So thank you for joining us this
evening for a lecture by Bridget chim

I'll just say please stay afterwards
we'll have a question and

answer period as we traditionally do.

Bridget Shem is a principal of shim
stock cliff architects in Toronto and

a professor of architecture at the
University of Toronto as an educator who

began teaching in one thousand nine
hundred eighty eight she has additionally

taught at Yale Harvard University of
Auckland Ecole Polytechnique Federal do

then I'm saying that correctly and
many additional institutions including now

Georgia Tech after graduating from the
University of Waterloo in the early one

nine hundred eighty S. and
honing her skills at Arthur Erickson and

architects and Baird simps Sampson
architects in Toronto shim founded

her namesake firm with partner Howard suck
live in one thousand nine hundred four and

has since created a body of work
that is not only award winning but

highly respected and studied for its
dedication to craft detail materiality and

clarity of concept and execution.

The work of shim suck live includes
projects for private and public and

nonprofit clients and they have designed
boat houses and private houses chapels and

synagogues art studios and
galleries gardens furniture and

even architectural hardware.

Shim stock cliffs projects have
won many many local national and

international recognition in awards and
they have been exhibited and

published throughout the world.

In January two thousand and
thirteen she and

Howard Sutcliffe were both awarded the
Order of Canada for their contributions as

architects designing sophisticated
structures that represent the best of

Canadian design to the world.

On a personal note I first
learned of Bridget's work

when I was a graduate student in Boston
in the mid one nine hundred ninety S.

she was a visiting critic a guest of chair
Max Coggan and she sat on reviews and

gave a lecture which I remember well.

She brought with her a sharp
eye in a resolute vision that

architecture was to be
practiced with exacting care

my takeaway at that time was that as
students we were not to accept thinking or

execution of the architectural
thought that was not honed.

Calibrated strong appropriate and
perhaps even understated

we were to understand that architecture
was to be made and then if we wanted it to

be made we had to understand how it was to
be made and we needed to draw it that way.

Concepts are critical but
materials and assembly matter greatly.

You could say the bridge of shame
is an architect's architect

when we as practitioners and teachers and

appreciators of excellence
in our shared professions.

We search for examples who we
can ply to our students and

we search and we find practitioners like
Brigitte we say here is both mastery and

delight here is an architecture that gives
us pause to realize the spark of insight

as well as the fortitude of
execution involves sophistication

care intricacy and resolve it is
a delight to have Bridget visiting

with us throughout the semester is our two
thousand and sixteen port Portman critic

I know our students are both keenly
aware of her insight and thankful for

her participation please help me in
welcoming Jord to Georgia Tech Bridget

chim.

And everyone here.

You can just wave or
something first of all thank you so

much for your kind introduction it's
really been a pleasure working with

really great faculty David and
Jude and Mark.

Who are really hard.

Can't hear you.

That's.

OK that better that are OK Great OK So
thank you David for

the introduction and
really think you David Jude and

Mark for
a really fantastic studio so far and

it's really been a pleasure meeting
the really engage students.

Which are part of a senior year in
your school and it's been really fun

participating in this Living Building
Challenge which is a very high bar but

I think really worthwhile within a school
context I've also really enjoyed

the women in architecture at
Georgia Tech dinner last night and

thank you to all of them for
hosting a great event.

I would say the framework for
this lecture really came about from

the exhibition which is really the two
are one in the same and all of that

came about from reading the studio brief
for the Portman studio and having some

really great initial discussions
with David about how do you frame.

A studio and what are some of the key
issues that matter I would say for

Howard and I so my partner Howard
is both my partner in practice and

also my husband and so
we still get along and

for both of us architecture resonates at
many scales the human scale the building

scale the urban scale the global scale and
in a way.

I just think that for for

this exhibition that took place in
January February of this year and

as well for the lecture I wanted to
really focus on the question of scale and

to really use it as a frame or
a lens to look at a range of projects and

in a way the yesterday I had
the privilege of meeting John Portman

who at the age of ninety one I think has.

Is a really interesting and quite odd
figure within the history of modern

architecture really as a developer as
an architect I think he was a graduate of

the school in one nine hundred fifty but
also as a kind of sculptor of space and

in a way I just wanted to dedicate this
lecture to him in really his ongoing

commitment to thinking about how
you experience architecture.

So in a way this was the poster for
the exhibition where what we did is on

the different screens within the
exhibition space right up stairs we had

different images operating
at different scales so

on your left the scale of
the landscape in the middle

the scale of the building beyond
that the scale of what we would call

fixtures fittings fixtures
all kinds of stuff and

then finally in the last screen in
the exhibition we had a film that was

actually taken by a young filmmaker who's
been working on a documentary Project

documentary film about one of our
projects so it's about a three and

a half minute clip and so what I'd
like to do is just really go through

each of these different areas that
were part of the exhibition but

before that I wanted to just talk
about what scale means to us and

use a few images of some specific projects
to talk about some of the broader

issues that really matter to Howard and I
with in the discipline of architecture so

if you can kind of imagine we'll
do a little introduction and

we'll look at each of the three scales and

then I'll play the video at
the end as part of the finale and

then I'm happy to answer questions
after that so so bear with me

it's a kind of something I've kind of put
together just for this exhibition and

the lecture and so we'll see how it goes.

So really this issue of
the command of scale is really.

Central to our discipline I would
call it a sense of scale scale

is really a component not about creating
objects but really a palpable spatial

experience that it's all about creating a
place and in a way I don't know many of my

students don't actually use these we still
do they're like the architects scale and

it's really something about
measurement and thinking about how we

conceptualize the relationship of
all of these scales together and

that no one scale is that important but it
really participating in a larger spatial

experience that moves from inside
to outside and back in again.

So it's a human scale is central to our
discipline and computers provide such

amazing opportunities for dexterity of for
making the links between design and

fabrication but in a way I feel
sometimes quite sad in thinking

that we've sort of somehow lost
this very tactile sense of scale

I just want to put these up really like
Leonardo da Vinci's Vitruvian Man look or

bluesy is modular man
architectural graphic standards

this idea of humans interacting with
their environment is really essential and

we as architects need to be the experts
in the field of human measurement and

this question of scale.

We have to think about Windows
steps doorways railing seedings

fixtures these are all our
tools to help a shape space and

also shape this kind of human experience
that we talk about so I would say that we

are less interested in the object
over articulation of the object and

more fascinated and really obsessed
with this kind of spatial idea.

So in a way when you think about this
question of scale I think of my Greta kind

of amazing artist this is one of his later
works from the one nine hundred fifty S.

and one of the this is an original piece.

That's actually at the Art Gallery of
Ontario which is our local archaeology in

the city of Toronto and it's really
described as this kind of kind of

experience a kind of human perception so
in a way this kind of thing that's too big

to actually fit in the room is is
something you're confronted with.

This is a snapshot from
the quale long garden

in the northeast corner of the Forbidden
City this garden retreat was for

the queen long Emperor one of the most
regarded emperors in China and

in a way the scale of the Forbidden City
if you have in your mind's eye is

intimidating it's Caylus it's enormous
this Emperor's retreat which is which

was his retirement garden is full of these
larger than life elements so the scale of

this kind of scale lessness and the scale
of this thing that's actually too big for

the space or
this amazingly interesting contradiction.

Another Tronto example for
us is a sculpture by Richard Serra

it's made up of six large concrete
forms twenty centimeters thick

one point five metres high and
these forms are actually at exactly

the same height and
the grade into poverty keeps changing so

it becomes a measurement of scale
within this you Norma's vast landscape

it's actually a piece from the seventies
that I think is very under publish

not always understood and represented
within Sarah's larger body of work but

I think an interesting way to think
about how we measure landscape.

So I guess if we move forward I just
wanted to kind of talk about it's so

scale is not something that
we think about like as as

a specific isolated item we actually
think about it all the time and we

actually think about it within the context
of much larger issues Toronto is that for.

Three degrees latitude and
light shapes our architecture in a way

architecture is also shaping light and so
we're there's a reciprocal relationship

at forty three degrees latitude we
worry about amplifying winter light.

And in a way shading summer light so this
kind of seasonal contradiction this is

an interior view of one of our projects
in a back alley in downtown Toronto and

so in a way in in every project light is
a kind of it's a medium that we work with

in a way this is a kind of example
of a more diaphanous light inspired

by a black locust tree and
in a way in the garden beyond this

project is a kind of remnant of a
Carolinian forest starts off in North and

South Carolina and in Toronto on
the north shore of Lake Ontario

you you have a remnant
piece of this forest and

in a way this mature black
locust a celebrated And so

this space started off with
paper studies M.D.F. mockups and

then water jet cut steel So
again thinking about light

transparency degree of opacity
versus visual connection.

In a way as Canadians were always covering
up our structure with insulation and so

this is a seasonal building which allows
us to the luxury of us exposing structure

frames with metal tire odds that almost
feel like you're tuning a violin

when you're actually tightening up the
structure using off the shelf greenhouse

glazing up above and so
very simple elements to create

a kind of major communal space for
a summer camp then

in the center we're using two by fours to
really create light monitors and these

really act as a kind of measurement of
light through the day and so in a way the.

The idea that we're pushing light
into the middle of the building and

this is really the gathering space for
all the kids and the counselors for

three meals a day this is called
the Moreland's camp dining hall and

it's an inner city camp for youth at risk.

This was a a sacred space a spiritual
space for we're really celebrating light

as part of the daily experience this
is a synagogue in Portland Maine and so

what you're seeing beyond is actually
both a clear story which is on this

surface a sort of vertical surface
combined with a skylight and

then there's a wouldn't fit in and
so maybe I can just explain so

this so this piece is the wooden angled
fan and so depending on the time

of day that you're in the space
the light is either in front or

behind this angle plane and so
you can actually start to tell time

by actually the way that light is in
the space the building is actually

clad in a traditional clabbered
on the outside and it's also

the same clabbered is used on the inside
but we actually inverted the clabbered So

normally clabber gives you lines of shadow
and we actually wanted lines of light so

we had to instruct the contractors
to install the clabber

the wrong way but
it was an inside application and

I think it took them a while but they
kind of figured out what we were trying

to get so.

They didn't think that we were
totally crazy by the end of winter for

us is a very long season except for
this year and

so really we have to think about how our
buildings will look in a snowstorm we

think about using materials that really
engage both weather an atmosphere and

how they register and
really create new relationships.

We also wonder in effect about this
issue of scale when we think about.

Winter This is a project
in old apple orchard so

the apples are on an apple trees are on
a thirty foot grid in all directions and

so we really think about this kind of
their verdant condition in the summer but

also we're interested in what
they look like in winter.

We also think about our spaces not only
from the outside in but from the inside

out here we are at the kitchen sink and
we're really between the rows of the apple

trees and we're really almost in the
orchard not viewing it as an object but

actually occupying it from the interior.

For us Winter creates all kinds of
amazing conditions allowing us to

register the subtle shifts of temperature
and changes of state from ice

to steam to fog so in a way we
actually think of water as a kind of

medium in the same way that you think of
wood and steel as a kind of medium for

architecture because of its qualities.

The same project viewed in the summer time
were in effect your crew have a series of

interconnected pools the two in the
foreground have fish and water lilies and

plants and then the one beyond is actually
a lap pool they're visually connected but

separated technically because they
each have very different demands.

In a way one of our very first projects
here which is a garden pavilion

has no windows no doors the only
mechanical system is a fountain for

a pump a pump for a fountain and
in a way this early project of

ours really engaged for us landscaping
architecture furniture fittings and

fixtures we designed benches and
bridges we worked with about a ton and

a half of rusting steel and
in a way without really knowing it

many of the issues that we
actually addressed in our first.

Ject I would say we continue
to address many years later so

in a way it forms a kind of manifesto or
a kind of areas of interest that are for

us so first trial enough that
they we look at these things and

question things over and over again
the shifting horizon line the role

of the retaining wall these
are questions that I think for

us are still relevant in
the work that we're doing now.

We're also very interested
in making the shaping and

engaging of very tactile processes
This is Howard a flame cutting

this time in a half of rusting steel but
I would say that as our practices

continued We still do mockups
we still make models sometimes

they're cardboard sometimes they're
full size are made of real materials

we have amazing relationships with a whole
range of fabricators contractors come and

go but fabricators are really valuable and
we've developed really special long term

relationships with many people
that are part of the making and

so we work with them on large scale things
big scale things medium scale things and

there are many many collaboration's
in many different ways.

So this was a photograph that we
took several decades after our first

project and in a way this gives you
a sense of the role of nature the impact

of nature on everyone's work and we really
think about projects at the outset and

wonder whether it will make a good ruin or

not and if it will make a good ruin
it might make a good project so

this kind of thinking about time
how you embed time in the work and

the way that materials age
that particular a rusty

they do different things than the nature
also takes over at the same time and so

it's a very dynamic relationship
between architecture landscape and

I think that we're very interested
in not making it perfect or.

Hermetic but actually the kind
of intertwined tangling and

intertwining of those relationships
are very interesting for us.

So Canada is the second largest land mass
in the world after Russia and no matter

how big a building you build it's always
small in relation to the land and so

I think that you're always having to think
about the footprint of your building and

the impact of it on a much larger
territory so the idea of how

you extend the reach of something that
may not be physically that large but

has to to somehow capture a much larger

territory is a very interesting
question that we think about a lot so

things extend and go beyond and
we're always linking water and

retaining walls as a way of actually
extending the kind of impact

of something that may actually
be quite small or tiny.

We're also thinking about this
relationship of foreground and

background so here in this image
you have a sort of this Carolinian

forest Maples walnuts the black locus So

that is your found condition in
addition there are some native plant

material lower shrubs that have been added
and then we're creating as the architects

the foreground to this natural condition
so this oscillation between foreground and

background is something that we we think
about a lot in this kind of way of

architecture actually framing a found
condition and making it legible and

understandable not by you seeing
everything but by these glimpses or

contained almost a tab
lows that you're creating.

And again you'll see as we move
through a on going interest if you're

interested in these spatial relationships
then we think about things like chairs and

lamps and door handles and
boat cleats because they're really part.

Of this other scale of interest that
we have so this is something we called

to have chair out of metal we
call this the Firefly lamp and

I kind of sense of this
kind of ongoing sort of

interest in making and fabricating.

This is a kind of we always think of
hardware as the handshake of a building

and so we're always experimenting with
steel bronze stainless steel we're really

working with materials to study
them like clay and paper three D.

plastic prints and then we've been working
with a lot of three D. metal prints and

so really using technology using all
of the resources that we have available

maybe the most important thing is knowing
when something should be cardboard and

when it actually is ready to
become something in metals so

we're kind of I think one of
the issues is the judgment of knowing

how to kind of work back and forth.

From from one state to the other.

And then I would say that we're always
trying to capture the wonder and

delight of architecture so
this is a kind of.

Sort of interest in sort of.

A certain playfulness and
an interest in a kind of delight that

I think is essential given the kind
of discipline that we're in so

I'm just going to begin by the scale
of landscape and I'm going to go fairly

quickly through each of these and
maybe not dwell on every single image but

maybe refer to them as a way of
understanding in effect a range of so

I guess it's not chronological it's
not all one type of project we've just

I've just picked a kind of range of images
that were included in the exhibition

that really think about buildings
in landscape or the way of using.

Are thinking about the scale of
landscape and I'll just comment

briefly as we move through just to give
you a sense of the kind of things that

we're thinking about then we'll shift
to the scale of the building and

shift to the scale of the fixtures and
then move on to the film.

So again this is that same camp building
but from the outside thinking about how it

sits this is on the Canadian Shield
it's also a building that is in a fairly

extreme environment we're
using exposed Cedar

where we're working with
very local materials again

combining very ordinary materials with
local materials so the top is actually

a greenhouse glazing it's an off
the shelf ready made greenhouse used for

large industrial greenhouses it's all
motorized So it brings light into

the middle but it also gives ventilation
below that is a kind of standard

mad all roof that's used for
barns so that's right here and

then the local cedar so
in a way trying to really.

Think about the presence of a building
when it's viewed from the dog the kind of

way that by extending it an additional
bear you have outdoor spaces that

are covered and really you know how it
situated in our Canadian Shield landscape.

This is actually a project in the Thousand
Islands which is in the St Lawrence River

and so here you have a clover meadow
that is seeded we really like the kind

of agrarian landscape and
the way that things have a cycle so

the same clover dries out later in
the season a local farmer cuts it down and

it grows back the House is really
about a long retaining wall.

And the house becomes an appendage to
this much longer piece of this armature.

This is the interior space.

Where surrounded by reflecting pool
the reflecting pool is almost as large

as the house so it becomes another garden
there's a cubic volume in the middle so

this kind of idea of ways to view
landscape from the inside and

then thinking about
landscape from the outside.

So here you're looking
at the water garden and

this kind of proximity to
water the kind of interlock

relationships of water where on a daily
level you're experiencing the kind of

reflection of the water lilies
on the underside of the ceiling.

And here this kind of water landscape and
so in a way landscape can take many forms

this is a pretty remarkable water
garden and it's been lovingly cared for

and really working with all
native plant material and

it's become a kind of ecology unto itself.

This is a project in Toronto
where again part of the work was

to actually retain as many of the existing
trees as possible and work with those

trees to create in effect a foreground
to the actual project itself so

this kind of oscillation an interest
in foreground and background.

Because in a way we see that it's
fundamental to place making here we're

using horizontal all weathering steel and
then powder coated aluminum panels and

combining the two as part of this project.

And then long it standard retaining walls
that go way beyond the project itself

to actually bring you into the project
from the edges of the site.

We like to create bridges internally
within things where you're always passing

over and
experiencing water in this proximity and

the kind of way that it embeds
itself in your everyday life is for

us very important.

And then the site how many.

Our sites have a lot of topography is
here continuing down the ravine edge.

And extending to kind of other layers so
the whole project becomes a series of

terraces some inhabited
sun some uninhabited

lots of you know retaining walls that
are really allowing this kind of

way of experiencing the land.

And then a kind of interest again
in different materials this is our

weathering steel house so
the idea that materiality and

the presence of materials is
really important for us so

here we are in a kind of more suburban
landscape from the outside and

then a kind of interiority but you're not
inside you're really still outside and

here you're seeing these water elements
pushing into the project itself so

this kind of a capacity to kind of connect
to the water in very different ways.

This is the synagogue
that you saw earlier and

this is a kind of space gathering
space before you actually enter

the sacred space and
you're looking at the landscape beyond.

So here you're actually seeing this
clabber that goes from inside to outside

and you're seeing the clear storey
window beyond a reflecting pool and

then if you were to kind of take another
step further you would see a very thin

skylight and this kind of section
this articulated section actually

creates the kind of light conditions
that you saw on the inside.

So this is the garden and

we work really with a community group so
we actually design the armature of it and

there was a garden committee and
they've been amazing and so

we get pictures every couple months of
the kind of development of this garden and

it's become really a kind of community
project and so here you're actually.

In the sacred space under the covered
area looking out to the garden itself and

it's now become a place where they
actually have services and events and so

they actually will literally
move from inside to outside

as part of their service.

This is a sign for a public park that
we designed called Ledbury park and

we actually included a plan of
the park in the sign itself and

here you see it what happens
is in the very far distance

is a local public school
this was a site that had.

A baseball diamond an outdoor hockey
rink everything was falling apart and

we were asked to really design a.

Skating Rink and a swimming pool and
so we used this kind of

public walkway to create a link
between residential streets and

a shopping street so it became a kind
of public walkway through so you're

seeing the reflect the swimming pool and
then there's a long skating can now and

then these walls that allow for
accessibility to cross up and over.

So here you are looking at the Pavilion
for changing your skates on the left

the change rooms for the swimming
pool behind the brick wall and

then the swimming pool itself beyond and

what we did is we raise the swimming
pool several feet above natural grade so

that when you were on the pool deck you
could actually look out over the park.

We also designed the lamp poles and
different heights

family of lamp poles and then this is the.

The the bridge crossing over and
so you actually skate under

the bridge you're at the ski
changing prevail you.

We also created a small urban space
with winter water that is a kind of

part of this public route through.

And then a view from the other side of
the skating canal in the winter and

what we actually did and it's interesting
in relation to a lot of the earth moving

projects that we saw in the Portman
studio is we actually did not move

bring in any new earth so we actually
sculpted and cut this skating canal

to create areas that were
protected from the wind and

we actually didn't bring any new soil onto
the site so we did a cut and fill and

calculated the kind of mounts
that would be relocated and

redistributed so that we actually didn't
need any new soil to come on to the site.

So if we shift to the scale of
the building let's just move through

again we we worked on many
things of different scales this

is a project we call the laneway house so
it's a thirteen hundred square foot house

in a back alley in Toronto
in a way a kind of.

A sort of essay in incremental urban ism
concrete block walls used inside and

outside wooden windows big pivoting
doors that connect the inside

to the outside a garden that's
fifteen feet by fifteen feet and

really a kind of experiment in urban
ism I would say for us as far as our

cities become more intense and denser
we actually need to think about ways

of creating small humane outdoor
spaces that connect us to nature and

allow us to really feel more human.

Again we're looking at the way light
enters projects of the middle of the house

which is normally the darkest
is in this case the lightest so

we're always trying to invert things and
then here you are from the outside looking

in where the concrete block wall
separates you from pickup trucks and

things on the other side and
this kind of inside outside can do.

And again the role of winter in the kind
of way that these intimate landscapes

actually can create a great
deal to your daily life.

In a way in the exhibition I was trying
to show process at the same time so

this is actually quite a small
project it's a summer only project and

it's also on the Canadian Shield The idea
was it was it was a wooden tent So

here's a very early sketch so in a way in
one or two projects I'll actually show

more process and then most of them it'll
be more just specific selected images so

here in a way is a kind of is
the sensibility or the sense of scale of

the project that we want to maintain and
the hard part is actually being able to

to make sure that you've captured it
at the end of the build process so

we often build models there you know.

So when we think of a model we don't think
about a laser cutter we actually distinct

about how to put something together that
actually is almost like a sketch so we're

sketching with with three dimensions and
they become the kind of models that we do.

Later on we end up sort of thinking
in this project because it

was a we were using structural insulated
panels and it was on an island and

everything had to be shipped we actually
had to know every component the bolts

if you forgot something it would not
be that easy to run around the corner

to get something from
the hardware store so

it was almost like a military operation
and understanding every component piece

also lightness was a big issue so
these are the kinds of drawings that we

would send to our fabricators making
sure that everything was correct but

it wasn't overdrawn and so this is
Central nys it was really important and

often it's really you know when
students come into your office or

graduates they want to drop everything to
make it look so official and it just ends

up costing you a lot more money and so
part of the kind of art is to actually do.

Make sure that everything is accurate and
correct but

it isn't necessarily overdrawn.

What we like to do is full size mockup So

here we've actually built a full
day of the entire project and

we had structural engineers come
in actually sign off on it so

almost the opposite of what you would do
and in a way allowing a level of lightness

that was kind of part of the brief and
then this looks like Tom Sawyer and

Huckleberry Finn what you're actually
seeing are the structurally insulated

panels coming from a dog
on to the bar which

gets on to the Canadian Shield and so
here they are stacked up kind of ready and

so what you have is all of your
finishes and insulation and so

the definition of prefab is actually
just assembling these four by eight

panels as opposed to so there's no heavy
equipment there's no cranes there's no

other than some power tools that's
about to put the whole thing together.

And then the kind of Canadian Shield
saw a really an amazing post-glacial

landscape imagine after the last ice
age the kind of ice just scrapes

everything off of the ground so
there's almost so much expose rock

what soil there is this for for
this sort of stunted trees and

they're all shaped by the West Wind so you
can see them all tilting to one side and

you can definitely tell the direction
of the prevailing winds.

So on the inside you're actually seeing
the result of these six panels assembled

a different interpretation of the
greenhouse clays ing exposed structure and

really creating this idea
of a wooden porch and

then within it sort of shaped elements and
looking back to the landscape is a kind of

a long horizontal slot that
provides cross ventilation so

these kind of different kinds of apertures
for different viewings of the landscape.

And then again the way light enters
the space becomes really essential and

important.

And then elements like large sort
of panels these are fiberglass or

insect screens so they move in and
just according to the prevailing winds and

the kind of weather so again these
would be changing throughout the day.

Another project that we worked on was
the permanent collection of the African

collection of the our
calorie of Ontario so

really creating in effect
a room within a room and so

here you have what we call the printer
gallery so the main gallery the main

art gallery itself was done by Frank Gehry
completed in two thousand and eight and

this is one permanent installation
within the larger Gary gallery so

here you are as part of
this printer gallery.

And then we created what we wanted
to feel like was an interior

courtyard within this large building and
so we actually used and

great oak we have glass walls and

we used a large wooden table
as the actual display for

these human sized pieces in addition
there are a series of portals or openings

that allow you to actually see from one
inner room to the outer room and there so

that these large three dimensional
pieces can be viewed from the front and

the back and that they don't
have any glass between them so

we have to work really hard with
the museum curators to really be able to

convince them not to place all
these large sculptures under glass.

So here's a view of the back
side of one of the other pieces.

And then a recent project in
Hong Kong where again it's

a more interior project but we're
actually looking at the display of arch

the art is on the floor
this is a gym Lambie.

So it's all metallic tape and the ceiling
we wanted them to be perfectly clean and

so we're working with L.E.D. lights along
this upper ledge providing full and

complete illumination of the art walls.

A series of vertical wooden fins in
white oak along the right hand side and

then all of the walls
at the end are bronze.

And the art work goes through the entire
project so it's an art gallery and

foundation Art Foundation So here's one of
the offices within the art foundation and

then the stair which
goes up three floors and

again you're just walking on the art.

Bronze.

Reception desk and for us it was
interesting we ended up working with

companies in mainland China and
large Chinese factories to kind of.

Create and make all of these pieces and
then they had to crane them up

the entire the exterior of a thirty story
building and bring it down the stair to

get it into the space of
building a ship in a bottle.

And then custom lights
that are part of it.

A very small project in Toronto
about five hundred square feet and

this is kind of studio.

We actually applied for a building
permit for a garage because with

a garage you can actually build right
on our property line and by doing so

it meant that we could really position and
place the building in the right location

if we called it a studio you'd have to
have sided rear yard setbacks it just so

happens our client doesn't drive so.

We're interested in again this question of
light so there's a very thin skylight and

a series of wooden coughers
along the top and.

Very simple walls down below extremely
low budget but it's all about the lumen

asa the of the space and again
a ceiling that has no lights in it but

light is actually hidden and part of
the experience and so the cadence and

the dimension of these wooden
coffer shifts from each wall so

this is the south facing wall the last
image was the kind of west and

then and then the east facing wall.

And then another built project that
is of a different scale it's for

the Sisters of St Joseph of
Toronto some amazing religious

women that founded for hospitals the daily
bread food bank the furniture bank

as an aging group of religious women
they needed to create a home for

themselves we found a site that
had an eight hundred fifty S.

house on it overlooking a ravine and

the first question they asked
was Can we move the house.

Can we demolish it can we move it it
didn't really mean that much to them

in the end it took several months but we
actually convinced them that was actually

better to keep it than to tear it down and
that we were able to incorporate

it within the larger project
extremely green agenda so

sixty four geothermal pipes
doing all the heating and

cooling P.V.
panels solar hot water preheat but

really a kind of idea about a home and
so what happens is single loaded

double loaded corridors in the middle
single loaded corridors on either end and

sisters rooms that look out of
this natural revealing context.

So here you're seeing the kind
of main eight hundred fifty S.

house that is used as guest rooms for
the sisters meeting rooms and

then the new project itself and
so this side of the praja.

After a whole series of
single loaded corridors.

Of view from the sidewalk
with a kind of series of.

Grasses and natural landscapes.

And then we actually developed a series
of vertical elements on the exterior that

provided shading for
the single loaded core doors and

a kind of shaped unarticulated elevation
so you're looking at the bottom of

the shape weathering steel combined
with powder coated aluminum.

And so here you're seeing the kind of.

Elevation where the kind of inside
curve is the powder coated aluminum and

then the outside curve is
the weathering steel and

then a cantilevered weathering steel
canopy and then underneath the driveway

are the sixty four geothermal pipes
to do all of the heating and cooling.

This is the lobby of the project with what
we call our peanut columns so there's

a kind of double column on a single column
in these actually hold up the space you're

looking at the driveway and
the city beyond the very thin lobby and

then the reflecting pool and
then the edge of the chapel.

So in a way we did this so that at the
upper level you get natural ventilation

in all of the sisters rooms.

And because it was their home we really
wanted the option for them of kind

of more domestic context and
being able to open your windows and

have control over your daily environment
these are the single loaded core doors and

you're seeing exposed
concrete here a sort of shelf

with a lot of the cabling and conduits.

The floor and
then the inside wall is in white oak.

Every sister's room has both a window and
a door.

So there becomes different
ways of people in gauging

on a daily basis you can close your window
close your door open your window open

your door open your window close your door
and sisters are really in control of this

kind of level of publicness or
private miss.

And then the heart and soul of
the project is the chapel it's a kind of

a room that looks out
onto the landscape and so

here you're seeing a kind of upper level
of mezzanine where sisters that are really

infirm can come right from their rooms
into the upper level of the chapel and

then here you're at the lower
level of the chapel.

And the space really embraces the exterior
so you're really again pushing the water

in you're using vertical fins to create
a level of sun shading in the space and

then at the level of being seated you're
really viewing both out the landscape and

then into the neighborhood at the same
time so this kind of dual condition.

And then one of our recent projects that
we just finished which is a temple for

a group of Taoists Taoism is one of
the oldest religions in the world and

in a way as part of
Taoism it's both mind and

body so they do touchy as part
of their spirituality and so

this is the exterior of the building and
so when we actually

showed them a very small cardboard model
they looked at it and they said Whip horse

which is actually a touchy move it's
actually an asymmetrical move and

the project is supported on a series
of concrete structural Piers and

then there's a cantilever on one side and
then a can't a lever on the other so

they love the fact that it was
actually harmonious and in balance but

not symmetrical and so that sort of was
one of the guiding elements through

the house the area where they're actually
doing Taichi this is actually the hottest

day of the year and it provides
like a huge canopy for them to do.

What they do it also is a parking
area at other times of the year.

So here's a view of again you can
see it's all permeable paving and

that you park between these bays.

And it's also the space for
them to do touchy.

And here you can see the cantilever
from the back side a large R.

Cheerio road beyond and so
you can see where one can to lever and

then the other cantilever
which is the outdoor terrace.

So here's a view of the terrace.

Providing a kind of contained outdoor
space and then the canopy is what

you saw at the front really signaling the
front entrance to the project is a very

small elevator lift bringing you
from the parking level up as well.

And then on the inside of the space we
actually wanted to create in effect

a modern but ancient temple we worked with
circular sort of ready made skylights and

created these kind of light monitors
bringing light in different ways into

the space we actually created a memorial
hall at the back where you can honor your

ancestors and then it was our first
project where we worked with gold leaf so

all of these are gold leaf kind of
filled in Chinese characters and

all of the walls are wire brush Cedar.

And then here they are sort of
doing their tight cheap outside.

So the last category is
fixtures fittings and

fixtures furniture fittings and
fixtures and

in a way these are experiments that we've
just been doing for our entire practice so

we just like to tinker and try things at
different scales this was an early project

a faucet where we couldn't find anything
that was off the shelf that we liked so

we just made one had it chromed and
figured out how to do that.

This is an early sketch of a boat
cleat kind of project that we did for

a boat house so here you're actually
seeing the cardboard the middle is a sand

casting and then here you're seeing
the bronze version with purchase

ready made stainless steel shackle and
so in a way here's the final thing and

we're always interested in combining
sort of ready made purchased

with customized pieces and the idea that
they actually create a new thing but

they're combined from
two different things.

Door handles inspired
by horse snow shoes and

then this is actually
bronze rod that we used.

Drawings for lamps custom
lamps where we actually worked

directly with fabricators
to make things for us.

And in one of our projects called integral
House this was a kind of custom sort of

art piece a collaboration between our
structural engineers a glass artist and

ourselves so the space itself has
a skylight above of the treads

of the space are glass and then the walls
are actually handmade blue glass so

you're seeing the inside of it on the left
and then the outside are a series of cast

bronze clips and those clips
are supporting stainless steel cables

that hold the whole construction up so the
idea that the outside doesn't always look

like the inside on the outside
is revealed in different ways.

And then we actually modeled in
Rhino the clips we had the sand cast

of this a limited run and
then here they are installing it and

they wanted them to almost
read like musical notes.

Here again is one of
the earlier images you saw and

what you have is a series
of experiments for

a door handle it starts off in clay
A then a series of plastic three deep.

It's shaping reshaping it and

then the final one in cast
is cast in stainless steel.

So since then we've gone on to
do lots more experiments so

here you can see in this line it goes
from a wooden version that we whittle

to a series of plastic
printouts to a series of

bronze prints so.

So we'll start with a drawing
will kind of then go through so

here you're seeing the cardboard
the wooden version.

And then several versions of the plastic
and then the three D. printers the final.

And here you're seeing it in situ so so
what we've been doing is developing a lot

of custom hardware for
a specific projects.

And then with the kind of three D.

printing you can actually do lots of
interesting things this is a damper

where you can see open and close and
you can actually develop the mechanism and

the and the actual labeling in
the three D. printer itself.

So again you're seeing the cardboard
version and then the plastic version for

a fire damper.

And then this is the actual final version.

And so here you're seeing it in situ and
in a way part of it is many of these

pieces are quite understated but if you
had to go to a catalogue which we often do

you just want to tear your hair out
because it doesn't nothing fits and so

part of it is the customization and
the current technology is really fun and

it's really great as architects to
actually be able to do sometimes we do

batches and we cast things but other times
we just do one off prints and depending

on the numbers we can make really
quick decisions about what's better.

So again here you can see
this kind of fire damper

within the context of a much larger space.

Custom door hooks like.

Again we can go from crappy
cardboard to too plastic prints and

testing all the way along and
making refinements as we go and

then we can in this case scale them
from big to medium just by the way that

you actually dimension your drawings
that you send to the three D.

printers we actually don't own
a laser printer laser cutter we don't

own any equipment in our studio
it's especially in the three D.

printing in mad all is extremely toxic
hugely expensive and so for us it's so

much better just to kind of use companies
that actually do this kind of stuff.

So here you're seeing the modeling.

And then these are the three D.
prints and bronze.

And then we've been developing towel
rods where we actually do a three D.

printed and in bronze and then match them
with a rod that's in stainless steel so

this kind of combining of
again off the shelf elements.

Some of the furniture that we've been
designing if you look at this little

table on the right.

We were actually able to do a three D.
printed.

Sort of joint that was a custom joint
that we just had three D. printed and

then assembled all the wood pieces so
again the possibilities are great

we did a three D. printed light in
bronze so we've been experimenting so

the entire light is actually a three D.
printing base the Stam

both of the kind of armatures and
they were using L E V lights inside and so

other than the cable which is this kind of
thing here everything else is a three D.

print.

And we actually did some
in with in color and

then others in the natural bronze.

So these are what we call
our Firefly lamps and

here you're seeing them
kind of all pulled.

Part it was really a story of us kind
of one of our early projects where we

were interested in the idea of collecting
fireflies in a mason jar things you do as

a kid and so here you're seeing a drawing
of a kind of literally a mason jar

a kind of series of supports the very
first one we did was actually pieces of

little mylar on piano wire
inside the mason jar and

here is the kind of earliest prototype
that's actually still part of one of

our projects hanging in
an outdoor covered space.

And then we actually developed and
further we went to Corning and

used a scientific class so
again a catalogue glass that they use for

lab experiments this is the small size
there's a medium and this is the large So

we just order it from from a catalog and
and Corning sends it to us.

And then we combine this ready made
peace with stainless steel mash and

a kind of milled base So
again this kind of customized and

ready made together we actually bought so

many of these scientific pieces of
glass that Corning called us and

said What are you doing here because
I don't think anyone had ordered so

many of them as we have so.

And then what we liked is the idea that
when the light is on you actually get

this glow but
then when you turn the light off and

here's a view of the light off you
actually get this kind of afterglow and

you end up with something that
looks like fireflies in a jar so

this kind of playfulness in this
kind of idea that you're kind of.

Sort of creating this kind of
daily condition of on and off and

this bioluminescence that I think
we're always interested in.

A very early project that's a water table

out of weathering steel with places for
water in the project itself.

Trades were working again with weathering
steel creating these Or again many pieces

working with leather and
with steel that's been waxed and finished.

And then custom tables where we're really
interested in the kind of connection

between the leg and the top.

And then again this have share that
we develop so the very first one we

did was a mill worker chair done
in a custom mill workshop but

then we worked with a company called
me and camper that manufacturers and

distributors distributed throughout
North America so again very.

Crappy models here we are with our
models in their fabricating shop

we're working with custom
molds vacuum formed moles and

then here's the actual line that is
this one on the right isn't metal

the one is the other one is in Maple and
it's there's also a version in

walnut and we wanted a chair where
the back side was actually really as

interesting as the front a series of
stainless steel straps that supported and

then everything you touch is
actually metal is wood story.

And then the chair in elevation.

So now I hope the technology works.

So this is a project called
the intergroup house.

It sounds like a student
project it was a house for

a mathematician who's
also a concert violinist.

It's on a steep slope in
sight the program was for.

Curves a concert hall for
two hundred people and

to be architecturally significant So in.

Those areas.

Can you help me here.

OK.

Down there.

So this is about three and
a half minutes and

it's just a slow moving through the space
but the idea was that it actually.

Brought all these scales together and
you could see the relationship between

them where no one scale is
the only thing you think about and

that really in our mind's eye were
actually imagining all these scales

together at the same time and
that this film was actually

I thought a good way to kind of move you
through the spaces from inside to outside

so I would say we continue to engage
at the scale of the landscape

architecture furniture
fittings fixtures and

we also continue to experiment and
probe our ideas through built

work we're always looking to capture
the wonder of architecture in our work and

I really appreciate the opportunity to
share it with you guys thank you so

much thank you happy to

answer any questions if people have any.

Bridges I mean can you talk
a little bit about your.

You're with us in the houses.

Or.

On the body.

Right behind that or is this all we have
one or two projects where you entered

an upper level and as opposed to seeing
everything at once we actually wanted you

to kind of by experiencing the section
The View is revealed and so

part of it is that the translucent above
means that you're aware of the views but

it's not like everything all at once and
that's part of it is the journey to kind

of reveal that the interval house is
actually probably a kind of extreme

example of that because you arrive at an
upper level and you have a kind of living

room slash concert hall for two hundred
people at a lower level and so it's almost

like a wooden curtain opening up so
at the upper level there are ninety seven

different fins that shape different views
so you catch glimpses of the landscape but

you're not fully aware of everything when
you descend down that stair that you saw

in the video it's almost as if the kind
of ravine opens up and becomes so.

A parent.

So this kind of.

Sort of play between what you see and what
you experience and the physicality of that

is something that interests us.

I was.

I was wondering first my question
is what was your inspiration

behind the columns and
just to back that at.

I know through studios there
are many views of the controversy of

using curbs and whether these
curves are arbitrary or not and

I'm pretty sure you have a reason
behind your well used peanut.

Money if you speak to that.

Country so I would say before we had
the project to do the interval house you

wouldn't call us architects that used a
lot of curves but it was actually part of

the program and it was a really amazing
interesting challenge it took us a while

we had to scratch our heads a lot and
in a way it helped us define a kind of our

definition of a more organic
relationship in architecture and

so the Pina columns in the project for the
sisters are actually structural columns

they're really necessary they're not
just a kind of you know nice thing and

so they we could have done to do a double
column so it could have been two single

columns but we decided to do is to
shape them into one call them and

then have a single column on the other
side so it's actually essential for

the structure and it was more
about combining two into one and

then having the third being its own
thing as it was what we developed and

then we actually did.

Worked out a plastic liner for
the concrete form work and

then we reuse did all the way down
to create this repetitive column.

So.

I hope.
That answers your question.

For scale and
you're operating in all of them and

then you're also very interested in.

In craft and in the honing and
I'm wondering

if you operating at all scales and
you honing everything.

What are the sort of measures that keep
you from having much of much knows

you know like be as sure as glass house
goes over the top because everything is is

being worked is being is being
honed is being crafted and the one.

Clue that I got was your use of
the found element in the detail so

I'm curious how you I'm very interested in
how you find the level appropriate level

of finish and
finish at all for scales so so

I would say it varies from project to
project I mean some of them are really

low budget like so ridiculously low and
so you have to really control or

decide on the one detail that the whole
project and in other cases with more

elaborate budgets I think it's about how
you choreograph those relationships so

part of what I was trying to show in the
film was that even though you are thinking

about all these scales you're kind of some
some things you're unaware of until you

get close to them and other things you're
aware of from a distance again it's a kind

of it's a choreography and
I think that again much

of the architecture that I see people
are not thinking at any scale or

they're thinking about the building
as an object and it's pixelation or

manipulation as an envelope and that's
about it and everything else is so you

know sort of from a catalog and they don't
have to worry about it because it's all

standard and it really did the human and
the spatial as a kind of idea and

so in a way I guess where a kind
of you know we're not where our.

Practices eight people we're not
a huge office but we're you know

we don't do any proposal calls we just get
phone calls and we are really busy and

we're doing work in different parts
of the world as well as Toronto and

we just like to experiment and
have lots of fun.

And explore the possibilities we're at
a really interesting point in kind of

fabrication technology and so
the idea of rethinking what craft is

by using you know the most you know the
greatest tools that we have is a really

special time to be an architect I think
the question is there sometimes you still

use cardboard in there sometimes you still
you know just use ordinary stuff but

that that can become or lead to other
things that can be more sophisticated and

so in a way you become the Craftsman by
actually being able to model in a just

things in your computer screen and

then we send it off to some companies
somewhere and we just get a U.P.S.

box back and with all the goodies
inside and then we go back and forth so

this idea that you do a cheap version and
plastic you can figure out what isn't

working in your market when you're remodel
it and then you send it back it's just

really a different way of working
then we did before with Craftsman

we still work with them but in different
ways and but I just feel like that we're

disciplined we're missing
this tactility and

that in a way maybe architects
are abdicating their that possibility and

going to you know fancy renderings and
things like that we actually don't even do

that any renderings like three
three is computer renderings

in our office in the end our clients don't
really it's not like that's essential for

them and we have other tools that
we use to explain our ideas so.

It's a question.

There.

You.

Inform your practice or where you
practice and form your teaching so

I think the question is about
my role as an educator and

which what informs what So I've been
teaching since one nine hundred eighty

eight some of you probably
were not born at that time.

I think that my partner
Howard hates to teach so

he's like he just doesn't people ask him
he's actually a very good critic but

he has no interest in teaching I guess
I feel like when I teach I think

of it as research and so I work on
really just projects you know with my

students that are pushing the boundaries
there are areas that I'm interested in

questions of densification we've done
lots of projects on First Nation

sites in Canada which are really important
for our understanding of who we are as

a country I've worked on a lot of
different speculative projects

we've done lots of studios on laneway
housing or there intensification and so

in a way all of my studios have a research
component which is fundamental to going

somewhere together and then a design
component that emerges out of the research

and there's really for
me always a reciprocity between the two.

And then in a way our built work kind
of does connect so in a way you know we

built a house in a laneway I didn't
know anything about laneways before and

then we continued that research in our
design studio and won lots of urban design

awards forced work that happens happened
in the architecture school I guess

my belief in the role of architecture
schools is that I think that what happens

in architecture schools with students
should shape the future of our cities

it shouldn't we're not we shouldn't be
like the ones tagging along it's that one.

We actually experiment with the issues
that we address in architecture schools

should project the future
of our cities and

in a way there's some really great
example so you know from David that

the Atlanta beltline was a was
a project a student project

in the school we have a project
in trauma called tower renewal.

Where we are one of our students a thesis
on taking one nine hundred sixty S.

twenty story apartment
buildings re skinning them and

using the savings from the rescreening
the energy savings to rebuild the ground

plane to be more specific as opposed to
parking lots and green lawns actually

having community functions and spaces that
actually meet the needs of the people

living in the towers a kind of way of
densify And so you know I think there's

really great projects where they happen as
a student idea as a speculative thing but

they actually have the capacity to
reshape our cities so I think that for

sure there's a reciprocity I think it's
essential I think that you know sort of

we're we're not architects that do we do
a lot of we do some public commissions but

it's we're not a huge scale office we
don't really a lot of those things

are really like so process oriented
they kill you by the end of it and

so we're really more interested
in more like minded clients who

see something in our work and
we go somewhere with them.

And so in a way I would say there's a kind
of public dimension to the thinking that

is part of a collaboration with ours with
my students that where where in effect

a studio can address really ambitious
ideas about the future of our cities so

so I think does that does that answer the.

Kind of reciprocity So
that's why I am really excited about

the studio at Georgia Tech where you guys
are doing a real project you know you guys

got to see real real consulting presenting
those ideas and I think that my.

Any There's a lot of overlap between
many of your ideas and their ideas and

I think there's a kind of empowering of
your understanding of the questions that

you're asking yourselves in the studio
are relevant to a much larger you

know it's not just a school project it's
actually a project that it will probably

be the project of your life it will be an
All those questions that you ask yourself

in your studio now you'll still ask
yourselves twenty years later and

then in a way I was showing
these really early projects so

if I was lecturing to like an AI group I
probably would never show those projects

but in a way it's kind of interesting to
think that your first project has kind of

the capacity to generate enough questions
that you are still asking those same

questions they may be answered in very
different ways in different contexts and

different materials but
they're actually the same questions.

Question here.

Real the nature play a big part of
your work and it's also a pedal

who Living Building Challenge and
this is with this huge red list of banned

materials that you can't use because of
the toxins in the poisons that will be

released into the environment so I'm just
wondering what your thoughts on that and

how that plays a role into your work and
with the fabricators that you work with if

that's something that they're starting to
look into and kind of care about more or

if that's something that you would
have to spec out as architect.

OK So so I guess the.

Material nature is for sure important for

us and
I would say again as we've become so so

Canada nineteen thousand nine hundred
ninety seven eight hundred sixty seven

Canada was from formed as a country twenty
percent of Canadians lived in cities and

eighty percent lived in rural areas
Fast forward to twenty sixteen

eighty five percent of
Canadians live in cities and

fifteen percent live in the second
largest land mass in the entire world so

you know and most of those cities
are within one hour of the year.

Yes For years you have this kind of like
a little band along the bottom where

everybody lives and then fifteen percent
live you know scattered in many of

those towns or
hamlets have no roads to them and so

you have to take a plane like a prop
plane to actually get there so

we have this really kind
of weird disconnect and so

I would say as our society becomes
more urban The idea of nature the kind

of experience of nature actually
becomes essential essential and

and so I think that it's about
humanity in a kind of way of finding

ways to embed nature in our everyday
lives whether that's a reflecting pool or

a small courtyard or or
a kind of abstract in nature I think

it's a really important question I think
the question of material so I actually so

for me I would say this this Living
Building Challenge is actually a very new

aspect of thinking about our future.

I've always been totally frustrated with
Leeds because I felt it was like the wrong

tool that was measuring stupid things that
you know so so it was better than nothing

but really inadequate to actually address
our future so I actually think that

the Living Building Challenge in its
holistic Nisson its ambitiousness in its

comprehensive This is actually
a much more sophisticated.

Way of thinking about the world I
think it's going to take a long time

because it's there's so many pieces to
it but what's great is you guys are at

the leading edge of it the question of
materials is a big question because it's

a it's a materials embodied energy
it's resources it's time resource it's

natural resources it's it's how much
effort goes into manufacturing.

All this stuff and so it requires a lot of
ongoing research by us as architects to

think about how we use
these new measurements and

tools in an interesting way and
it's probably you know.

It'll be a lifetime to kind of
unpack a lot of that stuff and so

great that you guys are learning it in
a school context but it'll probably

again be something that ten years from now
you'll still be addressing you know so

many of these aspects because we're at the
very early stages of a much longer kind of

continuum.

Yes.

I think that's a bit tricky I think
every projects a bit different and

there's no one answer to how
we begin the process I think

like all of you guys I mean you start by
looking closely at the side you're kind of

there's a kind of conceptual idea I
guess for us details are not an end in

itself they're actually just
an extension of a conceptual idea.

And I think that.

You know you.

You work with small budgets
big budgets you kind of.

You know I think that we.

You know.

I mean I think that each each
project itself has certain

directs you to a kind of
a certain process and

then we like making things so we're always
building little models and you know that

are that we typically like to sketch three
dimensionally as the beginning of most of

our process is to figure out where we
want to go and how we want to kind of.

Evolve.

The.
Here.

Well there's one right here.

Where you.

So.

You describe and the relationship
between scales as being reciprocal and

isolating and I was wondering if you
found that these relationships are mostly

between scales that are sort
of adjacent to one another or

have you have you found a compelling
relationship between a chair and

a CD for instance.

Well I was saying a chair is not a
building I could say you know obvious but

so you're not trying to you know
scale up from one to the other

I think each scale has its own issues and
things to think about and then I would say

maybe we're maybe more interested in
the in-between scales than the actual So

you know regular mainstream buildings
aren't really that interesting for us and

you know we could so most of the time
architects just spec a lot of furniture

and we suspect specify certain things but
we also like to play with the kind of

in-between stuff so.

And I think that in a way what you're
seeing is just a lot of thinking about

scale it matters and it's important and
in a way you don't want to meall

of desert you've got it you've got to
figure out how to calibrate the scale and

for each project that calibration
is really different you know so

if it's like a you know five
hundred square foot studio it's

going to be different than something
else that's you know the Project for

the sisters was one hundred thousand
square feet and you know just a different

just a different scale and so you're
really using different tools at different

scales it's not like you can just you
know I figured out the scale so I'll just

keep repeating it I just think each case
you just have to really think through.

Through that so
it's just more of tuning your are and

understanding to to
the appropriateness of each scale.

That is that help.

Great thank you thank you.