This is a living history interview with deadly Elmore Junior, the class of 958 at Georgia Tech 950 seven at the University of Georgia, and a member of the forum conducted by Marilyn summers on November the 24th, the year 2004. We're at the Georgia Tech Library on the Georgia Tech campus in Atlanta, Georgia. The subject of the interview today his life in general has experiences in school, in his business and with the forum, Mr. Dudley Elmore junior, and I'm going to call u w from here. It's great, fun getting to know you a little bit and I'm looking forward to hearing your story so we have to start with where were you born and when I'm an AT that land and witches Camera, an unusual item around here. I was born at Crawford Long Hospital and 930 6 May the 3rd, 1936, lived in Atlanta until I was in about the first grade and move to Dublin, Georgia during the Second World War. My father was the manager of a bus line that ran throughout South Georgia and transported troops to the various a military bases in August of Columbus and Savannah. Where did the family live when you were born? Where they have known all gone Avenue, right. Admit. Right. And then was Crawford Long downtown at that time? Yes, was and what my mom and daddy do in Atlanta, period, are they natives to know my mother is a native of Birmingham. My father was born in Western Alabama in a little town close to Carol to an Alabama, what we call reform. Reform Alabama. Little town in the little town and and he still had a scar own is live. He encountered when he was swimming across the Mississippi River is where it way, way, way, way with RIAA that did they meet and marry in Alabama somewhere yesterday it and then how did that happen to come to Atlanta? My father started as a bus driver and became a ticket agent in Chattanooga and subsequently was moved to Atlanta as a ticket age and then ultimately became Regional Manager for Southeastern greyhound lines. So with kind of serendipitous my app it from Alabama to Georgia to Atlanta because right. And as you're his first child? Yes. And only Chen is only tackle file. And it just happened that he was an Atlanta and that's why you were a native? Right? And at the time that you were born, he was still a ticket agent them like this, right. And was mama a housewife, a working person? Was Mama. She was a housewife at that time? Yes. Okay. So they took baby deadly home to argon Avenue right up the street, not that far from here, right. And you stayed here until you went to Dublin, which was what you said was in it was when I was in the first gray. Okay. So do you actually went to the first grade here in Atlanta or Samuel in Moscow? You did right here, sam only saying Samuel noon when Scoop. Okay. So your earliest I'll education was right here. Do you remember that? I remember the SKU lateral. Remember many of the teachers. I really don't remember living in the oh, yeah. Oh, at our member Oregon Avenue. Very well. We live next door to a family whose son was a member of the Flying Tigers during the war and he was my hero, you know, and I still say you have memories. Oh, yes. Does your father did not was that he was probably what beyond the age for going off to war because he was in unnecessary industry has potential. He was not drafted. And there's matter of fact, when we lived in Dublin during the war years, that was one thing easiest and we didn't have to worry about gasoline because you had if we had gasoline and why did you move to Dublin with that just a better place for where he had no RIAA was a man who had multiple interests in Dublin, Georgia named George Maurice. And the two big man in Dublin with George Mars and Herschel. Love it. And, and Mr. Morris had multiple interests. His essay, he had the standard old distributor ship, the Ford dealership, own the bus line, had farm and a interests and so forth. And he hired dead away from Southeast and grow them a whole new job Round of that, right? And it was part of the war ever to transport the right. So that was something that was coming home to you every day that you were very aware we were having a war very much. In my I had an uncle. My father's brother was in the The army and was on the firing line and he would ride. And now so remember one of our neighbors, lattice Mason lady, wonderful lady bake cakes for the neighborhood and so forth. One day she was just scream in and her son had been killed in action. So I came home to you. You had a very close touch with that. It was really bad. And you were you've finished the first grade here, you're still in the first grade when you went there? No. I'd finished the first grade. Second grade. Right. And now you've gone from so-called big city, although I don't know how big Atlanta was at that time, but it was a lot bigger than double enjoyable. Absolutely. So you went to ma pounds, a small town. We lived in a rented house. It was a wonderful home, but it was on a dirt street, you know, in Rhode Island. Shop was close by. It was owned a dirt street and we played cowboys and Indians and so said, despite the fact that there was a war going on and you are exposed to tragedy. He still had a pretty happy go on up to estimate. How long did you live in Dublin? Live there until after the war, we came to Atlanta. Actually moved from Dublin. Housing was a real problem at that time. And dad couldn't didn't like he could afford the house. And so we moved to Marietta and lived in a four unit apartment building that out as far as I know, is still layout. So a few years back and and had happy tabs there. And it was during that period of time. This is a this would have been about 49. And it was during that period of time that dad started his own insurance agency. You're actually was working with a firm that was was owned by some men that when the insurance agency businessy was still in the bus business and it was doing things at the same time that right. Okay. And that meant you were going to school and Maryanne? I did. I went to went to grammar school and Maryanne, I remember my days is Uncle Sam and play and and subsequently was in Marietta and the eighth grade and half of the ninth grade sang in the Marietta boys choir, was soloist. I still have a friend Marty team here who was in Marietta. He was a successful doctor and he reminds me all the time and my days as a boy. Oh yeah. They're very proud of you. Well, it was five minutes and great guy. So daddy got involved and more than just transportation or because he was an interest face and became aware of another and well, these these as I say, the man that own this bus line that he was working with when he moved back to Atlanta, owned an insurance agency and when the bus land was sold to Greyhound, they hired dad to be a solicit to specializing in the sale of insurance to transportation risk. And he did that the two or three years and then decided to go into business for himself in that same field. And so he was really a self-made man because he, you mentioned to me earlier on and he had not gone to college, but he must have been awfully smart for them to invest in him when I came onto a job like that. Well, maybe so but I mean, you know, it was a situation I thank you. Was basically on a commission arrangement. So if he didn't sell anything, they didn't have much outlay and dad laughing. They said, You know, I think if I'm gold star for them, I may as well Star for myself. So that's what it says. What primary logical thinking on his thigh go into been there long enough to figure out how everything worked, decided to start his own. And did he call that more insurance? It was deadly ill more insurers. That was the time that I was a senior data, yeah. All right. Okay. And threw himself into that business wholeheartedly. Right. And tell me now, you only stayed in Marietta. Tell what ninth grade. We moved to Atlanta in the second half of the ninth grade. And what precipitated that move? Well, just to the office was in Atlanta and just to be closer to work. And at that time, my mother was then working in a gift shop in bucket that was owned by a friend of my aunts. And so I think the combination of those two jobs brought them to lie on I'm bucket was chosen as the place to live. We live in the land mine apartments over ONE off of Piedmont. It's interesting because that was a very significant thing that you moved. Oh, absolutely. That that really had big impact on your life because you went to a different high school. And I think also the fact there was no fault and ask who made a big difference? Yeah. Couldn't have picked a better. You'd have been in charge, right? That's right. Before we go off on that, let's talk a little bit about your dad. Have a close relationship with her? Well, I did. In course, we were in business together for a number of years and and, you know, he had his strengths in I had mine and we seem to compliment one another. Let's nothing short of a miracle. Well, it really is, but always laughing. They say, you know, certainly there were times when we had to get in the room and close the door and talk to each other. But it was it did turn out to be very complimentary relationship, which is really pretty amazing. Yeah. Now, your father developed that insurance company from from absolute scratch? Yeah. And my mother was a bookkeeper and I would I was the manager of the football team. I have a bad ankle and sustained an injury, went out on a horse when I lived in Dublin. And so I couldn't play football, but I was around at all. I'm right in the middle of our webinar and football season wouldn't go on own. I I would work in the afternoons in the office and learned a lot about insurers. It really was a family that so there's no head. And your dad found in myths? He did. He was selling insurance to trucking companies, bus companies, in taxi cab companies. And in the instance of trucking companies, they found that there were, as a result of the financial responsibility law being enacted in Georgia in 1951, I believe it was a lot of the drivers, truck drivers were not eligible for standard insurance to drive their car from home to the dock. And so the man that owned the trucking companies were pleading with dad to find some way to provide insurance for these guys. And finally found a little company up in Illinois. That was Will. And as a result of some study that he had done, they were able to surcharge up to 25 percent of what was then known as the bureau, right. So they got a little extra premium for the extra exposure. And dad solely on the basis of having them try this. And if it was profitable, they could share some commission at the end of the year. And if not, then he would suffer the loss, whatever that might be. But anyway, it turned out to be profitable. And, and subsequently, as matter of fact, some agents found out about it and he began to provide this program to the friends of him who were in the insurance agency. So he was really discovering a whole new wheel and putting it into motion, whether it was happening somewhere else in the world, we don't know. But that's when it started happening here and lie on certainly in the southeast he was definitely the pon here. And then another part of his pioneering when we found that the list of people whose license had been revoked was available from the Georgia Department of Public Safety on a weekly basis. And my mom and I would kind of rotate going out to the Department of Public Safety and copying these names down by hand. And we would tell the person if they wanted to provide insurance, they could complete the application on the back of the letter. But if they want to take it to their hometown insurance agent and have them complete it, we would recognize them as their agent. And so it was like found money for these agencies all throughout the stage, the ventilator, and they began to stay in business our way. And we really created what is now known in the, in the insurance world is the brokerage industry for automobile insurance and hotel where this was going to be. I had no idea. And he's finally I got to the point where that market was, that part of our business was so significant that we we felt like we could eliminate the pursuit of cell an insurance direct cause it offended some agents. And brokerage was a bigger part of our operations. So we did it just evolved with it. And then we later ONE got into the hazardous lands of insurance. My father was a representative for Lloyd's of London, so he was willing to take a risk. Well, Anthony, that's right. He was willing to take away as right. And those are big thinkers, people that are willing to take risks. He was a quiet person, but very thoughtful. And, and I think that's probably where we complimented one another because I was the guy out knocking on doors and column. That, that quite as flat by i now let's go to the first time you went to high school. Transferred am in the middle of the transferred in the middle of the year. I came from Maryanne and one of the young boy, oh boy. One of the things that I remember there are two or three things I remember so vividly. One is that I didn't have a pair leave as my my blue jeans were kind of overall, they didn't I didn't have a bib, but I had the overall kind of everybody kind of laughed at me. Yeah, All you gotta get some leave as First off. So I got some Levi's and then I had a had a what's called a whistle which is a motor that you put on a bicycle. And I had had that and used it in Marietta. And so I had my who was a, you know, I use my wizard to deliver papers and, and everybody used to tease me about my was the big thing. Those days was a Cushman motor SKU to poll boys, more risky. So you weren't country. Now anyway, the new kid on the block flexure, a kid that had some appended to their bag, it's to bring like but fortunately, people were kind enough to me to kind of give me some guidance, you know, and it didn't take long for him when his side then the right graphic effect you caught right on it, got into the swing of it fast enough. I did. And you didn't know it at the time, but we know now looking back in history that what you were coming into was an era in, in school and public education and in the city of Atlanta. And that was the bucket boys become one of the bucket boy, right? It's a a stereotypical name and they put on it and I suspect a whole lot of people to have all these different characteristics. You didn't come from a well-to-do family. You weren't living in a high rise, I mean, in a mansion or one of the high rises, you're living in apartment complex and yet you fit in very nicely. You were a bucket boy, even though you didn't have all those other things. Well, that's true. But you know, there were, there were good number of people who were in mass same socio economic ladder. They were particularly no-fault. Yeah, I think novelists, people have gamified it to the point where it wasn't just everyday people, they made it sound like you our only from the silver spoon that why was that? And more so it knows, which had been founded about 34 years became before I came to Atlanta on it it certainly is known for that type person, but you just fit right in with that group, whether it worked out fine. Adults, you have fun. Oh, I had this, I had the greatest time and I think I got a real good education. I'm laughing. They say, the two things that are really learn most nor Fulton were worn how to type. And I never did. There was a there was a lady there who Jane Louis. I was in her home room and she persuaded me to take type and and and I really was so gratified that our and how but I had to keep it a secret a lot of times because I added more folks nodes. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it was a great scale. And then the second thing was a lady named Isabel do DE debbie. And she was a math teacher and was very determined to produce students who were qualified to go to Georgia Tech high-end. And I learned a lot about math as a result of Isabel do. And then maybe thirdly, there was a man named Franklin LB Wall, who was a Spanish teacher. And I took Spanish for a couple of years and fortunately have enough knowledge of the Spanish language to kind of do some of the people today just as a reserve food, why don't you get from all those years? That's right. Isn't it amazing that you can remember their names after all these years and that they had such a profound influence right here. So it was actually there that you started thinking about. You might think on a college somewhere sometime. Well, Miss do really got that link in that way. But I wanted to go to University of Georgia because they had an insurance program over there and they also had a lot of cute girls. I was so probably your priorities on the fly. You didn't map over there after my dad in Nike could afford to send me to college period, and especially a way that rise Ryan. So mom prevailed upon him to let me go to Georgia Tech and and and see how that went and hard with it to get into Georgia Tech that time. Well, we had Tess and I guess I qualify. There are no promises that they're going to keep you awake. Did any of your friends go to yes. Quite a few. I AS as matter of fact, one of my good friends, Bob who was was very close friend and still is, went attack and, and and my friend Jean Marie and now always in land again. Every time I see it, every time I see Janie reminds me of the fact that when we went line we write together MOI, level low or a half Iran for freshman class president and lost that election. In a very narrow bow. I mean, you came to takeaway right into power to the top of my word. Well, let's talk about that now. You came tech and 950 for Is that correct? That's right. And we already had a few women. Very few. They had common 52. First two and then four and then six. By time you got here, we have doubled our population. I think we might have ten in 1954. Maybe. I'm trying to remember very few though, considering the student by the path length, the first graduate was in my class. She married George reason. I QM I'm Karla Paul, pretty polymath, even post yeah. So you did get some exposure to women but they were definitely amino are absolutely. Yeah. You, you were lucky if you saw one in a day, right? So a one like Georgia, that was for sure. And I'll tell you another thing, Maryland, when I came to Tech, I was very flattered to be to have the opportunity to join about three fraternity say that. And there was a man who, whose daughter was in my class at North Fulton. And he was very interested in this, a fraternity and hit and nurtured me for a good long while. And I guess as a result of that Bob heel and I both pledge day-to-day together and made my grades and was graduated, was initiated in ASA fraternity at Georgia Tech. That had a significant influence on me and I think they encouraged me, the leadership within the fraternity encouraged me to run for fresh so that the National really what motivated me to do when you got here to tack and the fall of 50, for how long to how well prepared you for the academic rigors? Had they done a good job at North? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Well, one of the comfortable ones that I had was very comfortable. But interestingly enough, you know, I, I, I, even today, I feel that I use grammar whale and I understand it. But I don't know how to diagram. My wife and my mother-in-law, tell me about how to diagram, but I won the essay contest in my freshman year at Georgia Tech. How amazing is that? And I'm not sure I know whether it was just trash kind of stories are really was but anyway, how you made your mark, That was a good thing, right? Did you commute or live on campus while I lived and how old norm? Interestingly enough that I started out, that idea was it I was going to commute to save money, right? I'll say money and and but we felt like the, the experience, if I really were going to try to get to Athens in Hammond dormitory experience would be great. And a lot of my friends, Even today, we're door might you know, I I got Tom Hall. That's where you make your found always had really a wonderful, let's say your parents did rely on that and let you move into ideal, aren't they deal? That was that was a good thing. You did your dad, he lay down the law, but your grades, what he expected from you? Did he not have to he and a half to me and it was just kind of understood that that was the program. Isn't it interesting when you look back at those times, how those things were communicated without ever having to be put into work, right? You would have rather taken a bullet to let the man down, right? That's right. And I think we don't put in youngsters anymore. Well, certainly not to the extent that it came about in those days, yeah. The only real problem I had at Georgia Tech was canvas tree. And and I I've had you had chemistry in high school? I know I had physics, but that you could do that or I'm sure you weren't prepared, route would prepare. It was almost like going into a language that you are unfamiliar with. And one of my former classmate, Jon strictly are now still a man. Exactly. We had to repeat here Maastrichtian. So that was the one thing he had to do. And if that wasn't bad enough the first time I had to do with a federal law. Now that was a time in the early fifties, mid-fifties when there were a lot of the GI Bill had been passed after the war. And there were still a lot of veterans coming back and going to school, so it was a bit in them. But from 950 2019 until after the Korean War, the campus was a mixture, rough older students and younger students and all that. But it was also an optimistic campus wasn't always the war was over. And even though Korea was coming on and in many people had to commit to that, you would just young enough that you didn't have to make a commitment to the melody. I square it. So there was a little more lightheartedness for you actually qualified for the fourth class vacation because of my ankle. Almost lost my foot in this AX and AY and even today my leg is an ancient 38 short. So that was something that was early on that you carried Pharaoh rise, right? When you think back of that time, I've come in from bike had where you had a great social life. I'm sure that was one of the marks of the bucket boys, right? You guys know how to have a good time. Innocent time. By today's standards, totally innocent. Oh boy. I'm sure. All you have to do is look at the media today to know you were raised like a baby lamb, narrative Liang shrine on and it was a big deal when you stayed out. Late at night and that sort of mine. Had a good time. Yeah, We had a great time. And then when you came to attack and you were in the fraternity, it was again, there were a lot of fun things going on. Why I thought that was an educational experience for me. It really was because there were aspects of our life then that IGC never see. And most of it was good. The influence was generally was good. Our pledge trainer was a former Marine Lieutenant ago. He was that older inflow? Absolutely. He was really Hill been determined own discipline. It was a great experience and the expectation again from them why she would do very well in school. I didn't want any dead heads around where you had to make it to be initiated. That was the first pursue. And one of the other cool things. Once you are here at the glory day of football, your baby dad with a coach and well, interestingly enough, one of my friends at North Fulton father was I don't know whether he hated ROTC department or whether he just worked here as a professor. But as a result of that connection as a boy scout and they had Boy Scouts as ushers in a gray area. And so asked bit, not 10th, 11th, and 12th grade years, I assure you ever even n was very much a way of texts football all void here for the, certainly the last of times everyone I ever taught from that when I call the golden era of age of Bobby, that it was a euphoric feeling, really a part of all that. So you must have had some big time that they are legality of that first year was pretty exciting time because of some of that, you know, it was difficult for me to make the transition from tech to Georgia. Sometimes the right thing, the easy thing, that's true about that time he had already made yourself pretty comfortable hearing you would've enjoyed stay. And you made very significant foreign. Matter of fact, when the class of 58 had their first reunion, and I don't remember whether it's five years or ten years or whatever it was. I came back and still have a picture of that group. I think I've done that a couple of times while you were very much a part of I we had talked earlier about Sam Griffin and when Sam was great for an and and we we unfortunately hadn't been in touch with him recently, but we used to communicate pretty regularly. You know, I thought about another friend that did. I spent a lot of time with by Parker and was always so kind to me. We were essays together and travelled. A connection really makes your line a tiny gland made all the difference. Make sure like I'm from fell. But you came home that summer after finishing two successful while actually ran quarters. Right. So you finished up your quarters and digital back toward your dad that summer than I did. And as a matter of fact, I spent that summer traveling, call an own agents throughout the state of Georgia. So you were really after hours. I really was work in them and that was back in the days before they had a holiday. You know, you always had to stiff you in way Cross Georgia. You had to stay in little different kind of motion when we got dead. And one of them today, they call them Fleabag apart. Good re-read. So you really were muttering. You are having some very muttering experiences and helping your dad grow the business and came back to school in the fall. But thinking all the time that you should be where you could get exactly what you are looking forward to seeing. Well, I was excited about the opportunity to, to get a professional education and ensures they had a, compared to the program that they have, the University of Georgia today it was relatively insignificant. You learned a lot about the fundamentals. There was a man named Jeff Cobb who was a professor that meant a lot and they and I were talking about at UG, at UGA. Did you actually make the transfer in the fall of 1955? Okay. So yeah, so and our transfer there's a second quarter sophomore, Why didn't do poorly it take except for that chemistry. And so I transferred some extra hours and I'll good guy if day now is that first core of which is the normal load at the University of Georgia. You take 20 hours at Tech in a different environment. And so I decided that, that next quarter that I try 20 hours and CI with one of the things that I had to do with my father was to agree to pay for half of my expenses that University of Georgia because by this time he really wasn't 2009. You will hate. He just I don't know if it was just he really didn't want me to go to college period, you know, And I I don't think he was trying to make it for me, but he just felt like if I did out or earn it. And so I love that good. I don't have any remote validate against them at the time. My dad Tough on need a really wide and I made I didn't have I would say your mom with kind of a softening airflow and secondly, the value on it. But I started out, I was taken up laundry in the, in the various fraternities around and made a deal with new way laundry to, you know, to let me be their age and in effect. And then I do things. I saw an ad in the Wall Street Journal. He had some that was back when those rubber shower shoes they called him. Like for Hong Kong? Yeah, the flip-flops now way, way. That was very new at that time and I bought a gross. I got paid about 40 now incidence of pyre and I sold them for 350 and I put them on the reveal, you know, and as solo size and then they did well now got two more grows. So I was doing crazy stuff coming up with the bot and I actually really did pay my way. But you learned a lot. Oh, it was a great experience. Yeah. Those are the kind of things when you have hand down at two, I had a paper route for example, in and you learn how to deal with people that don't pay you. And you know, you gotta have enough courage to go knock on the door and look, I'm in awe balls and tell him you watch me. Oh yeah. And I had the same situation when I was in the laundry business. Some people wouldn't pay you and I, you know, cause I was given moby or once a week or once a month where I was. And some of you good friends say y is k Pi you right now, Well, you know, you got a decision to make. Yeah. So it was a great learning experience and course you've got accounting the jet go through as well. So all of that law of the house. Wow. Where did you live when you are out there to to go into it? I started out in the fraternity house and my roommate was a man from Atlanta name lamb and Johnson. And interestingly enough, lamb and had gone Lama was a year ahead of me, but he had gone to Georgia Tech and then transfer to Georgia. So emphatically, yes. Nice. Nice to have that experience. Yes, you fit in good and then I'll work out. All right. Well, how was in all of the difference in the background of so many of the fraternity brothers that I had there, they will from more from over the state. A lot of the tech fraternity brothers were from out of state. Wonderful people, you know, but just just different kind of folks. It was a it was a good learning. All your wonderful learning and your adjusted nicely. I didn't have any data sharing for those dye plant that was back in the days when you'd go to a football game with a coat in town, you know, at least a TA thank graduate from a coat and dad are nothing but a tie. I'm not girls to really draft there really a, you are exposed to all those gorgeous women. There were lots of women back. It was asked and they had little place in the back of the return to house called The Shack, and it was a great place to dance and so forth. And I met this girl, it was a senior in college and I fell in love about the first week I was over there. And then when she left where that changed my scenario and I don't know it just ours have always enjoyed dating and no one people and so I never did have a real stereo. They actually had a fair, full social life or their affective were involved in everything you could find time for? Well, I was but but not, you know, I'm still having to work. You've got a lot of what you could buy ours care and that extra load and I didn't have an opportunity. They will, they will do a group in the fraternity that will very political. And I was always interested in politics, but I just never did pursue that over there because I just didn't add harmful. Right. Who knows what would have happened had you done that? Well, maybe then one of our calendar. Now, who knows? So you got for a school a lot faster than you anticipated idea. And did you find that the focus on insurance was helpful to you? We're definitely. But you know, you mentioned one professor, so they make a GIF car. He he became your mentor at UVU as a mentor there there was a there was another man who actually headed the Insurance Program and he also taught college law. His name was a Aldo Charles, and he was one of these guys. It was so funny because he was the early believer in buying term insurance and taking the difference between what you would pay for term insurance and permanent insurance and invested in your own account rather than let an insurance company. The light buy term and invest difference. Well, he was very profound about is thinking about that. And, and, and he always had a story about Herman Town Major, somebody noisy. Now won't add them, not do harm and might not like me. He was just a card after she ever get sound you knew Griffin? Oh, yeah, sure. Cuz I mean, that was a privileging. Absolutely. Yeah. We had a lot of conversation about other thing because he was he was a lawyer by training. He said now and we took college law course. And he says, If you haven't learned anything else from this course, I want you to know one thing. When you get out among the lawyers you don't get DID so you better do them first. Here's a care. Yeah. That sounds like had a great insight into what's there. Anybody yet taught them their first year when faculty have any mentors, they're really don't. You don't remember which. One of the things, for example, in mechanical drawing was. It was an interesting course for me of all things for me to remember that. And then try and remember my professor who felt close to. And it's funny you mentioned that because most people hate it because I don't know, I'll try that I really liked it. You know, you learn how to do all that. We just do. Most of my it didn't hurt that hang out chill. I I've heard lattice and stories that people who spent hours and hours and hours and hours on a project only to have a red pencil go across that in our breakthrough. Little harder though, not a bad thing for you though. No. Did you ever get exposed to Friday, learn new and drown proofing? I did. As matter of fact, boy, that what a great thing for you to bring a man hometown you out. Thought I was going I had I had a you know, they use a buddy system and they tie you with rope and may put you were you supposed be able to wiggle and so forth will allow wiggle in our gap between the bottom and the top. And my buddy didn't come to get me. And I'm Ta yeah, I got a mouth. Well, I mean, I thought I was going to die. But that's the one thing I remember about radially new in that course, but it was a wonderful experiences. It turned out It's been very worthwhile for me. So you haven't got heart failure. Not just scary failing with a really spooky how did how did you survive that? He finally came and poor me. He was just very slow here. Body were negligent act. They keep getting distracted. Some Wilhelm Von mir, his name, I'll remember it. Maybe assistance. Y. Let's hold that against them. So, you know, it's kind of neat because the two schools terrible rivalry on the football field, but compliment each other in many ways and you're unique and that you've had an experience and both of them passed really about this, been interested in because I've been very much involved in the university or more so since graduated in before cloud the things within the university. And I became chairman of the board of trustees, for example, University of Georgia Foundation. And I used to say Now, don't let anybody know that I had with my experience at first, you know, that that's something you don't talk about over here. That I finally gotten insisted to that and talk a path. But I think it's cool, but you had the best of both really. I mean, you got to be a part of the Baghdad Golden Era, right? And yet still turned around and went back up. And while the bus was the coach, you know, when I first went to the University of Georgia and his daughter Nancy was a year younger than I am and was a great friend and I remember going to their house and and, um, last Christmas, maintenance man in our office build and gave me a book, it's wildly bullets. And the lady who was a radio announcer call no ifs, ands and right rainbow in it matches the fact that people went to his home often and actually with a very good friend of poppy dad. Oh, I know there was no right and no we'll pits between them. They were very close by and yes, even though they vide for the same students, recruited the same grounds, they it's, it's really a mark of their sportsmanship if they were perfect gentleman on and off the ferrite. And by today's standards, extraordinary Joe. What's going on, not just sports pages these days, which is really quite astounding. So I think it's cool that you've had both of those good experiences. Now you graduated from University of Georgia in 1957. Say you were a year ahead of yourself, technically speaking, as far as all the bucket boys were concerned, you are out and about before they were, right, you've got sprung as they say. And of course, most of my friends were went into the military service right after marriage when he didn't have an audience to do. So. When we see you really were two years or three years ahead of some of them because you were already in the business world. And that's exactly what your dad had in mind, was that Jews are going to step into that business world than you had done what you were gonna do. And now it's time to bring home the bacon, right? Tell me before we forge ahead into your business life. Looking back on those years, you had very privileged education years, a lot of good experiences. Well, how do you sum it all up? What do you think the first role value? The fact that I was educated in public facilities, that was a great experience for me. And while I hope that you'll all children with private schools and value the fact that they got a good education. I feel that I got an exceptional education. And, and and I got exposure that you just don't get elsewhere. So not only did I get a good education with exposure, I developed a lot of self-confidence. And I think in summary, it's, it's probably those things that I value most data value the opportunity for being able to go and demonstrate that I was capable of carrying more weight. Again, that reflects in the self-confidence that I had then and is carried forward and I have 9. Yeah, It makes you makes you who you are because you succeeded as it went along the way. But you know, Maryland, there's one thing that hadn't come out and my background and it didn't really have anything to do with education that you reflect back on some of your exposures. And when I was when we were live and in Marietta, a friend and my father owned a small grocery store and as a result off, made a connection with the colonial bread, my end. On Saturday mornings it for a colonial bred man would come and pick me up and I would work on the bread truck and we'll talk and eighth or ninth grade. Right. And and you know, you I'm from that I learned from that I subsequently became occur pop. I worked at a grocery store in the produce department or something. I mean, I don't know what it is that develops the work ethic and some people and not in others, I don't want to stay. But you wouldn't trade off of its name from there, our unique HM, HM, taught you something else about your fellow man. And Mary. Hi, you get along well with the more knowledge you know, about other people dying felt Oh absolutely. But, you know, I heard the story about the twins, one of whom was extremely successful, one of whom was a bomb. And when asked separately the question, why are you successful? He said it will cause my father was an alcoholic and he asked the guy the same question. This is called My phones and alcohol. For now the way this nicely Medicare. Yeah. So anyway, it was a fortunate confluence for you. Your father didn't encourage you to go to higher education, but you already grass that from a mentor person, somebody who told you that would be a value for you when you were in high school. This dues. And it's so nice that you gave her credit for that and your mama could see the value in it. And so you weren't exactly rebelling against your dad's or two, we're proving to hammer that you could do it. And every step of the way was just part of developing and forming your character. And he probably was just thrilled to death when you did graduate. He might not have seen it because it wasn't part of his experience himself. But I'm sure it was thought it did they come to your graduation? I remember that I didn't go to market. Whenever my them you didn't got the circumstances but there was a viewer. One of those guys are then a lock answer. Broke your mama's heart, no dowry. So I don't know what the problem was there, but he calls hours worked. Oh, no. You probably where you are kind of a workaholic, a Taipei going, going, going guy all the time. Now let's start about that. When you got out of school and you had a degree, did your dad give you a position in the company or did you just go back mean schlepping around on the road or what did you do? Well, at this time, what was the name of the company? We're still Dudley are more insurance. Okay. So he didn't say Hansen? No, no, no. This would have men in September of 1957, there was a man that was had a had a small interest in the agency that had a an insurance company background. And he was kind of a mentor to me and teaching me the fundamentals of omega, right? Saunders essay you and the ERS. Okay. He's passed away now, but that they used to have a big wheel that you determine the amount of you would prorate an annual policy. And he taught me things like how to use a wheel and how to evaluate risk from an underwriting point of view. And in there we had agents calmness all the time about problems and how big of a company had your dad ground in a sense here. How many employee that time we had? We had one primary lady whose name was Barbara Bowers and Barbara was was the guru. Know that? Yeah. And my mom was the bookkeeper and he had Saunders and had another lady named Lucy. Lucy you found and I and add that pretty small I'm writers for our operations. Yeah. And you know, I was doing everything out and one of the things that your files were always hard to find. It seemed like there was always a file on somebody's desk, you know, not in the file role. And so that was a big job for me back then, trying to keep files straight and to add yeah. I mean, I just did everything everything everything in the office, whatever need. I even did dictation Lanier dictaphone machine with the blue record, you know, I use get so mad cause my dad didn't he was not very orderly and his dictation and I'd be stenographic. They learn very much following. Over time. As a result of change in the law in Alabama. We opened an office in Birmingham to serve the state of Alabama. And there was a young man who was a nephew of a fellow that had was was bad in working for us. I guess. This was after he had Saunders had left. We hired a man named Robert hi. And Roberts. Thank you. Was it was either his nephew or cousin. Had somebody that lived in Birmingham and we put him in charge of the Birmingham off. And so it's a one man off and I was doing that source. And then subsequently I got to travel the state of Alabama column and own agents asking for this missing in Maryland, that our cell and the concept of what we used to call substandard insurance is now non-standard. People didn't like the category. Can, they will need Benny fly. So we said, Well, you're not standard unit, but I'd go into an independent agent's office and all of our distribution was through the independent agent who represented at and then traveled long hard outcomes. And I'd go in and say I'd like talk to you about G non-standard auto business and they said, we'll have horrible, we don't do that. We don't want Foo those people, you know? And so our cell and the concept that there was an opportunity there and we were the source for that opportunity. And you could show it with the proper black guy, they sell it wasn't she said once before I found money for myself. But the deal with and persuading them to listen tonight. New land could be a persuader. Well, it was a it was a wonderful experience for me. And it was not cause I had any training yet, bomb a lot of mistakes. But over time you begin to learn what to say and what not to say. My most difficult part of that was they had a look Uganda balls, you know, And finally I understood myself. Yeah. Make them as right. And so you are fairly successful on how many years did you spend doing that kind of stuff? Well, the next came Florida. I did the same batch and process and then it got to the point where I was responsible, we normally the manager would have the responsibility for running the office and also production. And I was just complimentary to what was going on. And then it got to the point where we would try and coordinate ideas among the three branches. So I'd go in and find out what the procedure for doing this that was AND and then I'd go to the next office and find if they were doing better over here. So you could make one whale network February by share those ideas. And that was a good experience. And I got there, I just got to the point where I knew the operational side of the business like the back of my hand. And now is. And meanwhile, all the offices were thriving and growing and it was getting to be a bigger DRI figured out how many years to develop it into a real solid company. Well, after I graduate from the University of Georgia, one day I was having lunch with a dear friend of mine, Richard cohorts. At the time there was a firm called Courts and Company. They were investment bankers and securities brokers. They sold the wood or Richard. Now I haven't launched talking about what you will do when you grew up. And this is back in 1960, IGS. And said Richard, you've got somebody that's working for you whose father? Is President of an insurance company that I understand is having some trouble and they are in a market that I'm interested in. It hit this company had been formed by a group of black businessman and they will underwriting predominantly homeowner's insurance within the black community. And the loans had been made by Atlanta Life Insurance Company, which is a local black insurance company, Life Insurance Company and they will be in service by citizens trust, which was the black bike you and some wonderful man, fellow name yates and another man named male the Milton had a drugstore chain, Yates and Milton. And they were principles in the firm. Anyway, I said. And there was a young fellow named Ted Alexandra Junior, who was the first black securities salesman hard and save Atlanta a worthy cause and cup. And I said how about asking teratoma for enriches, said How about ask and Ted whether or not there's any opportunity for us to have a role in helping them solve their problem if in fact that's true. And Richard Call me about two or three hours later and said, Man, you write about that they got some problems. Here's who to call. I don't want anything out of it. Audios. Sit great Now or you have now. You need to get you Dan and Bob because I got some gray hairs. Days guys made some age and so I talked to Tad's father, TM Alexander, who had an insurance agency of his own and coincidentally had been doing business with us. So it was an easy conversation. And I set up an appointment and we, we met with a group of them. And to make a long story short, I could write a book about Jeff thought. But we we wound up B9, control of a company called Southeast and fidelity fire insurance company. And their address was Auburn Avenue and and I had an opportunity to work in the home office or the company, spent many a night down there and felt totally secure a walk and out at 12 o'clock at night on Auburn Avenue back. And anyway, and we change the complexion or that company bought back, letting them underwrite a part of this non-standard auto business that we are producing and grew the company and that's how we got into the company. So Azure is that a profit? If it was a it was a good experience with because we didn't have any money. We we have the know-how. We we we were able to work it out where we were laughing and they say we put it on the credit garden. Got a little by far was the risk total unpatriotic makes bad thing. That was a good situation and it really, it enabled us to be the manufacturer of what we were selling. And 9, and that changed our lives. Submit and there's two, right? We close that CEO. I was wrong. It was it was more like seven d and we close that. So you in 71 it took us almost two is nine months and negotiate with those guys to get it all, put them away. I want to go. Or what point in time did your dad tones the name of the company right after that we we changed it to more Group Incorporated as the holding company and then the agency operation was still Dudley, I'll more insurance in Southeast and fidelity we eliminated far southeastern fidelity insurance company was the company side, so the whole company own those two entities and that's that's and we so Mall Group Incorporated in 1979 to a firm out of Cincinnati American financial cooperation. And dad retired and I stayed on when I had a three year covenant not to compete in that industry. And I work for those people for little over five years. Solvus or dad when he retired. I see. Right at 70. So he fulfilled the good, correct? Right. Yeah. Well, I think content point. Who acquired was he ready to let that valley? He seemed to be he had he had really turn most of the operation of the company, Obamacare way. And I thank you's intrigue by doing some other things. The invested in some real estate in interest and did some other things about me. He he was not totally retired, but he was totally odd and insurance business. He a self-made man. You said he had never had any formal higher education. Bryan should've had a lot of satisfaction or what he had accomplished at that point in time. Thank you. Thanks. Where along this scheme of time Did you come into the group called the Forum? Was it through the YPO? It was through RPO and went into John why deal? With it had been in 79. No. I was a whopper you before you were we fall in that home and I think I became a whopping 76. We started the form group in September of 79. So I had been a lot to you for 23 years, maybe four. And last why you came across the gentleman that I ultimately form the form. Right. What happened is the rebel chapters the largest at that time and I think maybe still is the largest chapter of YPO anywhere. And that would have questioned the Southeast South wherever that why not? It was it was Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Those forced us all. So that's just the South and a south end. There was a I don't know whether it was jealousy. There was a lot of concern within YPO about the fact that we were so large when they try to get us to to split the chapter. And we were not willing to do that. And so one of the compromises was that we would develop small groups within the rebel chapter called forums. And they, and they had done it in california successfully one time. So there had been a precedent in our forum was the second form to be hidden within YPO. First meeting we had was in well, I missed the first meeting. I was not invited until the second meeting. The one I went to was in September of 1979 at the Holiday Inn at the airport. And and we have been meeting once a month, September 1979 code I've ever thought cutting guys. Did the other groups and the Ravel chapter form, whether other form, good font they have banned. But we are the only ones that have their own. Well, there are prevailing groups who've been added a long time, but none as long as we and add it the term YPO had a they thought they had a requirement that once you graduated from YPO, which you do at age 49, that you automatically ceased to become a member of the forum? Well, we decided when more believable forms together. So we had to that, that dropped out as a result of that and they were replaced in. So we basically have had 14 people enough or well, so that September 79, there were 14 of you that show that run that right. Like you say, other than the two that fell out and then we'll replace the state 14 try every month, every month. Thumb for commitment that the unbelievable. Well, we have an attendance requirement is a matter of fact, there was a little laxity in that early on. As matter of fact, we had to excuse one of our members who was not diligent about being there, who subsequently wanted to come back. But it was not we didn't think was willing to make the strong commitment even then for 10 minutes. If a comment not a lot. I mean, you caught flak if you're sick or something or yeah, catastrophic happens but in general, run a business once a month. Right. And add a where you are I went from. That's correct. You will have some out-of-town members who who really go to a lot more trouble than those of us who live locally. Because now that I'm spending a lot of time in Florida, sometimes I have joined the right category. But what we found is that because a number of us have since sold our company, there's more leisure opportunity and we're, we're finding that we enjoy going. We'll have a made up for a meeting, but it'll be somewhere besides that. I don't have a social at right now. The reason for it in the beginning, the reason for YPO is so that people can gain from other people's experience. Their slogan is to be bred a president's throughout the exchange. And that's exactly what, what YPO is all about. You talk about your business and they try to introduce some family improvement ideas and in marriage ideas and that sort of thing in the various meetings and in the forum context. It's it's supposed to be a little bit more intense and extremely confidential. When we started out, we of course, we're focusing on our business in the success and they use the failures always being easy. I mean, more difficult to talk about than the success. And finally, you get to the point where you realize that you, you can trust these people. And so you go, you open the kimono a little bit more, that that really would be the operative word is trust. Absolutely, absolutely trust in each other. On a half-hearted changing agenda as time has gone by because life change of us, it's certainly guys all from one kind of a problem to a different kind of a problem. And the support you get from these folks. We we lean on each other. That's what keeps us all prompt. And, you know, some perhaps more so than others, some in different ways. We had one of our members who had who developed what we consider to be a severe problem with alcohol. We confronted him, challenged him. He's been a member of a successfully for God. I don't know how long the row anyway, events and intervention we did. We've gone through three divorces. Tie dying. I mean, that's called life. Now, tell you, it might have been serious stuff when it was just money and business, but now we're talking light, bright lights and death in thickness and his family problems, you know that here about and try to understand how Java magic to verite change. I just don't have one. And there's, there's just so much dependence I think, upon one another and, and, you know, one of the wives of our forum members when we were together, ocean wreath this, this past winter. So every time you guys get to get, I just see so much love within you. Our understand why you're not trying to tell your story somewhere. And that's really kind of what got this thing going. Why are you telling right? It's that trust and that haven't somebody to hold onto when life pulls the rug out from under you that become so important. And it's very much like paternity on a different scale. I mean, fatality. You we're all on the same boat at the same time. But they're there wasn't there was a commitment to each other, but there wasn't an obligation to a teller. And the forum actually created an obligation to each other. Absolutely. Who aware did it start that you would not be competitive in business? Well, that was one of the requirements for membership. They tried to separate the group to the point that there was no competition wrong. And it did, it. Was it a difficult thing to evolve? No, not at all. The closest thing I guess I had was John Kay who is an insurance agency business. But I don't know optician they would do in business with John was on my board as a matter of fact, when we had our insurance company. And part of the reason for that would be, of course, the confidentiality that you want to be able to discuss what was worrying you are firing. Was it helpful to you as a businessman? I know it was helpful to you FMR, but as a businessman, Yeah, because people give you a different perspective, what would you typically would do if you if you were about to undergo a major restructuring or major high or within your organization or just magic decisions. You go to the forum as a board, as it were and say, these are the ideas that I have and this is why can you come up with something better? All can you can you shoot holes? And what I'm doing? That's basically what everybody tries to do. Now the interesting thing about it is there's no fear about the others giving you advice. The key is whether or not I'm willing to accept their advice. I'm just going to ask. Yeah. Okay. Did you find that you could oh, it didn't happen that way. You'd have to get the transfers. But did you find that people could actually change your mind or tamper the way your attitude will have always tried to keep an open mind about change. And I had a guy tell me one time, it's been long time ago. We said when you when you're thinking about serious change, I recommend you go out and get as much advice as you possibly can and do what you won't do any way. Different than they had been. Add, add, add, didn't agree with that. But as a result of adolescent and you know, a fellow that I work very closely with, who was my chief operations officer is a guy that that input from. And I would have an idea and he said, Well, it's like about maybe a little bit different slant on that. If it made sense to always willing to do that and vice versa. That was, it was a wonderful partnership. Knows at all. Most of you had strong father figures in your life? Many at many of the form members were in family businesses and that's how they came to that position. So they had strong father figures and those fathers to aged and passed away with time because that's what life is all about, about a cycle. So they were there for you. It's like having a brotherhood that support you've been there, done that. Each one leaving the other one to, to understand those cycles? Probably to the moon. We've all had some discussion about our father invoices. And a mother influences Holiness, just that, but also the influence of your wife. And how they're all separate category. They really are. An Eastern thought about that. May will talk about my dear wife some way along. Yeah, what I'm talking about family, but as it relates to business, when we went so our compensate this last time to the Hartford. My COO, who was very much involved in the business and discretions concern in the sale of our business, chose not to discuss this with his wife. And and in my instance, every day was a new day and every discussion was that I had with my wife, in some way had something to do with things that are related to the CEO. And it's just a difference in your relationship or whether it's a partnership manner in which you go about Amina and math. My friend has a wonderful relationship with his wife, but it's just different. And that's part of it to saying that because you get a much more intimate level with the form members than you do with your business dealings. Generally speaking, you see how different relationships can be brought in, talking to some of the forum people that didn't have a whole lot of conflict in their life there with that eye opening experience of that, some people do have conflict in their life. Your children don't always do which particularly had in mind for them to do. And as you said, you've already had experienced divorce, which is painful because your friends everybody's friends. It's really a unique organization. In the beginning it was all business, but he gradually, you all got to be so attached to each other that you did bring your families along to things we do. In fact, you stage defense for families so that you could learn, not learn from each other so much, share with each other. Personally, you do start talking about you. You want them to move ******? Yeah. You want them to know who's comment and when that, when the death occurs, you're the first guys there to offer the constellation. And divorce is like a death at the end of something. And so that has to be grieved and process too. And people do ridiculous thing sometimes and you guys stand there and hold them accountable for ridiculousness. It gets very complicated. Very complicated. The process of recovery from death and or divorce or arduous onto themselves. And in many instances, I think we've probably had more difficulty in being heard for those after the fact advanced than we have before. Why? Oh, yeah. Because I'll have to come back the same table again. Whether you approve or disapprove and met pth. I'm not pot pie of the sacred too. So it's trust on a farm being bigger than yourself so that you can make peace, that you not feel that way about it. I think you're wrong. It's 25 years old. Who would've thunk it, huh? Restaurant. Especially because each one of you in your field and in your chosen public life is definitely extroverted. Definitely active, definitely. But each in a different realm. And so collectively, you've accumulated enormous honors, immense accomplishment, and yet still trust each other. Don't feel threatened by each other. And there's no competition. Which of course, the major male characteristic competition. What is there? So one thing that you talk about it, a group of male, there's going to be that they're competing for attention or no on whenever. I think we will go out of our way, just the opposite. As matter of fact, avoid dying I could do to help somebody else in that form, would I do that hesitation? Not even think about whether they were home and you want to layer now, what do you think about the future or the farm? I think it will continue. Obviously there there are our lives that still leave need to be played out. Some people still had not retired. Maybe never will and maybe never shy and perhaps never shoot. You know. I was real concern about what I was going to do after we sold our insurance company because I've made it clear I've gone through to sales and I had made it clear on the second sale that I wouldn't I wouldn't do that nine that level. Right. And so I got out of the insurance business and I didn't know for a while what I was going to do. And did the forum help you find a well, we talked about it a lot. There was another member who subsequently had a lot of angst about it and read a lot about it and went seminars. I never was that nervous about it frankly, but but he was a good support. And and I think over time, I've always been pretty happy with myself in general. And I feel like I've found the way and I will engulf boy, there's nothing like a vacuum. Just have a whole world, Russia. And if one of the busiest paper on the faith as well, I just decided our most one hour's work and I didn't have enough to do to do much charities like that. But but subsequently, I did become involved in a lot of things that I'm very proud of, but I decided I wouldn't can devote my retirement years to charity, how we wanted to still be active in this. And so I found a way to manage its securities portfolio when you've got real active in real estate and now have one of my sons who is running our family office. We've got staff of about six or seven people in our dock on well, there's no grass growing. Let's go back here now, you mentioned your family and we didn't even talk about starting our family. So let's go back now and start about when you Matt. Okay. Well, I was boss of their family. I was married in December 1965 and I was following May. I was 30 years old. So for that year I was fairly late in my career getting married or not married. A woman who whom I met at a Christmas dance, was introduced to her by one of her sorority sisters, who subsequently married Jimmy Blanchard down in Columbus, who knows my guy. And coincidentally, Jimmy hits been a lot of time with my wife Peggy and not only date nerve, but but one of his good friends was Dayton or so he had been around pay for a long time. And We laugh even now today, Jamie and I talk about the fact that when he squeezes PEGI squeezes a little bit harder. Usual and I do the same with sister. But anyway, that's all her name is Margaret. Yeah. Her real name is Margaret. She goes by the name pay and she was talking about, Hey, bad and she was How long did it take you to talker numeric. It was kind of used to him cause she was she was also she date that this friend of mine who was we had a group here in Atlanta that we've talked about, but Park a bird was one of our valued members as matter of fact. And the federal bill Dunlap, who is a man as well. We're members of a group we call the bachelor's protective association. Like it. And so but anyway, we were at this Christmas dance and the next day I talked to build on that message. See an acute grossly Sue, I saw this one girl. And on this flower dress, you know, anyway, he described in this adages like and so I said You better call that girl, right? But not always. They always went by the power of this house on New Year's Day was football game. So I'll call pagan and ask her if she'd go to. But he's asked women might a date with them. And so but Bill found out a way to get a date with a two on later on, you know, and so you are competing we are competing with tape for Peggy for a while. And then she was a practice teacher at that time. She graduated university Georgian. That summer, went to Europe. And when she came back, I propose to some will. So you act and the heart grow fonder, high should say right away and you realize you needed that one, then we marry. And December of 960 that say you're coming up on an anniversary. Right. And where did you establish their home place? I had bought a duplex apartment on the Prado over and A's we park and we move. That was our first address and subsequently bought a little house. I'm sorry, I can't remember the name of the street right now. It doesn't matter. But anyway, that was I for you? Yeah. Well well established and you could provide for your mat with her father helped us with those with the house. I did have the duplex. I bought a pretty substantial it's me, you are certainly mature enough to start a family take on that responsibility. And our first-child, Dudley the third, was born in March 1967. We had a second, Chao, Margaret, who was born in April of 69, and a third Chao Richard, who was born in June of 71. And Lane was born. Lane is a boy, not mother's maiden name was lying. We had boy, girl, boy, we thought the last most. Gotta read this. He was born in September of 73. So they're all about two years apart. I'm going to congratulate you on remembering, but if you had a pattern there, so I went to had remembered their breath years. Let's talk a little bit about that. First of all, that Peggy continue to work to Chico into teaching already know she did, but she she did get a major in early childhood education, which helped her now add without graduate degree, let us shelter. I really do. I say Tell me about the oldest went that they alright. Dudley is now working at Wachovia bike. He was working at first you knew before the merger and presently is working out of the done Moody and went and got his course. He went to the University of Georgia. He, he went all of our children at 1 along the way, went to the love at school and then deadly went to Woodbury Forest and graduated from there in the Jing. Margaret graduated from love it. Richard graduate from cry School in Asheville, north Carolina. And laying graduated from Hampton Sidney. So it was their high school education. That was our pop right? There's our private, but in college. Then he went to University of Georgia W that acid line with the Hampton Sidney, let me let me correct that. That was his college. Oh, he he graduated. He went to Episcopal for a couple of years and then gradually color that. I want. Hampton City College. He's the only one that didn't graduate university. Joy, also the other three don't go and then one went that all of them in different majors. Badly, obviously in finance or banking or what? Well, his major was political science Interesting. Uh-huh. And and he always knew that she wanted to be an art history major in and won't be an interior designer. So after she graduated, she went to London and studied at the Christi School, and then another SKU call each ball. And she was in London for two years and came back to New York and met her husband in London, who was from Atlanta, whom she did not know what that meant to be. Our y both were planning to go to New York, so they they moved to New York and in subsequently you've had two children and they still live in New York. So you have grandchild haven't had two grandchildren and they both males. One is 2.5 and once Bob and I also want to Fourth of July or you've got babies that you've got Yellen. So my family got a you don't get to see them from holiday there here. I'm already here. Oh, that's great. They normally come down here for Thanksgiving. Then we go to Florida for Christmas so badly to get to theorize and allowing that cell. Okay, So after Margaret came, Richard and what the rich are getting into this line of work. This first line of work was Richard didn't push your hearing more of a desk job from the get-go and he started by an old houses and renovating them, wow, selling them. And I think the housing market got pretty tight and it got to be pretty difficult. And some fellow came to him who was a friend of mine and asked him one day whether or not he would like to go into business with him. And his name was Bill shop towel. And he was an investor in multifamily housing and hired Richard to do a lot of work. He started out chicken rent rolls and property taxes and things like that and learned a lot about multifamily housing and real estate in general. And and stayed there for a little over two years. And I decided it would be well to bring Richard into our business and and talk demand doing that. And he has been running the family office in what are called shag and be good too. So he's been, but he has actual hands-on experience. Now this kinda handy fellow to have around that and has done a wonderful job. That's great. That the Ninja I don't want about way. And when I explained was it didn't graduate from college and went to Little Rock, Arkansas and committed to work at Stevens in their corporate finance section for two years. After which he thought he was going to New York and he came to Atlanta. Sort of stumbled, owned a situation with a venture capital firm and has been there now? Yes, for years now. So he's doing fine and his work in with a man who is now a partner in another business that they have. They've just bought a franchise about a year ago called pods portable own domain storage there, these boxes you place on your premises so they can put them in a storage facility. They also use them for cross country. Won't we have such a mobile society now that that's been a wonderful biz. Yeah, they have craton as in Phoenix, Las Vegas, and Tucson. So he's having a big time with eyes. He's having a good time. He's kept his day job it on the airplane data. Because eventually that'll be of passion and I'm just remembering now that way. So they're all very successful. See here one of the lucky ones. Well, we have a wonderful family and there's a huge degree of luck in that, you know, I'm sure there's a common app by a look at what Margaret does for her children now and the time she spends with those children, that maybe one day it's music and the next day it's basketball and all that stuff and goals. We tried to be active with our children, but I asked pass it. Who were slaves? Darfur too. Yeah. And I'm sure I'm going to enlarge the edge of mental window. Peggy Peggy was the dominant form factor or that no doubt because she was there. Certainly you exist or the re the raising of children changes over time. You know, the little ones today get so much more attention. And then like you say, your children dead and certainly a whole lot more than you got. Your mom and dad probably didn't dwell a lot on whether or not your mind with stimulated, newer, properly entertaining. It would've never cross their mind on yet today, that's what the moms do. They worry about the creativity being developed and I'm not being sarcastic. Imagine it's just there Preet, there really preoccupied with and only time will tell whether that's the right way or not the right way and shoot. But I think you're very fortunate that all your children, you know, nobody turned into a clown on a 0 and a foreign planet or thing else, or ink, because that's one of the things I think the forum serves as the background and the support for UI this because what if you had a non traditional child, you know, is that those are the kind of life issues as you get older that you have to deal with when they don't it wasn't what you expected where we have we've had to do with those things, yeah. Because our children don't always do what we would prefer them to do and it does take some adjusting to it. So I'm real proud of my family and they've just been a wonderful support group for me and an authentic for Peggy and, you know, it's it's, uh, and we we we bought this place and floor. I'm just going to ask what made you decide that it was that it was no family had a lot do that? We we felt like we were ready for Second Life. And the fact that the business was being so gave me sort of a platform to do that. Where did you buy Palm Beach home and random value spent a couple of years and renovating it, but now there's a bedroom for each one of the children and they feel comfortable use and they can come and go as they rush. And that's has been good for, for all of us until the hurricane. And it's bad if an aggravation, cetera, Did you have a lot of damage and the storm? Well, we compared two of us around, we didn't, but it's just enough to be antagonistic is much as anything else. We had some water damage in about three rooms, one of which is going to have the sum sheet, Roscoe and the replaced. And I'll do above all, a lot of a lot of landscape damage. But did you write out those storms or will you not know? We were not that that was such a good move on your part. Better to worry about it kinda have to experience their ideal self. We have some staff down there and they did rotted out there from the Philippines. Felt like they were accustomed to that sort of thing and probably they are accustomed to. So at least there was somebody there keep an eye on. Thanks to report back. What does the future hold for deadly our more junior Maryland. Tell me you're not kind of retire, you're not Well, no, no, no. Not going to be like Daddy entire adult life. So I thought, I see my challenge is being able to sort of do the course. It's been an extreme lead, difficult process for me, for example, to monitor securities portfolio, this being managed by somebody else. When you're in business. Your steer in the red or red and you know the numbers on a daily basis and intuitively, you know where you're going and so forth. Anything that relates to Securities Investment is an after the fact evaluation and I'm still having trouble with that. So I'm paying close attention, but less so than I did I think the outset and and learn something new out of it. Absolutely. And so I see a continued challenge there. And we're really having fun in the real estate business. We're doing. What I have attempted to do is identify with friends of mine whom I respect, know, and respect, and the the financial partner in some of the development activity that they're undergoing. Excitable guy here so that there's a, there's a time horizon that is pretty definite, you know, one-on-one to two years and you kinda know when you're going be in and out and you know what the level of profit expectation, one of those things that takes with patients, right? Yes. So you have to rely on the big picture and be patient with that. We would be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about your volunteer work and you've gotten involved with you mentioned cash or University of Georgia Foundation? Well, there's more to it than just that. Well, it is It's been County has done that. That's a good starter though, because the way I got started over there was the Head of the Department of Insurance. The time came to me and they had just started a program called the practitioner lecture series. And essentially what they were trying to do was to identify with successful graduates. Have them come back to that. The University, I will say, right? And it was a three-year commitment to do that. And so I got on that treadmill. Did you enjoy and I enjoyed it very much. It was a learning experience for me. So I but subsequent to that, Fred Davidson was then President University of Georgia and came to me and asked if I would serve as a member of the Board of Trustees of the foundation. And so I got started there and over time became chairman of that board. And your friends have just had a mindfulness app as well? Have it bad. I used to be kind of quiet about my relationship. Admittedly, when I was active in the foundation and it was a it was a great experience for me and I learned a lot. As a safe read was, was involved and then subsequently Chuck Knapp. Actually we had an interim president, Henry Stanford, who came from the universe. Our very well be lavish, ma'am, what are the data? Tartaglia. And then Chuck Knapp came in and then Michael Adams, who's now you've really worked down to four oppressor really have. And I've gotten to know all of them well then spent a lot of time with them and have a lot of respect for what each one of them has brought an alarm. No arms. It's a big, big job. And then we created a real estate foundation that has done some unique things on the campus at the University of Georgia. Very small group of Trustees and I've been active in that. Involved with the Athletic Association. I am own athletic board. And that's been an esteemed experience, to say the least. And the Terry College of Business is of course, one of my father's friends man named commentary from Jacksonville, gave $5 million to the university, which at that time was the largest huge amount of learning donation needed ever been given. And they name the College of Business for for him, for him and wow, Ryan Terry Terry College. And we I was involved in the search for the day with their six years ago, hard to believe. But George Mason has done a wonderful job as our diene and chairman of the board of overseers of the Terry College. So that's your fingers than a lot of 50 HVAC. I'm very much involved now one could retire, not even our flighty stretch. You're also involved in other philanthropy. Philanthropy in the community. My father was an interested was on the board. It's Scottish ride and I wondered where the children can actually get from your dad. But Margaret had a malady that require treatment at Shepherd. Know. What's now children's health care? Well, eagles alcohol as well as trial thing. And we peg and I felt strongly about the fact that until you need a facility like that, you don't really appreciate our timeline. But once a journey that funny now and so it has been something that we've been interested in and also Jetson Hall, who was one of the Founding physicians at Scottish right? Was so generous to, to them and was so kind and my father during his illness for some reason they just had a nice friendship because of that board connection. And over time, I've just always been something that I've tried to be involved with him and made some financial contributions to preserve their phones. They really does affect shepherd has been a situation where I've really not been involved in in the process. And as a donor, one of my dear friends, David Ellis, suffered an accident much like Christopher, Christopher Reeves. And as a result of his interest in Shepherd, I guess an abnormal Anna Shepherd for a long time. And so we have an interests there, but that's why and then sit Since go into Palm Beach. There's a lot of philanthropy going down and login and we've had to kind of share some of that wealth as well. It's not easy to do but pay and I've been privileged to serve on the board of the Saudi for force down, and that's been a nice experience. So it's a very wide variety of interests with education, if the art, to help health care profession itself and then back out on the board of the HA the Finance Committee. So you're involved in their territory. How much of your time by spending down in Florida? A good bit of it. We really are we're we're in Florida, particularly in the wintertime. We're there through four weeks and maybe in Atlanta through four days. Okay. So it is your primary residence and animals pass, but your company is still here. Companies here, but we're technically Florida residents. Are you? I texted my HA so wave velocity and we'll have stayed overall. When you look back at what we've talked about today, what do you think? What does it, what you want to sum this one up for me? Who bore then a fortunate life? Yeah, but you know, it's been so diverse. I don't know. You know, I was really concerned about this Maryland where after I had been I was president of COP chamber commerce for example. And I don't have any reason whatsoever be President Cobb chain after why you didn't live there? Now? Well, our digital office was out and they did a a, an industrial development revenue bond for us when we build, to build and out there. And so I had some, some got to patent reason to want to put something back. But I looked at nasa guy, you know, if I would in the real estate business or something that would would real *** and value direct value in being so actively involved, it might be one thing, but anyway, I I worked hard and I tried to do a good job and lack in retrospect, I said, You know what I did. And so when I when I reflect on my my total life, proud of the accomplishments that had been made. I guess financially is much as anything But, you know, got a great family and I'm healthy. I mean, I guess almost be thankful Fool, but I don't know. Ha we'll have it in my mind. How will be remembered? All I know is I've tried to do a little bit and a lot of areas. It's brings up a good point. We talk about some of the experiences or hot especially in volatile. I know from every sexual dot. Tell me about that. How did you get involved and where it was an AST and story. Early on there was a small group who was engaged in the venture capital business and we had a small SBIC, Small Business Investment Company which loans money to small business. And one of the members of that group knew a fellow that I was in the bank and business and and had been appointed as an interim CEO of mine that had some financial problems out in hate bill. And he convinced us that we should make an investment in this buying. And there were seven of us who, who did that. And subsequently, the year after we made our investment, this man decided he didn't want anybody on his board and he was going to outline the bike in a different way than what we had agreed. And so we solicited proxies in a challenge to his authority and wound up not only with the proxies, but we wound up owning about a third of the BI for which we had signed a significant no, jointly and severally know what jointly and severally maze and width through an experience. Over time. Turning the bike around, had a fellow that was running the bike at that time that it did a very good job. Citizens of the community loved the bike and we were doing very well, had one branch in addition to the main office. And one afternoon somebody call me up and says would you like overlapped IN, taken you through over a period of time, we found out that that some of these gas of the seven of us who own this note had not been paying their pro rata share. And to make a long story short, the bank, they didn't loaned us and money and Birmingham, this fellow named Harry brought him on new. Coincidentally he was our bike or when we were in the insurance business in Birmingham. I went to her and I said I will pay off my share. This note, he said You're not going anywhere, you're not going to pay off the note, which usually do is bad, these are the guys out. And so over a period of time, I wound up buying their shares. And so I had about a third of the bike and I made a tender offer. And for the rest of the shares and wound up with about 60 some percent of the mike and then subsequently, later on, mater. Mater now the reverse tender offer and with full ownership of the bi, so sure hats our alphabet had, had more biking route through this small community, my world and it was doing well. And and I was determined that because it was a Fulton County Charter, there was some value at that time. A lot of banks will try and buy into the city of Atlanta. And I thought maybe there might be some value there some way along the way. One time one afternoon a guy call me up an attorney and said, Would you be willing to sell you bike? And I said, Well, yeah, but I need to know a lot about who the buyer is in need to know what the process is going because I don't want anybody to know. I'm thinking about selling an asset whose you, Barney. So whacking it to you there right now. So I said, Well, we can't all and so peripheral hours later he called me back and he says I've gotten permission from my client to say who they are. And it was a prudential Insurance. And and so I said, Well, here's what I'll do. I'll make them all the records available. I'll have the president be with anybody that wants to be there from 07:00 PM to 07:00 AM. And y'all can take as long as you want to. Yeah. You know, and and so Anna said, you know, if it takes two or three days as fine. Well, my president call me up the second day and said There's somebody wants to have dinner with you to discuss this matter. And I met him at the Marriott Hotel out by the airport and we had nice manner together and had a nice chat and so forth. And I told him exactly what my price was and what I said. I know what the value is and I'm not going to deviate from that. And they made an offer less. And so I said, Well, enjoy to visit. And he called me the next morning, about seven columns that come out here and eat breakfast with me. And so I did, and about 10 o'clock, we had struck a deal. And that was the first bike that had been bought by non-bank bank. How is this day in the United States? And in because Prudential was in the insurance business and the bike and business under the Glass-Steagall Act, they were not able to engage in bot, so they had to sell off their commercial loan portfolio. That but it is still a Georgia charted by it's about the guess, the third largest state bike and still owned by Prudential. You did you have fun doing I had for the negotiations forward, I mean, the whole thing. It's like a monopoly. Rail, really a wonderful experience. And that leads me to one more experience that I had that it was kind of asked and we had formed a small Life Insurance Company to underwrite life insurance that was sold through the prompt to cast a system, not through the life distribution system and had really not utilized to integrate. Great stand. There had been accompanied, it was formed by a group of local independent agents. They raise $3 million from among themselves and then to know the $3 million from the public. And at that time a $6 million capitalize new company was, was pretty neat. That was back in in the seventies. And they were having some financial problems. And we wound up to make a long story short merge and art to life companies together and turn the company around. Got it, going in the right direction. It was a wonderful experience and we got to the point where the capital needs there and we had capital needs on our property, k is decide, and I find a side and one of those would have to go. So we decided to sell the life insurance company. I had hired a fellow to be the Chief Operating Officer. And we agreed among ourselves that we would find a buyer. So one day I was in Houston, Texas and they call me up and says I've got some biasness denial live company. But there's one kitsch. We got. This was on a Wednesday. He says We gotta be in Brussels, Belgium on Friday night dinner. And I said, Man, I got a passport. And so anyway, that was during the Carter administration. I got a passport and we went over than made up for two days. You've got it. Yeah. Oh, my word. And and had nanomolar, this German the man who was chairman of a German insurance company and his wife, who was kind of the interpreter for us that that night and had a wonderful meeting and friendship, you know, and Matt again the next day and by lunchtime, we had struck a deal with these boats. So you saw that to the gym. I'm really so the life insurance company to two German insurance company and it was a very profitable transaction and fun to do because those international different experience anyway, those are two more chairs that were pretty significant in so far as our business career was concerned, both pretty clear to me. You don't have to worry about how you're going to be remap are going to be. Remember very well, I was real concern Maryland. I realized when we bought that live company, for example, there was a financial risk. Good. Yeah, but my father was still involved as an owner in that company and I was opposed to that transaction. And I realized after that did it was it was something that I couldn't continue to do if he were going to have ownership. And that's really what motivated us to sell the company to American funny. And it worked very well. I worked for a while. How long did your father he was 890 past a wonderful kind of gray line. Yeah. He and date that. Well, you've got a long ways to go before you. I hope so. Why you got a whole new chapters to write wag and still rolling, going to have to have addendum after I've done the math right down among them out. It's been a colorful, interesting, never boring for a minute life. And then hook it asks for more than that. Well, history, never boring for a minute. I'm always so much notice the places to go and things to do. So it's been a great pleasure sharing with you. I can't thank you enough for taking time out of all that busy stuff you have to do on the jetting around, you're going are you going to stay in Atlanta for a holiday? Are you going back to Florida? We're going to be here for the nice given in going next week. We're going to be in Florida for a week. We've got a an event at our home. I'm trying to move diesem of the six, I believe Monday, the 6th of December, we've got a couple of 100 people come in full. My favorite color drop and the good news is, is that on this rainy, rainy Georgia, you don't have to go anywhere to get your turkey dinner. Well, thank you so much for taking time for us today to explore your life and to record. Greg, thank you so much.