All right, Welcome everyone to the seminar today, so it's my great pleasure to welcome Paul Garrett Moses to give our seminar. So Paul, I actually overlapped at Stanford. He was a post-doc when I was a graduate student there. Prior to Stanford, he did his PhD at the Technical University of Denmark, and then he did another postdoc at UC Santa Barbara. After that, he started working and how their top sue in 2012 as a research scientist where he actually hosted me for a short time during my PhD. So we were able to publish, that's a nice papers together. And since then he's moved up through the management of healthcare. Chop stone is now the the senior head of technology development for the green hydrogen there. And so he's going to tell us a lot about that today. Paul's background though is in computational chemistry and catalysis, and I'm not sure if this is the case, but I think Paul is probably the only person in senior management at a chemical company who has designed density functionals, written density functional theory code. So it's really impressive to me pause ability to really span from the extremely fundamental research up to the very applied work that he's done now. And I'm excited to hear his perspective on the field. My graduate. Thank you for the introduction. And I think I'm the only one who has been doing and, and, and functional. So of course. But what we're going to present today is indeed much more from the applied side and more from the sort of system side. And I'm going to give a very brief introduction to what kind of company is and why we, why we think this is interesting and important. And then show that for reducing CO2 emissions from what is typically called the Hatzor paid sectors such as steel, heavy duty, transportation, long haul flights. Then you really need to couple noble truths, T2, your production of chemicals and fuels. And I will then dive a little bit into one particular difficult sector to pay, which is the marine sector. And then from there on, a transition into a Charles's and high temperature Charles's particular. And I will try to make the case that that for large-scale industrial applications, this is a really good match between high temperature Charles's and the downstream synthesis process. And then when I'm hopefully convince you of that and we will be, we will finish up the presentation. But let's start with the first here, which is introduction to what kind of company at the top is 0. And we are a company that is spilled on science, our found pallets option itself. He that was part of the DNA that he wanted to do science to, to solve some of the big challenges in the world and maintain. Today, we have, for our sector, we have a quite high investment of our annual revenue, 8%. It goes into on D. Here we also highlight, I mean, I don't know how meaningful and H index is general for comparing quality and an impact. But it's, it's, I will use index and for a company it's a good ancient texts. I'm sure other people in the, in the, in the oddest have this ancient personally. But we, we, we accompany and we do, we don't have sort of individual research groups of course. But we do actually have a wide range of partnership with universities. We of course, have a lot of patents, but we also do participate actively in the academic world co-publishing paper's title. And then a Suo Sciences you can say one leg but, but we hope we do. And I want you to always have done is to, to really solve some of the big challenges in the world. And of course, the chancellor changed over time. If you go back to the founding of the company, big worry was could we feed all the people growing population in the world? So a lot of activities and ammonia for fertilizer. And then in the eighties started to look at Mission Control removing sulfur oxides, expanding that in the 90s. And what we're doing today is he's being very active in technologies and products that can help in Queens and tradition. And that is what we're going to talk about today. Because if one looks at, at, at sort of the total CO2 emissions in the world. Paris, approximately 20 percent of the CO2 emissions that are very difficult to, to directly electrify and thereby reducing CO2 emissions. You have to do something else. And here you see. I've sectors like iron, steel have the TI chemical, petrochemical industry, have cement, you have aviation and shipping. And for these kinds of sectors, it's, it's, it's critical you have to do something different than just, just do direct electrification. You have to couple the renewable electricity generation to your production or the processes in these sectors. And of course, solutions for each of these sectors is a whole presentation. So we will just touch upon some of this. A different way of looking at this is it's taking sort of thing at a very, very simple analysis that we did back in 2017. And we were running a project called it internally fossil free future. So we're just looking at a, what, what in the world we're not using fossil resources. What, what would the concerto such a world look like? And what are the possible solutions? And to get an overview of that, we made some assumptions. And here we just looked at the, you can look up the energy consumption of the entire world. And then we made some, some broad assumptions about what you can directly electrified, electrified, anything directly that you couldn't assume that you have renewable trustee. But then you're left with some things that you cannot directly electrophile. So if you look at coal use, you, you, you have a lot of coal used in industry where you cannot use electricity directly because you need the high intensity heated you can get from coal. Coal is also used for some on energy feedstock. You have oil again. It has to be used in industry where it's difficult to edify. In this I can 17, we made some assumption about transportation. I think they are still true for for all shipping and aviation while, while actually maybe because and development and battery technologies, a larger part of sort of long all on-road transportation. You can maybe to actually rectify that directly. But you can do that. You end up with something that you cannot directly electrophile. And the same goes for natural gas. But in principle, you can, you can directly electrify almost 80 percent of everything, so you're left with 20 percent. That is really difficult to do something about that, more or less translating. That's why you are more or less end up with the same in terms of CO2, which what we saw on the previous slide. So, so for these sectors, you see here you have to do something different and, and, and, uh, for this, here I will focus on electrification. There's also a big role to play in and careful use of, of biomass, which waste streams or biomass directly for making some of these, for solving some of these problems. But here we will focus on electrification. And this. I mean, it says topsoil solution, but of course, other companies can also solve it like this. Maybe make stops a unique is that we actually have a very broad portfolio of these. So what you see on the slide is that on the left, you have, have feedstocks such as renewable biomass feedstock, you have natural gas. What happens today is that you take natural gas from this natural gas. You do you convert into the chemicals and fuels that you need for the utilization you see on the right, which is transportation, chemicals, fertilizer on heavy industry. But we cannot do that in the future. The assumption that we want to do something about climate change. So you have to use renewable electricity or biomass. And if you use a renewal electricity, you the most directly forward solution is 2. To take this from the electricity, use it to generate hydrogen through trousers and then use that and Charles's to generate either chemicals or use hydrant directly or you make fuels. And a common term used for this. And I will also use later in the slides. This is power two x. I don't know how common it is in the US. But essentially it's just an umbrella explanation for checking power and make x whatever you like from that. And, and the good thing about this is that the synthesis technologies you see on the right, some of that needs to be modified, but they have been developed. The basic technology of this has been developed over many, many years. But using natural gas as a feedstock. So if we take one of these hearts obeyed sectors, we, I'm going to take a sector which is close to sort of Denmark. Denmark is essentially surrounded by a lot of water. We have a history of having a big shipping industry. So as an industry in Denmark, shipping, it's actually very, it's not visible because the boats out on the water, but it's a big part of the industry sector. And the MAC and one of the leading shipping companies in the world must make Nebula. It's a Danish company and they have initiated. And the fourth, carbon shipping, wherever we are members and also other shipping company Some members and they look at how what the center does is to identify a path forward to enable 0, enables your carbon shipping, shipping industry no CO2 emissions. And what you see on this slide here is is sort of historically to the left you see the historic CO2 emissions from, from the marine sector. So a little bit above one gigaton of CO2. So which corresponds to something like almost 2% of the of total global CO2 emissions. And then you have different scenarios. So you have something where you don't do anything, which is quite unrealistic scenario. But then you also have so the path that, that, that, that the shipping industry is on now that's equity lunch, we still see an improved or not improved to C depends. You see an increased CO2 emission. While you can see your very, very far away from the targets you need to be on. If, if you, you want to keep global warming between definitely want to 15 degrees where your attributes hero at 2050 or even a two degree target. So an a, that something needs to happen in the shipping industry. And even though you could say there are some goals and 25th that needs to be met. That because of the lifetime of the fleets, you, you have to make changes today to impact the CO2 emissions. 20 years downloaded, 30 years down. So it's prudent to do something now and that is what part of the shipping industry is doing. You could say there's also some legislation globally indifferent. Both the international arena organizations in you and in the maritime sector, such where there are different goals. But what is unique about some of these players that are in this zero-carbon shipping. A sender is that they have set goals are much more ambitious than the goals of the events in the International Maritime Organization. And if one looks at a couple of key players than a which represent 80% of global shipping. Then see that they actually have committed to be, have zero-carbon shipping in 2050. And this means that they own 50% of total global fleet. So it's a massive change in infrastructure and they need to identify what, what kinda fuels can use. Assuming that a, the good that this industry does to the world is that it enables a global economy. It means that we as a total have a better life. And, and they, and then of course you can think of all kinds of fuels. And this is an attempt to illustrate that. So what do you see on the left this that electrification such as batteries and fuel cells, mainly a solution for, for sort of coastal shipping, short distance shipping. So for instance, in Denmark, which you want to travel to Sweden, which is 200 kilometres away, there's an electrified ferry running on batteries, so you could solve that kind of issues, but not long distance shipping. Long distance shipping, you need a liquid fuel in some way, and then you have actually a whole slew of things you can choose in-between. They can be bio-based or they can be they can be made by X are using renewable trustee. Or they could be made by taking fossil resources and combine with carbon capture and sequestration, what is sometimes called the Blue Blue Technologies. And they all have different pros and cons. And what this zero-carbon shipping center tosses two, to make scenarios and look at technology options to identify what are the best options out of these. And and what, what is common for these is that that had a pet you, that the majority of them require that we have hydrogen which you then use to make the issue. So either you have between hydrogen and CO2 source and you produce, so that's you chew through various chemicals that you can use as fuels. Or you reduce nitrogen to make ammonia, which you can also use as fuels. But there's reasons why, Why challenging and this is in the template at plotting this. So what you see on this slide here is an illustration that the different fuels are different maturity levels. And they also have different challenges in the US as fuels and shipping. So the good thing about shipping compared to aviation is the shipping engines she abandons. I actually quite versatile. They can basically burn whatever. But you still have to do things with the safety, fuel storage. How you live with the fuel to the to the engine, how you do. The after treatment systems and of course also regulations around the fuels that you're using. So what you see is that there's a host of possible options. The ones where you do something to the blue hydrogen, you could say, essentially, it's known how to do this today. But there's a lot of challenges in applying liquefied hydrogen. For instance, that you basically indigence is not reduced too much juice deficiency. There's a lot of safety issues. So what is present in the main targets in the shipping center is methanol and ammonia. Some players still want to explore methane. Mass themselves have publicly said that they are not conscious of methane because of me think slip issue. So you cannot have, you really have to have several myths and slip on this. Otherwise you're just getting the same problem that you're trying to get around by having everything which is a powerful greenhouse gas emitted from your ships. So okay. I have to I'm sorry, I have to go and stop the alarm, otherwise, the capital comes to thirty-seconds break. I'll take this opportunity to remind folks if you do have any questions for Paul, please put those into the Q&A panel. I see a few people have asked already and then at the end of the presentation, I will ask no. Okay. So we stopped the alarm so we will not be interrupted by the gut. I think that's a good thing. Okay, so so the, the main candidates here, when you make them from from power to excess methanol, ammonia and for some methane. In most cases, sort of bioderived fuels are ruled out because the shipping industry believe that these will go primarily to the aviation industry which has where they have some benefits and then of course cost. So why are we not doing it? We're not doing it because making synthetic fuels is more expensive than having fuels directly from, from fossil resources. And the cost, depending on watch fuel you're looking at is something between two to eight times as high. And fuel cost is actually a significant part of the total cost of ownership. And so especially for, for shipping, which is nine, that is 20 to 30. And, and there's essentially no use of alternative fuels today. And there's also a bottleneck in the fact that you need infrastructure for new fuels. And in this presentation here, I will dive a little bit more into ammonia. Because ammonia, as you can see, actually turns out to be of these relative expensive fuels is still on the cheap NDA fuels. And it has the benefit that you do not need a carbon source. So you only need air and water, electricity. And and, and of course there are some of the main channel with ammonia would be that the safety around ammonia needs to be needs to be stricter than the safety around ethanol. But, but today actually ammonia is shipped. There is a global industry for moving ammonia around. And it's, it's an excellent fuel in ship engines and that's been proven to be done. So we will, we will focus a little bit more ammonia for the rest of the talk. Okay, So in this cost part here, of course you may ask yourself, well, what is the major cost driver? And, and and, and then we go back to the spouse works. And the key enabling technology house for extra set of fossils, charles, this is where you take water and you use that water to create a hydrogen molecules which you then use to produce or the nitrogen to make it fuels. And the major capital cost and efficiency losses IN this, in Charleston technology. So it's, it's and, and they tell us it's not yours. It's also the least mature technology. So this is where there is a big need for, for both industrialization and innovation and basic research to, to bring this to church, you can really play a key role that it needs to play. And if we look at, at the charges, I'm not going to go through an entire sort of cost analysis. There are some great research papers and reports out there that you can look at. What this is. Just me making a very simple, simple small you can make of the cost of electricity, which actually captures, I would say 80 percent of any of these studies you can read. Because it turns out that for, for, that the major cost of creating hydrogen from it, from water, electricity is the electricity cost. And the, and assuming that, that industrialization of falses succeeds, then the capital cost will be something like 20 percent. So if you want. Real cost, you have to add 20 percent to what you see on the slide. Because what you see is just the cost of hydrogen. If the only thing you have to pay, what's electricity, you're getting your plan for free year and then showing this as a function of, of electricity costs for different efficiencies and end in the US. So in the US you would have electricity cost maybe somewhere around sharpens your three US dollars per kilowatt hour. It would in some sense be silly to, to, to use US electricity because it's mainly made from, from actual gas. So, so of course you need electricity, that is, that comes from renewable sources, but In good, in areas with good or excellent renewable electricity sources. And then you are in the range between something that's your fonts, your children, 0.6 Uruguay in this range down showing on the x-axis here. And then the different lines are not chosen completely randomly. So you have, the blue line would be if you went out and bought the most mature technology at scale, which is alcohol, Charleston Shoe. Then you're using a five kilowatt hours per meter of hygiene reproduce. And then you can essentially see what you're hiking costs would be at minimum, it will be higher, but this is the minimum cost. And you can also then look what, what should the cost be, for instance, to be on par with if you made hydrogen from, from methane. And if you're in the US than meet an extremely cheap, actually I think maybe hygiene constant and the US would be below one US dollar per kilogram. But you'll also see here the deficiency really matters, especially when you have sort of electricity cost in the medium range. So for instance, Denmark was actually has excellent resources. You have electricity cost around 0.05. And then that stage you really benefit from increasing the efficiency. So you can either improve efficiency of alkaline. 4.5 would be as there is some goals for alkaline efficiency. But you can also change technology tool to high temperature Charles's, which is the most efficient for technology out there. And then depending on if you have heat and if you have pin can use excess heat as an import. If you have steam as a source or you use water, you actually have efficiencies that allow you to save something on the order of a dollar per gram of hydrogen, which has significant savings. So one takeaway from this, this slide here would be that, yes, you can be on par with hydrogen from natural gas. It's, it's quite a challenge. But assuming you cannot, inefficiency really matters for the, for the hydrogen cost. Did you get out of your actual awesome? So let's dive into two solid oxide falses. Because already in the previous slide hinted that this is, this is a highly efficient like foster technology. It also turns out it's quite a flexible technology. You can, you can, you can make different products. Such a different project with hydrogen carbon monoxide. So if you feed these electrolytes us with steam, you get hydrogen on one side, an oxygen on the other side. If you feed it with pure Sue tool, you get carbon monoxide and oxygen. And then if you feed a combination, you know, surprise, get a combination of hydrogen and CO. And so this means that you can, you can, you can use these technology for, for making synthesis gas. For instance, if you wanted to produce chemicals where it's beneficial have a synthesis gas. Or you can also create a pure hydrogen if that's what you need. And what lies at the heart of, of, of high temperature Charles's is an oxygen conducting membrane. So it's a ceramic membrane which allow the conduction of oxygen ion, but only reasonable transfer rates at high temperature. So that is why you have, that is one reason why you have the high temperature. And then depending on your feet, for instance, CO2 on one side and you rip away the oxygen ions and you create oxygen on the other side and CEO here. And PaaS, if it's water than you rip away the oxygen atom in water and you create oxygen here and hydrogen here. And, and the, the d. So, so why are we not using a high temperature Charles's today? And the reason is that this is the least mature of the EHR technologies that, that exists today. So you have alkaline that process and you have proton exchange membrane and Charles's while that, and then you have estrus, she has the least mature. So SOC has had a very big research community and also a lot of industrial players as applications in fuel cells through the shaping activities in the late zeros, early tense. And they didn't manage to really find a market where you could compete with with the gas turbines. And then of course it got out-competed by pi if photovoltaics and, and, and, and wind. But at the heart of this technology lies these, these Membranes. And it's actually quite a complicated engineered structure where you have different functions. You have an electrode where you evolve the oxygen. You have the membrane here in the middle, which allows you to separate away the oxygen ions. And then you have a fuel electrode on this side where you, where you evolve the hydrogen. And what you see in these pictures from this review here written by some of my colleagues and collaborators, than what you see is essentially that there has been immense improvements in, in, in, in, in lifetime and performance of these systems over the last 10, 15 years. And and, and so choice, it is at a point brand association officer, she makes sense. And this efficiency of the high temperature Charles's technology, it lies essentially the harder that lies in a thermodynamic argument which I will try to, to make here. So you have this, this cell. The cell requires high temperatures so that you can have the oxygen ions moving through the flight. But the other benefit of this of, of temperature, you need to look at this thermodynamic diagram here. So what you see on this diagram is that you have temperature on the x-axis. On the y-axis, you have two different ways of writing your energy demand. So in kilojoules per mole here and a bulge or mode over here. And what you see is that the minimum interested manager have that extra change in free energy, that is the blue curve. And then you have your total energy demand. So this just shows that as an endothermic process to, to, to do this. And you see that enthalpy is essentially independent of temperature. At least. If that's a little depends of course, but compared to delta G is a constant. And then you can utilize the fact that this difference between your enthalpy, delta G becomes larger as you go up in temperature. And this means if you run your, your electrolytes are thermoneutral point that, that is, by definition, the point where you are, you are providing the voltages that correspond exactly to your, your free energy, then you have, you can, you can, you can actually have quite a large heat demand and you can fight that heat to your, your, if you're running an old, your losses provide exactly the heat that is needed to provide the heat for the endothermic reaction. And then, and this means that you are running your stack at a point where you have a 100 percent efficiency. So on a stack level you're 100 percent efficient and you cannot do that in low temperature Charles's. Because then the, the, the, the, the, the potential is not enough to overcome just the opportunity you have for your, your chemical reaction. So you always running low temperature, Charles's above the neutral point. So you are at the state level not a 100 percent efficient. So this is, this is the thermodynamic argument why? This is the most efficient technology. And since the a 100 percent efficient it also difficult to, of course, then of course, the high temperature also keeps your benefit and kinetics. And this is an illustration of that. It's, it's, it's taken from the same review as previously. And you just see the three different trials of technologies. Again with condensed here on the bottom and voltage on the, on, on the y-axis. And you can say the PEDOT kinetics just gives you a lower slope. So show because she had high temperature, have better efficiency. This means that essentially you can run quite high condensed cities, while for instance, that alkyne has the worst more sluggish kinetics because you don't have this. You don't have a membrane. You have, in this case, typically a cell phone dive right in. So you get, you have a slope here and you run, maybe condenses at SharePoint for while is you can say superior in terms of content. And then you have sushi which trivially run, we run our set at 0.8. So I saw somewhere in-between alkaline and, um, and then this slide is essentially true, sort of illustrate a common misunderstanding, which is that, okay, so you need 750 degrees C. How can that be efficient, efficient than the way? And now you of course, from a chemical engineering department. So the way you make it efficient is that you do heat integration of your system. Soap, maybe not so special price, but, but this is, this is a complicated way of saying that. So essentially what you put in to low temperature Charles's is interested in water. What you get out is hydrogen and some low temperature heat. And then you have some energy consumption depending on a little bit on what system you choose. Then high temperature. If you're not doing heat integration, you, you provide liquid water, electricity, and what comes out the scan hydrogen heat. So exactly the same thing. You use less electricity because the stack is more efficient. And what you then can do because you have these high temperatures is that you can provide steam. So you can provide steam at the, at the at. At something like a hundred and sixty two hundred BC is not import exactly what's important is that it steam and then you save the operation heat of, of, of, of water. Of course. I mean, there's no free lunch. You pay that somewhere else. But the point is that in many downstream chemical synthesis processes, those are exothermic so they generate heat. And then you buy heat integration, you can save, it's actually directly, it's a real, something you say for real, it's not it's not a free lunch because otherwise you would have to plant the seed, for instance. So essentially you can say the better efficiency off of high temperature Charles's than two-thirds this from the stack efficiency. And 1 third is for your potential of doing each expression. And then the final, a key, a key performance indicator for foil trouser technologies when you integrate them with renewable sources, can you do, can you do load following? And, and, and this is not an exhaustive study, but this is, this is true stacks following when profile from a Danish Island for him for 2 thousand hours. And, and, and the conclusion on this study is that you, you have the activation because you had the same deactivation as if you did not have those fallen so low following doesn't accelerate deactivation. Of course, I've been at a disadvantage for high-temperature choices that you need to keep your system what it cannot do the following, if you need to heat and cool from room temperature is 75 degrees C. And this slide here is just, again from a review from last year, but it's just illustrating that that it is this receipt acknowledge as such, it's maturing not just from tortious activities, but for many different activities. Both companies and from academic institutions that you're really seeing. Increased stack lifetime, decreased the deactivation speeds, and also a logic tuition demonstration plants. So before green hydrogen and climate was, was, which is very, very big on the agenda, especially in Europe. And because of corona, I lost a little bit the feeling of where the US is, but it seems like it's also picking up in the US and the US legislation. So before that was, was important than we are. And actually our current commercial product is making carbon monoxide on-site using high temperature Charles's. So in this case, you take CO2 and you makes you very simply put is like this. So you write this u to u, gets some CO2 in wrist. Co and CO2, do some gas purification and then you can provide SEO and various purchase and a plan. And these plants actually sold to customer in the US, in Ohio. And what you see here is just what such a plant looks like. So it's a, it's a containerized, very, very small plant compared to what normally cells. And the Charles is actually the smallest parts. So that's a lot of engineering around providing this product that has nothing really to do with process, but it has to do with a lot of process engineering and, and separations. Just go little bit fast with this. The heart of this solution is, is it's actually our, our fuel cell activities. We had a daughter company and we spend a lot of money on this. Something like 250 million dollars. An adequate product in the end, but no market. That's a typical story of course. But what we did then was to repurpose this for this as you chew market. And, and, and I would say the technology we are going to launch for, for water choices has a completely different footprint than this and it's much more scalable than the solution that was made for fulfills the market. But it is a, It's a good enough solution for the small-scale technologies and that is why this is the stack we're using. So this is 12 by 12 by 12 centimeters, so extremely dense. And you see all the 75 repeat units here in the stack. And for those of you, I think about the, the thermodynamics of CO2. If you have the same efficiency arguments for your statics, modest true that the thermodynamics is almost the same. So you can still do this trick with their thermoneutral point. And if you compare to, to low temperature CO2 to show processes, then this is a this is a review that's a few years old, but and I I'm sorry if I missed major breakthroughs, but I don't think that's major breakthrough. So what you see in long-term sexual choices that you have, you have a relatively low Faraday efficiency. You have a hard time gaining some industrial relevant current densities. So if we just focus here on the right, this is the actress that actually goes into making CO1, but she has cell and stack level as we see. And what you see are various examples of low temperature CO2 to show on single cell. So energy consumption is important and differences like that means that if you need a product and At least for now, high-temperature charges, the most mature technology for this. Just checking time. So of course, one of the key challenges for four items for Charles has spent a lifetime, you're working at 75 degrees. And what we show here is some think we made public in terms of lifetime, but if she has actually two different stacks, it it looks like one, but it is two stacks and you see that you have, you do have a deactivation over time. And then these circles that you see is that these are thermal cycles. And what you want to see is what you see here that you do not have a thermal cycle and then deactivation explodes. So this means that it's possible to have a tax system that is, that is resilient against thermal cycles. And then this has written form was two years. And we just stopped and run here because we wanted to study the deactivation phenomenon to improve this even further. So in summary, I mean, we actually have a niche market for, for CO2 to show. But of course the sniper will really, it's not doing anything against climate change. So the last point I want to make is just that high temperature Charles's is really a good fit for industry use. And we're going back to ammonia as an example of that. So let's say you want to make ammonia and you do this with the alkaline, it falses you use something like ten megawatt hours per ton of ammonia. If you, if you do the same with, with the, with the, with the high temperature Charles's. You can do that in different configurations, either exactly the same way as you to connect clauses are in a way where you, where you substitute away the air separation unit, then you're using 25 percent less heat. Because here you can really do heat integration. So you can have heat from the ammonia process that you use to create the steam. So, so this is one that's an optimal use case for item for Charles's. And this is way of plotting the same. So essentially conventional standalone ammonia plants. If you build a new one day, extremely energy-efficient, you, who are we and our competitor has spent 50 years on, on making these efficient. And they beat, you can say alkaline paste the ammonia plants by a lot in terms of efficiency. This is also why we're not building alkaline base ammonia plants, which, which was built 56 years ago. Actually, I have one colleague who has stopped APA alkaline that phosphorus-based ammonia plant. What you see here is also that majority of the energy actually goes into effect size. Little bit of energy goes into the air separation, a little bit into the loop, and then a little bit for the rest of the utilities. If you do the same with Esri C can see that for those you who do scientists, there's a difference here. Why is that? Why are we using more energy here for the Hubble partially, but that's actually because in the, in the SOC version the compressors are run using electricity directly to run them. While over here, because we use the steam for the electrolyzer. While over here the compressor soft airbrush groups are run by the steam. So you how to do these kind of process optimization. So that's actually a lot of interesting chemical engineering in optimizing this. And then if you really want to do some exciting chemical nearing, what you can do is that you can utilize this fact that you have an air separation membrane and you combine as we see with catalytic oxidation to get rid of your air separation unit, which may be beneficial if you want to make very small ammonia plants, which could be a potential market and need a solution in the future. Then, then then you have SHE and you have a cleanup station and you feed that unsold, you have the right synthesis gas for your whole Bosch group. And what this actually looks like in real life, it looks like this. So this is based on our, our, you can say, small-scale SI units. So what you have here is, is something on the order of 30 kilowatts of, of electrons here and 30 kilowatts of electrons here. And then you have a clinic burning in between. And this is just to illustrate it, we have done a lot of work, not only an ammonia, but also for other downstream instance combined with electrolysis. So with that, I think I have used my time. And I've tried to make a couple of points. First of all, for this heartbeat sectors, there's there's no essentially no way around being able to connect renewable trustee with how we make chemicals and fuels. And if you want to do that, then causes really a key enabler. It's very difficult to imagine an edge, an edge position where you not do not succeed in having low cost and high efficient technology and fun for now, at least the high temperature Charles's is really the efficiency. And, and especially when you can combine, we can do these system integration. Then you will get the full benefit. And just to illustrate that this is not just the, there's actually a market pull for this. This is one project from last year where topsoil is providing the ammonia synthesis. Whoops. Actually the largest ammonia plant in the world, but electrified. We also have a project coming up. What we do with this pedestrian see, slightly smaller. So a 100 megawatt, So actually a lot smaller than this. But if you one last time we sum up the total power two x planned projects in the world, it was 300 gigawatt. So of course, not all of them will become reality, but some of them will. So, so I would say we have changed our view on what the world would look like when we did our strategy work a couple of years back. We thought that this change in hydrogen and politics come in the late 20s, early 30s, but it is coming in the middle of the 20th. So really a big, big change in the chemical industry. And really fun time to be an engineer and scientist. Lots of important things to solve. So thanks. Awesome. Thank you very much Paul. I appreciate this is a super interesting so you do have questions from the audience. So the first one comes from Professor Matthew Ralph who asked if the energy density of methanol is high enough for shipping compared to current diesel fuels? Or would you need to modify the amount of fuel that's actually stored on board to go to. The evidence has approximately half of the fuels you yesterday, so you need you will have to waste more space on fuel storage. It's almost the same form on yes. Oh. And then I actually had a related question with ammonia as the fuel. You're burning the ammonia, you worry at all about NOX emissions. That's also a potent greenhouse gas or do you have to have, do you use the same kind of SCR technology that's used in automotive? Tell us is to get rid of that. Yes. So yes, so so definitely NOX emissions, It's a challenge when you use ammonia as a fuel. You can say you get rid of a problem that you have if you use fuels from, from either biomass or from, especially from fossil resources. But you have today have systems to get rid of sulfur emissions. You don't need to do that if you have ammonia, of course, but you need to have an SCR system. So socialistic selected political doctrine system. And these IT systems that has been proven on pilot scale in, in, in, in, in the marine industry. So it's not exactly the same system as such. You use in in in in heavy-duty trucking, heavy-duty trucking you you you typically use a combination of of of satellite systems, number Data Systems or maybe just Satellite Systems folk for the way these engine work it, it will be up an HBase, the SCR system and most likely, which is good because it's cheaper than unless you like the system. But buddy, just like there is a mature after treatment system that one can use. This if ammonia is enormous as the choice of fuel of choice. Thanks. The next question comes from Professor Karsten Sievers who's interested and you talked a lot about scale up these technologies. He's interested in scaling down. Would it be possible to scale down the CO2 electrolysis and purification of CO to the point that you can safely supply labs. The CEO on-demand. A fault for high temperature Charles's. I think it will be very, very difficult because you have these it it it That's one of the defendant back. I don't know if it's a bad thing, but but having very low footprint of items or Charles's difficult because you have to true and these high-temperature systems, while for you can make more complex system. If you go to low temperature systems, you'll still have the separations of them. So, so if you want the very pure CO and no hydrogen, that, that will be a challenge if you use a low temperature catalysts, for instance, joy, joy, I'm not sure that really solves your problem either, but I'm definitely here. We benefit from the fact that you can do only gets your product. And for the small system actually separating CEO from CO2 is less costly than if you had a hydrogen component. But no, I don't. I, I give them, I cannot solve your problem in the lab. You need to have bottles. We also have bottles also for OLAP. So that's how this thanks. I guess another question from Matthew rapidly ask why not use synthetic hydrocarbons? I guess in the shipping industry where which would not have problems with sulfur and will be dropped and replacements for both onboard and in distribution infrastructure. Yeah. That's that's a good point. I think part of it isn't the the cost analysis. And then you end up with methanol. So they don't have that here. Okay. But, but the point is that it's in some of the reports from this carbon is carbon shipping center, but the methanol then ends up as a better choice than having more energy dense fuels. So short, but definitely having a synthetic fuels, then you also don't have to solve a problem and still maybe need to do some of the treatment. But it's a very clean fuel. But then you end up with ethanol. And then you have this drawback of the, of the, that you need a carbon source. That's one of the reasons why I would say mask is they have they actually ordered the ships that are dual fuel so they can run a normal fuel and on methanol. But one of the reasons is that the methanol is also widely present. You have methanol, almost all ports have ammonia at some point, but not at all ports sold. So that's methanol is more accessible than ammonia. So the problem with Fisher tropes, synthetic gasoline would be just the cost basically. Yes. Yeah. Alright, and then I had another question. So that is really exciting stuff on the high temperature electrolysis. What would you say is the limiting factor right now I'm used to low temperature where everybody talks about the catalysis. It seems like the membranes are actually the thing that's doing all the work here are the catalysts still a problem? It's that, okay. That's, of course, you have to narrow it down. It's the, it's the transport properties of the membrane. So not the kinetics, but it's also sort of penance, but the rates of transport of fuel, your ions, two from your actual face fool your membranes. That is one limiting factor. And then I would say the other limiting factors, actually a lot of material processing. So you need to be able to produce these cells at industrial schedule, high-quality sort. So a lot of what we do with its related True, True, True industrial processing of these kind of materials. So on the fundamental research side, it's more on the transport properties of the membrane and then your guest data. Sql scale up is a big problem too. Yeah, But that okay, so fundamental research questions would be, of course, improve the transform properties of your, your membrane, which leads to energy losses. So and which of course you can use, but you need to run at a higher temperature. On these high temperatures, they induce different deactivation phenomena. So then there's also different deactivation phenomena related to costing of your material. Mainly costing of material actually, where I would say they I don't think that's agreement on what exactly to these efforts driven by potential law, by, by the chemical reactions or by just the thermal processes. So, so there's a lot of them actually total atomic scale research that question, sell them up and solve in this space. Seem very interesting. All right, Are there any other questions from the audience? Now, we just got one more come in here from the Ralph again who asked if electricity becomes very cheap, inefficiency no longer seems as important as capital cost. So when the higher current density of the assembly see technology and lack of expensive materials make it attractive. And so, so, okay, so it's, it's very likely there will be some markets where high efficiency doesn't matter. And in those markets, It's, it's you, you would opt for system with little capsule cost and annoy, not as high efficiency. So that's definitely a space where President alkaline, this is a very strong contender. And the alkaline, I will show you the other benefit that you actually get better efficiency if you're a top load. So there are markets where alkaline, this has some benefits because of this. Hello. Thanks. Alright. Got time for one more question. If not, then I think we can probably conclude things. Johnny, Are there any other logistical announcements here? I know that for me it will save or next week or in person. All right. Sounds good. And thanks again for Paul for staying up late and giving us this this very nice seminar was very interesting relationship. Yeah, Great to see you again. Yeah. Yeah.