FRED RASCOE: Hey, Sonya. Welcome back. Glad to have you on Lost in the Stacks again. 

SONYA SLUTSKAYA: Thank you, Fred. I'm so happy to be back. 

FRED: Since you're here do you want to go ahead and start this show. 

SONYA: I'll be happy to. 

FRED: All right. Just hit that button right-- 

SONYA: Which one? 

FRED: There. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

CHARLIE BENNETT: On a scale of, "Sure let's sit down and talk about it", to "Pull the fire alarm and clear the building", how tired are you of people talking about card catalogs? 

BETH SHOEMAKER:: I'm not quite sure what to say. Do I have to choose one of those extremes? I mean, especially now I mean a lot of my students-- I have more younger generation students, who may have not had any experience at card catalog. So honestly, I don't get asked about it very often. 

So I'm cool. I'm cool. It's nice decoration. 

KAREN SNOW: I'm mostly tired of seeing them on crafting sites as possible thread cabinets or something else. 

BETH: Well you don't like that? 

KAREN: Well, it's what I'd use it for if it were in my house. But still. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

CHARLIE: You are listening to WREK Atlanta. And this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the virtual studio with Marlee Givens, Wendy Harmer, Fred Rascoe, and the return of our guest producer, Sonja Slutsky. 

Each week on Lost in the Stacks we pick a theme, and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk, whichever you are here for, we hope you dig it. 

MARLEE GIVENS: Today's show is called the cataloging code of ethics. 

WENDY HAGENMAIER: I feel like something is missing from that title. 

CHARLIE: Yes, Marley should have said cataloging with a U. 

MARLEE: Right, because this code of ethics was created by and for the cataloging communities of the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom. 

FRED: Wait. How did Wendy know there wasn't a you in cataloging when she said that? 

SONYA: Marlee, Charlie and I interviewed the co-chairs of the catalog and steering committee. That shoemaker from Emory University and Karen snow from Dominican University. 

WENDY: Beth and Karen talked with us about realizing the need for a code of ethics in the cataloging profession, and how they worked across this international community of calalogers to write one. 

FRED: I mean, you say it the same whether there's a U not, right? 

SONYA: The songs today are about the need for change, deciding what's important, and how changes in the world change a person or the other way around. 

FRED: Cataloging. Cataloguing. Anyway, OK. In the spirit of international cooperation, just like the cataloging code of ethics project, our show will feature songs by artists from the US, Canada, and the UK. 

CHARLIE: We couldn't decide whether our first songs should be American, British, or Canadian. So we went with all three. Here's Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young with pre-road Downs. A song about making it work across the miles here on Lost in the Stacks. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

FRED: That was pre road Downs by CSNY-- Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young. This is Lost in the Stacks and we are speaking with Beth shoemaker and Karen snow, co-chairs of the cataloging ethics steering committee, which just released the final draft of the cataloging code of ethics. 

MARLEE: When did you first become interested in working on a cataloging code of ethics, Beth? 

BETH: That kind of goes back to the origin story of this whole process. When I was doing my library degree, I did a class called advanced cataloging. And we discussed lots of different issues in cataloging, including critical cataloging, and different current topics. And I was really interested in cataloging ethics. 

Mostly because at the time I was like, what could that possibly mean. So I did some research. And for that class I wrote 2/3 of paper or article. Once I was working professionally, there's in Milwaukee at the library school, they have conferences on ethics and cataloging. 

And so I presented my paper at that conference. And then subsequently published it. Incidentally, that conference where I met Karen for the first time. And so that paper sort of snowballed a little bit into an ALA-- an American Library Association section. Taking interest in cataloging ethics. And furthering the cause, which became the steering committee. 

MARLEE: Karen, why do you think catalogs need a code of ethics? 

KAREN: I believe that catalogs need a code of ethics mainly in order to think through, help them think through some of the issues that arise that I think most catalogers have at least some innate knowledge that there are issues there. They may not recognize them necessarily as ethical issues, but I think that many catalogs would like to have some guidance on some of these issues that arise in their work. 

Because despite some opinion, there's a lot of cataloging work that is not objective, straightforward data entry. There's a lot of intellectual activity that happens there. And we have to think beyond just what we're doing. Just the resource that we're looking at to think how this work that we're doing will affect a wide variety of stakeholders. 

And so I think having a code of ethics will help guide and frame some of these issues that catalogers face. So that they know they're kind of not alone. They have some guidance on what to be looking for and what to do. 

SONYA: So I guess our next question would be, how did that thinking and interest in ethics translated into creating a committee. And doing something that's more formalized than just the general discussion about ethics and cataloging. We can start with Beth again. 

BETH: Partly it happened because under the agents of the American Library Association, there's a section called the cataloging metadata management section, which is historical. They've kind of reorganized now. And so that section sort of took an interest in the idea of cataloging ethics and had a couple of different forums. 

So they have a program at the conferences to talk about ethics, including some roundtable discussions where practitioners and other interested people could say what they thought, and whether they thought it was a useful thing, or what it might contain, what it might address. And so after those forums, the Cam section then decided that there was enough interest to think about forming a group to create this code. 

MARLEE: It was an international effort. So Karen, could you tell us why it was important for this to be international? 

KAREN: Yes, so it is an international effort, we wanted it to be an international effort. Because there are people around the world who catalog, and also face some similar issues. So we decided to involve primarily others from Canada and the UK as part of the steering committee at least to be involved. Also, we had some guidance from these working groups, that we solicited volunteers from the International cataloging community who are interested in providing feedback for us in creating this code of ethics. 

So we had participants from around the world on those working groups. Because we didn't want the cataloging code of ethics just to be from the American point of view. We wanted a diverse set of viewpoints to be represented in this document. 

CHARLIE: What did you take as a model for this work? Or where were you taking your inspiration from in the method? 

KAREN: So there are various documents that we were looking at. The primary one being the American Library Association Code of Ethics, which there are some overlaps there. So it's not the same document, but we felt a code of ethics for catalogs represents specific issues specific to catalogers as well. So the ALA code of ethics as well as the CILIP-- the British Library Association CILIP also has their code of ethics. 

And then there is the statement of international cataloging principles as well. So we looked at a variety of documents from different organizations. And then try to shape our documents around issues that we felt were specific to the cataloging profession and ethics. 

CHARLIE: We'll be back with more about the cataloging code of ethics after a music set. 

MARLEE: File this set under HM831 and C672.3. I585. 

(SINGING) Are you ethical? Yes. No. Are you ethical? Yes. No. Are you ethical? Yes. No. Are you ethical? 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

WENDY: That was Bad Reputation by Joan Jett and the Blackhearts, and before that, Hobson's Choice by the Ethical Debating Society. Those were songs about realizing the need for a change to be brought about by the good kind of trouble. As performed by American and British artists. 

MARLEE: This is Lost in the Stacks. And we're back with Beth Shoemaker and Karen Snow, co-chairs of the cataloging ethics steering committee. In the last segment, we talked about the need for a cataloging code of ethics and about creating the steering committee. 

For this segment, we asked Beth and Karen about the 10 statements of ethics principles outlined in the document. And what principle they feel is the most important. 

BETH: There is in addition to the 10 principles. We do have an introduction, that includes scope and definitions. We do preface the 10 principles by saying if they're not in any particular order. So none of them is more important. 

I think it is true that some of them affect what you can do personally locally in your department, or in your milieu you work in. Whether you're a sole catalog, or a large department or something in between. And then there are things that really take work with your organization to try and implement. 

So I don't think any are more important than the others. We ask individual catalogers to do things, but we also ask them to work with colleagues and within their work situation to try and implement the principles that we have laid out. Karen, would you like to add to that? 

KAREN: I mean, I think that's right. I think that we see them all as equally important in their own ways. As Beth was saying, they all kind of address slightly different ideas. So there are some that are going to be a little bit more difficult than others, because different organizations have different structures and policies. 

But otherwise, we intentionally decided not to place them in order of importance, because we thought they were all equally important. 

CHARLIE: What's one you think people will have difficulty with, or organizations will have difficulty with? 

KAREN: So I mean, in my opinion, I'll just kind of jump in. So in my opinion, I guess it just may depend on the organization. But one thing that I know that may be difficult for just the cataloging community generally is the statement number five, which is to support efforts to make standards and tools financially intellectually and technologically accessible to all catalogers, and develop with evidence based research and stakeholder input. 

So I know that that's in the catalog and community. That's been something we, in my opinion, have really fallen down on. And making our cataloging standards more readily available financially, and intellectually, and technologically to all catalogers. 

So I feel like it's just one is a community, I think that one is a little bit more difficult than others, but also just on the individual level. Number three-- acknowledging that we bring our biases to the workplace. That's something that we as catalogers we may not always recognize that we are biased. Obviously, in different ways. 

And so I think that we say, we strive to overcome personal institutional and societal prejudices in our work. I think just personally, I think that's difficult really for anyone to really think through their biases and their ideas, and then try to overcome that. So Beth, I'll let you speak. 

BETH: I do think that one of them that will be a challenge is number eight. That reads we insist on diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace. We promote education training equitable pay and Fair Work environment for everyone who catalogs so they can continue to support search and discovery. 

I think this is one as I mentioned before, that really takes not just an individual cataloger here. That takes working with your administration, that takes advocating for your department, and also yourself as an individual worker, and possibly for colleagues. I have an OK situation, but I see that my colleague is undervalued or not treated fairly in some way. 

So it really requires the community aspect of cataloging and libraries to work on those sorts of things. And that may include enfranchising HR with different policies. And so that could be in a large institution, especially quite complex, or in a very small one, quite complex depending. 

So I do think that we have called for things that are aspirations certainly, but not unattainable ones. And I think that's to some extent what a code of ethics should do-- should ask us to be better. 

SONYA: We actually, of all of them, that the one that we Beth discussed about stuffing surprised us the most. And we actually when we were reading comments to the draft, I think that was the one that was the most controversial. 

Those there were comments that it doesn't actually belong in the cataloging code of ethics. That it should be different in the different document. So what would be your response to that criticism. 

BETH: So as I was the liaison to the staffing and working conditions working group that we had. And I feel really strongly about this because we acknowledge in our introduction that every workplace is different. That will necessarily inform how people can interact with this document. But I also think in the previously mentioned strain of wanting to be better or wanting to aspire to certain standards of conduct. That I think people-- the environment in which people work is an ethical situation. 

If you are expected to do certain things, but not given the tools, or if you are treated differently than your coworkers for whatever reason. That's not an equitable situation. And that's not how we create fair workplaces. And that's not how we encourage all kinds of diversity. 

And we also discuss in the introduction and discussed a lot in the steering committee, that metadata becomes stronger that description of materials that access to materials become stronger when we have a more diverse and fairly paid workforce. We have people who are comfortable and able to do their work. And so in the service of providing better access to users, which is essentially our first point that diversity makes us stronger. 

MARLEE: And I was just wondering, if through the process of the multiple drafts, before getting to the final draft of the code of ethics document, hearing back from the community, did your own thinking change along the way in any of the areas that you were interested in? 

KAREN: I would say absolutely. And that was what was so fascinating and rewarding about this process, because we recognized early on the steering committee that we don't know everything. We needed community feedback, not just through the working groups, but from just the community-- the cataloging community at large to tell us their perspective on the values and the statements in the principles. 

So that we did not know everything. So absolutely, we learned a lot just by having once again, these diverse viewpoints point out not just like the wordsmithing, which there was a lot of that as well. But just in our overall thinking, our underlying thinking about some of these issues. It's just different from person to person, sometimes in workplace to workplace. 

So absolutely it was I think a learning experience for everyone. 

BETH: I would completely agree. And I think another thing that really helped this document to circle back to the international effort is that as Americans, we live in a little bit of a very large echo chamber sometimes. And having representatives from the UK and Canada was fantastic, because the Americans on the committee would say, well, we think this, and one of our British colleagues or our Canadian colleagues would be like well, but I think this example is actually makes it maybe we should rethink this a little bit. 

And it was fantastic to be challenged in that way to think through our principles, but also are working method and how he interacted with our working groups, and things like that. And I mean, the steering committee is a really wonderful group of people. And I think Karen and I have both really enjoyed working with them. 

But I think that also, in addition to having this international community commenting and thinking about what we were doing was an education for all of us and each of us on the steering committee. And I think if you read the first draft versus what we have as the final draft it's a far cry. It's pretty different. 

FRED: You're listening to Lost in the Stacks. And we'll be back with more from Beth Shoemaker and Karen Snow, co-chairs of the cataloging ethics steering committee on the left side of the hour. 

KIM STANLEY ROBINSON: Hi I'm Kim Stanley Robinson, science fiction writer and fan of the rambling wrecks of Georgia Tech. This is WREK. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

CHARLIE: Today's show is called the Cataloging code of ethics, and there's a U in that. And we have been talking to two co-chairs of an international ethics steering committee about how the cataloging community collaborated to create a code of ethics. The committee published the final draft of the cataloging code of ethics in January of this year. 

But ethics and cataloging is something that has interested our guest Beth Shoemaker since she was in graduate school. Leading to her article, no one can whistle a symphony, seeking a catalogers code of ethics. Published in knowledge organization in 2015. 

Beth wrote, "In our back offices, we have a great deal of power over who finds what. Or if anyone finds anything at all in our libraries. The power to code, describe, and classify information resources is a tremendous responsibility." She also cautioned us, that catalogs ability to in effect censor works through biased assignment of controlled vocabulary or classification is more egregious than the intentional removal of a text from the collection, whereas that is a decision met by multiple parties and interests within the library. 

A cataloger can censor a book with a few keystrokes, or lack thereof. But she did find hope in the collaborative work of the cataloging community. Writing that professional ethics are at root group ethics. Librarians are at root collaborators. 

This community of colleagues is the best fallback for questions of ethics. No one can whistle a symphony, but as a group, we can create an orchestra of thoughts and experiences that can define our ethical responses to challenges of our profession. 

Well, while we chew on that, let's file this set under B105.m4, BJ1589, and BF637S4. Fred, how many call numbers are in this set? 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

MARLEE: You just heard Pump It Up by Elvis Costello and the Attractions, and before that, Sweet Dreams Are Made Of This by the Eurythmics. Songs about realizing what's really important and emphasizing it. As performed by artists from London, England. 

WENDY: Welcome back to Lost in the Stacks. Today we're speaking with Beth Shoemaker, rare book librarian at Emory University's rose library. And with Karen Snow, associate professor and PhD program director in the School of Information studies at Dominican University. 

Beth and Karen are co-chairs of the "cataloguing" (with a "U") ethics steering committee. Which just released a cataloging code of ethics in January. 

MARLEE: Karen, as a Professor of Information Studies, how do you expect that having an International Code of ethics will inform how cataloging is taught in library school? 

KAREN: That's a great question. And this is something that I've been thinking a lot about myself lately, and just in my teaching, but also my research. Is how it's not like we've never discussed we've not taught ethics and cataloging work before, but it may just have been just a separate little segment of a cataloging question. 

Now we're talking about Mark, now we're talking about the standard of that standard. OK. Let's just talk about ethics for a little while, and then go back right to talking about these standards again, as if it's like a separate thing. In my opinion, it's not. 

So it's really this work with a cataloging ethics committee. And just in my research, I've come to realize that at least in my teaching I've tried to kind of infuse discussion of ethics more just throughout my courses. Just so that my students know Yeah, this is not something that's separate. You really have to be thinking about the ethical implications of everything you do. 

Even if you like accidentally put a typo in a word. That may affect access ultimately. It may be minor, but it still may affect access. So we really need to be thinking as we're going along with everything we do in cataloging. The possible ethical implications. I really am hoping to spread this code of ethics far and wide amongst my fellow cataloging educators so that they can also be incorporating these ideas and discussions in their courses as well. 

SONYA: So Beth, you are a practitioner. So you do practical cataloging every day. Did working on the document change the way you do cataloging? And in what way? 

BETH: Yes. So just for some background, I'm a special collections cataloger. That means I catalog everything from artist, books, to our collection has KKK materials and other things that are really difficult to handle. And already when I-- especially when I was cataloging something controversial or that was troubling to me personally, whether or not it was sort of troubling in the larger world, I always thought about how are people going to look for this. What can I do to increase access. How can I help people find this if they need it, if this is what their research might hinge on. 

But I think since we started working on specifically this document, I guess my checklist in my head has changed a little bit. Not even that it's terribly different, but it's a great deal more ordered. I also write policy for cataloging in my area. So it's really helped me think through how to provide guidance to anybody who might read our manual, other catalogs that work in the Department. 

And also how to discuss that with other catalogers. So if another cataloger encountered something, what's a productive way to talk about the difficulty they're encountering. And how we might solve it. Not just in this instance, but to think about how that might affect policy for our department and for catalogers in my area. 

So it's definitely given me a more cohesive approach to the work that we do . As opposed to sort of piecemeal-- let's solve this problem and then let's solve that problem. And I definitely see that difference in my work since the committee started working together. 

MARLEE: Well I guess I can ask a question as kind of a former cataloger, but now I do instruction and user outreach and so on. I'm interested to know how you think this all might affect things on my end. What's the user experience going to be? Or what is the public services or instruction librarian experience going to be once catalogers start using this code of ethics in their practice. It's kind of a heavy question. 

BETH: So it's a good question. It's a good question. I'll take a stab at it. I'll let Karen think for a minute. I know I can see the wheels turning. I think to be fair, many cataloger do many of these things as a matter of course in their work. 

We are by and large conscientious librarians, like many of our colleagues in other areas. And so for some institutions, I think this will not be so much to implement. But I think one of the things that we definitely hope for is thinking harder about how we provide access materials, how we label. So things like subject headings. 

How we create. Things like name authorities. So what the standardized names for authors and other kinds of creators are. And how those are constructed, and what kind of information we provide there. And I think also there's a strong bench for advocacy in the document. 

And I think certainly the better we can advocate for cataloging as a practice and within the ecosystem of a library, then we can get better feedback from our colleagues and incorporate things like that into our work. And so I think that might be some of the difference. Hopefully more diverse voices providing better access through more complete records through more considered records in some cases. But I do hope, as I mentioned, that advocacy will create a better ecosystem for the whole library to provide better services to our users. 

KAREN: And I'd like to second that, and also just kind of emphasize that this document reinforces this idea that we're in this together. Not only catalogers need to be mindful of the metadata that in our catalogs and how this affects access, and our user's ability to find things. We're in this together, and we need to communicate. 

So in order for us to really provide the best user experience that we can, we need to all work together as librarians. Not just catalogs and reference librarians et cetera. But as librarians in general. 

SONYA: I would like to ask you now that the document-- the final draft is out. What are the next steps for both the committee, but also for specific libraries, or specific catalogers who want to endorse this document? 

BETH: Sort of the next steps as far as the steering committee is concerned is that this document is final, but has not been endorsed by any-- not yet endorsed I should say, by any of our professional organizations. So one of the next things will happen is that we'll take it to ALA, our British colleagues will take it to CILIP. Their association, our Canadian colleague will take it to her association. 

So that hopefully those groups will endorse the document, which of course, gives it a much wider reach. And sort of makes it more accessible, not just on the steering committee's website, but also through those venues and on their official pages. 

We also hope to build a series of case studies that exemplify possible solutions to ethical issues that are addressed in the code. And so that's our next steps. Karen, do you want to briefly address that? 

KAREN: Yeah, so we don't want to just put this document out there, and just leave it. We do want to have what we consider to be more of the practical aspect of this, as Beth was saying, the case studies. So that actually Pose specific issues and give some background and then some possible ways to resolve those issues in an ethical manner. 

But tied to the specific statements of ethical principles. So we want to work with the cataloging community to come up with these case studies. So they have some guidance some concrete guidance. At least one way that they can approach ethical issues. So we'll just be over the next what-- months, years perhaps, just further outreach for getting the word out that this document's out there, and provide some once again, some more practical ways to apply the principles, the statements and the principles using case studies. 

FRED: File this set under HD60, BF449, BF 698.2 and BF 637.S4. Can you tell that an expert cataloger helped us with our call numbers this week? 

CREW: So many. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

SONYA: You just heard Four Strong Winds by Ian and Sylvia and before, Closer to the Heart by Rush. Songs about how changes in the world can affect changes in us as individuals. Performed by legendary artists from Canada. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

CHARLIE: Today's show is called the Cataloguing Code of Ethics. There's a U in cataloging, and there's Canadians all through the show. So I have a question for you all, the show team. If you could put together a committee, and write a code of ethics for some other activity in your life, personal or professional, what would it be? 

CHARLIE: I would like to get a group together to write the merge lane on the highway code of ethics. 

WENDY: So what pops in my head, I would really love this, is the leaf blower code of ethics. Because there's some really complicated ethical questions there. 

FRED: I would think about a code of ethics for just how far I need to go with my kids to get them to do their homework when they forget quote unquote to do their homework. 

MARLEE: I think I would have to put together a code of ethics for dealing with the situation where one person wants the window open, and the other person wants the window closed. 

SONYA: I think I'll join Fred's group. And if I have to start my own group, it's going to be teenagers in the house group, and what is allowed and not from an ethical perspective. 

FRED: I will definitely get together with you to write those policies. Can you tell it's been something that's on my mind lately? 

CHARLIE: I would love to discuss this more, but I have to go get my kids back on their Zoom classroom. So roll the credits. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

WENDY: Lost in the stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech library. Written and produced by Ameet Doshi, Amanda Pellerin, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, Marlee Givens, and Wendy Hagenmaier . 

SONYA: This show was edited and assembled by Charlie. And brought to you in part by the library collective and the social and professional network league of awesome librarians. Find out more at the library collective talk. 

MARLEE: Legal counsel and an antique mid-century maple 72 draw card catalog - (that just sounds wonderful) - were provided by the Burris intellectual property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. 

WENDY: Special Thanks to Beth and Karen for being on the show, as well as for their great music suggestions. To the ethics steering committee, for all of their work. And to Sonya, for coming back to Lost in the stack as a co-producer. And Thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening. 

MARLEE: You can find us online at Lostinthestacks.org. And you can subscribe to our podcast pretty much anywhere you get your audio fix. 

CHARLIE: Next week, we continue our COVID restriction schedule with a rerun, and a new show the week after that. 

FRED: It's time for our last song today. Catalogers are working hard to bring more ethical cataloging practices to librarianship. It's hard work, but worthwhile to draw up some ethical guidelines to those in the profession. So let's close with a song about guidance. This is Draw us Lines Tournament of Hearts by the Constantines. Right here on Lost in the Stacks. Have a great weekend, everybody. 

[MUSIC PLAYING]