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>> This is a living history interview with John Howie class of 957 conducted by Marilyn summers on February 3rd the year 2009 we are at his office in Tampa Florida and the subject of our interview today his life in general his experiences at Georgia Tech Mr John how we I'm going to call you Jay right at your next name and you've given me that permission thank you so much for letting us take your afternoon to hear your story we're happy to be in Tampa the sun is shining and let's have it so tell me 1st are where were you born and when you say we Connecticut 1932 January 13th.

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Your Yankee forto your bar way up there to go back to you by actually doesn't know doesn't realize that yeah tell me what were your parents doing in New Haven Connecticut why were they there well our father. Was teaching physics at Yale he'd gotten his Ph d. there earlier I think 1928 or something like that and.

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My mother had a vast degree in the child education that's extraordinary both of your parents very well educated right 7 times that was pretty unusual yes but yes it was now so there there established academics where you're the 1st born of their children yes you know one of the 1st and the only the best came 1st.

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Not really so I they there you were with a older parents or you were they were older they already had acquired their degrees right. My father had gotten his Ph d. at Yale wanted to get his others agree it was her college you know high my mother was a higher Westland university you know high and they met in Boston I guess they knew each other of course they live close to each other you know highly Yes but And then really met on the east and married I wish I'd said older just because I presume if they went through all of that it occasionally I think they were ahead 36 when you were born right here you know and.

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They sat in a home apartment What do you remember as your 1st place well it was it was a red house and I remember I was an artist an early eighty's and had prance and there Loma. Larry Wall and specifically remember that can you remember that yeah that's my 1st remembers it rarely if ever I was drawing on the wall of course I put some silverware down that I had a fireplace and I put some software down the trash chute and I was disciplined for that.

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Those are the 2 things but the the really visual thing I remember was the Yale quadrangle where they yeah library was they were stone buildings it were the original Yale University and I remember my mother taking me around. Walking around that and walking into the library with the high would sort of Gothic ceilings and that's my 1st architecture remember wow if you were probably preschool this is before you started school yeah Yes I know because I was I guess 3 when I came to Atlanta maybe you can remember before you were 3 Yeah that's quite extraordinary because a lot of people don't remember back that far Well this is a really unusual sunny day for the Haven Connecticut being up north where there are a lot of gray winter day so I guess that was a reason Just a store necessary for a little one so after 8 years of age you hadn't started school yet they left there and I have to where well they moved to Atlanta.

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And what were the circumstances why well my father. Got his degree at Yale and had a 4 year contract to teach physics there. At the end of the 4 years they did not renew his teaching time and he had one offer from Georgia Tech please come to Georgia Tech will make you have the physics department.

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2nd year there. And they kept their promise. Come Trius out and they will promote you big time right. And this your dad was in his early thirty's mid right he's right by that time yeah and let's see you said you were born in 32 so it was like 935 right before the 5 when they came down.

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Kind of the end of the Depression time tough times were tough maybe that's why he didn't have any other offers exactly he was like was getting close to desperate you know with a wife and a child at the time but the depression was not over in Atlanta. Because I can remember probably 39 or 40 people coming to our front door asking for food and that made quite an impression on me that at that age I didn't understand what let's talk about your dad sure when I asked you if we could do the story I said you're going to 2 stories your life or your dad story and since we've just gotten him down there let's talk about your Dad let's talk about his background what do you know about him what do you know about the how his family well there was a large family he had one brother and 3 sisters.

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They all ended up being professionals either in nursing for the for the you was or maybe for the sisters as one brother was a contract they had another brother who was a. Well go to say black sheep of the family he was a minister. Well that's God that took lack of a she said she was a minute well he moved from church to church and they always were a little short of money when he left so it was a colorful minutes and yes he was very well whereas the rest of the family was very on the straight and narrow and I was right in there and yes do you remember your grandparents I remember my grandfather tell me about you know he was a farmer and he had retired to Daytona Beach which gave me my 1st taste of Florida.

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And they went down he was ill and passed away and I remember the nurse took care of him in the hospital and her husband took me out to fish I actually didn't catch a fish but they caught one and they said I caught it in a corner and they took me to a restaurant and cooked it you know it's a really great experience for you know how intimate How do you think you were well I was probably this was 37 probably you were still very young area so you couldn't have known your grandfather very well no I really didn't I just know about him yes I saw him physically there in the hospital but but you said that all of his children went to college no the sisters did not but although I thought you said they were on their asses or well yes but I guess that that time you could just go to the school nurse and you know how hard it occasions that yes they did that's quite extraordinary and is he was a farmer that was pretty extraordinary that he could you know would instill in them the idea of an educated well the West or college was very close to the farming community geographically so so they and they were going to was there was the largest town near all the farms where they would go on the weekends and so so they knew about it and were.

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Influenced by this place that for me geographically in Ohio Well it's sort of the North Sea. Central or south of Cleveland about I think I know where it is I just wanted to make sure my head so I could place that right so parents having come from there you visit his grandfather there you think maybe when you were right I don't think members so you're only members was going to his funeral after he had passed right away and grandmother you have no memory of there she had passed away earlier did you have contacted all was the answer in the over a month or so of my all growing up period.

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My father and mother both being teachers would have longer summers off particular my father and so we would go to Ohio and want to have to visit and would spend maybe a month there which was a very nice time of the year to be there and exposed to.

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Farming slightly family. On the mother's side they were there were more farmers and you could see something about cousins did you know Lots of a lot because once we they all were mostly in Ohio we were really the ones that way it was a vagabond right and the reason I ask is as an only child sometimes that's a long Lee position to hold Well not really because I didn't have any trouble making friends and then we had at Georgia Tech the 1st house my parents had there was an alley that connected to the street over and they had 5 children in their family and that was so you bonded right off the bat for them then their father was a Georgia Tech faculty person's So here your family background the house family background was farming and they were dad went off to college which would have been Me to You went to was to college for right and then yeah and then too yeah which is pretty that's pretty impressive you know that it got into you know money went to you know and so that Ok then he meets your mother for you think they knew each other when they were in Ohio Well sure the surely the.

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Good question and then let's talk about your mom's side of the family what do you remember from them well they they were very interesting people they were more colorful and my dad's side. I had they were more social. My mother had 3 brothers and one sister and. The brothers all were very active in sports and dance school.

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To finish college and the other sister did that which is unusual identity Wally one. Brother didn't go to college he was the best athlete of the group and they were interesting because they were younger than my dad's side and so I related a little more to them and I actually spent one summer on a farm which I hated of the one I who was a farmer but it was it was a good looking back it was a very good history of the time you were at that scene that.

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Yes I will never forget the hard work yes it was and I saw something you were accustomed to doing so true but it was a good growing up experience for you well that's where mother told me you appreciate the agrarian afterwards I. But the and then one was.

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Was when one was a y.m.c.a. director his whole life and travel around in the was probably closest to them because they ended up in Florida. And then so you remember going your summer and visiting with them right and took my 1st airplane ride with one of the brothers want to see that's wonderful to have Alcoa take you for a plane ride right that was cool and then the the other the sports uncle always related to him because I was you know fairly good in sports and he was he was a very good baseball player and I remember one of the last things I did with him when he was early we snuck off to the.

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Football Hall of Fame in Canton Ohio to see that all my mother was totally opposed to she said she just wants to take the trip she was to visit all the other relatives but he and I took off and it was the 1st time I'd gone so that was a good experience with him and it's kind of like being wild and crazy rap was high he just went off anyway then the other causing a wild or a crazy revelry was.

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Like the socialized you know detail have a break in this sort of thing and was. Various in the out of doors and so he was a great influence isn't that interesting especially when you sit here look back at they really were a great influence on you I think so yes the things that make it your passion about now came from exposure to them and their them being closer to my age and their children my age because I was the youngest.

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Child in my father's family group and I was really at the oldest I guess and then the other girl and the other side so I had the best of both and I guess you just once your folks moved to Atlanta. That you said you think your dad might have been a little desperate had to get some place to raises some money to raise a family right do you to your knowledge Jay have you ever been to Atlanta before he accepted the position I don't think so.

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So it was kind of like it was a good offer and he was going Yeah I don't know whether he made a trip down the interview probably I don't know at that time you know they would have made it as they would have a professional meetings and he had to be recruited had a meeting that George is very very possible Yeah and you mentioned to me before but you didn't mention now that Georgia Tech was looking for professors from 5 elite schools the Ivy League schools because of the prestige they brought exactly so they were more than happy to hire him just on his credentials that's right I didn't need to see him out actually just one of them to come right so the family bundles up and moves here you're just a lad I mean you write you had a good memory so what's your earliest Atlanta memory a shower a shower which I think we came in the summertime and it was a stream of human and land as it can be and we were staying on possibly And I remember the street we were on an a hotel and I'd never been a shower before and my dad pulls me in with them in the show it was the greatest Ferris it was wonderful horse part of the whole army because everything else had been a tub you know up to that time so that's that's water coming from above.

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And the great memories you have a great memory and then the 1st ice storm in Atlanta which they had a rented house off of constantly on the 1st year so they were there probably the 1st year they were there there was this really bad ice storm where your limbs fell off of trees and I mean we took.

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So fat out the breadcrumbs to feed the birds there was never seen this before and I had seen snow and seen a lot of the Connecticut but you've never seen that ladder so you were you were very impressionable and we were making impressions right well there are mostly visual eventually did I mean that was the 1st year then did they look to buy a house call yes I did 2 on the campus tell me where.

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Well it was on 4th Street and 4th. It was a modest house move a nice house. And the only way they were able to buy my mother her father had died and she inherited some money because you could there was no mortgages then there were very few banks in the thirty's even as opposed to now and so if you had cash you could own a house so I'm forced there were no mortgages but was the nearest cross street Force Tech Tech would all k. Now I got a place exactly where you would say the core of tech would enforce Street is now the same a car fraternity house but at that time it was the president's house President ventilator live there and really you know this was this was before he built the mansion now I'm jumping ahead because you are because he wasn't even there yet that's the president I'm trying to remember who the president was I remember Britain you know Dr m.l. Britain Yeah and he lived over on North Avenue or did the president's house next to the all why building which is the only really I didn't have in the yeah that was the Britain residence you know during the earlier part of his presidency and then eventually he built himself a house and was Peachtree well moved over to there so I didn't know that he lived right on the campus ever but he could have but what band leader did I don't know whether.

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My mom remembers of a president is present family or well the family or so to hop on the house on 5th street that was one block up not 5th it was for the corner of 4th and tech with. Not because Mrs Van layers eventually turned that into the Alpha v. house maybe they own that house all had they may have had but at the time Sam eventually and I were about 2 years apart in age and he was right there to play with yeah yeah middle daughter merrily was older but she still looked over a sweet hazel or so and that was residences that was not there was always is you know very nice residence and so your memory was there were always kids to play with and right on were you aware of what your dad did for a living only through going to the physics building and he was very good about demonstrating things in physics to me he had a real interest and besides being a really good teacher he had an interest in doing laboratory experiments for the students and even wrote a lab manual which I'll tell you a little bit more in a minute but I can remember saying the 1st television to the c.r.t. to it was green but it had a sine wave on it and he thought this is really great.

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And I was sort of not awed by but it was interesting you know it just looked like a big to do with when you think about what a physics professor all the little tricks they can do to type children into being interested in science right Mr Wizard you know that well he had he had that sort he had those sorts of demonstrations that which were really interested me.

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And then also he had the largest computer I've ever seen i.b.m.. You had a he was in a room that was about 12 feet but 15 feet he was enormous that puts the cars but I would be later than when you were you know this is I was probably 12 or yeah 15 years old but we're going to fast I want to back up and tell me Ok we started school when did you start school where well we we were in preschool another ban it I'm sorry I jumped ahead here but that's something a lot but.

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That's where I met my best friend place in Canada we pull each other's hair in preschool and we became fast friends after that where was it it was awful possibly and there where the 1st house my parents lived in 1st rental house and at that point. My mother was teaching part time you know Priscu And you know I was part of her spam and I guess and and then my best friend's mother was also teaching preschool so that's so that we the 2 of you had much time and yeah and and then at that point we moved to the Tech campus course my focus changed a bit although we were still good friends and I would see Cho other but with all of the tech faculty kids there including Sammy ventilator.

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It was a great atmosphere and you know we redid lifesaving swimming courses there and they had they had a good summer set of courses for kids or where did you go to elementary school we went to Spring Street Elementary School which was already down about a mile away but there were actually it was safe enough where she was there in a group he said he went to school every day walking you know which I guess and so you probably were.

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But I guess it wouldn't want to do it now it's and somehow survived it now that Spring Street School is still there and there's a center for Puppetry here now and with the whole building has all been you know maintained and it's still there so that would be a trip down memory lane for you it really would that's a good little trek from the campus I bet most over a mile isn't I don't know but it's just when you think of everything as between there now we very dangerous but no I was there was it was very happy no worries there were still street cars.

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Although I don't really remember I'm sure there were no if it were on Spring Street that were on West pastry street Ok you're right yeah I think Spring Street maybe I could be wrong free was was not. The face of the funeral home you remember that yeah and that's still there in a lot of woods Yeah that's about the only billing is still there and it was really quite rural That is what you're saying is yeah I was on trash.

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Did you like school yesterday Ok never any teachers from that time well remember the principal she was a lovely person and. I can remember Mrs Adams and she was terrible I had a very embarrassing moment my parents very seldom went out to restaurants but we went to a restaurant outing matter and I was talking about what a horrible day I was had Mrs Adamson is my teacher that you know what to hold and she was kind of ugly I don't know most of the Screws about her purse she had another teacher sitting next to us No your mother must have been ordered mortified So was she she was she had several border for Taishan situations.

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Because the. Price she might haue you still gave her the business case yeah that's wonderful though it's wonderful and it's wonderful you remember her name Yeah because no one does you know they're gone and nobody remembers that she was probably a really good teacher but she was a little stern you know and.

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So we had a lot of energy you know many years did you stay in the spring state school well through. 12 years old 6 grade to 6th grade Yes And then you would have transferred to a middle school I always write like Waco actually but that took a sabbatical.

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7th grade we went to we were in the boss and he was he did research at mit for a year how interesting so he took you out of school and you got to go up back up and it was the greatest fans wow I learned about sports they had a good sports program I learned about track and field which done a bit and.

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Just a different group and that's where 1st really was influenced architecture there was in a architecture land of. The 6th grade you know I'm sure that all there was a College of Architecture for tax but there wasn't there wasn't like admirable buildings like you would find in Chicago or New Yorker and Boston and so several famous architects buildings.

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So you know you were intrigued and Very much so and also at that time I'd been taking court art lessons at the High Museum My mother did that in the summer tell me about that well that's where they're there is to percussive and some of the other artists that they had on display probably you know 5th the 6th grade that went to high was the big house party it was that when the High Museum was in a big house yes it was in the highest of high school yeah yeah I mean right yeah it was before we had the Myer design that we have right so you know if you would would you walk there I think I probably was taken by car maybe I don't you know maybe I don't remember that I remember we mother shopped at the 14th Street there was quite a nice shopping area there and then there was a movie.

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Theater there that had European movies that was quite good where Margaret Mitchell went and had her accident that's what did you get to go to those movies so sure Susan as soon as we were old enough they we kids where we would go the tech with theater they had a theater right there the rights of the right with kid stuff yeah I mean mentalist Gordon is serials.

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I don't always and it was every Saturday and they always had a double feature and so you know for $0.10 a ticket or whatever it was we we would love to go there but when you mentioned European films that's more art films which we can take you to that to no no they started to do this on we did it on our own we had one older brother among the group that sort of entered their sister thinks culture Yes So here you are going to the high to take drawing lessons.

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Where you could if you like art Well yes so they're very much you know I kept taking it. And then also and what they do bring local artists and to do this on the weekends Well we did. We did the news at that early days but. They had courses like that that.

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Attack we actually took our courses in the architecture firm and we took over the hammy Sam but I remember talking when you're a kid more water color and. Mostly mostly water color was what I took it had anything at that time when you were living on the campus and now this is still when you're still on Spring Street so I still have you under 12 years of age you know Ok did you were you exposed to the students.

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Did the did any of the college students come to see your dad at home or did you see them walking around Sure sure so you know we all had porches we'll have front porches Ok So that was where your socialite today went on in the thirty's and early forty's so somebody could come by and they'd sit on the steps of the fellow I've talked to talks about that you know so I remember my dad talking to students and actually we had a this is a little bit later we had a math professor who we had a garage apartment in back over the garage and my parents rented that out sure and I'm here and I'm from a math professor of mine k.c. Bormann Now I'm jumping ahead a little bit but I was probably in junior high school and the older brother of the.

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Bobbin Ovi Hester both went to Georgia Tech their dad was a tech Ralph Hefner and so we went to the far east we go to Fox Theater you know. And they would yeah we could walk there too and so the older brother would buy the ticket and then open the side door so you were one of those happy if you waited on the side for someone to crack the door and then you already had Yeah it's about a fight because probably more than $0.10 there yes and then I had a.

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Gypsy Rose Lee who was there but she was scandalous well just snorted by r. and you weren't even in junior high yet I don't sleep. Well somebody was saying to your education that's what this is what happened on a college campus this right and then there was. Gypsy Rose Lee on stage you know and she called for somebody to come out from the audience who had to be Casey boarding the math professor with health roads for courses There you guys were your 1st clue that we could help her.

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She said woman you know what if you told that here you have been telling on yourself that's true for a lot of funny stuff. What a great memory too so the Vauxhall says special memories for you very much so we went through a number of things. The did you ever go to the opera there on the met my mother tried influence me but I wasn't your culture doesn't chip for that we would go the same finale regularly my wife and me I mean at that time at that time no.

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So I thought I'd ask as I know that there was always priority and my mother would always go yes it was near and dear to a lot of the students because they got big parts they would fight super role right now I was a supposed in Boston to the Boston Pops while you were there was my 1st experience you know in the 7th grade and we sat in the balcony and they had a pop concert you know where they had tables and they served wine and everything and that was a great influence and then I went to a really fancy restaurant afterwards with my parents and we had baked Alaska for these are you know one of the broad enflaming well and that was Faneuil Hall which is still there yes and the restaurant is still there too what a great year that was yeah that was probably the big year that I started to see the rest of the world and interesting you know but back you came to Atlanta right and your dad went back to work right out for one year right when he came back he would go into Junior High Way Right right where to go so things like soap box derby we got involved in that when the Boy Scouts Yeah Cub Scouts and Boy Yeah the Girl Scout the whole bit Wow that's really a big accomplishment Well there were a whole group of us from tech that brought on this particular group e. street Christian church and.

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The interest was that there was sports back to you know because we were day gars in the fall at the Georgia Tech football games we had one was a coach at the University of Alabama I was a scout master it was a really out those. As athletic height.

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Scout Troop we would play touch football in the darkness which I don't know where the scout master really allowed us to but nobody ever really got badly injured at home so which is which junior high school did you go to well we went to. When I came back and went to O'Keefe which I hated really it was right there yeah but it was not the best high school and.

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It was a junior high then yes but then they switched to combine a junior high with a with the same and we got special dispensation I think it was just their year and then at that time it was grade which was Obama's high tech high was a really good high school to go to and we were bussed in reverse I don't know how the tech.

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People were able to get us all there but all we when you say human faculty children yeah faculty children were able to go there they wanted to go do you suppose they realized that O'Keefe wasn't good enough for you definitely yeah and so they wanted you to be over at boys' high Yeah but it was again a great he had school then it was covered in a good high school system before it was what it was after it was Boy Scout Boy I'll tell you yeah there were 3 school boys high tech high and got a point of perspective and you went into that you think of the 8th grade then probably 93 was great Ok that's great you know now I've heard times of stories about people who went to school over there that was really a good system it was because the faculty there were programming people to the call but tech college or whatever it definitely yeah so you were getting a good solid education right yeah and plus where.

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We were there was a Jewish neighborhood there there and those kids were really smart we had to compete with those kids but we had a we really had a plus because there are about 4 or 5 of us in the same class and we were stick together if we were really really in a tough class we'd all get together my.

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It afterwards and figure out how to do the homework or this is great we're learning about group study are right yeah yeah who do you remember by name. 45 of us got together you said her well and are all slow the to have her voice. Now was that Dr Russell Dr yes daughter c. had 5 children Ok the last one was a surprise she was a pretty s. one but.

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But that is a rate. Yeah they would just occur across the back at the Georgia Tech now owns the houses they are because of the architectural work they are thinking about based so it was an Russell low and it was no Ross low and. I can't think of the youngest daughter and then they cross a lot who was in Boy Scouts with us and they moved out from there also Judy Harris was over there he was a sculptor and so we knew Mike both to him yet to know you know what a wonderful legendary people you were being Yeah and I had known for a marvelous architect they was the.

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One all sorts of honors for his work known nationally internationally he's to this day is very is very studied and people scholars often come to tech and look at things in the city that he's done yes and he was sort of a breath of fresh air to be around I hear he was a character he was.

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Like do you like to drink and a little bit yeah a little bit now you know enough my parents never. Saw my father take one beer it was like a series with lowered chase and he was dean of manners whatever who. I know but he lived next door to us but on my dad's porch and I was just amazed a summit that's like in a big.

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But you were definitely brought up in a teetotaler House very much so yeah a little while the bigger my dad was serving alcoholic beverages when he had the facts when he was for others but he just didn't partake right that was that I guess for the times the hospitality of the times you know.

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Was there when you were at Grady and you were all together in a group and you said you banded together academics were important to you you wanted it actually and sport that was my next question Did you participate in sports and definitely. The dating girls but but your athletic sports pages and you even had dances yeah Brady at that time I am a dancer that such.

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But but what we were more interested in girls and other high schools we would go the varsity after football games not that we were we were interested in largely our. Sphere of Influence you know so was it the girls going to Grady that interest to do with it I was there with a very interesting girls and girls how I probably was more attractive well at that time there's no more girls that had gone so it was all co it so so in sports let's watch basketball basketball we the football course was a terrible coach he was also the basketball coach with George Abbott who was the director of the y.m.c.a. in Atlanta took an interest and we boys probably because the Sammy band leader and some others and none of us want to play basketball for the coach there so.

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So he formed formed a y.m.c.a. team when we played statewide we traveled here for 2 years we won the Georgia state championship did you play from the y. on the campus or from the Lucky St was Lucky Street was straight yeah it was and actually I worked there as a counter person and I was good experience because.

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George felt like my life was a little sequestered and I was trying to hold the boys he was trying to give it strange to he was a mentor too while he really was he was a great person he was outside of Georgia Tech he was probably by biggest influence and the Y.M.C.A.'s going on today and I've been active in why ever since again another influence from the past.

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When you say that he he's the one who actually poached you then yes I had he was a he when he was a coach and he was even a good coach he was a tall fellow he had probably played never really ask him but I'm sure he played basketball somewhere for Were you ever able to avail yourselves as young men of this is high school nights 10th grade of any of the facilities at Georgia Tech Well swimming over the in the summer so the old Heisman gym you would yeah there yeah and we could see that as a had to make Freddy living Very much so he was a big influence because he ran the the summer courses for such events so he did know there is usually a football player which is a special interest to the to the lady to the young ladies.

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He was was sort of the lifeguard there in the summer fall so that they had done that was a very treacherous for you know tell me about Freddie one knew you as you got to know him you know he was a worry muscular guy and. Had a commanding an appearance for a size and yeah people can argue with Freddie Yeah and he.

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Had developed the sly saving course which we all took turns out the drum proofing had absolutely but I'm interested in him And we'll talk about this when you're in school but you're still like a little kid you're not even know you know it yet and you were exposed to him then now was he trying to teach you drown for a scene then.

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Probably not know probably not how you got include it we got our. Life saying. Senior life saving was later on a junior life say we're actually acquiring certifications right now and we were doing through we were swimming lessons I actually just had a wonderful thing yeah you know when you think about it you had a pretty I don't like coming up I really did I mean it was a great drawing appeared to be a Tech campus and I have access to all of that yeah plus the role models of the better students that were rolling around in the right and you had the varsity right juniors Yeah all of these things were their 10th attempt was and you weren't even couch and you were buddies but I thought Sure we were whatever we could get a supposed to.

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You weren't a college prep courses at Grady you know knowing you were going to go to college there was no question never wanted me and there were a question that I was not going to go to college for your parents or that background I'm sure that was a plus you were good you were you were I was headed well right dancing right but when the time came to choose a college you didn't choose Georgia Tech Well no I don't want to stay at home home of the eternal dilemma right well I was reading this very I didn't my dad was easy to deal or with my mother was more.

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Instructive is to use an assertive maybe assertive and so I was very one of the b.s. in your family even though your dad had a funding name you told me. Yeah I would say she probably did tell me about your dad's nickname Well this like years later you did know what I know I did not know it at the time this was a well this is not a funny story when I was a student that tech I took a survey in course so the next summer I worked for a construction company and did surveying work on the hospital on Peachtree Street and then also another business billing for.

[00:39:36]
The construction coming in and they're still in business they were very successful construction company they work in Florida but. So when I took the course we did all surveying work well at that time I was probably a sophomore junior and we across the street was Laura's apartment house and so we flipped the.

[00:39:59]
Surveillance on over there and we have the cats there were a lot of airline stewardesses lived in that and so we flipped over and they're playing the piano was a lady a nude Here you what it was Ok so stop work everybody lot though. And each took a piece you know that lasted for about 20 minutes and then she did something else and she had no idea she was doing a show for you right but there were these sort of situations land which helped you grow up you know.

[00:40:30]
Which were after you were good as Frances in your you learned about life whereas you might not in a smaller city become a member of a town that had a college so when you're getting ready to graduate from high school in your head you were not your you were not going away well I was going to sort of Georgia tell an interest in being an engineer and you also didn't want to be right on the campus you want to go back to an experience.

[00:40:55]
Where you sort of taught your mother that wasn't happy about your going away is that when she said. No I think she wanted me to have this theory that well this is I just it was just that I didn't have any brothers or sisters that she could concentrate on and I was the only one 0 I think the problem she was over focused maybe a little bit over focus and that probably she started tell me how you found out about your dad's nickname the contention that well this was this.

[00:41:24]
Lord Boki was the foreman on the job and he was a vice president big time part of the company. And the construction company and and when he interviewed me for the job he says is your father Joseph Howard the Georgia Tech said yes or did not know what suspect he says he flung me in physics.

[00:41:47]
And. Said I test you're going to be smart enough to do surveys for a 3rd. If I do and he was the one that told me about my dad that way Hardpan's how we argue with you know how is how we hard you know he. 20 people in physics was a rather common experience at Georgia Tech I guess that was one of their weeding out tools so I guess so talentless also calculus chemistry and physics were the big.

[00:42:16]
Yeah so your dad was following in a wonderful tradition that's a part of many years before him and probably if some aspiring or taste were known as far as I have to tell you there were those courses he sounds like it but there's a right that was a big fear of architects was calculus so when you went to choose a school bus and you and I imagine in that time this was what you're 50 that you were kind to you were graduating from high school 5150 kids are graduating from high school you wrote off probably to apply for schools Well I was had mixed emotions I didn't really know I want to go to college freely that wouldn't affect Well if you're not or no I was more artistic and you know my what happened well.

[00:43:02]
I was coerced and they're going who wished or because one of my dad's roommates a Yale was Howard Lowry who was present with her colleagues at the time so that somebody to keep an eye on you know yeah so you were coerced not you didn't do this happily you thought what you were Feel going to go to college or had already to be leaving home you know of course was that was familiar to you sort of but it was.

[00:43:29]
The weather was cold out there there were very enthused and. But it was a it was a really good as for us once I got there the class was small maybe a couple 100 Russian you want to roll that as a freshman Yeah but I was going into a liberal arts program the liberal arts which is going to man it was the greatest chance for me sure but I didn't really hear muses and find out you know where your talents lie right not architecture you know but I was artistic but I didn't like the art department there and.

[00:44:01]
I didn't like the cold weather I went out for freshman basketball that was too cold and I remained with the store pass it up being the star basketball player there but how long were you up there 2 years well that's a long time let's talk about that Jay when I went up there in the fall and so you know what I had a great time because I got right into that they had freshman track there so I participated in that and I got in the rowdiest a social club where they did they wouldn't allow for tourney's So we were able to drink and do things that we were supposed to do it approach it was a Presbyterian college you know you're supposed to be very plain like getting away with murder and I love that no I love it.

[00:44:42]
But that a rebellion that time you had but we were the best of everything in sports and you know Merrills forces even the glee club I couldn't saying but they put me on the back road miles so they fill out any part of this now and then we just so so so the part I really think will support a joint you fully fully participated you know you know academically where you challenge at all no I didn't I was more a c. student there because your work challenge your board there yeah right it turned out that maybe you need is a little bit more a little meet your curriculum right nonetheless you state the 1st year and you come home for the summer then you get a job Sure yeah I would have to work that summer that's a good question I worked every summer.

[00:45:30]
It was expected that you would come home and get a job your parents you know still that work ethic Well actually. You know and I honestly can't remember I think maybe I got it in the construction the 2nd summer but the 1st summer I don't know or remember what I did but you remember that you didn't come home for the summer you didn't stay up there you know and that would be the time to touch base with all the other kids who'd gone off to school or high bright Sammy was right there tech he hadn't got always well the 1st year he was still in grade high school because he's looked at you know and then he in a go to Georgia Tech we there is kind of sad we never kept in touch I've kept in touch more with his older sister the family and then he went into education he said I may probably interviewed him already and he has for years at Westminister and it's kind of strange we just never kept in touch which is a great memories from the early days yeah so you come home for the summer and then it's time to go back to school and you went back even because you were having a good time yeah and I well I had so yeah and also I had was social for I had a really good friend we were going to be roommates and then it ended up that.

[00:46:42]
We all ended up in a barracks with the you know those terrible army barracks that they had everywhere after or 2. And so the 1st year we really were in a great dorm with one roommate from Fort Wayne Indiana there was a basketball star for the school I'm really bright guy too I guess that was part of my friends he was so bright he could do his math and 20 minutes it would take me 45 you know so so it was it was not exactly the high point of my academic part although I did all right but because you can't back the 2nd summer got into construction What did you make the decision that maybe work on back the 3rd year well when when the track team up they were still so damn cold and basketball was so glad I didn't you know really stand in a basketball because it was freezing for that I just didn't like the cold weather.

[00:47:37]
So I was ready to leave by Thanksgiving of the 2nd year they had the worst snowstorm that ever had been 5 years but your parents said you'll finish up the year yeah and so when you came back that spring did you enroll at Georgia Tech and if so that's a yes so you started Tech in 152 then 53 I think 52 or 5050 it might have been 52 thinking I was late sister to.

[00:48:02]
Start and then the fall semester we were in quarters that you know what a valuable quarter I guess is a full quarter and did you enroll in architecture right now about I actually I just. I thought about it does real engineering 1st id Ok and then I ran into Bob church he was kind of our ideal because he was he was active in the why we knew we all knew him because some of the one or 2 the young things that Grady High School had dated him but he was a star basketball player and.

[00:48:35]
And I did I really didn't know till later on that he had a full basketball scholarship to Georgia Tech You know and he was not in architecture start with either but we met we had to take a summer course we saw the. You know visually go in architecture and actually tell you want to freshman courses I have to test your legs now and then we just ran into each other on the campus and renewed each other quite well and they were pleased to see each other and we found out we were both going and architecture or I was already in architecture and I and he was I don't remember exactly his so id was under the arc in the College of Architecture industrial design.

[00:49:18]
But he just said I just feel engineering i'm so I just feel engineer by the you're right you really know your facts say that's great that's the industry planning and architecture right Ok yeah so it's his man is an industrial engineer and then that was a gross close had that program relatively new program you know they had already big ones I think 7 you know maybe if at all times now when you came back to tech and enrolled did you enroll as a junior or did you go back and enroll and I got everything transferred so but what status did they give you what you got transferred you know it's a good question you know some of these details I don't remember I was you were in school for quite a few years I know and I just wondered if you know they start you all over again or did they not know what I preferred over so I doubt if everything transfer that would have been a miracle but I could use a lot of yeah no no actually it was very very highly regarded and serious I got to really transfer but you're right I was there for practically 7 years so it seems to me like you were really what but I kind of I didn't know what I wanted to do at 1st yet you're still finding this stuff through the summer 53 is when I met Bob church so so it was.

[00:50:34]
But see I had to take a lot of extra. Are better courses to get called up when you probably had to take a lot of science courses to you Well yeah I guess so I had taken because Tex pretty demanding about that no matter whether you're architecture or not well my f. the.

[00:50:53]
I had a pretty good bit of my ancestry those kinds of things they are going to get John when your dad still teaching Well yes Was he pleased to have you there I think so did you take physics from him No thank God you were spared bad luck at that took it from a tennis coach or Earl boy tell me more tell Shorty.

[00:51:15]
Gregg may I heard that he was a wicked physics teacher because he wrote things down he raced about the same time is that true yes he was I can remember all the football players took it because it was easy for those who were slightly on Hardiman we called him piano lady.

[00:51:31]
And he was in it in a number of other football players well foretell had a soft spot in his heart for athletes yes he did and he was determined Yeah he was determined that they were going to by golly they were going to pass they wanted love so yeah and I think I think is hard hearted as Freddie who knew was he also was known to cut a bit of slack for football players and they were required to take Of course not all of them were the same now what I wanted to ask you when I asked you what your stance was as I wondered if you had to take our o.t.c. to no no way so then you had to have come in past your 2nd year they musta given you 1st as much to come in and most of your metaphor status journey or beginning yeah because otherwise they would have made you take the dead to take over to the 1st 2 years were mandatory how to take a took was elected in high school I took one term and I hated it well I Georgia Tech being a language school it was mandatory for the 1st 2 years not 3rd and 4th year so if you didn't think it over you know where you were you know I saw him yeah you're exempt it's one in 2 then because you are so then I want in as is here is a soldier so I got a full credit for my 1st 2 years then I floundered around for about I say sounds like a very I wasted a year sure when your life got a little more relaxed maybe or whatever you know how how long did it take for you to catch on that this is really what I really really want to do I belong here.

[00:53:03]
It's a good question because edm over it was a good experience we used to solve things he'd done what was it Harris teaching then now he was actually casing he was the he's mostly today like yeah he had his own. Kalman everything I mean I was impressed with that and I do want to the people that work for you Well what about some of the old stalwarts from architecture they were boring to us you didn't like Bush for the 1st Brown was very boring Isaac supporta he was very he was very talkative What was he talking Yeah and I know Laurie whole area loved the way a lot of the go he did that they were very close friends hello.

[00:53:48]
Hello for Larry he was there just for poor of our time because of the Cuban crisis because the whole family was caught over in Cuba. Well this is quite a story Gailey how I mean I hear this kind of boring you know his they were you were you were do you were just tired of all those guys you know I didn't like about Gothic architecture at the time our call have written didn't like him either he is the 1st architect that I've ever talked to that really were crazy about those guys well they were gay he and.

[00:54:19]
You know we were like girls you know we didn't relate to what you Brady was the other one that they live together Brady taught freshman and Brady but they were not ready gave Larry or hell of a time great you had to take credit Heller you had to take Grace course about 3 or 4 time I were.

[00:54:38]
In the hell are proud to tell you this but none of it none of you really were under the influence by them other than you just had to take therefore the well some people were influenced by half and some people love them yeah but when I when I was there they had a lot of young teachers many of them were Harvard granted you remember any of them sure tell me Ok well the one I worked for was James Kennedy just kept that 5 was my was James Kennedy Jim Kennedy who I worked for the 1st one I worked for in Tampa who made a partnership here.

[00:55:12]
I just remember faces I don't remember names and I'm sure he went to Harvard grad but his nickname was Budweiser Bob my friend and I was with the students and was he taught a sophomore course which I did take. Really good teachers Sam Hurst was very good and we all were pulling for Sam to be made head of the department and they made Heffernan head of the architecture the core Sam became head of the department out of the University of California running Southern Cal but he was also when shall I yeah he was very have Sam Hurst he was my advisor.

[00:55:47]
Jim Kennedy Edwards. I had a nickel initials and I don't remember we like him and I remember he told me he was not he was I was not his favorite. Another good friend of mine who's spent most of the time Flora I think he's since passed away. Was his favorite but he told me d.j. told me well it's d.j. would take the best students in this class out when we have a speaker there like he took me when but Mr Fuller spoke you know the engineer architect and so I got to right after the airport with and and and that was for the reward for the best food and well d.j. it was Tony said Howard I have to give you an a because you got the same numerical average as Bill Henderson who was his favorites and Bill Bill was a very talented guy we had a couple international competitions together here in Florida so we went really when you were having those experiences with them is when you really developed a passion for yeah yeah very much I guess time you felt like you were in the right the right time exactly I mean we were course having the art brought Brown and having been exposed to some of those and then also in Boston was a great influence with Marcel Boyer done houses there I didn't actually see.

[00:57:10]
Gropius Walter Gropius was a big major influence I didn't see his house to later on and for us houses on the side of the hill broilers was boys in the shadow of Gropius Big Brother was a designer gropers was administrator the educator and and then also Alf our Alto I saw a curvilinear Bergdahl majority that he did there and then so these things could get you excited yeah and that got me excited subliminally as a student in junior high when we were in Boston I didn't realize at the time yet but that was a big influence so it was the right thing for you to come to talk yes it was I didn't realize it but it was yes.

[00:57:58]
Jay When we think about your time you know you're back home. A couple years going to school now you have a passion now you're really excited about architecture but your question father or mother would have been aware of even though you might not have been sharing that with them you were living on the campus has been a door.

[00:58:18]
How did your dad feel about having you back on the campus how did he convey anything to you about that was he pleased you think yeah I think he was pleased. He was pleased that I was able to transfer all my credits from wish to college and he was patient I guess is the best way to describe He was patient with me and you know that's a wonderful characteristic Yeah and he knew yes he knew that I really had the side of my exact life path to take.

[00:58:53]
But I think he was glad to have me back. In here again I bore the car on the weekends to for dates and things like that if I wanted to I could ride out with him Friday night and borrow the car for maybe a half a day and then bring it back so I would be at home I still had a place at home because I didn't have any brothers or sisters so I had my room but it was basically lived in town.

[00:59:20]
I mean yet but still being in touch with them you said they had they moved off the campus by this time they moved in. You know they had they moved. My freshman year in college when you when was to yell so when you came back home they were someplace different you were not on the campus anymore right correct when you said ride home with them you literally meant when your dad went home from work on Friday night you could go with him and drop him off and then get the car board for maybe half as I did I'm sure you didn't have a car of your own nor the means to get a car right so that was tied to what you do that yeah it was Friday night date night.

[01:00:00]
That generally it was because he did have a. Saturday sometimes Monday was he was a workaholic so a lot of times I go out Saturday and Saturday night because. Because on particular in the fall of football weekends you know you had classes Saturday morning which almost all students did is if you had last labs and things like that.

[01:00:28]
And there would be some wondering and from the party Friday night party they're sleeping well as well other than the instructors were pretty. Lenient about learning to do it because they've been a this big football game and I told them they were going to get but always at 2 o'clock on Saturday right now tell me about how your did your dad caution you about professors to or did he give you any counseling about going to school that tech.

[01:00:57]
He really you know unless I ask him a question. I thought he felt it was my own life and he didn't really want to direct me and and then once I got into architecture he was much more interested in what I was doing because even though he had an interest in architecture he could have been an architect really really I mean in management not not necessarily design but he knew how to put things together he built furniture he was really a talented guy and the way we work together you're my Same here before I went to Georgia Tech we were still billing this house.

[01:01:37]
That they moved into so I got I learned how to light a block and brick and this sort of thing wow what a great yell and so your father now I have this loving patient kind hearted you know good sense of humor Yeah I mean you really you you had a time with a good dad didn't you yeah well he was pretty subtle I mean he was his sense of humor was subtle I mean you didn't know he had but but just from the fact that he was a teetotaller and my mother was a total teetotaller and.

[01:02:07]
Too much of a churchgoer for my way of thinking at. College you saw them as ultra conservative and yeah not cool Yes but now in retrospect you realize how cool it really was well I was really proud of my dad because it was saddest. And churches hated sadness they always do because saddest a right.

[01:02:29]
And it always the that that between your father was very highly regarded by students he was tough but he was kind and he was he was kind of everybody not just that he was benevolent and patient with you but he was a kind heart because students went to him for counseling they went to him you know when they were behind us behind themselves and didn't know which way to go.

[01:02:55]
Hi Hi 1st help for any was very encouraging for students to to do graduate work if they were talented he really encourage them and would find help them find scholarships and things like that which was really unique and he extended himself to you know and really did so he was quite proud that you were back and then you as you were progressing in your in developing your passion for the group then he took a big big interest in architecture and whatever he was the last thing he did was he.

[01:03:29]
Helped with the planning for the new physics building and he took great pleasure in doing that he spent hours on that he was he had stepped down then he could have stayed as then but he had it set up so very in Crawford became dean for short while I recall other sweetie and yet other kind hard job he had a great says that he really he was you know he was very witty and he was.

[01:03:54]
I love him too we spent time with them when you took your architecture classes you were taking them in there also says building weren't you know they had changed they changed over to the new building. By the time you were taking architecture classes yeah you were into the New College of you know this is yeah.

[01:04:14]
53. If you had started with 50 you would have still banned Yeah in the horse I'm glad that's over the states that have and more I don't know there was some remarkable stories from that bill on sure there were so your time really was quite brought that the time that you spent Yeah it really was it was a several years you know you were an old man yeah I was a young I was a career student.

[01:04:44]
I didn't have thought about it but. Did you were you involved in anything else on the campus the last few years when she do which you will return. And when did you pledge maternity. Probably the 2nd year there it had not done that it was a circus they have we have social clubs which were the equivalent of this so it was really as it was Delta Delta top Delta came Adtech after that Ok right so that would be a good social life you know I actually ran for political office one time and I got totally framed.

[01:05:18]
Got creamed. That's a tough thing as a tough thing to do that but that you wanted to do it is pretty interesting well I had run for class president of my high school I was a head candidate in high school and. But I really. Took me quite a while that to really be sure I want to be an architect which is common with with some architects some jump out right away and they take off but there are many that maybe have gotten a full college degree and come back and then do the whole architecture thing it's a big commitment and you really have to want to do it why are you one of those people that stayed up all night Sure of course you did and that's part of the culture of it and then we lived off campus when Bob church and I led our fans we'd work till almost dawn and at the projects done and then stagger in and present on the next morning when you were still a student not a Georgia Tech but a high school and you know you told me that you were a card yeah for at the door doing that for me what is Well what we were we.

[01:06:28]
We were at the gates the intrigue age for the football games and if you to give up we had where you are Scout uniforms and we also are runners you know we do things and then there was one or 2 in the press box which I never got to do but.

[01:06:47]
But we helped the ticket takers we didn't actually take the tickets and then we we were sort of control. I mean we were just kids but to answer to give people directions the right sort of look at the tickets and so with that experience as just the teenager a young teen you know that when you came back as a college man from some stature did you still enjoy going to the game for sure a little sports by that time it was a big part of your life who are your I mean we once all a basketball games you came back to tech at a time when football was very risque I mean 57 that was weighed with so Mitchell was a quarterback in prior to that you know they had won the national championship and it was that when you and I had chatted before about that the great George Morris and some of the other figures that you can remember you just mentioned Lee and Hartman Right there were a whole bunch of them that were really just amazing football Madison was on the news or because he became a medical doctor on top of being a footballer you have the magnificent the Bobby that you know did you ever get to meet back to him sure tell me about him but it just.

[01:08:02]
Very southern He was Southern Yeah a gentleman. We I got to know him because of Henry hair who made 33 all-American Assyria and there Henry we used to play and pay my partner where we were not in Henry's league in football Henry when the brightest guy but he went to a military school and that got him in tech and he was quite an athlete and we knew through him because I think Henry lived next door to dot at one time.

[01:08:34]
And the death was very approachable by the game unity and by the kids yeah I also had a very attractive blonde sister but if you didn't know it was tough and she was sure it was interested in older God or Man Yeah well you were good to be an older man by now well but there we were this is this is when we knew Henry was with high school actually hey I think for you.

[01:08:59]
So but going to be in for a big part of your life all you want all of that and then we were the scouts the scouts were a big part because they were athletically inclined we would be a golf tournaments to help out I remember we tried to get Bob Hope say next year he was kind of nasty really.

[01:09:17]
Well he was tired you know he'd already played 18 holes or 9 holes or whatever he was Ok but so so we so I'd say that tied in with Georgia Tech was a great influence me being a scout and then in the Georgia Tech at a young at a young age it seems to me that all the legendary people who I've learned about it you do well you saw him in the flash just last year or so you were there I mean what is a great opportunity you had you had more Georgia Tech then most people have a lot of people have 345 years had many years exposure even as a youngster I can even recall as a youngster going to my 1st football game when you really my mother.

[01:10:02]
I didn't particularly care for football so what that took me to a few games I can remember one memorable game tech was playing Tulane and telling was not as good as tech but tech player went to block the to land price fell down on the ground with it got up and he had to fly to the ball there was a.

[01:10:23]
Whole set of this course it was formally a football. That's alright and there were some side in games with the Navy I can remember a very close games at Tech one scored 3 touchdowns in the last 3 or 4 minutes to upset Navy and so the sec had quite a reputation so and they were glad to be part of it exactly the academics and scholarship for the 2 big things that tech brought to the plate and really.

[01:10:54]
Carried that with me and I think that was. Make Create a whole person is what. You had such a good in foot from your parents really exposed you so wonderfully to culture and art and everything you know and yet still had you grounded they made you work they made friends and we said off camera a couple times you that you got into mischief now and then right you know gave them fits turn their hair grey a little bit maybe you're so bad but you had a good time that's the whole point good times you know you were learning but you were having a good time you know and finally I mean you got laid out as long as you possibly could right they gave you a degree maybe 2 degrees at roughly 106 months I was happy to finally Gen mile and so very Did you go to your graduation 57.

[01:11:47]
I think I did Ok 66 I'm not sure that the well you know you're going to be there for another year so by 57 you went ahead and was it at the Fox of our nation and the one thing you would have had hanging over your head was a military that's right matter what I mean the military was an obligation it was and we were still subject to the draft at the time and 57 so work at the last minute after graduation I wanted to become part of the Corps of Engineers world tech being the engineering school all slots were taken so the only I was left was a Transportation Corps which wasn't bad because you took basic training.

[01:12:30]
At Fort Jackson and there was an Air Sea experience because that was right after college so. If you want your money 5 years yeah you were 25 years old and 57. And I know you're born in 32 you tell me to soon yeah I guess so. And so so you graduate from college and they take you right away then sure Ok so there was no looking for jobs nothing you had no you know what I want directly and then I had a friend Warren Epstein.

[01:13:02]
A graduate in architecture that was a week ahead of me in basic training and he'd been Force and he got me in quick enough so he was in the Corps of Engineers and here you were in that Ok so then we met every weekend. When we had a little time off and he would tell me what we've put to spec the next week so I got really got out of a lot of things that way.

[01:13:25]
Because you had because of the war and yeah because I was a lad to support I got a driver's license I was able to drive a calf is cheap when we when they went on to work it was for a thing so I guess I've always been a little bit this way inside for sure because I.

[01:13:41]
Look for shortcuts to get there and when you say when you were called in to this if it was for a commitment of 6 months you said well this is 6 years in the reserves but 6 months to start up active duty now and that was your plan 6 months and that was my plan and you went to Fort Jackson got training with your basic training and all that kind of stuff and then what happened well then it was over in a hurry wasn't well but there was 6 weeks so then then I ended up in Virginia and we took course all his courses for the rest of the term but didn't know what the with the state as it was a We shall we say a place or of military help yeah that was a lot right there in the fifty's yeah right and then then the Berlin co-opting war and then when the Russians were you know still yeah was still ahead now and then what were they going to do with you know well I was in California at that time I was thinking about moving to California spent time in Florida and so I went out there and I fail to tell.

[01:14:43]
Reserve maybe. I know what made you very vulnerable again and I was dating a young thing at that fat I found out they were gotten pretty serious but then I found out she was engaged to Nansen who was in the Navy who was supporting our 1st the scope of so but I had done a little work out there for 4 on my own some architectural design for a psychiatrist out there through my twister friends who were out there and then I pretty much decided I was going to stay there but then the general delivery comes this notices I'm cold kids so I run through Florida and Bill Harwood gave me a job I'm a laid back and so I start where I did tell him about this they're everything one sure how to handle it and then.

[01:15:37]
I got a notice to take a physical. Before before I was they were going to take me back sort of tell Mr Harper then about my problem and he said well I know a chairlift for MacPherson I'm going to call him up and see what we can work out for you he's trying to help me get out and so the general had me take a physical at MacDill Air Force Base but I had kidney stones which the Air Force lent me on softly Pena's And so for about 2 months I was out of it and then I suddenly realize that the kidney stones disqualified don't disqualify me if you go in the service so then I spent 6 months in the heart of New Orleans.

[01:16:18]
You know they did take you back you know as what what were you well I think Brianna transportation with there were 50 of us in a black stevedore company and I mean really got attached to the Corps of Engineers because of my background so just because you went to Georgia Tech you had a corps of engineers that nation well because I was an architect.

[01:16:38]
I had nothing to do with Georgia Tech I'm not really well they probably knew that I'd gone to Georgia Tech but that so that I was able to go every day to the coroner golems and be with the Corps of Engineers from a b. so that wasn't so bad but to enjoy that you know I was a lot of fun with it because we were the last 3 there were 21 has.

[01:17:01]
Had this big prison even for a string quarterback at f.s.u. he got called in for not attending meetings and then Jim Green from like when he was going to both the floor and Fs here and because we couldn't they couldn't accommodate us we got an apartment near the French Quarter that's right if you yeah all 3 of you bad boy it was a disaster I got it well but because Victor played football for the.

[01:17:30]
Army team there when we went to Mardi Gras we didn't show up for 3 or 4 days afterwards. So you know how to celebrate Mardi Gras or the good. New Orleans love that I was I had like the rest of my family that was yours but the the day rate we got back in the good graces so we use.

[01:17:51]
The boat we had a great time there and there was a good experience and I worked briefly for an architect there on indoor life and you know Kirsten Davis there was a graduate that I don't like if connections so you know when they give you a job it's like we're going to around and yeah so now when you were out you didn't stay you didn't go back to California you didn't stay in New Orleans where did well I decided.

[01:18:14]
That time I had I had my registration in Florida so I went back to work for free harbor for a while and then away with that in St Petersburg Florida Tampa Bay was just about half an hour drive 20 minute drive from here to downtown St Petersburg and and so you were officially a practicing architect back that point.

[01:18:38]
Had you already performed enough hours of of service to get your accreditation and everything that you needed and yeah we were very fortunate because you only this is what I cut out for my 7 years of college you only need one year's a spears and for every other state with 3 years yeah that was 3 it was a fluke so see I picked up 2 years and I got registered right away wow and I could not get a national registration because I frowned on Florida if you couldn't do it that quickly retard but you got away with that yeah so so I got a little bit of a catch up there but and that's what I have fun you need to have fun along with you did your best everything.

[01:19:22]
And so you stay then there were a series of small companies that you associated with you do a few jobs on what you want a year long tour we did when we when I started out in my firm we did some school board work and you didn't start your farm until 965 Yeah well I did that period of time when you got out of the military there was with her 1st with her with Harvard jollier to become a larger company now you French and several other little small for a dream beach to work for.

[01:19:57]
And kept in contact with him and. By that time Jim Kennedy had left Smith and wanted to work with Mark. Mark probably said there was one case where a Didn't really work for me with I did work for one but. He was getting ready to move to Miami and so in part of it was not full time part of it wasn't part of one so yeah that was really my last name gloire I guess when you moved here to this area to take up work where were your parents living well at that time they were still Atlanta and and it was like I was married 68 never been married before like that but they mention that because I want to know when i'm sorry i'm not feeling and completely and form a lot of 64 and you're going to start your own company is that we're not married no you're pretty eligible material I love that I regret I was day a blow up date a lot of lawns of law an airline stewardess before Maria before I met Maria how did you meet were you on a blind date how about that's interesting my friend yes it was I was this she thought I was a 2nd choice and felt sore for.

[01:21:16]
This year I should but actually I was the 1st choice but it depended on the tux they had a Peter Duchin dance here for the Junior League already it was her sister was a junior lay in our system brother while we're on it we go she was living with them she was divorced and had 2 young children and so.

[01:21:37]
So I went to that but 1st time when they really got to talk so I said no I can't go. And I don't believe in taking him out to dinner on blind dates and they were going to go to burns which is a very specified you don't know if you have your ethics.

[01:21:52]
There was there my code at the time so my friend said hey I'm gonna need to talk she can have it after all so then I got back in to take your son met him after they'd been to Burns and I used to go but not sergeant or.

[01:22:07]
Hero I thought I was never a wonder that he'd even consider going out with us she felt sorry for her because I was a 2nd choice she thought but never told or tell years later. So I saw at that point. Were you a good dancer just terrible the ass or was the photo right about the days before this.

[01:22:29]
She'd been divorced it ordered some but she was gorgeous so so I had a 2nd date with her so didn't we just got along better and we were with a group of architects is she was she was an interior designer and she really had she knew that it was she was she actually was in Home Economics but they didn't have an interior design department at the University of our Which was where she went and but she was working for an interior designer here yes in Tampa living with her brother and sister No How long was she calls her partner how long did you court her very short her father was murdered your 3rd day yeah but we had really hit it off the 3rd day he had to grocery stores and Mason City Iowa and.

[01:23:20]
And it was just sudden you know and so she left a message and I wrote a couple letters because by this point I was very interested and and then when she came back. When she walked out there planning I was going to marry. Me it was magic never mind I'm ready Yeah so you had to talk her into it that now she was right she said.

[01:23:45]
I was fine. That's really I mean you need each other then so yeah that's right so yeah so you didn't court for a whole long long time no matter how much. She was so worried. When we drove out to the land to meet my parents well not going to let me I'm a Greek you know the sort of thing.

[01:24:06]
And what did you think your parents were going to think I had no idea I could care less you were too old to be worrying about something like Yeah right I mean my mother would be so happy that I could take a black black person and there she be have to see if what you're telling me was that she was desperate for you to.

[01:24:25]
Think they were relieved when you finally got your act together in college and so by God you get married and that's a good thing you know so it enrages you have to hurl 2 little children to raise them well raise them on the other one had cerebral palsy and they had just placed her in Sunland him and son the 2 said she had 2 sons place him in Sunland center and and then.

[01:24:49]
Her real father or his real father remarried. When he was a teacher in special education and then they took him which really worked out I mean we help support him but that was a great solution and that will help as far as my brother being asked in a manner because I don't think I could handle that situation for I could have for a while but when you went up to visit your parents did you take the little boy with you know we just went together that you were getting and instead of family so that could be nice too for your Mom Well you know what she loved she handled it well that just she received the status just like talk right to Maria Yeah exactly but then you moved back here to you came back home because I had offices.

[01:25:33]
And how long before your parents came down here will probably a couple of months maybe 4 to 6 months and put the house on the market and move so they could because Yeah right because I had no brothers or sisters. So that we just need to I had asked you earlier how long your father lived till 74 so he you were a business for 10 years you're married yet there was almost 19 years it's like with you so he really must have been very proud of you and taken a great comfort in all of that well I think so that's a nice feeling for you your mother lived a lot longer you know lone years there were some of the family was.

[01:26:15]
Her sister her sister lived till she was 92 in California and to do it in your Mother's Day credit is the area where you were where you once you build your practice once you opened your John Howie architect. You never moved away any more you stayed right here in Tampa I know but if I had a job in Miami you know I was applying for a job for a y.m.c.a. director that was there or basketball coach was down there and he had some architectural work to give out so he called me up and I went down there he liked me and we got along and so I did work in Miami actually I've done work over none in Georgia unusual but particularly North Carolina Florida always allergies of done probably 50 residences not all of them Bill and what's your favorite kind of assignment.

[01:27:12]
The really challenging project something really interesting it doesn't have to be the largest but it just has to have an opportunity that we could really do something interesting for the class and satisfy the class needs you did use the word opportunity. To prop to solve a problem sure that's what you like to do the end of yourself about it is an interesting site which Florida has a lot of very challenging sites and challenging sites yeah.

[01:27:43]
The I guess the challenge the next the next projects always the best one of the so if somebody comes to the door and they've got something that involves a lot of. Great matter you're going to have to really think through the situation in order to satisfy the client and still create That's the kind of job you want to see come through the door that's what you get excited about sure we don't do the.

[01:28:08]
County high schools or we do colleges we've done and just things on youngsters you've been you've been doing a lot of I don't have a lot but you've been you're interested in renovations preservation renovation just because the situation availed itself. Isn't And because in in the case of this bill it was in a sense that he was dirt cheap to get it was in a for a time when it was going to grow but there wasn't this much around it then and 1980 when we purchased it and my thought there was an old wood train station across the street there Sharon tracks around then a sad that we just saw the potential and I had tried to buy one of the smaller ones for a banker bankers laughed at me 1st because I looked so young and I couldn't really you couldn't feel never enough credits Yeah.

[01:29:03]
But but people my age like attorneys and I had some great clients in that group there the word of mouth help you when you say very much so the thing that really helped was I got a great newspaper paper pleb Asli for what for for my projects. As a person that was very visible project Yeah and they they they ran almost all of the didn't have to do a lot of.

[01:29:27]
Marketing like you do now and I'm not as good at marketing as I was on the day because they were did great drawings great photos of the projects and. Almost every Sunday they either paper in Tampa St Petersburg with feature architecture it's not like men I know they feature realtors and builders because they pay for advertising or to still in pay for aspects of this kind of sad but that's the way you build up your reputation Yeah exactly and then we want to lot of architectural wars we've won over 50 wars anonymous over the years as various times how many people do you have working as the last I had was 17 and I hated it.

[01:30:10]
That's that's personnel issues then you know and I didn't like the source of what I was looking for yeah smaller the better right yeah then you can you can and he can always grow and have another unit with you to to do a particular project and you still keep control of it but yet you've got your core smaller office yes so that's the way we practice since the 1st is France where we had to go up to 17 to get a really large project out which we got out on time and everything then it didn't build really there was an area for it was an Air Force Yeah it was an Air Force project they did 12 all around the country and it was a great project there was.

[01:30:49]
Air Force housing you know family houses but you got paid for even if you're right they made the most money we ever made awards and because we're I can understand things like that I think yeah I'm not you know the commoners point of view who doesn't understand is that why would they pay for something they were going to do well it was there were $12.00 projects of the United States and we got one up here and at MacDill Air Force Base which is Centcom now for you is the headquarters to run Iraq and.

[01:31:19]
And I did a number of other projects out there we've done all different types and enjoyed their residences because they're a quick turnaround generally a large one it's no longer you've had you've written several books to write and I've had approach looking if your home and in particular can refer to the one that they put in a pocket full of houses books from Australia this marvelous amazing fairy right looking House frankly Well I think it's more really good design Well if you need it's a unique design and people associate right with you know when it's design Yeah and so then they associate Well yes look at you say that's got to be someplace you know it is my wife was really impressed she wanted me to buy it when it was for sale as who said Tone and so Bianca do another one for you when I go buy that one you know.

[01:32:12]
Is it fair to ask an architect What's your favorite project or your next or the next one I knew you were going to say. But you go down the street and see something you didn't get some satisfaction that usually is very popular they might like to tweak that or I wish I had done worse retire than to do it over generally once or twice I feel that way about exhibit specify I have to ask you about the architect if it's a lot easier to redo an exhibit then it should or I don't think so.

[01:32:42]
We've used behind you the model of this high rise really right tower thing that I think you tell me that has not been don't yeah yeah yeah have you built any commercial buildings that are very visible. You know Pappas Russia apartments friends all those now but the grandchildren were going and the smaller shopping center type Pappas things where you get sandwiches and but you still have been as and they're very successful at that this see this rush of sea is 800 people and it was known around the country I guess because I wonder how that makes you feel if something becomes.

[01:33:22]
Vulnerable to being torn down or you know well I feel badly if I know it's going to be torn down but that nobody has taken this one down yet so hopes up that they're not anything taken down or you know what point to happen yes several residences right away because the problem is if it's a really nice piece of property the early residences we did were much smaller and they tear him down from 8 mansions down from I mean it's a terrible strain problem here in Florida with really ugly.

[01:33:53]
Trails. And inappropriate inappropriate to the rest of the neighborhood Itzhak and when it's a big problem in our area too we hear about that they stick out like a sore thumb you know nobody really wants that was next door of a house like that right you know and you just are done and speculation by a builder that's true you know not because somebody contracted to have it done there but they just wait for the chap to come along and right and buy it.

[01:34:20]
And it's really a builder's market right now particularly the smaller in red eyes techs nightmare it really is this is a major problem. So we just have to do a better job of getting out there and. Showing people what we can do over me when we were talking earlier you said you didn't think this was the age of architecture particularly not on the United States it is in Europe and Asia and you've traveled quite a bit to to know that you've been and it's like travel I'd love to travel with you now you mentioned that you travel to Grace several times because Maria's from Greece right but you don't like classic architecture do you know why well though I thought all through I thought you saw I mean I saw a thing that's from a source that's original if it's really good I love it.

[01:35:09]
That's a misunderstanding. That's been created I like anything that was done of its time. Ok magic or I'm it's time of it's time you know like the revival stuff some of the terrible most of it's terrible Yeah and I say let's it was done close to the time of the original so that the people that come along and want to put in something that's pretentious because it doesn't fit in this environment that's what you're saying is a bad taste Well 1st of all they don't understand the environment that.

[01:35:46]
And 2nd of all. The materials are inappropriate for the climate and you've got such a wide choice of materials from internationally from the whole world to pick from so you can be very careful what you use there to be of its time and. That was where Wright was so interesting because he invented a lot of materials or people in his office did.

[01:36:13]
Like the. The little textile block houses in California. Which are. Whole group after and I don't mean to digress on right here but he's a good example of what a really good architect does let's be at that what. He did he'd been in Japan and then the Imperial Hotel over there had been a big success and he came to back to California really penniless because he was a big spender right and.

[01:36:43]
Actually a son Lloyd Wright was there so he stopped I just read a book I had found on that time period when right didn't have much work well he. Had one of his people had come up with the side of it like a concrete block it set it was a racist sophisticated concrete block and so they built a number of small houses in California and I don't think that that's where that happened and that was a period of that and he actually carry that over into the late 1930 s. with the Florida Southern College which is.

[01:37:17]
One of its most known projects right here yeah where they actually use a Florida Santa to make the blocks to manufacture that innovation dish and well you know they should is architect Yeah that's exactly what it you know we didn't talk about the fact that your father was actually an inventor No we didn't and this makes when you say innovation I always think of innovation invention so let's the graph Now back to him Good father was an inventor Yes he was the early on for get here Robert come in Akron Ohio and.

[01:37:53]
Invented. A belt that you use on cars or airplanes small airplane and that's on a belt was just a solid Belt Well he came up with the idea of putting Bruce spaced equally so that it would grip better so. Grab the pulley or whatever it was running over so they did a more efficient job and and good good good here patented it and so it's not not in the tire itself but in it's in the it's in the.

[01:38:27]
Belt for want of a better word the the belt goes around the alternator or the in a call so Ok so I don't have the right hand of. The l.c.c. on any car motor. And you see some of that have these guys that they're articulated so that they grip better as they are and that was his creation his eye yeah right that's the 1st known one that I know that he did what did he putz around with other things Sure all the tinkerer that yeah he had he had a lot of equipment there woodworking equipment and in our garage and then in the basement other things physics building the l. physics build He had a complete shop did he really and he used the shop to set up laboratory experiments with his excuse but he was passing around on I thought I mean he had metal lathe they had band saws they had.

[01:39:22]
Just everything that he is a complete shop down there and did he make furniture and yes he made some he was. Good at it. Well my uncle's was is better but let father was competent well he was quite a grinder if he worked as a whistle behind me at the what job you know I don't know that he did but as you know Heidi was a real craftsman yet he was going to be right there at the same time they must've known each other I'm sure that it was sure that you know maybe sharing stories I like that I like to make them.

[01:39:54]
Real people by imagining them having relationships with each other and maybe I maybe maybe your dad was well taking something to say well look at how I did this and no how would you might have those corners and getting coach from a real word or another yes another my dad did the sort of thing I had a ear infection and had to have an operation when I was probably 4 or 5 years old and the doctor Dr Equant was became well known doctor in the southeast because he talked to my daddy says I need some magnets that we can put on a string and drop down a baby's mouth to swallow the safety thing so my dad you know had the shot and.

[01:40:36]
Bailed out magnets of the right size and then the doctor when it was a success is a savvy enters I probably for 10 years he worked with Dr a quintile the telly got commercially available devices to do the same thing and. Dr a from Kent became very famous if somebody had a metal obstruction in the stomach to say here's your cameras I want to go to to to get it out see you know you talk about little known facts about Joe's of how we write these are little known facts Well it's this is personal no it's his 1st person I'm just trying to think of him down in the basement of the physics building with his lab yeah how many students he must've motivated inspired mentor you know how long he made a difference in a lot of people's lives you know certainly in yours Well I think so and one.

[01:41:30]
Stayed in the same age as my Charlie and also and I forgot the last name but he's quite well known he was a physics major and but Charlie was your safety. But Charlie is very active in the Physics Society and all that part of it. Here is that with a dad with a visiting fireman attack it Charlie told me the story he lives here in Tampa and said the Mrs Charlie touched and touching was last night I said.

[01:42:01]
To the visiting fireman and he said and Charlie what part of physics are you going to be 1st Charlie should say Hang on Dad said he's going to be in the commercial side of. You I think is with i.b.m. 3 years ago so your dad could see that it didn't go that a lot of confidence yeah yeah I did the video in a nice way and then you remembered in that way and really respecting the wonderful but tell me about your family well your immediate family Ok my immediate family.

[01:42:31]
Is Still I'm a late bloomer and my wife had. One son that lived with her 1st name is John John and then we had a daughter Dorothy you and she had a dog we had a daughter together because that was my 1st marriage and her 2nd and then.

[01:42:52]
They grew up they went to her house to tell me 1st about John because he was the older right Ok but what does he do for a living well he became a Marine. Career Yep it's his real father had was a Marine for a year or 2 and then with the in Congress was an aide to one of the senators up there from Illinois but at any rate John.

[01:43:17]
I think that influenced them but I could not get John to get us to the Boy Scouts which it was like would have been natural I would like to do it but then I got asked in airplanes so I went in the Civil Air Patrol and won every war the head was their patrol so they said he's in the right direction if he's still in the area so yes he's about to retire but.

[01:43:42]
During this time he. In college he was a Marie riddle which is an Aeronautical University. In his junior year he just got the Saracens school which I could relate to because I had a similar problem and so I dropped out well. After being a busboy and a security guard he decided.

[01:44:07]
To join the Marines as an enlisted man. Partly a father's influence and and then served there and at the end of that he applied for office candidate school which Marines like officers that come from enlisted ranks and was you know made that a good career and say you know in these major right now so he turned out well and he married have children yes he's married how many children and he has 2 children we have 2 grandsons rich and Benjamin and how they are they are they the children are basically you know the bench was for he was like there's little ones you know here's a light I'm just ordinary Ridgeview with your grandchildren so we've got a piece yeah yeah yeah tell me about Dorothy what Dorothy.

[01:44:56]
Had really started out to curious is she's both children seem to follow same path that I did and she. Was doing well did well in high school and went to fs year and then join a sorority and her social life took prominence over the academic part so then she isn't going to change back to junior college so they got back and made all A's and went into nursing everybody has their own time in their own house so I guess maybe it's maybe it's in the genes I don't know but she's been a practicing your so yes she is right now.

[01:45:32]
In her. My son in law's pharmacist and he's doing very well he's does that part time and then also. Stop with a pill company per se but they do studies and he travels the country a good bit. And they have 2 children they have a daughter granddaughter Natalie and a grandson Charlie and I was a teenager.

[01:45:59]
Here you had 6 and 4. All of your grandchildren are still babies that we love and the boys they keep you young don't think I think I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to talk to me about the man to Haleigh I thought about that project Tell me how you got that contract well in growing up and this is part of.

[01:46:22]
Dating and again to know people my best friend and I were introduced each other a nursery school and we all went to a public here with right repro hair and that's so how we really got to our each other's attention and so we were in the same classes at his same pace and Kennedy pace and yeah and Scottish I'm half Scottish too so maybe that's a little bit of a relationship there but so.

[01:46:56]
So he ended up going to Emory we were both in Boy Scouts he didn't do as well as scouts as I did. And we were all kind of surprised but he really took an interest in the outdoors and became president of the Georgia canoe society while he was at Georgia Tech and then in under Dorothy cross lying in the library group and then another friend who actually graduated from Georgia Tech whose name I can't give you.

[01:47:25]
Was very interested in whitewater rafting and they were just developing fiberglass. Car cafe the term now fiberglass boats is gone yeah but there are the returns you're going to have to access out of it but I will not that's Ok. I think I was just a 2nd there one man and I can be 2 guys back yeah kayaks and kayaks is another word for victory but a kayak is a good word because they see what they did really think they were all doing this like you were down here being an architect right and in 72 Olympics.

[01:48:06]
Certified Whitewater as a an electric sport so at that point. They had moved to North Carolina and I'm going to assume somewhere near the Nantahala right where the Appalachian cross trail crosses Amanda Haleigh and. At that point they rented the facility right there where the Appalachian trail crosses the Nana Hill river it's a it's a great river for starting out quite well yeah yeah and so they hired a couple of Olympic hopefuls as guides and it grew to 30400 gods in the summer from May to September to Labor Day and they do about 200000 people a year going through there very very successful.

[01:48:53]
And how did you get the jobs of these guys well because of all relationships so what did they say hey John we've got a week that we you know well I was guy was coming out there enjoy it with the kids and my wife and and they said we need to build something that I'm your man you know so so I did the referendum facility and then we did a number of cottages with they built some that were similar We did a total site plan to be a parasite and and then a number of other things like shelters for people on the trail for hikers housing which is a huge package that yeah was it was fun it was well.

[01:49:34]
The most fun probably to do yet my suspicion and I must of been and. A good bit of it was built. But in a still used opportunity very much so we all know that and then I had fun doing the house I got a model and here I'll show you the house that we did for patient his wife then it isn't on the property Yeah well it's right next to the property right next to it adjacent it's really it's really part of it that's a waterfall on one side wow gone in front of it so it's it was a goal that I had been one of your favorite profit even though you try to say you don't have a favorite.

[01:50:10]
I've got a lot of favorites probable stretch there Ok but I would still get excited about the next one that comes to the door right right the next project is the best one. Your mom lives quite a few years after your dad right you kept an eye on her here right to have a chance no grandchildren sure she got to know the store he's named after her yes that one that must have been a wonderful gift you gave your mom yes she was quite a person and we really loved her a great deal and she was.

[01:50:44]
She was very helpful in. Prague not business progressing and actually purchasing this building she got involved in that and because you see my 3rd partner we ran out of money so I had to give her a great deal of pleasure I think for she was happy yes she she really was and really.

[01:51:06]
From being. Very. Tough parent when I was growing up in a sense i wanted me to see food and she really was a partner in helping me succeed later on it takes a little bit of time and wisdom to look back and realize what a god in Fort Jackson was if your dad was that laid back and congenial or that you did need to have somebody be it's hard to do all but it was actually quite driven field but not with you he was very patient and let go of yeah he so he did act if you needed someone to kind of reign you in along the way didn't ship for sure your mom like that role well very well you know.

[01:51:48]
It was he was a teetotaler that bothers me that bothered you a lot of her Well it bothered her more bombings. So it was a great story you know there's only one type person I didn't ask you anything about it all and I'm sure you had to have known that was good old George Harrison good old George was a say whatever he was everybody's friend yeah and he was.

[01:52:15]
Nobody felt comfortable around George just could be made to feel at ease to start out with and it was interesting because he I got to know a lot of all the faculty there Georgia Tech. And the air action between the families and the husbands and wives and. George's wife was she was a to see me Jeannie she was.

[01:52:41]
Who she nothing for face her about George you know she just took it in stride I had her children or grandchildren tell me she had the patience of the holy angels she was just saying that I'm not George you know I just. Did her driving ability was somewhat of some question and later years well George's was his question.

[01:53:04]
Hers was almost worse that's pretty scary isn't it but like you say Ok so a lot of young people were really kind of had to look out for me you know and maybe accompany them sometimes you know to be sure they got home but that's what's so absent minded you never paid attention to where it was much less where he was going I know I heard so many stories about you know how lucky you were to have known him you know and as a student to see how he handled sticky situations.

[01:53:34]
Particularly with several fraternities that should have been you must challenge. Kicked off campus if he knew how to handle and maybe they had to go on probation but they were stayed on campus they never were kicked off campus I've heard so often was sometimes you kick students off or yeah teachers that money to take care of and also they were sure to be able to get some me when they were kind of banned from the premises because they disobey outrageous Sure enough it seems like nothing surprised him no as he would have had been exposed to everything when me over the desk.

[01:54:09]
Something that I will mention here I'm wondering if some of the other old jeans that were before his. Time had that same row to hoe to speak you know Well Professor Smith was quite a he had a club foot here yes he was we love Professor Smith I took a math course and he was the best teacher I had to take 1st for explaining I got that repeated he also took football players under his wing when we knew that that's one reason we took the course because that was a good deal.

[01:54:41]
The same thing as a physics course that I had to take and I made sure it was where the players took a side where the you had the other side advantage there that the regular rookie coming on board the campus would know that this is true so but he just was he was amazing with the.

[01:55:00]
Any student whether it's a. Football player or another one I think said that the Georgia Tech folks were just so fortunate to have the dean Griffen and the g.m. Smith and Joseph power ease. And you know and the other one you know that we can't you know see everybody's name but there are so many over the year over the years and I don't know if every college has those unique legendary people but we sure did have met Georgia Tech with a fight in some cases they do I know it because I have several My best architect friends went to Yale the same time and you know and you know we tell ourselves that like George Best was just so unique you know he's Mr Georgia Tech he was there for 70 years rather than to say what kind of a record is that how you know that's great there.

[01:55:51]
And then and your I know your dad was there 30 some years yeah right who would have thought when he took that job just because he needed a job so bad that he would end up staying for so very long well he because he actually set up the programs that the master's program and I think the doctor program once was somebody else although he helped get it started.

[01:56:15]
But then we've got people like John Heisman has been trophy that was a Georgia Tech football coach with a great history don't we I think so I would. Venture to say that you don't regret that you ended up well I had my 2nd thoughts when I 1st started there is but then I started to meet people like Robert church I told you about this is a very good architect that we were the same class together.

[01:56:40]
And others that you really you know you went to the right places much to be proud of right much of pride and I thank you so much for taking time today not only to tell us your story but your dad story too there are interwoven from beginning to end and you're so much a part of what he was well I'm proud to have been pleased that and thank you so much for all of your time we really really appreciate it you're welcome.