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>> The thank. You. This is a living history interview with Ed Rainey class of 1960 conducted by Marilyn summers and Maisie 11 see here 2011 we are at his home in Hilton Head South Carolina and that's the reason we're here today is your experiences at Georgia Tech in D.H. or life in general and rainy thank you so much for allowing us to come here today it's a pleasure to be here beautiful day in South Carolina on the coast here they tell us it may rain but not today so we're happy happy to be here with you and I want to start your story at the beginning so if you would sir tell me where you were born and we and it's always a pleasure to have you here and appreciate your coming actually I was born in Columbia South Carolina and grew up in Atlanta so I'm Carolina was home and a certain part of it in the early part of my life but I mainly was in Atlanta and what you were born in 1936 What were your parents doing in Colombia and 936 Why were they there.

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My mother was there in Colombia she actually my biological father and she going to get it had gotten a divorce and she was in Colombia with me and that's why I was there in Colombia so actually grand reigning was my stepfather but he's the only father I ever knew so I've always considered him father and he always considered me his son and we never used the terms step with one another we were always father and son how old were you when he married your mother Bal 3.

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I think 3 they know one question did not remember anything before that so that makes very good sense and once you started building your memories he was that he was fine and frankly your mother was from Colombia. Do you remember her parents yeah say when we were very.

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Frequently over to Colombia from Atlanta and visit them and I love them both very much what did your grandparents do for Louis your grandfather do for a living he was a dentist he was a dentist wife owned and a nice stable position it was there always and what did you call him pop and what did you call your grandmother Grandma Grandma Grandpa and you frequently went to see them did they welcome in the embrace your subsequent settlings that came along of course they would because that their grandchildren Yeah so the whole family would go there so you know they.

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Then. I'm trying to remember when they died but yeah they would of they leave me with him into your growing up time you know or so they knew my younger siblings too there was a gap of 7 years between May and my next youngest said you are seeing your By 7 years to your let's talk about 1st about your mother and your father got married.

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When you were about 3 years old and you have to recollection of the wedding already didn't like that you probably were not invited it could be possible it's possible you were there you know how they met my mother had come to Atlanta to work for Devereaux McClatchey who was no a lawyer in Atlanta and is I think grandfather or father or something is one for whom my client you park is named which is in and so the park then it's kind of a landmark in Atlanta but.

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In that time in South Carolina she was unable to get a divorce because of the conditions that existed in NY biological father was an alcoholic and apparently in South Carolina at that time a woman could not divorce a man for that particular reason so she had to set up residency in Georgia which did permitted so she commuted from Columbia to Atlanta for the I guess 2 or 3 years between my birth and and when she and my dad got married.

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And she was working for definite Clanchy and he introduced her to my dad well that's very cool and what was your dad doing in Atlanta where he comes from he was born there you know he was in Atlanta native And yeah right and he'd gone I'm going to guess he would get Emory University he didn't because you said you don't leave papers or so that must have been his alma mater in that so he lives pretty much his whole life in Atlanta Yeah and it was just this kind of lawyer who introduced your mom and dad they had a courtship they married and you permanently got moved to Atlanta then it's going back but you visited back and forth now did you did Mr Rainy have parents that you met your grandma and grandpa there that I'm very vague on that because they know I'm not sure why that we didn't want to get close to his parents and I remember we visited them when I was very young but so young that my you know got in there and I just don't have a clear image of them wonderfully passed away early I'm not sure you know it's just one of those history mysteries.

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OK So when your mom and dad married but it took them a few years before they started having children because I know there were 7 years so how many children did they have after you 33 and they are in order to sons and a daughter and the oldest is.

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Family Secret is called whirly don't know his real name is Glenn Jr but for some reason he got that name as it were looking like something that turns around that holds round and round wow things came out of his deceased that yes he'd finally succumbed. And starts using it not formally but I mean in the family he refers to himself if that were really maybe.

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The 2nd he'd probably killed. The whole journey that but they don't and the 2nd on his Hal and he's just how and the 3rd one was Mary Tendo and she's married then don't we color Tendo in the family I do use her middle name in there and my dad always called her tank because that was the time that Walt Disney's Tinkerbell rose and when you know sweet that's kind of touchy and how much younger is she's in you 12 years so much so they had those in both kids pretty close together you know dad 2 years 23 years if you grew up in a pretty bleak household there's a lot of action going on when you've got 4 children in the family there's a lot going on do you know what year it was that you could remember back to what your earliest memory is think about do you remember you don't remember much of Columbia at all you know the house you lived in or anything there well actually I can and what can you remember.

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The situation there was that my mother was living there with me it was a big town. I know that my grandfather and Bill's about 1006 I think they had my grandmother had 5 actually had 6 children one died in infancy so there was plenty of room in the house and my mother and brother of hers were living there and he and his wife and a son of theirs it was my 1st cousin So you were living family then you know and I can imagine an early member in your memories of being with Jimmy as he's called he now lives over and Buford about the way that's so far not so fine when you visit him on a regular basis but he and I were very close when you're young and I think those are probably my earliest memories I think you know from playing with him and you can remember what the House kind of looked like in your mind and that's it that's nice to be able to go back and see that So what you came on to Atlanta core 7 years old you were ready to go to school you probably went to school 1st where my 1st memory of school was that when I think we would call a daycare center today I remember it isn't this and it was all I knew of any school program of some private not public of course we had kindergarten publicly Yeah I think we did because I did going to kindergarten Yes we usually go I know which mainstream school and I didn't know it had a kid or it did it did then and so you went to kindergarten 1st missed the net then kindergarten you were well schooled by this.

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And you went into 1st grade asprin St then right through the 7th grade you know that that time you went through 7th and then into 5 grades of high school they didn't have a middle school did you like going to school. You know I think you didn't dread it or anything you know well you know you were all you were the only child Yeah so I would imagine for socialization you would have loved just to be with all the images and every one of those do you remember walking to school or did somebody drive for the bus or there was a school but as I was and where did the family live at that time and as we parked on a redrive OK so that one had to find a way but you have too far to walk that's for sure you know do you remember your 1st grade teachers name have and thanks for that it's uncanny how many of us can remember I can remember my 2nd grade teacher going to what was her name as young Mrs Young I don't know why I remember her but well I think you know it's a phenomena that people do remember 1st or 2nd grade teachers and will not remember anybody and from then on maybe a high school event on this they had a really strong mentor teacher but they made an impression those early teacher made an impression they touch you how to read and write do your numbers although you may already have known knows it.

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By the time he went to school I don't think so you think you buy the learn to learn along in order and and then here you are just what the 2nd great 7 years old when your mom has another baby and you're old enough not to feel competitive with this baby.

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I would assume because these kids are far close together they can be a lot of rivalry but I imagine you just accepted Well I did for a while and I got into some pretty good telesales when we were in their teen years O. course absolutely living in a family and as a as a child it's no big deal but when you get.

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The older you get the less the age difference makes and you're more on an equal footing but when you were 7 years old and he was a baby you know yeah reason they probably wanted you to take care of him sometimes or help a person thing alone in those lines one of my early experiences with him was I when my mother would marry them.

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She would let him run around the house completely and I could yeah and one day she realized that he was no longer running around the house and had gone out of the house apparently he was about 2 or 3 years old all the time so she said go look out front I'm going to look out back or something like that and I member running out the front door thinking Good grief.

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For I netted baby how would fare and I went across the street I think there was a neighbor on his porch or something so I ran over there wondering how do I present this and told him about it then he said Well isn't that pointing down the street woman coming with a baby in arms and it was my neighbor who recognized my brother even without clothes had scooped him up on Piedmont Avenue which was just around he was half Yeah well I was about half a block from the house and so here she came carrying and in and save me great embarrassment I can't imagine what I would have done if I'd found in a day or what I've gotten home my goodness well you must a scared your other half to death and I'm sure you have to lose the baby that way that's not a good day or anywhere I was not so so close to traffic and in return it's pretty fair So yes a strong memory for you you won't forget that when I Love You Don't let him forget either.

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Family gathering I try to keep Yeah I'm told is in the people that's for sure Did you have a happy coming up childhood I mean did you enjoy your life living in going to school I just pray ST Yeah. Me Did you make friends that you've had all your life.

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Unfortunately the ones I made there are no longer with us but that's true until recent years I had you know I've been close relationship that lasted and some the ones I now have are out of high school like what was it like. In flea park at that time it was a neighborhood that had other children around you know the fact that you were only child isolate you were there were other kids to play as well as a very interesting place so you're familiar with and family policy a sickly Yaniv a little.

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Can demonstrate that onto itself in the middle of that land and they the kids just roam free there and we had little bands that were not exactly gangs and we didn't ostracize people who just said you know hung out together and one day there'd be a certain group and another day there'd be a different group and we roamed all over and flee park and so you had freedom and when you have a good idea as a park is noted for its complexity of the streets because they all defended you not on that over there when you know you had a lot of green space there to show you know the right thing and I imagine it your time it was even more rugged then you know they've been developed some but you probably had trees and that has changed very little and they use it so you have a much established that way when we were there that the lots were all built on the houses were from thirty's and some earlier than that one great big one and some were not the right real mixture of architecture and interesting thing about applying there are these groups of kids was that we hardly ever played that a car didn't stop and ask for directions to get out of an Israeli public eye.

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You do it like a bank you're his dad we didn't know the street names but we knew how to get him not down there many times because there's no way to go that you know you're going to end up somewhere I think panic and run so it is very confusing if you want to end up on the Peachtree side and you find yourself over on the you know court and juniper side you know it's just very confusing I was not really very confusing but I do admire the little parts of things there and I've had people tell me from way back I remember your viewing a woman who told me her Girl Scout troop used to come by her house on the weekend mornings and they would March down to one of the parks and they would learn their campfire skills they're setting up you know not tempting but you know building a little campfire learning already in their packages and.

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So I picture it that way you know it was a very safe place I went well and then and probably in retrospect a very privileged place because you got freedom and there was wonderful I do remember that freedom aspect Yeah because nobody was everybody knew everybody were safe but you were your mom didn't wonder where in the same hill you were none of the mothers did you know you just left and had a came back and did your mother stay home and mother or did she go back to work where she worked part time as I teacher and public school system and then she had gone to college yeah because she wanted to Randolph Macon and spent a year at this hour bombing and Paris so she was well educated and so I mean the part time substitute teachers and or part time teacher you know.

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Well having a mother for a teacher should ensure that you would do well in school and then having a father for a professor I would think that everybody your family was fairly well educated on that would have been one of the family mores what I got by but if it was to make me better educated I'm afraid.

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It would depend I was basically an average student did you play baseball pick up the ball with the kids there in the park No we had so great what with typical American all small town all the Atlanta was the city was all just small time bringing up one that's true you know you know your neighbors you know sure you have a good amount of boys go now you know that they're going to stop they have their own little Boy Scout troop there if they did it with the and you know.

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A lot of Tech professor not a lot some of the Texas did live in is power. So that's not unusual that's what DMN Smith lived. And he was before your time he was before you know another legendary professor and that as it turned out your father of course was Bloodrage who was a beloved faculty member do you know how long he was attacked his entire.

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Life teaching life from 1928 or 9 to 19 the 74 I think is about 43 when there are so many people talk about him or. Have a lot run he never wanted to become anything else seems as very happy there so you kind of grew up with the tech notions I mean Ted was there for dad went to work every day and I was imbued with but it's pretty hard to dodge it did did he ever open his private like to students to students ever.

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Or did he ever take you to the campus Yeah you frequently go up there with him and there is parts of the campus and he was certainly very supportive of some very students he and I had felt both worked with. Yes students that. Needed help and they were willing to tutor or mentor as well as the master professors Yeah or get financial help but no one really space where a.

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Person that used to babysit me now is living in Calgary Canada and was Chinese descent and from Jamaica British West Indies and he got to Texas because I can't remember but he was that was in the forty's and he was non-color Kasia and so he had a lot of trouble with the racial issue there and my dad and one point gave him essentially gave them it was a loan supposedly but more pretty much gave him the $700.00 to help him get through the semester that would have been a lot of money at that time too Yeah well your father was very generous he was Are you telling me that a person of color was going to school there in the forty's Yeah but if they weren't black they could do it they permitted Chinese you know we did have a lot of wiggle room to Cuban you know a lot of Cubans that came to attack My goodness I give you a lot of them.

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But I think they list them as Hispanic you know. And I did say Chinese I think is early in 1920 S. You know we go back and look at the yearbook pictures there's never any issue of integration with any of them. Really then that means their hand was up and said no to the black African-American things that they didn't want to be and so there would be interesting to find that gentleman and see he said he was a person of color so be interesting to see if he is picture in your book or not so they will have to look in the back in the forty's and you know be very interesting so you were aware of that little exchange with your father and where this young man because he was your babysitter I'd heard about it years later from this gentleman after we had recontacted year as we did were out of town and so when we got back together it's not me but you don't know that that said Me Chen say that nature Chan chin chin speech and I believe and then SE Yeah me.

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And. So your folks think gaged him to come babysit for us they when I was in the town well they didn't do much when I was down yes they had groups I went to and I think I think they might have played bridge because a lot of people did at that time I don't remember playing bridge it was you know very we had dreams of movie theaters all over Atlanta could've gone the movies going to the box a lot of things to do in Atlanta so a good place to have a social life it's nice to think that they didn't have a social life as I would you describe your mother to me Genoa 9.

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Forgiving with forgiveness and how sure you know about in between she was in my honor and you know. She was very kind yeah how would you describe your father very much the same why is very patient very generous very kind forgiving and the one thing I hear him describe father is funny funny funny yes that's true I wish I never lost for words we kind of took that for granted just then the same unusual that I was growing up with he was the same way at home as he was at school then he had a little humor friendly sarcasm that he was touching us with Occasionally I think told to ask him people tell me he was more entertaining than Bob Hope 3 at last a good one liners and then he was very open minded very liberal quite so you're aware of that yeah I knew that he would sometimes talk.

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About you know integration that it was before long before we were talking about it as a school of he talked about in the classroom but you also brought really radical ideas about you know how the government should be run and who should be helped and some I remember some kids telling me that they thought he was socialistic you know that he had Social what any any liberal leaning would be interpreted that way that's true and that was pretty much describes Glenn.

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He was an activist when he was in college. His starring in say Van Woodward someone wrote a book out now and then Woodward and gave these passages in there I mean describing then Woodward describes the father as Glenn Rainey and the other a young radical at Emory University how I know your father and based on your had a cough he made some really strong statements against against the segregation against the lynching that was still going on and this is back in the mid to late twenty's when kind of danger here was pretty courageous I mean raising it was that the Klan was active you know when that time because I've seen photos of their in of their shops along Peachtree Street they had up on Peachtree before before St Phillip's or before the cathedral there it was a place I don't know maybe west where you go.

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One of those streets and they're right on the corner there was a Klan headquarters and they had. What you would call flagrant signs in the wind and so he really was at risk to put himself up and say that that was wrong and that continued for at least up into the fifty's and I'm beyond because he was always that way by he took a stand he was willing to stand as he got so busy with family and all of us I imagine for you it did destructive and then it did sort of fell out of what he had been doing but because by that time and aggression and coming on and eventually that was what he had been fighting for and it was accomplished you know and it's one to 2 he was the one chosen to you know at the end of the persuasive speech to the fact well it doesn't surprise me even though I had not heard of it that.

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I was there was an idea I know for a fact and we've seen pictures of the art of some of that you know whoever took pictures didn't document the scene but you know give us a feel for it was in the what we call today is a ballroom or the big room oratorio of the alumni house which was the course the old Y.M.C.A. where they brought all the faculty there and he addressed them to let them know that that was going to happen and they didn't have an option in this they needed it but he had to persuade them that they did have an option because of course they were tenured and could not be fired and in this this was not.

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Harrisons holes was not totally supported by the state government where we still had many segregation proponents at that time and so you know it was it was a risky thing to do granted they were offended by what happened at U.G.A. I mean they knew that was a real bad thing they have and to this day you know that was an infamous thing that happened a bad mark on the state.

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So they wanted tech to do well but they were going to lend a lot of support to the effort So really your dad had to have a single silver time that day he had to make them feel that it was to their best interests and for the greater good and I love that he chose that title if not now when I was sure he would have been persuasive because I would if I were you can tell him and he would have given a lot of thought to it you know that is yeah.

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I think of them as a legendary figure at Georgia Tech because I've heard you know. So many stories about him but for you it was Dad That's how bad he had it. Let's talk go back to your school days you were at Spring Street till 7th grade and then where had her granny Right over to him river anywhere you finished up over there not the time that you came up was it was still Boys High and that's everybody came out of the end of Boys' High right and I think in the early fifty's.

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One melded into the other so they put the 2 boys high in tech I gather make gravy right is the way that happened so when you were ready to start junior high you started it Henry Grady right because they didn't have Junior High senior high at the time it was just all on high school and I wasn't supposed to be some new educational way of going me it's so strange how some people went to medical school someone to juniors and now you're saying it was all one from 7th grade on that's a different way my impression was that that's the way it had then and then when it changed and changed into the middle school and high school but everyone it seems like every county every state has a different as we travel around and there was no there was no national standard for the way kids went to school it seemed to be from county by county you know or whatever so did great it was great it was a relatively new school at that time you know today it's thought of as a very.

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Very positive especially for the media is a magnet school for communication are central and at that time it was just a regular high school and what other high schools were that were there to compete with it in Atlanta at that time didn't really tanks in my memory Polish think about it from and I mean you would play football again till now out of north side.

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Russell was Russell still around Brown and he doesn't know sounds familiar I think that was over towards college park in that area there I think that's where Russell was but wasn't there one of my downtown. I'm not sure I thought it was might be BROWN I don't know what I'll do for who I've been to you know but I know I don't play football get to each other when you get into the 7th and 8th grades and choose you where you start getting involved in organized sports rather than pick up and you start recognizing women girls are going to be around you always went to school that had women in it and you always were.

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Never in a private school you're always in high school system. Did you get involved in organized forces greater than I was the only thing I got involved in was rifle team they had a wrestling team and did they have armed with the program there or they did did you join us and you had an interest in the military why do you know why now I don't but I did and pursued it anyway and what level could you go into and how to see what grade did you have to be and think it was sophomore so I don't I'm no I'm sorry you could probably start from the freshman year I think that was a high school thing you got through then doing your part of the 7th and 8th grade and then you could go into the tease me thinking maybe as a sophomore year that you did you stay in the program for the all the time you were at Grady and then there in one thing what was it like I went to see it at Tech in that you had a uniform and you had a day where you marched in drills and such how are you and did they have different branches of the L.T.C. there are what are they just are being are just an army OK So you were in the Army Air O.T.C. for all the 4 years of high school yeah and that was your 1st.

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Social Circle came to the kids that you were already with that was your room. Right and I would be totally missed if I didn't ask you about the kids on the stand so many people brought that up in our meeting last night to take your infamous letter to the editor reporting about your 1st kiss my question to you is if you've been in touch with Elisa says.

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Unfortunately no you don't know where she is search history she's dead she died just about 3 years it was last year when I went through this series of letters bouncing back and forth from me by email of course me to her son who had I had such a tangle I better start at the beginning I read a letter and attack not using from a gentleman who was remembering the time he spent with Professor folk and his family when he was attacked and he didn't mention Allison which was spelled B.L.O.B.'s No it wasn't the end it.

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Was made that mistake too I didn't spell well when I get that but he had a daughter named Alice and it was my same age so I. Contacted him after seeing that I wrote a letter and after seeing that and mentioned my relationship that happened to be my 1st kiss with Professor Phelps daughter because we were very close and we were young so that was the set up on a thing and the way it happened was at a football game when we were about 6 or 7 years old the parents had season tickets to the games and Allison had been to a game before when one parent would leave at half time and bring Allison back in and depart and she would have a seat at the pennant left one game I got to do that with and already being there and having been to games before I was very knowledgeable of what was going on but I was also struck by the crowd in the chair match and is a little kid that would be pretty awesome so tech made a touchdown at one point I didn't know it was a touchdown and I ask Alice and the crowd erupted and cheer and I asked her what had happened and she said that we meaning Tech we had scored a touchdown and we're ahead and I was so elated I grabbed her and kissed her.

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I was kind of spontaneous under this tree and it was right out there is right in the arm of the world to see a stand you know and she was terribly embarrassed jolts were. The most and I thought it was highly areas and I was indignant which was a little making fun of my aunt.

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And then the letter was written you heard from someone in the you yes her son apparently wrote the way we're exchanging these through the editor of the magazine because she didn't get out phone numbers or anything like that so we had gotten e-mails and he I believe contacted me and we actually exchanged some pictures I still had and pictures.

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From Allison from that time frame and thrown together He said he was and he sent me the last picture that he had of her Allison and her brother just shortly before she died she had cancer of some sort and she never heard and mother never or never got in touch and that was heartbreaking but I would really like to see her again after all those years but it just wasn't so.

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It would have been it would have been of one of those rainbow and it was to a sweet story and would have been and. It's always interesting to those of us who were at tech and have been there for a while about what happened to you know whatever happened to it to be have family where the family but we don't you know we don't keep in touch attack it's very hard to do that the magazine is one of the vehicles if you can get them to to put it in but I can't go to them and say hey I want to find out just doesn't really have any relatives left and let them write they won't write it in that way there has to be a way to do it so it is nice that you at least had some outreach from the folks family because he was also very popular he was a holy man his peer as the English teacher and they made a great team dad's.

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Friendly sarcasm that he would sort of cure people with and that sort of thing and had a focus was really sardonic he had his wonderful Donahue on there that I greatly enjoyed I had him for a class while I was so you got you know but I never did have my dad for class but I got his E.M.R. at home I guess you did.

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Your dad taught persuasion to public speaking yeah and I don't know folk taught those or not I can't remember there were a few other people in the English department that were infamous one of them was boot camp Bailey I don't know what his real name was but Mr Bailey was responsible for flunking people in English in that would have been the forty's when everyone was trying desperately to stay in school so they would turn into a facile material and he would brag about you know you don't do that composition right or you don't do this right you end up in boot camp so they start calling him boot camp as you well know there were nicknames for everybody I do not know when they came for your father did you ever hear one no I never heard any nickname for him although I know that if you front his chorus you had to work at it because he was that generation you know and he wanted them to succeed to succeed he did and you know I mean they all felt that way though they wanted to please him which is the way Bobby dad taught.

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It don't disappoint me you'll break my heart and rather than break your heart I'm not myself now and that's I think what the students did for your father they wanted to please so they rose above their skill level in order to see if they could get him to to really you know to write something that he would be pleased with or to respond appropriately but he wasn't harsh he wasn't cruel his own agenda and very patient to have the guy it would make the patients feel the raw material you've got to work with sometimes.

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I was pretty raw I was pretty raw Yes it really was by their own admission Well guys are always freaking dragged kicking and screaming into the class they just didn't want to take it and you know and general principles because they at that mentality I think especially in the twenty's and thirty's the forty's when the forty's it was a survival mode you know don't send the ark to the war I remember one story that he did tell about I had 2 football players that you know I found up in his class at one time and he greeted people at the door as I came in and I came in and one of them said serenity and the other one said all Professor Rainey so glad to get in your class you can't go on flunking freshman English forever but.

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Now you get that for everything you've got to get a pass on that one. Well it's a bigger deal it takes now you would be highly valued and checked out because you know language arts is an important thing well they came to find that out over time that engineers really didn't need to know how to write a paper or present themselves or get up and talk without tripping over their town so I wonder if you was ever involved with the.

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The group Toastmasters you know we had 2 very strong Toastmasters group over that period of time if you want as I'm not aware I never could easily have met you I never heard anything about him being associated with that and yet somehow I would think he would have been maybe faculty advisors something like that that that just occurred to me no I never looked at the records to see if I can find anything anyway if you're in high school you're going to see you've got your own little niche of the world where you're quite happy.

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And you said you weren't that academically. Aggressive you just got by what I find a way to put it. I have a feeling that you accepted whatever you got it you did knock yourself out and I'm afraid that's true I don't know much more attracted to pick up football games and study and I was you had you enjoyed you had a good time while your high school was a given in your family that all of your children would go to college.

[00:40:59]
I think yes would be the answer but it was not something that we ever thought about going to discuss it at the table you know it was like we were just going to do it actually I remember when I was 17 I think and I hadn't really thought much about college and my dad was he was never a pushy or finger point or anything like that any just kind of casually asked me one day Well where have you thought about going to college and he had that tone in his voice was not harsh but it just meant it's time for you to start thinking about going to college and I never occurred to me to go to anywhere except tech growing up on a campus and I had a little football game I painted and the players the colors of for tack at the time and it was just like I said I was imbued with tech and it never seemed like anything else to do so I just was able to get in and stayed there isn't the only school you'd like to.

[00:42:05]
I'm not sure you know that another the application is on my lease and your time with you when you were there what I do 5655 if you find OK you go in and you say 5 probably by the you know one or are you do you could you carry the lottery and find with your transcript and you might have taken this 80 some did some didn't I'm not sure the S.A.T. even existed and it did and it did in some different levels and it wasn't required but some people if I took it and you don't remember it going I mean you just it was like very easy to get in the school it was very hard to stay what you got it but it was clear easy to get in very truth pretty much anybody who won the state could go in the.

[00:42:51]
Did some of your friends from Grady go with you so you were not there by yourself no. Did you did you not have any yearning to go far away suppose you had said well then I decided I'm going to go to Ohio technology School of Technology or I'm going to go to Yale he wouldn't you think you would have supported you where you know what you know now if you said you want to go to Emory would he have supported that I'm sure you wouldn't it would cost him a lot of money but he could do would have done it.

[00:43:25]
I think so he would although he was very very frugal so maybe he would have tried to talk me out again and then going somewhere else but if he didn't turn him out of going to chat for any reason I don't know so he was OK with me doing yeah I was happy to do it.

[00:43:41]
When you got accepted you I don't know what they did in those days today they send you a letter that says you know your eyes yellow jacket or Welcome to the ramming record something was probably just you know you got acceptance letter for you it sounds like it was just another day in the life of an it's trying to come fall so you just hustled yourself off how did you get to school did you could he live in every park at that time and drive over to the streetcar is a little bit farther walk if possible but let me get my dates lined up again I think the time for when I started we were living on campus so I went to work to classes in a faculty apartment one of the dome I had they left.

[00:44:26]
Probably for the the space we were living in a 2 bedroom cottage a brick drive and when my other siblings began to come along it was rather pretty cramped and he was in fact we lived for a while in the faculty apartment. And the name I can't remember the Dhamma Tory but it was on the corner of North Avenue in tech would Brown dormitory that's brown and that was the one that was right across the little alley leading back to the dining hall and the folks lived on the other side of that alley and so that's how Allison and I were childhood chums was the apartment bigger than your home now I'm regressing to where well I guess it must've been because yeah that's right we moved from do you ever dry your tears we're renting an Avery or they done a very I don't know you don't even know because you would wonder why they would be the House to come live on the campus probably money I think they living in the faculty apartment you probably didn't have to pay maybe not because right because he would serve as the dormitory right my trainer who is a free free we would have moved all of the children were born many times you know me or me you know when you did well and we 1st went to the campus in 46 and in 49 we changed Ahmed Tori's moved down to the one on the corner of 3rd Street just woods and she lived in Ansley the whole time not the whole time we were there 1st and then had on campus for a while about 10 years I think and then back as a little while and well let's talk about what it was like to live on campus when you were in grade school well it was interesting because I got transformed from an early park in this open free environment all of which you know I get about how wonderful it was all because I did well I think you're going to wait for me there is some yanked out from under my window I know you're on the campus and there weren't very many.

[00:46:39]
Kids there my age there probably half a dozen would be the the maximum that I can off and think most of which I knew in school because they went to Spring Street but. And the bus came and tried to run a lot of their attack off like I rode my bike or you might wager like a strangling or injury you know at that time I 45 I 7075 was just being built and there were dredges of concrete that made it easier and stretches of dirt no member riding No That way one really that far I don't think but I never thought of it is being far worse you were living in the dormitory than there were kids around all the time I mean the dormitory apartment is right part of the dorm so I might have run another building right now and showers with high place.

[00:47:33]
Not very quiet so it wasn't and then even for mother she had to put up with a lot and she yes certainly did yeah she brought up a lot it wasn't easy to be a faculty wife and your father was there through different administrations too I mean they were they lived there an initially it was Britain and then you know from Britain the longest haul until family or came in and then you got there in 55 in September 55 if that was an auspicious year in that house was the year of the Sugar Bowl rebellion I remember you know one of the few times in the history of the institution that the kids absolutely staged a revolt and were you part of.

[00:48:19]
The end no and well I had gone to bed and then the problem we were having at that time was down on the corner of 3rd Street and tech or drive which was maybe grand or majority is a clinic and we thought it was kind of funny because my dad's name was going on and you were leaving we went to check that he had they had named it after him about was not the case I was and I'm gone just gone to bed and I was about drifting off to sleep and I heard this strange noise from outside that.

[00:48:52]
I just couldn't define it it seemed sort of like a rushing wind or something to that effect and I opened the blinds and looked down and so this theory of student this young man flowing 3rd straight I thought I was dreaming so I went back to sleep and I missed the whole thing I think you know my worry but I did go to the Sugar Bowl Yeah well after that that the right was the one for the sure way to get to go OK yeah that the chant was Sugar Bowl Sugar Sugar Well I remember Shirley newborn Charlie Clements you worked who was there she was one of the 1st 2 women to graduate and she said she heard that up and her face she was living over on the street and she called up her her boyfriend later I was there and and said you know.

[00:49:43]
The whole campus of the immigrant boys and they were I mean it was pretty thrilling I have offered many many stories about it and I know that they all swarmed up in you slept through the whole thing. You really you kind of thought you were dreaming I mean I could see where that would be if you just beat out the ones so your father was not involved with that at all I'm sure you helped calm some of the feelings the aroud Griffin reporting grief and of course he was determined he was going to get all the culprits and get them out of school but nobody was out of school for very long and the few that they did find and then there went to bat for them and the Sugar Bowl indeed was granted and then 4 of them we're up and died in January he was gone so we had another change your father then we had to go work with acting and then.

[00:50:38]
Came in after that you know for not one where myself but Harrison came in so your father worked under Harrison and then he laughed and we had acting and Hansen came and Hansen laughed so your father was there to all of those changes in the administration and they're very difficult on faculty he was there until Pettitte came in because at a Kenyan and and you're acting in 707273 your dad retired 74 I think it'll you know I think that was right on the days but that's now mentioning that student revolt you said he wanted involved in it and he wasn't but it would not have surprised me had he been leading it.

[00:51:18]
Up you don't know really where he was. I remember so many fun stories I mean it was a very exciting thing to happen and that's the thing that is interesting is that many of the in retrospect looking at the history of it and he is a black students that you know vengefully came into school.

[00:51:38]
Actually thought that was the issue with segregation was that you know we were that the team was looking for support from the student body because they didn't mind if there was a black player they they didn't mind but not for the right reasons they didn't mind does it want their ballgame taken away I mean what they were very candid about that you can do in the what they don't take away a ball game where you buy this crazy in that was a do it on that and that's why they were yelling Sugarbush is a motorable you know don't take it away from us so interesting time in Texas history very exciting time when you slept through it.

[00:52:15]
Anyways that it continued to be a tumultuous time because of family or step I mean that's that is very hard on a student body to lose you know the president do you remember that only vaguely that. That happened the change was taking place and it had stirred the pot obviously as it would but that's about all just friends and retailers I mean you got into school like we said it was easy to get in what did you find out and you knew how hard it was going to be enough people had told you surely we've certainly heard it that's just.

[00:52:54]
Where you probably didn't know how hard and hard right now but you can tell if you remember if you had an orientation I'm sure most of us did you go up to decode or go to hard rock or I can't go camp there were different Why don't you know that they didn't you don't remember you remember if you had done that and I think if you might not your parents might not have paid for you to do it because it would have cost extra they might not have because your dad would have pretty wild.

[00:53:23]
But able to tell you everything that was going on but you don't remember the infamous look to your life and look to your right now with one of you will be only one of you will be here with the well because it was a direct attritional is it.

[00:53:36]
So you were there right you know how hard did you work then you found out you had to work hard. And we did did you declare engineering right now yeah I did when for aeronautical engineering and I think on the 1st exam I got the lowest grade in the class so I began to doubt whether or not I was going to be able to finish an aeronautical engineering and I didn't because halfway through I change from Navy on our O.T.C. to Air Force So initially when you inroad you you joined up with the Navy air ots you know and you had been Army already R.G.C. a high school so you try the Navy out and you stay with it maybe for 2 years but you know 2 years I think it's a little bit you bring up for the 2nd 2 years of O.T.C. You know I went to them Air Force the reason being that I wanted to get married and the Navy did not permit married students in their program only you know they have it's very interesting I transferred to the Air Force which did permit students to be married in their program so you went to the Air Force because you had a passion passion for flying did you know I did but that's why I went to the Navy too because I was we would be a Navy fire whatnot plan was to go to tag get an education get into the military and we had a mandatory 2 year service requirement anyway at that time which is the law and use the Air Force or Originally the Navy and then an Air Force to serve my time that I needed to serve and get them to teach me how to fly and then become a commercial pilot so you didn't think about flying it over from about 12 years old and you emerged only commercially the 1st flight I was on was a.

[00:55:29]
I think an Eastern Airlines D.C. 3 from Atlanta to Columbia I was going over to visit my grandmother and they let you fly it was probably the 1st trip I ever took by myself and when the plane left the ground and the ground started fading away and everything became smaller and smaller the light went off in my head and I said this is it I'm going to do this you know and I really want is so cool we have and how will that little bit you get be that Rizzo clearly Well that was kind of the 1st exam in aeronautical engineering it was another.

[00:56:04]
We may be I don't need the air I'm not a girl it turns out I did turns out you did it transferred to ceramics I'm glad I did and it turned out that served you just as well as a you would certainly did and why so many in January we did but did you know about ceramics nothing well funded you know well my dad knew Les Mitchell who was head of the ceramic department and I think he talked to him about my situation and I was beginning to struggle a little bit Thankfully when I had calculus so ceramics had just an easier curriculum in that respect it didn't have that heavy emphasis on my ass though it had physical chemistry which I found out was just as just about the same but it just got me into a different environment and I got married about that time and that may have been help because it kept me from going out and playing pick up football games and staying home and study so it probably was a combination of that but it seemed attractive to me like you would back at school was that you're into your 1st year after the sophomore year end of your 2nd year you know OK so we're now we've gone from $55.00.

[00:57:33]
57 you've got your entity 758 and actually the symbol of 58. You were already half way through school when you changed majors you have to go a little longer then when you change major later and well considering the courses I funked I was sort of the end. Half way through in one respect in time I was probably more than halfway through but I know I spent 5 years there a little different I mean that's the norm now 5 years without one can anything so do you actually feel some classes Yeah he says when Frank and Jack yeah that happened how would that feel if your dad's on faculty you come home like at 5 make it with and are standing Yeah he well he knew how hard tack was to get some of them but he never suggested I go anywhere else I think he was helpful in getting the end of ceramic engineering because he was well known about campus and I suspect that that had a lot to do with my getting.

[00:58:44]
By In some classes and getting the transfer that I got getting into the Air Force are O.T.C. from the Navy and that sort of it always helps to know some certainly does you were there and this is the most auspicious time being that not only we have a big rebellion we have 1st women graduates you probably never even saw a women when you were there and if masses I don't I can't imagine that there would have been any women aeronautical engineering and you stuck with that for a few quarters to NEW YEAR OF ALL THE 1st basically 1st couple of years of it did you not know how to study was that that's one that's probably a really good observation of the survey you didn't know how to study you had to learn the very poor do you think the fact that you lived.

[00:59:33]
When you lived off campus just some of the time other times you lived on campus and I think sometimes commuters have a harder time too because more distractions at home than there would be say in a library or in a dorm room if you're by yourself I think living at home probably put a lot of distractions on me that would have been better if I had gone to dormitory embodies for you just a lot of people knew purposefully went out of the town they grew up in and to be away from the home environment right that's why I asked you Did you apply anywhere else because usually that's what you know young men like I get manic here an arty way to get out and one of the reasons they don't if they stay on the campus so that's like going away you know it's just the same as not.

[01:00:20]
Well let's go to some of the characters that you would have known at the campus at that George Griffin he certainly had to know who you were. Don't know I don't know but I knew he was well be you your father son so he would have known it was because he kept an eye on everything that was going on you knew everything there were and I don't think any secrets from George I doubt it he was everywhere at one time he kept aside and everybody who was just the way it was did you stand good terms with him did he ever have to reprimand you you know I was really not a.

[01:00:56]
Trouble No no I was not a troublemaker and you didn't join the fraternity So you weren't into all those escapades you weren't a party your guy you wanted to wasn't what party you're no you're not coming on tonight and I've already had to bail you out of jail every morning or something like that poor George had quite a life you know with all those kids that read many accounts because there were a lot of paralysis you know people who just kind of one of the probably died did you have an opportunity to get to know him in any way you know his daughter because we went to school together and then you know not only went to Spring Street school with her.

[01:01:32]
But that's about as close to him I think as I ever got I don't believe I ever met him actually and I had an occasion to meet him I've read or heard I guess about the My dad's relationship with him and which parent was very good and. My God I understood what the the tax rule was that students studied and just because they were football players they didn't get a free ride and dad supported that have a way and worked with saving but I think that initially for I think people's employed the same type of psychology with the kids you know don't let me down I'm really I'm sticking myself out for you don't let me down I know I've heard football players say they they would rather do anything and have died disapprove or look down on them it was just such a shameful thing to happen and I think your father fired people the same way he did name and his disapproval I and why he never used corporal punishment on us and I feared his disapproval be terrific and then when I heard his feelings Right exactly so to fail miserably was to fail him miserably so a lot of pressure you know it's a lot of pressure for a kid but it's also very motivating and maybe you rose above yourself sometimes just for that approval.

[01:02:59]
Not to get the disapproval. Did any professors there in any of the classes sciences and math to any of them mentor you at all or act like big even cared you know I don't know Course I got some tutoring that paid for. A lot of the time and the professors.

[01:03:23]
Well I think Les natural did I think we came very very much he. Was concerned about his students and came across in that manner and the chemistry professors give you a nod. I'm not thank you great big here because you know Cantor Milan to be able report the facts when he is being totally cold hearted you know never even remotely interested with whether you when Henry went behind you didn't feel that I would probably come closer to that than feeling I wanted yeah just from bad blood there wasn't a lot of warm fuzzy going on but the time you got there D.M. Smith had left you didn't you had no damages and Uncle Jaime and I left and I think he died in 51 so that was before your time because they were all characters that were around for a long time so you got through the 1st 2 years and then you married and where did you live then after you were married with the 1st place we lived well as over on Lafayette drive which is in and sleep park.

[01:04:32]
Does Maddox park I believe another one of the little pond so you lived off campus shooting from just 2 married housing or if you know that and you would have commute back and forth you know which is which to the Air Force are O.T.C. did you make known that you wanted pilots training that you did and did they start using then.

[01:04:54]
No they didn't have a flying program and you know you're in the R T C But we did on the campus in the air was I. Did you not know I'd be doing that and I don't even think I was aware of it I was so absorbed kind of in my own little world being at home because a lot of people learned how to fly a Georgia Tech when you know Jack my job an amazing number of women because apparently that wasn't really available to them anywhere else if you didn't think about just joining the Air Force learn how to fire join the Navy we would just do that but there were a lot of that wanted to fly and the only jacket find it to this day was a very good device for that it started in 1946 I believe so it was definitely well established when you were there just went right over your head you know it was around there was an awful lot there went right after and just not have much so if you were going through the going to the end of the time you were going to be there you know you were going to get out you said which is summer of 60 was it that you finally got whether it was winter for yeah in December of 1960 so not the spring and not the summer but the winter.

[01:06:06]
What was your plan what were you going to do going to be there for now you were already enlisted Now you went out of the R.T.C. probably got a commission when I graduated I graduated with a commission for me to say and do the Air Force where was the graduation held.

[01:06:22]
Fox Theater I believe and did you go yeah but was it in the following spring or did they have one in the fall and winter session for you know it was then that it was right down to there was a period of time where you know when they change from that where there was only one a year that it changed every gram and I'm not sure when that was I'm still trying to determine that so you did graduate in December of 1960 right and went into the Air Force I got delayed 6 months but went in in June of 61 what do you do then 6 months work with the state highway department then tell you to get a job right away well I had connection again my wife's father knew someone in the highway department which is that we should work doing reading plat.

[01:07:10]
Big city yaps and making those traffic survey of for but I'm not sure what they were doing the least it would be in fully employed by you or your brain a few bucks and then you time you were called up for the Air Force where we use station where would they send you and that would often the idea for a space spent my entire career there did you really you know you went down there and stayed there learned how to find went back as an instructor pilot there as an instructor pilot for the next 4 years of my commitment and then that's why you didn't use anywhere else because they need you right there when it was going on and to you could have been said you were good you must've been a natural pilot I don't know if it was natural the 1st time I flew was in the Air Force and I got by your wings you got your wings because you were good because everybody did not talk to people that lost out or were considered abrogate or materials and as pilots.

[01:08:13]
There was a real refining process for all of that that's true so if you got accepted for that and then were expected to be a teacher you most of them pretty good at it. You were in a panic guy you were real. Under most situations so when you moved out you move down to Moody did you move your family or your wife down there with you so you know that's where you lived for 5 years so for you it was a job you know it was just like any other job right to work and you spent your time training after you learned yourself trainee other people how to fly right seems like a really not so good thing to do I mean everybody's not good we already said there are people who don't know how to fly and never will did you have some harrowing experiences.

[01:09:03]
Couple now and then but you know to me it was fun I couldn't believe I was getting paid really that was you really love taking off and landing that lead times to me it sounds like take me out beat me with a stick you know not at all you have to where did you get trained and find what kind of planes refine the problem at the time when I went in and the reason I got delayed from going in was because the Air Force was transitioning from civilian instructors which had been in effect since before World War 2 to Air Force instructors for the pilot training program they also were changing from a propeller driven.

[01:09:48]
Basic trainer to a jet. Cessna T. $37.00 you know small twin jet there after Benteke airplane so the students started and their previous one had started in propeller airplane and then gone well we enter into the team $37.00 that's the 1st airplane I ever flew and I trained in that and then in the T. 33 which was in the program at the time.

[01:10:17]
The T. 38 was just coming into the Air Force at that time but had not that point gotten to Moody came back to. Moody after I went through survival training and instructor pilot training that sort of thing that we had to do. To. Get into the T. $37.00 again I instructed in that for a year or thereabouts and then move to got the T. $38.00 and I was selected to be one of the instructor pilots in the 38 which time you know I knew new plane tricks and then to do no taught it to everybody else when you got towards the end of your 1st 5 you're listening did you think that that's all you really really do was 5 years and you were going to retire and I was in my plan it what were you going to do it was your big plan to go to airlines but you wanted to be a commercial Well I want to be a pilot and I wasn't real sure that Air Force career was what I wanted so I decided that I would get out into the commercial business and then just purely by chance and I saw an ad in the Air Force Times I think it was that they were hiring pilots J.S.C. in S.C. at the time in Houston went down and interviewed and they hired me on it and we need to say and I see it's a manned space flight center piece like the precursor of what we know today is just as the sun and the paper for that for the job I think so when they were hiring pilots you know it was the window of about 3 months that they had advertised a net and the government just never advertised for pilots but they had just started up the center down there in the find the training of the astronauts needed more people to come in and serve as instructor pilots are other kind of pilots cooperate pilots to some extent and other programs that they were getting in Earth Resources programs and.

[01:12:20]
There is aspects of training in science lot of stuff going on so they needed pilots and I guess right after I got on that word began to spread and they did need to advertise anymore maybe that was all the money they had. But it was all about the timing in your case just happened to fall into this why did you ever lived in Houston had you ever been accused and never had it was kind of a risky thing you were going to apply for the job by phone by me you know I flew out for movie and flew commercial to interview and got the job at the job so this announce to your family that you were movie and bag and baggage to Euston to actually be a pilot for that program and what were your responsibilities there are a lot of them.

[01:13:16]
It's hard to describe to someone who isn't a pilot and wasn't in the program but just a mainly a lot of different airplanes doing different things they check you out on each kind of different and my you know I was flying at the time. I think 7 or 8 different kinds of airplanes one of which is with the National Guard which I mentioned I got in after the Air Force did you join the National Guard in Houston Yeah OK just to keep your hand in what was that what was your motivation and you know now is the idea to stay with an aspect of the military and fly another airplane good for money or not it looks like you know that you get paid for it and it's like the weekend warrior thing with the National Guard you backed off.

[01:14:04]
And you actually stay with them for 3 years I think we need. 3 And meanwhile they would have you as a pilot now we check bigger aircraft different size aircraft but you were actually a pilot who was like a chauffeur you were taking the I.P.S. different people from one space to another space right manager is the center director of the free probably footing around somewhere and you want to make it a roster you would give for the schedule and you did that of the daily basis well it was a pretty regular schedule we had this pool of pilots who did all those jobs is qualified to do any one of the men who I was of have or with available at a particular time with a certain job so you've got a schedule there's a new schedule me Raney of here does this on this day does that mean that it was a very fluid schedule any put it that way and the days that you were not flying somewhere would you have other responsibilities.

[01:15:03]
Yeah mostly just paperwork type stuff and proficiency reading material for the airplanes you're in constantly on your toes about that and some point in time you got chosen to actually instruct Astra. Well I started right away that gets carried. OK And so I part of that was one of them asked that should you explain to me what you were required to do in the training we gave the astronaut their annual check flights in the airplane they're required to take any excuse me visual check and an instrument check each year and we would do better if new people accuse me of.

[01:15:57]
New astronauts came into the program we would check them out in the airplane we even got a group of army people who came in who had not flown before actually some civilians too and we checked them out gave them their initial check out in the airplane so they started flying the airplane and initially when they 1st came to NASA there really were a lot of people coming to you so is it because they were building the program.

[01:16:28]
But now let's talk about how you specifically trained them for a landing that needed and they had to me because that's a very interesting role it was a fun part of it is to say the least and then they took a Gulfstream 2 which is a twin engine corporate airplane jet powered stripped out all the passenger seats and put the big computer in the back because that was days before minuter was a sion had arrived and they had a huge metal case back there that was the computer and it ran up to the cockpit the left side of which they had made a exact copy of a shuttle.

[01:17:11]
Cockpit including the rotating hand controller that the astronauts used to control the shuttle the right side of the cockpit with an airplane cockpit instructor pilot sat in the right seat in the astronaut in the left and we would find from some location frequently at White Sands New Mexico there's a range out there meaning a restricted space to keep other airplanes away or down it Cape Canaveral they had on an area there too and we would fly up to an altitude of initially 35000 feet put the airplane and thing elation mode in the astronaut would fly it from that point on a big circle down to the runway.

[01:17:56]
The computer would recognize when the airplane we were in was in the exact I hide it for the astronaut of the shuttle when it touched down and would get a green touch down light it came on and the instructor pilot would take it over and fly back up do another profiling we just fly these series of approaches to the same runway he got about a dozen of those in and the idea with you made them feel very familiar with the process and the feeling of it it simulated the whole experience and I ran Included the C.R.T.'s with the little cursors that they had to fly in to make the Shuttle do what it was supposed to do and it was then in the air environment so that they could actually feel stuff that they couldn't feel in the simulator they had some good simulators But even even family didn't like the real thing and you you mentioned you would go to a certain height I mean thousands of feet a nationally 3536000 in the subsequent profiles in that particular period we would just go up to about 20000 and start exactly opposite the touchdown point the 1st one we could start from a little earlier in the descent circle that the shuttle makes when it comes to land how long would it take someone to become.

[01:19:23]
Comfortable with doing it how much training really is required for just that landing skill. They had a minimum number of approaches that they had so that it's Rex's doing it all their over and I've forgotten what their number was but it was a pretty big number that nothing is chancy about this is they really really thoroughly thoroughly very much and you have to work with all the action that anybody coming through was going to that was going to be.

[01:19:56]
Now landing to the International Space Station landing on the moon landing where what was the landing cessation any at all the same when I was always going to be K S A are they hoped it would be OK I think for that one it Cape Canaveral that was always the hope for a landing site when a shuttle let up but the alternate sites were White Sands New Mexico which had a long long lake bed that they could land on or Edwards Air Force Base was the other place for a leg would there be differences between those locations is civil and these you know men out there and the way they I think in landing on the moon with it's believed landing the shuttle back they get blasted out shuttle has to come back yes to come back.

[01:20:49]
You know it's just on and one of my ass here it's also mind boggling like I'm like most of the general public I still think it's the most exciting thing ever I can't believe how glassy the public has gotten about space travel and space launch there and it's become routine and I've been on the 3rd and 4th page and sometimes you have to go looking or you can even find Did they get back safely or did they get where they're going but I still am I keeping him a shopper and I still think it boggles my mind that they can you do something like I was does need to it does yeah well that year I guess Werner sonne that.

[01:21:27]
Most people go but so what it's routine and I think anybody who's been in the pro. Feels that way that it's not routine there's too many things that could go wrong when you're part of history you know this is really a one of them then OK history making episodes epochs errors whatever you want to call it in the human race and a big part of it was really throwing is throwing is just so in being able to interview the asked some of the astronaut you know that had the experience of what was it like to me it was just it's mind boggling and I could never think that that was a routine thing I just could never think that and I don't think this could be the end of it of the whole era No well that won't be I we're not on the very precipice of just doing discovery and thinking today there was a thing on the news this morning on The Today Show about somebody.

[01:22:22]
Just propelling themselves just the single person doing something you know I heard it had this I didn't hear enough of it to know what it is but they're talking about you know space shuttles as intertainment you know for externally wealthy people and the more it happens you know the less expensive it will become and the more capable open.

[01:22:43]
It already is to some people you know we hear every once in a while some famous person pay millions of dollars this go you know but it's all very exciting in there you were a part of it did you get to meet some of the well known astronaut Sarno the ones you were training so it's a matter of fact it was just a for you it could be Richard truly Or it could be.

[01:23:07]
Any one of the ones that I flew with the Certainly did you know big slate and I'll shepherd them walk Johnny on down the aisle so you were you were a tech bread sign with Chick bread but you were crazy man that is so cool how about the Western.

[01:23:27]
I was out before well not before they got any because Sally Ride was there but I never got to meet them just by Didn't you know never train with Jake that I didn't even know I'm chained to a triangle with Judy Resnick they wanted it was lost one of the ones that was lost on the Challenger it was a probably what happened when I was down at the Cape I saw it happen not you visually saw it you're right I'm not one of the funniest times in my wow I can't even imagine why I know what it felt like you know to be part of the public but to be part of the actual whole aberration what in the whole world is.

[01:24:12]
You know why because I had trained astronauts in the simulator for that part of the asset for them the solid rocket boosters and burning in the main engines are burning and I knew what it was supposed to do and what it was not supposed to do and when I.

[01:24:33]
Was in a flight planning on down there were some pilots from one of the other centers and starting to fill out a flight plan and I saw the shuttle start up going up we could see out the window or the land launch site was about 5 miles away but you could see it going up on its beautiful plans until I turned back and started filling out my flight plan and one of these other pilots says it's supposed to do that and I looked back and I saw the plumes separating and I heart just you knew that I couldn't even that was non-survival and it just it was horrible.

[01:25:15]
Well that you know I was there for that you know lose part of your family you know I had worked with everyone on board I think except for Christa McAuliffe And I know I had met her in just a few days before so I knew thank everybody on board except the Canadian The thing and pretty shocking to the whole program the whole world one of those you know were you when I think Jan would you have been there for the earlier crisis was that was before your time the burning down the pad that happened 3 weeks after I heard on so you were there and wow that's that was really scary too we don't talk about that is much but you were there for the triumphs to you know the you know I wanted.

[01:26:05]
It's so exciting to either go to Johnson or go to Redstone because we've been to I've been to the Redstone Arsenal. To interview astronaut business with the space center on the international space and I was monitored from Wasn't that myself was it's just mind boggling to think you know how far away they were and they're right there you know communicating back and forth so let a wonderful industry you've got associated with that strength and it was based not on your education but ceramics didn't help you get in there it was based on your interest in being a pilot actually was the engineering degree was the God of the job as I had to have science or what would it have mattered if you were a ceramic engineer or some other engineer.

[01:26:53]
To be hired on you know just having an engineer so you could have been done is real engineering still that would've been an impediment but having an engineering degree from Georgia Tech sure doesn't hurt doesn't hurt at all I've yet to find anyone be whole home about that when they get out the real world it really does carry a lot more weight than we realize when you're right that's very true I found out since and how much and it was worth all the sweat you know it is worth all the sweat and seem like it's going to be but it is worth sweating.

[01:27:28]
If you had practice the ceramic engineering you still could have been involved with the space program the colleges because that is it doesn't mean you make ashtrays when you're a ceramic it should air so you can use that doesn't mean that's what you do and that I know that there have been ceramic engineers of the with the shuttle tiles.

[01:27:50]
You know that try the science the shop and even the ceramics are vast with some of the technology you know today I don't know if it was back when you were their sixties but. They use ceramic conductors and things of that sort and them yes but it's so funny because generally speaking his from him a kitchen area you know there's that look today we don't even have a separate ceramics enjoying an apartment in the military or braided and I don't know even which school is it material systems now that's part of the material I thought it was probably into material systems engineering so but no regrets on that score for you.

[01:28:31]
Do you remember your father having any pleasure in you right away I'm sure he did but the say anything or make you feel that he really was glad you stuck with it I know you know I'm new here proving he didn't turn cargoes sounded but he did say finally got out of the way that he was always very quiet and approving you know use approving of just about everything and I knew he was very proud of and they have for having done that your mom to.

[01:29:01]
Their Grandma to your room here long enough for you to know. My grandfather did and then we were speaking of my maternal grandparents and he died in 1998 when you were named after yes so he was from Germany originally or is mainly in families and I'm not sure how far back Well actually it was a long time ago I think his.

[01:29:29]
Mind his lineage went back to 1617 in this country yeah all my work you know that's right 1st quantum I came over and it's very early then yeah not the Mayflower and something pretty close to it but I guess they maintained the German influence in the family because he certainly had a German name that is certainly a German name you're right Mary much so let's move on now to the fact that you had a very successful career but there are some other things that you've done that have been very interesting for once the writing you're a gifted writer anyone who reads your letters to the editor know I have your gift of rank and I ask you what you did for hobbies that you wrote that you met more than write letters to the editor did you write or how it treats happened in quite a while but I used to do you write fiction you know and you write mysteries which are fiction I'm assuming you don't want to commit your crimes that you're doing you know as fiction.

[01:30:34]
But Futurists and we didn't even talk about the fact that you got 2nd degree when you were induced by stress and let's go back to that what prompted you to go back to school I was just interested in doing it and actually it's kind of funny way of Bent's fall together sometime but one of the other pilots you knew I was interested in writing showed me and I had and one of the local papers down there that about a writing course at the University of Houston in Clear Lake.

[01:31:06]
So I went over to investigate that and somehow I don't know if it was part of that school the degree that I told you about the studies of the future which everybody kind of raises an eyebrow What is that it was an experimental program and I don't even know if it's still there that look towards the future trying to identify significant waypoints that might lead humanity in one direction or another but in any case I got into that program whether or not it was an offshoot of the writing or just because I happened to be there and see it I can't remember but to graduate I had to do a thesis project and the project was to write a novel which I did and if you like an alarmist outline Well it was pretty interesting but it has there's only so many topics.

[01:32:05]
I chose to write about a colony on Mars. Thank you. Very much science fiction and that was part of the future. Yeah I used to devour it when I did teens did you know did you know but George. I mean it's very familiar in the English department. Which is the also one of the astronomical collections fiction.

[01:32:36]
She left up to Georgia Tech really so we have one of the world's largest collections of disarming them a bit on the other hand you know it's it's kind of a nifty part George to try this marvelous collection I just wondered you know because there's something about science fiction in N.T.T. it goes together sort of true you know and so if you enjoy writing Yeah very much I've been writing since I was about 12 years old just on and off and I've taken creative writing courses gone to counseling could have very nicely been had a living as a writer or maybe as an academic maybe following your own but well I tell you when you're right don't ever quit your day job if you found out that it's a retiring job for United a job you were there they tell you support your family and they're right you know they're going to Chandra did your father and I enjoy your writing and you share that with him yeah I did the poetry he did enjoy it although my board tree is anything but classical and he said one time that the problem with my poor tree was that you could understand.

[01:33:45]
I'd like to think I'm the best and so is a considerable product to be looked at over and over again you actually know which is probably in their hero a very serious Fortran got published in The New York Times when this when this was back when he was in college and I didn't know and I didn't either Internet something else for the look it was not stand anything as are you obliged.

[01:34:08]
Quite extraordinary 2nd career I would say in process not not done yet you know but you for the last you've been retired now for a good long time 21 years later mean you've done some really good rugby those things you did and I want to touch you about that youth group.

[01:34:27]
You brought you were a coach you took on that father role to kids young people to coach them in baseball well. Well when I got divorced in 71 I believe I wanted to spend more time with my kids I hated to be separated from the kids in a way to do that was to coach them in baseball so I got involved in a league there that was called all play baseball that had the unique concept that all players got to play in every game Ergo the name.

[01:35:03]
The problem was the guy that originated it was just terribly disorganized he would have one team with 25 players on it and the other with 9 players on it was horrible so I and some other people one of whom was dotty do Charlie do the astronauts wife Charlie also coached and he coached my younger son you know on a team that Charlie had but there were several of us about half a dozen of us I think got together and said this is too good of an idea to not promote at that time Little League was being Little League only the good players leaving with good players only got to be on the team and where our concept was it will take anybody who comes in and they're required to play a minimum of 2 innings in every game and we had free substitution it's not like real baseball player comes out you can't go by hand again and we had a lot of restrictions and rules to protect the kids and it caught on as an aside one of the other reasons why we took it over was because a guy who it originated with embezzling fun.

[01:36:16]
He pictured him self is becoming this type a football mogul and but yeah but it took off and was just really very rewarding for me I got to do the coaching to be with my boys and that was in the Houston area down in the Clear Lake area east of Houston.

[01:36:37]
Start. Who has 8 kids and is probably well after the fact probably cancer big like the fame she has 8 children did I did you have to go to school did you become Yes she went to an AM where she met her husband in Texas in Texas Tech reading and writing and graduated with a very high point average I think 3.2 something like that in biology and then went out to West Texas do you have a job and to be near the gentleman she had fallen in love with when she was in college and they wound up getting married and having kids 8 children is now on the children today's age just kind of goes back a 100 years we are trying to get labor for the far right but she's on her hand so she homeschools to really she homeschool other beaches.

[01:37:34]
I'm back and she's still in Texas you know it's OK you don't get to see them very often you know we have to go back to them and 2nd lawyer Lloyd and he's with he's an independent insurance adjuster and I often have to lively girls that are now of college age enter all of her doing that and where do you go to school or do yours you know he started the Texas A and him and did my younger son go talk about in a moment when they discovered that they were required to study in order to stay there the exact right or did they go elsewhere they're going to hear this you know I don't know if you said OK so where did I go where when he transferred to what was then called southwestern Texas University and I think is now.

[01:38:23]
Tags of the universe something about I can't remember the names like they were just because they changed the name and changed to something else but he. Went there and enjoyable stay there met his wife there and got into the insurance business and made quite a success of him self and he's done quite well then and that brings us to JR.

[01:38:48]
Jr who now has 3 children they thought they were only going to have 2 children but discovered recently that they were going to have 3 so the newest may be has arrived and they are now 13 and 9 and 3 months or thereabouts so he went to school started did anyone went to the University of Houston and graduated.

[01:39:15]
From that and a degree and so on one of the chemistries that I have to always ask him about Guy never remembers when he tells me all I know he has a he was getting A's and courses like physical chemistry that I was happy to get to see and.

[01:39:33]
So he did well there and what does he do for a living he is a lawyer because he after going to University of Houston he went to the University of Colorado to law school off to you raised a bunch of scholars that everybody agreed had made a race it's a big deal you know when you know your children through college.

[01:39:55]
Good for you now you let them worry about getting all those grandchildren through you know you have 151313 grandchildren mine back way home and all of this is in the twenty's and the young This is brand new That's right right spread if you ever have family reunions where everybody's there when you know when they're mad so annoyed and I mentioned has a 9 acre not a farm or anything but a very pretty place and now it's west of Austin I think and that's sort of the gathering place where everybody can go there be in one place at night and you got a poo and it must be fun it must be one that's a wide range of folks are not really.

[01:40:39]
You married again tell me about you I met her I was actually between marriages for about 17 years a long time now so you learn to be very independent idea take care of yourself you know and when. I guess it was my sister introduced Jan and me and 1979 because they were both working for Exxon Janet just transferred from New Orleans and gone to work for the Exxon office in Houston and.

[01:41:15]
My sister tells a story that she told Jan that she needed to meet her my her my sister's poor lonely divorced brother old brother that needed some help or do you didn't you were very independent So you met her that was in Texas and you know very often how long did your car for 8 years.

[01:41:39]
You were smart. You were factory for that so now 8 years have been what you retire this is moved here whose idea was it to move to health care well I call it a joint move I think Jan Newman Jan calls it at least a partial strong move on my part.

[01:42:05]
If you want to win everything in Texas No I well I don't know maybe we wanted to leave Houston because it had gotten so big the track so busy the traffic horrible there yeah yeah yeah yeah it is really a competition driving just like Atlanta. So you prove how did you pick you know.

[01:42:26]
We've been vacationing here for many years once again started by my sister who used to come here and told us that we should come soon enough so we will Miss Mary to get a look at those and the fact that all of you who did the noise we came here for you know since the early nineties that would've probably been close to 15 years vacationing each year.

[01:42:54]
We wanted to leave here Stan get out of the traffic we didn't couldn't think of another place said we thought would do as well as we liked Hilton Head So we decided we'd try it and see. How it works out when did you move here in 2000 and August also this is fairly new you know we're coming up on 3 years of this and even read the chart but it looks like retiring it's a super place for retiring the way regrets have been that the grandkids and kids didn't show up so we bought this big new Wow you're ready for when they you know that if when they do that's wrong so we regret not being able to see them as knowledge that having the family away and chance families up around Fort Worth So that would be what we would call a regret on it the terrorists are a little problem to deal with mostly in the summer but easily overcome and it is just such a beautiful place that we are willing so far to give up some of the stuff that you put up with being put up with either.

[01:44:03]
Or Jan is teaching a certain brand of yoga that is just not widespread it's a very intricate disciplined form of yoga and there are just not people here or very many at least that do that kind and that's been regret for her as not being close to I and God are the name of the yoga clothes and I.

[01:44:28]
Made this not widely publicized but there was a center in Houston and in Dallas and always. She might I keep telling us yeah this is our chance this region that was here it's a beautiful environment and of course it would be I think quite conducive to a righty to be out quiet time I commented about how very quiet it really is.

[01:44:53]
You could almost believe you were an island. And you are not well like many thousands of other people many thousands of troops well it has been a real pleasure being with you here today I can't thank you enough for your time and for your story and for filling me in and some of those things we didn't know Barger father.

[01:45:15]
I just think is really cool that divide out more about here we've really been elegant and I'm so impressed with your career with NASA and it's really nice to know that there with there's that aspect of it that so much of the world doesn't know I mean the astronaut is the figure you see a year ago up by himself That's true and once I said to one of the astronauts I interviewed I am awed at your courage and getting on the top of that things and taking a risk in your life and she said No that was JAN DAVIS And as she said I'm the lucky one I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people down below there and I'm sure I left Iraq from them everywhere I don't know says that it's just a little remarkable because we as the probably don't realize how many other little cars are in all of that you know how we building that thing but it's people like you by the training of it you know the operators from Houston that are doing the 247 S. a 247 operation a whistle and they're always somebody ready to step in always ready for crisis and it's pretty amazing the whole thing is amazing within this Yankee ingenuity is really really makes you proud Thank you sir for your time thank you very great joy to.