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>> Hi everybody thank you for hanging in there for the thought that we are so excited to have you at today's book talk with Dr Sasha Costanza-Chock about their book to digest it so without further ado I'd like to lock them I colleagues actually I mean he says to moderate take that Hello everyone welcome thanks for joining us.

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I am an associate professor of digital media here at the school of literature media and community action a Georgia Tech now I am really honored to be able to introduce Constance a chalk today I'm going to keep it short because I know you all have been waiting. They are researchers designer who works to support community led processes that build shared power move towards collective liberation and advance ecological survival.

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They're known for their work on network social movements transformative media organizing and design justice and they're currently at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a joint appointment Arts and Sciences at the mit Media Lab and the Department of urban studies and planning and of course. Dr Stanton talk is here to talk about their new book design justice community led practices to build the world we need published by and I see press in 2020 I know you're really going to enjoy this something I've been using in my own classes.

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The book is freely available which is terrific and we can we can share look for that however if you'd like to own a copy as as I do I encourage you to purchase it which will support the author and mighty press and with that all all handed over to you.

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Thank you so much Yanni and thank you Catherine. Said you both for inviting me I apologize for the delay at the time zone problem but I'm very excited to be here and to be in conversation with you all about so I'm going to start my green chair so you can know we are meeting virtually I like to begin with Plan acknowledgements and so I reside on the lands of the want in a pocket and Massachusetts people and I do this because I feel that we have a responsibility to acknowledge the history ongoing violence of settler colonialism and so think about how we as individuals and also institutions and try and end that violence and seek a new path forward and so I'm actually not sure if you all have access to share chat or not but if you do you could drop your own let acknowledgements there if not you could just take a moment on your own to reflect on who's lands are you on and if you're not sure you can visit native stash Land dot ca and that can tell you a little bit about last year and of course I'd like to start with that and so you have us move into thinking about is on and technology and design justice.

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I thinking about the way that we're on land that have been traversed by 1st Nations Peoples for thousands of years but today there fragmented by militarized borders. So for example this is an image from the intercept where. Back in Korea and others reveals a Google cloud of contract to work with and a real industries surveillance technology and a so-called virtual border wall and it's a partnership to develop cutting edge sensing classification Ai decisions of course systems and off Meister reality user interface designs in partnership with Customs and Border Patrol which is the agency responsible for the for separation of thousands of children from their parents for extended periods of time.

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And deaths in custody and myriad human rights abuses and unfortunately while those reached a peak of a certain kind under the previous administration the current administration has not. Moved quickly enough for many immigrant rights advocates. To reunite as children and more broadly to think about how to rethink the militarization of the border area that we're living in very disturbing times we're living in a pandemic we're living in militarized borders but I believe that there's also a sea change that's taken place actually in computing and in different design fields I feel like there's a growing sense that the unintended harms of computing systems.

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I mean that we need to slow down and re-evaluate and consider the Sidell and long term impacts and sometimes refused to participate in certain types of work and actually today I heard you to check out on netflix today there is now a trending documentary called coded bias that follows the work joyful and Leni and algorithmic Justice League the side that I do and work with the obviously Justice League I'm a senior research fellow there but the film coded by us which is just this week Nadal's on Netflix kind of follows choice work to expose skin tone and gender bias iteration systems but I think there is a shift in the conversation happening and today I'm excited to share some of the ideas from my new book design justice that I think are useful for the longer term project of making computing systems less harmful and developing more of our capacity to build the kinds of world that we need and this image is just the cover of the book.

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As well as the table of contents and the key chapters in the book and it's organise them to begin with an excerpt from the introduction of the book and then I'll draw on some other components and then we'll get into a community so I'll begin to June of 2017 I was standing in line at the security at the Detroit Metro Airport and I was up on my way back to Boston from a life media conference which is a collaborative laboratory of media based organizing it's held every year in Detroit and it's been there for the past 2 decades and the conference where over $3000.00 people gather each year to share ideas and strategies for how to create a more just creative and collaborative world.

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And as a non-binary trans am presenting person by hand there is always very very deeply liberating. Than any that I know of to be deeply inclusive of all kinds of people including trans intersects and gender nonconforming. As. Every year there are new challenges there are difficult conversations about what it means truly inclusive spaces it's always a powerful experience and.

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Emerge from. A prince immersed world I am tired but and refresh and my reservoir of belief in the possibility of creating better futures is always a plan. But standing in the security line and I'm drawn closer to the millimeter wave scanning machine as. My heartbeat starts getting up and near the end.

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Going to be subject to an embarrassing uncomfortable and humiliating search if USA officer after my body is flagged as anomalous at the millimeter wave scanner. It happened because of the particular technical figuration normative in this normative which is the assumption that people have gender identity and presentation that are consistent with the sex they were assigned upper and that's been built into the scanner there are a combination of user interface design getting to.

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The binary gender shape data constructs the risk detection algorithms as well as the socialization the training and experience of the. Motions me to step into the. It raised my arms like this I think my hands in a triangle shaped explored assessment test the standard spins around my body and make a smooth and then the agent signal me to step forward out of the machine and wait with my feet on the pass just past the scanner except when I look over to my left I see a screen that looks just like what you're seeing here with a bright fluorescent yellow lab an abstracted human body and the bright fluorescent yellow block is highlighting in this case my groin area because when I entered the scanner the t.s.a. operator on the other side was prompted by the user interface select male or female they literally have a little blue boy a button and a little girl.

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And since my gender presentation hence more toward the side usually the operator selects the male but the 3 dimensional half hours of my body at millimeter resolution differ from statistical norms of female bodies as understood by the data sets the risk algorithm used by the millimeter wave scanner and subcontractors and estranged by an army of sick workers tasked with labeling and classification as scholars like Mary Gray in her brilliant book Ghost work and the leader Ronnie remind us so if a patient selects male My breasts are large enough that sickly speaking arse into a normative smell body shape is triggering an anomaly warning and highlight my chest area if they select female my groin area is going to get highlighted So in other words I can't win the so so technical system is hardwired and mark me as risky not triggers an escalation to the next level in the security protocol.

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And that's what happened on this day in the trial so I get flagged the Asian pulled me aside and now they're asking for my consent to a physical body search and now they're confused about my gender and even though t.s.a. policy says well if a pat down is performed it will be conducted by an officer of the same gender as you present yourself well as an advisory trance found that's not usually going to happen they don't happen to have an advisory Trans-Am t.s.a. agent sitting around most airports.

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So I have a problem not easily resolved by the algorithms of the security product. Though in this case there's a whole thing that happens different agents are trying to figure out you know what to do and now I'm standing in public I'm sliced by 2 different t.s.a. agents there's a line of travelers observing the whole interaction and ultimately you're not presenting agent searches we feel it's very uncomfortable I'm very uncomfortable I'm cleared to continue on to my gate but the point of this story.

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It's a provide a small but very concrete example from my own daily lived experience about how larger systems putting norms values and assumptions are encoded and reproduce through the design of Jesu technical systems or in political theorist Langton winners famous words how artifacts have politics that we talked about how the fist Norman city was inforced your my interaction with airport security systems and they're all designed based on the assumption that there are only 2 genders that gender presentation will conform with so-called biological sex and anyone whose body doesn't fall within the next optical range of deviance from a norm of a binary body type is select as risky and then subject to a heightened and disproportionate burden of the harms of airport security systems.

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Trans intersects and gender nonconforming people are disproportionately Burtons by the design of millimeter wave. And the way that technology. Has them is biased against us as he used his term it's a missed hearing machine most people are unaware of the fact that these scanners. And most transgender and not conforming people now because it directly affects our last and of course this is sums are only biased against people they're biased against black people who frequently experience invasive searches of their hair as documented on Pro Publica against men Muslim women and others who wear head wraps as described by Simone Brown in her dark matters and.

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Technically demonstrated gender itself is racialized in computer systems humans have trained our machines to categorize faces and bodies or via mail through lenses tinted by the optics of white supremacy. Airport security is systematically biased against many disabled people who are likely to be flagged as risky if they have a non-normative body shapes or if they use prostheses and of course if you're simultaneously gender nonconforming or trans black indigenous or a person of color Muslim immigrants disabled and so on well then you're going to be doubly triply or otherwise most of leave burdened and face the highest risks of harms from this system so my wife and my citizenship and my institutional affiliation with my teeth placed me in a position of relative privilege so I'm probably not going to be placed in the at detention center I don't have to face deportation proceedings and I'm not going to be herded and whisked away to one or one of the other secret prisons that form part of the global infrastructure of the so-called war on terror so I probably won't even in this my flight and other people face much greater potential harms here I want to emphasize that the violent or Bisher of trans and gender nonconforming people isn't something new it's not to be is only based on technologies and technology systems though it's been happening for hundreds of years under the ongoing project of settler populism this Mormon sympathy was imposed upon indigenous peoples throughout the Americas and around the world through centuries of violence of spectacular and every day and this is an image of the school in the us above all and 1513 but in his dogs to devour 43rd gender people from what today would be called Panama because he saw them as men in women's clothing and he saw that as a tax I wonder what he would have thought of the illness acts so.

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First Nations creed to spirit scholar and activist Harlan Cruden and mission a bag theorist and writer Leanne Simpson among many others are systematically recovering some of these histories grounding analysis of Sr normative border security systems in hundreds of years of settler colonial violence I want to make it clear that I'm not an advocate of the technical solution to the problems with millimeter wave scanners by so I'm not interested in making millimeter wave scanners or import less biased more fair and transparent simple inclusion or just fixing the anomaly doesn't get at the underlying this charcoal and structural problems that concern but so instead I'm asking us to think about how we might build a world where millimeter wave anarchist don't exist where they and other border technologies and car sort of systems and the violence of Empire have been abolished like partial Wailea I'm interested in undoing border imperialism and like rooftops Benjamin I'm interested in dismantling what she calls the new Jim Cote discriminatory design that amplifies racial hierarchies through engineered inequity default discrimination boated exposure and techno benevolence the root cause is calling out how tech design often ignores life by ignoring replicate social divisions.

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Or sometimes tries to fix racial bias and the free producing so I'm interested in the car sort of design alleging design and design just what it is designed just. Well I like to say that on the one hand it's framework for analysis about how the design of socio technical systems influence the distribution of benefits and Burtons between various groups of people out of design distribute benefits inverter.

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And I also think it's important. That. My producer challenge. Collins calls the matrix of domination is. White supremacy. Capitalism able is on. Long listen and other forms of structural inequality. This term in her classic text black feminist. And she was president of the American. To talk about how race and gender our systems of oppression and she created a conceptual model that helps us think about.

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How. Are systematically distributed. In. The nation to talk about race class and. Historically have been most important in structuring. She. Oppression. Helps us think about how this Burtons between various groups of people no. Metrics of domination and we can also analyze. And Burtons are distributed through of. And this importance us.

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Are an object properties that show possible actions users can take. Might interact with that object. Might look like it needs to be pushed and. And it really came to be influential across multiple fields after design Professor William. Article technology. And it moved to some much wider use in human computer interaction and elsewhere following the publication of I kind of scientists and interface designer Norman's the Design of Everyday Things That is a text that some of you might be familiar with and for Norman refers to the perceived and actual properties of the thing and so we talked about how you know.

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A door knob up or it's turning a mouse might afford moving the cursor on the screen putting a touch screen affords having. This book it's a phenomenal text it's full of very useful insights and very compelling examples but also almost it's fairly ignores race gender disability and other axes and.

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For example Norman briefly talks about how capitalism shapes the designs. But he just says it in passing and never relates it to the key concepts of the book he never talks about race or racism and he only uses the term us when he's talking about the empathy and.

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Where the unsealing shows lots of naked women floating around a man who's valiantly trying to read the book and quote. Transgender none of those terms of here and disability is barely discussed in a section that he calls designing for special people and so he talks about problems designers face when they design for left handed people and he urges readers to consider the special problems of quote that aged and infirm and have the half blind or near blind deaf or hard of hearing or the foreign.

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And so it is very firmly subscribing to the individual or medical model of disability. Disability in the defective body there's a problem to be solved in the social relational model where we. Actively disables people who have. Limitations or impairment. Exclusion instead of taking action to meet people's access needs.

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The disability justice model created by disabled black indigenous and. We're fighting to is called. As a key access of power within the matrix and. To focus sustained attention spans. Nations. Perceptibility and availability so we can ask you know whether I give enough Orton's is equally perceptible to people or whether it systematically some kinds of people over others and I would argue that.

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Ability is always shaped by our standpoint which is talking about our location within the metrics of domination of race. Perceptible to some kinds of users and others and. To think about what. Is equally available to people. Or moving between a home for most people. To those whose form of mobility makes stairs difficult or impossible to use the users might be perceptible but unavailable Nortons or.

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Announces an instant message. Could enhance the perception. Of the importance of a message plant for some users if you're able to hear the alert if you've got the application minimized in your background if you're away from the computer doing another task that occupies your. Other users. Or if you have your computer.

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Or human interaction is. Interactions based on machines acting parsing and predicting our intentions as humans like facial recognition or occasions or voice control and natural language processing but we. Will never equal. And this really brings that insight to the fore asked for our ongoing attention how differences in accordance perceptibility or.

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Are shaped by the new tricks of domination and. I think. Our work in tribute to dismantling or reproducing. The. Which is visual. And. More constrained. To an area. Or a. Tree without a key or. A mobile phone affords access to the phone's content for the owner but it disappoints others.

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And think about this importance as with why which. Are developed by a philosopher of technology. Or who talked about a bunch of examples and then applied to support. And this is objects that requires users to mis identify ourselves after their actions. Binary purse and when I'm interacting with air travel to the can or other systems.

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That force me to select either male or female. That's a disappointment for me and when really found that her face was not the tech bubble her dark skinned face was not detectable by her vision. Opposites disorders she had to put on a white mask. For the system to see her nasty cold in that documentary I guess I hope you'll watch after.

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This is about imposing a single best design solution it's about recognizing that fortresses and disappoint. Some people over others and getting us to think about how when lead. Or not. Or. Place in the built environment are we reducing opportunities for already oppressed groups while we're mostly enhancing life opportunities we're already dominant groups or are we doing something else and I want to.

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Talk. Because it isn't just a way of thinking. This is actually a community of practice and it's not a term that I created either it's a community of practice. People were thinking about more equitable distribution of science benefits and. More meaningful participation in design. And thinking how do we recognize.

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And. Design tradition knowledge. Is created by. People. Including some that organizers like you know lead the Barnett. Danielle out. And many many other people back in well actually. 2015 when there was a workshop the principals of the. Principals were presented the following year. For people to start signing on to back in 2016.

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Inspired by a lot of other work that had come before like the media projects and some of the trade is little Justice Coalition and and and many others and those principles have now been widely circulated and. Here or remove to talk a little bit more about what the design just this network is up to and then in.

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The. Principles that come from that community. First of all we used. And empower our communities as well. And. That. Says that those who are directly impacted by the outcomes of the design process. Designs impact on the community over the intentions of the designer. Meaning the process. Don't necessarily have to.

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Principle we view change as emergent from an accountable and collaborative process. And across. What we see the role of the designer. Rather than an expert because. We believe that everyone is an expert based on their own experience and may have leaked and brilliant contributions to bring it to sign.

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Design knowledge and tools that our community is. Always acting as. Though we might have really specialized knowledge based on you know we've studied a particular type of. Professionally. But we can. We work. Community and controlled outcomes this is in contrast to. Approaches to let me come to your community and.

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The problem then I'll fix it. And we work towards not exploited absolution reconnect the earth into each other and the final principle. Before seeking a new design solution we look for what is already working at community we honor and. Dismiss Well knowledge. Now over a 1000 signatures. We've formal membership in the justice network.

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And there are now post 500 members of the network we're organized in Local know. In different cities and locations around the country are and around the world they're working groups that focus on different networks and produce different types of. Fission. And then. Very quickly there's a lot of exciting activities happening there are reasons for downloads.

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Meeting up. On including in. New York. There are public events and you can. Just order which is the website it is. Now. It is just as network is not the only group of people thinking about these concepts and trying to design challenge rather than reproduce in a. Community.

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Like the creator reaction lab that. Leads. There is design as protest and the design just announced this is a group of architects and urban planners who are dedicated to thinking about design justice in the environment. They have a very specific. Around. And. There are projects like the considerable technology.

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Which is thinking about how we could use. You read imagine data practices what would it need if our consent or use was freely given revokable. And informed enthusiastic. And a bunch of other you know ways that the design justice is being. A lot of scholars who are being core ideas of the space.

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Race after knowledge of ennobles brilliant book algorithms of oppression. Mary. About the labor. And then. Demonstrated how the seemingly smooth experience. Depends on the work of a big invisible human labor force or originate Eubanks meeting inequality. Algorithmic this isn't systems. And were designed to limit. Our access to social welfare that were originally they organize for people's movement.

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And Klein but they're just going on in this space. There is happening in this space there are students. Organizing to say that we won't be recruited. By companies that are using technologies. There are Google blocking out. Against the use of Google technology or Customs and Border Patrol or against.

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You know as part of the meet you Movement challenge. Discrimination and harassment you know inside the company. So there there's so much happening exciting and important moment to be asking questions about how we can rethink technology is line prophecies and what they mean and think about what our role whether as students or faculty or practitioners are just everyday people experiencing.

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What that might be so I think I want to stop there that we have a little bit of time for conversation and q. and a and you know thank you so much for. Sticking with us and. A late start. That was terrific very inspiring thank you so much for for being with us today to share share your important work.

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I do want to open it up for questions at this time I don't see any questions right now people are probably figuring out the system and typing up their questions there is a separate to in a area but also monitor the chat. You know as we're waiting for questions that come in I wonder if you could just say a little more about how you came to this work when did you decide you wanted to write this book and and what work do you hope the book to do in the world.

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Will just start with how you came to. Just more of the story around the book now. Well yeah I mean like I said the book really emerged from my participation in this community a practice not of a live media conference and that's community I've been part of or about 20 years.

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This is a conference that you know meeting in Detroit every year they're growing and growing at this point now thousands of people you know every summer being there and I've been involved in different you know capacities over the years there I helped organize a Spanish language track at the live Munich conference helped organize a hands on kind of like hack lab type space.

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Gather with a janitor star or mother cyborg from who's is known for a lot of her work including like the real people guys and I would mean you know. But then the community has been part of people's thinking about how could we. Maybe media or liberation and then media making devolved into thinking about technologies that are important to and required for media making especially as 3rd of the tools of media making started to centralize and as our phones arrived and as social media was born.

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You know I've been a conference began before the social media existed there was no Twitter there was no Facebook there was no My Space There was no tick tock there was none of this stuff so. Over the years I guess I've been deeply interested and involved in a number of different types of media making projects and prophecies including software development it's like building applications mess or the help democratize media making.

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So prior to the use of social media I was involved in a network called the Indian media which is sort of like social movement involved radical media makers creating some of the 1st open publishing spaces on the web where anyone just a lot of forms published but you know or a picture for that was a word that was the same.

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Was later involved in creating a project called Boston for mobile voices where we were working with day laborers in Los Angeles to help build a platform where people could post concepts from cheap local funds before people had access to smartphones broadly but over the years I was learning going from sort of being a media maker working with social movements learning how to do software development processes that were informed by.

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By social movement participants so that some of like the background of my own journey into technology design and then more recently the design Justice Network I had emerged from Media Project and a conference and as I was involved in that I was just like well I need to be writing about these things that were that were doing as well as about my own sort of personal experiences.

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I guess the book took a long time to come to fruition definitely a labor of love. And I'm just really excited that it. Is defining an audience and it's making its way in the world I think that it. I mean I lot went into it so yeah I think it's a good book I tried to make it very sensible I tried to like to get a concept and make them you know special for more people but also I think it just like came at the right time.

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When there's just this huge conversation that's opening up about how technologies are racist and sexist and are reproducing I'll whole bunch of negative things that we don't want in the world and so design just as I think is the way provide some guy posts for people to think about like have to be redo this i could we redesign these tools.

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You know the arithmetic what we have a bunch of questions here so I want to give people a chance to ask them I'm going to read the because they've been written out of the system worked. Emily Poland asked during the pandemic many then many businesses and organizations including libraries have had to pivot the largely digital modes of service this inevitably leaves behind certain populations are there any design based discussions that address the inequality.

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That has has come about in this pivot towards the digital during the pandemic so how have you seen the kind of design justice issues playing out during the pandemic and that's a great question. I think that. The early in the pandemic I had this tweet that went viral that was kind of a joke but not really it was.

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It was about. Disabled people asking for years and years and years for conference organizers to figure out how to make remote participation possible. And conference organizers saying for years and years and years it's too difficult it's too expensive it's too complicated we can't do that and pandemic says hello and then suddenly the 24 hours later all the conference organizers they join our new 1st full conference platform system fully featured and so it was sort of a joke.

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But I think that it's real so the crisis on the one and man that suddenly all types of things that seemed impossible but were really only political impossibilities. You know overnight became possible so remote conference participation remote work for many types of work remote education. Mediately you know people who had to figure all these things out.

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I think that there are actually some real On the one hand there are some real. Benefits that opening up to that show something a lot of people have been calling for for a long time at the same time in the context of massive disparity in comic tippity both within countries and within individual cities and between countries versus deeply problematic stuff suddenly people who have the best broadband connectivity.

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And even more access and their lives become even easier those who don't have to succumb activity. Slower devices etc etc etc are further marginalized and lives are made more difficult when we talk about the massive bifurcation between the types of work that are possible remotely and those that need to remain you know in person and how that stratified by socio economic status and also by race and gender those things are really separable by ability and so on so you know it's not shallow you know people who are most disadvantaged pre-planned Emek face heavier burden through every aspect of the pandemic and the solutions so.

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People already marginalized are more likely to have to do a typographic have to be done remotely to catch coded the catch more severe coded to die have less access to resources that are necessary you know to survive to not be able to do remote schooling or work so that's a long way of saying that I don't think there's necessarily design solutions to that problem there are large scale public policy and infrastructure solutions which our round ensuring that we have much broader act you know universal broadband connectivity.

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And that we make other decisions that are about reducing its magic and quality. That underlies. Those disparities. Thank you. Here's another question from c. who as what can you diversity do to employ some of the principles of design justice and I'd maybe like to just add on to that you know you're at mit which is very similar in many ways to the Georgia Tech you know these are these are technology centered technology oriented institutions.

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You know you know what does it mean to do this kind of work in an institution like that and what kinds of successes their frustrations have you faced in trying to kind of work within within that infrastructure that's a great question and I think. One thing that excites me about you know doing this work inside a place like Mit is students and the younger generation and so many people just kind of like coming out that I encounter every day who really cared deeply about all of these questions and are excited to think about how they could develop career paths send their own knowledge and just contribute to the world in ways that would help is natural just another question.

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The downside is I don't know if that same type of support you know comes from. The higher up level should have. Established institutions you know like like mit I don't know what it's like there but I see a lot of lip service to the idea of sort of making things better but it's often ouch in ways that are as it seems to address root causes like systematic and structural racism and Russia or.

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You know I think that some of that has shifted recently even at the high levels of powerful institutions the movement for black lives and black lives matter forced many institutions to at least. Develop and make public stances around. How they benefit from anti blackness and how they might take to shift and address that I think we have yet to see you know if the money will follow.

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The commitments and the discourse but certainly there's been an opening more recently but I would say that those openings from organized social movements outside the institutions whether the institutions are tech companies or powerful universities or political parties you know institutions just when organized people make them just so I see my role as being one small role as like actor within an institution that prides itself on sort of technical knowledge and expertise I'm asking critical questions and I'm also pointing to like you know my mode is not just sure you know critique and like let's carry down my mode is there are some things that are really damaging but also there's a lot of people actively trying to figure out ways to do this better and that does resonate I think a lot with on especially students and some other you know and then I mean that's a great answer and I didn't I do think it's you know this book has really come just at the right time and maybe following up on that Grace has a question.

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Do you feel hopeful or fear for both or neither about the future of the Internet social media and tech companies you know lay it out for us what do you think is coming down the line well. I am hopeful in the sense that I think there are so many younger people.

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Who are interested in developing better alternatives everything. Infrastructures platforms. Political parties. And so on and so forth companies. So I'm hopeful about the Pope about the shift in the conversation. The fact that coded biases trending on netflix today makes me excited. That you know more and more people are aware of the ways that technical systems reproduce existing inequality and.

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Are learning about what that means in their daily lives and that. Leads and that energy and lead to both the regulatory shift that we need as well as changes in development life cycles you know for example we have secure development life cycle because everyone understands that cyber security is a real thing and I don't want to.

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You know want to be Facebook having 400000000 user Cal compromised. But in algorithmic decision system you know we don't have like an equitable algorithmic development life cycle that's become standard across the industries we have like people building in the playing systems and then people saying wait a minute this is harming me or somebody and every time it's like surprising I think we need to get past that moment and I'm hopeful that we're we're about to move past it into something more like standardization around how we build these systems better in general as well as you know we're about to have some stronger regulatory oversight I think so I'm hopeful about those aspects of it I am fearful.

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It doesn't compare this is a difficult hive you know it's like it's a global pandemic it's a global ecological collapse we've built we've built an economy that externalize many of the most important important aspects of the inputs to production and distribution and we've learned that that's absolutely not sustainable and if we continue doing that.

[00:52:02]
We destroy the possibility for human life on planet Earth. And so we've come to recognize that a little bit late in the game I'm fearful. Will we move fast enough to rectify you know that problem. But. I like this question I always like to refer the Italian tourist Antonio Brown she who says we need to have.

[00:52:32]
Pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the well so we need to understand deeply that you know the problems that we face and how deep rooted they are and how much it's going to take to shift but we we need to behave as if it's possible to still you know transform them because if we don't you know if we do nothing certainly we all die.

[00:52:58]
Well thank you for that inspiring answer really you've given us so much to think about we're so grateful to have you come speak with us tonight I am going to close a session that's because we're 15 minutes over now but thank you for everyone who has stayed with us and ask questions and and thank you Katherine for hosting and bring such a great guest speaker to Georgia Tech tonight.

[00:53:29]
Well thank you both so much to such a great conversation and for attendees that are still on if you would like to join us for future event my colleague I meet will drop the link to the Georgia Tech and then classes them workshops that are available to everyone online so I'll enjoy this and final thank you for Dr to say the chalk and Dr Lee Keep this is a great conversation and hopefully we can continue this for a casino versus a thing thank you so much.