You know all that mess

right now.

But yes you're right.

We love

this story.

It was like

OK thank you.

So I work in the era of combustion so

combustion you know and
it very simply is burning stuff.

OK.

And.

Specific And what I want to talk about
today is assuming you have a power

generation cycle that you want to
limit the C O two generation from and

it involves a combustor What is that what
are the implications that has on the on

the combustor about what how does
that how does that impinge or crimp.

Has the ability of
the combustor to operate.

You know basically what are the new
challenges that that place is now.

Many of you may not be familiar with
the whole area of combustion you might

realize that combustion is an area
that you can study and get.

Ph D. in fact I didn't I didn't know
that until I came to graduate school

that there was actually people
working on combustion as a.

You know a.

Is a field of study.

You know I've always like to make
fire I'm sure many of you may

share that primordial desire.

I've I've made fires my whole life when
I had a really neat job opportunity.

Through college where I worked for
the United States Forest Service

in the Pacific Northwest
in Alaska fighting fires.

And to I always thought that
was a summer job I never knew

that would turn into a career of
making fire and studying it but so

I know it's a fun job and
it's very interesting.

And I thought it would give you a little
bit of perspective on combustion research

and the main thing is that you know

combustion as a as a methodology for
energy conversion is ubiquitous.

You know if you think about transportation
you know you're your car a truck.

You know by and large these devices use
internal combustion engines whether

it's a diesel or or a gasoline engine.

Which which ultimately relies on
the burning of of some fuel to release

heat and even if we start looking at
a electrified transportation sector.

Alternately the source of energy
is going to come from power.

So you know and
also if we look at power generation.

The majority of power generation the
United States in the significant majority

of power generation in the world comes
from the combustion of natural gas or

some sort of oil or some coal.

You know and then if we look
at energy intensive industrial

processes sort of the the backbone of U.S.
manufacturing and

world manufacturing you know starting with
very energy intensive of processes like

glass making aluminum making steel making
you know combustion is very important and

also just a whole host of
other of other things.

And then finally.

Just moving into domestic applications.

If you have a water heater in your home.

It's more than likely.

Relies on a flame fueled by natural gas or

a heater which will be
turning on this winter.

Many of those rely on combustion or

even instant water heaters which
you might have in the kitchen.

Those oftentimes are lying combustion.

And so advanced combustion remains
a very very vibrant research area.

For because primarily because of
the it's primarily regulatory driven

the need to continue generating low
low cost reliable power energy.

But yet with substantially reduced
emissions of particulates or

so or nitric oxide which make acid rain or
carbon dioxide or

even what we're going to talk about
today which is carbon dioxide.

So.

Just a that was just a little
context on combustion in general

through this lighting here many of you may
not know that Georgia Tech has a major

combustion activity we actually have the
largest university group in the country

doing combustion for transportation and

power generation there's about eighty
people in all working on this.

Where we focus on clean energy for
power generation and propulsion.

OK All right let's.

That's a background let's
start by talking about.

What's the role of the combustor
within the larger energy system.

Let's just let's think
about a gas turbine.

The reason I want to focus on gas
turbines here is that if you look in

the United States almost all new power
generation capacity over the last ten

to fifteen years has been natural gas
fired combined cycle power plants.

So if we look at a gas turbine
that uses a brain cycle.

That's a steady flowing brain cycle.

And this is an equation.

For the thermal efficiency efficiency
with which the heat energy.

When the fuel is converted
into useful work or or power.

And it's basically a function of
the compressor pressure ratio and

gamma which is the ratio
of specific heats and.

What you can see here is that you
might it might not be immediately

obvious where the combustor fits into this

this very important parameter
of the overall cycle efficiency.

And that's because it doesn't.

The combustor has little effect on
these very macro parameters like cycle

efficiency how much it costs to generate
or how much fuel it takes to generate.

Overall.

Kilowatts rather this is largely
driven by the cycle the larger cycle

the combustor is basically a black box
within this larger cycle you know whether

you're talking on a simple
cycle power plant or

a combined cycle power plant depends on
the pressure overall pressure ratio of

the device with the firing temperature
of the devices and so forth.

So you might ask yourself OK So

why is where where does
combustion become important.

So this slide basically outlines
the key performance metrics which

this energy system would require of
the combustor you know sort of a I guess

the key ground level requirement is that
whatever you're the combust has got to be

able to burn your fuel if your
fuel doesn't burn nothing works.

And so really the key metrics which
are combustor has to satisfy is I would

group into four categories operability
just the ability to operate the system.

Emissions fuel flexibility in turn down so
we can just tick through these and

just walk through these operability for
example important to blow out

a these devices in order for them to
be have a have a small footprint but

still generate a lot of power have had a
very very significant power densities and

so the flow velocities through
a modern energy device might be.

Eighty meters per second or
two hundred fifty feet per second.

Now imagine going out in a hurricane and
trying to hold a match and not having

the flame just blow off so it's a very
significant challenge in particular.

Lee as we.

Look toward low C O two cycles or

low knock cycles these devices
are oftentimes operating right on

the edge of where the flame wants to
wants to exist so blowouts a big concern.

In order to push lies this a little
bit just think about the next time

you're on an airplane.

Everything I said about a combustor
on the previous slide would apply to

the combustor inside an aircraft engine.

You know the ability of.

You know if you want to figure out how
far an airplane can go on a given tank of

gasoline.

You know the combustor doesn't
enter the calculation.

Until the combustor blows
at thirty thousand feet and

have no flame then it really
becomes a personal interest to you.

Especially if the pilot can't rewrite and
this does happen by the way.

You fly through a big rain cloud you
know all that water gets ingested

sometimes flames do blow out.

And so this is a big operability issue.

Another one would be combustion
instability I'll talk about

that a little bit.

Turns out that these are these are
vibrations in the combustion chamber it's

one of the most significant
issues encountered with

with high power density
combustion devices.

So again.

And what basically happens when you have
these vibrations is that causes parts

to break.

And you get hot and if you think
about of the combustor is the.

In any gas turbine that is the most severe

operational regime in the system it's
the highest pressure highest temperature.

So you know.

Undue stress can cause things to crack and
break in and

go downstream and cost catastrophic
destruction so overall der ability and

reliability of everything downstream the
combustor critically depends upon on that.

Then you have then you have I
will go into all these issues.

Emissions is a key high level driver.

I'll talk about that a little later
feel flexibility is important.

As natural gas prices have
gotten increasingly volatile.

Power Plant operators want to be able to
be able to use the lowest cost fuel and

so sometimes that's natural gas.

Sometimes it might be fuel oil.

If we look toward the future.

This might be.

A gas a FIDE bio fuel or
a gasified coal feedstock and

so the the that the fuel composition.

The ability of the system to
operate over a wide range of fuel

compositions is really important and

lastly turn down the ability of the system
to not only operate at one power level but

over a whole range of power levels so
again if we think about the aircraft

example you want the engine to work not
only at full power but also at idle.

And at half power because
you need the whole thing.

And as well as all talk about.

As we start looking at some of these low
C O two cycles it really has important

implications in all of these and
if you don't meet these requirements.

Nothing nothing happens you
know you're dead in the water.

So what I would just I want to
show you two case studies to show

you how this stuff has been very very
important over the last fifteen years.

Not for C O two emissions but
for Knox emissions.

Since the passage of the Clean Air Act.

The nitric oxide emissions and
C O emissions have been regulated and

this is caused a very significant paradigm
change in the way that combustor does

are designed and this is caused lots of
problems and issues lots of problems and

issues which are directly motivating
a lot of the research that we do and

in our lab and
the same types of problems and

issues will be even more exacerbated
with some of the C O C O two cycles.

So I talked about operability I'll
give you a couple examples for

LHO Knox technology.

This right here is a bore
scope of the turbine.

So this is the rotating piece of equipment
downstream of the combustor in a heavy

frame gas turbine this is a multi hundred
million dollar piece of equipment.

And this is the most
expensive piece of it.

It's the part that has to take
the high temperature gas and spin it.

Tens of thousand R.P.M.'s per second and

basically what happened here
was this come this come.

In this system it had an A.

Combustion instability which caused
a crack to grow in propagate

a piece flew downstream it
sheared off three blade and

this is about a fifteen
million dollars failure.

And in fact if you look
at across the whole fleet

of installed power power base broken parts
due to problems in the combustor it's

the single largest fuel
cost single largest cost.

Besides fuel for gas turbines So
this is pretty significant.

In fact I just for fun I pulled I
keep a file of this kind of stuff.

Where that where these types of
problems which are directly.

Aligned with the type of
research work that I do in my lab

shows up in the popular press so
this is actually this is from C.N.N.

Money from two thousand and five.

Calpine is a power producer
in the West Coast.

It went bankrupt about two years ago.

It's now back out of bankruptcy.

And so
they were basically hurt very badly when

natural gas prices went
up went up quite a bit.

Which which drove them into bankruptcy but
I just highlighted a quote here and where

it says Calpine corpus unexpected costs
due to equipment failure in the fourth

quarter were related almost entirely to
turbines purchased from Siemens actually

these were Westinghouse turbines Calpine
executive said Thursday in a conference

call with Wall Street analysts were if
you're seen as you've got to love this.

I love seeing this in C N N Money.

And then we then you can see down
here the company which has built

its huge fleet of natural gas fired fired
power plants the United States over

the past several years said equipment
failure across a forty five point three

million dollars were a significant
part of the downturn in response.

So this is directly related to the fact
that these systems were using state

of the technology it was really
deployed before it was ready to be.

Here's another one this is from
the London Financial Times this

relates to a power plant in Chile.

Title is daggers drawn over a new one
now in CO was a power site in Chile and.

Basically what happened was.

The power plant decided to
reject the plant which is

which is an option in the contract
where they basically told Siemens.

Thanks for putting in this.

Multi hundred million dollar plant but
we don't want it it's yours.

Give us back all our money.

And the reason for that is they were eggs.

Well they were exacerbated by repeated
breakdowns at the new plant So

for example one of the things that
happened was these plants have very

very large ceramic tiles in
the combustion chamber and they had these

these acoustic oscillations which I
referred to which actually took one of

these big tiles shook it loose it shut
downstream it took out the whole turbine.

So it brought this whole plant brand
a beautiful brand new plant down and it.

As you can read down here the trouble
could not have come at a worse time for

Coburn the mainly hydro electric generator
and this came after a major drought

years so the hydroelectric power was
way down all the sudden lost their.

Sort of the centerpiece which were they
were going to be making up the power and

in fact Chile had rolling blackouts for

about a year cost about three
hundred million dollars in economic.

Lost revenues according
to some estimates due to

these combustion problems
associated low knocks.

So that's another one.

Actually here's the last one you know this
is from the Philippines were Siemens is

actually seeking arbitration because
a power plant that they were building.

They're being sued for

hundred million dollars again related to
these very very significant problems.

So it's like I said I just want it.

These are basically case
studies the kind of

experience that we've gained
over the last ten years.

Related to knock the same kind of
issues are going to be very very

challenging with C O two.

So I just want to give
you that perspective.

Let me give you so that that's an opera
build a case study I'll give you one more

time talk about operability we can also
talk about turn down really really

important that if you build a power plant
you want to be able to very nimbly and

research and responsibly respond
to electricity demand part.

If you need high power you ought
to be able to operate with high

power if the power to me is low or
you want to be able to to not.

This is a a graph showing
normalized load for

a very very large combined cycle power.

Point as a function of time and what you
can see is there basically turning it on

in the morning and shutting it off at
night turning it on in the morning.

Shutting off at night.

Now this is a huge plant lots of metal
which means the whole thing is getting

heated up in the morning shut down
at night it was not designed for

this this plant was designed to run for
three years straight without shutting it

down after three years to be shut down and
taken apart.

In fact this is the C.E.O.

of Siemens one of the comments he made
at a power conference was he said if.

The one industry trend he would have never
have predicted in the early ninety's was

that the huge fully of natural gas fired
power plants that they were deploying

which were designed to operate and
a base load capability to just run for

years on end would be cycled the run
turned on the morning turned off at night.

Well why did they have to do this while
they had to do this because they got

whacked with with with with two two high
level drivers one is natural at all.

This could new capacity one
online seemed like a great idea

when natural gas was cheap natural
gas prices went way up all this and

it wasn't profitable to operate these
devices except during peak power

demands on the price of electricity
was high during the evening.

It wasn't profitable to operate these Well
ideally what you'd like to do is turn

the power down maybe to ten or twenty
percent let the thing idle overnight and

crank it back up.

Well you couldn't do that because
what would happen is that your C.E.O.

emissions went through the roof they went
out of they went out of compliance with

the plans permit.

So rather they had to shut this whole
power plant down Bring back on.

OK so I don't want to I don't want to beat
this point to death but I guess the key

point is there's a lot of tradeoffs and
challenges which drive the larger energy

system which come right back to the
combustor particularly as we look at loan

ox technologies almost all of the key
the key challenges derive from operability

issues with the combustor sea of lots
of trade offs and challenges between.

Turndown operability emissions and
overall cost and complexity of the system.

So with that.

Is it sort of.

A little bit of background now.

Now we can focus on low
C O two combustion again.

The C O two emissions the same point
they're set by the when you pick

your fuel in your cycle the C O
two emissions is fixed.

You know a good or a bad combustor is
going to you know a combustor is basically

a C O two in a water generator a good or

a bad combustion system organ is
going to do the same thing really.

It sets the combustion configuration and
challenges and so

the key combustion research
areas then fall out of what

does what are the requirements in
a place in the combustion system and

they're quite different depending upon
whether you want to capture your carbon

prior to the combustion process
after the combustion process or

if you want to burn and near zero net C O
two emitting fuel like a like a biofuel So

what I want to do is I'm going to
tick through some of these in and

talk through what's happening there.

So we talk about pre-convention

carbon capture the key idea here is you
remove the carbon prior to combustion.

And really what that means is you
have to have a combustion system

that's capable of burning
a high hydrogen fuel for

example I can I just integrated
gasification combined cycle.

So you could take a biofuel you could take
coal you could take some liquid fuel you

gasify it.

Turns it into a synthesis gas hydrogen and
C.E.O. then you run it through a water gas

shift reactor to shift to shift it to
basically hydrogen and C O two you pull

the C O two off and you can be running a
high hydrogen fuel through the combustion.

Well hydrogen induces very significant
combustion issues primarily because

hydrogen is a very very different molecule
than methane or some some heavy duty oil.

Hydrogen has a very high flame speed.

So if I were to fill this room up with
with methane an era natural gas and

I was delighted spark the flame
would propagate out at

some speed we call that the flame speed.

If I was to do the same experiment with
hydrogen it would be almost an well over

an order of magnitude faster.

That really is the crux of the problem.

And so you get a problem called flashback
where the flame doesn't want to sit in

the combustor which is where it's supposed
to be that's the part designed for.

High temperatures it's got
cooling flows rather plan was to

shoot upstream This is
actually a visualisation flow.

The flow is going this way the flame
doesn't want to sit down here

where it's supposed to it's actually
this is a time series showing

the flames shooting upstream.

Into the passages not designed for
the Flames is that image taken in a lab.

And so on the ground.

What this does is if you are if you buy up
a one of these systems today it will have

a very specific warranty which will limit
your hydrogen to on the order of less

than five percent by my boy.

You simply the technology does not exist
today if you wanted to burn a sin.

Gas in a low knocks combustion system.

You can't buy the technology today to
do that because because of this issue.

So if you.

But now that's not to say there aren't
plants there are power plants out there

burning hydrogen fuel so there's some of
them burning ninety percent hydrogen.

There are a number of of
of boilers in Texas which

are taking off gases from refineries
which are very very high hydrogen.

But they have to use older high
basically high Knox technology

which then takes additional
scrubbers Yes sir.

And yeah combined cycle power plants.

Yeah I'm

particularly talking about
about gas turbines but

you get similar challenges they show
up in slightly different ways with.

With I.C. engines you know
particularly the type engines you get

similar there are a parallel
set of issues that arise there.

So.

This is just some data illustrate.

The same point.

This is some terminal flame speed
data which was taken in our lab.

This is that basically implying that
the speed with which the terminal flame

propagates as a function of
the percentage of hydrogen and

you just get massive increases in
the flame speed with hydrogen.

Another big issue is the same issue
of combustion instabilities which

I talked about earlier very
very problematic with hydrogen.

The designs that you have to
that you have to do to make

these systems capable of
burning with hydrogen.

As well as Linux makes them very very
susceptible to large amplitude of coast

acoustic pulsations this is
actually a simulation taken

made by one of my colleagues showing.

The yellow is an instantaneous image
of what the flame looks like in one

of these systems the blue is vorticity So
this is these are basically vortices and

what's happening is you get acoustic
waves which excite vortices which

disturb the flame and you get these very
very large sample to pulsations and and

then this kind of stuff happens.

This is called a transition piece that
connects the combustor to the turbine and

chunks break off and they go off and then
they cause multi million dollar failures.

This is just another image of a of what's

happening during one of these
instabilities this is what we call

this planar laser induced fluorescents
basically what we do is we take a laser we

shine it through the flame in
a very specific wavelength.

Which makes radicals fluoresce and
you get a nice.

A nice shot of what
a highly three dimensional.

Contorted flame looks like if you
were to take a cut through it.

So what's happening is this fuel
an heiress coming through here and

this interface right here is
the instantaneous location.

Where over a fraction of a millimeter
the fuel is being consumed

internally products so flames are very the
actual flame itself is extremely thin but

the main thing what you can see is as you
walk through this this image is you can

see the flame is getting longer.

For example here the whole flame looks
like this you see this big vortex

which is grabbing the flame contorting it.

It's causing this instability.

Which which is very
problematic with hydrogen.

OK Let me shift gears a little bit here.

I've talked about the key challenge

associated to combustion challenge
associated pre-convention

carbon capture now talk about post
combustion carbon capture and.

The challenge here arises from the fact
that if you're going to have a sequester

will stream primarily composed of as large
a fraction as possible of C O two and

water you can condense the water out.

But you know you.

You know preferably you'd like
to have as you like to increase

the C O two volume fraction.

And there's two ways you can do that
either you can have exhaust gas research

elation we've basically re circulate
the exhaust gas back around.

Or you can do what's called Oxy
combustion where you say forget it I'm

not going to burn air.

Rather what I want to do is I'm
a have an air separation unit I'm

going to take the oxygen.

I'm going to burn oxygen fuel so
I don't have any of the nitrogen that

that that drives down the mole
fraction of C O two in the exhaust.

However you burn oxygen and fuel but
it's a very very high temperature

flame you'd never be able to
deal with the material problems.

So what you do is you control your flame
temperature by diluting the oxygen with

recycled steam or with recycled C O two.

This is a picture of a power plant in
a demonstrator a five megawatt power

plant in California operated by a company
called Clean Energy Systems and

they have money from the U.S.

Department of Energy and California Energy
Commission to do this with recycled steam.

So they're basically burning oxygen and
methane and

they're basically dumping steam into the
system to keep the flame temperature down

but then they basically generate an almost
pure C O two exhaust ring from the system.

Now this particular site they're not
actually sequestering the C O two.

But they did the same company clean energy
systems did just receive a very large do

a grant to build a larger plant where
they will actually be sequestering it.

So this is the kind.

The kind of technology.

I'm talking about.

So you know if you think about.

Well what's the key differentiator with
from one of these systems from bring in

air when air the oxygen and
nitrogen nitrogen ratio is fixed and

your key knob that used to control
flame temperature story you're going to

basically run with lots and
lots of excess air.

And you're.

In terms of emissions Knox and C.E.O.

are your major pollutant concerns
if you look look at an oxy system.

The way you do this is you

adjust the carbon dioxide oxygen ratio to
control flame temperature and you want to

run this thing at a story gallantries
absolutely close to one is possible.

The reason for that is if you're running.

You're now paying for the oxygen.

You know it's not for free anymore.

So if you don't want to run with lots and

lots of excess oxygen like you
do with the in air system.

See you but you're also paying for
the fuel so

you want to every bit of oxygen
fuel which you're paying for

you want to be burning and actually
running at a store counter one raises lots

of interesting kinetic issues and then if
you look at the emissions basically you're

looking at basically zero knocks emissions
unless you have nitrogen in your fuel.

But you get very significant c O. levels
and then you start worrying about things

like oxygen emissions as well which
we'll talk about and then it.

So if you look at some of
the challenges associated with the C O

two issues operability pops
right up big big concern.

I should have showed you earlier this
is an S R seventy one during a high G.

turn this is a very graphic illustration
of what blow off is the this this

is not supposed to be here.

It's supposed to be you know right
about here and but what happens

is all that C O two or Iraq or steam in
the system it inhibits the chemistry.

Those are supposed to be products if
you think about your chemical reaction

equations you have stuff going to products
and if you take all those products and

you put on the left hand side it.

It it really throws off the equilibrium.

Levels are basically wants to drive
the chemistry the other way so

flame loft is basically a big concern and
so what that means is turn down.

Remember turndowns important you
want your system to be able to

operate at whatever power leveled your
operator would like it's reduced if

you have less turned down
relative to an air fuel system.

I talked about emissions.

With these type of emissions that I'll
tell you that Kimberly a power plant.

If you were to stick your nose in
the exhaust you'd probably be dead

in a fraction of a second because
I can guarantee you the C.E.O.

levels are probably on the order
of percents not P.P.M. which we

normally worry about you know you think
will hundred ppm C O you get a headache in

a thousand you start vomiting you know
whatever the continuous This is per cents.

Because what happens is this well in that
case with all that steam they're basically

killing the chemistry but
you know if you have very very high.

Theo to levels even from an equilibrium
point of view you get an order of

magnitude increase in exhaust C O O C O's
a pollutant it's also a loss in combustion

efficiency of think about it.

That's see it covered up
carbon oxides of fuel.

It's got a lot of energy in it.

And it's feel that you paid for
it and then.

Oxygen Well oxygen is normally
a major exhaust effluent but

again you're paying for it for
one you don't want to waste it.

You know one oxygen coming out the exhaust
and that also if this is a major

near term application of all
the C O two would be for

enhanced oil recovery take the C O two and
you use it to get or

oil which means have to put in a pipeline
or pipelines have to have to have.

Stringent specs on oxygen levels.

So you could have a catalyst to
pull the oxygen out post system or

you preferably you'd like to design your
combustion system such that you basically

emitting very very low
levels of oxygen and

turns out that these two
compete against each other.

This is just an equilibrium calculation
and if you look at you can also look at

this from a kinetics point of view but
you know if you were to plot

the flame temperature on the X.
axis versus a story on the Y. axis and.

You can see we're operating you're going
to want to run right near a store counter

of one equipment ratio of one so
you're balanced and

the solid lines are lines of
constant C L in parts per million.

So when you're rich you got lots of C.E.O.

you know twenty thousand
parts per million.

As opposed to one hundred
parts per million.

In the dash lines are oxygen.

Levels also in parts per million.

So here if you're you're leaning
out lots of oxygen versus

appear you don't have much.

And the two are not going in
the same direction that to

balance C O in Oxygen's
a pretty tight balancing act.

And so what happens is if you put all
the stuff together some really interesting

interesting combustion challenges
associated with the overall operational

space if you think about this graph
well low temperatures Bloss a big issue.

This is the same temperature versus
the economics of Bloss a big issue over

here going as you start going richer.

C.-O. becomes a big issue as you start
going leaner oxygen becomes an issue and

what you hope is that when you
draw these lines in a real system.

It's they're not mutually exclusive.

There is actually an operational space and
so there's lots of interesting combustion

challenges which are working on
Open Source of trying to model and

characterize where these lines are as
a function of pressure and temperature and

fuel and then also developing strategies
to try to open that box up so

you actually have a system
with some flexibility.

OK so
I talked about combustion challenges for

pre-convention capture
post-concussion cap which are.

I think I've talked long enough so
I'll just throw this up here.

There's also some interesting things
associate with combustion of biofuels.

And it sort of depends upon whether
you're looking at a gasified biofuel or

a liquid biofuel So gasified bio fuel
that's basically a synthesis gas.

You know from a combustor point of view
I don't care whether it's your it's

coming from a tree or from coal.

You know the hydrogen C O ratio changes
a little bit the billions change but

it's basically the same problem as I
talked about earlier if you talk about.

A liquid derived biofuel then you get some
interesting things particularly you start

looking at Bio oils.

They have some really interesting
this viscous properties.

So you get some very complex atomization
evaporation combustion characteristics

they don't vaporize in
the conventional manner of

that we're used to thinking rather you
get what you're called micro explosion.

Atomization characteristics are the things
don't just evaporated get smaller.

Rather they as they as they heat up
also and they fret they fracture and

they fragment into thousands
of small micro droplets.

OK so just let me just wrap up just say
there's lots of exciting challenges

associated with putting all this
stuff together feel flexibility.

What I call Clean Air Act emissions which
is knocks and then we throw in C O two

that adds to it and then if you start
adding the additional requirements

of operational flexibility reliability and
cost that that really it starts making.

Lots of interesting problems for
us to work on.

OK Thank you all for
your attention but thank you.

Yeah.

Really really.

Yeah I'm not too worried.

I did a lot of soul searching five years
ago and I decided you know I think.

The U.S. has got a whole lot of coal.

We got out as of the last two
years we got a lot of natural gas.

I think that very those very
pragmatic considerations

are going to keep combustion business for
the next hundred years.

You know I've seen that some of
the projections from from G.E.

Energy Siemens energy or Exxon.

And you're just there
internal projections.

You know even out to twenty one hundred.

I mean for our lifetime and
my children's lifetime it's.

There's it's.

You know I can't nobody can predict
the future but there's very reasonable

scenario suggesting that that these are
probably going to have to be dealt with.

In that way or

if Andre wants to rebut that and I have.

All my heart I very.

Yeah that would be you know.

I've never seen that were you

I mean why would you.

I know.

Why I'm mad.

Yeah they are in fact if you look you know
the U.S. the Department of Energy but

three years ago they awarded
fifty million dollars to G.E.

and Siemens to develop
a high hydrogen turbine.

So which.

It which has involved them looking at
totally new combustor design paradigms

two that can be used inside of a pretty
combustion carbon capture scheme

to burn out high hydrogen it has to be
a totally different combustion paradigm.

Yes ma'am.

And.

Yeah so.

Almost everything I said here
carries directly over the airline

the aircraft engine applications
a couple big differences so

if you start looking at these big
efficiency increases that means you're

talking about big increases
in overall pressure ratio.

So you know versus Well a power plant
might be running at fifteen bar or

state of the art system an H.
class turbine might be right.

Eighteen atmospheres these systems
are running up and fifty atmospheres.

And so.

A couple big issues well if OK if you
look at it if you look at like a G.E.

the Major there is the three major
companies General Electric Pratt Whitney

and Rolls Royce slightly
different philosophy G.E.

has gone towards more of a pre-mixed
combustion approach so a lot of these

these challenges that I've been talking
about have been have been driven by

the fact that you are pre-mix in the fuel
in the air so you have a combustor here

rather than dumping fuel in the air in the
combustion chamber and letting the mix and

burn where you can't control the story
key on the tree and get a very high

temperature flow makes a lot of knocks
you pre-mix the fuel in the air upstream.

So you have this big volume of
combustible mixture pre-mix but

you can control the story.

Q How much you can get a low
flame temperature will G.E.

has basically made their
aircraft look kind of pre-mixed.

Which has introduced a lot of these issues
in fact I think quite relieved about

Boeing's delays in the seven eight seven
because they've had a lot of problems with

the development there Gen X. engine
because the exact same issues on time

at Pratt Whitney what they've been they've
developed what's called R Q L technology.

Which is much more near term practical
hasn't suffered from many issues but

it's its ultimate ability to limit
Clean Air Act type emissions or

you know I K A regulated missions like
Knox and C.E.O. is is much more limited.

So but even practice starting to look
toward more pre-mix technologies but

in an aircraft type environment where
you're running with a liquid fuel

a big difference between a liquid fuel.

And methane is what's called the auto
ignition temperature if you take

a mixture of deck.

You know decking which is basically
Jet A jet is basically decking

you mix with fuel and you fill it.

You put in a box you increase the
temperature of the box at some temperature

it goes bang.

You know it burns.

Well that's and then you do the same
experiment for methane air.

Well methane air.

It's over and
over about a thousand degrees for

a decade it's about three hundred.

Which means that that for

an aircraft type application I
will I will go to the picture.

You are trying to pre-mixed but

the stuff is wants to burn it wants to
burn and so you have this you're trying

to walk this tightrope where you have
to give it enough time for it to mix so

that you control knocks without a lot of
igniting an auto ignition has been G.E.'s.

Biggest issue with the Gen X. engine
which is their seven eight seven engine.

A lot of.

Whole

market.

All.

Yeah I do.

OK I my knowledge in this is somewhat
limited but my understanding is if that

they're using World Bank financing and
there are certain requirements of

the plant has to meet on emissions and so
for example this this plant that I showed

you the very beginning in the Philippines
where they had that lawsuit.

The only reason they used
the low Knox technology was so

that they could get some World Bank
funds to help build the plant.

If they're not than I don't think
they care at all about emissions and

so a lot of the stuff comes off the table.

That world.

Well we'll.

Yeah but there are you know I know India
and China there's there's lots and lots of

interest in in the same in these same type
of technologies that I talked about here.

And again that.

I don't know if it was but

I do know that they put in a whole
bunch of women in Georgia.

You know all the years.

You know actually there is an interesting
interesting comment there was there was

an article in power engineering where
a guy was talking about how can we

how can we meet these what
is the Waxman Markey.

Some of the goals that they have for
the U.S. C O two emissions which

set some certain requirements I think
by the year two thousand and twenty.

And basically what the guy said is the
best way that we can the best thing we can

do to meet all those requirements is only
build colp of coal fire power plants and

he said a little bit tongue in cheek but
his key point was.

We've got so much nasty legacy stuff out
there that's our problem if we could just

take all the coal fired power generation
the US and replace it with best available

even not even a gas turbine but
just a boiler would be there already.

Which is an interesting comment.

You know just if it's just deploying
best available technology.

In a in a cost competitive way
is really powerful you know

I'm certainly invested in developing new
technology but you know there's a lot

of good stuff out there just from
a business point of view it's deployed.

You know getting the cost down and that's.