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>> This is a living history interview with Dr Robert Gibbs Jr class of nineteen forty one and directed by Marilyn summers on July the twenty fifth the years twenty thirteen. We are at the Claremont police board room in Decatur Georgia and the subject of our interview today his life in general his experiences at Georgetown.

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We're so pleased to be here with you Dr Gupta thank you for giving us some of your time. So we're going to start right in the beginning I want to know where you were born and when. I was born and it landed Georgia on St Charles Avenue in the home of.

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Seven. Right in the home. Mama didn't go to the hospital there was a paragraph from Saddam epidemic and people were choosing a parent or not to have done in the hospital and that was the reason it was the influenza had come through there just just in the early parts and of eighteen and beginning in one thousand maybe that was still a worry.

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And yeah what were mom and daddy doing in Atlanta Georgia. Why were you born in letters that were they were from. They're both from North Georgia father was from mother from Clark Georgia. And my father was working apparently at Rich's at that time. I'm not real sure about that but he did work for riches about that same time and that they were in Atlanta living where you the firstborn correct I am the only child.

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You were to only a child. All right. So first born an only child the heir apparent the little prince. That's correct. All right so Mom and Daddy had settled into St Charles there and had you. Do you remember your grandparents on your father's side. I never knew my grandfather on either side of that for they both died before I was born so you never had a grandpa then never knew a grandfather on either side.

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And you both know my grandmother very well though let's talk about your dad's mother first tell me about her. I wish I'd have other was a fine lady and I spent time with her time that she was something Cornelia correct on the farm outside of Philly and delightful person and work on the farm.

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And she was a hard working woman you're saying Room No she would not hired she was I said hard hard working hard as yeah she had hard all of her life and had six children and she was a widow because you Center that time yet. So when you knew where she was a widow and she had raised six children your dad was one of six that.

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That's correct. Number two in the law and it's very common for them to have big families to help work. The farm. So your daddy you up on the farm and then you got to go back and have fun on the farm. Maybe that's correct. What did you call her what name did you either by was it Grandma or another name was on the walk over grandma grandma or what was her name.

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Do you remember what her real name was me maybe. So you just call her Grandma. But that would not have already your name that's what we all called out. Also you did color or something then OK No no I call them. I don't nor even I for member what her given name was noted but I don't know when I came yet that was about.

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OK really is good we can distinguish that and that's true. And so here's your daddy one of six children the second one and he makes his way vengefully to the city of Atlanta to work in the richest apartment stories that's correct. So he was a salesman. You know he was a bookkeeper they call him and will always have the special being and I count it now he's called a bookkeeper.

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Well then he must have had some education to teach him how to keep books where he was if he had worked in the bank and clocks Well that's where he met my mother. Ha. OK The story is developing now. So where did he go to school. That he was born in commerce and the family moved to a young very young I don't really know exactly where but he went to school was I know most of just to go to college.

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He learned enough about accounting in high school to go work at the bank there and learn more probably probably true. I don't really know what we can surmise and I don't know. If you know if he had gone to college you wouldn't know or yes I would have known that I know you did not go to call him so he he was a self-made man as you say there might say he learned to come up that way and worked in the bank and then came to riches to work and counting.

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Sometime during the course of the accident. You know if he was ever in World War one. No she would He was a modern world war. So he managed to escape that apparently So that's interesting that he managed to do that since you were born in one thousand nine hundred he didn't have a family yet but he could have been married already.

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When the war he was married fourteen. Well that's a good. Explains. So now let's talk a little bit about your mother's mother didn't know your grandfather on that side and she's doing you know your grandmother. Tell me about her which violate a Shia family. Apparently they began outside clocks Georgia and apparently my grandfather who say never.

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You died and somewhere along in there they moved and cogs way over the town of logs. And rather large house because five of them my mother was the oldest of that family and it may have been that grandfather was with her when they moved into town. I can't be sure of that but I eventually died as I say Well before I was born my grandmother having no maids of NGO I want so I turned the house and the whole tale and it became known as the free hotel unclog So her name was free.

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It was not for a budget was made but I think great to make for a name that attracted attention I see who ran a very fine hotel throughout most of my really life and she died in one nine hundred thirty six of the. During the course of what should have been a simple operation but she died in one thousand nine hundred eighty six and you remember that moment that quite well yeah what did you call her Grandma I guess I think you can't remember any other name for her.

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How do you distinguish which grammar you were talking about her name. Ogden Craig. You could have been free. So I don't recall any name. I asked because very often people have nicknames for grandparents as I say about other grandmotherly It's called a meaning but she was not a name to me.

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Yeah yeah. What's your earliest memory earliest thing you can remember. Well. Somewhere along in earlier days and I was still one of two years old. My father my mother and father both moved back to Clarksville and stayed there about two years and then I just they can remember moving back to Atlanta.

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When I was a lot of three years old and why did they move this time and when I already here near Little Five Points when I had to room was OK. Jan and bedroom with the family who own the house and rated those rooms out to us and I remember those days I had just one bathroom for the whole house and looting the people all of the house as well as us but we lived there first years and I was only about three or I was about three years old when I came so you can run with the house look like in your mind organizer you know that I stayed away and it's still there.

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I drive by every two or three years just to check it out of curiosity. Yet. So where did you start school when it was time to start school I started when I was. Five years old. The first time that the city of Atlanta schools had a kindergarten. I first came to garden by the light of school system and it was down the straight the bottom of the about five or six hundred yards from where we lived close and I was more than a **** and the kindergarten was on all alpha Ave backing up through the campus of Mormon school which actually fronted on.

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Straight now. Jason's phrase but I spent six years at more than **** and then went to bass theory and high school were just there were some other hundred fifty yards from the warmest year on year in the kindergarten and then when you were six years old. You started first grade and I first through sixth grade first.

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Well in school and then they had junior high. That's very nice and I was bad fairly high school where that night probably seventh eighth and ninth grade order to go all the way through then they deny this. Correct. That's right. And then from they had a Boys' High School.

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That's the one you went to with Boys High always had finished it boys and then to take a course. All right now let's go back to the very very early days when you were just a little kid. How did the family celebrate holidays what would you have done at Christmas or Easter.

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We could have gone to one of the grandma's house or how was your celebration. My mother and I little place a little place in the room was on the counter. We had a false last letter of the room and it. I have a number of days that several times when we had a bad day for the next several years.

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We did that and that would have been about nineteen. Twenty two or twenty three starting there and then along about things were not going good financially and yeah and father changed jobs and I don't remember exactly what I would get doing. But he was just doing not way But he was anybody else watching those days and then this thing began to work for a while as a bookkeeper a tire company owner will be able to and then open his own tire company about nineteen twenty seven or twenty eight and he bought the house next door to where we had raided the rooms and we lived in that house for several years so you had the whole house that tied actually correct had the whole Have we did read out one room and every one of the every time every person who ever lived there was a riddle in a one room was a teacher who was only three or four I'm not talking about a whole lot of people.

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But it was the habit for you to grant to a teacher like this that I feel no safe place. I don't think I was in the class with any of the teachers but then nineteen twenty nine the bottom dropped out of the Depression took place. He lost his job.

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I lost this tie common a penny. We lost the house and then me just struggled along for a good many years through this thirty thirty days. So you can remember all of that very their way. Yes well we moved. And you know childhood was definitely one of of awareness.

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I think about when I joined the Boy Scouts and I. There he was on they struggled and able to pay for a scout uniform probably which total and everything else cost about seven dollars and I was in a struggle over there and we get that that yeah they're sure that we did it and they did it for you.

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They were good parents ride and you had very good parents. That's correct. And they kept you going and did your mother ever work outside the home. Yes he got the way she had to do something to help out and help and so she sold corsets. How interest or shipping and I remember he would make it much money if I was NOT have made much money in those days by their feet.

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She accumulated enough money and bought me a great big single volume encyclopedia that I wanted to. My goodness. And what a great memory that is you know I know you were thrilled to have your own book encyclopedia. Yeah. And there was water for me to have that I mean those were you always a good student.

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Did you like going to school. I didn't object to going to school. You see so I was just an average student I didn't make any high grade. No particular low grades and you know. Did you enjoy going to school. It's all recall I never thought you know without going into doing what we do that everybody went to school.

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Neighborhood in this where had everyone I went to school. Nobody gave it much though if you just went and did your job. And. But but some sometimes you know if you didn't do well in school to get upset with you know you get them upset you know I don't think I ever got them upset my suppliers.

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Every time every time when you got to junior high. Did you get involved in any kind of that flooding stuff and I played baseball in the group but we didn't have a what we call sandlot just down the corner from the like that but you never played with teams in school though I did not now when I got into boys high school I did become a member of the French.

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Well that's unique and I carried on with that and to Georgia Tech and the fencing it was not a popular thing I don't know whether it was very popular with a lot of people in that not a lot of people several people that were interested in it so we had a pretty good team and we had a current member when I was in Boise when I was in Boy's High School we felt really good with Georgia take financing and then when I went to Georgia Tech I became a member of the vetting team as well as a rifle team had tipped and I did but was high school when you were boys high school they had a coach Stanford for fencing correct.

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And they had all the equipment you needed to have so you were taught all the powers I know they had their equipment I have you didn't have to buy anything I do not recall buying a gun at me and the mask we're there for you Do you know what piqued your interest.

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Why would you have already accepted our. Not I don't recall that we even had a competing I guess I just wasn't much of a football or baseball player at all in the early days. You weren't a real big person either you were you were just like your bill or I never got the lower one hundred twenty you were going to put one hundred twenty pound guy in a football field and kill you you know I wouldn't know so that was a good alternative for you learn calling me just like I did that in Boys' High School and then continued a rifle team to it and we're going to go live on take.

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We'll talk about that a little bit later. Let's go back to boys I go back to back. What did you do for your team that what did youngsters do in one thousand nine hundred twenty S. and early twenty's and early thirty's did you where there was a movie you might have gone to or did you get I don't time job and I did not.

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And that's not true. I delivered the magazine as I wonder who went on I would love a paper. I had a job with an organization which picked me up and I have to **** about four days including Saturday. Five days I guess what. I voted for five days.

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And person came in pick me up with a couple other people and we would we would go around the houses and apartments selling magazines and it was the Saturday Evening Post and The other thing of all years and they were the previous months all the rubbish and Kate and we were a pair of Dame wants to get rid of.

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Lots of folks had not seen it at that time was a good price. No I still paid Saturday Evening Post of the months it was a weekly magazine at that time and it went for five cents and that's what we sold it for. And I'm not pay for the free and I have our for routine.

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I was fifteen cents an hour. And so I made a little over forty seven cents for the afternoon and and twice that much on Saturday and it worked all. That's pretty good now. Did your parents let you keep the money you earned or did you try to be an Yes I had my money and.

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The depression was so severe. I remember buying my own Christmas present one time. Really lived that same that same year. My father gave me a Christmas present a book which I like and wanted a parody I always thought I did anyway. And it had somebody else's name in it.

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Thank you no harm. Smears or something like that. Happy birthday. John Smith or something like that he'd paid twenty five cents for and that's all he had I said that was the year I paid three dollars for a you but your stuff a Boeing air. That's of the Depression.

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Yeah but I'm sure you will like to go to the movie theater ever. Yes we had a movie in and Little Five Points. It was clear to me and there isn't that I think the building is appealing as if you have an function no no. Instead of. Still there.

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Probably not but I was about cost a dime I think whether to go it all the kids or neighborhood when ever there was a big old if not a good morning. Was a big day and we could. We could get up come of money needed and pay the ten dads for the cereal movies that we were seeing and later all on my mother's first cousin and I can't recall the date of their out of place but she took me to the retailer felt they had a would use their way.

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Yes and her first cousin was manager I was a reality show at that time things had picked up a little bit by that time money wise I'm sure. And so you got to me was still ten cents Yeah but I think we got he had for nothing. So I always go to the first time.

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Yeah that was in one thousand twenty second. I and. This man as a manager something GOOD went to Washington as a movie theater in Washington D.C. and did not live long. I don't know and I never knew I remember him but I don't remember for the life of that.

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With that. That said out of context in the sense of time I don't remember exactly what the doctor gives only think about your childhood. Although you had far from being well off you. You managed to get by. Would you still say you had to have no yeah well everybody else was pretty well down in the same boat and same boat.

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Exactly. And then you didn't think about it too much food and he would pay much attention to you my family. Maybe they would get enough food to eat and. So you were happy and good to get out of the way you know that's right. My mother made some of my clothes he made a jacket for me and things like that.

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So yeah. So we but we behaved and then we didn't feel the problem different from anybody else. I think it was the staff. Yes the Piggly Wiggly. That was a big I guess a little five going definitely a place I knew in those days. Yeah that was your stomping grounds because I frightened I thought I might you know they've changed over the years by all that you know I mean it was a happy time where you could walk anywhere you wanted in your parents' own way of it where you had no car.

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Nobody worried about you even. Well and you were able to go Absolutely have to remember that I somehow got away just as I was running away I walked over to a little boy for whether my we live. And my grandmother on my father's side was visiting us I guess and my mother was working and my father was working and she began to worry about me.

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So she started up toward a Little Five Points and on more than Ave There was a place where the entrance was barred by two very large a lot and sitting on post and I was scared of that and I remember that I crossed the Straight to be Rio On the other side of the street and my grandmother caught up me about caught up with me about that time and got me home and you know I was probably I think streets I was probably only I was six years old when I tell young to be out wandering around by yourself.

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That's true. I remember that fifty three happened to get hold of. And I was on the wrong side of this ready to take survey because I was scared of the line just them funny how you can remember something I thought so clear. Well the way people my age are you going to move us anyway back ya know what I care or what I did day before yesterday.

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Guess what. I don't care what you did for us. I only want to hear about way back yonder what was going. What was life like for your family get on the bus and go into downtown Atlanta did you ever go to riches Yes we didn't have any busted street cars but the street car shriek Yeah I know everywhere the way it went by street cough.

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Would you gone up constantly on that no one. How would you know about I'll have it you the street call that would indicate a came out to Caleb Ave I was very close to us on the other end of the street was a street call that went through Little Five Points and and went up a joint Ave hand to town.

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I can picture and so we had that feel I saw you that way either way and you the he was the one down about on here. I I started taking him violin lessons. You me that so you know I was about to I couldn't have been was that right.

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Years old. I don't think. And we would by mother and I would go down to the to the street and catch the bus that went through Little Five Points all the way to the color of Ponce de Leon and all and then having you. And there we would change street cause street call that went up constantly an avenue to Valenti which is there's a big donut place.

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Right at that same place and I think that's your corner. Yeah. It's just that she was in the owner of the house. Right right. At that near that place and we'd ride. I take my life and get on the street. Come on. Ryback and fame costs and it went on for several years.

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So you get to play fairly well within several recitals and I don't know when I will take the good but I I think your dad and you did enjoy all of that and then when I got into high school and feel like I gave it up. Yeah. And then went back to it after I came back from the Navy and what sort of good for you.

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Short while but I was so involved with I think I continued to take lessons through through some of medical school and then I had to quit completely because I was interning in the gym and had no way to get away who you must've had a real interest in it but like I said I think it's wonderful that I bring there it's only been a couple of years ago that I gave my violin to some group who played and came in and played for the place at Clam auto show and I just said hey they are always looking good.

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You people who didn't have any money they were and so I just gave them my own I was married. I knew so much will let you ever get straight. I Possibly I drive down to just filler field. Did you ever go see the crackers. Bob you know I was too close to the ballpark I walked to the ballpark and that was during the day for the crackers were playing and I have a good man.

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Time down either the charge was practically nothing. And so often you go. They have a bunch of telephones and oddly enough you go and look in the telephone and it always be two or three nickels in there and so you know you could make money go in the maze by doing not make you proud and not making money but at least not spending any more like.

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And so I went to the games for a good many times. And then to follow that up when I raced medical school and practicing medicine I went back not uncommonly through the crack I was still playing and I would be I would sit and this day and I don't always notify they all face that I was there.

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If a call came and they would come out and notify me they were kind enough to do they have a good system. I have a number of times. I'm not good many times several times and say that. I got calls and went out made a house call turned around came back saw the rest of the game or said life Dr began practicing medicine because it is a child going to those games a happy memory for you.

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That's right. And of course I lived on a street just about three blocks from the from the crack of stadium. So it was easy. You know they called Holyfield and they still are feel special. You know but one more thing. Yeah I think that's what they called it was field Earl man.

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No. It has always him. I'm number of times I use it. Yeah it was probably not. Yeah they're right. It still is. Out of that but I bet. Says Bill it was Bill file I was in Atlanta. That's right. I'm the only. Building that no more Hotel was built.

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When you were you know I don't know about the building one hundred twenty six. But I would guess it was at that late. Yeah it was one hundred twenty six and then nineteen twenty nine the Fox Theatre because I remember that for a wonderful place where we still got it.

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Yeah yeah we saved a few things. Yeah a lot of federal buildings higher the living and they and the two other big buildings were there before I knew anything about them. I was too young to know I think I already built he had the camera was there and Canada building Yeah and the Georgian Terrace was there and well it's apartments that was I think that the ride all go away and then I was didn't change that much about right at that particular area there's.

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All right let's go back to we're still in your childhood and I we've established that you have really happy child but that it happened I thought long did you stay with the Boy Scouts once you got into place is that was a really nice thing for kids to have a very large.

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That was when you talk about this. Like I would like to do the Boy Scouts for a major portion of my life and I've stayed in the Boy Scouts ever member of the crew a lot of about sixteen years ago Scout and I said you might say five as I made eagle and I didn't thirty five.

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See we're going to put that on your your page because that's not Congressman to male bastard you remember. Alright Babington. That's being done that a stealth master would have a lot of influence on your life or to figure I was a line a fella and the reason I got into that group was because my closest friend who went all the way from first grade through Georgia to those who knew the Babington's and he joined that group and I went with here on my own was just a friend Harry for my sister OK So very friendly then they fail fail here where four days apart in age she sent back Grant and still have all of the eleventh of May when I was born on the seventh and let me close you will man right because you're fourteen.

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Yeah exactly. The same age isn't that fun Now granted you have a friend for such a long time with my scouting time picked up again when my son well you get to that a very very clear and happy just did you ever get to go camping trips. Lots of times we didn't get to go far because there's no way to travel.

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Marjorie didn't do it forever and. The old Boy Scout camp was up just above Marietta. But Adams Boy Scout care sure yet. BURNETT And we were there. So you would not comment to several times a year. Where you made a few short trips around the community but never went a long place not hope didn't have cars and those but we had no cars so it wasn't like you went in the summer for two weeks or something you didn't go off to camp or did you the croup one month of.

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And I say that here i week for twenty eight people. What would be a fall through. We didn't have that many people so we got two weeks with the people we had and so we've spent our first week of the two week who are going to have and for somebody to the other attracted somebody whose attention I was at where did you go.

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This is a very it was they had a week. And then instead of going home. I will probably went home and I came back they gave me the end of waiting two weeks maybe end of a delay and then the third came back for the fourth on the fourth way because just two weeks for the troops.

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I had four full weeks you'd better have missed what a great memory that is has dried that's why you got to do everything and work on your badges some of it. Yes I was helping a group who had a special program during that two weeks that I was still only thirteen years old of I think of the thirty first or second year I was in it's current it was like a third year possibly but they were the scouting organization that ran their data was that time had what they call a trip out from the bird up.

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Could they owe to so you live in tension and came back to bear that of us and I was involved with that mainly rains the entire time I was living in the old stand by myself in the red it rained and rained and rained I remember going to one of the trip which is probably only a couple miles from where the.

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Maybe on the backside of the other camping area but it was not where they had the building. It seemed like you were out in the country that's exactly right and they were going to cook on a fire watch all of the night and I with a never could get the fire started raining so hard to do year by anyway so you get to practice your bow and arrow.

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Yes. Yeah I did that film. Yeah I wish we had a wonderful swimming bird Adams and a delightful program for spent. I think we spent writing did you get on the road we did not have horses. Then I had a lake a small lake played a big rough and I had canaries and they had just one of them swimming through it which is what you would look forward to most when they let you go in the pool if it was raining.

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Or one of the rain so much when we were actually at the camp. I was in the rain to wait for her right to life. But I was able to some time during that time I got the hardest bird badge of the bunch which is lifesaving Come on.

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I won the great fly by but you had to be a slam and I had gotten acquired merit badges and I had to get you got the wife saying showing up at how well do you remember what your project was for Eagle Scout you take on some special projects did in those days then no special project.

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OK And I don't remember that we have this acquiring it by time it bad is correct. OK you have gotten to that yet but I was very much in the Scout program when my son. Right right. And whether or not. Something's changed that day and the program that you're talking about killing far.

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That's correct. Here it was not at the time. Unmarried bed is required. That was all. That's wonderful. It's a lot of work to get twenty turn about for you and you're competing with yourself you know to get it done. So really wonderful. All right let's talk about your days at boys' time you had your choice.

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You could have gone to tech or boys and they were both close to your house and I could I just say barely Yeah yeah. And both close to your house know your parents influencing you that you were going to go to college talking about them and never talk about it never did.

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So you got to choose which one you want to go to or yeah if and you just pose high because that one. Why did you have no idea. I don't think most of my friends that I would have kicked around with went to Boys time **** and it's kind of like following the crowd they're following the crowd the people I knew the the fellow who are from affiliate I spoke about being such a great friends family is called me every day every few weeks from now on I call here I want I want and I will both and what they call the Excel rated class.

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I bet bass hash hero and he went through and pretty for a year ahead of me and I was in the exaggerated class to what I got sick and was out about two weeks. And exaggerated claims went so fast petrified just that I couldn't catch up and I went back to regular school when I finished Boys' High **** i made by a few of the high school you know yeah I have to he did and of course he went to Boys High and manful I went there.

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When actually going to follow and go with him. Of course and I've been part of a number of my good friends and but generally speaking we talk about boys high we're talking about college prep you know where you're taking more academic courses. That's tough to hold of correct and that would have been the right place for you if you had been eating celery they were going to medical you know that wasn't even crossing your mind never home never going to vote.

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Well you know it's just what the families were pushing in your case or maybe love you make your own choice rather lay I was apparently doing well enough that they never had a good word only her you know when you got to boys high. Did they have an R O T C program there Marcelo mandatory.

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Or object. I asked. Thank you. Was optional and you acted for option what I did or that kind of. The right. It was an Army Air O.T.C. practice correct. I thought I was so you got a uniform and you drilled you did everything to do a lot of people are so surprised that a high school would have that that was part of the way things are very much so very much so.

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So much that you like learning the drills and doing all of that was a good act and the doctor ordered a rifle. That's where you were introduced to how to handle a rifle. That's correct because your father never took you out hunting or did anything like that. You know you know.

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He was still he was what we call a bookworm he was that with you. I don't I feel I know. Yes I did do what he could he worked so hard you had to right to keep everybody together. So you get to high school. That's a whole different world for you down there.

[00:43:33]
It's a social world because I understand that the boys high school although it was all boys often had dances and social activities with girls and that remark that I knew of you were not there at Rada and I don't recall that. Taking place for March or a lot about that hi guys.

[00:43:55]
About the dances and how they had to go to Margaret's there to learn how to dance with the players. Yes I knew that I paid you a lot of people what the dancers do yeah they had a place I would have paid Mark. Park. Yeah there was one Peachtree near Fifth Street I think maybe there may have been it's a one.

[00:44:17]
Yeah that's close to pavement park you say they would go to to learn how to dance. So they could behave That's right that's right your mama didn't make you take dance. Heaven. No I never was a BAD for anything like that but you were taking the fancy which is very graceful very important agent so you were getting you know how to handle yourself didn't you know forever well we have good moves good.

[00:44:44]
Yeah right side Marciano. And so what did you do for social life when you were in high school then if you want to if you weren't dating What were you doing for your social life and high school. Well I was very much into the tricks shown above you didn't mention that before which church was it good.

[00:45:07]
Here was bad. There's OK you know what member great big church up on account of our family and on holiday when you're right we all go by that all the time. That's right. So that you know did they have a huge thing. They had Y.M.C.A. or do you come to the call of know what I'm seeing no no that's not quite right but they had a program was a very also involved.

[00:45:41]
Older people as well. The. Mission they would have a social get togethers they would have been always had church in the evening keep you and they see if they could keep you right. I was right and voice. That was a very large part of my life at that time it.

[00:45:59]
I've been to that school and I guess that's about all of. In those days too. At about that time when you gave up a Boy Scout you have to finish that sixty you told me about sixty. Yeah. So then what. How old were you when you graduated from Boys High.

[00:46:15]
Well I would grow very boys and I did thirty six. I think you know thirty five when I graduated from because you came to Georgia Tech in one thousand nine hundred thirty seven when I gave you always have and so you sat on regular Boys' High School. But you came to Georgia Tech in one nine hundred thirty six.

[00:46:40]
No I don't know. Why do you thirty seven. Most of in thirty seven of anything forty one. Yeah OK you did it before. As I was mighty Georgia taking thirty seven. So I graduated High School in and thirty seven. I guess I would have to go around. How did it happen that you decided to go to college.

[00:46:59]
Was it because Harry was going seemed like the most people seem to be going to college and of course the college tuition the Georgia Tech with twenty dollars a semester there on a semester program. And it cost me twenty dollars twice for the family letters to get that up and then you could course you could commute come you know why you went back and why all of the cleverest of her for I was who was a year ahead of my Because of the right.

[00:47:37]
They picked me up and I had a car and I bet we didn't. So they just took you to school to then I walked all the way the boys high school and I finished bass walking to ban task. And and we'll talk about a little farther walk than that.

[00:47:58]
So I lived in that time we moved over to Bonaventure Avenue which. Up the street from the ballpark. OK And that's the reason I was so close to the ballpark and Sears Roebuck and I I finished exactly there walking the bass from there way for a couple of hours every day.

[00:48:22]
Welcome both ways. And then finish bass and walk down the railroad track. The boys high school and then when I started college. We had moved over to Morningside. And the Flemish picked me up for three that return me to Georgia Tech but I walked all the way home from plenty of exercise and just started to think you know it's like you said earlier you don't worry about if you give all to no problems.

[00:49:00]
And I tell you what it was like to come to Georgia Tech your friend was already there. So he probably told you some things about it. Well probably a little bit. I was going to be a and electrical engineer because he was all that was your plan so I play rather than a I've never taken any chemistry.

[00:49:16]
And my first few chemistry which was required at the freshman. Yeah I was a freshman I came in strange strange then to chemical engineering. That's how that came on I had cable. Just because of the fascination. I had tried. What was your temp like you know States much much smaller of course than it is now but smaller numbers of people and the territory physical character building was one nine hundred thirty seven it was still coach Alexander who was in charge of everything.

[00:49:52]
Did you go to the football games. Yeah. So you're absolutely right. Yeah very much so. During my time there. What would have been the Flemister. Drop you off and we're somewhere along on my own drive you know just going to the camp and then you hike off to your ranch how everything was right in the center of the campus except they are O.T.C. neighbor Laurel to say with the air going locked away at the bottom of the hill now do you see when you came to Georgia Tech you got a choice.

[00:50:28]
Didn't you. All right first time and I decided to choose Navy over army and done Army for four years. Do you know why you're here is it going. OK but why did you change from I mean you know. Well I want to do things but army boys high school.

[00:50:48]
But I was fascinated with the Navy thinking and when I went through the physical examination for the Georgia Tech. I was a major they also arrived to join the army. But I said I want to join the Naval route to say so I had to have another physical one for that's right.

[00:51:12]
So I just fascinated by going with the Navy and stead of the army. Do you know why you were so interested. I've never I've never he would hardly ever seen the ocean. But you were back I'm not sure I had ever seen the ocean. But you told me you were crazy about swimming.

[00:51:30]
I mean you said you weren't that good. It was going to be with the Navy's that there was a choice I was absolutely. Could concerned to get him to be sure that I got in the Navy good for you and I went to the Navy Yard to see it was very important to Georgia Tech because the guy made George Griffin.

[00:51:52]
You remember George gravity. Well. Yeah he was a great. He was the spirit. Yeah eventually the one nine hundred forty S. when you were there when you when you were there he was still around doing. He was coaching the track tea and you know I thought my God he was doing all the things I so do you want to spill I thought he was going to get named And you know student tonight after the war was nine hundred forty six when he was named But you know but what he was interested in was that maybe he had been a right he was in the Navy and and World War two And I remember.

[00:52:37]
Have to be with a man who had one time during our time in the Navy. And he had been assigned as a as a big master on the beach invasion not in not in prayer. But over the one of the islands and in the Pacific. Yeah you know it's interesting because he served in World War one he left school for a while to go there.

[00:53:04]
I think you bank and he was writing articles for The Atlanta Journal Constitution for all the things he was always so involved with Georgia Tech a lot of everything. I agree and fashion a thing to be with him and I briefly and I was very we were never in the same unit though.

[00:53:22]
But there you have to crawl space where it was not only ROOM about you know who you were no you know you hear of the funny thing about George I don't know why saying that is one of the things I really remember you really want time and he knew your name ever again.

[00:53:39]
And yet he called himself a sack brain because he forgot everything else. All right. Stories about George. So before we go forward with Georgia Tech. We have backtracked a little bit you know you had some unusual jobs that we didn't get to talk about. Now I know you did.

[00:54:03]
So tell me about when you were very much that John entire There was doing. They used to satirise factors I was always on Saturdays when I was it had boys **** a little bit maybe and and probably worked other days in the summertime and they worked on Saturdays only doing this school year as part of correct.

[00:54:32]
What I would. I was not they. I didn't operate the well let's say that they had six horse driven carriages each had a certain certain specific route that they followed every day seven days a week and they were delivering a no you just go and sell it when he would deliver and you didn't have any all those he just really saw you turn a basket and went up to the door but you had his share of customers if you expected or expecting to see you.

[00:55:13]
So you drove the horse got off to the person another person was the driver and I am here and the operator of the unit particular and then one was the sales and I was the I was a well he was the driver and the salesman as well. While I was the helper.

[00:55:34]
OK And the freshman year I worked which was a summer time I guess and perhaps some of the moment I was paid fifty cents for the day fold A's work on Saturday and this person didn't do too well so the following year I went to work different driver who ran that particular route which was up on Stanley and so it falls and.

[00:56:03]
Actually Dahlia. And we had a lot of apartment houses I had and I had worked for him about two weeks he says. I've been paying you a dollar a for the day's work on Saturday your work has increased enough that I think I'm going to pay you. Right.

[00:56:22]
If you're free and they paid me a dollar on a quarter of their own X.. Dollar quarter for the day and then the welkin was loaded with fresh feel free to break the previous twelve eighteen hours I get up in the middle of the night and go run the Bayreuth Yeah that I would and then you guys would show what I'd show up over there.

[00:56:45]
That's a great river just up the street from the place we're talking about. And one year my drive I was working and I was up and I were working up and partially And so I drove in my area. Why he went on vacation and I did go and get away again and drove him back and drove it totally myself it is just so wonderful because nothing like that happens anymore now you know cause I don't have a horse really don't know.

[00:57:12]
Thanks I had six its first it must have smelled wonderful to have all that the big stuff and whole Yeah they let you sample in there way years. You never had anything from highly personal expenses like a cult fifty cents. And I notice that every My mother and more than that.

[00:57:34]
Madam seventy five in a way you know today there are thirty two dollars. It's thirty two dollars apiece today. I feel like that's probably true. Seven rows six seven roles in a package ten cents. Just imagine that's amazing. Yeah. And at the end of the day you didn't get to take what you didn't sell you had to go ahead and tell your back and they put it in a store and it.

[00:58:03]
Solid probably about high price because it has a door that already in that interesting of a very couldn't keep anything. Over the board like they didn't put purser operatives and everything then it was all fresh stuff that was all everyone had and soon we forget that. That's how people used to get fresh things that's really from the milkman came that way and the bakery came that way and I didn't realize that so.

[00:58:28]
One other memory from your childhood that we didn't talk about was the circus from everything I can tell the circus coming to Atlanta was a really big deal here and the city was small enough that people came from or from outside the countryside Yeah they were coming to town to go to the circus and well that's true and you would go every year.

[00:58:50]
You got to go pretty new. Yeah I went to several times. Yeah I keep saying well I made every other day would be you know good culture and and. And it was a real big circus to war you had every three three big tents no one big tremendous cheer.

[00:59:10]
But they had three three rings three rings. I have yes. So they had the began almost an addition to the acrobats always came out of horse training poor training with numbers of cars are just like you say they're part of all the trash siding with the railroad across the area.

[00:59:32]
I you know in reading the early blueprints at Georgia Tech that your books. There are so many references to the circus that I was. It had to be a pretty big deal. I was quite a big question about it everybody really wanted to have you know to be a part of it.

[00:59:48]
The kids used to come when the circus train came in town they go watch on load right. Yeah absolutely and watch them put up to it you can watch them take it down. Yeah those are the matter of fact it is not common. Most of the time. As far as I recall after one night saying.

[01:00:06]
I made come at night but that's saying up during the early morning hours and through the day. The show would go on and by next morning. Please be gone. You know hitting one night. Well you know that's like magic thing. Yeah rather than their parody of the Ringling Brothers Obama directly and go all over another place the next night and the next like so it was a big big thing for them is a hard life to be on the road like that.

[01:00:41]
One of the things that were so that was such a big statement in the city now people don't even think twice about it. Yeah everybody. You had big OK We had lots of already knew about it and waited for the next ten to when it come again. You were about ten years old when Gone With The Wind was premier in Atlanta.

[01:01:05]
Do you have any recollection of all the hullabaloo about Absolutely yes. Those grand Zenit or I would say a big crowds in this so everybody everybody talked about it and you know the light of everything like that because I didn't go during that point later but you were aware of it.

[01:01:27]
Very much. So where they stayed crossed the street from the box there to everybody that. Yeah yeah the Georgian Terrace and they've crossed the street and Clark Gable and the rest of the people were saying it's just one rowdy town quite calm and I wish I want I use in the newspaper accounts there were more people in Atlanta.

[01:01:52]
Then lived in Atlanta. If you know that's probably true. Everybody came to see the excitement and by the time you moved to Georgia. You were going to Georgia Tech. Dr Britton was the president correct came he had been the president for a pretty long time I had him when he was an older gentleman president throughout my time they have well he was there the whole time you were there that took a while to find somebody to replace him because of the war.

[01:02:16]
So there you are one nine hundred thirty seven and. Did you ever encounter Dr Yes you see him around jobs. I got a scholarship good somewhere along in my own back during my sophomore year I had three different jobs one was a fifteen dollars a month where you did something on campus.

[01:02:38]
Another job was. I was walking to the library downtown rather cross the street from the Globe's Grandsir OK right. Yeah yeah well I had something else going on but anyway. When I was interviewed for the scholarship and I don't remember what I got to go to college for right.

[01:03:00]
But I bet read him personally and I remember how he commented on my socks that I was worried I'd have some sort of with a strawberry stock so it's all about the order of. Play in Osogbo maybe color those are going to come because I do remember he made it made a point of looking at my socks and some sort of a comment.

[01:03:21]
I don't remember ever having Yeah that particular connection with your example that one time ago. Well that's great that you have a memory of him and you're using people that Andrew and I don't really remember but there were several interesting people that were on the campus that we already mentioned Coach Alexander and he was coaching the team and how was the football team doing in nineteen thirty seven and thirty eight thirty nine.

[01:03:44]
You remember good we had a really good team. We did He was a good team. And of course and you attended all of the games and off hours I know we were I was of robbing the friends from the court for want you for your brand had I had to wear.

[01:04:03]
You know to where you are because they really were forcing you had to where you could only stop where if you defeated University of Georgia and the freshman and I don't think we I think I had to continue on that for a whole here. Now you know you don't do that anymore.

[01:04:22]
Now if you give it will happen. They don't wear another person that was around the campus that was a guy named Jamie Anthony did you ever meet him he was that first assistant to prep the president Britain and he he was the guy that went and got people out of classrooms for situations or you know he was kind of an all around guy you know.

[01:04:42]
I don't remember I don't remember him when OK another person that was well known on the campus we said was Dean Griffin and you saw him a lot. You said you saw George Jr here I did see him a lot and **** but I did see him a talent for some reason I've never I've never had the problems that actually I don't yet but I do you remember a dean Skiles already calculus.

[01:05:16]
You had him for calculus. That's right. What do you remember best about him. Well he didn't hear very well but he really was a good teacher and perished. We had a year ago and differential calculus and I think he was my teacher for the first place so that was a differential.

[01:05:38]
And I feel that's the only course I have a failing. The second high and I blame that on having so many jobs I had three jobs I miss it all. Yeah it was hard to get out. I did go to summer school mate and they had it's good to know he was working out for us on the summer school.

[01:05:59]
What about D.M. Smith. Do you remember him. DR SMITH He was a chemistry rational mathematics mostly mathematics. DMCE Do you remember him and I remember my choir. I was in his class. And he made it to our chemistry I don't know I don't know I was his clients I do remember.

[01:06:22]
They all I'm not mistaken we had a somebody else who was also prominent person and the chemistry group but I don't get this this mess. D.M. Smith was so this is one to talk to some of **** course that I took the differential calculus. He was very funny.

[01:06:39]
He was amusing man he used to make kids laugh all the time year member that he coached the football players to make sure they could get through. The second year that I failed the second half of the year that I fail integral calculus. We had a really you know young fellow having a first year as a professional and he was a brilliant person so brilliant and he would write stuff on the screen and he'd be all right.

[01:07:08]
She didn't see what we see as you could tell you go right over here and he was just he just left me. You know there was a doctor shortage or tell that used to do that to physics professor board tell Does that ring a bell. He used to write things down and you race them as he went I think they don't remember features another teacher that was there at that time and c Do you remember early Groban Steen he was a chemistry professor at that time towards the last two years you were there he was named Roman Steen Dr Grossman Steen no Nobel I can't recall I had a professor who had a name.

[01:07:51]
Not unlike yours or told physical chemistry or years. Yes there was yes yes and it was not a wonderful program I really enjoyed that he's still with us and and what he. Braises Daigle he's a hybrid he creates hybrid daintily because of the colors from the chemicals. He was arrested later with the chemicals I do not remember the name but I betcha that's what may have been good of him but the physical chemist of the four years course not just a semester anyway and you're right it.

[01:08:23]
You know you are right or feeling bad. I want to marry my junior year. Yeah that's what he was there. That's right. I'm not Dr Rainey did you know. Glen Rainey told English. Yes. Yep he was the one who asked me a question and class one day and I said something that he was and he said you don't even remember your name to me but I do remember hearing here is not an unpleasant person it was funny but I do remember how I jumped on me for something he asked me a name which asked me my name.

[01:09:04]
Maybe and I said something different and he responded. You know to me back to Mr Dr Smith Yes he taught a class at one time that I took not only as a summer school integral calculus but also a four week four time course I was like it was a slide rule.

[01:09:31]
Sure. He told the slide rule that would have been something you had like or I thought I well I'm told he was very witty. But he didn't volunteer younger man. So we had a lot of jokes to tell people that he was he was an excellent teacher I liked him.

[01:09:46]
Yeah we had a fellow that was to try to teach me and for you over teach me anything. But I didn't dislike him he just was far too fast for me I just couldn't good he grew up but you don't remember his name though I do know. Remember you had a lot of really good strong role models for young men at that time those professors were really good whatever good day.

[01:10:11]
Good people. Every one of our great people. Dr Skiles you. I'm told that if you didn't like what you had to say you just turned in Syria a gun. You could see him doing that probably dollars so it was a different time than on the campus and when you came in one nine hundred thirty seven.

[01:10:30]
There were a lot more buildings that there had been ten years before that because they built all those new dormitories the east side of the campus close to the stadium that they refurbished the stadium again and it was kind of fun to go to school then right and a lot of people didn't realize that the war was coming.

[01:10:47]
Although some people didn't know what Meyer the man who became the commander of the Naval or T.C. when I first went to went there. My freshman year a captain and the baby was in for order of the mobile or to say he was the commanding officer of the group appeared rather all and assessed the commander was commander and the Navy doing duty there where the two weeks to two years.

[01:11:26]
He later became going to go shoot a film of a battleship Philadelphia and I was thinking. But anyway that's neither here or there but the man who came in to for the last couple of years that I was unable or seen spoke about the oncoming wall with Japan.

[01:11:50]
He made a talk to the Rotary Club mission that specifically and I think he was sent by the Navy for that really although he became. Wearing also a crown of a cruiser. There were people that knew because Dr Britton went to Washington D.C. in one nine hundred thirty seven.

[01:12:11]
Yeah to start being briefed on how George what role Georgia Tech was going to play and all the comment was a suggestion I am. Make a big deal of it. Yeah I just got here. He was no I have a good victor of Japanese war. I'll be good and he was well a Rotary Club made him some to do about it.

[01:12:35]
Did your paths ever cross with Ray Davis and your chemical engineering he was also a chemical engineering class and he got out of Georgia Tech just about the time you came in but did your path because you know he went on to become a four star general in the Marine Corps that right.

[01:12:53]
Yet Raymond Davis Raymond No I don't have to make about I thought you were there at the same time but just briefly actually. Used to talk about Dr Smith and how he coached you know and Ray was like you he had to work all the time and he worked at the Colonial bakery.

[01:13:11]
Yeah that's right. No more memory than he worked at Chloe baker and the night shift so that he could go to school during the day and the X.L. night you know yeah he said he never really had a home from that time. My first time that I remember when I was three or four years out or he came back to Atlanta from big impacts from Clarksville I was living on our Avenue which is that the cross the railroad from the little white baby.

[01:13:43]
So you got to smell that bakery all the tell you what are you really very good. Yeah yeah I think I'm yeah I remember the general telling me that you know and smell it. He got so we wouldn't eat anything from because it was too much just the thought that crossed my mind.

[01:13:58]
So I don't know him when you went to tech you would register in the old in the gym. Right. Is that where you went to register for your classes and believe that through physical examination for the school itself and clothing they are all to play military or to say.

[01:14:17]
And also on a section of that same building the Navy had it separately. Now the favor he had an armory that I'm rebuilding was a cross by thirty third Street in correctly the armory was there that wasn't. I think I don't think that's what I was just talking about I all my classes and our P.C. which of about four days a week.

[01:14:48]
Yeah yeah. Madge and I both the building. It was there when I went to tech. Yeah you know what my view was they might have been led because we had a fairly large area where we had things like that in that building and I remember like this very important around.

[01:15:07]
Yeah I don't know pictures of it all. You don't nobody ever took any pictures of things like that and shame that you know so many memories from it but no no documentation. That was there that was the building I mentioned earlier Big away from the central campus and not uncommonly when you finish the class that they are unable or to use the building five minutes later you do have the dot of the hero you know you know yeah yeah they call it heartbreak hill get nothing but you know that I was right now the gymnasium was brand new when at the time you came it was it was just I think that when I graduated I was next door again and it was just opening up in one nine hundred thirty seven it was already under construction.

[01:15:52]
I think it opened in one nine hundred thirty eight. Because they hired Freddie Le new to come in and teach drown proofing courses that I thought we graduated in that you have like we did. I think you probably do know unless it was the facts here. It could have been one or the other two places because we did I have thank you.

[01:16:09]
Was a down the next door. I remember either in the basketball or had my picture taken with Harry Flemish and here is I thank you. They were already married at that time. I'm not sure whether they had married I guess they had not yet but they did claim they made a picture was with I've still got that picture.

[01:16:29]
Harriet has to be wife with me and you and graduation day graduation badge exactly right and it was probably very well could have been in a gymnasium other than you know that space because they had a basketball area that you have to write you know chords on this.

[01:16:46]
I write that check the results. Yes. They started the class just as it got bigger moved over to the facts because they wouldn't fit into their law graded on boys high school at the Vox at the time really was high on their graduation. So you didn't have an experience and I was a graduate from do you remember tennis courts being anywhere.

[01:17:09]
When you were there. You didn't play tennis. But do you remember tennis courts and tell me where you went the fencing have been where were your practice for fencing my recollection of if there was a mayor and the area neighbor or only you were in the area where you could be a form of terms and I was a very large area where we could.

[01:17:37]
So there was enough room for you to have your fencing coach there when you have the defense teams to Room of the pitching coach from Carrick I remember one whom I shall remember back a call you and maybe everything he was also in print feature. Great. He taught French at Boys' High School.

[01:18:01]
You know I can't call these things. But I think I know we're talking about and that boy's Hi yeah yeah I know you're talking French again I think at Georgia Tech. Yeah I was at that time I was going to be you came in like that or engineer so I continued my friend first I just thought it was I ask you.

[01:18:21]
And then I changed to chemical engineering and I was required to take German men and I had to take German in addition to my four senior program. I had so you had an extra layer there insurance hard you know it was there was a lot and I commanding also our T. C. Naval or T.C. at that time because I had real good grades during the thirty three years for three years of my time and they went on to say they are but he called me and said Your grades have dropped precipitously this year.

[01:19:07]
What's happened and I didn't know anything except the fact that I batted rather hard curse Germany driven to the regular seam You gave you know which was also very already pretty pretty heavy anyway so I was just over over and over programmed overstressed and I had to take it to graduate have the capability of a yeah yeah.

[01:19:31]
Did you ever go. Did you start dating when you were not in Georgia Tech. Yes yes probably in Boys High School was saying later. Yeah I asked you boys now you told me you didn't date there so you did finally end up dating Well yes I did and A I don't remember it.

[01:19:47]
Yeah yeah of Amish that I I missed it. Yes I did as a matter of fact my wife who lives up stairs was also I was just days now. OK And the same building. Was bought sparse boys high school really. And she wanted my dad to go away from girls I ask you to come over to the to the senior program.

[01:20:12]
As we were not graduating. But our T.C. program where we all paraded out of course that right. That day you can remember that a three year old who only so you dated her through high through Georgia Tech to the other part of high school and then through Georgia Tech you were literally high school sweethearts then that's correct.

[01:20:33]
Even though you were in different schools and Iraqi man goes yeah yeah. When did you get married then before you went off to morrow I'd been in the Navy a four year right. I came back on my way to let let's go back to your senior year of high of Georgia Tech then.

[01:20:52]
And your senior year you petition for graduation you're going to have all of your credit hours and you're going to also you're going to get commissioned because you went four years. I'm going to say so you had a provision and we still Pearl Harbor still had not occurred.

[01:21:08]
That's correct. Yes nine hundred forty one. But it's made probably maybe June of ninety four zero zero. Feel like we've got a personal psychomotor what you have been commissioned the same time you graduated or a few days apparently exactly the same. OK. So you get your commission you get your graduation.

[01:21:27]
Now this is an interesting time. You didn't necessarily think you're going to go right off to war you thought maybe you get a job. How did you get the job that you went My interviews took place during the latter part of the whole. Day you were forever through graduation day and I were interviewed a couple of places like you got two jobs actually it and chose the.

[01:21:55]
One with two part but the interviews were right on the campus and they're all here that on the campus Yeah it was the career. Often. That they say you came and said which companies you want to sign up for did one of the I help you make a nice resume.

[01:22:10]
I don't remember because a lot of I think I think at that time you could learn how to make a proper resume I don't remember your little resume don't you know I got some from that I was just interviewed. Yeah apparently that's all I remember. And so you had to offer and you said to the one from Dupont That's correct and Dupont knew that you had been commissioned in the Navy lawyers and but they were going to hire you to do what was considered a security job in the sense that that's right.

[01:22:42]
You could be exempted. So your first assignment was to do what when you hired I would do plant. I was a. Noted newcomer working in the laboratory at a place where they were making material big for big guns. So it was definitely war related and World War related and up it wasn't Tennessee correct Methodist minister to say that you didn't move up there now when you moved to Memphis Tennessee did you go by train.

[01:23:17]
You know or do you have a dollar car you have a car you have a car I was reading car. Rose a family car where my family was going to cause you know really why from. What kind of car was it was a four hour from our father border west of Atlanta or somewhere to pay B. of brand new six hundred fifty dollars for it was brand new.

[01:23:43]
You ran one model for one of the bad nineteen What year was in one nine hundred forty this summer nineteen forty. So as I know I learned to drive on that car and that was the first time you learned how to drive when the car came that right.

[01:23:56]
Correct. You have it on a car before. So here you are you're SO YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO years old are you going to learn how to drive a car so. That's right. And then you took away from your family a drug to manifest I thrived. And I gave it to me and when you got to Memphis did you move into a boarding house.

[01:24:13]
Booked into the or Y.M.C.A. you went to stay and two or three weeks and then did move to a boarding house that was generally there when you were on I can tell you I know many but I didn't know anybody you know I didn't know anybody had told nobody that I had been acquainted with and you were hired for your chemical engineering prowess which is go right back home I was there to be and everybody all of the new people who stayed with the company and what I already know or whatever they were doing as a chemistry but yet you don't train were started working in the law and they had laboratory analyzing material.

[01:24:57]
So you could cope with a qualification for a choir but we were just in the laboratory working shift hours rotating Yeah it was twelve. When I was doing it. Yeah we rotated around and as it turned out that was only for a bell. Thanks to want G.M. to Muslim together but halfway through you got your notice from the Navy saying well we want you and I got it right.

[01:25:25]
I got it when I got there. Yeah I had to come to my home. Yeah and that's when they told me that they would examine what we believe they want to stay there and they would write for that which they did and then the second notice came close to another might have to me they are and the same tamely I could have stayed according to them they could call and call me or required person yeah I want to call you could've gotten a war effort exemption.

[01:25:58]
So instead what you did is you said I'll take my. I don't want my to the Navy and that doctor gives us why you are here out because you stepped up to the plate he said I'm going to do my part and I caused by this time it's still we still haven't had Pearl Harbor.

[01:26:17]
That was pretty much all ours and everybody's talking about is the coming war at least everyone knows that Hitler's been going crazy and I thought Europe and the whole world was very very prominent in Europe of course it was not in your mind you knew this was going to happen.

[01:26:32]
And so you stepped up to and I think it was a surprise to most people except there's one person on the surprise Pearl Harbor about. OK so what's the first thing you need it with you. Where did you get sworn in and out of ordinary and required it forced on Charleston and stayed there about ten twelve days doing really nothing except from overtraining spent a full week at the Marine Corps station just down this road from Charleston firing a rifle working on the rifle he made out about three o'clock every morning I don't spend all day on the all the rifle range and for a week and then came back to charge them and the day I got back I reported he had to charge them from being down to Doreen core training ground wire all those came for me to go to the U.S.S. Barry and I reported as directed to Norfolk for transportation and reads to the port where Barry may be when I was there when I was going to the North Atlantic where I got on the share then they don't.

[01:28:00]
We're going to have to depend on. Very was operating out of kind of all. And we had some good cruisers no war and had a good crew and I was the nearest crew member at the time and and we were in the way did say a lot into the Pacific some back into the Atlantic through the can mail two or three times and just having a meeting very very good time with it all and no big deal and then suddenly we were in port.

[01:28:44]
Pacific and it was good i hope horses and dive at the dock with all the time to be all five of the ships destroyers in the group and our particular segment and the word came about Pearl Harbor was here Sunday afternoon. Yeah and and so because of all this we began to get the crew and they all sort of back into the ships because of afternoon on a Sunday.

[01:29:14]
They all I'll leave except for a certain group that everybody knew they had to get back hands on dad I guess a lot of old but doing things I didn't hear about it right away. But I would have got everybody we could and sailed about just about dark that night.

[01:29:32]
I've been in the Pacific to build a barrier so to speak for protection of the Panama Canal works of vital so that was your first assignment and was to be there for telling all that work I've been on the barrier for once. So I was the first wartime experience and we were lead by a group of submarine is the group the entire group of five destroyers were sea.

[01:30:03]
Rizzi who were relieved. And came back to the Atlantic side through the canal and then then we began convoying and that's where we encountered German sub arrays at great numbers and where we kind of going at what you will of convoying from deny all ships came in from the Pacific.

[01:30:27]
But since you have put all of it a lot of them naval vessels would probably have to have a convoy but but first we didn't convoy. We just came separately with ship's escort we were going to losing ships rather briskly we had one forty eight hour period with almost nine ships in view of the Panama Canal.

[01:30:50]
All determined summaries and about that same time they started the convoy system and we convoyed from the canal up to Sequoia were taken over by a group of ships naval vessels taking care of the East Coast and so on. Like say we all are and write them back.

[01:31:10]
Yeah a lot of ships came back from the East Coast Guard ships through the canal way about on the back. So going back. I don't think we always think about that as from port that was for the war but commerce was extremely important for the huge premium power of every last come hell yeah we've been a problem or.

[01:31:29]
Yet a bit different. What it was only or never our steady had to figure out what this whole convoy system was going to be rather than the escort system. Well I was a convoy as had been operating and you know is it right it probably a year. Even before the war started because we were assisting Britain and protecting their ships on the Atlantic right.

[01:31:52]
North Atlantic route in reality and lost one destroyer before the war began the Reuben James was of a store which was top heated and he had let it know was that way. Did you know before the war not us that we were protecting ships too probably. High where of course they were picked up by Britain from their own.

[01:32:17]
You searched on that destroyer for one year exactly the same Does the date of the date where you. How did you get out what was the well lived. I chose to go over submarines. So you and I actually need to go. I want a and I asked to go submarine of totally volunteer.

[01:32:35]
And I had to ever been in the submarine and that. One time I made our O.T.C. cruise. I get lucky to make get my grades were such that I could go to the west coast. So I made a cruise on the old the U.S.S. Wyoming battleship with all the West Coast all O.T.C. they will tell you C.V. and out there.

[01:32:59]
We had very good for which we went to Pearl Harbor. Actually we went to Honolulu We never the ship. Never worked. We went to Pearl Harbor. And we've all heard the opportunity of flying around or writing a rod on a submarine doing it rather a lot hardly ever going on the airplane.

[01:33:22]
I sure was a submarine given a gig. No one submarine did right or so I made a trip on their own shrubbery and so you had had the experience and you managed to do a lot. I guess I thought enough of it but very dangerous. I did and so I decided I wanted to be in submarine just as the interesting saying was that the but I think there were thirty eight graduates and they've all O.T.C. at the valley my graduated I was about third of the class of I'd done well the first three live there was a little break in.

[01:34:03]
Less fast paced and I watched but the first ten people were called non-voluntary somebody to volunteer program but the first top ten people in my class and then they will all T. say was all of the submarines can up but not me I was number but number three in the class and the raise because this was that tape and I'm unable or at least not been able or chemical engineering class apparently had always for many years anyway had made a trip to various chemical plants in Alabama Mississippi and Louisiana and then back to the University of Alabama for today meeting with some chemical engineering group so I was gone.

[01:35:04]
The week that the people came from from Charleston the doctors came from Charleston to get you to do a physical examination so we could get out commision hours gone that way and I had to go to I had to make a trip to Charleston. I asked myself to get my physical examination that you were later than the others and I've presume that that's the reason I didn't get called because the examination was done three or four weeks maybe longer than that it was a tame came over to take from charge of the doctors to do the claims are thirty hours.

[01:35:44]
So are you dollars gone. Yeah you were going it's all in timing but you ended up volunteer ing to do it anyways so you know you're here a year later. So it's you had gone in forty one. So now at the end of forty two. You're going to go into the submarine service.

[01:36:00]
And so what was your first assignment where did. You go first for a submarine **** I would think I'd have to give you something about Florida Hey March where was it your London Connecticut. OK So up to Connecticut and your London Connecticut submarine base the bay majors are brain based narrative in the world and at the time we finished up just after Christmas and school and I was and I got outside much.

[01:36:31]
I had no choice. Got all those and I was all into that all three which was operating out of New London at that time and that was the name of the submarine was the I was really you know those days before they became the number. No name they all they gave them numbers they asked Barracuda Bonita or a group of submarine three submarines and I think it was I know they were the first maimed submarines so yours was zero three and you had three and a half months of what I imagine was very intense training probably well you just six months somebody who had been six months you know they were crammed in this very well yeah yeah yeah because they needed people desperately when it was a really he said I was a kid and people who were called AM or that voluntary submarines only five albums survived the war.

[01:37:32]
Well here you are OK so you go into the zero three after three half months so by this time we're into nineteen forty two early fact forty two order to end the wars that is just really going on. Big time that right. So I was at forty three.

[01:37:48]
I say I went this summer school in the fall and September always was up to our September of forty to have something a year. Only until I got a three help so I joined my first submarine a slot. And January of forty three just in the forty three L. Madras when he really did think what were they doing.

[01:38:09]
We here particularly Was it a training mission may may we operated out there out of New London but we were not particularly involved in warfare like that time but there were you going up and down the coast where we went up and we operated out of Maine a part of the time.

[01:38:27]
I've heard so many stories about the fact that there were so many German subs that were really off the coast of the United States that a lot of folks were not aware of it. They were publicized Yes we love motor to you to ships up and down the East Coast.

[01:38:42]
So in today when people talk about the war they don't even talk about that as being able to get. So many commercial vessels were lost. A great number. Yeah a lot of lives were lost. Yeah you know I remember that soon after the war began. We were losing so many fear.

[01:39:00]
All of the up and down the East Coast that they made everybody on the East Coast turn out sound like an automobile lights had to be dimmed light just the small thing just so you could see this life. Not that you could see it if they knew of the approaching.

[01:39:19]
So that was forty three hundred forty four brave years. From German submarines. Cautious time with all of the good greased skills and knowledge they got and made the intelligence program which enabled of a great deal of knowledge to get four warnings and then we got. Weird no no radio or no silent of mechanism and all of the straw you.

[01:39:57]
Soon before I left to destroy We got a sound system so we could. Back on the water celebrate were never end of trading for he could use it anyway. But I was saying it's began to come out blossom when new techniques of. Things were so by an end of forty two forty eight forty two a lot of shipping began to do.

[01:40:25]
I don't know if they were making headway with that and yes I'm a submarine laws German submarine love of increasing Germany lost seventy percent of their submarines. In the war they had just during the course of the war that we were again they had about a thousand submarines operating and the last several days thankfully they devoted their entire Navy at that time practically to submarines after the loss of the Bismarck the battleship.

[01:40:58]
And they lost seven seven hundred submarines that was a thousand a day of course one thousand people flattens out worried about operating all of the same instant I understand that some how many did we have how many did United States had don't think we have one had ever had over about two hundred fifty.

[01:41:18]
So we were pretty minimal group compared with the bigger submarines Electric Boat Company was just down the road a piece in New London where they built submarines. And they were turning out submarine. I've just about every months really and I never heard of them before you know I heard about the victory ships that were being produced.

[01:41:44]
I would then France where they were built quite quickly and that's why they were turning them out there and right up the coast was that they were they were turning out submarine on mine. So I doubt I'm just down the river. I want to say my view of the river and it's not marine base was up the spray or about four miles from the.

[01:42:03]
Ocean and Electric Boat Company was just about hey whale between. The toss of the ocean and they had I think it was twenty two slides ways in which they built a submarine and they would launch one about every thirty days that interesting and course they were rated to operate they still had nearly a month to work but it took me hours to tell me that that they had put another one in how old was the one you were assigned to how old was the old three of the other three was pretty old it was it was a submarine that was built during World War and I wondered if that was true I said Jim and then I asked modes and large number of graphs boats all built in the twenty years or twenty years.

[01:42:55]
I did and did the zero three have radar and so no no no I didn't have any of those he had to have a radio I told over you know what radar was I mean never got to go into all those right now all the national level we were well you know the old three for how long.

[01:43:15]
What about dread you were for his ready to Summer of forty four. So more than a year or more than a leader and I and then you have to learn to get along with everybody really well when you're all trapped and they're like yeah that's right. You have to go home.

[01:43:32]
It's not for everybody that's why people said I don't even have submarine Vienna hey it's a person but I went to the actual level and I was commanding officer also that I commanded had been on a submarine fifteen years and he was a lieutenant commander and I was just a lieutenant and stay there.

[01:43:52]
Lieutenant until I was in Japan but you stand a lieutenant and served as the commander of that. All right. Record which is we believe made you the youngest. So my real manager obviously told us it without the title. I was told where yes I have stressed a position but so huge responsibility having only been sub arranged for a year and I haven and my predecessor had been in they in the Navy and most of it in submarines for fifteen years which was a pattern.

[01:44:24]
I figured if they could use somebody like me to take over a operating submarine and let go. Some of the people from the Naval Academy and places like that. I better jobs so out of that's my thinking. I never nobody told me that I just presume that having been ordered to command a submarine.

[01:44:49]
There's such a short time in submarines. They were just using me to relieve. Good people would tell me no no I on the other hand it could be that you were such good people are ready they could trust you. Well I was a God I was directed to be qualified could command and that's why I was all in all for all three vs eleven.

[01:45:15]
Now you had a crew there that was already trained aware of any ramming aboard you know how were you then that was one nine hundred forty four someone forty four years. So you had just turned fifty twenty five twenty twenty three nineteen from four forty four thousand nine hundred twenty four you just turned twenty three twenty five and I'll twenty five.

[01:45:43]
Yeah you can't. Twenty five. Boy that's a lot of responsibility how big of the crew how many people were in that group about forty forty people and did you all. Was it over challenging for you or did you feel up to the task but I had to go but I do know arrive.

[01:45:59]
Why do you feel as though I don't think I was like very well. I was a novel and they were like it every person. That was I was raised as a parent felt to be somewhere you know and I was younger than the person I really. So I was not in a hurry doesn't make mistakes though they knew I was doing.

[01:46:20]
Well my counter to my belief that I was not surly like was that we compromised everywhere saying no saying we are already very I would say that was pretty doggone successful and that means diving repeatedly day after day after day and like that. So it was really you were up to the command you managed to I took command of the submarine and treated and we continued to operate and in and out of Trinidad to three March and then I would have to go on ten of all and operated out of Guantanamo about four or five months and then the pad of all where we operated on both sides and Larry King and Pacific out of Panama and and we got radar.

[01:47:14]
While I was in part of all. Really. Outfitted this head radio all that. We got laid off. For the first time where the power operated out of Panama where radar where if not in a sub one would mean you've got radar radars on the radio I know I know but you've got it on the submarine correct Yeah that's probably the best you've got on there.

[01:47:38]
I don't know submarine. Well that everybody would have to be trained on how to use it. We had to figure out a qualified operator who is revenue to the same window as to help. So he came was a joy in the crew because we got to write all the sub right.

[01:48:00]
So when we left part of on all the back. A New London. And story took off from New London and made it to Key West where we refuel all of us. If you're ours. Right. And then where we were radar wasn't working. We really are very early to work and then when we went there for just about thirty hours trying to force out of that was in Key West then to go all around the Florida coast and up the East Coast.

[01:48:42]
Did you love the new. Weather was all right. Until we got up to around Jackson very open the weather became real bad and became visible to nothing. And I said to remember thinking and talking to the people where we never have to rate all the horror we don't have it now that will work.

[01:49:07]
We were on to the fellow who was in charge of the operating the right ot US A man came and said I was I got another thought. Let me can I use a lot of hi fi this new thing on the radio and see if it worked and I said what about always and he did it.

[01:49:25]
It worked and if he got all up the coast was it was absolutely zero. And we suddenly saw the radar as we approach from Norfolk. I've tremendous convoy coming out of nowhere and had the radar we were going right into the middle. I would have been no question of what that saved our lives and me and I always thought of that being one of the blasted and use the great you are given it's a great title because we would have never made it through that.

[01:50:03]
Thirty five twenty five or thirty four ship cargo or something all out in the sea right as if it also holds Yeah. And we had to move the ship back. So that's a nice to get out of the way completely away from any get out of a couple of days before we were able to really find out who we were we lost no visibility you know where your position using the saws and that's all we had to be so scary you know it's probably was try and yeah try I was trying I remember they die out of there somewhere running from away from the convoy and not knowing exactly where it was headed away or we were going either and not seeing yes I couldn't dive you tape that was our brain for you to see you know of course you know you might run into something here right here.

[01:50:59]
But if you had to come back up with a group that's what they call green relief being a pilot might see that your pants truck I'll fight you every day to get away from the convoy. But we couldn't locate I was because we had no other me was really shocked by it and I don't know the stars and I was that amazing.

[01:51:18]
And certainly a couple of days later as I cleared it up and we got to organize it all way back to two got all way back and worked at a lot of it so was that part of the story. Definitely had a happy ending. I thought so. Dr gives here you are your reality as eleven.

[01:51:42]
You're the commander you guys are just narrowly escaped with your lives by avoiding I'm sure actually that he got what sounds like a pretty good guess though. And so then what happened what was lucky we got the right off. Yes yes yes I went on to round in and worked out of New London for a couple of months and then I brought some new blood and I went back.

[01:52:03]
To Philadelphia maybe or maybe already and we're already back to New London Submarine **** the perfective commanding officer skill perspective commanding also our medical and I was going to see wait a minute that's kind of a late is very well but it is this was a school in which you were framed specifically an attack.

[01:52:33]
OK but with periscope and surface attack you wish I had no training at all. I had not had any idea training other just playing submarine school no. OK So you're right back to school back to school to for just a moment and then was altered to the Pacific fleet and went to Pearl Harbor and all one ended I always wanted to go all my awaiting assignment to a submarine at that time and there I was you were not well yes eleven when you went there that.

[01:53:08]
No no I don't I'll have to have some one. OK and went back to New London for this new right I'm out of school and then they say I wanted to see if they did they fly you were over there or did you know you want to harvest our train and ship.

[01:53:25]
OK I don't know. So you would raise your aircraft carrier San Diego to her home but it's quite an experience and a very I hear airplanes are really British aircraft carrier and Anyway I stayed in a new lot and I mean in. Poor poor hall where the submarine base Pearl Harbor and then was transported to was a very modern recently bailed two or three years before recently built.

[01:54:00]
Submarine tender a very large. And was awaiting transfer to a submarine operated submarine and oriented really just in the nick of time for that. No I never did you have to think I was Saturn when I went out on submarines. During that time I will write my deepest dive while HOURS and HOURS I'M OUT OF MY but I was not in command of the submarine I was just on the submarine was a group and purposes of observation on my work because it just it is just some supplemental repair work in was that I went out on the submarine and it went down to two hundred fifty feet.

[01:54:49]
That's the vapors dive or maybe because the test depths of submarines and World War two the deepest was only three hundred feet that we. They all went below that and wanted to submarine as we know at least as six hundred feet and survived. Probably someone did survive but anyway.

[01:55:15]
That was eight and then the war ended. So you were on Guam when you got the news that the Japanese had surrendered correct life and then you had plenty of points. So you were one of the early guys OK I mean I had points should've been able to get home but nobody would be in the shards then yeah.

[01:55:34]
So I went to what I want to. So did they ship you from Guam. Did you board a ship being one that day I don't know I want to. Well I would I do. You're right I boarded a ship for Japan. I went to Japan but we left so quick that they decided while we were already on the Overhaulin trip to Japan we were getting there to her day after the bomb.

[01:56:03]
Arms had been dropped. So we were diverted to Okinawa and went to Okinawa and stayed in Okinawa a couple of weeks. Wait just simply waited doing nothing. And that. The Bay But no by. All can always have little if filled with measured. Naval vessels just wait harbors and I will be **** Yeah.

[01:56:27]
And one of my classmates was on the book battleship day and I was able to visit here with such an interest he was on the Wisconsin. Yeah and I went over and really you know Anyway he was not in submarines he was but in my youth my classmate and a good friend and who.

[01:56:45]
All of our previous schooling we were all around. That's wonderful. Now how did you get all to play go to Japan. I ended up in Japan for several months yes. You didn't know what you're doing there. Thank you Ira. I was rather group to to dismantle or destroy your government not German but Japanese submarines that survived the war.

[01:57:15]
So we went to a shipyard that big ship out on the west and western coast of Japan and there are not a submarines there at that time but we stayed there a pretty good while because we were supposed to survey medical equipment periscopes and and all kinds of things we used in submarines and and we knew her example that the Japanese submarines were more for fish and never comes armories.

[01:57:52]
They were just better that our personal quirks were used to poke above the hole. And stayed. Two or three months they have. And exactly where a couple of very much hope of much. And then they're already to Kobe Japan which was about a two or three day trip by ship for four day trip I believe.

[01:58:16]
And a lot of the Japanese fleet had sunk in the Bay of Colby. But although I actual operating submarines had been amassed and we took part in destroying a fair number of those sub submarine. How did it just I am I LOVE MY up or taking my own for example one of the first things we did was to in a warehouse a very massive warehouse they had a number of probably twenty twenty five to manned submarines which you heard about I'm sure those little bitty one and they were not in the water they were in the they were still there and and we destroyed them by we had a crew of people with us who had explosives and we go up literally where I was it was like fire the White House.

[01:59:19]
And then we got that call dismantling the enemy. That's right. And then after having gotten that done. The sub arranged which I rank I did all in all around the hall but I don't have an ad I have a very good many still had groups all of the war really and we were invited to have Saddam and we would see people come and bring supplies food whatever to the submarines and.

[01:59:50]
We were doing nothing with them. But all of back to the highest place or to pay as I made of other day trip back to the. Support and to pay and stayed a while longer and from there I was the shortest to come home and did you come home by ship came home on a submarine submarine rescue vessel one hundred eighty foot submarine rescue vessel and they came and took a reaction from Japan we came down to go all over again and then I guess back to San Francisco back to San Francisco for your two day trip.

[02:00:32]
Why how in that rather small yet that's a small boat on her majesty. North Pacific causeway following the the best route available and came north of how why and whether was pretty bad and had a lot of. The grit of a memorable trip for the wrong reason. So I didn't ever vote for the way we were carrying her exam for one of the big domes that they would put Valley in the water to rescue submariners administrated try to get some of the crew all for example the ship that went down.

[02:01:14]
And about nineteen thirty eight or thirty nine of New Hampshire. That's where they rescued by this tremendous. Eight foot wide and about twelve feet tall dome which were let down by this every submarine rescue Absolutely. But three in North Korea for the world cared one of those girls.

[02:01:37]
And he was so buried there. Increased the it made it difficult to keep the ship balustrades right here where you didn't know probably keep a good balance but I think it made the ride a little rough for rough weather made it work work for of. Me when I was a very strange forever and we all once you get back to San Francisco then are you discharged or do you have to come.

[02:02:03]
Back to know I had to come back and go back to Jack some day I figured you had to go somewhere. Yeah and I was I was destroyed in Jacksonville come from San Francisco to Jacksonville my walking back to Atlanta I know by train. How do you get from San Francisco I try to train also cross country on the train and then here I have about two days.

[02:02:23]
I had that much travel time then to Jacksonville for a couple of days for my discharge operation. Now you were discharged from the Navy but did you stay in the reserves. Yes. How many years did you stay in the reserves about six or seven months a I became a commanding officer of the and they were reserve unit in Atlanta for four years always through medical school.

[02:02:48]
So you didn't tell me that we have to write that down. I guess I did yeah and I had four years ahead. They recreated and they will reserve in a different fashion of what it was before you knew it had to be reinvented we had six units made up of all time.

[02:03:05]
Only twelve hundred thirty and not quite what Twelve hundred people altogether two hundred people in each of the six units and I was commanding also one of those units. Why do you think I made lieutenant commander while I was in Japan. So I became a commanding officer of the reserve unit and made it EDITION.

[02:03:33]
Mostly work with a I think it was much of the work whether they were paying me about two hundred thirty or forty dollars or more. It was required of course like everybody else to take a somewhat Cruise made about three somewhere cruisers through the whole over that period of time and one of those was on the submarine.

[02:03:59]
So when you left the reserves you were a lieutenant commander. When I left the reason I left your pay. I mean you know the reserves after your time here and I know you guys yeah I was there with him. Commander. So you know about that time when you came back to Atlanta.

[02:04:14]
Did you know you were going to go to medical school. Would you get the idea you were going to medical fall that idea. I think all the way back to some degree. We had to like what I guess I like their march on the trip back to Lyon also which I was a lot also sort of compared to a medical officer.

[02:04:36]
We stood watches on the ship coming back just like we were part of the crew and had to do our part and working. But through medical doctors all over groping and we've had wanted and that got me interested in and I'm sure that had to do with it in sewing circles where your choice was to go back to Dupont they would have hired you back.

[02:05:02]
I had written a letter to Dubois telling her that I would rather do it whether we're ready to come back and pointed out that the law will require that they take me back if if if if the work was there. It's the kind of job that I had been doing because I want to bring that to march.

[02:05:20]
So I really didn't have much. The goal and I got the impression I think that I probably would not get do part go back to do so. Instead what their vision of where I got interested in going to medical school. What I had to do. Yeah Bill and so you signed up for Emory So I went to every That was convenient you right here.

[02:05:45]
You know what I made application to University of Georgia Medical School Emory and University of Tennessee and Tennessee Medical School was in Memphis and all the worries. But there is a reason to this. I think about that was because they went all the year round summer time including those again as you finished in three years and I and much of my class was all wartime people we were getting sort of old to start medical school so I figured that I would actually accepted all three of them and I chose Emory cause I've lived here my mother and father had moved to very close to Emory and so the first two years of medical school at Emory were I would go over to their house for lunch every day as well.

[02:06:45]
Close to the first two years of L.B. Aber campus. The second two years of medical school was almost totally integrated. That's what you call getting right into it. There were like they had moved to see everything there had been their group go through a bit from Morningside to Claremont having it not Claremont Clifton Clifton Road and Bev a very close to a very close your parents your parents now help medical school.

[02:07:20]
How big of a challenge was that you were old enough to know what you were doing and you sell right into it didn't you. Well I yes I think that's true. I really enjoyed a lot of work yet the first full year for example was the moment of course I guess you might say it was a matter of getting back and it related took a lot of time and do this section and we all did a full year of this section and study and and but you do this pretty intense.

[02:07:54]
It was intense. But you were comfortable and that's always and I'm going to move near they have the class. World War two veterans had come back we had one fellow who was a lieutenant colonel he was several years older than I was I had a lady who was a veteran of sometimes he was also my she may have been also nurse but I don't think so anyway.

[02:08:25]
She was about the same age as a lieutenant colonel. And. Most of the people who came back were getting pretty close to thirty years old and above all not just the rest of the classes just to the kids going to do on twenty. I mean and yeah. Most people did give you have a college were just so it got higher and higher.

[02:08:49]
Yeah. But you were ready to go. I mean you weren't meant wasting time being a goof off I mean as with zero you know we had no no time to spend lots of time just like you said yeah a lot of nights of study. Yeah I was studying Georgia Tech you prepared you fairly well for it.

[02:09:05]
You were going to go. Yeah. So you had you completed all of the academic part of it and then you went for residency. And you took your residency in internal medicine correct where the internship was the first year. It's about the same. Well you have to go to branches.

[02:09:29]
For a good deal of the same saying what are you going to be a medical doctor or surgeon not quite a little different from here. But basically the internship is about to say yes and about when you go from there to the assistant raised in CA and residency then it's all just what your project going to do but where did you go.

[02:09:51]
I wanted to be a hospital. Which was in a sham really at that time. For Gordon Not that what they call the old forecourt next correct. Yeah exactly right. Not a real doubts I. For a year and then came back to Grady as a sister arrested and went to Georgia bad dish as raised in Madison.

[02:10:13]
So you stayed right in the area you genetical far away I don't know I did go in and you know that's just Although I did I did mood I bought a house with my father's help when I came back from the Navy the no place to VO. That was the one I thought you know I'm not sure.

[02:10:31]
And so you move back and forth back and forth for the two of my wife's family home and my mother and father's family home. My son was born and forty four year. Here and a hair for a while after maybe who I got out of the Navy you he was already in so I had my way we bought a house and I'm now inside we need to stop right now and say When did you get married.

[02:10:59]
And. On the way to medical or way to submarine school. OK When I left the destroyed water and nine hundred forty two. So in nineteen forty two you married your childhood sweetheart correct. Her name is Jean and she saw it was born in New London about two or three months before I left to go to Pan of all for the so you saw him before you left and then didn't see me again for a long time I was born in New London.

[02:11:30]
While I was still up there and then when I was French for to the coast. I had to come back to Philadelphia maybe hard for a while and then and I came left her short while and then we got back to Eilat and they stayed put. As that they're not what I want to patent law Yeah yeah I don't want it as an eleven at that time but anyway.

[02:11:54]
See and that. That's part of my theory about why your heroes because you you had you put your country first and your. Really had to manage that make sure your so you know but you had a house then you bought a house when you got out. You said your dad helped you bought a house.

[02:12:11]
What neighborhood where what area and Morningside morning sun warmed one block from where overthrown all. About a third of a bar from Howard ridge and there was you there. That was good because you're your wife and it was comfortable and close to family. I thought was a bit out of the hood as soon as you were gone.

[02:12:40]
Most of the time in medical school too. I mean you were in Iraq and everybody said and we were gone. Most of the time but at nineteen fifty it paid off. And you had your empty dollar by dollar. I wanted to feel my brothers born in. Forty seven in the morning.

[02:12:58]
O'Barr physiologist fairly common examination. I've started up all I resist going off and the year I work or school or work. I just had time to buy a box of cigars. I had for I would rather go to **** of olives I haven't physiology and as I was in one thousand nine hundred seventy and so but by nineteen fifty you were ready to settle down and started to actually do.

[02:13:26]
Three years of training and I did fifty. Yes you did that you needed to settle down then that from fifty to fifty three and then you started your practice you were ready to make some money by that time. Right. Yes I made six or eight hundred dollars the first.

[02:13:41]
Hey yeah I was in practice. Did she really eighty eight eight hundred was that wasn't very much money. Well the city that now let's explain you started a practice. You got rented a facility right. You didn't buy an elderly man is very real we really did. Whenever there was that located in Decatur.

[02:14:03]
Corner of North to Kato road and Claremont right at the corner and well behaved well you know right where that I'd like to have the evidence if a mile. OK So you know rented a space and then one of your classmates decided to come into the garage with low res as players about January to get together.

[02:14:26]
Yes and wait where he worked on getting the building changed the file of all that they want to they want to make it that way so he was looking forward to reading it. So he remodeled it for our offices and you had separate offices but you're back to whatever I mean we had the entire first floor yes they had each had a separate office and we had a that is stuff that I have and a pediatrician downstairs in the basement and what you did is you put out your sign.

[02:14:55]
And you waited for people to come through. I waited for people to go. Yeah. And those days people didn't put ads in the paper or anything just had to get real pearls. Yeah. And so people did start to come. Well I had had a year at Georgia bad years and got pretty well acquainted with people I had from.

[02:15:16]
A lot of physician not physicians a lot of pastors because Georgia Babis provided medical services if they wanted it. Whole state of Georgia. OK and I had it. I had a patient as far away as well as West me and that was coming over and he was coming to me and I kept trying to get him to get a doctor close of it he never did but he was one of several prior steps.

[02:15:47]
So I had a I had a little age on my partner who part of I had spent his last year in research and he had a network as my older doctor. Creating the material really really. Researching and building the apparatus for kidney dialysis. You never had to dialysis during I was yeah I know my part I spent years yeah life years that are being raised and such.

[02:16:26]
He was doing this research. So he didn't have their exposure to patients like I did. So when the end of the first year first Hevia came. And we began to sample our bills and we had a total of twelve hundred dollars and we. It was based on the patients that we've seen.

[02:16:50]
And I got eight hundred dollars of it and he got four hundred dollars of it because he just didn't feel like I had as big a practice we always had about the same practice as time went on and you enjoyed practicing where you really were in the right place.

[02:17:05]
You know things were going had good as ever the days a lot of friends. Zation and the medical world when I first began practice in fifty one or when I was a GA batters. A lot of doctors were so-called general practitioners they would do surgery they would do very little of it.

[02:17:24]
Treat your heart for a longer you know appendix your kidneys you whatever and quite a number of those people who probably didn't practice and they began to drift away and people began to go a little more into internal medicine or just surgery. And it was the beginning of the age of specialization years have to exactly right.

[02:17:50]
What it began and it became more so prominent now that's a primary care doctors don't even go to the hospital anymore they have now had orderly by specialists and hospital. That's right. After all you say you were still you were at the edge of where people still had a family doctor kind of person that counted on for everything.

[02:18:12]
Well you have to because I was with a lot of other. Yeah a good many people in Decatur and you mentioned that you made house calls a lot of House Call that averaged I would average at least six a day and whether to have a lot of lot of HOUSECALL course.

[02:18:28]
And now that's unheard of. You know hospitals hospital always hospital rounds probably twice a day going to hospital in the morning go to your office. To HOUSE CALL. All in the morning. Maybe at noon. Rather than watching the movie you were doing it with the horse and buggy you were doing it with a car that's right.

[02:18:50]
I had a car they had to make sure yeah well that's good that's good that's going to HOUSECALL over just pattern then I don't know different everybody else to do it. They were doing it every other get the little black bag and go call and try to factorize still got my little but by I do you how wonderful and I don't wonder.

[02:19:06]
Well. So may I ask if you belong to the amir the Atlanta Medical Association during their time. Do you have to go have a ted to Calcutta. Yeah. You never went to the meetings that the cademy of medicine or did you want to Thomas one time or two I was a I for one here I was the president of the fifth District Medical Association which met once a year that's of A.K.O. and them times and I had a bank.

[02:19:38]
How did it how to build a hotel. Yes even have a better lives yet you know that now belongs to Georgia Tech. How did. Yeah it's all been restored or not desired by this was a speaker a doctor from New London and he made it fit all the way to a lad of this if they talk to.

[02:20:03]
But Turner said today that particular meeting which was. First District medical was so meager and always had been for years. Apparently. That it went all one more year and then it disbanded. So I was the president of the year they did and they had and I got this guy from a player.

[02:20:27]
Well you had the experience of going to the academy then never knowing that one day it would become part of Georgia Tech's lived I've been there a time or two before where That's right. And then. But I was a member of the K. I would carry medical society and medical association of Georgia and American Medical Association.

[02:20:48]
Well I was pretty standard procedure and I was a force and you practiced out of Georgia Baptist Hospital where else do you have privileges I want my first eight years I practice Georgia barrister at Emory Emory Hospital. Yeah probably a little more a little bit more than I had Georgia barriers and a little slightly less than I am right because and those days you see the same way.

[02:21:14]
Clearly you could not it was just beginning and I was actors in the community doing the practice at Emory as well as yeah we want to go to jail for whatever you want to go to. And then they built the Caleb hospital and I team six he won an open and I did sixty one.

[02:21:34]
So I gave up going to those two places continued about two years at each place and then just folded donated detailed totally So you're closer for every There's closest And if you're of this brain you are practicing doctor at a hospital you're involved. You've got to take place party and.

[02:21:57]
Special programs you've got to be on the graduation program you got to be on the. This and that you know the program. To be I want to go into hospital to have the same programs at both hospitals nobody has that's too much to do with any kind of a practice Yeah.

[02:22:16]
Medicare I was close already were you know could not close a member but it was there was a new hospital and. And I Are you continue this practice while you moved your practice eventually to another location. And I stayed the same office. You stayed right there. Clell No I had built I've always down the street.

[02:22:36]
I thought you told me I don't hundred yards or so down the street and built. Just the way you wanted it. Well I didn't follow that. Here we were going to try to take in another doctor with us. And here he would have to build all of the building we were willing to do but he was going to raise the rear significantly.

[02:22:56]
So we got a piece of property they got one hundred yards down the bottom of the hill. It's still there and the building is still like yesterday and have two daughters that came in with me later. Stayed there for all what I'm more tired about nineteen. Ten years later because he was ten years younger than I was ninety ninety five and the other one been all call all retired about two three years ago.

[02:23:25]
So they stay for their have both here and in town. I see you with regularity and talk to them. Right. And you yourself retired in one nine hundred eighty five maybe floats your I don't have to know that life when I retire. You just left your private practice.

[02:23:40]
That's correct. For that anyway. Tired from private practice you told me that and then you when your wife you when Jean moved up to her. Well George that's correct and you have a house up there or the House something I did there. But yeah I don't have anything open.

[02:23:56]
No I'm not you did build yourself a house of brick. It was what we call semi retired in that you were I guess your wife's. Well located well it wasn't the responsibility like I had of the private practice I was I was a full bore and private practice as any other doctor but up saying I was going to get another cleric and we went to work at a very very quickly to a certain time of day and I did and no such thing as house calls and I felt as I was that particular organization that clinics really took care of two counties she told me her county in Franklin County and yes correct and you were became because it was book White by law an employee of the state of Georgia has a right period of time and you did volunteer work there for fifteen years or so my valentine I think you simply volunteer you were paid a pittance so would pretty much trust us just as to what was it was a regular practice I mean you're still too well I was the only medical doctor.

[02:24:53]
That's pretty good practice and you know the doctors of the car first because it was also a factor of prominent prominently already on how you measure. But just your first all lived in Gainesville and they would come up to I for that day's work and go back and lot of days they wouldn't call and I would take their place.

[02:25:22]
So you know I don't have I became I was like I had never wanted to be a first and I never became the first doctor to see a psychiatric patient that was nothing I want to I didn't know but you did I wouldn't be with their medicines their drugs were getting good results.

[02:25:39]
I'm not doing well having trouble with them. I was involved with that. That's what we call general maintenance. I guess you like certain general make there I was I would never see a psychiatric patient and missionary and prescribe for him or diagnose him. I just didn't want to do that in two thousand or about you told me two thousand maybe two.

[02:26:03]
And one you know back you go back to Decatur That's correct. That's correct. And then fully retired. Right right. You fully Well I went to work at detail as a volunteer for ten years. Did you really didn't tell me that either. OK say I was ten years from two thousand and one or two somewhere two thousand and two I guess it was I do live out of the war that a year ago I continued to work it became almost as a while until it's a volunteer found to your doctor.

[02:26:37]
No not as a doctor. Just hold on to your walk a high right got you down. All right so there's plenty of knowledge your work to do is going to drive for example while I was working volunteered and hardware on. I had to keep my license and my medical you know but here you do not have it but here I volunteer might be a floor sweeper or I had to have to work in the medic and the emergency room I had two jobs one day and they emerged and one day in the library.

[02:27:09]
Well kind of my daughter was a librarian. So I had I was two jobs for ten years. That's amazing. So you worked until just this past year. Well that's right. I may although I have a little bit. I. I began to have so much trouble about my back that I had to quit because we were on our feet too many hours you know all the time.

[02:27:34]
Yeah. Roger and never sat down. We didn't do any doctoring we were just moving patients throughout leaving make up. We had moved from one clinic to another Clare to go to the actual A.O.S. here the orderly and that's a hard job it's got all really that very hard time working for good folks and well you just nobody can say you didn't contribute why you sure did.

[02:27:59]
Now I want you to tell me about your family. We know. You mentioned that gene is here and she has advanced Alzheimer's. I correct. So she's rather very advanced I think so. She says it's very sad to hear. Yes you. He did know who I am I visit every day when I go to quit because I think it impairs the work at they can do.

[02:28:23]
They're good people play and I think my daughter and I both think so much time with us with her with her. That they just sort of back off. We come every day I was coming every day and she still coming every day and so they got a way to vent you don't know us and they they may actually I'm not sure what I grew a little bit and didn't even know the difference anyway so why else was so sad to hear him you knew a dollar a she said My daughter had been AM a month or so daughter was here yesterday and today when she's there.

[02:29:06]
She knows perfectly well what a day that it's her daughter and she knows that I'm somebody if you know it's just not so I just don't know who I am. So sad. This is typical I call it. Senile dementia because of all the clinical perspective. Also I was and seeing a major clinical effect is about the same maybe use your thinking powers your memory.

[02:29:38]
But pathologically they're significantly different in the brain right. And they're. But I think of them as also I want to make call in late fifty's and quite commonly in the sixty's and early seventy's. And senile dementia which is a clinic Lou say but it has a different path.

[02:29:59]
ALL OF IT COMES ON use when the. Eight is a night is actually no way I couldn't care less if most people speak but also I was up there to talk about Also I was well that's but there's a actually different diseases here clinically their fact is a difficult.

[02:30:19]
It's a little different time. Don't say it. Tell me about your children and when is your son and what did Alan do for a living. I learned as I was son born and New London a cause he's sixty nine years old he has his foot. I got back into the scouts when he was in the scouts and rare.

[02:30:42]
I would get a lot of wonderful time I was George W. I time I know that and I Here are the made fifty's to sixty eight where we didn't make a trip further than first Adams but Arabs we would go every year to Florida for a week's Yeah camp and things like that and other to other places.

[02:31:10]
And so I really enjoyed all the ever wonderful through clear indicator. And he made Eagle himself and he has been a professional scout he was System executive. So he went into scholarly answers go to Charleston area. And several of the areas of Charleston. Covered by the Charleston section.

[02:31:38]
And then he was transferred to Birmingham and still assisted executive and later to take a big executive in northern Mississippi and then he was French word to the Home Office and Texas and there has been ever since to his retirement. He retired about three years ago. Boy Scouts and that he was very active in the scout smile.

[02:32:06]
He goes to the big campus and New Mexico call Philmont Yan you've been there. This you. He makes trips to the scouts. How wonderful that he's a life he was a both professional scholar. So here is wife who lives and so he still lives in Texas and he's still in taxes and he's coming tomorrow night.

[02:32:29]
Bill you spent about nearly a week you know we're going to tell me about every every two or three March flies over here. That's wonderful. And now he had he married and has one child. They have an eye doctor and child I never heard that you know about him because that child lived with.

[02:32:47]
What your grandson my grandson came to them and I were having to be this by peer chairs I have to be visiting them in Charleston and the table is about what age the age of one week. Yeah. And so he's he's just exactly like a normal child of course even here in a doctor job.

[02:33:09]
What career did he follow when after their son my grandson but went to the middle road to the Air Force Academy. I spent five years after that had a very in the Air Force. And he is remained far as I know he's if he's out and they Air Force Reserves he's not active at all in a war and he lives where he lives in Phoenix Arizona.

[02:33:40]
OK So he's and he is married to a doctor. Dr physical M.D. and M.D. Yeah that is correct and they have two children. That's correct. So you have two great grandchildren that's correct. And I know more from ever say they don't know the word because it's far far away.

[02:33:57]
Yeah I still it's nice to have I thought I have heirs and that's what I have it is God he's a. He's a full blown Texan I don't think he'll ever leave for some several reasons he's so oriented to Texas. Plus they use halfway exactly almost a mile between Phoenix and Atlanta.

[02:34:17]
But there you go I think that location. Now tell me about your daughter you know I don't I don't I was he was born while I was in medical school and she. When she graduated from Vanderbilt. I just came back to work in the library Emory and worked there quite a long time for quite a long time mini marts by the year I say.

[02:34:43]
And then she decided to go to library school which ever had is that time I don't have a lot of risk of the moment. But she graduated from. Library **** with a masters and went to work with her to Georgia and a new library special high as a library and worked there a year and she was so we are going so new.

[02:35:06]
I think. She left because of people under her. All of the people and I think. I think she fails they resented her being just a graduate of library school. So she left there after almost exactly a year and went to work and Highlands. As a waitress. You know there's a big.

[02:35:32]
Georgia. Development. And hollers just north of How about three miles and she worked as a waitress and worked a full year as a waitress and little in the. And then came back to take care of her as their first librarian and it's been a librarian ever since she was the founding director of that library.

[02:35:56]
She is the director of the library. Plus the fact that she has been in George totally in charge of. Educational Program and the hospital here. And she's there for about seven or eight years. And she resigned from there about a year ago hired a new person through the hospital trained that lady quit about eight weeks ago two months ago because she lives a hallway I don't know why she ever took a job.

[02:36:34]
The first place. So now Marilyn has now just a month ago rehired a new close and and is trying to train them. So she's back to working full time when she tried to reduce the work to just raise a lot of prayer. So the other lady is supposed to take over the medical education portion.

[02:36:56]
It's made a directory is it not enough job to have two people instead of just and say she'd work to have a really good program that can actually just work too hard you know way too hard and now she's got both of us on our hands a lady up stairs a mother and me to look after.

[02:37:14]
Well I'm sure she's quite delighted to be looking after you sir. It has been such a pleasure to spend time with you today. But I listen to your story. Laura Joy talking with you and I will already coveted your own being such a wealth of life for all and we're a very very short person to interview people we're a very good story to you has been a light lighter to work work with you.

[02:37:41]
Well it's our pleasure certainly welcome to watch for a large amount of every guy you. Talk to but well thank you for being a rambling wreck. Thank you for giving us your story to tell you know it. We're very grateful. Sorry got you confused on that but no no we're fine.

[02:38:04]
It was a good day long walk.