This is a living history interview with Peter Van Nord, Class of 1943, conducted by Marilyn Summers on August the 8th, the year 2000, at his home in Duluth, Georgia. The subject of the interview today is his life in general and his experiences at Georgia Tech. Mr. Van Nord, thank you very much for letting us come visit you here today. 

Well, thanks for coming. Your beautiful surroundings. I'd like to have you. We're really looking forward to hearing your story, so let's start at the beginning. Okay. I was born in Newark, New Jersey, and it was of immigrant parents. My father was from Holland. He came here back during World War I. His story is unique and very courageous. He was a 14-year-old boy when he was an orphan, and he had a brother 12 years old. 

So he and his brother, who were living with an uncle, decided that they didn't want it. They wanted to go someplace else. They wanted to get away. And they were living in Harlem, Holland. That's where he was born. And that's why Harlem in New York is named Harlem. The Dutch settled there and named it Harlem. 

So he left and they went to Rotterdam, a 14, 12-year-old boy, and they got a job on the Rotterdam steamship as stewards. 

And they worked on that ship for years until World War I, when the ship was in Hoboken, New Jersey, and they didn't want to be out there on the ocean anymore with the German submarines out there. 

So the whole crew, practically the whole crew jumped ship. Very, very interesting because then they had to find some way of doing something. And of course they had no papers. They were *******. 

And they went to the shipyards in Hoboken and they needed people, and they would hire people to come in, but they had to have a toolbox in order to get a job. 

So somehow they got together one toolbox, well, between a whole group of them, and one would go in, get the job, and then he'd throw the toolbox over the fence, and the next one, and so forth, and that's the way, that was his entry. and I can remember in the 30s when there was a bill passed to allow people who came into the country that way to become citizens and then he became a citizen and he was so happy and excited about that it's a wonderful story and my mother was also an immigrant she's another story of courage because she came when she was 13 now she was living in this small village of Osuska, which is near Bratislava, and Osuska was this very, very small village. Her father had gone off someplace, I think. Her mother was trying to support her and had a tough time. They were having a tough time. 

And her girlfriend, who she was in school with, and they were studying about America, and her girlfriend and her girlfriend's mother were coming here. 

So she went to her girlfriend's mother and said, take me with you. And the woman said, I can't do that. Your mother wouldn't let you go. 

And she says, well, if I convince my mother to let me go, will you take me? 

And the woman said, yes. 

Of course, at that time, and this was in 1904, at that time, they could come steerage and the children came free. 

So it didn't make any difference to this woman that she had another child with her. 

So she came in to the country that way. 

Her mother gave her permission? 

Yeah, she convinced her mother to give her permission and she came in. 

But today, I mean, that just couldn't happen. I mean, it's just an incredible story. No. 

So she really... 

She was on her own then when she got here? 

She was on her own, and this lady had gotten her a position as a domestic in Nyack, New York. Okay. And that was her beginning. 

So she was supporting herself and taking care of herself. She was. Amazing story. 

And she and my father met at a wedding in West Orange, New Jersey, where they had mutual friends, and then they were married. Quite a story indeed. Yeah. It was great. we had a great interesting family of course we had no what year were you born i was born in 1921. okay 21 all right so we'll put ourselves in new york in 1921. yeah only child many children no i have one sister who's older three years older so you were the baby boy i was a baby boy yeah and i can remember you know all we had my father didn't earn that much money he wasn't educated But, actually, as he went on in years, he became the plant manager of a large factory that took in three blocks in Irvington, New Jersey, called the Irvington Varnish and Insulator Company. 

So he educated himself. He did. He had several inventions that were developed by that company, based on his designs. 

So you were raised in New Jersey? 

I was raised in New Jersey. As a family, we did things together. As a family, of course, you had not much else to do, no money to go anyplace. 

The first car my father got was in the 30s, and it was a 1928 Nash, I can remember it well. but and my sister had a dancing school she actually had three of them and so every year putting on the recital for the dancing school was a family matter because my sister did the teaching of the dancing my mother did all the costumes for the show and my father and i did all the scenery oh how fun on the stage and then did you sell tickets for people oh yeah Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. How fun that was. 

It was put on for two nights because she rented a school and it was overflowing after the first couple of years and she had to put it on for two nights. 

So showbiz, a little bit of showbiz. Yeah, we had fun. One year, when I was 14, she said, I want you to do a number, a tap dance in this show. She said, I'll teach you, but get two of your friends, so there'll be three of you. The theme of the show that year was the Fountain of Youth. 

So there was a fountain on the stage, and I came on the stage with a robe and a cane and a wig, and I was hobbling, and these other kids were helping me on. 

And we went to the Fountain of Youth, and I took a drink, and I threw away the robe and a cane, and we went into a tap dance. How wonderful. 

So that was... A real happy memory for you. Oh, it was. It was fun. Was growing up fun? 

Growing up was fun, absolutely. Oh, yeah. 

And we talk about work ethics, you know, and a lot of people talk about Georgia Tech giving them that. 

Well, I think I was born with it with my parents, and I always wanted to earn a nickel if I could. my mother would say to me and we lived well grammar school I walked like three blocks junior high and high school I had to go three four miles and there was a bus for that it wasn't a free bus like that we have today you had to pay when you get on the bus a nickel so my mother every morning would give here's a nickel You can go on a bus or you can walk. You walk, you've got a nickel in your pocket. 

So that's what I did. You did a lot of walking, I bet. 

But I did, and I enjoyed it. And there were always a lot of other kids walking, and we had fun. Were you a good student? 

Did you like going to school? 

I was an average student. I would say all the way through school, I was an average student. I guess I was very interested in sports, sports, and I wanted to do sports as much as I could. My first job was when I was 14. Right near where I lived, there was a big amusement park. I mean, those years, it was called Olympic Park. Oh, really? 

Olympic Park. 

The first Olympic Park I knew. And it was named Olympic Park because it was built after the 1904 Olympics. And it was a big amusement park, very large. It kind of had roller coasters and things like that? 

Roller coasters. It had a big, big, tremendous pool and all kinds of games for people, you know. And my first job there was in the skee-ball game area. I worked for this man who owned three or four of these concessions and I would run the skee-ball. 

I'd have an apron on with change, you know, and he'd just give me the money and they'd have to put the money in the slot when they played skee-ball. 

So I'd stand out there, you know, barking, yelling, I'll try your luck, skee-ball, get your girlfriend a doll, you know. 

So that was my first job. 

But I always looked for away to make some money and save it. 

What were you saving for? 

Probably sports equipment, you know, because I wasn't given things like that. We didn't have the money for it. This was during the Depression. 

We had one, I can remember actually during the Depression, one Sunday summer we would go down the shore. In New Jersey, people go down the shore. Down the shore. Down the shore. Going to the beach? 

Going to the beach. 

And it was on a two-lane road with solid two-lane, solid one-lane, you know, bumper-to-bumper going down and solid bumper-to-bumper coming back. Because everybody was going to the shore. It would take hours to get there, about 50 miles. 

But I didn't like it because I would burn. 

I was fair-skinned, and I'd burn to a crisp, so all the way home, it was always my mother putting vinegar on my back, where I'd burn. Oh, to relieve the pain. Yes. And in those days, you didn't just go by sunblock, like we do today. No, I don't think, I don't know whether there was even anything like sunblock. There probably was. 

Our first radio we had was a crystal radio, and if you don't know a crystal radio, it has a little crystal sticking up on it, about that big, with a little needle. 

And you take the needle and you put it on the crystal, and you have earphones on, and you listen until you hit something on a crystal at the station. Oh. And you had a radio. 

So it was a personal thing. It was a one-on -one thing then. You were the only one who could hear it. That's right. And the phone was the old-fashioned phone. Did your parents raise you to think about higher education? 

Oh yes. They valued it even though they didn't have it. Oh yes. My father definitely wanted me to be an engineer because that was his thinking and that was his work. without an engineering degree, and he said... He was telling you that early on. He wanted me to do that, and he wanted me to go to Stevens Tech in New Jersey. And I wanted to actually get away and see more. He wanted you local. He wanted me local. He wanted me to live at home. 

Well, money must have been a factor for him, too. Oh, yeah. We lived in Maplewood, New Jersey, and he wanted me to go by bus. It would be like two or three buses to Hoboken to the school, Stevens Tech. That was probably the first college he saw when he came into the country. This is where my son's going to go to school, you know. Right, the right thing. And you wanted to hit the road. I wanted to go off and see something else. 

So I went searching in our school for different school records and the books on colleges, and speaking to the guidance counselor, and then I convinced two other students to come with me. I didn't want to do it alone. How had you heard of Georgia Tech? 

By just looking at the books in the school. 

So you really actually had never seen it, or you just looked in books and you just looked No, just researching my own throughout the material available in the school, yeah. 

Who did you talk into going with you? 

Well, there was a fellow by the name of John Rodenburg, and he's also a graduate of Tech, and Ken Woodard, who's a graduate of Tech. 

So you taught these guys into coming with you, and they actually, all three of you made it? 

Yeah, well, John had to spend another year in prep school before they accepted him, and then he came. 

But that's amazing. You must be a real persuader. 

Well, you know, it was nice to have... 

Now, how were you going to do this? how are we going to do this financially? 

Well, I'll tell you how it worked out. The tuition at that time was $120 a semester for an out -of-state student. It was $80 a semester for an in-state student. 

So I had $120. My father said, I'll pay that tuition, and I'll give you $40 a month. 

So he was supportive when your decision was made. Yes, yeah. 

So he said, Because if you want anything more, you've got to go out and get it yourself. 

But that was wonderful that he did support you, even though that wasn't what he wanted you to do. Oh, sure. He wasn't a dictator. Oh, yeah. He never would have. How did your mom feel about her baby boy going off like that? 

Well, she liked it. She wanted me to have the education. 

So they were excited for you when the time came. They were. They were very excited. 

Now, how would you have gotten from New Jersey down to Atlanta? 

You'd never been there before, had you? 

No, they took me to a train station in Newark, put me on a train, and goodbye. And you'd never been to the South before? 

Never. Oh, I can hardly wait to hear what you thought. Never. What did you think? 

Well, I'll tell you, the first thing when I came in, into the railroad station... Which would have been which one? 

Was it the big... I think it was called the Union, and it's not there anymore. Yeah, the big Union station. I think the only station left in Atlanta now is the one in Buckhead, a very small station. 

But it was a big station. 

Came in there, and one of the first things I really noticed was the fact that there were separate water fountains for the black and white, separate toilet facilities for black and white, and we didn't have that up there. Actually, in my school, in my grammar school, there were no ******. In my junior high school, there might have been two. In my high school, there might have been eight or ten, and that was it. 

And I never had any experiences with ****** of any kind, except the ones that were in our high school were the football players already because they were so good at football and couldn't run fast. 

But the other thing I remember about the black section in Newark was my mother would take me to Newark when she went shopping on a trolley car. And I go down to High Street in Newark and get off the car. 

Well before we got to High Street, looking on a right from the trolley car, I could see this ***** section in Newark, which was already run down. 

She would walk me over to the courthouse on High Street in Newark, and out in front of the courthouse there was a big statue of Lincoln sitting on a bench. And it was big, I mean the thing stood like seven feet high. And he's sitting on a bench so he had a lap you know. And mothers would bring children there to leave the children when they went shopping. He was the babysitter. Really? 

So you were left in charge of Lincoln while she did her shopping. Right. And y'all would just stick right around where you belong. We would stick around and climb up on a knee and then climb up on another and play around the corner. And it was totally safe. Totally safe. Nobody would bother you. And today, I'm sure you can't do it. 

But then when she finished her shopping, she'd walk back up to High Street and we'd walk over to Springfield Avenue and get the trolley car back to... Lincoln was a babysitter. That's just a real cute story. 

So, I got on that because of the black, but that section I'm talking about, when they had the riots in Newark, that was where it was. Okay. 

Now when you came into Union Station, you had one friend with you, because you said the one didn't come right away. 

No, I don't, you know, I just don't remember whether they came at the same time or the same way, I just don't remember that. Yeah. 

You would have had a trunk probably? 

Because they were living in a, well one of them didn't come, he had to go to a prep school. 

The other one was living in Harris Dorm, I believe, which is on the other side of Techwood. And you came to Knolls Dorm. I came to Knolls because it was the cheapest dormitory. Ah. There was differences in the prices of the dorms? 

Oh, sure. Really? 

Oh, yeah. Knolls was the cheapest dorm. Because it was the oldest one. Yeah. 

So you got a better rate? 

Yeah, we got a better rate, but you could go up top floor and look out at the stadium. Yeah, good location, cheesier accommodations. 

But I was on the first floor in room 111. You can remember that. I remember that. 

What was your first impression of the South? 

Were you overwhelmed or underwhelmed? 

What do you think? 

Well, I was... It was what year, 1939? 39, yeah, September 39. 

I was sort of, you know, looking and wondering, that's what I was doing, and so I just was taking it all in, you know, and I just fell in love with the South, really. If it hadn't been for World War II, I don't think I ever would have left Atlanta. I probably would have stayed right there, but that took me away. 

So you got to the campus, probably by what, taxi, or did you walk? 

Oh, I'm sure it wasn't a taxi. You sure it wasn't a taxi. You didn't have enough money for a taxi. It had to be whatever buses there were available, I guess. There was a trolley running around. Trolley, or, yeah. 

So you had a heft your own suitcases or trunk. Most guys were traveling with trunks or whatever. Yeah. Showed up. I had a suitcase, one suitcase. You showed up, and they assigned you to Knowles. Did you have a roommate? 

I had a roommate, yeah, John Walker, his name. Was he a Southerner or was he from out of the state? 

He was a Southerner. Okay. 

So you were going to get a taste of culture then. Yes. I was on the first floor. Tony Zagarello, I mentioned, was on the first floor. And we all met, and the first floor guys, you know, we sort of had a social thing going. You got a club going right off the bat. Yeah. Yeah. My roommate was really a bookworm. Study all the time. Very industrial. And I would study when I could. 

But Saturday night, my rule was I'm not going to study Saturday night. I'm just not going to study Saturday night. Because I have to have some time to go out and see the girls. Oh, you were looking for girls. No girls on the campus. No girls on the campus. We had to go looking. How did you find the classes? 

Well, you know, one of the first classes I can remember was English. 

And we're in one of the older buildings, and we're all sitting there, and this was the first day of class. and all of a sudden there was a big rumble underneath us and a little shaking of the building you know and the professor stopped talking he was a new professor also I can't remember his name but he stopped talking and looked around and I said the first thing that came to my mind termites and the whole class busted up Did you find out what it was? 

Something to do with the boiler system or whatever, but it was one of the older buildings that they were having classes in. 

Were you challenged by the classes, or did you find that you were prepared? 

I was challenged, and I had to work hard. You did? 

Yeah. I always wanted to play football, but here you are. I'm a 17-year-old kid arriving on a campus, 125 pounds. College football would have made me meet out of you. And I go out for freshman football. Oh, really? 

And that would have been Coach Alexander at that time, maybe. Coach Alexander. Yeah. I was, you know, the freshman coach was somebody else. Yeah. 

But they gave me a uniform, you know. 

Do they? 

And they worked me out with everybody else and went through everything while the freshmen were used at the beginning of the week for the varsity to run plays against. To practice that, yeah. And, you know, these big guys would knock you all around. It's no wonder they didn't kill you. 

So I found out that I was coming back to my dorm and then saying, well, I have to take a nap before I start studying. and then waking up in the morning. Yeah, it was called unconscious, right? 

So I had to make a decision. 

Football wasn't what I'm there for, and I had to quit football, and I'm sure they were happy about losing this little 125-pound kid. They didn't grieve over you, and it didn't affect the doctor. No way, no way. How did you keep in touch with home? 

Do you remember if you wrote letters? 

Wrote letters. 

So you kept in touch with your folks? 

There was no phone. I didn't think you would be allowed to use the phone. 

Well, I don't know whether we were allowed. I guess we were allowed, but we didn't have the money. 

So you did write letters? 

I wrote letters, yeah. And kept in touch. I got letters back. 

So you had to make time for that, for money. Yes, for money. What about eating? 

What was the eating plan at that time? 

I ate at Britton Hall. Oh, Britton Hall. 

So you got the dining carton. Meal took it, and I worked there. Oh, did you? 

I worked there on the line to dispense the ice cream in order to make a few dollars. I worked also in a boarding house at noontime to serve tables to get my lunch. And I always had like two or three jobs. Just odd things you pick up here and there. 

Yeah, I worked for a company that designed railings for outdoor stairs from some of the larger homes, I guess, that would have spiral stairs coming down to a driveway. What did you do for them? 

And I designed the railing. How interesting. Here I am, you know, and they said, well, this is what we want you to do. Can you do this? 

Sure, I can do that. Yeah. 

So I was living in a boarding house at the time. Oh, so you had moved from Knolls then. Yeah. 

And I would take the drawing, they would send it to me in a tube, all the information of what I had to do, and I would do that, put it back in a tube with my time, and leave it on the porch, and they would pick it up, and they paid me fifty cents an hour. 

Well, that was a pretty good deal, wasn't it? 

That wasn't bad. Yeah. That wasn't bad. Let's back up to those girls you were looking for on Saturday night. 

How did you meet any women, folks? 

Well, when I got into fraternity, that's when I started meeting the women. And when did that happen? 

Were you rushed right off the bat? 

I was rushed. Yeah, I was rushed by Della Sigma Phi, and I became a pledge. 

Now that cost money. Yeah, that cost money, and I had to earn it. 

So you set up for that. I had to earn it. 

And that's how I became a cheerleader, because it was toward the end of my freshman year when one of the upperclassmen said to me, Monday night or Tuesday night, whatever it is, there's a cheerleading tryout, and you're going to go to it, and you're going to be... 

Because you were a pledge you had to do what they said, huh? 

You're going to go to it, and you're going to become a cheerleader. And had you ever thought of that? 

Never, never. I said, I never did anything like this. How can I do that? 

You're going to do it. 

Well, you were athletic. 

So I did it, and it was fun. And did they teach you everything? 

Oh, yeah. You needed to know? 

Yeah, we practiced, but we don't do what these fellas do today. 

Well, I was going to ask, how gymnastic -wise was it? 

No, we didn't really do gymnastics. Oh, you didn't? 

No. Warch years were very easy things that anybody could do. By jumping and throwing our arms around and that kind of thing. 

Well, the idea was to incite excitement from the crowd. Yellow jackets was one of the best cheers. Something like yellow jackets, yellow jackets, zoom, zoom, rah, rah, something, I don't know. 

The idea was to yell at his line and then we were throwing our arms around when we did it and jumping. Did they use megaphone? 

We had megaphone. We had big, big megaphone. Big ones? 

They were big. They were like four feet long. 

So they really worked to broadcast your voice out, huh? 

They really did, yeah. How many people would have been a cheerleader at one time? 

We had, I think, five or six. That's a small group then. Yeah. You were kind of an elite little… That was it. That was a group we had. 

Did you like it, or did you only do it because they were making it? 

No, I liked it, because I go to a football game today and I'm a cheerleader. I love the cheer, I love to cheer on the team. 

So the guy really did you a good turn and threw you over there. I really liked it. I met an awful lot of nice people. 

But the girls, we had… Well, how would that have happened? 

We always looked forward to playing another team that had girl cheerleaders. Oh, because there were a lot of schools that did. 

So we did that, and then we had the opportunity to meet girls at Agnes Scott and Oglethorpe and Emory and then actually you could go to walk up a couple blocks to Peachtree and go to a church on Sunday evening and meet more girls. And meet more girls. That's when they came. A lot of the high school girls used to go to the churches. 

Well we used to you know Techwood was a apartment complex just north or south of North Avenue and that was the first I don't know whether you know that but it was the first FHA housing project ever built in this country in the 30s and it was pretty brand new when you came to yeah it started in 35 36 and it would not it prohibited ****** from living in that apartment complex yeah now next to it, going toward the east, which would now be where 85 is, there was a ***** shantytown. I mean, it was really a ***** shantytown, shacks. 

The streets were like driveways, unpaved, dirt and mud, and the shacks were newspaper lined on the inside for insulation. This was towards Atlanta? 

This was right... Where 85 runs right now. Right, yeah, right next to Techwood, toward 85. 

And it was a big area, and I know what it was like because I'll tell you about the newspaper route that I had in there. Another job. 

Well, the newspaper was the Atlantic Constitution, and there was another student that had this newspaper route, and he wanted to get rid of it, so he was offering it for sale for $150. 

So I had to buy it from him. 

Now, I didn't have $150, but I would go around. 

I'd come to you and say, do you have a quarter to lend me? 

Another quarter here, another 50 cents there. And I kept a book on it and ended up by getting the money together. You must have known a lot of people to get that much money together. 

Well, yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy, no. 

So I bought it. 

Now, over 500 papers were delivered between the Techwood apartment complex and next to it, on the other side of Techwood, this ***** shantytown. Did it have a name, the shantytown, or is that just what they called it? 

I don't remember. You know, I just called it the shantytown. And it extended all the way over into where 85 is now. It was built by, I don't know, shacks. I mean, they were just shacks, small rooms, all one-room shacks. The streets were like a driveway, which were not paved. They were dirt and mud. The inside of these buildings were paneled with newspaper for insulation. 

But I had the The route included all of the Tuckwood people and the Shantytown. 

Now, most of them couldn't read in the Shantytown. 

Well, then why were they getting newspapers? 

There's a good question. Because they were all playing the bug. The bug was the numbers game at that time. It was called the bug. 

Now, the ironic thing about it is the winning number of the bug each day was the last three digits of the number of shares of stock sold on the stock market the day before. 

So it was almost funny to watch a black that couldn't read, get the newspaper, go right to the financial section, turn the pages fast, knew exactly where to look for the number of shares of stock sold, and the last three digits would tell him whether he won or not. Oh, for goodness sakes. And they were all, they were, I mean, they all played the book. Where would they place their bets? 

Oh, there were... There was like bookies that were all... Bookies that came around, black, and they were, you know, there was some good ******. 

So they bought... I don't mean to say that. They were all good. I enjoyed every bit of this because they were so interesting. 

When I bought this, there were two black children delivering these papers, over 500 papers, every morning, the Atlanta Constitution. And they had to be delivered very early. 

The papers were dropped off by a truck at the corner of Techwood and a street further south from North Avenue. I don't remember the name of that street. 

But they would drop off these big bundles of papers at 3 o'clock in the morning, and these two kids were there to meet them and take the papers and deliver them all, and they never failed once. Oh, that's incredible. 

But one time did they fail, and they were like 12, 13 years old. And when I took over this thing, they were each being paid a dollar a week. And I said, well, now you're working for me. You're going to make more money. You're going to each get two dollars a week. And, in addition to that, one of them would come with me on Saturday. I would go to collect. Oh, okay. 

So they would take you around so you went to the right place. 

They would make sure, you know, because there were people that would say, like in the black section, there were people who would say, I didn't get my paper. And the kid would say, yes, you did. And the kid would say, yes, you did. Yes, you did. You come out and pay this man. It would be behind the door. The fellow wouldn't open the door. What would the paper cost a week? 

Gee, I think it was 45 or 50 cents. 

So it was pretty much, that was a big expenditure. And you know, I made $40 a week on that. I mean, at that time, $40 a week was really good money. That was $160 a month. Some people weren't making that. That's all my father gave me each month. 

But there were people out in the market, in the labor force, that weren't making much more than that. No, that's true. You were doing good. I really did. 

So you were able to repay all your investors. I paid that in a hurry. Yeah. Yeah, that was no problem. 

So that was a good, good investment for you. That was a good one. How long did that one last? 

I'd say I did that for probably a year and a half. Pretty long time then. Yeah. Then did you sell it when you were done with it? 

I sold it. 

You did? 

I don't even remember what I sold it for because I might have just given it, you know, I don't remember, but the papers, if he had papers left over, he would put them on my porch at the fraternity house. And this kid had to walk quite a way to do that. 

In case somebody called in the morning, because they all had my number, and they say if they didn't get their paper, I'd drop it off on my way to school. Oh, so you had a backup. 

This little black fellow knew, for example, in the Techwood apartment area, there were people that would be coming out from the second floor to go to work and on their way pick up somebody's paper from the first floor by the door. 

So he knew where this was happening, and he would slide that paper under the door. Isn't that something very creative, huh? 

I often wondered whatever happened to that kid. Very creative. 

He had some great initiative and ability, and if he ever got an education, he should have done very well. 

Well, the very first section I ever saw of ****** that was attractive and nice was here in the South. 

Because one time I remember having a discussion with somebody in a dormitory about the ****** in the Civil War, and they were talking about it still. I told him I only saw this one in Newark and I don't know much about it. You know, and that was terrible. He said, I'll show you one. 

And he takes me out to the west side and shows me this section of black homes in the west side, which were pretty much like the homes right here. 

And I said, well, who lives here? 

Well, he says, the lawyers and the insurance people and the doctors and the business people and all those that we have a lot of them. I said, that's great. Do you remember any of your professors? 

Yes. Who comes to mind? 

Well, the one that comes to my mind is the dean. He's bearded... Kyle? 

Dean Skiles? 

Fields is coming to mind. Fred Fields, and he was a math. Wasn't he a math professor? 

He always drove a rambling wreck. He always had an old car. Do you remember that about him? 

I remember that. But, of course, old cars didn't stand out in those days. Yeah, everybody had an old car. 

Well, not that many cars were even around, really. No, no. I got a car finally, but my car was a bummer. 

But I think he taught differential equations, and I was getting ready for an exam in differential equations. I also had this job I was telling you about where I did this drafting for this company. 

Well, I did the drafting, and then I started to study for the exam. 

Well, it was like 4 o 'clock before I got to bed, and the exam was at 8. 

Well, I set my alarm and woke up at 10.30. And I rushed over there. I went in to see him, and I told him the story, and I said, you know, this is what happened. What can I do? come back tomorrow, get some sleep, come back tomorrow, take the exam tomorrow. Did he mean it? 

Yeah. He was a nice guy then. He was a nice guy and he gave me the same exam. Great. That sounds like a miracle. Truly done. 

How did you decide you were going into aeronautical engineering as opposed to mechanical or something? 

Well, flying aeronautics has always been my thing. 

So it was an interest before you went on? 

My first hero was Lindbergh. Of course, I was six years old when he made his flight to Paris. 

So I remember that so well because I followed it in detail. And ever since, I was a small kid, every time a plane goes by, I look up at it. 

No matter what I'm doing, even today, I'll look up at that airplane because I want to think about flying. I have a radio right here behind me that is an aviation band radio. 

So I'll sit out here often and turn that on, and I'll listen to the pilots talking to the controller that are coming into Hartsfield. 

So it was just a natural for you to want to go into that. It was just a natural, the aeronautical engineering, and so that's where I went. And at that time, when I first started, it was a five-year course. It was a challenging course, too. Yeah, and then it was condensed and made into a four-year. We went summers because of the war, and so I finished in 1943. And I'm a pilot, too. I fly. 

Were you when you came down, or did you learn to do that while you were at tech? 

No, I didn't really learn to fly until after the war. 

So your tech time, you were not flying. No. You were just studying all about the principles of flying. I didn't have the money for that. 

Well, you could buy your way into that, couldn't you? 

It's an expensive hobby. Yes, you can. A lot of kids would go out to an airport and work at the airport and earn some flight time that way. And that's a good way to learn to fly. I ended up giving the last plane I had to Georgia Tech. Did you really? 

Yeah. It was a Cessna. We'll get to that a little bit later on. 

Okay, later. Because that came much later. Let's go back to classes. 

So here you are taking aeronautical engineering. You finished in four years. 

You're telling me you're not a good student, but you had to be decent or you would have been bounced out of there. 

Well, I worked hard and I had some nice professors. Don Dutton helped me a lot to get out of aeronautical engineering. He gave me special tutoring to get me ready for exam. I mean, to even be done in four years is nothing short of fantastic. 

Well, yeah, but average grades. No academic, no academic probations, just average grades, huh? 

Plug it along. Do you remember, you had to go to every football game because you were cheering. 

Did you have to go to other sports, too, or was it just football? 

No, we only, we only handled football in those days. Yeah, today I know they go to basketball. 

So that would have meant that your fall was very busy into early winter with that. Mm-hmm. Rehearsals, practices, what do they call them? 

We did some, not much. Not much? 

No, we would do maybe the day before the football game. Oh, it was pretty casual then. It was, it was. 

But it gave you an opportunity to earn your tee, just like an athlete. You got your sweater, which we'll take a picture of later. And all together, it was a good experience for you. You liked that part? 

It was, I liked it a lot. 

What about the Yellow Jacket Club? 

What was that all about? 

Well, the Yellow Jacket Club, I can remember my initiation into it. 

What was that? 

We were blindfolded, and we were put on the back of a truck, you know, like a hayride sort of a thing in the fall, back of this truck, and we were taken out to the woods someplace. 

And then we had to take our clothes off, and they threw our clothes all around in the woods, and then they painted us. Painted you? 

Painted. Oh, my. With what? 

With just paint? 

Paint. Yeah. Paint. All over? 

Not water paint. Real paint. Oil paint. Yeah. All over. And then we had to, then they left. 

So we had to go find our clothes or whatever clothes we could find and put on and then find some way of getting a ride hitchhiking back and then showering for a day with kerosene or something. Oh, it sounds awful. And they did that to everybody who applied for the club? 

They did it that year. I don't know, yeah, we did. How many of you were in the club? 

I mean, how big of a group was this? 

Probably about 50. Oh, that's a lot of people. Yeah. 

Well, that must have been a colorful scene on the country. It was called the pep club, the school pep club. And the whole idea was that, just like the Ramblin'' Rex today. Yeah. 

Now they call it the Ramblin'' Rec Club, but it's the yellow jackets were the spirit. 

For the week during the initiation we had to walk around the campus with a paddle, so that if we met one he would say, bend over and he'd give us a couple of panels, you know. And you had to wear your rat cap too all the time, I presume. We had to wear it. Freshman year you had to wear it until Thanksgiving. Yeah. And no problem for you? 

You didn't mind? 

Oh, I didn't mind. 

So you really hooked right into tech. You took off right from the very beginning. You were real busy your freshman year. I loved it, yeah. It didn't hurt you? 

You didn't feel homesick? 

Oh, no, no. I never got homesick. 

How often did you get to go home? 

Well, I went home that first year, I think I went home Christmas time, and that was it. And then I went home for the summer, and my father got me a job in a sheet metal factory. And I can still remember the first day working in that thing. 

They were making a stack, a steel stack for a factory that had a diameter about this big, probably two and a half feet, three feet. and it was riveted so the sheet of steel would come up and it would be grooved so that it would link together and then somebody would have to rivet from the outside well somebody had to be in the inside holding a big block of steel that was my first day on a job oh no they put you inside of it Laying on your back, holding this big block of steel up against the top of it. Just imagine the noise. 

So they could hammer on it. Just imagine the noise. 

But it was a job, and I made money. 

So I loved it. You did what you did, huh? 

Yeah. 

But then after you came back, Tech switched into Summers because of the war. 

Yeah, and then that gave me an opportunity, you know, because the war gave me an opportunity to get a teaching job. 

But the point was you didn't get to go home very much then? 

No, we went through summer, yeah. 

But I got a job teaching at the Marist College High School. Oh, really? 

Which was right in town. Was this before you graduated? 

Yeah, it was my last semester. I had every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday mornings free. And I went and got a teaching job there. I saw something in the paper. They were looking for teachers. and this was a Catholic military it's still there old boys school well it's now yeah but it's up in Dunwoody now I think big campus now but in those days it was right in town it was right in town right next to the church and so I was there to teach algebra, geometry and general science and it's a pretty heavy load I enjoyed that And another reason I enjoyed it is because I had a car then. I had a 34 Chevrolet. And because I had a job, I needed more stamps for gas, so I could have more gas for my dates. 

Did the war impact you in any way? 

Did you have to take ROTC? 

ROTC at that time, every freshman had to take ROTC. 

So you did your duty then? 

So I took the ROTC, but I went into the Navy. Oh, you did? 

I was in the Navy. 

So what happened, how did the war affect you then? 

Well, the war affected me several ways. 

The first was the fact that my cousin, who was like a brother to me, was killed in March of 43. 

So that was before you graduated? 

I was close to graduating. As a matter of fact, I was being interviewed for jobs. Lockheed had made me an offer. 

Do you remember where you were for Pearl Harbor, the realization that we were at war? 

Do you remember that part? 

Absolutely. I was at Rose Bowl Field on that Sunday morning playing football. Fraternity. We had a game against another fraternity. 

So you were with a group of guys when you found out. 

Yeah, and we were down there playing football, and one of our fraternity brothers came running down to the field shouting, Pearl Harbor, Pearl Harbor, now we're going to go into the war. I wondered if that would hang over everybody's head then. And he was happy about it. He was in ROTC and he stayed in throughout his four years and he was anxious to go into war. 

But most of us stood around saying, where's Pearl Harbor? 

We heard but we didn't really remember where. but as I say it wasn't it was March of 43 that my cousin who lived with us my mother brought over to this country her brother and his family in the 20s and we lived he was very close to we lived together yeah he had enlisted or he was He was drafted, went into the Army. 

He was fighting in the African campaign, and he fought all through Africa until near the end of that campaign, and he stepped on a landmine. 

So that made me decide I had to go in the Navy, and I joined up with the Navy. 

Did you go through graduation? 

Yeah, what I did is I joined what they call a V-5 program where you would go to the Navy and say, I want to be in your V-5 program. And they would say, okay, you have to go to your draft board and be drafted after we accept you. And then once we accept you, we'll give you orders to go back and finish your school. and then when you finish your school we'll give you orders so that's what I did and I had to go to the draft board and they drafted me they sent me out to Fort McPherson out here and I drove out in my car I had two fellows I convinced two guys to go with me we drove in to the base went through this whole routine being checked in as draftees uh they didn't finish the processing that day so they said they marched us into a barracks and they said this is where you're going to be tonight and then the other guy said to me what are we going to do you know i said well we're going to go back to the fraternity house so uh they said well uh you know how can we do that i said just get in the car and we'll go so we get in the car we drive out the gate, as we're driving out the gate, this fellow out yells, wait a lot, you know, oh we'll be back in the morning, oh no you won't, go back in. 

So we had to stay there, we went through all of the processing, now we're getting worried the next day, and finally we're into the final line, and at the end of that line it was a Navy uniform man and when we were in the line he said he's mine and then he took us and then we were taken to be sworn in at the post office and then orders to go back to school finish school you must have been relieved and when I finished they I got orders to Notre Dame they have what they call the 90 day wonder program, Notre Dame. You would go there and be trained for 90 days before being commissioned as an officer. And they tried to run this thing like they run the Naval Academy for 90 days. 

So the one thing I remember most about that is that from the time they sounded revelry in the morning, you had two minutes to get up, out of bed, outside, ready for calisthenics. And in two minutes, the doors were locked. 

If you weren't out, you had extra duty to do. Oh boy, they didn't mess around then, huh? 

So I went through that. 

Did you go through your graduation before you were inducted, though, and everything? 

Did you actually have a graduation? 

Oh yes. Yes. Did your parents come? 

May 31, 1943, my parents came down. They did? 

Yeah. They came down to see you graduate? 

Yeah. They must have been so proud of you. They came by train. It was a pretty big deal, wasn't it? 

Oh, sure. Yeah. And then it was immediately into the military. Right into the military. 

So actually, when I left home at 17, and then I didn't go back until after the war. Okay. 

Well, the Navy, actually first after I finished at Notre Dame, sent me to what they call the Army -Navy Engine School, Aircraft Engine School in Hartford, Connecticut, which was a Pratt & Whitney installation. 

So we went through there to learn all of the details of that particular engine that was used on a lot of the Navy aircraft. And then from there they sent me to a pool of officers for assignment out in San Diego. And so we arrived in San Diego. We had a few days waiting for an assignment. Then I was assigned to a station at Long Beach, California, Los Alamitos Naval Air Station. And there I was with what's called a CASU unit, C -A-S-U. That was a carrier aircraft service unit. 

And also, while I was there, I got assigned to a new one that was being put together to be sent out to one of the islands in the Pacific. 

Now, that type of a unit would operate when we took over an island. The CBs would go in there and construct the facilities that we needed in an airstrip. Then the Cashew units would go in there to run the airstrip to service aircraft. 

And that was the unit that I was assigned to and went to Point Magoo, California, for that organization of that Cashew. 

Well, while I was there, one thing happened, there was a Cashew unit out in the Pacific that went ashore, dropped off by these shore boats, and as they walked ashore they were all mowed down because the island hadn't been cleared the way they expected it to be cleared. and I thought to myself well I don't want that to happen to me and I'm in the Navy because I want to be at sea so I should try to do something about this so one weekend I went back down to this Los Alamedes Naval Air Station and I had become friendly with the captain of the base there and I told him you know this is the situation and I'd rather be at sea so he said well I'll tell you what there's a new squadron being formed here to go on an aircraft carrier how would you like to be in that I said I'd love it he said well go back to where you are and sit tight and hopefully in a couple weeks orders will come for you to come here. 

So I did that, and I got my orders to come back, and I went into this carrier Air Group 40, it was the number of it, and we were assigned to the USS Sewanee. A southern sound. 

The USS Sewanee was one of four carriers that were named after Rivers because they were a special, different class of carriers. 

The only ones in the Navy that were named after Rivers, they were, before the war, the largest tankers in the world owned by a Standard Oil Company, and the Navy took over these tankers and convert them into carriers. 

So this Air Group 40 trained at Los Alameda's Naval Air Station, then we trained at Livermore, California, and then we went aboard the Suwannee to go out to sea. And we went out and we covered the Okinawa operation, which was a really interesting thing. 

And getting there was interesting because all of the ships gathered together at Ulythi Atoll, Ulythi Island, thousands and thousands of ships were sailing toward Okinawa and you'd stand on the deck and look around 360 degrees and see ships as far as you could see because ships don't travel as close together as the cars do on 85 but ships all over and you felt so good and proud about being part of this yeah so we landed uh and our aircraft covered the landings on uh okinawa on april 1st which happened to be april fool's day you know but it also happened to be that year easter sunday and they never expected us So it was a big, big surprise that we hit them on Easter Sunday, and that was the April Fool's joke for them. 

So it was a very successful operation. We operated there for many, many months, covering the operations that went on there. Then we sailed down to the Philippines, and we were in the Philippines for a while. Then we went down and covered a landing for the Australians in Borneo. 

Well, you joined the Navy and saw the world. I saw, well, from the sea. And then we went toward the end of the war. 

We were close off the coast of Japan when the war ended, and we were getting prepared to cover landings in Japan. And, of course, the war did end, and that was fortunate. And then we wanted to show strength in Japan. 

So everything that was close by was sent in, and we were sent in to Nagasaki, where the second atom bomb was dropped, and we were there three weeks after that bomb dropped. 

And I always kid people saying, well, I had to be subjected to radiation, and maybe that's why I'm healthy today, because I was. You were irritating. 

So many people, they get by a power line, they say, oh, you're going to kill us, you know. 

But we walked all around among this rubble. Oh, you actually went on land then? 

They took us, they wanted to show. Wasn't the radiation? 

They gave us a shoulder holster with a.45 and go walk around. 

So you were actually in the atomic robot? 

Yes. 

Well, weren't you exposed to a lot of radiation that way? 

I imagine so, but nobody wore this. It never affected me that I know of. 

Well, you saw firsthand what that devastation was. And that was very interesting because it was such a beautiful harbor. When you sailed into it, you were sailing between fjords on each side. It just dropped right down into the water. And you sailed in here, and then it opened up like the top of a keyhole. Big, round harbor. 

And then from there, the land would just gently, slightly slope uphill, and then up to a mountain that surrounded it. It was like a big bowl. bowl, and they had set the bomb to explode after it went below the top of the ridge, but before hitting the ground, and that's the way it worked, so that everything within that bowl was black. From the top of the ridge beyond, it was still green. This was in August. 

So you really saw what the devastation of it was. it was it was really terrible there were some Japanese people walking around in there with masks they were smart enough to wear a mask we didn't have a mask yeah yeah and it was nothing standing nothing well there were all of the steel Steel buildings were just crumbled pieces of steel. 

There were some concrete buildings that were standing but were black, and were blackened completely on the inside from the heat and the fire. And then everything else was just laying around. You could just barely distinguish where a road was and then go along the road. A mind-boggling show of power, huh? 

Yeah, it was. I always said, you know, that the war was a tough thing for a lot of people to go through. I wouldn't have missed it for the world. 

So, because of the adventure, the friendships I made, the hard part is the losing of friends, which happens, but it happens in any walk of life anyway, so it's going to happen there. Happens more on the highway than it does out in the war zone, so that was my war experience. 

Then we came back, the ship was sent back after the war, and on the way back we had to stop at Saipan and Guam to pick up Army people to take them back. 

So they outfitted the hangar decks with rows and rows and rows of bunks, four high bunks, and we were loaded with Army guys coming back home. People who had earned their points or were ready to hit the states. Yes. Yeah. 

And had you earned enough points to get out? 

No, I had, I spent some time in a naval air station in Kansas, Kansas City, Kansas, Kansas City. It's a long way from the ocean. Yes. Yeah, but they needed- They plunked you in the middle of the country there. They needed a lot of administrative work to be done there. 

So you finished out your tour that way. 

And they brought me in there, and the captain there said, I need this done, and will you take care of this while you're waiting? 

I said, sure. 

So that was what I did. 

Now I'm out. I get out in June of 46. 

And I wanted to, I felt like there was something wrong with us just sending everybody home and not maintaining our strength. 

So, in July, I went and I joined with the organized Ready Reserve of the Navy. And I spent 26 years in the reserves, going one weekend a month and two weeks a year. 

And every time I came up to be promoted, I was promoted, and I ended up being a captain in the Navy, which is a nice rank to have because it's a flag rank, it's an 06 so called, and you get special privileges. 

When you put in all that time from age 60, you're a retiree and you get all the benefits of a retiree. It was a good investment, wasn't it? 

It was a wonderful investment, wonderful. 

So 26 years in the Reserve and how many years in the regular Navy? 

Three? 

Well, it was three years, three months, three days. Isn't that interesting? 

Yeah, yeah. 

So altogether that's almost thirty years, twenty-nine years plus. Yeah, I get my monthly pay and I can use all the facilities. When I was flying my plane around the country. Oh, now how did that come about? 

Well, let's go back to you got out. 

What did you decide you were going to do with yourself besides joining the Navy Reserves? 

Oh, I went to get an engineering job. You were an aeronautical engineer. 

Now, how did you go about getting a job? 

Where did you go back to? 

I went to… Did you go back up north or did you come to Atlanta? 

No, I was home. You went back home? 

Home. New Jersey. And I went to Curtis Wright Corporation. Which I assume was based in New Jersey. Orwell, New Jersey. and they had just started a department for rocket engine development. And here you are with your tech degree. Because they brought Dr. 

Goddard, who's recognized as the father of rocketry in our country, they brought him to Caldwell, bought everything he had, brought him up there, bought all of his inventions, all of his hardware, and his whole crew of men from New Mexico, where they were, and said, go to work developing rocket engines. 

So I came in about that time, and they said, how would you like to work in the rocket engine department? 

I said, fine. 

So I ended up in there. I was a draftsman first, and I was a project engineer. We had a rocket engine, the motor is a very simple motor. 

You know, it's a nozzle, and you put fuel and oxidizer in it, burn it, it comes out the nozzle and provides the thrust. 

Well, we were using the fuel, which was a combination of alcohol and water, called WAUK, as a coolant. Of course, you had to cool that nozzle. 

So we had channels along the nozzle, and the fuel would go along those channels before being injected into the motor. 

Now, the front part of the motor, the cylinder part of the motor, had to be cooled, too, on the inside wall. And we would spray the fuel on that wall to cool before it would start burning. There would be hot spots. 

So they gave me the project of trying to solve the hot spot, of course it would burn out the motor. 

So one day I'm driving, I had this project, they gave me two other engineers that worked with me, and I'm driving along a road and on the left side there's a dam. And I look out at the dam and of course water flows so smoothly over a dam. 

So I decided to put a ring inside the motor, just maybe an inch downstream from the head. 

And now that fuel for coolant had to build up behind that before it could flow, and then it was flowing smoothly, and we eliminated the burnout. Wow, that was a good idea. we ended up calling that the Van Nord Ring. 

So that was my contribution to engineering. Did you get a patent for that? 

No. 

I don't think even Curtis Wright did, because I would have had to sign something if they did, but no, I don't recall that they did. How many years did you stay with Curtis Wright? 

I was there for six to seven years. A good little career going. Yeah. 

What made you decide to go back to school? 

Well, it wasn't long after I started there that I went back to school, because I had the GI Bill. Oh, I see. Because it was going to be paid for, you might as well take advantage of it. That's it. I wasn't going to waste it. 

And what did you choose? 

Well, I was either going to get a master's in engineering, or law was always in the back of my mind. 

So I said, well, I'll try law school, see what happens. It was all that babysitting from Abraham Lincoln, that sort of was. Might have been, yes, who knows. 

So you were a part-time student, working full-time and going full -time college? 

I was actually a night student, working and then going at night, five nights a week. Five nights a week? 

Wow, what a grueling life that was. It was. Once you get into it, that's the hardest part, getting into it and settling into that routine. Once you do, then the time starts going faster. 

But I would go right from work. I'd go to school. I'd have maybe an hour in the library before going to class. Then classes would be over like 9.30 or so, 10 o 'clock. I'd go to the library, stay there and do all my work for the next day, and then go home. It makes me tired to think about it. Wow. How many years did you manage that? 

Four years. Four years. And then you graduated. And if you go full-time day, the law program was three. And that was from what school? 

Rutgers University. And so here you are, you have your law degree. Yes. To match your aeronautical engineering degree. Right. 

And how did you decide which career to pursue? 

Well, that was a tough decision because by that time, Curtis Wright had sent me into a contract and order department and I was doing the preparation of proposals for contracts and reviewing contracts for them. and so I was doing pretty well with them and from that going into something that I was going to have to start at the bottom on was a hard decision but the thing that made me decide going into law is because I felt like law is a personal service business it's giving a personal service and I just felt like I wanted to work with people More than you were? 

Rather than with designing structures or designing engineering or airplanes or whatever, or parts of airplanes. 

Did you contemplate going in with an established firm, applying for a position that way? 

I did, yeah. 

I was offered that, and I also considered going into New York with a firm in New York, work, which could have been a great opportunity because I was an heir and uncle engineer, a lawyer, and an experienced engineer, and a firm that would specialize in aviation law. And that was an opportunity that I decided I didn't want. I wanted to have a general practice country lawyer. Really? 

That's what I wanted to be. Idealistic. 

So I was a country lawyer. 

So you set up shop, got yourself some partners, and practiced law. General law? 

Every day? 

General law. Today I don't think you can do it, but in those days you could do it. How many years altogether did you practice law? 

Forty-five. Forty-five years, so general law all the time. Yeah. You've seen it all, haven't you? 

I think so. 

Now, where along that scenario did you decide you wanted to start flying? 

You were going to make a point of learning how to fly. 

Okay, well, after I went through all of my engineering, aeronautical engineer and everything else, and experienced on the carrier all of the flying that went on there, and as often as I could, I was always by the flight deck to watch the landings, because that was so interesting. You never saw two landings alike. 

That I decided now, after all these years, I know enough about this to start thinking about flying myself. 

But I never thought about it seriously because I had a problem with one eye. 

I had an accident when I was eight years old, roller skating, and a stick went in my eye and a vision in the one eye was impaired. 

So I didn't think I could fly. 

One day, a good friend of mine, I'm in my office, I had a case that was postponed, and he dropped in about 10.30 and he said, hey, what are you doing? 

I said, well, I'm just doing some office work because I had a case postponed. He said, well, why don't you come to the airport with me? 

He was a pilot. And I said, fine. 

So we went to the airport. By the time I got back to the office, I had my first lesson. You found out you got bit. And then I would go every morning, early, and I got my license. 

So your impediment to vision was no impediment at all? 

No. I was able to pass physical every time. I don't think I could pass an airline physical, but I could pass one for a private pilot. 

So that's what you licensed yourself as a private pilot. Private pilot. And then my first plane was a single engine. 

So then the big deal was to get the money together to buy the plane? 

Because you had to have your own plane. Oh, yes. What's the use of it, right? 

Yes. 

So tell me, what was the first one? 

It was a Cherokee 180, which is, a Cherokee 180 is a low-wing plane with a single engine in the front, four seats, two seats in the front, two seats in the back, and a little baggage compartment in the back of that, and I flew that for a few years, and then- Did you go lots of fun places with it? 

Was it just for fun? 

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 

I used to fly up to Vermont or New Hampshire and Maine to go skiing with that plane, and I flew down here to Reunion at Georgia Tech in that plane- Oh, did you?... in 1968. That's an interesting story. 

I don't know whether Tony Zagarello might have told you that story, but Tony and I, same class, he's going to a reunion at 68, I am, so I said, Tony, why don't you fly with me? 

I'm going down on my plane. And he said, oh, I love that. He says, but June, he said, has never been in an airplane she's afraid of. 

So I said, well, okay. Then he calls me a few days, and he says, Look, I made a deal with June. She will go down by train, and I'll fly down with you, and I'll go back on the train with her. I said, Okay. 

About two days before we're to leave, he calls and he says, You won't believe this, but June said to me, What do you think about if I fly down with you all? so I said hey that's great so we met this morning the particular morning when we were to fly and it was raining bad weather so I figured well all we're going to do is go to the airport go through some oceans and then we'll go down to Newark Airport and hop a commercial so by the time we did that at Lincoln Park Airport it cleared up and the weather report I got going down was okay so we flew now all the way down in the back of the plane she's sitting in the back of the plane alone she's sitting there holding on to the handhold here looking straight ahead scared to death no movement of her head no looking around not a thing and every time I look back at her that's the way she was you know Well, that night, Friday evening, when we're at this dinner dance for our class, we're all at a big table, and she's carrying on about the beautiful flight she had. And you know she didn't look up on it. How many hours would it have taken at that time to fly? 

Oh, and that plane... 

How long did it take you to come from there? 

Yeah, that plane probably took me, I had to make one stop gas on the way, and it was probably five. 

So, pretty much the day in the plane. Yeah, yeah. 

But going back on Sunday, going back on Sunday, she's hopping around all over the plane. Oh, so she flew back. 

And you know, in a small plane like that, you have a person in the back that's hopping from side to side. Yeah, you can feel the mood. You've got to keep working the controls because she's upsetting the balance. 

And then before we landed, she said to me, do you think I could go someplace and learn how to fly? 

She loved it. I said, June, that would be beautiful. Yes. 

And then about three months after this, Tony called me up and he said, you won't believe this, but I'll tell you. You know, June was afraid of flying. 

But she was afraid of a lot of things. she doesn't have any fears anymore. Isn't that interesting? 

It kind of cured all of her phobia. Yeah, it was really a nice thing to be part of. Yeah, that's a great story. We still talk about it. And you continued to fly. 

Yeah, my last plane was a Cessna 310, which is a twin engine plane, and it was a 1960 aircraft, a classic aircraft. At the The end of the wing on each side had a 50-gallon tank shaped like a tuna. They were called the tuna tanks, 50 gallons. 

So you had 300 pounds hanging at the end of each wing. 

So the wing would always do a little movement, which is nice. 

And then inside the wing on each side it had another 15-gallon tank, but twin engine, and And it would seat five, two in the front, three in the back, and in a baggage compartment. 

But I flew that all over, all around the country. Pursuing your passions of skiing and golf? 

Oh, yeah. 

In 1995, my grandson, who was fifteen at the time, he and I took the whole month of August to fly around the country. 

So we flew out over the northerly part, going out, stopped in North Dakota, stopped in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and then Lake Tahoe, California, and then out in the San Francisco Bay Area, flew down along the coast of California. What a wonderful way to see the country. Oh, it's just beautiful. It was great. 

Are you still flying? 

See, I'm going to be 79 this year, and unless you fly a lot, and I was flying a lot, you can't keep up your proficiency in flying. 

So I said to myself two years ago, you know, the airline pilots are retired at 60, and now you went way beyond that. Sure did. It's about time. 

So I gave my plane to Georgia Tech. How generous of you. They could use the money. They couldn't use that plane. They have a Yellow Jacket Flying Club, and it's out at Fulton County Airport, Charlie Brown. 

So the plane went to them, but they sold it to the fellow who was their chief pilot. They took the money, and half the money they used to fix up planes that they have. 

They need all single engine an aircraft, and the other part of it they put into an endowment which provides income so the kids that need it to learn to fly have some money to learn to fly. Isn't that cool? 

So, and that will go on forever. That has to make you feel real good to know you're healthy. And the principle, excuse me, the principle should just, you know, increase in time. Yeah, yeah. 

So you're helping youngsters like yourself from all those years ago have an opportunity that wasn't offered to you at the time. Sure. 

So that should give you a nice warm feeling. It does. That sounds really cool. It does. 

Now tell me about your skiing. Skiing? 

Skiing is one of your big hobbies, right? 

Oh, it is. I just love skiing. I never skied in my life, yes, never skied in my life until I was 42. Oh, you took it up? 

Okay. Yeah. I couldn't afford it and I was too busy. And then once you got it, you got hooked on it. 

Yeah, I had a client that was building a ski area in New Jersey and invited me up to take a look at it in the fall of the year that they were building. And we went up and we walked down the slope, you know, it was fall. And he said, when we get snow up here, come on up, ski. I said, I've never skied in my life. He said, so come on up and learn. 

So I did. A new adventure. And once I started, I did it every Thursday morning. I would go to my office early and leave, go up there. It was only like 40 miles. And I had a locker there, and I kept my equipment there. And I'd get the ski instructor, and we'd go work for an hour and a half or two hours. 

And then there were many times I'm laying in that snow, and I'm thinking, what are you doing? 

You're nuts. 

But once you get it, and you get the feel, you're really hooked for life. 

How about golfing, did that happen the same way? 

Golfing I took up late, too, because I couldn't afford it. 

But there was a club in New Jersey called the Upper Montclair Country Club, and I was always impressed by it and the location of it and so forth. so one year back in the 60s a friend of mine who was a member said well why don't you would you like to join and I said well yeah I'll look into it he says well I'll sponsor you I had to have two sponsors so I did become a member and I was a member until just last year that's a long relationship and are you a good golfer? 

No, average. I'm an average golfer. 

But in 93 and 94, I was president of the club, which was a nice thing at that time, because we were doing a complete renovation of the clubhouse, and we got that done during those two years. 

We have a senior tournament there, and the first year of that senior tournament was my first year as the president and it was still going I think every year since and I know it was this year Lee Trevino won this year and he won the first one we had Oh nice Now tell me about your children Children, okay I have a bundle I have several children as I mentioned And my daughter, who is in this area, lives very close by, only about three, four miles away. Her name is Shelly. I have a daughter up in New Jersey, Linda, who has three children. Shelly here has one. then I have a son Bob who is outside of the Philadelphia in the Philadelphia area in Springfield and he has one daughter and then I have an adopted son that is Paul I have a lot of stepchildren and as I say we're all very close we're all together very often. 

Any time there's a get-together we have it here or we have it at my daughter's Shelly's house and we'll have everybody together because we meet actually at least once a month for breakfast to celebrate somebody's birthday. It may not be that month but it might be the month before or the month after and something like that. 

So we do that all the time and we have great get-togethers and a lot of fun but beside my daughter Shelly in this area I have step daughters in this area one is Jane who lives in Lawrenceville and another one Ann who lives also in Duluth somewhere between where I am here and where Shelly is we're all pretty close by. 

And then another stepdaughter, who is a nun, Sister Julie, who is the pride of all of us, a great, great lady, teacher. 

Where did she live? 

She is now in New Mexico, in a retreat that's run there by the Christian brothers, and she was on loan from her mother house, which is outside of Philadelphia, to this facility to run it with the staff, people, and they have 40 nuns and priests that will come there for 100 days as a retreat, and And they're from all over the world. Very interesting. I've heard about it. I was out visiting with her in February, March. I went to ski at Santa Fe and visited with her at her retreat and met these people. Just lovely. All priests and nuns. they're all dressed casually and they all have fun together and do their thing in their religion one of them there was the only one that was wearing a habit was a nun from Nigeria and Julie said she wore a habit all the time she wouldn't be seen without a habit Except, when we were there, the Mardi Gras was on, and they had their own Mardi Gras party that we were to go to, and it's up in a mountain. We tried to get up there, snowstorm, we couldn't get there, so we missed their Mardi Gras party. and she told us about this one nun who's from nigeria who was a very tall and a very big woman and she wore her native costume and did a dance for them how interesting and julie said boy she really had her butt moving it was very uh very interesting i have a julie just sent me recently a picture of herself in her Mardi Gras costume. I think I mentioned all the girls now. I mentioned Linda up in New Jersey with three children. One is Peter named after me. Your namesake. And your flying buddy, right? 

Yeah. 

He flew with me for a whole month of August of 1995 and we flew all over the country but then stepchildren going on with them I have Jack who is in Charlotte, North Carolina **** who is out in Lake Tahoe California Bob is my son who is up in New York Philadelphia area I mean and Bill is right here in Duluth also he's in the automobile business and I hope I mentioned them all you know how it is when you get big numbers at my age and you've got that many grandchildren 15 16 grandchildren yeah yeah 16 grandchildren now is it the proximity that brought you back to Atlanta well Well, Atlanta, I always said that if it hadn't been for World War II, I never would have left it. 

So once I did, I felt, well, someday I'm going to get back. 

And so retirement gave me the opportunity, and the fact that I had children here gave me the opportunity. and the fact that the mother of my stepchild I mentioned and my daughter and my son Bob and Shelley is here unfortunately in a nursing home here with Alzheimer's and it's right down in Atlanta on Druid Hills Road, called Fountain View. 

But that's a tough disease to see somebody suffer. It's a terrible thing to see. Yeah. Atlanta's a better place to be retired than up north anyways, let's face it. Yeah, of course I miss not being able to go 30 miles of ski. Oh, that's true. 

But you picked up a new hobby that we're looking at right here. 

Now Now, your new hobby is? 

Is the garden. The garden. Oh, yes. And you're pursuing it with the same passion you did everything else. 

But I'm still, you know, skiing and I'm still golfing. I have a bad knee. I have to think about an operation on my one knee. 

But that keeps me from dealing in a garden, which is actually the best way to garden, on your knees. 

So I just, I bend over. You're a bender or a squatter, huh? 

So my back feels it. 

Well, you've created a masterpiece behind us here, this wonderful garden, and with plans for more. Yes. I'm going to, two things I have underway that haven't happened yet. One is I'm putting a well in. Which is a good idea in light of the current weather situation. Yeah, the well is going to be drilled up at the top of the hill there. and then the line is going to come from there and tie into my system for the house. All the water will be well water in the house and of course the sprinkler system and everything. 

So you'll be independent. I'll be independent. That's what I like. And the other part is an arbor. 

I'm going to have an arbor built up there near the top of the hill on the right side where the steps reach the top pond. You can see it in your mind, can't you? 

Oh, yes. 

I could see all this in my mind when I looked at this property and none of it was here, and that's why I bought it. 

But the arbor will stretch over the top patio up there. You can't see there's a patio up there with a stone table and benches. And it'll be over the top of that, and then it'll continue to the left for about 50 feet. Oh, it's going to be a big harbor. And then when the roses mature, it'll be covered with roses. That sounds wonderful. Just wonderful. 

I'm glad you can see it in your mind's eye, so we know it'll come to be, won't it? 

It will come to be for sure. Oh, yes. Your story has been very, very interesting. It's been a lucky story, too, isn't it? 

Oh, I think I'm very fortunate. You've had a fortunate one. Oh, yes. I've done just about everything I wanted to do. It was adventurous. You followed the opportunities that came. 

If you had to do it all over again, would you still pick Georgia Tech? 

Oh, yes. That's a for-sure thing? 

Oh, definitely, yeah. No question about it. Yeah, and I'd still do it the same way. I mean, it would still be engineering and then later get into law. 

So there's an awful lot of things that I probably won't get around to doing because I have so many different interests, like painting, I like to paint. I've tried it and I'm going to try some more. You mean like watercolors or oils or something like that? 

Oil or acrylic. Acrylic? 

Mm-hmm. 

So, well, you've got a long road ahead to get to all these little things that you wanted to do. And photography. I like photography, too. And I'm going to try to do some of that. 

I may give the sweater frame the way it is to tech and then use that wall for what I consider some of my better photographs. Wonderful. Just wonderful. 

Well, I'm glad you wouldn't change your mind about going to Georgia Tech, because Georgia Tech wouldn't want to change its mind about having had you there. It's been a wonderful adventure, and we've really enjoyed hearing your story today. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for coming. Our pleasure, sir.