This is a living history interview with Westlake Paxton, senior class of 1946 conducted by Maryland's summers on May the second the year 2014. 

The subject of his interview today is his life in general, his experiences, Georgia Tech, and we're at his home in Jacksonville Beach, Florida. Mr. Paxton and I may call you West. You told me, Please do you so much for letting us come here. It's kind of an unusual day in sunny Florida because it's writing today. I'm very unusual and not very, not very warm either. Effect is kinda nice. I don't buy the rain one is soft like that. It's a pleasure to be here and to meet you and we're anxious to hear your story. 

So we're going to start at the beginning and I want to know where you were born and when. Alright. I was born in Chester, Pennsylvania in December of 1923. 

What were your parents doing there? 

Why were you born in Chester? 

My father worked for the sun oil company and Marcus hook and my mother was from Norwood, Pennsylvania. What was your father from? 

My father was from Chester, Pennsylvania. Okay. 

So there was home place? 

That is correct. We'll use the firstborn in your family. I was the only child in that family. Were that creates my spoil. The heir apparent. Very true. 

What you said Daddy worked for some oil company. What did he do? 

Dad was an accountant and that is the reason that we move to Jacksonville in 1925. 

So he got he was transferred by the company, Sun oil company, to put the first oil wharf in the St. Johns River? 

Oh my god, or the sun oil company. That's why Wesley ended up in Jacksonville at an early age. 

So do you remember you couldn't possibly remember anything about Chester, Pennsylvania, right? 

Very little thing you could remember it got removed? 

I do remember the name of the hospital. I think. No, I don't. Maybe somebody told you that. Yeah. It's one of those things you can look up time ago. Yeah. 

Now, let's talk a little bit about your dad. 

First of all, you won't remember him from that time, but what about his parents? 

Did they live in Chester, Pennsylvania? 

They lived in Chester, Pennsylvania. My grandmother and my grandfather. And my grandfather's name was Frank and he was a clerk of the court than Chester, Pennsylvania. 

And what did you call him? 

Did you did you get to see them? 

I remember them slightly because I was a teenager at the last time, maybe 1213 years old. 

But over your growing up time, did your parents go back to visit from time to time or did they come though? 

That did not occur. My mother and father had a little marital problem and they were divorced when I was 12-years-old. 

So after that, you never saw I never I never saw my dad but one time after that. Wow. 

So what do you remember of him? 

Well, he was a sort of an athletic type person. He was a very nice man. He was nice to me. Teach you how to fish or to know, oh, we didn't do any of that. It was not a hands-on. Know, he wasn't hands-on and he and he wasn't the I don't remember him being around very much. I do remember living in Toledo, Ohio when I was about 12 years. The company transferred him to go Ohio. And I do remember living there for a year. And then they were divorced. And my dad my mom and I went to Norway to stay with her parents for a year. 

Well, let's talk still about your dad's parents. 

But what did you call them? 

Did you have nicknames for them or would they just write? 

No, not really. I didn't really spend a lot of time with it. You never really gotten to know them at all. 

So we might as well say you didn't have grandparents? 

Grandparents, and then my mother I had grandparents. About your mother. What was your mother like? 

My mother was a Living Doll. She was a very gentle person. And of course, after the divorce, I was her project. 

The project was a project and we came back to Jacksonville, lived in the house that we had prior to the marital problems, and mother went to work. 

Oh, what did she go to work? 

And she worked as a salesperson for ladies dress shop downtown Jacksonville. And we lived over in the Riverside area of Jacksonville. And I would meet her when she came off the street car at 530 every day. You are waiting for you. When you got home from school? 

There was no one there then? 

No. That is correct. 

So your what we call the latch key. Let's stop for a minute now and go back. You don't remember much of Chester, Pennsylvania? 

No, I don't. 

What's your earliest memory of moving to Jacksonville when you think about that, was that only one house you ever lived in in Jacksonville? 

I think. Yes, that is true. We had the one house, Myra street. 

The my recollection of Jacksonville really starts when mom moved back and now junior high school when I got to find out where you went to elementary school as well, it's right around the corner in the Jacksonville area. Do you remember starting school? 

Yes, I remember school. 

Did you go first grade or did you have a kindergarten? 

I went to kindergarten and episcopal Kim, the garden private school that was run by a Mrs. CISC. I remember her name. Yeah, that is the good shepherd Episcopal Church. That was good. That was private school because the public school day, That is correct. Okay. 

So that was because you were an only child that was an opportunity for you to meet a lot of other children? 

Yes, it was. And you remember going? 

Yes, I do. Did you walk? 

Walk several blocks so you could do that then? 

Okay. Did you live in a neighborhood that had other children? 

Yes. 

The neighborhood in Jacksonville, I don't know if it really had a name then, but it had a junior high school named John gory, which was right across the street from our residents. Oh my goodness. 

So that's what school did you did? 

Alright. 

Where did you go for Elementary School? 

Central grammar school, which was a little further north of a house, but it was walkable. 

So you didn't then from there to John gory, how did you like going to school? 

I loved school. I liked school. Very good thing for you. 

I go back when you started kindergarten and what do you remember? 

I really don't remember much about the kindergarten. 

What do you remember? 

Something that happened when between the ages of 35 when you were living in Jacksonville, what do you remember about Jackson? 

I really don't remember much. About three to five. 

You don't remember? 

I can do better from usually it's trauma, usually something or something that surprised, you know, that you didn't expect it had no trauma. I think. What year did you move to a Toledo, Ohio then? 

Now, I'm going to say that was about 35361935. Were already a teenager then? 

I was a teenager. No. No. I was while I was about 121213. Okay. That's teenager through it. Okay. I'm a teenager. 

So you had already started junior high, you'd finished kindergarten and first, second, third, fourth, fifth, I think that is correct. Yeah. Do you remember any of your teachers from that time period? 

I remember the junior high. Not from not from the elementary. 

So you don't remember your first grade teachers, they know what you do remember your kindergarten. Yeah, that's really good. That's very good. Alright. 

So when usually when a child gets into middle school or junior high, whichever we call it, that's when they start playing organized sports. Did you have that opportunity? 

Yes, I did. John gory, I sold her emphasized on the basketball. 

You were tall for your age? 

I was yes, I was tall and I spent a lot of time practicing because my mother was working and I had they all the afternoons to wait for her. 

So I spent a lot of time practicing on the basketball court. Made you very efficient. John gory won the state championship in 1937 or eight or something. How long ago did you leave? 

How long were you away and Toledo? 

One year. 

So that must have been a trauma for you to leave your friends and basketball and go to Toledo, right? 

Yes, It was probably, I don't know. I don't really recall it at that I'm not sure I was playing at that time. Okay. I think I played when I came back. Oh, maybe so. 

So you might have been 12 and said, yeah. 

So what do you remember if Toledo, the snow sled? 

That was my first experience with boat without doors sports. 

So I do remember that. Um, do you make friends easy. 

So when you got into a different school, you made new friends. Made friends. I have no problem with that. Alright. And then that after just the one year they're your parents decided to separate? 

Yes. They were divorced and my mom trauma yeah. 

I guess it was but I didn't really recall or that his mom, as I said, we move to move back home to her home in Darwin. Did you? 

Oh, you didn't move back to the house on Meyer? 

No, Not at first. 

We spent maybe for four or five months, six months, and then she came back to the home in her home in Jacksonville. Okay. When you came back, did you go back to John? 

Gorgeous, cool. Then that's what I think because that's when I entered John Gore. 

Okay, good. 

Now we have it. 

So you were happy you started a new life and you've got used to the routine of No dad because he wasn't around that? 

That is correct. Correct. 

So you were busy being a teenager, typical teenager? 

That is correct. Fairly comfortable. Did you miss your dad? 

Not really. Not really. 

Your mom probably didn't either and know and mother didn't really want me to have any communication with him. 

So it was I was told a cutoff at that time. 

So he never had visitations or the infect you said you only saw him one time after that? 

Yeah. 

Well, I'll tell you about that later. All right. 

So the next thing we have to think about, Dan, Okay, you're a typical teenager, but you're a good boy. Good, very good, very well disciplined. 

Well, it does. 

But let's talk a little bit about your mother's parents sued you had grandparents on and what were there what do you call them? 

Grandma and grandpa are different names. I think that's true. And I remember my grandma hurt. Her father's name was Albert cross and he worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad. Oh, okay. I do remember that. And her mother was another doll named Katherine. And she she and I were really good friends. Did they did they visit you often? 

Grandmother did. Grandmothers. Grandad died fairly early. 

So you have not too much of a memory because he worked for the railroad. Did she take the train down? 

No, we didn't. I think we drove. Oh, you drove back to Pennsylvania to visit them, you mean? 

No? 

No. Gran Gran mother would come visit mother? 

Yeah. 

But how did she get there? 

I really don't know. I can't remember what it probably took the train. 

She could've come we had a boat that when a ship that went back and forth up there, sometimes there was a you could take a ship from Pennsylvania, I think so. 

If I recall that hazily. I just assume because he was a railroad mean free path. 

But the greatest thing about the railroad and my grandmother that I remember that I think is worth mentioning. 

She was a baseball fan and I was like 12 or 13 years old and she would take me to the Philadelphia Phillies baseball games on the railroad. Cool. 

Is that so that means that you went up to visit her? 

That was either than or when we were living there for a while. Oh, the Norwood that you lived in was in Pennsylvania? 

Yes. It's between gesture and Philadelphia. That's what they call the line, I think. Okay. Okay. 

So yeah, we would get to know them very well than when you were living? 

Yeah. She was she was wonderful. She was a good Grandma. Great, great, great baseball thing. Not everybody is correct myself. And so I still, I still feel is a course you would. Of course you would. 

So that was a happy time for you? 

Yes, It was fine. I was I was fine. You got to have enough trust your mom was a little stress but she was fine. Yeah. When she got settled back again at the home in Jacksonville. And you got back into school and she got her job at the dress shop. Which dress shop did she work in? 

Livy's, a company called Levy's downtown Jacksonville. It's no longer there, but she took the bus every day and went to streetcar, street car. She didn't have a car then? 

No. 

So you all manage whatever you had to do was with public transportation? 

Yes. Yes. It didn't feel deprived at all. Did you know she made sure you had a happy growing up time? 

Oh, yes. 

How did you celebrate holidays? 

Say again? 

How did you celebrate holidays? 

Did you go to Pennsylvania to visit you? 

No, not really. My mother was very big in the Presbyterian Church on Riverside, Jacksonville. Okay. And we went I can remember going to Sunday school there. That was part of your social? 

That was part of our life. Yeah. 

So she had dear friends and then in the church, ladies meet and have their ultra societies and things of that sort. 

So she was busy with that. 

Well, she she she worked and she went to the church. She ever marry again? 

Yes, she did. While you were still a child? 

While I was a teenager. Okay. She remarried and I'm going to think it was when I was in high school. When I graduated from John gory, which I'm going to work back on years here. About 311937. John goring went 789 grades. Okay. And I think between the ninth and the tenth grade, she remarried. And what high school were you going to? 

O was going that area has a high school named Robert E. Lee. Which is still there by the way. And they moved to South Jacksonville with me. And we was a long way from Robert E. Lee and I can remember my stepfather who was a very nice gentlemen. What was his name? 

Henry Miller. Henry Miller. And he was very, very nice to me. We got along very well, and he was very nice to my mother. 

And he provided me an old two-seater Ford automobile so I could drive from Southside to Riverside every day for three years because they didn't want you to change schools? 

He wanted me to stay in the same high school with my friends. He was very generous, very generous, and it was a great experience. By the time I had the two cedar to Robert E. Lee, I had eight passengers. It was carpooling and it's fine. Carpooling was originated. Eight of them and a two-seater. Oh, my I bet you have some happy memories about the Trump came up. We had a few of the stick them in the back. Yeah. Did you take driver's training or did you just learn on your own? 

I think I learned on my own. I don't recall taking it. Right. 

Even though you didn't have to have a license and this had to have the girl the gear shift, that one? 

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. That it was an old Ford to seated forward. 

What year do you think it was in the 30s for? 

Well, it must have been about 3230, somewhere in there. Not too different than the Ramblin Wreck. Hey, qualified. Yep. It would sliver as they said, it was a flavor. 

So were you playing basketball in high school? 

I played basketball. It John gory and then when I went to Robert E. Lee, played all three years, I was a, I was a very exceptional player. I had a lot right? 

Take care. I had a lot of a lot of moves and I spent a lot of time practicing. 

So what position did you play? 

Well in high school, I was a forward and we had a great too great coaches. It Lee, a gentleman named Kirk them and another one, James sharer. I can remember them to stay so important that you can have these two gentlemen. In back in those days. Those were the two coaches for the high school. They coach football, basketball, baseball, every tree, they did everything. And those two gentlemen created a lot of really good kids. It was well, you admired and respected them? 

Oh, very much, very much. 

So they helped mature you and your sport very much. They were very well disciplined and we had a wonderful experience. We won the state championship, it Lee in 1940. Wow, How exciting. We went undefeated in 1941. And we had a wonderful experience it in the basketball. 

Well, was your social life like as a teenager? 

Well, it was normal. I think you had a car? 

I had a car. 

I was you must have been had a car and a lot of friends and I bet you didn't have a social life back then, but if our high school was, I think pretty normal people group dated or did you do do a lot of dating? 

Is a senior. I had I met my wife there in high-school. We met in high school, yes. And later married, had children. 

But the the social life was was very normal really. It's important for teenagers, dances and Friday Night Football. Football. And then eventually I played football my last year in high school. Basketball coach thought I want to play football. He talks, I wasn't very good, but I talked you into being he insisted I play it. Didn't give you an option and that is true. No option. No options. Did you like it? 

I mean, it's yeah, I liked it because it was with all my friends. Oh, yeah. We had a great team. 

And back then, the the high-school competitive situation for Florida, there were only about 1012 high schools in the whole state. And we had what we call the Big Ten association. 

There were two schools here, two and Tampa, two in Miami, One in Palm Beach, one in Orlando, and one, and they don't spread around the world. And mourning Tallahassee, one in Pensacola, you had to travel. We traveled by car all the time to play carpools. Carpool. 

So the coach is called. 

And what did you play in weekday nights like they do now? 

Basketball know we played on the weekends mostly, sometimes during the week, maybe on Tuesdays if you play, the local slipped away. 

So it ends up that really basketball took a lot of your time, but it was a lot of my time and a lot of my associates would have been what, November through November through March. Through March. Okay. We might not have started that early than they do now. 

But it's a good part of your license that was basketball at that part was a big part of my life. Let me ask you this. 

When you were growing up, did your mother ever give you chores to do did she teach you that you had to help them do things? 

Well, I know my room was very clean. Because you cleaned it our chic, No. Because she insisted that you pick up. Yeah. That's true. 

Well, you learned that she was very well disciplined. 

I don't remember any problems, so trauma, whether she ever did you get a job, did you ever have a part-time job when you were in high school? 

I worked with after she married Mr. Miller, Mr. Miller had an electric contracting company and in the summer I would work in the electric shock. Okay. 

So you learned responsibility will be there on time? 

Oh, yes, I knew that before. Can you learned how to manage some money? 

I mean, you've got paid. I got paid. Yeah. 

So was that money yours or did you give it to your mom? 

Know, the money that I worked at when she was married to Mr. Miller? 

I was. Okay. You learned how to manage your money if you wanted something very small amounts. That's the deal. Did you ever go to the movies? 

Yeah. I think I can remember doing that. We had the one Theatre downtown, the old Florida Theater, which is still there. 

And we would go to those I have found in talking to people over the years that that was on Saturday afternoon that the major past America. Yeah, that's like that applied to my life. Those smaller towns. 

Well, we took the streetcar and it was perfectly safe for you. And probably went on Saturday and got in for $0.10 or something like very reasonable. You got to treat and you watch movies a long time, a long time. 

It's where they had the cereals in the cartoons, serials in the cartoon, I'm bringing back my membrane. 

You remember Gene Autry and Rogers? 

The Lone Ranger? 

Danger? 

Yeah, Yeah, Those all the children in America. Wow. We're watching the same movie, I think so. We were very familiar with all of that growing up that way, but it's a good memory. In fact, you could think about it. You can almost smell popcorn candy. I haven't thought about that in a long time. You can introduce that idea, you can think of it. 

So they were really fun times and all the kids were there, you'd see people, yes. True. And you were perfectly safe being there without your parents. You're perfectly safe. That isn't the story anymore. 

So that's why it's so important to record the history of the kind of childhood you had. Your mom probably let you out after dinner. Did she fix dinner every night when you recall? 

Yes. 

So you would suggest we didn't go I can't remember eating out very often. 

So you when you came home with broader home with you, She fix some kinda dinner? 

Yes. Did you listen to the radio? 

I can't remember doing that. I don't remember listening to baseball. The baseball game. You go see, you know, that was the only place you could get them. 

You didn't have a lot of radio station that's coming in here, but you could hear baseball games? 

Yeah. Yeah. That would be kind of a fun thing to do. Did you cut grass? 

No. You didn't have to. I had known of those chores. You worst spoil our small yeah. You admit to it quite candidly. Yours foil. 

But you could, you had personal freedom. You could get them on the street car and go somewhere with your friends. You could do things like that without your mom being worried about you? 

That's correct. Yeah. 

Did you go to the parks, did you go to the zoo museums which you have in those days? 

I really can't remember. Anything like that. Must have studied a lot. 

You said you really liked school, So it looks good to you and you got good grades all the way through? 

Yes. Did you have the feeling that your mother expected you to go to college? 

Yes. Particularly after she married Mr. Miller and I had three years of high school. And she started telling you There's think about going to college. Yeah, I think so. 

Did they suggest that you go to college? 

Well, I don't I really don't know how I recall picking out Georgia Tech, but he was in the electric business and that was a good engineering school. No one actually told you nobody actually push me there. No. 

But you didn't even apply until your senior year of high school? 

I think that is correct, yeah. As I recall. 

And you would send off your transcripts which were very good, right? 

I remember going detect on the train was the way I got you. Yeah. Sure. That would be a way to go. Had you ever been detected before you went? 

No, I had not. Your mother didn't take you up for a visit or eight? 

I don't think so. I can't remember them. It was when was it that you got there? 

In a year? 

September of 1941. Okay. 

So this is a tense time in the world. The war in Europe was raging. Hitler was taking over one country after another. 

What are you aware of that at all? 

I'm sure I was yeah, because the young people were talking about it. Would've been talking about it. It's probably as a lot of young people were talking about the service. Yeah. 

So it was something that was part of your everyday there. That was going to happen? 

Probably was. And you don't remember going to tech maybe because you never considered co-op program. 

Who was going to pay for you to go to check? 

Because my stepfather was I was willing to pay out-of-state tuition. Yes. Probably was a good deal, was a good day. I think it was very reasonable. And the great thing was I have to December the 7th. He didn't have to pay. Yeah. 

So he really already paid for a few months. Oh, yeah. My first core. 

But the important thing was he was willing to o very important. He was a fine man. 

So you knew you were going to go in you that was a good college for you to come to. Any of the kids you went to high school with at Robert E. Lee, did any of them go to Georgia Tech? 

Not that I recall. 

So you kinda what's on your own? 

My own? 

Yes. 

So you packed all your worldly possessions? 

One little spot. 

But usually that's what kids have. You got on the train by yourself? 

Yes. Yes. No, no, no, no. I went by myself. Yeah. See and this was in 1941. 

So you were what? 18 years old? 

No. In 40 September or 41, I was 1717. You were gonna turn 1818 in December. Yeah. That's a pretty big responsibility. That should give you a little lunch to take with you on it? 

No. She gave me a little suitcase that I could send the laundry home. She would send the laundry bag. You're kidding? 

No, I can remember that. My wave train by post office. You would take your suitcase to the post office. Wasn't it expensive to ship it back? 

No. It was a small, small small sip the laundry. 

I can remember getting the laundry, but I remember somebody telling me that they even had a special kind of a container. Yeah. That was made just for that. I think so. Yeah, It blows my mind. 

But it was very convenient. Sure. It was for them. How did you eat? 

How long would a trip take from here to to Atlanta? 

That was a long trip. It was overnight like let's say let's say it was like yeah, I guess it was four or 56 hours. I don't know if I can do that in a car. Can it be longer than that background? 

I don't I don't know. Four or five hours, six hours. Thanks. 

So they made a lot of stops. Then it wouldn't be longer than six hours. You didn't get a lunch to go with you, you had something like that. Alright. 

So you get to Atlanta where you had never been before. It comes into Union Station probably. Right. Okay. And you get then what? 

I got to school. 

I don't I don't recall how, but I would have taken a cab or would you have walked though? 

I don't recall. I'll be dark, but I got there. You got there. I've heard some pretty good stories about how people got there. I have no recollection of this from the station to the campus. You don't and you had been assigned to a dorm? 

To a dorm I had come in writing to you. It was I think it was it was almost like a new dorm write-off of North Avenue. I'll make it was the second building on North Avenue. And I think his name was how the varsity was still there. Yeah. That was before the interstate? 

Yes. Of course. Yeah. 

So we just walked we could walk over easily to the varsity and I got into your dorm. Did you have a prearranged roommate? 

And I walked in and shook hands with my roommate. Whose name was John Doyle. And you'd never met him before he ever met him before from Atlanta. You had a local a local guy. And he and I became very good friends. That's wonderful. 

So you didn't have a nightmare roommate who did really well. I can remember Doyle. That's really cool. 

So when you when you looked at your door and window, you were looking at if you had a window? 

Yeah. Was it just the two of you or was it yes, The two of two of us. Okay. Pretty small. I can't recall that. You had your own bed but it was bad. It was a regular dormitory? 

Yeah. Yeah. A mutual a shared bathroom for everybody? 

Yeah. Yeah. Down the hall. 

Had you ever been away to a camp or been away from it? 

I haven't been to a summer camp in my high school. I went to mothers, sent me to camp. I guess I was when I was a John gory or maybe the first year leaf. Will you ever in the Boy Scouts? 

I forgot. Never in the Boy Scout. Okay. Alright. 

So we have the high wine club? 

Oh, yeah. Yeah. From the YMCA. From the YMCA, yes. 

So you had the highway club and you went you had a lot of friends that you didn't take a lot of vacations away from your mother? 

No. 

So this is a big deal that you're going all by yourself? 

Yeah. Mother always she loved the beach, Jacksonville Beach. Then we have a wonderful beach. And she always had a place down here, particularly after she married Mr. Miller. We had She had an apartment and then we would spend the summer at the beach. The beach. What a tough life. It was tough life. 

But then you had to go to work when she married Mr. well, I went to work and we lived at the base case. You didn't know you had a girlfriend but you were leaving her behind? 

Oh, I left Yale. I did. Left her behind. And what are you going to write letters to stay. We wrote each other and we stayed in communication. Alright. 

So head anyone prepared you for Georgia Tech by how hard it was going to be? 

No. The Robert E. Lee school high school had very, very good teachers. English, science. Had you taken physics and chemistry are ready? 

Yes. Oh, well, you had a I had a leg leg up. Tech was hard but it wasn't that hard. You know. We had a really good background in Mr. Doyle go to boys high. He went to Boys. He was well-prepared that he was a basketball player. Oh, my goodness wasn't that night. Yeah. You too have a lot in common and you were both had a good foundation. And he would take me to his home on the weekends for Sunday dinner that night. Yeah. It really worked out well for you. 

So when you come into a strange city like Atlanta, It was much bigger than Jacksonville. Oh, yes. Yeah. 

And you land on the campus that is already trending towards military and people are talking about it, they're worrying about it. And it's compulsory for you to enroll in an ROTC program. 

Why did you choose the Navy? 

Well, I was in one of the lines if the present freshman and I had this tap on my shoulder and this gentleman in the commanders uniform introduced himself. He was the basketball coach by the name of Monday. Oh, yes. He suggested I get in this other line. 

So I got in the line for the Naval ROTC because that's not what you chose. It's headed there. 

But I got there quickly and I was a very good decision. That was serendipitous. He saw that you were tall. 

Well, he knew he knew that I had anybody had recruited you to come? 

I had one or two letters from coaches. I never had any visits. I can remember a letter from the coach at NC State wanted me to come visit. Okay. 

But my door for it and, you know, I'd never seen or heard of already introduced himself. He introduced himself as the coach and I didn't know him. 

And then he was probably thinking that you wanted to know if I wanted to come out and I said Yes, I'd like to try so getting this line. And that was in the gym where everybody was lining up to register the location. 

It might have been in the nave alarm or else you wouldn't be registering for all I mean, it was you had to pick you had to pick your classes, and of course you were on the core classes. It was a given that all freshmen are going to take? 

That is correct. 

Did did they have an assembly or an orientation or anything for sure they did, but I don't recall it protected because someone telling you to look to your left and look to your right? 

No. No. You're the first one I've ever talked to them. I really don't I don't recall. 

Was to tell him Look to your left and look to your right, and next year only one of you will be there. I've heard this story. I don't think I was a drought of it. 

The dropout rate was very high and the reason behind it was is they they knew they were gonna be calculus classes, physics and chemistry. 

And those were all classes that were really hard if they were hard ground, and then you would flunk out and that's just pretty much sales. That was the treatment, the crap. Yeah. They wanted the cream of the crop. 

So you started Navy ROTC right off the bat? 

Yes. 

And that you were issued a uniform and you were allowed to drill on Thursdays? 

I don't know which days we had special classes. Took. Navy classes? 

Yes. Like navigation, that would have been in those type things. And you did have you drill occasionally and those type thing. The army was almost brand new then. Just open maybe a year-and-a-half before you got there? 

Yeah. Do you remember the big brands eagle that was over the door? 

Yes, I do. I remember that. I remember a little bit about the naval army because the basketball court was on the same building. You spent a lot of time there? 

I spent a lot of time on that bill. 

It was a big deal for Georgia Tech when the armory was built because there really wasn't an adequate facilities practicing in it. 

So that was in there was a cool table there too. I don't recall that. I wouldn't be getting the poor taste. It was the it was the basketball. Definitely. 

Did we have a pretty good team in those days? 

Well, the first year you weren't allowed to play with the Varsity. You had to have played with freshmen. 

So I played in the freshman team. 

You and John Doyle both in the door and I and we would was a big occasion when we get to scrimmage the varsity those those occasions and that's what they were. 

And where did the varsity play? 

Well, in the gym, know, in the old Jim which was attached, the Heisman. To the highest one. Yeah. We had a we had an old way out of a basketball court, but they had the gym yeah. Which had the pool binds. Yeah. And it had the bleachers so that people could watch. They called it the Heisman Jim, eventually, I don't know what they call it then. I don't know. I don't recall. I don't think it got named that right off the bat. I'm not sure what that was. It it was fairly new to Yes, it was. 

It just come into about the time we hired Friday low knew well, it does that name ring a bell to you Friday? 

Yes. The swimming coach? 

Yeah. Because the Navy guys had to do the swimming? 

Yes. Did you know how well you must have known how to swim because you had the beaches. You are a good swimmer. 

Well, I passed the test. Remember doing all of the tests? 

No. I remember they were tough. Yeah. He would it was called drown proofing, right? 

Yeah. And you had to take it even though you were on the basketball team? 

Oh, yes. You just had to prove the Navy the Navy had certain requirements on the swimming. You had to be able to Bob for 45 minutes. I don t know about that. Your hands and feet tall. I'm not sure if you had to. 

You had to you had to learn how to float and you had to swim the length of the pool both ways underwater. Oh, I'm not sure about that, but I'll pass. You did it? 

You did it. Okay. Fine. 

So you started your classes. How did they go for you? 

They went well, I liked school. The math was good, the music, I didn't have any problem with the academics. 

So you are glad you made a good choice. Things were going well for you. Then what happened was December the seventh. The seventh and we worry when you heard the news, I was in the dormitory. I can recall that. Okay. 

If somebody had a radio or something and they start putting the word and then we were notified immediately that the unit was on active duty. 

So just like that, yeah. That same 24 hours. 24 hours you were an accurate did you know where Pearl Harbor was? 

Yes. 

Well, you did knew I knew where it was. A lot of people didn't know where it was. I didn't know that. 

Well, that's good because a lot of guys at Tech didn't have the slightest I didn't have a clue. No. Didn't have a clue where it was. 

So at least you had that advantage? 

I did. 

Was John Doyle and the Navy to say John Doyle, was he in the Navy to know John was an independent and John went down and immediately signed up for the Navy. The Navy enlisted. He enlisted. He wanted to fly. Okay. And John got transferred shortly thereafter to the University of Georgia to the flight program. Oh, for goodness sakes. He wasn't your roommate for very long? 

Not for long. Yeah. You were on active duty. Does that mean you wear your uniform all the time then? 

I don't recall doing it. I think I think we did eventually, but I don't recall in the beginning with that we did. Were you sworn in? 

We were sworn in the first day that we joined the Navy. I think it wasn't an another ceremony. Okay. Yes. You were in the Navy you are not to do. Okay. 

Well, how did your life change? 

Well, it didn't really change to the summer of 42 when the Georgia Tech Navy you got assigned to May port naval station down the road. And we were really just I wouldn't say we were cadet, so we were really more like sailors. And we all split up and went out on Old World War one, tugboat, old shrimping boats. The Navy wasn't very well equipped. And we chased, I mostly use the word Chase German submarines in the Atlantic. In the summer of 42, we didn't have the movie of 42. We had vapour to 42. 

And of course I tell all my friends here at the beach that we save Ponto Vidra and Jack's Beach from the Germans, but they have not been able to convince them that, you know what? 

It was true that the U-boats were out there. They were out there and there were a lot of ships. Oh, yeah. Something like more than 400 ships were sunk. And we spent the summer. I was I was assigned onto the tug boat, the Old Navy tugboats and just do just parole the case. And we petroleum from Charleston down those Fort Lauderdale. And we would roll depth charges off the fan tail of the tugboat really by hand. We weren't to automated them. And that was just for good practice. Always practice. 

And the tugboat out, would you go how many miles out would you go? 

And I would say we're 5000 miles out. Whatever he went pretty far out. We were out the shore then. No, We weren't. You were dropping depth depth charges. He only knows who you put out and we didn't I don't know why we were dropping in mind. We never saw German submarine. 

Well, you weren't supposed to see them. You didn't have that they had come up surface. We'd have been in a lot of trouble. You didn't have radar or sonar or whatever they had was very immature. 

So if it's just guesses somebody's best, Navy was not in very good condition at that time. 

But the tech unit served with AMR. You did you serve with honor. 

And then when you went back, then, what had happened is Georgia Tech converted completely for the war effort in school, started year-round and everybody was in uniform. I think that's true. 

And then they used us as cadets for the V12 program where they had students there and we would muster them for physical eight in the morning and mustard them and go to chow. And we were sort of the leaders of those groups during that time. It was. 

But you still went to school? 

It was a regimented program. Regimented, very regimented. He had p, t or physical training. Everything was on a schedule and you ate child was eaten altogether in Britain dining hall. The correct. In Britain got to everybody? 

That is correct. And everybody looked the same and everybody was doing the same thing? 

Yes. Did you stay in the hotel dorm or did you move to tech? 

Would dorm know we stayed in the house yet. Okay. And you are responsible for the people in your particular area? 

That's correct, yeah. 

Who was in charge of you at that time? 

Do you remember the commander's name? 

No, I do not know because Coach Monday or if you've got transferred out about them? 

He was there maybe a year then he got transferred out. 

So I don't recall who the Navy guy was in the leader and there was one time and I can't recall the exact time that we did move over to tech. What dorm did Basketball. 

Basketball was continued it played and the schedule would be the Fort McPherson and some of the military establishments around the schedule got changed. 

But I was I played in 4243 with the varsity and we had that schedule, the military schedule, we go to Fort Benning. Those type places. They were encouraging you to stay in school? 

Oh, yes. They wanted engineers. 

So they wanted you to stay in school. And that was the big part. I was taken engineering and they wanted those people to start absolutely. Because the technique was just full of it. 

Yeah, you know, do your patriotic duty to stay in school and stay in school and is looking for well, they kept us in school. The navy kept us there until they got short. 

Yeah, at the beginnings, as I said, at the beginning of the war, when the Pacific started, a lot of kids did quit. A lot of them left and went enlisted. Yeah. That is true. Yes, that is true. 

So there are people leaving. There were some real young ones coming into school that were kind of bewildered. It was just a trying time for the faculty because a lot of them left to go on duty service. Yeah. 

The dean, George Griffin had went off because he was he had experienced and he'd been in World War one, so he was gone. The football coach? 

Yeah, Griffin. Griffin ended up at Fort Pierce in the Navy. In our first my first order is when they gave us a commission in 40 early 45. Where's the Fort Pierce? 

Did you meet him there? 

I saw him there. Yeah. Once you knew your name, he knew your name forever. He was wonderful man. I did get to see me. Did you ever get to meet Coach Alex? 

No. I met him. I did meet enough, yeah. 

And then my other really good coitus was coached DOD they did meet him to coach Dodd, introduced me and did the Georgia Tech Hall of Fame. 

So a great honor. Yeah. Yeah. We're making a video about him right now. Oh, yes. Very complicated, man. Count me. You loved him? 

Yes. Yeah. 

You were at Georgia Tech at time when we had really amazing people like Dean Griffin and white yeah, Alexander and like Donald, God, they're wonderful people. And when you came on, we got momentum. And one more for a gentleman by the name of Jim luck. Oh sure, Jim, he was he in our close friends. What can you tell me about him? 

Well, he was just a good friend. He was a football player. It was just a great person to be around. 

So he was the same age group you were in my class. Yeah. I know he died tragically. He did on the accident and he had ended up running the all the facilities at Tech? 

Yeah. Eventually, yeah. And he went overseas and was wounded. And he couldn't he couldn't play football. When he came back. Coach God made him assistant coach. That's one of the great thing. Yeah, dad was so fabulous. And then luck Stay there were at the university. And I think he became the head of all the facilities. And the baseball coach. I think he coached baseball. 

Did Jim law coach baseball? 

Now there was a very famous guy who became very famous while he was at Georgia Tech named Clint Castle Barry? 

Yes. And he was there when you were there? 

Yes. He was there when I was leaving. He might have been there one year. He came in and 4141 and he played as a freshmen over 42. Okay. I remember castle. 

I didn't know him very well, but I remember him, but he he just hit the headlines because it's so fun to watch. Yeah, he was really good. And the Georgia Tech beat Notre Dame. Yeah, I remember that. That was a big deal. Second thing is he beat Navy, Navy. Navy, and he was single-handed on that one. I mean, he just Wonderful. Yeah, He was a wonderful athlete. And at the time then he went off to war. He quit, was enlisted and went to war. Any die right away. His plane was lost. 

So he became a hero, a hero his before one year. And he was, you know, a nominee for all American and nominee for Heisman. Any died. 

So tragic story that people are more important now than they were at that time. 

There were quite a few of the Navy unit that I was in that we're deceased during the war, he lost we lost one gentleman by the name of right from poultry, Georgia. He and his twin brother played on the basketball and he was killed at Normandy. 

And he was there because of the tech Navy unit when he got a commission when I did and he went there and I went to the Pacific. I'm thinking about some of them that I interviewed a lot of people. While not the Navy group, but the army Group joined a V12 program or V8 or VCL. 

So whenever STP programs they had all kinds a navy and army. 

We're all bringing these programs and, and a lot of the students from 194142, I had come in there and some of the co-op students. 

What happened is when they signed up for that program, they immediately were taken into Yeah, because we were running out of out of people who have warm bodies. The same reason that we didn't get to finish and we left. Yeah. 

So they had to come back. To come back? 

Yeah. And there were a lot of them that had really dramatic war stories. Marvin shoe was one of them. I don't know if you knew him or not. 

I'm there just some really interesting people that went off unexpectedly, thought they were going to, oh yeah, but it was because we had such high losses that the military had to take them up. And you were one of those. 

Well, a navy was building up the Pacific at that time. They go into Japan and they needed everybody. Yeah. 

So you continue to go to school, you continue to play basketball, 42434344442 because we didn't get the commission till the end of right at the beginning of 45. 

So by this time you're a senior, you're almost saying, Yeah, You're already lacking a few credits. You graduate. 

But they didn't care about that. The Navy needed bodies, I think at that time. 

And so what was what happened? 

Well, the tech, Navy unit, the seniors all got ends and commissions and orders to report to certain places that we go at scattered all around. 

I got orders to report to Fort Pierce, small boats, Google, and then I went from there to little creek to the what they called the landing ship medium and LSM. And L is assigned to that. 

And then we put one into a school, went to a training school, then went to New York to put one in commission. We put a LSM and commission in New York and went all the way around to the Pacific. And we got to the Pacific and I don't want to say early 45 April, May. And we made some trips down to guano canal. 

Water Canal had been secured, but it wasn't all completely secured and we went all the way to making trips with merchandise and you are supplying supplies. 

And then we move back north to What was your unit what did they call you? 

They called us land and the ship. 

The Navy was assembling all of the landing ships in the North open our T1, T10 and for the invasion, and this was flotilla, was a flotilla. 

And we were a very small shift here, I'm thinking you and we landed on beaches who was meant to lame duck sometimes. 

Did they sometimes call that a duck boat? 

No, we were a little bigger than that, bigger than the deck, but we were 200 feet with a flat bottom. And you'd hit the beach and leave an anchor out and pull off. 

But we didn't do any of that. We did mostly supplies. We got up to Okinawa right after it was secured and then we come under fire. No, I could see a lot the Kenema causes and all of this, but we were too small. They weren't going to bother us. Said we actually like ninjas. Then we saw a lot go by. 

But then we got up to ten in right next to the airstrip where the IO again took off, dropped the bombs. 

So you were there in the Pacific. We were right there. You were right there. And then they had the but you didn't know in advance it no, it did not. There were just thousands of ships like ours than everybody else. 

They were preparing to go into Japan right? 

Then after the armistice, we took a an army unit into Japan for occupation. Rely did make Osaka, did make Japan before the war was over. And then we came back and got caught in a very bad storm at Okinawa, our ship. They send us back. They couldn't repair anybody. They didn't need us anyway. 

So we came back to the States. 

When you were in tinea and you said is where you were when the bomb went off, how did you know that they had dropped the atomic? 

We did. We did. Later. You knew when did you know whether they had the the news with you? 

The radios. And so you heard just when everybody else yeah. I was just like everybody else. I can tell you about the party we had after the Armistice Day. Yeah. It was interesting about Georgia Tech's role in that. Because the USS Missouri Word, you have to tech people on that ship in all different levels. 

The man who did the electrical broadcasting thing that was done that was recorded in studios on just on the shore of Tokyo and broadcast back to the States on a delayed basis. That was a tech man. Okay. It was a tech man that swept the Harbor. He was a man. He was there. 

Same time you were there at Tech but he left early Zealand jackson, We were scattered and a lot of places, Yeah, You were everywhere and I said, wow, there were so many techniques and nobody knew the other ones were there. No. Nobody knew where. I did meet up with a few of mine. 

Tick buddies when we came back to Honolulu on the way home after the war, did you ever celebration that? 

We had a little celebration in Honolulu, but they were on three different shifts. 

So did you know when the VE Day occurred, when the piece came in the European theater, we were in the pacific somewhere. That didn't even timely fashion. Yeah. 

So what memories? 

What memory is sort of fate. 

But I always look back that I was sold to very fortunate in the timing of everything. Oh, yeah. 

I've got a good break on navy sending me too little creek and around because I never really saw any dangerous action. You were in danger. They were shooting all around you. This works shooting. The biggest problem I have with the German submarines. Bye. See you mentioned to me you could see Kamikaze planes. We saw some of that. Yeah. You saw that? 

Yeah. 

But they don't they just said We were married the small and we traveled alone most of the time, but really, we didn't travel and convoys very often. Very rarely. It was a sight to see the flagella. Yeah. 

I don't believe that's the word I was hoping you would use because so many people have described it as well. Yeah. It's just unbelievable. It was the mite trying to put all of my therapist to let Japan no, they were defeated. 

And so many people have told me that if they had not drop the bomb and you had invaded Japan, many, many more casualties. I wouldn't be here. Probably not. You probably not. The way that's the way I look at it and maybe that's wrong, but it's not. 

So many of those grounds soldiers that did get into Japan, they found a booby traps everywhere. It would have been disastrous through it might've been much worse than the bone. Yeah. Much worse, yeah. 

West, when you finished up, you said you came around when you came back and came back with the same boat you are on? 

Yes. And they sent you back because of storms and everything? 

Yes. 

So you would have steamed you returned to New York City then? 

No. We came into San Francisco. That seems more logical. 

They do in San Francisco and have been at that time, I think people like myself, we're looking to see how the point system was and whether you qualified to retire. And my points came up while I was in San Francisco and I was relieved of duty. Someone took my place. Where did they send you discharge you from Jacksonville Naval Air Station. 

So you had to come back here? 

I had to come back to Jackson. You back or no, We came I came back on the train. You saw a lot of the country. 

The country, and there were a lot of veterans and people, was a great train ride from Chicago and back to Jacksonville, it into the Jacksonville terminal then it was because everybody was thrilled to death with the veterans were there, everybody was glad to come home. And then the jacks. I had a little story. 

They are one of my high school friends was the naval officer at the Air Station and he worked it out to where I couldn't get out of the Navy that day. I had to go 60 more days so I could play basketball with the with the Naval Air Station. 

Very helpful to them because I had been at sea or why not been at removal from the Navy was delayed again because of the basketball. Isn't that funny? 

Good morale builder there. 

Then of course, went back, tried to get back into school to get the six I think it was six or nine hours that tried. What do you mean you tried? 

There was no problem. Thank you. 

I wanted to arrange the schedule to get back as quickly as I could at Georgia Tech was taking people back anytime. You didn't have to be there. No. Beginning. And there were lots of guys like you coming back. There were a lot. It was packed. 

And the thing about the electrical getting the security the electrical degree was myself and I think six or seven other guys like myself. 

Dean savant, the head of the Electrical Engineering School, taught the classes, the senior classes, that the seven of us require himself, all by himself and bless his heart, we all graduated. Did you go That's the only classroom you went to. That's the only classes I have. And he's sad right there with him and he got into electrical class. How long did how long did that take? 

Well, I just took one semester really. I always say 11. The fall semester. And I played basketball again. Oh, the light you yeah. Because you hadn't run out of your No, I was still eligible. 

So I played basketball at that time. Was the coach then coach Monday off, out of out of the mud off. I missed that last one month door. And I had a senior moment here, Morrison or four bars and he was a colonel in the Army. That it wasn't whack hide her. No, I wasn't Haida. Haida was a freshman coach. Yeah. He was good. It was a character. I'm trying to think. I don't have the gentleman's name and they are handled mobile. 

Think of it before because I don t know if he was an army guy and had been in the service, came back and was the basketball and he only did that one year. I'll be good and I wasn't very good. It took a while to get back my thing, but I got to play, which was wonderful. Yeah. And did you have pretty good teammates? 

We had a good team. Yes, we did. 

The interesting thing about the war in a way, because we were an ROTC school and we had so many recruits. We did have pretty good football and basketball. Very good. Yeah, very good. 

And there were some places that didn't like that, some of the other schools he didn't think that was fair, but it just happened to be that way. And both Bobby Dodd and coach Alex Yeah. All of them made what Pete with you guys raised the morale and they had great athletes. They really did. And that and that at that time I was married. And how did you get married? 

We got married. I got married in I'm gonna say March of 45. Yes. Before going overseas. Oh, really? 

That's from New York. Many people did that. Yeah. Okay. And Francis came to New York. We got married in New York and I got on the ship and then she was when she came home. Yeah. Yeah. 

But then I came back to school. We had to bring her up there. 

Yes, we had the married housing at the Bell Bomber plant with all of the other texts students, was it literally out well, Lockheed was it was it was they had those small housing out there. And the text she did at Fort Gordon, but I didn't know that they did it. We did it in well, that was 46. And there were a lot of tech students, married athletes. They're the only one or two of them had cars. 

And we'd hitchhike and the school from Mary Ella have 40 or 50 of us out there, but they're only about two car. That's pretty traumatic. I did a lot of hitchhiking back. Good. Wow, that's really something. 

When you came to Georgia Tech, because you went right into the navy, you didn't have to wear a red hat ever? 

I don't recall During the tradition was lifted because of the military. It was real quick. Give us within three months we were in the whistle was blowing all the time though. 

So the whistle was still there that but yeah. And you were the Rambling Wreck. You knew that that's true yet learned how to sing rambling wreck. Oh yes, I could do that. That is very good at it. 

But you'll learn it back then. 

But that was something I'm just thinking about what traditions were there at that time. Yeah. What was going on? 

There was no bus and there was no cause it was sold adult? 

Yeah. Hello, George paper Dow, did you ever meet him there who was at George paper? 

Doubt. Never met the man and he wasn't there. 

He was pretty busy with the war, but the war a lot of stuff going on, so he was pretty busy that so what about now because you were in that one classroom with Dr. savant, you didn't interact with any of the new kids that were coming in? 

No. No. Not at all except for the athletic part. The basketball? 

Yeah. 

They had a bunch of young kids there because I know some of the friends of yours that came in at the time you are getting ready to leave or had just left? 

They were only 18 years old? 

Yeah. And they they talked about how hard it was to go to school with veterans. Yeah. I'm album 23. Yeah. You been in a war ready to get this over with and get going on a life, right? 

Yes. True is your whole thought was, I gotta get going here. 

So you and Francis were there for just one semester? 

One-quarter. One-quarter? 

That's right. Yeah. It was crowded. Crowded, crowded? 

Yeah. And if you were lucky to find a place to even live, yeah. There were no apartment anywhere. They took care of all that. I didn't have any problem. I know. Did they have a graduation for you? 

They always graduation that I did not attend. 

You did not, but they did do have a diploma somewhere where they said, Well, that's the graduation that I should have been in. They sent out a list of the people that are like our Navy unit was all listed separately. We weren't there. 

But part of that class, That's a good thing. It was very nice and they were thinking of it and I still have that list somewhere. 

So you finished up. 

Now, before we leave Georgia Tech, aside from Dr. Savant, who you must have been very grateful to and very fond of. 

Was there any other professors there that you remember at all with any kindness in your heart? 

You are big on math. Did you know dm Smith? 

I remember Mr. Smith. And Mr. Smith. Yeah, I do remember that. 

Now that you recall, he was a mighty force and body force there. 

Now, did you have to take shop classes? 

No. They they lifted that. 

So you never got to know on behind me know or uncle Billy know anyway, did you ever go over to the shop building at all? 

No. You didn't have any labs or anything? 

I'm not that I recall. I'm sure I did. I might have but I don't recall. Did you go to the football games? 

Went to the football games, sold programs. I got to deal with the cell and the programs on the corner. 

And my four guys from Tech would we had the four corners and we would put the money on the table over the steakhouse on Spring Street Steakhouse Saturday night. Oh, boy. That was when we were all married. We would all have a party on Saturday night with all of the money. Sack of the change. 

But it was a great business. It's a good business, risk business. 

So you did that after you were married when you were a student and when we came back, yeah. Did you ever go over to the why didn't get a hearing? 

Never went to school there? 

Nothing. You never went to the y at all. 

So there was no other professors and other people on campus that you'd want to mention that lead to? 

Because most of them are gone now. Did you know Glenn rainy? 

No, not that I recall. He was the English professor. Persuasion or not, you didn't have that privilege. It was a great teacher. I'm sorry, You never got to meet. I'll go honey. I am too. I don't recall that at all. He was a great character, very important. When you got there, Dr. Britain was the precedent. Yes. 

But he was trying so hard to retire and they wouldn't let him go because they didn't have anybody. Then in 44, Van Lear came in. 

So when you came back, failure would be the one who would have signed your diploma, right? 

You didn't get that is correctly written. 

So that was going on. Did you ever know somebody named Jamie Anthony? 

Not that I recall. He was around a lot than two, so I'm just checking to see. Alright. 

So you get your degree and so then you and Frances moved back to Jacksonville. Jacksonville. 

Did you go to campus Career Services to try to get a job or did you know you had a job? 

I had a job with my stepfather. 

So you didn't have to bother interviewing anybody that didn't do resumes or any of that because that was another big part of what was going on. Yes. 

So you were fortunate you had a place to go? 

I had a place to go. Did you ever have, for instance, come up for dances or anything? 

I think so, yes. 

So she might have, in fact, her pictures in one of your books, yearbooks, gorilla. 

So she did come up from yes. Yes. And you didn't mention this, but you did belong to a fraternity? 

Yes, I did. I'd belonged to the fidelity of Theta. When did you join the fight doubts. I think is a freshman. Yeah. I got in there early. 

So it was that more or less that was more of an athletic maternity. Do there were a lot of athletes. Okay. 

But it's still they still had parties and stuff and I think oh, yeah. Occasionally. Yeah. 

But I was very calm. Calm, party Philip. Very calm. Okay. You did your studies first? 

Oh, yes. Yes. Lot of people. That's where they met girls? 

Yeah. I mean, and that's where they got it done for dances. Did you ever go to any dances at the Naval Armory? 

I don't recall. I really can't really big bands they came during. 

I might have done that, but it doesn't, you don't see in there and seeing all these big performance, you didn't do any of the internet. Did you ever go into Fox Theater? 

I've been to the Fox theme. I have been to the Fox News as a basketball player. I think you could get in for nothing, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that. Football players for sure. I'm not sure we made that elevation. I don't think you did either. 

But it was close by and convenient place. Very, very nice theater. It is sort of similar to the Jacksonville, Florida theater, except much larger? 

Yeah. Yeah. Very fancy for the time. Yeah. 

So you could go there and see a movie pretty cheap. Cheap, yeah. Yeah. 

Did you take advantage of the fact that you lived in the city of Atlanta? 

Did you go I don't think I did particularly well to any restaurants downtown or go to anything special that you remember? 

There was one restaurant downtown. Parents, Karen, I do remember being there. Heron's restaurant you have famous for their cinnamon roll. Yeah, that's right. The cinnamon rolls. 

So that's where I got. Yeah, there you go. 

So you do remember that if you need a little help, harry Spring House and the Senate mineral parents were too big, big. Varsity, I do remember the varsity and pilgrims. There was a steakhouse, they're called pill greens. No. One name hairs that you mentioned earlier that's over on Spring Street? 

Yeah. 

I remember that they call that a steak house, but I've had guys tell me it was just like the wild west and you guys got a lot of actions. Yeah. 

Junior's wasn't did juniors didn't come until the last year you were there? 

Do you remember juniors across the street from the stadium caddy corner next to the theater, there was a theater called the Tech would theater. Oh, I remember that. I remember that area, yeah. Okay. 

So they never went to there? 

No. Alright. 

What it was different because you were in the middle and I was married than last time and then a little different lines. 

So when you got married, there was nobody else there but you and Frances, that that's right. Anyway, we had a lot of friends there but not folks. Family didn't come. No, no, not family. No family. We were on rationing. 

So there wasn't money for gas and entire I've forgotten. And even food was raised at that time. 

But you guys had plenty to eat because you were in the military? 

Yeah. 

Well, I had Francis worked. She had a job. 

But you get a job somewhere in Atlanta, in Marietta on there somewhere. And then I had the GI Bill. Yeah. And then at that time they put me on a basketball scholarship. 

So I was making more money than my stepfather was going to pay me as an electrical engineer. Just for that little brief one-quarter of really exuberant fun. That's so funny. Just to think too bad, it didn't last long. Yeah. Got it better, rich man. That was great. And the rent at Marriott, I think it was $4 a month. We called it subsidizes. Very nice. Yeah. The only problem was the transportation. We had local transportation problem, but that didn't work. That's great. Those are good memories. Despite the fact we were at war. Despite the fact that you did not have a typical college education? 

No. You pretty much had a good time? 

Oh, I had a good time. I had was I had a great life. 

So you ended up feeling like I had made a lot of nice people. Georgia Tech was a good place for you to have gone. 

Oh, so if I said to you, if you could do it over, would you do the same thing? 

Same thing, wouldn't change a thing. That's wonderful. It's wonderful when it is. It was a great experience. And I'm very thankful to Tech main tech was good to me. I was in I it sounds like I was adult student. No, but I was president of a hat. That's a big deal. And I had DK. 

Dk, yes, you were a big man on and I was the president of the junior class and I wasn't there really in the senior class. Yeah. 

So you are having a big man on campus? 

I'm not sure. That's a good description. I am sure you are being very fortunate. I had a lot of friends who were big fortunate man, did a lot of things. Yeah, That's great. Congratulations on. That's a big deal. 

So then you if you knew what your father-in-law was going to have you do so you are happy with that? 

So back to Jacksonville? 

Yes. Did you and Frances get your own place or yes. We bought a little house out west side of Jacksonville. Okay. 

And you went to work as what what did he have you do? 

I was a engineer, did estimating and managing of electrical contracts. 

Now, was he a commercial contractors? 

Commercial contractor. He had had he'd only been in business will maybe four or five years. 

So he was still building up a new sort of a new business. And he was very it was a very good company. He did your tech education help you? 

Yes, it helped me. 

The tech education in the construction business is a very large asset because you they say, where did you go to school? 

What I have a diploma in electrical engineering from Georgia Tech. That's very meaningful. And you made a lot of people, you're selling, you're promoting your company. And those credentials really help they impress. Yeah. 

But what you did at Georgia Tech was learn how to think, how to solve problems, right? 

Yeah. 

The engineering part never really got into running a business, particularly thinking about it, it makes it great background, but the way you think and how to address a problem and put it into how do you go to the problem? 

Yeah, That was gold. 

So you did well, you weren't intimidated by the position. You were able to help him build his business and I had a nice job. Yeah. And you stayed with that job for ten whole years, 47 to 57 years? 

Yeah. That's about right. Yeah. And then you got the idea to start your own business? 

Well, Mr. Miller was killed in an automobile accident, know, about six or seven years out. And he had a daughter by previous marriage that she and my mother didn't communicate well. 

So the business got in sort of in disarray. And I attempted to buy the Miller business with another associate there and it didn't work out. 

So he decides to leave. And I had made this date and had all these plans for the sale of the company and it fell through. 

So that very day, I left the keys to the company car in the office and walk down the street about a 100 yards to a Chevrolet dealer that I knew and borrow the car to go home. For goodness sakes started my business. 

I have resolved that you would go back into the same as a bar a bar truck, I think from a fellow named limit. And yeah. I told him I, you know, I didn't have any money. 

But he but he lived in a neighborhood if you were a veteran and he he led me the truck and went home and started my business on Monday. That was a Friday. I started the guy you were going to buy width, did he go into partnership with you? 

No. No. No. He stayed he stayed with Miller, Yeah. And so we became competitor headhunters. Yeah. And you had a great advantage? 

I had a great advantage. I had no money. 

But you knew what you were doing? 

I had I went in Bendis in the backup of garage over here on the south side. A lot of wonderful things happened in garages, had a wonderful thing, and I had a lot of friends. I had made a lot of contexts in the business and I had some customer. Yeah. 

So I got off to a pretty good start. Very quickly. 

You were able to turn it right into a private banking? 

Well into it started out slow and then it grew, but I was able to gaze. Did you end up with well, we at the end, it varied depending on the workload. 

When we were working for Disney, doing a lot of work at Walt Disney during their construction. I had as many as probably a hundred and fifty, two hundred electricians. That is huge. And it was in debt quite a bit higher than all those people. 

But the banking helped me to then lead to bankers helped and, well, let's talk about what kinda this was a commercial business for you. 

You were not doing wiring in people's homes? 

No, we did not wire homes, but I had to start a little service business to do repair work because of my mother's friends. She had a lot of friends if needed work and my mother was living by herself at that time. 

So I had to take care of her friends. 

So we just started a little service business which turned out to be very profitable. Isn't that interesting? 

That wasn't the main business. 

The main business was was commercial power plants, hospitals to start with, you are the only employee? 

When did I start? 

I was the only I was the I think I was I had a secretary and then he had to run the phones and take Yeah, I had an ad. Two or three. And then I hired, I had a young man named Philip pie that help me get started. And as you said, it took off, it took off and then we grew. All you need is one good contract to get it going. 

Well, you you need one, but you need more than one customer. You need to have two or three. Yeah. 

And your customers were all commercial contractors in most cases, you'll work through the shipyards at all because we know we eventually got him with AT&T. We did a lot of repair work for them. The Maxwell House coffee was a manufacturing plant here. We got in with them and we did a lot of their work. We'd gotten with the hospitals. We did a lot of hospital where the Baptist, the Catholic, saint Vincent's, we grew with that. And then we got the power plants section because the JEA was building their own plants. Electrical polarity to local, so not the Florida Power and Light. I know we all we did some work for them too, but the beginning we did for the local company. And then along came Disneyworld. Disneyworld. Disney World was major was a very major Contract for us. 

It was like we had many contracts with different contractors because they went all around the country and brought people in to do certain the French house, so the English towels, so the American house. 

But we must have done in 40 or $50 billion worth of electric world just in a short period of time because they had these. Next we're going to open up. They want to get going and you don't tell wonderful people working with us. And I did work in union work diabetes EW, and it was very rewarding. 

Did you build an executive administration to or did you do it all yourself? 

Oh, I I had some really good executives. They they they were executives, but they were engineers and they were managers. And they would they would take this contract, this guy would take this contract. 

And they could do more than one or just kind of like you're cloning yourself to district well, more or less, I I wouldn't qualify today. You're too modest and says, I don't believe I could go in business today with the computers at all. 

So it'd be a different world. Would be a different well, it was it was it was fun. I had good people and we worked hard and we all made money. 

So it was eventually now, I know from talking to you before you got involved with the expressway? 

Well, in the civic area, I got involved, first of all with the football with the Gator Bowl. And that was as a volunteer. That's volunteer. The golf program came, the big golf tournament came here. I got involved in that early on. And that's a volunteer. As a volunteer? 

Yeah. Yeah. It was replayed basketball again. Yeah. 

I'll tell you about that, that right after school we had a little semi-pro team here, had some Florida guys and I was the only tech guy, had mostly Florida guys. And we played semi-pro. You even went to Denver to play in the National term. That's great. 

But we weren't We were good, but we weren't nationally good. We were good in Florida on exercise. We got we drank beer. 

But that was the only thing is you had a good time. Yeah. That was fun. 

But the expressway authority, I was a local agency that was created by the state government after the war in the early fifties. And what it was in charge of was the roads and transportation in Duvall County. And they started it had the tolls on Interstate 95 from the north to the south. And they did a wonderful job and Governor Kirk appointed me to the authority. Golly, I can't remember when, but that was an appointment by the governor. 

They had to Governor appointments to Mayor appointments in this engineered from the state road department. How long did you serve on that? 

Ten years. Wow. I served for Kirk and Kirk got removed and four years. And then he was a Republican. That's how I got on. And then the Democratic governor reappointed me. 

So I served another six years. What was his name? 

I asked you Governor asked who just died last week, two weeks ago. Really good. Governor Kirk was a character, but he was and that's how I got there. And then when I got there, we had a lot of projects to do. Like you just wrote down the beach today on butler Boulevard. We had tolls on it at the time. Oh, really? 

And my little group was very fortunate. We raised the tolls five times. Very fortunate, and it worked very well. Only the user of the road paid for them. 

The city of visually voted the toes off and put on a sales tax where everybody pays for the roads, whether they ride. 

But that was a real political situation. 

But the appointment was non-paying. It's a volunteer job. You don't get paid? 

No. You just spent a lot of your time? 

A lot of times when I did spend a lot of time. 

And then the great project that we did in addition to the Butler was the Dame Point bridge, which is heavier. It's a fabulous structure. 

And I spent a lot of time putting it together, getting it started, the political end of it and finance it in. Then I wasn't there when it got built. 

But engineering, marvel, it's wonderful and it was built under budget. 

In a lot of the men that worked on that as engineers still meet every month or so because they love it. 

So they have a meeting underneath the bridge. Do they really, how how long ago was it? 

How old is that? 

The bridge is 20 years old. It's already 20 years old and I just had a 20th anniversary. It's an amazing. 

The first time we saw it we went, Wow, it is this wonderful to ask him. A lot of times stiffer when you see it from different angles. 

So that was my venture in it was a political thing, civic service. And I got involved in that. And I have some signs here that show you that they wanted to fire me several times. They did know they did it yesterday. 

Oh, but it's true what all of this established you as as a fine citizen of this community? 

I think so. It did it did more for me than it did for them and help to meet lots and lots. 

But it was it was it was worthwhile. Then we'd get something done and you could see it getting done. Never would you ever say any place but Jacksonville was home? 

Yeah. That is true. Yeah. That is correct. Yes. 

You're saying no, I've been here a long time when we think about post-war, I mean, Atlanta, that was the boom time. All cities it was it hits. Same thing happened here. Jackson. 

Now I got to tell you one little anecdote about the Butler and I say all that road went through Mr. Skinner's property. Oh, did it Did he tell you that I remember that I interviewed Chester a long time. 

If you do have to go round and round with chester? 

No, no. They they were delighted. They gave us the property because it meant so much to the adjacent property, increase the value. 

So as I still tease him all the time, but he gave me his property. He is a genuine care. 

Now Chester hours gesture, not been friends. Get-go. Yeah. He's a wonderful man. One would have to think of them almost as Mr. Jackson. He seems to know him. Oh, yeah. 

He's he's he's got such a fun and family and they've done so many orders from immuno take orders from the core. C-span never steered me wrong. He's now where did you first meet him? 

I came down here to him years ago. How long ago? 

Oh, I don't know. I'd have to look at his page to tell you. It's been a long time. Oh, it's been a long time. Sure. Yeah. Locked out. And he's sweet. I stay in touch. Yeah. 

He doesn't mind picking up his phone and do email, but he'll pick up that phone and just tell me what I need to do. 

Well, he called me right after you suggest or do I get to read yours? 

He said No. You would tell them about the lives day out to him? 

He came he comes to visit us. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's so nice to see us in Atlanta. We take a month or so he can keep up with Georgia Tech. Oh, that's wonderful. And a golf cart ride around. 

But he he he's wearing a character. And we've got a lot of other guy. Yeah. Oh yeah, this is a wonderful community. It really is. We got these secret tech guys around, grew from a very small, small to really a beautiful city. Is a great city. Yeah, it really is. We're so impressed with it. 

Now, there's an interesting part of your story all this time. You're living here in your businesses growing. 

You discover what was it 19 in the 1980s that you had relatives you didn't even know you had oh, my relatives. 

Well, my my mother and father separated. My dad remarried. And had two children but you didn't even I didn't know it at all. I didn't know eventually down the road that he had children. And then we were doing a project in Savannah, a construction project and electrical. 

And I have a brochure there in the office that the lady took home that was working in the packs and office. And her husband was involved in the military and the savanna. 

And when she took the brochure home, she had some guest overnight and the guests picked up the brochure. Turned out to be my half-brother. And he looked at the brochure and he said that looks like my father really recognize the names name. And so the lady in my office called The next morning to tell me this. 

But he didn't know no, he didn't know about to you what do you do? 

I existed I thought he did, but he didn't know me. 

But anyway, I called him. You did? 

And then we went to Atlanta. He was in Atlanta. He was still at Fort McPherson on he was coming out. He was working for the senior group and he was working for the Atlanta airport. And he was in Atlanta. And then he got retired from the Army. I went up for the retirement service at Macpherson. He and I became very good friends. 

Isn't that wonderful? 

A little bit younger than you? 

He's 50 years younger, always a lot younger? 

Yeah. He's a lot younger than me. Yeah. 

So he got a big brother out of his day and he has a large family and a wonderful wife and said it's been a great addition to the family. Did you tell me that he had a sister? 

He has a sister. 

So did you meet her tennis? 

I've met the sister and she lives alone in New Jersey. Nurse in a hospital there with no with one child. And I've only seen her once or twice. She's sort of remote. I presume that your father passed away? 

My father passed away. 

You said you saw him once upon a time when I went back to school and played see your basketball after the service, we had a trip to Boston to play Boston University and he was living in New Jersey at the time. 

And he called I don't know whether he called my mother or he called the coach or whatever, but he wanted to come to the game. He heard you were going to come there in Boston. 

So he and I met in Boston and he came to the game. 

Was that a strange experience? 

Very strange experience you had not seen? 

I'm not saying all that time. Your mom really took care of my mom. Took care or deprived at all. 

But you in a way he was rejecting, you might say, well, in his own way, he did, but that didn't bother you, but mother was sort of strict about that too. 

So did you feel like you shook his hand and that was oh, no, no, no. We had a great conversation with your license. Yes. There was fine. 

But I never saw him after that and he died not too far after that. Oh, really? 

Yes. 

So he must have died kinda young man. Yeah. He did he didn't know he was young when he Yeah. Um, but that was my only meeting after the divorce. 

So he never lived long enough to know that you were eventually going to meet his other children? 

No. No. Did he even tell you then he had other I don't recall that at all. Isn't that you were you would know that? 

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure they would have been young at that point to how interesting. 

So they lost their father fairly early because they lost their father early and they their mother their mother remarried. And so they had a stepfather. Clubs too. Isn't that interesting? 

Very interesting. Study to families and sticking around for either one or no. And Neil was a he went to Lehigh and he ended up in the army. Full-time, regular service, flew helicopters. He had a good career, two or three tours in Vietnam. Wow. And now he's done like heights. Been there, done that. He's done that. Does he live up there still? 

They live in in Atlanta, out near Stone Mountain. And I see I talked to him frequently and then in the years the first year was we met. I would take him to the basketball tournament, the ACC basketball every year. Okay. And we did that together and he's, uh, he liked basketball. 

So that worked out because he taught like you are. 

Now he's a little shorter, a little thinner, and a nervous wreck, I guess from the Vietnam. 

So he doesn't play basketball like no, not anymore, but it's been a great family situation. How long did your mother live? 

My mother lived until did she live in the eighties, I guess. 

So she she knew about packs and Electric and she saw she knew that she was very helpful in that. Was she elderly when she passed, how old was she? 

Golly, I can't remember who she was. She had to be in her 80s. 

So she had a good long life. She had a good long life. Mother was a great lady. She took good care of you. 

She just she did she did what we call bringing up whatever she taught you all the right things she did. 

When you think about your life as we've reflected on it today, is there anything we've missed any store? 

I doubt except we haven't talked about my children were going to we need to do that. Yeah, that's what comes next. 

That's Tomo to be sure there was no other things that you wanted to bring up before we wind up what we're after, I have a timeout of visually check with by your coach consultant. Yeah. You would say that you've been very happy. You you haven't lived where we are right now for a long time now, 56 months. Oh, brand new. You moved here. We had my present Lady, Betty. We had a very fortunate we had a nice home on the ocean for 20-some years. Oh, okay. And we just sold it last year. Downsides and really just downsize that relocated. That's what they call down to south Jack V. Okay. 

So let's go back and start with. Your wife's name was Francis. Francis. Francis, you had two children? 

Two children. 

The first child was Catherine, who was named after my mother's sister. Cathy. Cathy. Cathy, yeah. That was her name and still is. And Kathy was very she got started at an early age, horses riding horses. And she went to school in Virginia. And she did she ride horses in school? 

She had the horse and school. I think the horse graduated. Graduated. She wasn't a question, but I never really got rid of the horse thing. 

And so she went into teaching and breeding and had a farm in Atlanta, which she sold and she still lives in Gainesville. And she still lives on a farm. She never married and still works with kids teaching, jumping right in. 

So she gives lessons? 

Yes. That's buried. And then we communicate weekly. That's great. She's doing well and she'll come down once in awhile. 

And I don't travel very well at the moment, so I don't see your variable as well as really nice, nice. She's doing. Yeah, she's got a big space there. She's doing great. And then you had your son and the son, Wesley Junior. 

And he followed along in my footsteps, went to Georgia Tech, graduated in electrical engineering where you got the same degree and got the same degree. 

He went to a different school than, you know, things have changed and then he came back, he had a job when he got out at the pacs and Electric Company. 

So that worked out, kind of repeated itself and Westley is took up instead of horses, he took up golf. And he's very, very good amateur golf player. And he's still plays today. And last week he won the Jacksonville see your amateur champions. 

So that the one thing that will be passed on, but they aren't. Think about it is Wesley has three boys and none of his boys ever picked up a golf club. 

So the golf stopped with him. Did he play basketball ever know. Okay. 

So sometimes these days don't get paid that he took up the guy who played on the Georgia Tech golf team. Oh, okay. It was what? 

He was good at it. What is his wife's name? 

Is? 

Wife's name is Your daughter. And I said you go wait a minute, this is going to be bad. No, it's Susan. Susan. Since they have three they have three boys. Are these little boys are big boy. They had two big boys and one 19-year-old. 

So there was a ten-year gap in the second to the third. 

But the oldest boy, which is west leave the third, went to SMU, graduated, went to Tulane in law school, graduated, has a law degree, and is presently employed at the law state of Florida. A little senior moment. District. 

He works for the attorney to attorney said yeah, he works in the Attorney General's office, state of Florida and Tallahassee. Tallahassee. He's not married. He enjoys his job and he's been with them with the state now six or seven years. And was the next one that name? 

Justin. Justin is the teacher. He went to Stanford and Alabama, University of Louisville and he got a masters in English Literature. Oh, wonderful. Teachers in Louisville. He's married and they have a child. 

So you have a great, great I have a great day and daughter who was visiting recently. 

But Justin has just acquired a doctorate scholarship at Alvernia and he's going to all burn. 

So he's gonna get his PhD. He had a PhD in English literature and he is teaching, and he is teaching. He was teaching in the private sector. For the colleges for profit would be a hero. I teachers always my hero. And he is thrilled to death. 

They are moving back to Auburn and the ladies parents, Katrina, the wife, parents are in all burn and her father teaches math. That's what Oliver. 

So that family is well-settled. That's good. 

Now we get to the 19th. Okay. 

So he's the youngest ones named Mark. 

Mark has graduated June second from Atlantic coast high school in 40 average, got accepted at the University of Florida, excepted at MSU and Georgia Tech turned it down. Really, it is for o never made a B in his life. 

And he said to his relatives, seem right, does it, but you did not let him it, but I never have offered or they made bad arrow. You know, I didn't raise the phone. I didn't make 126 thousand applicants. Here. He was the best. We're going to rue the day that they made a bet or not me, I didn't do it. I marked his father. He's going to go to Central Florida and he's very interested in computer science. You will no doubt get scholarships galore because Florida does a lot to keep their kids. They do. He gets an honor roll type thing. Yeah. Yeah. There were about to that point. 

Now he's going to enter early and go to summer. He's a good student. That's a wonderful, wonderful. 

So I've been very blessed with my family and all of them are great. Those two children that came from your first wife, right. Answers. Right. And then you married again, a married again and adopted two children. Were they hurt children? 

They know they were not her children. They were adopted at birth. We adopted them together. Oh, that's wonderful. What was her name? 

Her name was Lillian. Lillian. And you adopted two children? 

We adopted two children. 

We have Rosie, who is working for the State of Florida and the Justice Department, Children's Justice. She's a grownup to grown up, married with one child. 

And she graduated from step-son and had an MBA at business and went to work for the state early and she worked with children on the Daytona Beach dock with drug problems. 

And she eventually they moved her into Tallahassee, into the legal section, and she travels the state into the juvenile court system. Wow. As 40 or 50 people working for I think just the wonderful young lady. Yeah, you're very proud of. I'm very proud of what is her husband's name? 

Her husband's name is Ralph. Ralph. Okay. And the daughter's name and the daughter's name is Patty. Okay. Okay. 

Well, I did one out of two. What about Ambrose? 

Ambrose, the second young man that we adopted. He went to Duke, graduated in economics, is presently employed by a hedge fund name Ping. And he is on E has an office in New York and a home in New York. Is married with two little girls. 13. 

So you got baby granted today, I've got little ones. And he works for the Chinese company called P. It's a his wife's name. His wife's name is correlated or lean. Her she her parents. She came to America from India. Oh, an American citizen and graduated in schools in America. 

But our family still lives in India. 

Well, that means that you have grandchildren from baby all the way to married with other children. Married with other children. Quite a great job. You've just said Ambrose is odd about his company. The ping is a little hedge fund. 

And he met ping with one that he went to work in Wall Street with another company and pig was there and they became friends. Went to work for Mr. Cohen in the sack company that's getting all the bad publicity now, they ping, made so much money. He had Ambrose left in pigs, started this company with really his money and his employees money. I think gay Ambrose is he got money in it. There are six Chinese people and one packs and they have an office in Shanghai. It's extraordinary how well-educated all your children are. 

Oh, you're so blessed by well, I'm I'm blessed by them basically, but their their mother really did the job. She raised those two because I left shortly thereafter. 

But it's wonderful. Then our single for quite a few years before Ms. Betty showed up and Ms. Betty did show? 

Yeah. Yeah. That's been alone my life. Yeah. The joy of your life. Yeah. I've gotta be careful what I say here. She's sitting right next to what? 

I've said, all these things. Okay. I'm going to test, you know, how have you been married to Ms. Betty? 

Ms. Betty and I've been married 25 years. That's a long time. That's pretty great. Yeah. Yeah, You did good. And it's been a wonderful relationship and we are very good friends and we have a wonderful life. Nothing is better than, nothing better than that. Nothing good friends. 

Now she has a great education. Everybody hangs, everybody is anything she graduated. 

She came from Pittsburgh, but she ended up here with the offshore power company, which is the floating nukes. And that's where I met her. We were doing electric work on the Luke's. 

But did you corridor for a long time or were you a fast worker? 

No. We we fought each other for a while, but it was for the best. 

So it's worked out to be a wonderful marriage, a wonderful life. 

Well, it certainly has been a wonderful life. And I want to thank you for your service to our country. I mean, you're part of that great generation. The great generation. 

We have to remind people that every night when I do my storytelling is I'll say, you know who, which war, the Greatest Generation. And it breaks my heart, but kids don't know what. They don't know anything because I really don't care. Not just not really. In our education system does not provide it either. Things change a lot sad, sad soon they won't even know how to write because they text everything. 

Some of us are going to come back and change the culture where we stand around and talk about how it was. It was, it was really nice. 

Need to go back, but I've had a good life, a good life and being good people and good manners and no regrets. No regrets. I appreciate so much for giving me your time and giving up your golf game because my golf game. 

But you didn't know it was going to rain? 

I didn't give it up. Yeah. 

So that's quite a sacrifice. You My pleasure. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it.