This is an oral history interview with human race Phoenix class of 1955, conducted by Maryland's summers on July the 22nd, 1999. We're at his home on lake Burton and Clayton, Georgia. And the subject of our interview is his life in general and his experiences at Georgia Tech. Worries. Thank you so much for letting us come up here today. Thank you for coming summer day and it sure is nice. Sound like burden. 

We're looking forward to hearing your story and appreciate very much the opportunity to put it in our archives. 

So let's begin at the beginning. Where were you born? 

I was born in Texas. Then we moved from there down to Miami, Florida and I was about six years old. What year were you born? 1933. Okay. 

So you were in Texas in 1933. What was your dad What was he doing for? 

My father was the principal of elementary school. How interesting for my mother told her to school. 

And I did have my mother for our future children removed Miami and she taught at school where I went to in Miami Herald metrics group. 

It's interesting that they made the move because you don t think of teachers as, you know, moving, they usually go someplace and stay forever. 

So my mother's parents lived in Miami and she wanted to move down there and get out of Texas desktop, I like. 

But settled and the dad take up teaching or yes, he he taught at Miami. 

She your height was a civics teacher and my mother taught at a private school, Cushman for a few years, then she went to more, switched over to a public school called Morningside. And I have her mother for third grade. You know, what's it like to have your motherboard? 

Well, you just have to be careful. I would raise my hand and say Mother. Instead of say Mrs. predict, what? 

A fiddle and everybody laugh and giggle. 

But it was nice. 

And of course I couldn't get away with anything because particularly when in high school, because I went to the same high school, my father taught me anything I did at home. He was ill or spreading it around school. Anything I did at school. They're all telling him so I couldn't get away with anything. You had a very supervised shall we say, you are well supervised. Brothers and sisters. I had one brother and one sister and they were both who holds me and my sister was four years old. My brother two years older. 

So you were the baby? 

Yeah. And they weren't they were going through the same thing you were at school. What was it like living in Miami? 

Well, it was very nice. It's a lot different than it is today. It was really very, very, very nice. Yeah, Good. You had a happy childhood? 

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I hadn't had a nice childhood. Would go. 

When I was about 11 years old, I started delivering papers or pick up little extra money and you're supposed to be 12 and those kind of big for my HLA. They said, well, okay, go ahead anyway. 

So I started delivering papers when I was 11 years old, delivered the Miami Herald and the afternoon and then I guess I had a paper out all the time from when I was about 11 years old. 

Well, I was through high school and pick up a little extra money. 

But in the summertime I usually get another job too. 

But it was great growing up down there because when I lived in the morning paper later on, we would get up around 430 or so and go liver our papers and then ride their bikes over to Miami Beach. 

They have about three or four of us get together and ride our bikes over there and go down to what is now South Beach. And it was completely different than it is now. You know, it's a big nightclub, disco area. 

But back then it was just mostly apartment houses and they had a jetty that went out into the ocean where the ships who would come in to the Port of Miami would pass by this generally put these big huge rocks, boulders out to keep the sand from shifting into the channels so that the water would be deep enough for the ocean liners to come in. 

But we used to walk out on those jetties and we had these homemade sphere God. We would go. We've made them out of bamboo, piece of bamboo that we call it out. And we've got a tie rod from an old car, a break rod and sharp a bit. 

And we give them a get, get some energy use and tie it around bamboo and shoved the tie rod through this bamboo stick and pull it out kind of like a slingshot. You get right down to a fish. 

You could, right? 

Yeah, you could catch somebody who had so we had a lot of farm kind of deep sea fishing from the data. Where is it? 

Well, we haven't been a good memory time. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Great grown-up time. Were you a good student? 

Oh, well, I'll make it fairly good grades. I think I had a 90 average. That's fairly high school. And so were you involved with sports? 

Yeah. I played I played football in high school. I went to tech on a football scholarship. Some thoughts how that happened. That was going to go my next question, and we're pretty good football player. 

Well, I guess I got recruited by other school. 

Well, I'll tell you a story about how I got to Georgia Tech. I was sitting in a basketball game and high school basketball. Okay. My coach called me out of the stands and said, this was after our football season was over. He says, Bobby Dodd is going to be in town. And he thought about be able to get a scholarship at Georgia Tech. Georgia. 

Well, gee, that's great. It says Bobby dr. Would like to see you. You're wrong because I had a big well, my biggest problem was like I was real slow. What I'm trying to say. 

And so you say you are a big, big man that I was slow, slow began the time, my time or a 100, whether one of these little Sam tiles. Anyway, coach Dragan was the high school coach. She says Barbie doll is going to be out of your Saturday morning. You can come out and he will just say you're wrong. 

So you said they are not o'clock Saturday morning, so I don't have to worry about shipping 30, I get warmed up, admin, running shoes on the shorts and everything. 

Well, anti-clock came and nobody showed up and ten o'clock, I've got to stay till about one o'clock, but nobody showed up. I went on home and I called coach drivers as well. 

I was arrises, did I miss them wise as well? 

He said Coach, God could make it, but he's going to give you a scholarship anyway, or you can do a cancellation. 

So it's a good thing he did assume you run it. I've never gotten the scholarship. Had you thought about going to college? 

Yeah. 

Well, I have more or less assumed I would get to college some way. 

So you always that you have picked any point. 

I thought, well, I'll probably end up the University of Miami because it's closed because it was close and the tuition was not high. 

But I had a couple of other people that were interested in me. 

But when this tech offer cameras at bullets here, of course, up until then, I was not really that familiar with that. I was going to ask, Had you ever even heard of it before? 

Yeah. Yeah. I'd heard of tech but I was not really familiar with it. Had you ever heard of Bobby dad before? 

Yes. 

So he had a reputation that down to Florida. 

So you are knowledgeable? 

Yeah. 

Oh, what did what came with that scholarship? 

What were they? 

Well, this was we had our room and board or tuition books and we had, I think $15 a month for laundry. And what did you have to do in return for that? 

Well, just play football. Not No worry about your grades. 

Well, you had to stay eligible. Course. I called. She couldn't play, but there was no minimum grade. 

You just had to there were certain requirements where you had to keep your grades up to a certain level, you know, just be eligible to play football and you already had a good grade point average. 

So he was looking at good academics. I was very fortunate into high school. 

I went to, had an excellent college preparatory courses and some of the trigonometry and geometry courses I took in high school were the same things I took my freshman year. You were very lucky and I was very fortunate. 

So that was probably good to have two parents who were teachers to teach you how to study? 

Yeah. I would think so. 

What did they feel about you moving away to Georgia Tech? 

Well, they were they were tickled to death. Oh, they work. How the reputation, Georgia Tech and they were, they were very, very pleased with it. 

So baby boy makes good. It's alright. 

Do you remember the very first time you saw Georgia Tech yesterday? 

We had there were three or four other 3123 or four other football players from the Miami area that we're already at Tech. 

And so we drove up together in the same car and we had I think practice started on the first or September. 

And so I can remember driving up with three other fellows and myself and just little small car to Georgia Tech to go to football practice for football players. And I remember these other guys who were grinding up there. Of course they'd they'd been there. 

They were I think they were kind of pulling my leg a little bit, just says, yeah, it looks like a factory and they tell me all managed really hard. Your stories, you know, so there I think they're just trying to suck me out. Did it work? 

Well, a little bit maybe, but we got up in it. 

When I first saw it, it looked about like what I thought, Well, maybe that's what it should look like. And I started out at Brown Bomber. Tory was with dark Jimmie Durham where there's my roommate, boyfriend, Talladega, Alabama. I admitted that summer he had come to Miami. His mother had a little have a restaurant down in Miami. 

So I've met him and so it was it was an experience but it was an adjustment, but it was do you remember the first time you met Bobby dad? 

I believe it was at a team meeting or some short I don't know. He went to stand up their weight and shape hard enough. Did he ever refer to the fact that it hits stood you up? 

No, he didn't remember. I'm sure he didn't remember that. 

I wasn't going to remind you that you reported to school and started classes and football practice or was it first football practice? 

Well, it's first was football practice. We started September the 1st on football practice. I think the class has started a couple of weeks later. Okay. 

So the first thing you had to do was get the big workouts. 

So that was kinda nice. I didn't get hit with it all at once. Okay. 

So you can adjust it. 

And did you have you didn't see Bobby data at that time you saw the other coaches, right? 

Well, he was at practice, you know, And he was at a team meetings. Of course, he was there. 

But he did He wasn't involved that much with a freshman. 

That was in 1951, wasn't it? 

Yes, he's starting to build his legend shows a really, really fine football coach. What was your impression of him? 

I thought he looked like Roy Rogers. He's really was my hero. He's gotta be a good person. 

But no Barbie doll, he was actually he was kinda like planning for your father, I guess. 

So you have a lot of respect for him? 

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. He was one of the finest man, I guess I've ever known. And he was always thought he was a master psychologists because he could he would talk to his team. And he was, he could say just the right thing. I can motivate a person. And sometimes it was challenging. Like this team was very good. Coach DOD, we had one of the team meetings were at right before the game. He says, now this team is better than we are. And you can almost feel all these guys then I'll be darned. He would just use psychological tricks like that. He'd work on your pride. 

I've often heard where brac say one time he says he would like to play a team that was coached by somebody who was trying to coach like Bobby Dodd, but he didn't want to play around with Diet Coke because they knew that that was a better thing. 

But Barbara Dobbs very his his blood guts type thing. He was very well. He worked on like a whole fellows pride. 

And if he had to respect course for all the players and you knew if you weren't doing your best or if you were loath and you just weren't going to play. And he didn't he didn't say much to you if you just didn't know it. And so he had some excellent assistance to, you know, and Ray graves and urban was byline coach. They were real team. Oh, yeah. They did. 

Did you play slower you well, my sophomore year, our second strain, and then a junior year they went they changed the rules. It used to be they went from two per ten football back to one button football. 

So I got laid off my junior year, but my senior year because I didn't well, I got laid off and didn't have any defensive experienced, really good defensively. 

But junior, senior year, I came back and I started about maybe half the games. 

So you got some real experience? 

Yeah. 

I remember when I was a sophomore, we went down to play o bys and the sugar bowl and hold miss out an excellent team or they are very good and coached. I didn't really want to play really good. 

But I liked Frank Ross talked him into it. Attainment Director Steve voted. 

So you couldn't they wanted to go to the Sugar Bowl or the Orange Bowl. 

And what happened if I remember right, they originally, the team decided they wanted to go down to the orange arrow because it's all Mohammed read more fun than New Orleans. 

What? 

I believe it was Frank brawls talk from MTR changing their vote and voting again and say, Look, this has got an excellent team. 

If we beat them are both. Our prestige will do up, our ratings will go up. 

So he talked to Tim and devoting again and go into New Orleans and culture really didn't care. 

But anyway, they got down again, like I said, our second string that year. It was a pretty tough game, but we we were here at the end of the ball game. We had about oh, about a minute left to play. 

And how do these little kids along sideline? 

And they had come up in anger, passion, he says, Give me give me a chin strap or give me this, give me that. 

So I gave my chin strap while he's ill kids, I figured out what I'm going to get in. 

So know about that. 

Well, the urban saw me says gone here, please last couple of place. I looked around for that kid. He was long ago. 

So I'll play it I guess the last two or three plays at the sugar bowl and I guess that was a sugar bowl of 1953 without chin straight. 

When I've always been really grateful for every law, right? 

I've always been really grateful for what urban. Let me at least get into games. 

So you had that as well. I could say I could play I played the sugar bowl. Then my senior year, we played Arkansas and then we win that game. We did win. 

So everybody did. 

Then my senior year we played Arkansas and the cotton boll and the Amarna Anderson when I played the same position. And although it was not officially to petunia, if kind of ended up being that way. Anyway, just the way they had the rules set up. It's called limited substitution. 

You could have sub to the whole team, but something like maybe once a quarter, they were trying to deemphasize football and everything. 

But anyway, I went broke his leg in the first part of the game. 

So I played most of the game. Wow, cotton boll and our real tired at the end. I know. 

But did you do okay. Yeah. Yeah, we want I like 146 or something. You were a hero that we had a good time. I'm citing to do that. Hello, it's giving you something. Always remember and be empowered to Bobby ads team, I would say that that's a big claim to fame. It really is a very special league. 

You know, that's what people, how was the academics, what was the challenge there you were doing okay in the beginning because you handled that. Like I said, I had a very excellent college preparatory courses in high school. And so my first quarter at Tech was just a review of what I had in high school. 

So I tell you the truth, I just kinda low through so bad. And I said, shoot, I've I've done all this before. 

So I just kind of coasted through them and I gotta, I gotta be out. 

I'm going to go to about, about a B average but first quarter, and that was without trying without really trying too hard, then the second quarter was about the same because I'd had a lot of the solid geometry and all that stuff in high school. 

But now I got to the third floor. They started taking up new stuff. Stored quotient again, that was still a coastal. 

So I came home with some d's and said, Gee, I better get back together. 

So I felt like buckled Allen and it came out I think I came out with overall 2.8 or something, but very good for Georgia Tech. 

But I gave you a little scare there for awhile. 

Well, I just unmute. Knew I wasn't getting good grades list because I was studying. I wasn't doing the whole work in math and I should have I would just here to sign three problems. I might do one. You didn't notice that everybody around you is working like we're working like dogs. 

Notice that? 

Well, I was still in that coasting and so I had to get it in first gear and get out of there. 

So I did and we managed to retrieve managed to get back up to speed. 

Well, where's your social life? 

Like? 

Did you have one? 

Well, my social life or back then? 

Centered around the movie theaters because I didn't have any money. 

They gave back then they used the Fox Theatre lows, paramount and Rialto all gave the football players free movie passes. 

You can go up there and anytime you want, if you wanted, you could go up and show them your passion you got and free. Pretty nice. 

So that was more or less the center of my social activities because I, you know, I didn't have any money and most of my buddies were in the same boat. We're just so they were making good movies in the field. A lot of musicals, you know, if you don't see much anymore, you don't see anything like that? 

Yeah. 

But they're still fun to see today. Yeah. 

So you were living in Hollywood? 

Kind of went. Okay. What about the dances? 

Did you ever participate in, Daniel? 

Yeah. Yeah. 

We would go to the dashes and then of course, I had joined a fraternity and they had we had parties and attaches over there and of course, good answers. It was a happy life. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You enjoyed your college time? 

Yeah, I did. Can you remember any of your professors at all? 

Yes, I can. I can remember my college career getting off to kinda shaky start because I got thrown out of class. 

One of the first classes ever went to, before they call it the rows that have a social phobia was a social studies or social science, what are they called a course? 

And we have Professor Scharf, who was a professor. He was, he had come over from Germany, is very brilliant man. And he had come over from Germany into 30's. And he still had this very thick German accent. 

And he was calling the row with this thick German accent and all of these pronouncing all these names with this Schmidt and pop fill in Phoenix. And there was a guy in back of me that he really thought that was funny. He was laughing. I mean, he was good Hoffman family and he was hahaha. 

Now I'll admit I was smiling. I might even been granted, but I wouldn't make any noise. 

But he's professors. Scharf thought I was, I never will forget. He put his finger and he says You high-school boy, get out. You didn't know what to do. I said, Well, I can't explain to him. It wasn't me. I just got my books, turn around and sell it back with 0 left. He just granted when he was granted from year to year. When I left and came back about 15 minutes and meet up with them in order. Shook hands and he's there. Okay. Have a seat. 

So never had more trouble for the course. Yeah, I'll pass the course. 

But to this day, he didn't know. Professor Sharp does not know that. It wasn't, it wasn't really worth. You knew better than that. 

How about some of the other professors? 

Anyone else can? 

I think one of my favorite professors was a chemistry professor. Professor Ross. 

He had a very mild mannered and soft-spoken, but he had a knack of making complicated situations easily understandable. He could take suffering complicated, make it easier to understand. And that was what I thought. Excellent teacher, I guess. 

And of course we had in freshman chemistry, you learn all the formulas and all this stuff from the valences and all that and the comp, different compounds and he could explain it where it came out, where it made sense to words. I could understand. That sounds good. Yeah. I've always thought he was one of the best professors I had that effect. He was a big baseball fan. 

Another thing I remember about him for about two or three years in a row at the start of the professional baseball season. 

He would take each team individually and he would analyze each player, you know, their batting average, number of errors they make. You take the pictures there and there and running averages. And he would rate them at the start of the season, low 1234. And he hit it exactly correct for about two years in a row. And he had picked out who was going to be in the World Series and who's going to win. And he was right. He was right. He took it all to a scientific level. When did it happen? 

Yeah, That was amazing. I couldn't get over if he was doing that Las Vegas, he could have. Tell me. Do you feel that is a football player or anybody who's giving you any breaks? 

No, I don't think so. 

You worked now? 

We did have coaching classes that were mandatory for certain cautious while I like the chemistry course, in short math courses, it was mandatory at all. Incoming freshmen on scholarship had to order these coaching classes and they help out something. 

But I don't think any professor ever broken a rule bent over backwards in order to just to do just because we were football players. I don't I don't think they went on at all. 

How often did you get to go home being so far away from home or I didn't get home that often when we got home during Christmas break and during the break, during the quarters and that was about it. 

And did you drive back each time you drive? 

It was a rigorous trip and you put it it took about of course, they didn't have expressways back then it took us about $60. 

Would usually get two or three guys on the car and just take turns driving and drive straight on through and be there in about 16 hours. 

In those days, did you have a special place to eat your meals with the team or was it on your on your own? 

Yeah. 

Well, the team had a training table. It was under the stands. If they're under the old stands there. On the side. All the well, I guess it was the east side. And so we had a crane tail. Ms. Twigs, I remember was the lady, the dietitian that make sure you gotta make sure we had enough food. Food was good. Thomas me more about this training table. 

Well, Mitch twigs was the dietitian, I guess you would call her and she was responsible for making sure all the players or anyone else scholarship had the proper food, you know, and she would order their food and whatever we would need and she'd make sure that the girls were cooked correctly and it was very good. And it wasn't just for football players, it was for anyone on an athletic scholarship. 

So you had a chance then to be around all the athletes? 

Oh, yeah. Sure. I remember I believe was on Thursday. They had for lunch, they had sandwich day. 

That was unusual because usually what happens meals? 

Well, usually it's hot meals, but everybody liked the sandwich cycles. 

They what they would do, if I remember right, I think brought up this just as big tray of bread and cold cuts and ham. You made your own sandwiches. Oh, you could pile it on all you want it to, as many as you want it to. I can't imagine you're a big eater. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. You got enough? 

Yes, absolutely. 

And was that for just supper time or was that all these three meals a day? 

Breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Except now, it was Sunday dinner, which was not included on your own, on your, on your own on Sunday. I expect you to do for goodness sakes, go over juniors, I guess, with no money though. 

Well, we had a little buddy would not much. 

So you did go to juniors or the varsity hotdog or some some things haven't changed at all. That was what was an old tradition? 

That's right. 

What about shirt tail parades? 

Did you ever see or have them while you were in school? 

They had one. My freshman year. 

If I remember right. Tech had gone up to play the University of Kentucky football in Lexington and they had beat Kentucky. And it was considered an upset because Kentucky are supposed to have such a good team. 

So I remember everyone, I just kinda pound Allied arms, whooping and hollering the game on radio and television, like televised, not, but certainly on radio. And it's just a spontaneous thing. And allow these upper-class and we're trying to get something. 

All these freshmen are organized into something, you know, they were egging them all and it ended up they may have a shirt to operate. Went up either maybe spraying straight or wispy tree all the way downtown. It went downtown. Just masses of students that live alone and click on Macondo live. And where you are using college students. Were you in that line for awhile? 

Dropped out. I said, I don't know if I like this or not, but anyway, it was kinda fun. I will stay there until we got downtown. 

And I said, Well, I think I'll slip out here just to let everybody in town know that tech one that was and it was kinda just a celebration type of thing. Luckily, the people are very tolerant audit. 

And do you remember it any other years or ever hear that it was going? 

They were not necessarily plan. We just call any other ones. 

Now, there might have been, but I don't I don't recall it. 

What Chris has a football player to you might've been with the team and this could these could have been going on anyway, right? 

I could put it back. What was fraternity lifelike? 

Was that a good thing for you? 

Yeah. It was I enjoyed my lot of time over there. We had some Some real nice fellows and mass parties, and it was a good, nice place. 

If you had a date, you could take them over his house to fraternity party. 

And but most of but I wasn't real active in it because most of my people associated with football players on scholarship was thrown with them a lot now a lot of good friends with them in that area. 

So primarily, I guess it was associated more with the football players and I did with the fraternity brothers, but he still had to go through and initiation and still we have met a lot of really wonderful people and attorney. 

Even to this day, I still say I'm occasionally on football games and everything, but it was it was a nice thing to have graduation rolled around for you in four years. 

You were one of the people that did it in four years and you kept your scholarship the whole time, right? 

Yes. No small feat. 

Well, you know, back then, Barbara Dodd had a philosophy or maybe a policy is a better word that he would never wants to. 

Scholarship was offered, he would take it away from a fella just because he couldn't play or he wouldn't, wasn't that good of a football player. There were fellows. 

I know that when four years to Georgia Tech on a full football scholarship and never dressed for varsity game. And he got them through school though? 

Yeah, I got them through school. 

And of course, this was back when there was no limit on the number of scholarships that a school could offer. 

So they could do that. 

But they can't do it now because you're limited on scholarship. The number of scholarships they give is limited. 

So they have to be very careful about who they pick. 

And I think now that if a thought does not real par, in some schools, they said, Well, we don't think you're going to like it, so we're going to take your scholarship gentler, kinder time. Yeah, that's right. 

I've always I've always thought that I've been shorted that they put a limit on scholarships because it made it so much easier for a lot of fellows to get a college education than they would've had to do otherwise. 

Now, I could have probably gotten a college education maybe at the University of Miami, but I've had to work my way through it. And of course, there's co-op program, you can do that. 

But when it's been I wouldn't have been as joyful experience that turned out to work for you. 

So it really gave you a golden time, didn't That's true. True. 

Do you remember your graduation yesterday? 

It was at the Fox Theater and we had well, we had like a baccalaureate, if I remember right. We had the commissioning ROTC commissioning. 

Now, we didn't tell me about that. Were you in ROTC all the way through? 

I was No. 

It was obligatory for two years, right? 

I think so If I remember right, I think you had to stay in it for two years. And did you say? 

Yes, I did. And I'll say it all four because back then you're gonna go into service one way or the other. Either you're going to get drafted or else you could go in through ROTC. 

And I can remember your head when I first started thinking about what I want to do as far as ROTC was, well, I want to join the Army, the Air Force, the maybe so I thought, now thought about it says, well, if war comes, I don't want to be digging foxhole and living in a foxhole. Navy I forget. Sock, I know drown. 

But in here for us, if I go out and fly for a while and come back, I'm sleeping, the good bet. 

So calculating sign up for the airport. 

Well, maybe I'll proud Air Force and I had no intention at all even considering career. 

And I thought, well, it's just something I have to do and then I was going to go out and getting the Air Force do my duty and think about at my discharge, I just go back to my job that I could have gotten through tech being NorTech writer. 

So I decided to go into the Air Force ROTC. And then after your sophomore year is over, you had to decide whether you want to continue and I did. Then you decide whether you wanted to go to flight school or not? 

I said, Well, that might be fun. I think I might like to fly an airplane. He assigned me up for flax group. 

So back then, anybody that signed up got to go to flight school as long as you had to pass pretty strict physical. And but nowadays it's it's much harder to get into pilot school. 

What did that mean when you said you wanted to go to flight school? 

Does that mean after graduation what we're gonna do that. Okay. 

How did it impact you during the four years you were in school? 

You had drills? 

Well, we meet once a week and then of course we had classes three times a week. We had military subjects. You know, just different things that you would expect military service to teach in college. And that happened through your whole four years? 

She were taking military classes. 

And did you take to that life? 

I mean, it was it was it was just like another course to me back then. Of course I knew I'd have to eventually go into service and it was interesting. Some of it and most of it right leg, yes. 

And so I thought, well, it is something that, you know, I'd like to know and although a treated more or less like the other class was taught to, and probably no more, no less. 

But the intention was at graduation you'd be doing get your commission. And I knew I would be the summer months after I graduated that'd be called him there for us. Okay. 

Now, what about being recruited for a job at graduation because you had a commitment to the military, you were ruled out of that then, right? 

Yeah. No. No. 

Because you weren't because the people from the from these corporations that would come down to interview job applicants from the tech seniors. I knew this was universal. I mean, all of these gas you have to go into service sooner or later. They were aware of that and it really didn't matter. 

So I was so did you interview for something? 

Yeah, I did. And I went with Jones and Laughlin Steel Corporation. 

And I can remember I said, well, the only place I'm not going to go is Pittsburgh, so I don't mind living anywhere except I don't want to go to Pittsburgh. And that's exactly where I want. 

Tempting fate to say something like I had another, I can remember I had another job offer from like go into Philadelphia. 

But the one at Pittsburgh pay $25 a month bore. 

So you changed my life because somebody who didn't have any money when I was growing up, 25 bucks back then, was that all about money? 

That's exactly what it was. 

How long before you had to leave that and go to flight school? 

And I went reported in Pittsburgh and the last part of June. And then I had to go on the air force at December. 

Did your parents come up for your graduation? 

Now, my father died between my sophomore and junior year. Wow, that must have been telling my mother wasn't a real good health. 

So my sister had come up and my brother who had was graduating that year from the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis. He couldn't come because he had already graduated. He had already today so he couldn't make it, but my sister was their mother couldn't go. 

So off you went to Pennsylvania places and took your place among the successful when new rich. And it didn't last very long. 

But you notice that you were going to flight school? 

Yeah. We were off there and what we did, we would go through the Zona sales training program. And of course they knew we were everybody on it but just about going out to go into service. 

So they knew they knew that there's really not any sense and getting this out in the field right away and start doing this. 

So they put us on a training program where while we would go through the mills, the steel mills, and learn how they made the steel, how it was done. 

Talk to the people there and get to know some of the workers and the supervisors and leaders supervisors perform and so forth. And superintendents we know will turn and reports on us. 

And so it was a training program who are going through and then I had to go into service in December and I had plans when I left with coming back to Georgia law firm after I got out of service. 

But that didn't come about. It didn't happen that way, but that was the intention. Where did they send you for flight school? 

Went to first to San Antonio for processing texts. 

That was San Antonio and for Lachlan Air Force Base and they just about everybody back then it went into the service, went through lactone. 

But mentally, they got all the paperwork done and all the processing your physicals. 

And then I went to primary flight school at Honda, Texas, which is about 40 miles west of San Antonio, out there in West Texas and sandwiched called handled by the sea. And it was a lot of fun. I really I really thoroughly enjoyed this was the right decision. Yeah. Yeah. Some of it has to detect fellows out there. Oh, really? 

Yeah. And that's familiar. Yes. My mom came on out. In fact, there were myself and to other tech fellows. And one aviation cadet had the same instructor. We will call it we call it the same table because we had just the same instructor. 

When you go into the briefing rooms, you had this table, you're all set out and he would tell you if what they're gonna do. 

Well, he had brief us on how we're going to do these particular movers and so forth. 

When we were flying, we had three tech villas there and there are some other tech guys in our class. It was a lot of fun. We had. 

It would go into San Antonio and the weekends and occasionally go much to Aspen down to Mexico, on to some of the border towns on the weekend. 

How how long does a flight school last? 

How long it take you to be trained to get you Wayne just takes about a year and you go first to primary and then two basic primary as you learned as solo and you fly a single engine. Then we flew a T3, T4. And T3. T4 is adjust. Come in to use the service I'll use use to find all T6, which was a World War II trainer. And T6 had a crash landing gear, which means you have a nose gear. And I'm sorry, the teeth 34 had the prostate gland in here and the OH, T6 had a tail wheel. 

And that was a big difference because a classical landing gear with a nose gear is much easier to taxi and land and maneuver on the ground with T6, with a tail wheel with the nose way up in the air. You're taxing the heading. Do like this. 

So the guys could see where they were gone because they couldn't see over the counter. 

But we would like to second class has started and T3, T4. Then from there we went to teach 12ths, which was a larger single engine. Then from primary flight training and what M2 basic flight training. 

And I went to Oklahoma and flew be 25s, which was a twin engine piston aircraft reciprocating engines. We stayed there about six months and we've got further. 

We got multiagent training, got astronaut training, and then we've got our wings at the end of six months there. Then from there I was based in Smyrna, Tennessee. It's Seward Air Force Base where I flew C120 3s, which this was tactical air command. 

And our primary job was to drop paratroopers and make what we call assault landings, which we will come in on unprepared scripts and land on short runways. Short runway performance type aircraft had big stretch like this. Big huge things you can come and you could just crash the thing, it wouldn't hurt him. 

But it was made for rough runaways. 

And so so we did quite a bit of that, grew up before Bragg, North Carolina, and then opt for Campbell and Kentucky where one was, I think the first was it wanted the 82nd Airborne Division was the F. 

The other would drop those guys taking malformed and overtraining, things like that. 

And I can remember one time we were dropping some of these troops and one other paratroopers refuse to jump. He was just frozen, scared. And of course that is a big, big no-no. And it's just it's considered just the ultimate disgrace to do that. I really felt sorry for the kid because I saw him after he had landed. And here it comes carrying his parachute and two, you're just streaming down his face. 

And how about somebody pushed them out when they saved him from well, you know, they say Geronimo was any and for quick chauvinist. 

But anyway, it's a big disgrace to do that. 

T-half, they have to sit at a table with a yellow streak down the middle of it and really clarify how they make it go on and on. They make it and they they they give them another chance. I don't know whether they did or not. I tell you the truth. They might, but anyway, it was it was the ultimate disgrace to refuse the job. Of course, you know, we have these paratroopers, they had to do that. 

What's the therapy? 

Because it was they had to have the discipline and bigger up on these fellows to protect them later on. 

So after a whole year, year-and-a-half or trying to you pretty confident you would like to find? 

It was pretty okay. Yeah. Yeah, I loved it. We had a real goods quaternary short. 

Free 31st troop carrier, I think it was squadron, had an excellent squadron commander, name is kernel Marvel. He just a real popular and real down-to-earth guy. Then from there, they wanted to see what I'm 30s. It was the a model. 

The first model of C13 is to Derek came out. And about that time though I was about to or duty was up. And meaning you had completed what, three years? 

Well, it was actually just two years. Three years. Okay. And so I thought, well, gee, you know, this is pretty nice life. I had. I had a great job of flying airplanes and had a great bunch of guys as weird as it may be. 

I just told a sound over for indefinite status, which means that you could continue on and you know, and you didn't have a separation date. It was a commitment for at least one more year. 

Well, gee, I've got a great place here. I like Nashville shirt. 

So I did and as soon as our standard I went to number C is on the overseas list. They sent me to Japan. 

Just because they couldn't send you overseas if you unless you had a certain amount of time left to serve and there's not enough time to go over in Japan for about 14 months. Was that a tough assignment? 

No. It wasn't tough but kinda where she could have been in Korea. That's right. That's right. You got me to thinking though. I said, Do you know if they can have that much control over me where they can send me to live. 

The only way I could have gotten out, I would if I had a pregnant wife and I wouldn't be married into town. 

So there wasn't much of a choice. Swell. 

It got me to thinking in all the way, had a pretty nice assignment where I was we flew around to some other places that weren't so plush like evil Gemma, which is a little island about 600 miles from Japan and oh, I have a bunch of GIs there and that's it. It's little island, maybe three feet walk, three miles wide, and maybe four or five miles long. And there's a female under every tree but you weren't any tree. You could see how the hand raised yes. The struct for a year. 

I really feel sorry for him because every time we'd come onto land, it'd be a big crowd just watching this land because there was nothing else to do. Oh, boy. 

But that year came and went and you decided not to rehab? 

Well, I saw some other places like in Korea, you know, the basis There weren't that good. 

I had gotten up to when I was at short, we have a flat up to Greenland, up to sound a strong, which is above the Arctic Circle. And I say, God, these guys are stuck up here for a year. While I was there at scientist, Dr. Tom TTY, a temporary duty. 

They had a small little USO show had come in, you know, some entertainers to come in another two or three girls. And by Andrew something. 

These guys were just standing around looking at these, just staring at these females, you know, they hadn't seen for a year. I said, Gee, I don't know about this. 

So when the Option key on the output came, I said, Well, I think I will go tribe. I looked back home. 

So I got out and I had I wrote every airline in the United States, I think as far as for a job application, this is back in 1960. And the jets were first coming in. 

And not only were the airlines, they were not hiring, they were laying off because the jets were so much faster and they could carry so many more people that they just didn't have a business. 

So you weren't flying. No, I wasn't flying jets, but still there were a lot of prop planes with the airlines. 

Now the C13 I flew was just want to call it turbo prop is a prompt jitter, had a jet engine, but the jet engine turned to propel. It wasn't a pure jet. 

So I had a little bit of jet knowledge. 

But anyway, I came back to Atlanta. I said, Well, I don't want to go back to Pittsburgh. I think I'll just go to Atlanta and start from there. Of course, I was single and didn't have any responsibility except myself. 

So I came back to Tech more or less and at least two the area around there that I was really weird, I guess it was because I went through tactile, I came back to it now. I got a job with insurance company for trying to sell inch, which probably starved the stairs. It was not a real successful as well. I was only with them six weeks and I no, kept bugging Delta Airlines. And finally, they sent me a telegram. Come on out and interview with us. Josh. Oh boy. Oh boy. 

So I did. I went out there. It was it should be out here at eight o'clock. I was there about 730. 

I was waiting for him when they came in when he says You're not here it is it Well, you shouldn't eight o'clock. Eight o'clock. 

So here I am. 

So I interviewed. All went well and then a little rough week or so later I got this letter. I think I still have it. It says you have been hired for this class report on July the 25th, 1960s. 

And I can remember hooping around that apart, but the dollar and I mean, I was wounded, yelling and it happened. I was never so happy in my life is when I got that job offer. 

So here you are. You are you are going to become a Delta employee. 

And what happened next? 

Well, I was to report and on the 25th of July 1960, and as I was going in the door at that time, I run into another tick graduate is also in this same class. It's pretty Miller who was I had known from Tech. He was one of the first Carlos I saw. We had 25 guys in the class and they were first rela solid from Georgia Tech. 

But anyway, we what we did back then. You didn't go right into the pilot seat. You had to start off as a flight engineer. And all the while I had my pilot's license and my multi engine rating, my instrument rating. All right. Exacerbated. You had to also have a flight engineers rating by the FAA. And so our school primarily was to educators to take the exam for the flight engineer certificate. And so we did that and we got that done. Then we went on the line is just regular employees and crew crew members. 

So I'm on my first flight I think was to Detroit, DC six. 

How long did it take? 

How long was that class? 

Month or two months or five months? 

Oh, the class? 

Yeah. How long before he actually got about six months. 

So it was quite awhile of training them before you actually got your uniform and boarded a plane. Alright? 

And of all places, okay. To say, Well, you know, there was all this type of line was was a little different military. 

But I loved it. It was she liked it. It was still the right thing to do. 

I joined I joined the flat Android Pay Day and you didn't have to sell anybody anything, right? 

And I was glad, yeah. 

So Atlanta became home-based? 

Yeah. 

I spent my whole 33 years the airline in Atlanta, although we had hello, The base is Dallas, Miami, Chicago. And then eventually they put even bases and they can New York and Boston was the merged with other. 

But you stay right here in Atlanta. 

Well then what happened here is 196061. 

By just about the time that I was getting out of this financial year school and got my reading, I went to a party that in out in Buckhead that I had been invited to Person.new. And there I met Francis, my wife, and I saw this tractive girl over there. She had kind of a bubbly personality. 

And so I was talking to her and I got to talk to you a little while during the party and make it move and get her phone number? 

Yeah, I got a phone never got her phone number and I called her up and we started dating. I think the first place we went was the theater. The paramount. It was not a theater. Was it wasn't the Rialto that Columbus Columbus was over there? 

No. It was one of the other words, downtown. The ordinary out to widen the parameter was the other one. Could have been. Could have been. Yeah, I guess it was low. 

So we went out and I remember this is your pay this time I had to put a rich delta man. I didn't even do what a friend of mine used to do when he was a kid. He says, Well, I'll meet you in sad blobby, escorted her through the door. Vendors well, are moving. 

But anyway, we went out to AdWords link to Johnny ribs. And he had there was a particular Schnupp, an early head, it was pecan pie or something. Real good. Oh, you were going right for this show. 

We started dating and then I went on the line with the airline, which means what became right of the crew, crew member m dot a lot then you were coming and going right now. 

But first couple of years, I couldn't hold a regular trip like a regular schedule. 

They had to have so many people in reserve in case say somebody gets sick or goes on vacation or for some reason you can't fly the flight and they have to have these extras or less are substitutes to sell their land. 

So what's your head to be about the phone all the time. Hello. 

And in those days, they didn't have beepers earnings that you had to literally be very moved by the phone and they gave us a couple of days off a week where we could go up to power something we've wanted. When I was dating Frances, She lived not too far from what I did. I would just go over to her house and I'd call up. The airport says, Well, I'm going to wet this telephone number. Two will drop know 1011 o'clock, then I'll be back here. 

So I would go over to her house. We'd have watched TV and should time she could fix me suffer. And really had a good deal there. I want to spend any money. How long did it take you to court her that way? 

We worked together, I guess about two years. How you took your time? 

Well, we were married in June of 62. 

Well, I guess it was maybe not quite two years. We have gone together. And she was from senior town. We were married sheet or tau. And then we have bought a little house out in east point. You're the airport. How convenient as really good rush. It was about maybe ten minutes from airport and it was very nice, particularly if I was on call. 

So we've lived over there, had our first child, had David, and then we had our second child, daughter Katherine. And by then we had outgrown this little house. 

We had I think it was eight to 1600 square feet, something like one very big lesson that we had three small bedrooms and a bath and a half, and that was about a kitchen and living here and read anyway. Then as applying co-pilot jet by them and make it a little bit better money. 

So we had bought a little nicer house out on broccoli or furrowed and Claremont area and not quite as close to the airport, so you don't do a lot more driving. 

But it was a nice area to nice hall where we still have the home place to raise a good place to raise kids. Did when we were there. We moved in in March. And then that next June, my third child was born, Billy. All our kids were raised there in that house, went to high school or college. My oldest son and my daughter both went to college in South Carolina. They saw the partial football scholarship. 

And Catherine like to school, so she decided to ask her if she wanted to go up on my youngest went to Georgia Tech. 

But you did jacket. And he was one of those crazy architecture students stay up all night long. 

So he, he got, spent four years as an undergraduate and then two years in graduate school. 

But now he's he's working with a church as a youth ministry of the church and our neighborhood. How interesting an architect. He decided he didn't want to be an architect. He, he had this one here's going through high school. We had a guy get involved his young life. And he had it flew here, was pretty well, are strongly influenced by them. And he When he got out of Tech, he said, Well, I just think I want to do that. 

And he did, he did finish up as to his allies, his school, he never did get his finished the masters part. I mean, he was he came just within a few months or a few weeks. Really rare. And he job with Chick-fil-A. Nobody airport as he was in there as architectural department out there. And they said, well, you don't need to have a degree to work in your job. 

So thank you for either. 

If you hadn't taken that job, you've probably finished it up. Anyway, he did and he got interested in this region, a youth minister. And he'd been doing it just in his free time all these years. You've been going to take it, but you're doing it on a part-time basis just on his free time. He decided he wanted to go into it full time. 

So the trach say what you really want to do this. He says, Yeah, that's what I want to do is while you're doing it. And tetanus, Let's go back to the oldest boy, David, my oldest is a Here's a salesman. He works for the South lifted makes labels, pressure sensitive labels. And he's done really well with them and he is better at sales and his dad definitely want to. Catherine studies. 

So Catherine majored in education and she teaches and she teaches the third grade indicator screw system. And she's enjoys her job. She David is married and has two children, one to stepchild, one is his own child. Tell me their names. 

Well, Katie is this little daughter. It's about seven months old and Tyler is is a little steps on, super, super jealous. And Taylor is a great fellow. He loved to come up with the lake. What about Catherine? 

Okay. Kathleen is not married, but she had her dog, chevy. 

That's where the grand Doug comes out of this the grand dog and she is enjoys being at Catherine to pay. And she has her house. Not too far from where we live in Atlanta. And how about Billy? 

Billy is married to Joy Fletcher and they live out in Cobb County now. And joy from California and just a suite of girls you'd ever meet. And he loved to come up the lake. 

Now let's talk about the wake. 

Hey, there, How long have you had the place up here? 

Well, we had about 2627 years ago we bought an old plywood Kevin, that on the same line. We have now. And we just every summer would come up here and just more or less spend a summer vacation up here. 

Of course, I had the perfect job for something like this and I could work maybe three or four days and have a couple of days off a week. And so our kids have been raised up during the summer time. And we first came up here. This was it wasn't very well known place, I guess. You can buy a place up here for just about nothing. 

But then as the years progressed, this place has really caught on and a lot of people coming up while people ability to real nice homes. And so last year about this time, we had, we'd been thinking for a long time about wellness. Either expand our old house or else just tear it down and start a new and build a new one. 

So our old place was an old red plywood cabinet had been built by a retired New York firemen back into 50. And then it was o strictly country carpentry work. It wasn't something to restore though exactly. 

Well, not exactly. We've got into it. Not weird. 

Added a couple of bedrooms and we'd added my boys and I had built on a deck and we'd built a boat house and we'll put some rails down so we can roll the boat down into water. 

But this place was back then people would just buy these places and the peep, the plate and the things that they bid on them would be just whatever work or bare minimum for the necessities. 

Have a roof over your head while you're having a water skiing or fishing or doing or whatever you want to do. 

So for years, we went along that way. We have nationalist screen porch and it had three bedrooms and a bath and a half. 

But anyway, that was found, you know what, I never worried about it because you want anything worth worrying about. Oh, you didn't have anything valuable up here. 

But when I retired and 93, we started thinking about maybe getting a little nicer place. 

So we had talked to some builders up here and at first we thought, well, we'll just add onto our other place. 

But it was the way it was built on the roof line was such that it couldn't be done very easily. 

So it was just about as economical to go ahead and just tear it down and build this, which we did. And this is a start from scratch or start from scratch from one year ago. This place was not here. It was all trees and woods and we had a writ of cabinet sits out where the grass is now. The Calvin came down and all of this came up. Yeah. That's right. Good decisions. 

Well, yeah. Were tickled with replays. We've spent more time here now. Yeah, we do. And this is will be our primary residence. We've met so many good friends up here and lot of tech people up here. When you look back on your career with delta, 33 years. 33.5 years. Yeah. It was a good decision. You enjoyed it. Did you enjoy it as much at the end as you did at the beginning? 

Yeah. You never got it. Never got tired of fighting. 

Well, I never got tired of fly. 

But probably the best flying was when I went, I was earlier in my career when they weren't quite as many restrictions on you and you could do more of what she wanted to do, but it was back then they had more of the the captain was in a command and he has the responsibility, It's his responsibility. And a lot was left up to him to develop his own style. 

But as the air craft got a little more complex and things technology progressed, airplanes were a little more complicated and procedures little more complicated. They've got to wear it. 

Well, let's get more standardized. We'll also do the same thing the same way. And so it became a little more structured. And it took a lot of the individuality out there, more than one way to skin a cat. 

And there are a lot of captains and I flew with, when I was flying Copart, they did things differently, but there was a reason for them doing it and a good valid reason for doing it, but their own particular way. 

But one like that, where it is not that like that anymore. And my last 3.5 years with delta H flu International, which was it was interesting and it was exciting, but it was kinda hard on her sleeping arrangements for you. We would normally leave in the evening. Then you fly all night and you get over Europe. 

So it kinda messes your sleep. Your biological clocks are all cycles up. 

But it was more, that was more work than playdough, I think. Because when you think about it, delta is a regular person. They say, oh lucky dog to fly everywhere in the world. That So do you get to fly anywhere you want to go? 

There only if there is a secret available. The county has all these little catch. There been all around the world. 

Well, we've had some nice trips. I took our hope that was one of the little perks that the airline you could fly anywhere. 

Delta went for free back then, and you can still, but if the seats are not as readily available as they used to be, because more and more people are flying, flying and the load factors are higher than they used to be. 

But it was very, very nice thing. It was educational for the kids because they've I could take them too. We took them to Europe watch window. Why? 

A couple times. Francis and I have taken some real nice trips. 

But since I've retired, we've we've had some nice trips, but I just kinda locked to get out and drive in a car. 

So I need to fly anywhere anymore. 

Well, there's no hurry to get anywhere and I just kind of like to drive so that it's no longer one of your big passions to be flying something? 

No, no, not much. That's safer. 

But we do like to go on trip. 

What are your primary interests as a fresh new retiree? 

Just wondering, enjoying this wonderful space up here. 

Well, right now, I've got so many projects Jared would face. I'm going to be dead for and get them all done. I'm going to remodel the garage. I've got to put up the roof flat on it. And there's so many things with a new place like this that I'm going to have to be have to be done. We got to landscaping to do. And since I'm retired, I love that stuff I can do is just take a while. Yeah. It's you know, I keep busy and I got involve one winter I think in refreshed and some furniture. And Francis, his parents had an old 19 thirties type bedrooms. Sweet, sweet, very nice. 

But as the years went by, they got worn down, so they they had repainted and everything and so I got that down, strip it down in refinished it to where it looks pretty nice. 

Gave it to my daughter because she wanted We're lucky, busy like that, do have joy doing things like that. Without the bureaucracy of filling out the form the way everybody else does. 

Your story has been really, if somebody who's been very blessed, you've been very fortunate, very fortunate. I've been very fortunate. You found the right spouse in the right job. 

You were in the right place at the right time, even even to the time that Bobby dad didn't show up, it was still you would bear, which gave you that advantage that a started at all if you'd been there, my life management different. It's looking back, it's been a very fortunate life and you indeed have been blessed. 

Well, I think I'll believe you. 

Brian, I've been very fortunate and very lucky and so large, so fortunate to be able to go to Georgia Tech. And I didn't realize it at the time. I thought, well away from your scholarship is what college, just like anything else. 

But I realize now how fortunate I was able to go to such a fine we'll thought off institution. They say every year you're away. 

Your esteem for it grows longer the distance away, the more it grows, because the realization of the value of it comes back to you. Like I told my son, the word YOLO, he didn't finish it. 

Architecture, the fact that you've got a degree of rational or irrational Science degree from Georgia Tech will open a lot of doors for me. It's always gonna be there for you. Always want to open the doors. Thank you for taking the time to tell us your story today. We really enjoyed hearing it. Well. Thank you so much. Thank you.