Thank you.

Was thank you and

I guess this is about women in design and
I'm a woman in design that's probably

about as much a connection
to that today so anyway.

I am a design manager of Coca-Cola.

But it's funny when you tell people that
you know there's usually the smart alec

remark like you guys already have so it's
kind of we don't sit around all day and

look at that and say hey we're done
it actually makes things kind of

difficult because I started out in
packaging and everybody comes to you and

says if only we had an iconic package for
our brain you know for us go for example

or we would really put us over the top you
know we'd be number one point fruit soda.

If we had an iconic bottle too so
we have to deal with all of that and

he also I think I've probably done
about ten Kokang to redesign project.

So everybody wants to do it over.

You know but why you get into design
management usually you've worked with.

Designer for a while.

First I started at Coke in the packaging
group designing packaging and

they've actually combined all design
efforts around the company lately and

we all work as I majors it means we manage
outside agencies to create concepts

were global group and usually the projects
are really big so we don't really have

the resources our group is pretty small
actually and there's only four of us.

So it's you know the tagline
getting your hands dirty or

keeping your white collar
clean it's sort of.

Trying to talk about you know you once you
do become a design manager you can't leave

your roots as and as you know someone
who's actually sitting doing the work or

you sort of lose what it
is about to be a designer.

That's important because it helps you stay
relevant at all levels of the project and

it helps you steer the project
strategically well because you also have

to know where you know design
comes from to begin with.

I think the most important thing is that
it helps you to break down the hierarchy.

With Project continuity so when you're you
know when you're starting with marketing

or moving you know you do research and
then you move into engineering you're not

just handing things off you actually
know the whole process and that's what's

important about and all the things
are important about design to begin with.

So it's an overview of what this
presentation is going to cover some

background about why I think this is
particularly important process for

how to kind of do that within your
organization and then to look at

each of the different parts of a project
so marketing research R. and D.

and how to influence those and
then talk a little bit about purpose.

So that a lot of times when I
talk to design managers you

hear is that you could.

People say you know I don't do design work
anymore and strategist and things like

that or there's some sort of weird insult
when you ask someone to do you design work

and I'm always really puzzled but I think
it's a bizarre reaction that you know I

think that it's you have to have you know
how to deal with that on your own terms.

But you also I think we have to think
about what that is doing to design.

So.

You know lately.

If you look around I think design is
obviously very trendy trying to say that

you're using design as a you
know business strategy marketing

gurus are really like latched onto it and
you know it's not really anybody's fault I

think that you know there are reasons why
design was elevated in the first place and

I think we have to make sure
that we don't let go of that.

Kevin McCullough wrote an article
I was on course seventy seven.

I think it's called where the backlash and

we talked about this notion of anti fluff
and anti stuff and these two pillars

are areas where design is really kind of
losing relevant since the disaffection for

design so is a rejection of the superstar
designer but more importantly

I think stuff is this sort of discomfort
with the role of the designer and.

The idea that we create
a lot of useless stuff so

how do we get beyond that
he he said he longs for

the days you know when we see Intelligent
Design made visible once again and

sort of not this goal to just make
things scream more loudly on the shelf.

So just a little bit more coffee.

You know these coffee makers I think it's
just sort of evident you know why does it

have to look like a rocket ship I
don't really understand you get

back to that question.

You know I think designers find themselves
in a couple places in their careers or

you know when they first start out
they're either designing things or

people tell them to I mean I think you
know when you start I know when I started

it was like I just whatever
somebody tells me do you all do it.

I don't care I'm a designer you know but

I think it's you know once you get to a
certain point in your career you you start

to have a better perspective of you know I
can influence all these aspects because I

you know Coke I have visibility to all
of them and that's a fortunate thing so

taking advantage of that is
something that I really try to do.

This is James Dyson if you haven't read
his autobiography I highly recommend it.

He talks about sort of that
same notion why you know why.

When we're trying to reject
the idea of making something or

doing something with their hands.

He doesn't know why that would be a cause
for celebration and you know it is his

role in creating his vacuum cleaner and
he created all things an entrepreneur so

you know being involved at
every step of the process.

He's able to make the best decisions and

then when people try to tell him to
do things differently he's he's so

confident what he's done that
it doesn't affect him at all.

I think he was trying to get Sears
to sell his vacuum cleaners and

they said you know we like the idea but
we really want to look more sleek so

sleek like the worst
word in design history.

He said No I don't know I've designed it
this way because this is what I believe

in and you know you can see the dirt and
I guess a lot of marketing people said

nobody's going to want to see
the dirt that's gross and

everything is a billionaire now so
anyway it's important.

And it but it's hard to be
that have the entrepreneurial

spirit at a place like Coca-Cola.

It's you know you don't really you
don't really get to create something or

start to finish sitting there on your own.

So that's why you have to really know how
to get into all the different areas and

have some impact.

So the thing I think that's

most important is is this notion of design
as a process and within a corporation

it's been really important for our group
to sort of establish that your credibility

you know you have to you can't just
show up one day and say I'm going to I'm

going to tell you got you know marketing
people I know more than you do you think.

But you can't just show up and do that.

So you have to position
yourself as a thought leader or

you do get stuck in this situation where
people are just telling you what to do and

you don't get to have a lot of say.

So you have to communicate what design
really is and then you can become

empowered to lead design and not just kind
of manage the process you know you don't

want to just be the one turning the
invoices you know typing up the notes so.

One way that we did that this
was a couple years ago now.

But our group had just kind of come
together as one big design conglomerate

and it was fortunate I was
having it at the time and

Coke has a really rich design history
they did a lot of stuff for Coke.

So we took advantage of that and

we did a presentation at Coca-Cola
with they are who we work with now.

And so it was a nice kind of way to say
hey that was coke in the past we want to

kind of reignite our our design passion
and you know talk about the things

that we own and so we invited people
at Coke and the design community and

he talked a lot about business and
design and you know why it's important.

So it was kind of a good introduction for
us if you don't happen to have

a really rich design history you can
always use someone else's design ideas so

demonstrating that leadership is
also bringing in thought leaders

that maybe aren't associate
with your company.

This is Ray Anderson ideas they
did in an event with Rangers and

the interface and he just you know he
talks so much about how design really

helped them to is helping them to
reach their goal of zero impact.

So I invited a lot of
people from coke to that I

think the head of packaging you know
he was he was really inspired by it.

So you start to become
the person that they go to for

that sort of information and
that kind of stimulation.

So once you position yourself
as the strategic partners.

You also have to show that you're
not a service organization and

something as simple as what you call
yourself is is really critical and

these are just some of the things that
I've been involved with over the years

where I've heard that I think her
are sort of tricky so if you.

You know if you call yourself design
services what else can you expect and it's

you're supporting That's what we're going
to do you are to put in our two Richter

also a little I think you know aren't
designed should be separated in a creative

is also frustrating I've heard people
be called style vendor it's so bizarre.

So I'd recommend you.

You know look at the design group
not that that's the best name but

it sort of gets right to the point.

I think.

You know the other thing you have to do is
you help to help people you have to invite

people into your process so the design
brief is the most important thing for

you know when you're managing design
that's that's like here in your Bible it's

the thing that you.

You always refer back to to check
how you are and what you're doing so

it's funny that when there was a big
meeting we were having one day and

there was like twenty people in the room
there are suppliers designers you know our

group was there and I guess we were
up we like to present you know these

are our recommendations these are our top
ideas and one of the guys from the design

firm was up there talking and he said
you know he was just going to his thing.

This guy from supply
chain just gets up and

he actually said you know what does this
guy know we're going to get to vote and

when so used to like going to put a little
stickies on the board and you know

you see all these ideas and they just
want to pick out which one they like and

that's where you can really get trouble
because that guy had not been involved

in the whole process what has his role
is to inform the design brief if there

are constraints that's
what he needs to tell us.

But this is what we're doing is
really dangerous for everybody.

So what we do another way we get around

that are helped to establish that
you know we're making the decisions.

Once you've established credibility.

First of all we have a design
roundtable every Monday and so

our group sits sits down and if there
are concepts that we need to consider

we you know we say these are the top ideas
and sometimes represent all of them but

most of the time you know we'll just go in
with that recommendation if you already

elevate the conversation with these
different groups so marketing R. and D.

They can't just say you know I don't like
that but you know they have to read you've

been really good reasons it meets the
briefs and that in that and then they can

just stand there and say I need to look
sleeker I don't think it looks you know

what they usually usually just say sleek
which is when to try things they're crazy.

I don't know what that means.

Sometimes they're no matter
how hard you try you.

You kind of run into these obstacles so

this was another meeting I was in in the
design agency they were working with and

we've been talking all about
who's to design it was a.

Closure and it was a bottle and you know
and the label at the same time and and.

You know we can Potato Head
somebody comes not a big deal.

You guys just pick talks when I'm sitting
there are more than five you know like you

just destroyed everything
that I tried to build up.

So you have to coach the people
that you work with as well.

An important piece of managing design and

you know doing it right is choosing
your partners wisely you can't.

Have you know saying one thing and

then they're like Yeah we'll just take the
notes and change what I receive a change.

You know has to come through to you.

And that's really where you have a lot
of power here because you establish

those relationships and they're the ones
that you work the closest with so

you also want to work with people who
are going to challenge you and your team.

I think that's the thing that I've learned
you know it's really easy to work with

with people who will just roll over and
do whatever you ask but

you want to be challenged.

I mean it's it's it's such it gets to be
you know much more fun if you can have

the healthy debates around everything so.

So once you sort of
a stablish your process and

your philosophy you want to evangelize
it this is a fundamental Marzano And

I think Philips does a really good job of
this I think a lot of people are probably

familiar with their notion of simplicity
is their you know their That's what they

live by and everything that they do so
it's a lot easier for

the whole corporation to get behind
it with somebody up on how you mean.

Steve Jobs is a good example to it's like
that's what everybody understands and

what they can believe and
I don't think we're there Coca-Cola.

Maybe.

So.

One of the areas that you know when
you're working on a project at Coke

it's very cross functional there's people
from all different groups involved so

the the big ones I'm going to touch on
here marketing obviously it's one of those

projects we work on originate within
the marketing group or and D.

but you know once they start to know that
you have credibility they come to you and

you have to.

You also I have to recognize a Coke is a
marketing company and you know that's the.

Sort of a we do we mean we also there's
sort of a fine line between coke

a brand or is it a product so I think
most people would say it's a brand but

I think the thing that's interesting
is that design has always had its

roots in how Coke kind of became
what it is the Coke was originally

in a straight wall bottle as generic It
was a stock bottle and you know the B.

idea to make the contrapuntal
was marketing driven

you know not only that but
also from the people who were buying it.

They wanted to know they were buying
real coke marketing wanted people to buy

real coke and not imitation so
you know that's what you're paying for

what you want to get so the brief was you
know you can put your hand in the ice and

feel that it's a coke bottle and
also beyond that you know you can

tell that it's a coke bottle and
spoken on the ground.

It's something that they could trademark
in that nobody else could copy so

that's sort of how Coke helped to
establish itself has a lot of right.

So I think when you.

When you talk to you know some
marketing that you have to make sure

that you're meeting a real need and a lot
of times you know they come to you and

say we want to just we want to increase
market share and on Friday nights or

you know we want to sell
more sprite on Saturday.

Whatever it is.

You'd be surprised the crazy
stuff they come up with but

it's your job to help marketing
understand that you know got it.

That's what you're trying to do but
why and

what do you know how can we sort of
going to have a solution for that.

That makes sense for the people who
may actually want the product so

try to make them make better products and

not just you know better labels or
better advertising campaigns.

One example of that we Mexico
has called the global chain and

asked had said you know we're losing
market share with young adults

Coke is huge in Mexico and people really
love Coke but you know it's starting

to be seen by the younger population as
something that their parents during So

you know that's sort of the role of
marketing to design to stay relevant.

You know with anybody.

Who you know may be interested in
using your products so it was really

looked at packaging and equipment to see
if there's any ways we could do that but

first of all we said you know we have to
get to know who these people are you can't

you know we're over here in Atlanta we
need to understand you know who are these

teenagers that you're talking about.

So we you know we went there and we talked
to a lot of people we talked to teens and

also talked to some people
who interact with a lot and

it was interesting to find
out a lot of things that

nobody had you know there are a lot of
assumptions about what teenagers do and

what they like in Mexico particularly
there was more about the environment and

cultural currency in connection
than anybody had thought so

a lot of the ideas you know just coming up
with brainstorming around you know what

are some things that would actually
make sense for them as a result so they

they took back somebody I'm not sure where
they are with any of us right now but

you know thinking about municipality
projects like bus stops and

how can you talk more about recycling
I think that Coke bottle would show

how often how many times you reuse
your last bottle just ideas like that.

So sometimes it's just little things but

you can't find those really key insights
if you don't actually get down and

get to know people involved is this is
an example of maybe the way not to do it.

It was everything was
on a parallel path and

I think this was called Project paradigm.

So if you're familiar with all that
sort of it's not Mountain Dew.

And it's not supposed to be like
Mountain Dew But you know it was

we had to do it really fast because
it's always you know top priority.

Everything's top priority.

So they didn't have a name.

They didn't even know what the product was
going to be they didn't know how big it

was you know the serving was going to be
but at the same time we were supposed

to create a bottle because
that's like a long time.

Right.
So you know you sit down and

it's impossible.

Really.
So

you know you get back all these ideas and
they're just all over the road right and

it's you know you kind of struggle to
figure out what are we going to do

with all this stuff it's you know it's
it was really I should have taken more.

Ownership in you know we're not going to
do this right now we're going to wait or

you know delay the whole project but you
also could say you know what we've done

after this is used our design
groups to create vectors so

brain vectors are areas of interest to
really help the marketing team define that

because they they're having a really hard
time defining who they want to talk to or

how they want to talk to people.

That's really the thing
that most valuable for

us when we're designing is the brand
personality and you know the voice.

What are you trying to communicate.

So you know is this impossible for anybody
to even agree on what was the best route.

So we have a pretty safe
design because as a result but

you know it's it's a pretty safe guess.

So that's another area you know when you
talk to marketing they're always talking

about the Target Target is one thousand
to twenty nine year old males and

I think that that's that's something
that's an old fashioned way to talk about

who you want to talk to.

So this is a really good book.

If you haven't picked it up but
it's he talks a lot about targeting and

this was talking in particular about the
Internet and the ability to connect people

to local resources and I think that's
an interesting notion about targeting that

it's not really advertising once you get
to that level because people want to know

if you know what they want and
you make it and you tell about it.

It's not advertising I don't think anybody
would want to ever say that they enjoy

being advertised at you know.

So I think that's a good way.

Also to talk to marketing team.

B.M.W. had a campaign I think this
was probably a couple years ago too.

But they they talked about you know
just saying no to compromise and

you know it's really easy to cope to to.

Try to go at Mass with everything
that we do I think you know

just based on everything that people
know right now it's it's no longer that

you can't make a product that's mass
that really connects with anyone but

it's really surprising how much
I still hear that you know here.

You know you'll you'll go down a path and
create something and

then some guy always ends I
wouldn't buy this in a flood.

Well it needs to be met.

So I don't understand
those news really but

he's completely different from who you may
expect to buy the product he would never

say well based on his
input great change it.

All right so just Waters everything down.

It makes design it's really mediocre So
I think B.M.W.

had an interesting way to just you know.

No I think if you looked on that side all
these people were saying all things you

know that compromise does this and
this and it's just not it's not worth it.

So.

Research is another area that I think
the designers know how to do they

understand what is design research.

There's always a debate that
designers don't know how to do it and

researchers don't know how to design you
know just all this drama all the time but

I think if everybody knows
where they need to get it and

if you understand we're trying to find
that need or you know what is it that

this person may want it should she should
benefit from the various perspectives.

So obviously it's important that
you study life and not science.

So I think you know people
get ethnographic So

an observational research but
at Coke we don't always do it in

the right way we saw a very negative
against I love code by the way it's great.

Anyway research but.

Sometimes you'll get handed like
a big stack of research and and

it'll come at the same time as
you hear about a new project so

it's like you weren't involved in that
know the people who were going to be

designing anything were
involved in any of that.

So you have to help your team know your

marketing marketing is usually the one
who's sort of in charge of the whole team.

Let them know that there
is a better way to do it.

You have to work that into your design
briefs and your project so hopefully you

can get it funded as well I mean that's
that's one of the hardest conversations.

If anybody is going to be doing it.

They have to you know get paid for
it too and

usually they don't want to
pay more people to do it.

So you have to try to get
some of that money away from.

From the research team.

It's not enough that you want
to do it all by yourself.

But the reason get your designer is to
have a couple days out to take a look at

the stuff and you were a group right
now to design some vending machines for

Japan they've never been to Japan and they
don't live in Japan and it's I don't think

it's very fair you know it's it's not
really the best way to do things right.

So but

you you know you work with what you've got
so it has to be a part of the process.

The other thing I think that's important
to keep in mind no matter what

you're doing.

You know I know when I first started at
Coke you assume everybody just knows so

much more than you.

Maybe that's just me but you know you
hear people say things they just sound

like they know what they're talking
about but I was I had a bottle of

palm of my desk one day and I guess
it was a vice president or something.

You know when we walk by and
he's like what's this.

And I'm just like you want
the beverage company and

you don't know what palm I
mean pom is a pretty big deal.

It's part of it.

I mean it's a big you
know lots of going on.

Pomegranate and I think you know
especially for someone in packaging.

It's not be familiar with it
at least it just tells you

that you know a lot of people
they get up in the morning they

go to work they go home watch T.V.
and go to bed.

You know people aren't getting out
there and I think that designers have

this curiosity that you know we're
the ones who do get out there and

want to that's part of what
makes you know our work.

Good and rewarding.

So just you know.

You go out and find for yourself.

I think Charles in rain.

Said don't outsource understanding and
that's probably one of the most

important things the Psion I think
that if things worked out for

word he said some person in marketing
had no idea what asylum was which is

you know it's just troubling really.

So you know going out and
finding what people really need and

you're not just using the numbers
from the research that you're

handed the other thing that we tend
to do coke is focus group research.

You know you get all these ideas and you
put in front of people and they just pick.

You know they pick up the.

People hang on their every word but
it's trouble because they only know what

they've seen and they're going to say I
like the ones that I look like they want

to it's really communicating what I think
it should be communicating and that to me

that's not their job their job is you know
at the end of the day if you want to do.

Some sort of market testing until
you put something in the market.

I don't think there's any way to
really test it to me that's why all

of these packages look the same
These are not Coke products.

I don't think none of them are but
they have that similar look and

what is it really it's very safe.

So if that's what you want then I
guess that's a good way to do it.

One project we have that
I think went really well

in the realm of research we didn't
actually focus group test any

of these packages which is surprising
because when you do something

to the Coke bottle it's
a pretty big deal right.

But this project everything
just sort of aligned.

There was a market need.

There was a person to me.

So it was you know about when you
go out and you're not drinking.

This is a club bottle
is what it's called or

if you are drinking you
could add alcohol to it.

So it's like sort of met
a few different needs and it.

It was also interesting that
culturally it had some elevated

the awareness of five graphic designers.

So you know we didn't we didn't
do any research on it and

I think it sort of would defeat
the purpose it was sort of a you know.

Underground thing so that was one project
that I think we did really well where

we resisted the urge to ask
people would you want really does

this still look like a coke bottle to
you and we just kind of went with it and

we were we were all really confident and
in doing that.

So it was good.

So again I mean this is
Alan Kay He is a computer

scientist one of the most influential So

you know he talks about inventing the
future instead of instead of just you know

looking to the past and see what everybody
else is done so I think that's the point

that I'm trying to make here and then
the other thing you get a lot of time.

In research and for
marketing it's you know what.

What are the design trends that
are going on right now and

it's there's a big difference between
you know global trends and attitudes and

things like that versus color trends and
you know fashion it is just so

fleeting that I think if you want
to design good products you really

have to resist the urge to to kind of
latch on to these that I used this example

pink because someone actually suggested
that was pink pigs going to be big.

Next I don't really want to be big next
year we should have a pink whatever I

don't even know what it was but

you'd be surprised that you know
people are like a good idea.

So it's good for

you know I'm you know I'm always
looking at design websites and

magazines but it's also good to kind
of remove yourself from that in a way.

R. and B. the last area I think
that designers the closest and

from just away from engineers I think it's
kind of a you know there's always that

friction there but it's such a healthy
should be healthy for action.

So a lot of times the engineers.

They're just so ready to write off.

What do you and I think it is probably
more typical that you know big

corporations that are sort
of you know a little bit

conservative they you know
you get a lot of designers.

I mean they always like do their hand like
that and they talk about the designers.

So it's really where so
the other thing that's

frustrating is with engineering is
you know you get the whole line.

You know we're going to sit down.

We're going to design this piece
of equipment or this bottle.

You know let's talk
through the constraints or

just on a general level and.

Whenever anybody said to me I
don't want to constrain just.

The the most infuriating thing that anyone
could say I mean I think it's I think

it's just laziness really I don't know
why anybody wouldn't want to help

inform you know what people are trying
to do because it's just a giant

waste of time if you do a lot of work
without knowledge of you know any of

anything that's going to
constrain it along the line.

So I think it's an easier way.

For them to kind of say OK thanks for that
was we're going to go do what we want to.

So you really I mean that's probably
the thing that you have to watch out for

the most and
if they're not ready to get information

you have to go find yourself
talking to suppliers.

Anyway you know going to where things
are actually going to be made.

That's that's really critical.

Because when you.

You know when people don't
know how things are made.

I think you come up with products
that are substandard you know there's

you don't know what you could have done
and you know there's missed opportunities

if you do you know the constraints are so
much more that you can do so

I think that a thing to consider
in general about designing a year.

There's so much about you know the
backlash that we're making too much stuff

that's useful or if you.

You know it does lead to a lot of waste
when people are unhappy with products and

they find you know something else just
you know the next thing you want to try

to cut that off and help people feel
better about the things that they buy.

So another Dyson quote that
engineering is a state of mind and

you know his his whole company
is set up that around the idea

that ideas come from anywhere and
everywhere and they should.

There's no hierarchy and he says you can
be an expert in anything in six months so

you know if there's an engineer you can
work with just go learn their job right.

He he.

That's just sort of you know how he
he created such a valuable product

anyway he he wasn't really
bound by I'm just a designer or

I think he started out as a painter
actually so you know he figured out.

So really creating a partnership with
your technical team is it's critical.

They if you can engage them on
you know skunkworks projects or

to help you know just help
to find the process for

them even when it's just around
having a conversation you know want.

I've had so many discussions with
engineers where they you know when

you actually ask them
what are the constraints.

It's sometimes some of them are just so
receptive they're they're excited that you

want that and
some people just don't get it.

So those images are just.

Like it's our Just player and so it's sort
of the safe zone where we talk about our

successes so that's where design and
engineering kind of shares a zone of and

we celebrate stuff so
another another thing that we did.

There was.

I guess that you'd say it was
like a technology right so

we had some new technology and
there was also a platform for

development within R. and D.
but they came and they came to me and

said you know we we need to make
some concepts around this right.

So you know again you could just take a
technology and start to justify around it.

What does that actually mean.

So we set up a workshop it
was a couple day workshop and

we kind of equally shared the time with
the technology so talking through me.

Definitely needed this technology to do
a lot of stuff but also trying to help

the engineers understand consumer insights
so taking them out with cameras and

you know things like that to
writing down observations.

So that really you know it got
everybody in the same mindset like

they started understanding why they could
actually use technology I mean it's

I think it's critical for them it's easy
for them just to collect things that

they could slap on you know but once they
can see their ideas are really going for

something that does mean something to
people then that's that's much more

exciting right so when you involve
them in that it makes a lot of sense.

It also helps them recognise that you know
some things are are just novelties that

may never make sense for anyone to do
the thing that we did in the workshop that

I really had to fight for was prototyping
These are images of some some quick

prototyping that we did and not that I do
you know invention or anything but they do

a lot of that in their brain storming
processes so no matter what it you know

you're like cutting up existing stuff and
you're it's totally make believe.

Right but it's it's getting people
back into that like child's own right.

When you're actually creating things
the child you don't really care if

it looks right or not but
you're making stuff.

The engineers that I was working
at home his workshop were like.

No way we're not doing that.

That's just stupid.

So that night I got them to agree
to have a session at night so

people had to stay late to actually
do this but I'd say we got

ninety percent just patient I had to kick
people out at like ten o'clock at night

because they're just making all these
rules it was it was incredible.

But it helped it helped them to see you
know the importance of the process.

You know you when you're designing
something it's it's very much about give

and take and you know investigating it's
not just about applying a technology so

that was a really rewarding experience and

and a good thing to do when
you're working with engineering.

So this is just an example you
know putting in a television and

a refrigerator I think they
sold like fifteen of these so

it's just because you can do it
doesn't mean you should do it.

And you know when you look back at
everything even marketing and research

and R. and D. constraints are really the
only thing you know like the vault example

we had no constraints on the brand for any
kind of you know packaging or could design

if you don't have constraints you really
you shouldn't even attempt write.

The last thing I want to
talk about is purpose and

you know I think it's important for

us to remember why we're designers in the
first place and you know just getting back

to the idea you know the notion of if you
want to make stuff you want to make stuff

that's that's important it's not just
about making stuff for the sake of it.

So this is another really good book.

If you have read it.

Ice Palace that melted away.

He talks about civility and you know I
think that that could be what's missing in

a lot of design is just you know we
create a lot of things that create

more disruption in our lives than the
necessary sometimes you know he's he makes

his point that stability can be extended
by technology or obliterated by it.

I think you could insert design in there
you know you can create a lot of really

complicated things and make people feel
bad because you don't know how to use them

or you can create something that's that
simple and beautiful and easy to use and

and it just really elevates you know so
I think it's a really good.

And Phil as well you know.

That's always another company that
they're working right now and

they came down and did and

I guess they haven't but they work a lot
like die from their design entrepreneurs.

They have a really strong mission
statement about the products they create

lifelong products and stuff that
they would actually want to use and

in there I've never been to their store
but I guess in their store in Boston.

They have sketches and
prototypes all around.

So it really helps people see where things
come from and I think that's something I I

really would love for more people to be
exposed to see the actual design process

so you sort of have more of an idea of
what goes into what you're buying and why.

Maybe it's better are not so good.

Than something else.

Right.
Just another idea to

think about supernormal if
you're familiar with the.

Gesture Larsen and focus our They
talk a lot about you know leaving out

the design as the design right so
designing out the flourishes and

you know when you look at
a product that's really simple.

It's it's.

You know people that I work with who who
aren't really sensitive to design there

are rejected as not designed you know if
it's a straight why didn't you design

it you know it's really hard for them to
to grasp the notion that you know there is

a right solution based on everything
that you have in front of you and

it doesn't have to be all cooped up
all the time and they you know they.

I think just from Orson was looking at a
goblet that he had that was just a really

you know it was a simple goblet but it was
it made him enjoy his glass of wine so

much more than any other glass to drink.

He decided to call it
a supernormal glass so

I think that's where that
sort of came from the.

This is an exhibit that
they put together but

I think there's also a book
you want to check that out.

So just for purpose in general I think
it's important to to think about stuff and

read about stuff do some
writing teaching if you can and

if you aren't doing design like myself.

Try to give.

I can do it somehow.

It's really hard to do but just the idea
that you keep your hands involved

in something I think is is really key.

So this just sort of a summary when you.

You know stick your process make
better products get to know people and

needs and really focus on that when you're
when you're designing constraints and

always work with integrity and.

Since this was about women in design
I decided to end with it was I so

she's my favorite woman designer and

just the idea that design is
a thoughtful activity and you.

You have to to actually be
engaged in it to make it work and

communicate with others.

It's really her message and if you've
ever held any of her products and

it's just kind of elevate
it's they're amazing.

They really feel different.

And they're the to use them as
something beyond just a regular way.

Anyway I think that's what's exciting.

So I thank you for

talking with the owner.

Yes.

Right

well you know I mean I think that's
where we're really trying to to

influence people to do that.

I think it's it's it's a hard thing when
you're talking you know they give you this

song and dance about what a renovation and

you guys have to keep it fresh which I
understand that I mean there's something

about marketing that I know I don't
quite get you know it's very much about.

Just keeping them keeping
your brand out there right.

So I mean I understand that but

using design in the right way is is
is what we try to help people do.

But I'm lucky in that there are a lot
of opportunities to like I'm working

a lot of equipment right now and we're
really focusing on you know usability and

trying to get them away from just making
it louder and more stickers on it and

there's just there's so

much that we're trying to I think we're
doing that we're creating a language for

the new machines that's that's
really going to help to do that.

I think it's been something that we've
worked hard to get to more START

we're now positioned so that we can have
more impact I mean there's also a lot of

I think Coke is pretty aware
of the fact that recycling is

a really big deal in that sustainability
you know we're it's critical for

our company investing more in that and
there's a lot of stuff going on

around you know white waiting packaging
that's always something that we do so

it's something that it's not
always obvious to the public.

We don't talk about it but when you're
lightweight impact as you change the form

you change slightly and it's a lot of
just you know up keep in a way too so

I don't know if I answer your question but
there are some things that we're doing

on the positive it and it's hopefully
you know can keep that other that

that urge to always reinvent when it's not
necessary from happening all the time.

But it is a challenge.

It's going to OK.

I didn't I wasn't here I was
that is hell on that terrible.

There's you know I did go to she
had a lecture in New York at

a conference it was.

It was really incredible.

She's very cool.

She's the work and
she's over one hundred years old.

And you Kevin.

You know there's not there's not
actually designed Research Group.

We have a group called knowledge and
insights and

they will have little they'll get
a project or they'll be someone

dedicated to like use for example and
they'll work with with the team and

you know it'll be like the research
everything like concept of element but

from a marketing perspective
pricing studies and

design is another thing that they do look
at but it's not the only thing they do.

So what we're trying to do is
keep them from research keep

the whole group from feeling the urge to
research like a lot of design options and

to get to one point where you just
researched the whole idea as a whole and

as like a market tests right.

So that's why they're sort of
like this part of the missing and

that's why we're trying
to allude that there's

there are people who understand that
it's missing within the knowledge and

insights group but it's not you can't
really define it until you have a project.

You don't really know kind of research to
do and that's sort of where we're we have

a better or better position to do that
because they're better at working with big

suppliers who just you know they crank
through research all the time like Nielsen

and they you know they have big charts and
decks of just tons of data and

you know that the research where you
just have like notes and pictures and

they're not so good at processing that
because they're more about statistics.

So that's it and
marketing is marketing sort of.

It's always the project owner.

They have the money and
they're the ones who say we're going to do

is that design is your question or
you have.

Russia.

OK.

I think you know it's absurd of trying to
explain it here or something that it could

do a good job but he you have to kind of
work at it for a while to understand.

Or you could actually ask someone
else to do the work right.

So if you're going to the agency and
say I need you to like a bottle

you better be sure you've done
one yourself before right.

So I think that prepares you know
that prepared me in a lot of ways

and I mean I was just
kind of thrown into it.

You sort of get thrown to money you say we
need you to hire a design project we sort

of you learn fast right I think
that's the thing that was

the biggest wake up call for
me on any job ever had.

You learn so
much more when you start working and

it's impressive how much can one really
when you when you get out of school.

There's a different there's a different
way that you learn it's like for

survival and I think it Co-Q it.

It's a very political place and
knowing how to navigate.

I don't know how to prepare for that
really it's a frustrating scenario and

a lot of a lot of times but I think
that's one thing you have to be very do

if you want to work for
a large corporation during design.

If it takes a special
patient in a way that other

people who you know there are definitely
people who would never want to do it.

They want to they want to do design work
all day long for a consulting group and

that's that's you know that's the balance
right it's a pretty different job.

If you had a question

you know I have an industrial
design degree from Georgia Tech.

Well

just a manager in the design
I don't know from a leader.

Maybe you could consider that the.

The the the skills you
have to have beyond.

You know understanding and
appreciating does not mean you have to

be pretty organized you have to
understand you know budgets and

you have to write briefs you
have to do a lot of writing and

create a lot of strategy for
how can we approach this project.

So I think it gets back to your
question to Roger you know how.

Being able to transition from someone
telling you what to do to you being

the one who kind of creates the path
is you have to start to formulate

your own ideas about what makes design
important or what makes good design and

to do things like this you sort
of you start to put it all

in one place like this is what I believe
and you know reading a lot about you know

just just not only designer what other
designers have done but you know reading.

Just anything to get your
hands on a strategy or

that kind of stuff that sort of
seems boring to me a lot of times

if those are the sort of
things I think I have done.

Maybe not on purpose but sort of to
survive you have to do that stuff so.

Yeah well if you know you want to times
like if you're creating a new brand

you the marketing team can't really
tell you how to design that So if you're

doing packaging design for a new brand
you kind of have to come back to them and

say OK we've taken a stance you know we
think it needs to be modern apothecary or

what I mean it's sort of weird stuff
like that but you also start to carve

out you know one of the areas of
you know design language that you

should start looking at because you're the
one who has to tell the design agency what

to do you have to help them understand you
know what areas to focus and we want to

you know you have to sort of prioritize
it's is it about sustainability first and

that is about premium and you know there's
things that you have to help marketing or

seeing because they only have marketing
terms and then you have design words in.

Theories and.

Things that you have to
start applying to that so.

Yeah you know I think that's the thing
that I think is most interesting you

designers who really.

I think have a good idea
about what they're doing and

when you have good reasons for

things it doesn't matter what the content
looks like I mean there's a certain level.

Obviously that you have to reach but
you know I get all sorts of

different a span of different
ways that ideas are communicated.

But you know it's really about
is the idea coming across.

Did you did you hit all the things
you're supposed to hit and

there you are you on three.

The you know the notion
of Alias versus not.

I don't think going to a I think alias or

any kind of cat is the last thing you
should do it sort of wrap things up.

Right.
I mean if you have to do that for

a process that's fine but

keeping it loose when you're still working
within your design group is is better.

I mean we also know with marketing that
they can't really visualize things as

well as we can.

So we have to take it
to a certain level or

else they think we haven't done the work I
mean it's just a weird you know it's just

if you just do an outline of
something then they're not really

going to connect to the you've got
to put labels on it which is fair.

When we want to design the whole thing
we want to get to see the whole thing

all at once.

So it's sort of.

You know it's really never
a question of you guys have to do

alias right now it's more about we need
CAD now because we need prototypes.

So it makes sense for the process.

I guess.

I think that the best way would be figured
out how to do that and it really is

a challenge because when you design
something you may be given a project and

it's it's a global project but you have
to make sure you know who your lead

market's going to be especially so
you can know what your constraints are our

minds like our production lines all around
the world are so different that you know

millimeters of height difference can
really screw the whole thing up.

So you know you design for
a lead market but the goal.

The marketing group has
to has to also give you

the insight that is
a global proposition right.

I mean there are some there
are projects that happen.

Locally like in North America there
are a lot of brands that don't exist

anywhere else that would have been
developed just in North America.

So it's sort of on the on
marketing shoulders to say you

know this is definitely proposition.

So we need you to work on it and

you know that helps to know
that it is going to be but

the thing that we do is we call freedom
of the framework so you have to be able

to people with tools to kind of localize
and specialize particularly with graphics.

It's a lot easier to do so

you give them a tool kid essentially And
you know if it's if it's a market.

You can't use a picture of a real fruit
you have to use an image of you know some

phony kind of like a phantom For example
there's a lot of that that goes on that

you know we do have to design for
flexibility in our to so because

everybody every market says they have
special needs and they're very different.

So you definitely have
to build a lot of that

want.