathedral and  watching  Powerpoints  together. What  I  really  mean  by  this  is designed  for  change  in  transition, so  that's  something  that  can  be  central. And  there's  already  been  a  lot  of  HCI  work  about  this, designing  for  marginality  rather  than  for an  average  user  that  we  all  know  doesn't  really  exist. Again,  that's  something  that  HCI  has  been  more  focused  on in  recent  years  then  thinking about  these  complexities  that  arise  when  design  processes are  really  personally  meaningful and  the  designer  is  part  of  the  user  group. Combining  all  of  these  things  together, I  think  is  an  important  way  to  think  about this  intersection  of  trans  studies  in  HCI. And  I  also  wanted  to  talk  about  this  ambivalence,  right? Because  I  think  this  is  a  really important  thing  that  we  can  think of  when  we  look  at  this  intersection. We  can  try  to  embrace this  ambivalence  and  multiplicity rather  than  trying  to  simplify. We  think  about  technology that  addresses  people's  needs  and  desires. We  don't  have  to  think  about  needs  or desires  as  something  that  are  so  different  and  imposing. Because  trans  studies  is  really  all  about allowing  us  to  cross  over  dichotomies, to  cross  over  boundaries, we  can  cross  over  this  dichotomy between  needs  and  desires. Then  if  we're  drawing  from  queer  theory, then  we  can  also  disrupt  that binary  ambivalent  HCI  would  be  HCI  that recognizes  and  studies  how multiple  seemingly  conflicting  truths can  exist  simultaneously. That  is  all  I  have  for  today. I'm  happy  to  take  any  questions  that  you  might  have. Yes. So  I'm  going  to  be  on  board  and  large,  Jamaica, I've  been  told  that,  and  I  found  it  informative, but  there  was  one  word  I  didn't  understand  it. Sure. And  that  was  Oh,  sure. Sorry.  Yes.  I,  I  should  have  defined  that. Gender  just  means  someone  who  is  not  transgender. So  someone  who  their  gender  assign of  birth  would  be  the  same  as  their  current  gender. Okay.  Thank  you. Yes. Thank  you  so  much  for  the  talk.  I  really  appreciate  it. I  was  wondering  if  there  was  maybe something  that  you  were  thinking  about  that  would go  beyond  human  centered  design. Because  I  know  that  we  talk  about human  centered  design  and  of  course, like  identity  is  a  huge  part  of human  centered  design  and especially  in  trans  technologies. But  I  wonder  if  there's  like  a  little  bit  of a  pitch  towards  something  that's  more  than human  or  something  that  kind  of  engages with  the  multiplicity  of experiences  beyond  just  ourselves. Are  you  talking  kind  of  about  like  beyond  humanness? Is  that  where  you're  going? Like  non  humans  or  like  environment, animal  sensibility,  you  know,  like  that  sort  of  thing. So  I  wonder  if  there's  like  an  extension  there. And  if  there's  like  this  understanding  of  gender  that  is fluid  that  also  exists kind  of  beyond  our  human  understanding. And  if  that  maybe  applies  in  some  ways. Yeah,  Kind  of  like  I've  thought  about  that  and that  is  something  that  comes  up in  some  of  the  design  workshops  we've  been  doing. I  kind  of  shy  away  from  it because  with  this  political  climate,  you  know, people  already  want  to  say  things  like,  oh,  well, if  we  allow  trans  people  in  bathrooms, then  we  have  to  put  litter  boxes  in bathrooms  for  the  people  who identify  as  cats  or  whatever. So  already  I  think  mainstream  society  has these  fears  about  trans  people  and  those are  connected  in  some  ways  to  these  fears. I  don't  know  this  field  super  well, but  what  I'm  thinking  is  probably called  transhumanism  in  reality. In  reality,  there  is  a  lot  of overlap  between  trans  people  and  furry. In  our  design  workshops, like  we  have  a  lot  of  people like  drawing  out  visual  interpretations  of  themselves that  are  far  beyond  what's  possible  as  a human  or  maybe  related  to  a  different  animal. But  as  a  researcher, I  really  like  worry  about  going  there,  you  know, like  this  challenge  because,  you  know, sometimes  stuff  comes  up  in  the  data  that  you're like  that  that  feels  too  risky. Like  I  guess  there's  a  difference between  the  political  positioning  of the  research  and  some  of  what  you find  in  the  data.  And  that's  totally  bare. Yeah.  But  we  definitely  like,  I  mean, my  post  doc  cat  Brewster  actually  like pitched  a  paper  to  me  where we  really  like  dove  into  that  stuff. And  I  was  like,  I'm  not  sure,  like  really  interesting. Right.  Because  if  we're  saying  people can  use  technologies  to Augment  or  to  change  the  way  that they  look  and  the  way  that  their  identity  is. Why  does  that  have  to  stop  at  the  boundaries  of, maybe  it's  me  being  too  conservative.  I  don't  know. Like  same  reason. I  probably  wouldn't  do  research on  transition  because  it's such  a  contentious  topic than  this  is  already  so  contentious,  unfortunately. So  Yeah,  I  mean,  I'd  love  it  if  someone  else  maybe. Okay,  thanks  very  much  for  this  talk. I  mean,  meeting,  I'm  curious  how  you  imagine. I  think  it's  cool  that  you  have  an  individual  or a  small  group  of  people  who  see the  need  for  this  technology  and  they  build  it. Maybe  that  happens  at  other  places  in  tech. I  wonder  how  you  envision maybe  reaching  those  people if  it's  just  somebody  who's  Yeah. Posting  this  map  or  posting  this  resource  and  do  you see  it  just  like  an  outreach  to the  individual  or  maybe  it's  like a  movement  more  broadly? Yeah,  that's  a  great  question. The  way  I've  thought  about  this  is  the  number  of  trends, technologies  that  exists  in  the  world  is  larger than  the  network  of  people  that  I've talked  to  for  this  study, but  not  that  much  larger. I  actually  have  personal  connections with  over  100  of  these  people. That's  a  way  that  we  can  actually  do  outreach  to  people. It's  just  through  the  connections  we've made  through  this  research  and  being  very embedded  in  this  community  when  we  get  to  that  point, which  I  think  will  be  a  couple  years  down  the  road, when  we  have  a  bunch  of  really  cool  ideas  for  designs, but  not  necessarily  the  ability  to  deploy  them. That's  when  I  would  maybe  reach  out  to  these  people. Or  reach  out  to  networks  of trans  developers  or  trans  entrepreneurs. People  who  want  to  take  ideas  and  do  something more  with  them  and then  try  to  make  some  of  those  connections. And  it  might  even  be  a  trans  technology itself  to  do  that  matching. In  your  experience  and  conversations  particularly, what  are  some  key  technologies  that  are  still  missing? Oh,  yeah,  that's  a  great  question. Some  of  our  previous  work, we'll  work  with  the  community  to  identify  needs. We  had  a  list  of  I  think 13  different  categories  of  needs. Some  of  those  can  be  addressed  with  technology  and  can't. One  of  the  big  needs  is  related  to  racial  justice. And  we  know  that  technology  cannot  solve  racism, it  can't  solve  transvia,  et  cetera. So  there's  probably  ways to  educate  people  about  that  kind  of  stuff. But  I  don't  tend  to  design for  some  of  these  systemic  issues  that really  need  to  be  solved  on  a  societal  level. But  there  are  other  ones  that are  not  technologies  that  solve  those. I'm  blanking  right  now. I  have  this  table  in  the  conclusion of  the  book  that  actually shows  exactly  what  these are  because  there  are  some  big  ones. If  we  have  like  a  second, I  could  even  like  pull  up that  table  if  other  people  have  interest. Okay,  so  this  is  still  not  final  version  of  the  book, this  is  still  draft  version, but  these  are  the  categories of  needs  that  we  came  up  with  with  the  community. So  you  can  see  all of  the  different  areas  that  are  important. Some  of  these  are  not  specific  to trans  people  like  things  like  housing, health  care  like  those  are  things  that lots  of  marginalized  populations  and  issues  with. The  first  column  is  the  types  of trans  Tech  that  currently  are  locus. The  second  column  was  that  they  could  but  are  not  yet. And  then  the  third  is  aspects  that  are  not  possible, things  like  systemic  issues  that are  not  possible  with  technology. I  think  your  question  was  about  Column  B  here. There's  opportunities, Technology,  I  think  in  document  related  things, like  a  lot  of  people  have  challenges changing  legal  ID's,  things  like  that. I  haven't  really  come  across technologies  that  have  addressed  that. We  need  more  definitely  in the  financial  employment  space, gate  keeping,  there's  always  room  for  more  health  care. There's  lots  of  healthcare technologies  that  are  addressing certain  aspects  of  It  or  certain  regions. But  there's  not  a  comprehensive  way for  people  to  find  health  care. Housing  resource  finding,  educating  gender  people. Legal  support  technologies  related to  either  avoiding  police  or  reporting police  harassment  and  violence in  identity,  racial  injustice. There  are  some  ways  that  we  could do  this  more  around  like  education, support  for  violence,  sexual  assault,  domestic  violence, things  like  that,  and  then  more  about  education. These  are  ideas  that  I, myself  came  up  with  for  this  table, which  I  don't  think  is  really  the  way  to  do  it. I  think  the  way  to  do  it  is  talking  to communities  and  doing  that  brainstorming  with  them. But  those  are  just  some  initial  ideas.  Yeah. So  I'm  curious  of  your  assessment  of  how communities  like  ki  are  doing  with their  reception  of  this  work  in  two  senses. To  what  extent  when  you, for  instance,  get  reviews  back, do  you  get  bigoted  hostility or  do  you  get  people  from  within  the  community? Being  hypercritical  of  work that  is  about  us  needs  to  be  really, really,  really  eight  levels higher  and  unfair  criticism  from  within. Oh  yeah,  Great  question. So  I  published  my  first  paper about  trans  stuff  at  CSW  in  2015. At  that  time,  and  for  a  few  years  after  that, I  felt  that  I  got  very  supportive  reviews, mostly  from  people  who  were  not  friends. Supportive  allies,  I  would  say. I  think  we  got  into  the  period, the  second  thing  that  you  mentioned where  there  became  more  of a  community  around  it  and  people were  feeling  a  little  gatekeeping, gate  keeping,  especially  because a  lot  of  those  people  were  like  early  in  transition. When  you're  early  in  transition, you  tend  to  feel  like  an  expert when  you  might  not  be  an  expert  yet. And  so  there  was  a  lot  of  that  for  a  couple  of  years. Then  more  recently  what  I've  noticed  is more  subtle  transphobia  that  I hadn't  experienced  in  reviews  until  more  recently. And  this  is  in  paper  reviews, this  is  in  grant  reviews. That  seems  to  correspond with  the  rise  of  anti  transcendent. But  overall,  I  mean,  especially  at  the  beginning, I  was  very  surprised  how  supportive and  accepting  the  community  was for  this  stuff  because  I  had  no  idea. But  I  am  a  little  troubled  by the  way  things  have  been  more  recently. Companies,  sometimes  when  you  want to  promote  acceptability  technologies, you  have  to  convince  people  that it's  actually  benefiting  for  everyone. Do  you  recommend  like  a  similar  strategy  for trans  technologies  and  would  you  have  concerns? If  we  do  that  then  it  would  actually  absorb the  expertites  responsibility  of technology  as  people  situations. You  mean  if  we  do  make  it  more  of  a  universal  thing, it  might  take  attention  away  from  the  argument. Yeah,  I  do  think  that  anytime you're  designing  for  the  most  marginalized  groups, I  think  it  does  end  up  helping  other  people. I  just,  one  example  is  there  are  plenty  of  people  who  are cisgender  and  will  continue  to  be  cisgender, but  might  experiment  with their  gender  identity  period  of  their  life. And  so  if  you're  making,  let's  say social  media  sites  more  inclusive  for people  to  experiment  with  gender, name,  pronouns,  appearance,  all  of  these  things. I  think  that  helps  lots  of  people who  are  doing  identity  presentation, whether  or  not  they  end  up  being  trans  or  not. I  think  it's  another  one  of  these  cases where  the  designing  for this  marginalized  community  will actually  help  the  broader  community. Y  have  two  questions  actually. The  first  one  is  on  curious because  it  seems  like  in  the  testimonies  or  examples, case  studies  that  you  presented, most  of  them  are  trans  feminine  people. I'm  curious  where  the  transmasculine  people are  within  the  landscape  of  trans  technology. The  second  question  is,  have  you encountered  any  trans  technology  that goes  beyond  the  boundary  of the  United  States  like  in  other  parts  of  the  world? If  so,  what  did  you  see? Oh  yeah.  Great  question. Yeah,  I  guess  I  didn't  notice  that this  presentation  was  maybe a  little  more  transfeminine  focused. In  the  book,  I'd  say  it's about  a  little  bit  more  trans  feminine, but  also  a  pretty  good  representation of  transmasculine  and  non  binary. M,  yeah,  there's  lots  of  technologies  for  transmasculine. What  is  the  mod  club  that  I  showed  the  surgery  online community  that  is  for trans  and  transmasculine  people  only. It's  a  lot  of  the  same  stuff you'll  see  in  the  rest  of  it, like  people  designing  for  people  like  them. Then  the  second  part  of  your  question, the  representation  across  the  world. The  limitation  here  is  that  myself  and my  research  assistants  only speak  English.  Well,  that's  not  true. I  only  speak  English.  They  speak  other  languages. But  we  were  doing  all  the  interviews  in English  meant  that  most  of  our  participants  were  US, UK,  Canada, Australia,  and  not  as  many  from  the  rest  of  the  world. But  we  did  have  some,  I  had  some  from  Japan,  Brazil, a  couple  European  countries, but  mostly  global  north that  definitely  influenced  the  results. Because  I  think  things  will  be  quite  different. I'm  sure  there  are  really  cool  and  really innovative  trans  tech  in  the  global  south that  like  I  would  never  know  about and  are  not  being  represented  in  this  research. And  probably  have  a  lot  to  teach  us about  interesting  and  important things  to  do  with  technology. That  was  wonderful  Oliver, let's  again  put  it  up  the  trash,  shine  the  time.