LESLIE KNOPE: Are you even listening to yourself? You're defending the library now? Ron, the library. Of all the horrifying, miserable things in the world. RON SWANSON: Some people like libraries. LESLIE KNOPE: I can't even believe what I'm hearing. Some people like libraries. [TELEVISION, "FRICTION"] CHARLIE BENNETT: You are listening to WREK Atlanta, and this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show. And if I remember correctly, we're like a motorcycle gang, except instead of shotguns and meth, we're well read and we shush. [LAUGHTER] FRED RASCOE: Dangerous. CHARLIE BENNETT: Parks and Rec, everybody. I'm Charlie Bennett in the studio with Fred Rascoe, Marlee Givens, Danielle Evans, and Cody Turner. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you are here for, we hope you dig it. MARLEE GIVENS: Today's show is called "Belonging in the Inclusive Library." CHARLIE BENNETT: That's right. When we think of libraries, we don't think of motorcycle gangs. We actually think of truly public places, a place that welcomes anyone, any race, age, gender. Whatever characteristic you want to make into a category, any identity should be welcome in a library. MARLEE GIVENS: Unfortunately, despite our idealistic aspirations, libraries don't always reach that goal, and there are a variety of internal and external reasons why we fall short. DANIELLE EVANS: Today, we're going to talk about how we frame belonging in the library, and what are the roadblocks, past and present, that keep us from achieving that goal. FRED RASCOE: And our songs today are about not being welcome, trying to connect with people, and finding a place you belong. Seems like being included in a public space should be a pretty uncontroversial idea. But these days, who knows? CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh, my gosh. FRED RASCOE: Whatever. So let's start, appropriately enough, with "Song for Insane Times," by Kevin Ayers, right here on Lost in the Stacks. [KEVIN AYERS, "SONG FOR INSANE TIMES"] FRED RASCOE: "Song for Insane Times," by Kevin Ayers. Our show today is called Belonging in the Inclusive Library, and I want to set up the discussion here, y'all, if you will allow me. CHARLIE BENNETT: What if I don't? DANIELLE EVANS: Mm. FRED RASCOE: I think I will do it anyway. CHARLIE BENNETT: Nice. FRED RASCOE: We're both going to belong in this discussion. CHARLIE BENNETT: Another sign of the times, right there. FRED RASCOE: Yeah. Both points of view will be heard. So, in our own academic library, here at Georgia Tech, at various places throughout the halls and in various rooms, there are hung in prominent places these posters. I don't know, there's maybe 10 or 12 around the library. And at the top these posters say, "you belong," in really big letters, and usually there's a picture of a student there, standing there belonging in the library. CHARLIE BENNETT: That's right. FRED RASCOE: But there's some text under this, where it says "you belong" in the library. And it's a series of promises that the library makes to its community of users. I'm just going to go through those really quickly. Our promise to you. Students are our top priority. We strive for excellence. We thrive on diversity. We celebrate collaboration. We champion innovation. We safeguard freedom of inquiry and expression. We nurture the well-being of our community. We act ethically. And we are responsible stewards. CHARLIE BENNETT: Don't forget that last line. Love, GT. FRED RASCOE: Love GT. CHARLIE BENNETT: Living our values, every day, Georgia Tech. FRED RASCOE: That is the slogan and the logo. So that's a message that's up everywhere in the library and sounds great. That's our mission. And we did it, right, guys? CHARLIE BENNETT: Well, hold on a second there, Fred. FRED RASCOE: Oh. CHARLIE BENNETT: Because I see a couple words in here that I guess aren't OK anymore. There's diversity, there. MARLEE GIVENS: Mhm. FRED RASCOE: Mhm, yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: And also, no one likes to say ethnically anymore. FRED RASCOE: Ooh. CHARLIE BENNETT: It's just a bummer. MARLEE GIVENS: Mm. FRED RASCOE: Yeah CHARLIE BENNETT: OK, no more fooling around. So, yeah, we thrive on diversity, which is a piece of the Georgia Tech official values, is on this poster. FRED RASCOE: Right. CHARLIE BENNETT: And these days, people respond to the word diversity or inclusion or equity with a very different tone and a very different emotional landscape than a few years ago. FRED RASCOE: Officially and unofficially, I will say that at Georgia Tech, at similar to a lot of academic institutions, diversity may be of a value, something aspirational, but including it in official University policy, either here at Georgia Tech or at other places is a bit diminished now. CHARLIE BENNETT: Do you want to try and say why? FRED RASCOE: Well, we can talk about the current political climate in the United States, but I just want to talk about what actually has happened at Georgia Tech. CHARLIE BENNETT: And I do want to say, this is not a partisan, political discussion-- FRED RASCOE: We're not-- MARLEE GIVENS: Mhm. FRED RASCOE: This is not-- CHARLIE BENNETT: --about existence of people. FRED RASCOE: This is not an-- CHARLIE BENNETT: --in public spaces. FRED RASCOE: Right. This is not an advocacy or necessarily a pushing back, but it is saying what has happened and what the situation is now. So what has happened at Georgia Tech, which is similar to a lot of academic institutions, our Institute-- Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Office was folded into an office called Student Belonging. It is is no longer a diversity, equity and inclusion office. The Office of Minority Educational Development was sunset. Advance, which was the office to advance female faculty members through their career, has sort of broadened its focus. It's no longer that narrowly specific. The LGBTQ Resource Center was also folded into Student Belonging. There's probably others that I'm not thinking of initially. So I bring this up because there's that dichotomy. You know, we want everyone to belong in the Georgia Tech Library. We say that, but it is a tension with actual policy that exists at Georgia Tech, even within the Georgia Tech Library. CHARLIE BENNETT: Mhm. FRED RASCOE: I mean, Danielle, you're a guest panelist today, and you and I both kind of surfed through the transition of the library having a Diversity Committee. DANIELLE EVANS: Yep. FRED RASCOE: Which changed to-- DANIELLE EVANS: The Library Engagement and Inclusion Council. FRED RASCOE: Right. DANIELLE EVANS: Which changed to the Library Advisory Committee. So it's seen a lot of word changes but, at the heart of it, the work remains the same. CHARLIE BENNETT: Where did the need or the directive to change those names come from for you? DANIELLE EVANS: The need to change the wording of our work stemmed from a desire to keep doing the work without having fingers pointed at us. CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah. DANIELLE EVANS: So the mission and what we're trying to do has never changed. But we have to package it a little differently. FRED RASCOE: Because we want everyone to belong in the library. We want there to be that inclusion. But there has been pushback against making that-- naming that as official policy because of political connotations. CHARLIE BENNETT: Cultural connotations, too. FRED RASCOE: Cultural connotations. MARLEE GIVENS: Mhm FRED RASCOE: Yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: I believe the sponsor of a recent anti-DEI bill in the Georgia legislature said diversity, equity, and inclusion are the opposite of equality, or the opposite of equal opportunity. It was a very bold refusal to understand any subtlety or distinction within those terms. And I think that that attitude, which might have been just kind of a general oh, I think this, it's common sense, kind of attitude for a lot of people has become a political stance, has become a cultural stance. FRED RASCOE: And so what do we mean when we say that students belong? Because there's not necessarily a University policy that backs that up. There's definitely not a government policy that trickles down to University policy that backs that up. So is there a disconnect then, in saying, like, we belong? Does there need to be a policy or can we have this poster up that says "you belong" and mean it even without policies that are officially laid out to that effect? CHARLIE BENNETT: You know what's funny, is that when you said, what do we mean? FRED RASCOE: Yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: I was ready to explain it. And then you finish that whole thing with, can we mean it? And then I just went into-- [INTERPOSING VOICES] CHARLIE BENNETT: Because the idea of an inclusive library means that there is no model library patron whose qualities must be matched by all other library patrons. Their mental, cultural, ethical, political, physical qualities do not need to match up with some condition to use the library. And that is everything from the color of your skin should not be a thing that people say, oh, wait, no, you can't come in here. But also, if you have trouble seeing, if you have trouble walking, if you have trouble thinking, which some people do. It's not just crazy people, right, which is now a pejorative term. But people have mental difficulties which make it hard for them to access resources if there is no accommodation, if there's no understanding that we have to help people out. So no uniform library patron, that's what that should mean. Can we mean that? Well, I'm not a lawyer. FRED RASCOE: Right. It seems like that depends on those external pressures that we're talking about, whether we mean it or not. CHARLIE BENNETT: And those external pressures are either formal and official, or like Danielle was sort of leaning toward, just people don't certain ways to say it so we want to do the work without getting hassled. DANIELLE EVANS: But it's also important to remember that there's also a diversity of thought when it comes to looking at the library patron, and there's no model library patron. So when we say you belong in the library, and you look at this poster that says, we safeguard freedom of inquiry and expression, that counts too. CHARLIE BENNETT: Now, that's a button. This is Lost in the Stacks. We'll be back with more about belonging in the library after a music set. DANIELLE EVANS: File this set under LB3609 .S77. [PAUL COLLINS BEAT, "I DON'T FIT IN"] (SINGING) Should I dress up [CURTIS KNIGHT AND THE SQUIRES, "YOU DON'T WANT ME"] I don't want you Somebody help me You don't want me I said I need somebody I don't want you Baby, you don't want me You don't want me FRED RASCOE: "You Don't Want Me," By Curtis Knight and the Squires, featuring Jimi Hendrix on guitar, by the way. "I Don't Belong," by Jerry's Kids. And we started off with "I Don't Fit In," by The Beat. Songs about feeling like you aren't welcome. [TELEVISION, "FRICTION"] DANIELLE EVANS: This is Lost in the Stacks, and today's show is called "Belonging in the Inclusive Library." FRED RASCOE: So I want to start this segment by talking a little bit about what happened in Georgia this year, because it has an impact on academia. It has an impact on the academic library, the Georgia Tech Library CHARLIE BENNETT: It has an impact on mental health. FRED RASCOE: Oh, boy. So-- CHARLIE BENNETT: [CHUCKLES] FRED RASCOE: As folks who might follow Georgia news, like a lot of states, there are various anti-DEI efforts that went through state House, state Senate. Here, we had something called HB127, here in Georgia, preventing public schools and public universities-- the short version is preventing DEI policies at public schools. CHARLIE BENNETT: You'll put no money or personnel or labor-- FRED RASCOE: Right, yeah CHARLIE BENNETT: --to DEI. FRED RASCOE: --to having something that's specifically about diversity, equity, and inclusion. It did not end up passing in Georgia because on Sine Die, which is the day when all legislative deliberation and voting ends, here in Georgia, they just decided to cut it off and it didn't even get to the final vote, although it did pass some stages of legislative committees and things like that. The "dear colleague" letter that came from the federal government, that's had some pushback in courts. CHARLIE BENNETT: And just to give people context on that, a "dear colleague" letter is an open letter, ostensibly from someone in a position of power or influence to my colleagues. But what it really is a declaration of, this is how we are going to proceed in public from now on. FRED RASCOE: Right. And if you've been following news of this sort, you've probably heard about the DEI "dear colleague" letter. So there's not been a specific diversity, equity, inclusion ban on campus, not one specifically directed at the library. But these efforts, which are widespread beyond Georgia, have had a chilling effect. And we talked about it in the first segment because we, actually, in the library had a diversity committee. But sensing these kinds of winds of change, various folks in campus administration started to send the word out that things really shouldn't be called diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so we kind of changed it from that to Library Engagement and Inclusion Council, and then landed on LAC, which is Library Advisory Committee. I'm losing track of the acronyms. DANIELLE EVANS: Yes. CHARLIE BENNETT: Are we at council or committee? DANIELLE EVANS: It's a committee. CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah. FRED RASCOE: Committee, OK. Yeah, CHARLIE BENNETT: I want to say what you said very clearly. A law did not pass, but all of the news around that law, including all the headlines that say this bill passed through first committee, this bill passed by Senate, this bill goes back to-- all that, that has created a sense and a nervousness around the idea of DEI, that it has been banned, that it is a problem, that you should remove it, that you should be quiet, that you should not get the attention of people who might write those laws. And in fact, I think some people think that bill passed. FRED RASCOE: Certainly, lots of folks are acting like it did. But whether it passed or not, we've got these declarations up in the library that say you belong no matter CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah. FRED RASCOE: And we've got this-- now it's the LAC, the Library Advisory Committee-- committee, council? God, I keep forgetting. DANIELLE EVANS: Committee. FRED RASCOE: Committee. Library Advisory Committee. And so what is the shift? Because you were part of the shift from previous iterations. What's the shift? How does it look to you, Danielle? DANIELLE EVANS: Well, yes. So I came in as co-chair and then chair of the Library Engagement Inclusion Council, and we-- due to everything that's been going on, everything that we've discussed during today's segment, it changed. We voted to-- actually, we voted to disband or disintegrate the LAIC, to form a new council, the Library Advisory Committee. But the makeup is still the same. It's made up of a ratioed number of staff and faculty at the library, who act as voices and liaisons for their colleagues and peers, to make sure that all voices are heard, to make sure that the library is progressing in a way that includes every student, but also every employee that works at the library, and just to ensure a space for people to talk about things they want to see happen or things that they are seeing happening. CHARLIE BENNETT: Marlee, correct me if I'm wrong. I think that you were on the very first iteration of the Diversity Council? MARLEE GIVENS: I was, because of my role as president of the Library Faculty Organization. That person is like an ex-officio member, I think, of what used to be that council. I actually forgot what the original name was. CHARLIE BENNETT: This is a good point, though. MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: The structure of these groups is so that people can speak and be heard when they have issues with how things operate or are run or the overall direction. So Library Faculty Organization is a mouthpiece for the faculty. Advisory committee, a mouthpiece for faculty and staff in conversation. MARLEE GIVENS: Correct. CHARLIE BENNETT: The whole-- and I say this all now as a white man in librarianship, the whole idea is to keep stuff from being decided by the loudest white man in the room. FRED RASCOE: And-- MARLEE GIVENS: Yep. FRED RASCOE: Hopefully we are landing there because if we're in a situation where it's just the typical majority person, the loudest white male, then we're not letting everyone belong. CHARLIE BENNETT: That's right. MARLEE GIVENS: You're listening to Lost in the Stacks, and we'll talk more about inclusivity and libraries on the left side of the hour. [TELEVISION, "FRICTION"] [FUGAZI, "COMBINATION LOCK"] IAN MACKAYE: Hello good people. You are Lost in the Stacks with Ian MacKaye, here on WREK in Atlanta. CHARLIE BENNETT: Today's episode is called "Belonging in the Inclusive Library." Popular attitudes towards whether terms like diversity and inclusion, are even valid in the context of our library work are shaped by the information, or misinformation, that people receive about libraries and librarians. Recently, Alexia Hudson Ward, Director of Research, Learning and Strategic Partnerships at MITs library, spoke on the Library 2035 webcast. She commented on the role that librarians with a variety of backgrounds and identities have in countering misinformation because misinformation doesn't just impact how we librarians do our jobs. It impacts whether we even get a chance to do our jobs at all. Here's what she had to say. [MUSIC PLAYING] ALEXIA HUDSON WARD: What I see happening, and what I think will be a continued-- I don't want to say trend, but will be a continuance of what will take place for libraries in the future is to say, hey, I bring all of these important identities to this work, right? And so therefore it informs differently how I can partner with faculty, with researchers, with students, with staff outside the libraries, on how we determine what is the best information to get out, how to combat disinformation that arises in the midst of conflicts, right? Unfortunately, we have these external forces that are coming into the fold of what's taking place at colleges and universities, and literally attempting to reshape not only curriculum, but actually aiming to remove people from their positions. We've never seen this happen before, right? And some of it is fueled by-- whether they be deliberate or not, they're fueled by disinformation campaigns. And so to me, this is the moment where the evidence base, the database, the truth base, the knowledge base detail must absolutely come to the fore. And we are the people that are best capacity to help with this and to lead with it. CHARLIE BENNETT: File this set under Z679.2 .U54. [FOREIGN BLUE RENAISSANCE, "FINDING YOU"] [MARY MCCASLIN, "MY WORLD IS EMPTY WITHOUT YOU"] --without you, babe Without you, babe My world is empty without you, babe Without you, babe My world is empty without you, babe MARLEE GIVENS: "My World is Empty Without You, Babe," by Mary McCaslin. And before that, "Finding You" by Foreign Blue Renaissance. Songs about people we're missing and want to connect with. [TELEVISION, "FRICTION"] CHARLIE BENNETT: This is Lost in the Stacks, and our show is called "Belonging in the Inclusive Library." OK, earlier you said, Fred, are we allowed to say, and are we able to mean, you belong in the library? FRED RASCOE: Right. CHARLIE BENNETT: And we went through the promises. Students are our top priority. We strive for excellence. We thrive on diversity. And we kind of stopped on thrive on diversity, because diversity, equity, and inclusion are terms that, when put together, become kind of a flag. FRED RASCOE: Yeah. Politically radioactive, sometimes. CHARLIE BENNETT: Politically radioactive. And also the tone, the tenor of culture at this moment in America means that people kind of self-censor. FRED RASCOE: Mhm. CHARLIE BENNETT: They recognize, oh, I need to do this under another name. I need to do this in a different way. And when we were listening to the music, we talked to Danielle a little bit about something that really seems to pull all of that into material focus. So, Danielle, will you tell us a little bit about the syllabus project that you're doing, as the Open Educational Resources Librarian. DANIELLE EVANS: Yeah. Well, first, I'll just say, one of my goals as in my position is to make sure that everyone has access to the information they need, regardless of what their major is, regardless of what their classes, if they're undergraduate or graduate, and regardless of if they can afford the materials or not. Thus, me as the Affordable Learning Librarian. That's what I do. One really cool thing that we've been tapping into is gathering course materials by looking at syllabi from teaching faculty and seeing, what do we already have in the library? What can we purchase? What can we make recommendations for? And as I think about how we can still be inclusive, but things that might hinder or shift us around certain obstacles, one of those things is, you have content that these professors are teaching and there's also fear for them in having a microphone or a magnifying glass over the content that they're teaching. So they don't want their names attached, all the time, to the syllabi or the content that they're teaching because there's a lot of fear there. And so there's some self-censoring in the library, but also across various other units. And we want to make sure that we're still able to provide that access when there's a lot of fear in other places too. CHARLIE BENNETT: So you're looking at syllabuses that faculty put out there, telling their students what the reading materials are or what the curriculum is going to be, and you're looking at that to see if the library can help find a more affordable or hopefully free version of whatever is on that syllabus which in your role, definitely helps marginalized communities. Open educational resources help marginalized communities and marginalized students to a greater extent. And so what you're seeing is that because of that chilling effect, professors don't want to have their name associated with whatever it is. Even though they haven't specifically been told not to include something, they're worried somebody might flag it. MARLEE GIVENS: And I kind of wonder, like, they're not necessarily afraid that we're going to look at their reading list. It's the whole, overall syllabus right? DANIELLE EVANS: Right. The course materials themselves, I don't care what they are. I just care how I can find them. And I think that's the general attitude of people in the library. But there's an overarching theme here, which is just fear of having a magnifying glass over everything that you're doing and making sure that you're aligned with this greater cultural shift that's going on. CHARLIE BENNETT: So even not using the language. That is now avoidance language, you're supposed to not say these kind of things. Just the concept of promoting some kind of equity, increasing access even for people who do not have the funds or the know how to get to stuff. DANIELLE EVANS: Right. CHARLIE BENNETT: That's being shut down because of the larger chilling effect around DEI principles. DANIELLE EVANS: Exactly. CHARLIE BENNETT: I don't know. I feel like there's a pretty simple solution in there somewhere. FRED RASCOE: There's a simple solution for a lot of things in today's politics, Charlie. [LAUGHTER] We're not into simple solutions in this state or this country, I think. CHARLIE BENNETT: I think, Fred, that we've gotten back to the answer to your question. Can we say you belong in the library? Sure. FRED RASCOE: Yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: Can we use certain words? Ah, we're trying not to. Can we do the things that make it so that people belong in the library? Only if everybody backs us up. FRED RASCOE: Right. And that's not necessarily been the case. And even though we talked about official policies that haven't passed, for instance, House Bill 127 in Georgia, things like that didn't pass. Those efforts. I mean, given the current political climate, probably going to come around and keep coming around. And eventually, some of those might pass. And some of these-- some of these policies, when they pass might mean that we can mean-- can mean it when we say you belong in the library, or mean it just a little bit less than we did before. CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh, you got that pessimism in there. FRED RASCOE: That's just me. MARLEE GIVENS: That's Fred's bread and butter. FRED RASCOE: Yeah pessimism belongs on this radio show. [LAUGHTER] MARLEE GIVENS: This is Lost in the Stacks, and today we've been talking about belonging and inclusion in academic libraries. FRED RASCOE: File this set under HF5549.5 .M5 E35. CHARLIE BENNETT: Hey, that was a no dot, dude. [THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS, "WE WANT A ROCK"] [VENUS AND THE FLYTRAPS, "HAPPY TO BE HERE"] --satisfied, right? MARLEE GIVENS: That was "Happy to Be Here" by Venus and the Flytraps. Before that, "This Is It," by Mr. Michael Motorcycle, and we started the set with my request, "We Want a Rock," by They Might be Giants. CHARLIE BENNETT: Marlee endorsed. MARLEE GIVENS: Songs about searching for and finding a sense of belonging. [TELEVISION, "FRICTION"] CHARLIE BENNETT: Our show today is called "Belonging in the Inclusive Library." FRED RASCOE: And we left out archives. CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh, yeah. FRED RASCOE: There's Belonging in the Inclusive Archives, too, of course. Where the heck is our archivist, anyway? CHARLIE BENNETT: Causing trouble. MARLEE GIVENS: Alex is in Anaheim, California, at the annual meeting of the Society of American Archivists, where she is co-presenting a session. Her topic is Belonging and Community in University Archives. CHARLIE BENNETT: What a coincidence! Here's a description of her session. What counts as belonging and community in archives and archival work? In the evolving landscape of higher education, archives can play a crucial role in linking students to campus history, enabling them to engage with and connect to their institution's unique narratives. This session brings together archivists and librarians to showcase diverse approaches to fostering belonging and community in the archives, and methods for assessing and measuring the impact of such programs and initiatives. Attendees will learn how archives shape identity, foster belonging, cause trouble, and empower students. I'm sorry-- No, foster belonging and empower students to connect and engage with history. She took our theme with her to California. OK, roll the credits [LUNGFISH, "BLACK HELICOPTERS"] Lost In the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library. Written and produced by Alex McGee, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens, along with today's guest producer, Danielle Evans. FRED RASCOE: Cody Turner is our stalwart board op. MARLEE GIVENS: Legal counsel, and a rock to tie a piece of string around were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. DANIELLE EVANS: Special thanks to everyone who helps foster a sense of belonging in the library and archives. And thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening. CHARLIE BENNETT: Our web page is library.gatech.edu/lostinthestacks, where you'll find our most recent episode, a link to our podcast feed, and a webform if you want to get in touch with us. MARLEE GIVENS: Next week, the legacy of Black women in librarianship, a profession that even today is 85% white. FRED RASCOE: That's kind of like racial makeup of this room right now. CHARLIE BENNETT: Dude. FRED RASCOE: Time for our last song today. It's an uncertain time for academic libraries and academia in general when people pause before talking about positive concepts like inclusion. But let's close on a note of optimism. CHARLIE BENNETT: It's actually 25% Black librarianship in the room because Cody, I mean, he's just a board op. FRED RASCOE: Oh, that's right. OK. Yeah, so thanks, Danielle, for being our 25%. DANIELLE EVANS: Always. FRED RASCOE: Even if times have politically polarized us now, maybe someday, some way we'll all be able to understand each other. CHARLIE BENNETT: Sure, Fred. What are you doing? FRED RASCOE: This is "Someday, Some Way," by Marshall Crenshaw, right here on Lost in the Stacks. Have a great weekend, everyone. We'll understand each other. [MARSHALL CRENSHAW, "SOMEDAY, SOME WAY"]