WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.500 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.500 --> 00:00:03.909 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:00:03.909 --> 00:00:15.110 align:middle line:90% 00:00:15.110 --> 00:00:18.100 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Interview with Dr. Ward Winer, faculty, 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:23.620 align:middle line:84% staff at Georgia Tech between the years of 1969 to 2007, 00:00:23.620 --> 00:00:28.140 align:middle line:84% conducted by Marilyn Somers on November the 19, the year 2007. 00:00:28.140 --> 00:00:30.560 align:middle line:84% We are at his home in Sandy Springs, Georgia. 00:00:30.560 --> 00:00:33.260 align:middle line:84% And the subject of the interview today, his life in general, 00:00:33.260 --> 00:00:35.240 align:middle line:90% his experiences at Georgia Tech. 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:38.440 align:middle line:84% And I may call you Ward because we do know each other. 00:00:38.440 --> 00:00:40.540 align:middle line:84% It's such a pleasure to be here with you today. 00:00:40.540 --> 00:00:43.360 align:middle line:84% And I really want to go back to the very beginning. 00:00:43.360 --> 00:00:44.860 align:middle line:90% We have this in common. 00:00:44.860 --> 00:00:46.160 align:middle line:90% We're both from Michigan. 00:00:46.160 --> 00:00:49.000 align:middle line:84% I want you to tell me where you were born and when. 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:53.060 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, June 27, 1936, in Grand Rapids, Michigan, 00:00:53.060 --> 00:00:53.963 align:middle line:90% in the home. 00:00:53.963 --> 00:00:55.880 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, you were born at home, not 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:56.920 align:middle line:90% in one of the hospitals there? 00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:58.253 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: 1812 Madison Avenue. 00:00:58.253 --> 00:00:59.190 align:middle line:90% I even know that. 00:00:59.190 --> 00:01:01.315 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You can remember your home address. 00:01:01.315 --> 00:01:04.090 align:middle line:84% Your parents were there for how many generations? 00:01:04.090 --> 00:01:05.750 align:middle line:90% Why were they there? 00:01:05.750 --> 00:01:08.170 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: They were there because of my dad's work. 00:01:08.170 --> 00:01:09.943 align:middle line:84% They had only been there a few years. 00:01:09.943 --> 00:01:11.610 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So where were they from? 00:01:11.610 --> 00:01:14.193 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: They both grew up in the eastern part of Michigan, 00:01:14.193 --> 00:01:16.330 align:middle line:84% in the thumb area, Marlette, Michigan. 00:01:16.330 --> 00:01:17.130 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Farming country out there. 00:01:17.130 --> 00:01:18.297 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Farming country. 00:01:18.297 --> 00:01:20.730 align:middle line:84% They both grew up on farms, yeah in fact, 00:01:20.730 --> 00:01:24.910 align:middle line:84% my mother's relatives are still there, got Cousins 00:01:24.910 --> 00:01:25.850 align:middle line:90% and what have you. 00:01:25.850 --> 00:01:29.270 align:middle line:84% And one of her brothers just died a year and a half ago. 00:01:29.270 --> 00:01:31.890 align:middle line:84% So, yeah, they grew up in Marlette. 00:01:31.890 --> 00:01:34.850 align:middle line:84% He was born in-- well, he was actually born in Crediton, 00:01:34.850 --> 00:01:35.462 align:middle line:90% Ontario in-- 00:01:35.462 --> 00:01:36.670 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, your dad? 00:01:36.670 --> 00:01:38.198 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: 1896, yeah, Canada. 00:01:38.198 --> 00:01:38.990 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: OK. 00:01:38.990 --> 00:01:43.883 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And my mother was born in Marlette area in 1903. 00:01:43.883 --> 00:01:45.550 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: How did they meet, then? 00:01:45.550 --> 00:01:46.630 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Well-- [LAUGHS] 00:01:46.630 --> 00:01:48.390 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did he immigrate down to-- 00:01:48.390 --> 00:01:50.330 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: My dad's family came. 00:01:50.330 --> 00:01:52.210 align:middle line:84% They were farmers in Canada as well. 00:01:52.210 --> 00:01:55.990 align:middle line:84% And they came across the ice in the wintertime 00:01:55.990 --> 00:01:59.450 align:middle line:84% across Lake St. Clair in Michigan. 00:01:59.450 --> 00:02:02.270 align:middle line:84% I jokingly say they were icebacks. 00:02:02.270 --> 00:02:03.190 align:middle line:90% They weren't wetbacks. 00:02:03.190 --> 00:02:04.970 align:middle line:84% They were-- I guess you'd consider them 00:02:04.970 --> 00:02:06.050 align:middle line:90% illegal immigrants now. 00:02:06.050 --> 00:02:07.250 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Because they just came. 00:02:07.250 --> 00:02:08.190 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, they came. 00:02:08.190 --> 00:02:08.410 align:middle line:90% But-- 00:02:08.410 --> 00:02:10.429 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: There would be no border crossings on the ice 00:02:10.429 --> 00:02:10.929 align:middle line:90% flow 00:02:10.929 --> 00:02:13.890 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Horse and sleigh and all their belongings, 00:02:13.890 --> 00:02:18.550 align:middle line:84% and got a farm in the thumb area of Michigan, 00:02:18.550 --> 00:02:25.210 align:middle line:84% had crop farm and some cattle, and the same for my mother. 00:02:25.210 --> 00:02:29.510 align:middle line:84% Her mother was born in Marlette area. 00:02:29.510 --> 00:02:31.927 align:middle line:84% But her father was also born in Canada, Ontario someplace. 00:02:31.927 --> 00:02:33.468 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I think that might've 00:02:33.468 --> 00:02:36.510 align:middle line:84% been a pretty common thing to come across when they could. 00:02:36.510 --> 00:02:37.510 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, well-- 00:02:37.510 --> 00:02:38.718 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: To do better. 00:02:38.718 --> 00:02:41.650 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yep, well, it was to get some better land and what 00:02:41.650 --> 00:02:42.410 align:middle line:90% have you. 00:02:42.410 --> 00:02:43.610 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did you ever have the opportunity 00:02:43.610 --> 00:02:45.030 align:middle line:84% to know any of your grandparents? 00:02:45.030 --> 00:02:46.130 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, I knew all four of them. 00:02:46.130 --> 00:02:48.005 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did you get to know all four? 00:02:48.005 --> 00:02:49.290 align:middle line:90% Oh, that's wonderful. 00:02:49.290 --> 00:02:54.330 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: My father's parents died first. 00:02:54.330 --> 00:03:00.720 align:middle line:84% I was probably about 12 or so when my father's father died 00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:03.520 align:middle line:84% and, I don't know, maybe 18 or 19 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:05.940 align:middle line:84% or so when my father's mother died. 00:03:05.940 --> 00:03:11.380 align:middle line:84% And then my grandfather on my mother's side lived to be 89, 00:03:11.380 --> 00:03:11.900 align:middle line:90% I think. 00:03:11.900 --> 00:03:16.120 align:middle line:84% And my grandmother on my mother's side lived to be 97. 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:18.420 align:middle line:90% And so I knew them quite well. 00:03:18.420 --> 00:03:21.540 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you have long-lived genes in there. 00:03:21.540 --> 00:03:23.460 align:middle line:84% That's wonderful that you knew them, then. 00:03:23.460 --> 00:03:24.960 align:middle line:90% So you have real clear memories. 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:29.020 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, they had formative experiences 00:03:29.020 --> 00:03:31.020 align:middle line:90% on my father's side. 00:03:31.020 --> 00:03:34.420 align:middle line:84% The parents lost their farm in the depression, 00:03:34.420 --> 00:03:37.980 align:middle line:84% which had them turn around and never buy a farm again. 00:03:37.980 --> 00:03:40.440 align:middle line:84% I mean, they just rented farms after that. 00:03:40.440 --> 00:03:44.080 align:middle line:84% And my parents lost the house in the depression. 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.760 align:middle line:84% But my father went through the eighth grade. 00:03:47.760 --> 00:03:53.542 align:middle line:84% My mother went through the 11th grade and then left school. 00:03:53.542 --> 00:03:55.250 align:middle line:84% My dad had to leave school to go to work. 00:03:55.250 --> 00:03:56.710 align:middle line:90% He went to work. 00:03:56.710 --> 00:03:59.870 align:middle line:84% Well, his father put him out to work on another farm 00:03:59.870 --> 00:04:02.810 align:middle line:84% and came and collected his wages every week. 00:04:02.810 --> 00:04:04.450 align:middle line:84% And that lasted a couple of years. 00:04:04.450 --> 00:04:06.130 align:middle line:90% And my father had enough. 00:04:06.130 --> 00:04:07.490 align:middle line:90% So he had to fight with his dad. 00:04:07.490 --> 00:04:10.110 align:middle line:84% And he left and didn't speak to his dad for several years 00:04:10.110 --> 00:04:12.830 align:middle line:90% after that. 00:04:12.830 --> 00:04:15.450 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, they were used to hard times. 00:04:15.450 --> 00:04:16.850 align:middle line:90% Life was tough for them then. 00:04:16.850 --> 00:04:19.010 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, my grandparents, 00:04:19.010 --> 00:04:23.310 align:middle line:84% to give you an idea, on my father's side, I remember when 00:04:23.310 --> 00:04:24.210 align:middle line:90% they-- 00:04:24.210 --> 00:04:26.650 align:middle line:84% I'm pretty sure they did not have electricity. 00:04:26.650 --> 00:04:28.050 align:middle line:84% No, they didn't have electricity. 00:04:28.050 --> 00:04:32.870 align:middle line:84% They had outhouse and no central heating 00:04:32.870 --> 00:04:34.270 align:middle line:90% or any of that sort of thing. 00:04:34.270 --> 00:04:37.190 align:middle line:84% My mother's side was a little better off. 00:04:37.190 --> 00:04:39.290 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But they all knew what labor was. 00:04:39.290 --> 00:04:40.998 align:middle line:84% They all knew what a hard day's work was. 00:04:40.998 --> 00:04:43.110 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And as a kid, I would spend vacations 00:04:43.110 --> 00:04:43.710 align:middle line:90% on the farm. 00:04:43.710 --> 00:04:44.470 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you got a chance to go there? 00:04:44.470 --> 00:04:45.130 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:04:45.130 --> 00:04:46.930 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He tested, so to speak. 00:04:46.930 --> 00:04:47.870 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: To test it, yeah. 00:04:47.870 --> 00:04:48.230 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He tested, you know. 00:04:48.230 --> 00:04:49.110 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Right. 00:04:49.110 --> 00:04:49.830 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:04:49.830 --> 00:04:51.788 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, what prompted your father 00:04:51.788 --> 00:04:53.450 align:middle line:84% to move to the Grand Rapids area? 00:04:53.450 --> 00:04:58.170 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, he went into World War I. 00:04:58.170 --> 00:05:02.130 align:middle line:84% And actually, being a veteran in World War 00:05:02.130 --> 00:05:06.130 align:middle line:84% I is how he became a citizen, a US citizen, because they gave 00:05:06.130 --> 00:05:09.610 align:middle line:84% citizenship to people who joined the military who were not 00:05:09.610 --> 00:05:10.350 align:middle line:90% citizens. 00:05:10.350 --> 00:05:12.110 align:middle line:84% So that's the way he became a citizen. 00:05:12.110 --> 00:05:15.010 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So what year was that that he would've gone in? 00:05:15.010 --> 00:05:16.150 align:middle line:90% He volunteered, no doubt? 00:05:16.150 --> 00:05:19.090 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was about a year, 00:05:19.090 --> 00:05:22.430 align:middle line:84% 6 to 12 months before the armistice, which was, what? 00:05:22.430 --> 00:05:22.975 align:middle line:90% 1917. 00:05:22.975 --> 00:05:23.850 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah. 00:05:23.850 --> 00:05:26.990 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Because he never saw battle. 00:05:26.990 --> 00:05:30.550 align:middle line:84% He sailed from New York Harbor on Armistice Day, 00:05:30.550 --> 00:05:31.960 align:middle line:90% November 11, 1917. 00:05:31.960 --> 00:05:33.710 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: His timing was impeccable. 00:05:33.710 --> 00:05:38.210 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And he spent a year in France, most of the time 00:05:38.210 --> 00:05:38.820 align:middle line:90% in Paris. 00:05:38.820 --> 00:05:40.070 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: How wonderful. 00:05:40.070 --> 00:05:41.910 align:middle line:84% So he had some good experiences from it. 00:05:41.910 --> 00:05:43.610 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: And he spent-- 00:05:43.610 --> 00:05:48.410 align:middle line:84% well, he was trained before going as a motor mechanic. 00:05:48.410 --> 00:05:50.840 align:middle line:84% But when he got there, they put him 00:05:50.840 --> 00:05:55.760 align:middle line:84% in into helping muster out soldiers to go home. 00:05:55.760 --> 00:05:57.720 align:middle line:84% So he never performed as a mechanic. 00:05:57.720 --> 00:05:59.600 align:middle line:84% And he never was in battle or something. 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:00.240 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He had the training. 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:01.780 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, he had the training. 00:06:01.780 --> 00:06:04.280 align:middle line:84% Actually, he went to training at the University of Michigan. 00:06:04.280 --> 00:06:06.420 align:middle line:84% They had camps at the University of Michigan, 00:06:06.420 --> 00:06:09.720 align:middle line:84% just like Georgia Tech did in those days. 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:13.980 align:middle line:84% And then, when he came home, he joined the Railway Mail Service, 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:17.160 align:middle line:84% which is a job that doesn't even exist anymore. 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.820 align:middle line:84% In those days, trains had mail cars on them. 00:06:20.820 --> 00:06:23.160 align:middle line:90% And men worked in the mail cars. 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.120 align:middle line:84% And they would go follow the train from city to city 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:27.780 align:middle line:90% and sort the mail on the train. 00:06:27.780 --> 00:06:28.320 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, really? 00:06:28.320 --> 00:06:30.000 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Throw the mail off in the little towns 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:30.860 align:middle line:90% as they went through. 00:06:30.860 --> 00:06:31.080 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I think I've seen 00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:33.280 align:middle line:84% that in movies or something, yeah, where they would-- 00:06:33.280 --> 00:06:33.920 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: They have an arm that 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:36.360 align:middle line:84% would catch a bag as they went by, pick up the mail. 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:37.160 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I can remember seeing it at the movies. 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:39.320 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So he spent something, like, 00:06:39.320 --> 00:06:40.890 align:middle line:84% 42 years as a railway mail clerk. 00:06:40.890 --> 00:06:42.640 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So he spent his whole life 00:06:42.640 --> 00:06:44.980 align:middle line:84% going on the railroad, back and forth, back and forth. 00:06:44.980 --> 00:06:48.270 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And with the job he started out in Detroit. 00:06:48.270 --> 00:06:50.310 align:middle line:90% Then they moved to Saginaw. 00:06:50.310 --> 00:06:51.830 align:middle line:84% And then they moved to Grand Rapids 00:06:51.830 --> 00:06:55.670 align:middle line:84% and spent the rest of the time, depended on what runs he was on. 00:06:55.670 --> 00:06:58.550 align:middle line:84% He was on Detroit to Chicago, and Detroit to Mackinac, 00:06:58.550 --> 00:07:00.290 align:middle line:90% and Grand Rapids to Chicago. 00:07:00.290 --> 00:07:01.665 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So it's almost as 00:07:01.665 --> 00:07:03.630 align:middle line:84% if he were a traveling salesman in the sense 00:07:03.630 --> 00:07:04.850 align:middle line:90% that he was gone a lot. 00:07:04.850 --> 00:07:06.683 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, at least when I was a kid, 00:07:06.683 --> 00:07:11.250 align:middle line:84% I remember the job was such that he worked double time one week. 00:07:11.250 --> 00:07:14.170 align:middle line:84% And then he had a week off, double time, then a week off, 00:07:14.170 --> 00:07:15.730 align:middle line:84% which was nice in the summertime. 00:07:15.730 --> 00:07:18.963 align:middle line:84% We would go out and camp on Lake Michigan all summer. 00:07:18.963 --> 00:07:20.630 align:middle line:84% And he would go away and work for a week 00:07:20.630 --> 00:07:22.713 align:middle line:84% and then come back out and spend the week with us. 00:07:22.713 --> 00:07:24.046 align:middle line:90% Yeah, it was a great experience. 00:07:24.046 --> 00:07:25.921 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: How many brothers and sisters 00:07:25.921 --> 00:07:26.510 align:middle line:90% did you have? 00:07:26.510 --> 00:07:27.510 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: One of each. 00:07:27.510 --> 00:07:29.490 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: One of each. and where were you in the lot? 00:07:29.490 --> 00:07:30.390 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Youngest. 00:07:30.390 --> 00:07:30.930 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Youngest. 00:07:30.930 --> 00:07:32.010 align:middle line:90% You were the baby boy. 00:07:32.010 --> 00:07:34.708 align:middle line:84% OK, so your older brother and older sister-- 00:07:34.708 --> 00:07:36.750 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: The older sister's is 10 years older. 00:07:36.750 --> 00:07:38.170 align:middle line:84% And the brother's seven years older. 00:07:38.170 --> 00:07:38.990 align:middle line:90% So it was kind of like-- 00:07:38.990 --> 00:07:39.810 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, quite a bit older. 00:07:39.810 --> 00:07:42.170 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Like having two sets of parents growing up. 00:07:42.170 --> 00:07:43.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, because they were probably 00:07:43.790 --> 00:07:45.520 align:middle line:84% told to mind you and keep an eye on and everything. 00:07:45.520 --> 00:07:46.145 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep 00:07:46.145 --> 00:07:48.900 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Do you remember when you started school? 00:07:48.900 --> 00:07:53.980 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, yeah, I went to Dickinson Elementary School 00:07:53.980 --> 00:07:55.420 align:middle line:90% in Grand Rapids. 00:07:55.420 --> 00:07:57.470 align:middle line:84% It was just about two or three blocks away. 00:07:57.470 --> 00:07:58.720 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: So you walked. 00:07:58.720 --> 00:07:58.980 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:07:58.980 --> 00:07:59.480 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah. 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:01.938 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I would think it was probably a happy thing 00:08:01.938 --> 00:08:03.180 align:middle line:90% for you because you didn't-- 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:03.420 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:08:03.420 --> 00:08:04.580 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Being the youngest one, 00:08:04.580 --> 00:08:07.240 align:middle line:84% you go meet lots of people that way, going to school. 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:09.093 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I made a good youth. 00:08:09.093 --> 00:08:10.760 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Were you a good student? 00:08:10.760 --> 00:08:12.600 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, yeah, Pretty good. 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:13.100 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:08:13.100 --> 00:08:14.546 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: You're laughing. 00:08:14.546 --> 00:08:15.046 align:middle line:90% Why? 00:08:15.046 --> 00:08:17.220 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, I jokingly tell people 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:22.140 align:middle line:84% that I began to get recognition when I was in the kindergarten. 00:08:22.140 --> 00:08:26.060 align:middle line:84% One day, the teacher pinned a 3-by-5 card on me with a gold 00:08:26.060 --> 00:08:27.680 align:middle line:90% star on it, had some writing. 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:29.348 align:middle line:90% Of course, I couldn't read. 00:08:29.348 --> 00:08:31.640 align:middle line:84% So I went home, and I said to my mother, what's it say? 00:08:31.640 --> 00:08:34.520 align:middle line:84% She says, you got a gold star for being a good rester. 00:08:34.520 --> 00:08:37.448 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:08:37.448 --> 00:08:39.240 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You had the ability to nap? 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:40.115 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 00:08:40.115 --> 00:08:42.539 align:middle line:84% I was good at napping, no problem, no problem at all. 00:08:42.539 --> 00:08:43.940 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's a great talent to have. 00:08:43.940 --> 00:08:45.980 align:middle line:84% Some people can't accomplish those things. 00:08:45.980 --> 00:08:48.733 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, back to my mother, 00:08:48.733 --> 00:08:49.900 align:middle line:90% I talked about my dad a lot. 00:08:49.900 --> 00:08:54.280 align:middle line:84% My mother, as I said, her dad was from Canada. 00:08:54.280 --> 00:08:56.200 align:middle line:90% And she grew up on a farm. 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:58.600 align:middle line:84% And actually, the way they met was my dad 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:01.380 align:middle line:84% was a hired hand on her father's farm. 00:09:01.380 --> 00:09:04.260 align:middle line:84% Now, he was seven years older than she was. 00:09:04.260 --> 00:09:08.653 align:middle line:84% And I don't know whether they dated before he 00:09:08.653 --> 00:09:09.820 align:middle line:90% went in the military or not. 00:09:09.820 --> 00:09:10.860 align:middle line:90% But when he came back-- 00:09:10.860 --> 00:09:11.160 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's when they married? 00:09:11.160 --> 00:09:14.260 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: They got married, yeah and my mother, 00:09:14.260 --> 00:09:18.680 align:middle line:84% the reason she had to drop out of school in the 11th grade, 00:09:18.680 --> 00:09:22.500 align:middle line:84% she was from a family of seven kids, actually. 00:09:22.500 --> 00:09:26.760 align:middle line:84% One died, I think, within six months. 00:09:26.760 --> 00:09:35.860 align:middle line:84% And one had some kind of physical problem. 00:09:35.860 --> 00:09:38.438 align:middle line:90% 00:09:38.438 --> 00:09:39.480 align:middle line:90% I'm not sure what it was. 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:40.320 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Just handicapped in some way. 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:42.362 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, he was handicapped in some way. 00:09:42.362 --> 00:09:45.070 align:middle line:90% And she was the oldest. 00:09:45.070 --> 00:09:48.090 align:middle line:90% And he lived until he was 12. 00:09:48.090 --> 00:09:49.710 align:middle line:90% And then he died. 00:09:49.710 --> 00:09:54.990 align:middle line:84% And her father said, we got to do something different 00:09:54.990 --> 00:09:58.330 align:middle line:84% because of the trauma the family went through just raising him 00:09:58.330 --> 00:09:59.690 align:middle line:90% and then when he died. 00:09:59.690 --> 00:10:06.990 align:middle line:84% And so he organized himself and, I think, two other families. 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:08.910 align:middle line:90% This is now-- 00:10:08.910 --> 00:10:15.230 align:middle line:84% I think we're talking 1917 maybe. 00:10:15.230 --> 00:10:17.550 align:middle line:84% He organized three farm families. 00:10:17.550 --> 00:10:19.770 align:middle line:84% They rented out their farm for the year. 00:10:19.770 --> 00:10:24.570 align:middle line:84% They bought five cars and drove them all to California, 00:10:24.570 --> 00:10:25.528 align:middle line:90% to Southern California. 00:10:25.528 --> 00:10:26.903 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: For an adventure? 00:10:26.903 --> 00:10:29.330 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, it took them two weeks or so to drive. 00:10:29.330 --> 00:10:31.790 align:middle line:84% And I've got a copy of their diary from the trip. 00:10:31.790 --> 00:10:32.430 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, how interesting. 00:10:32.430 --> 00:10:34.388 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: My one uncle, who was 12 years old, 00:10:34.388 --> 00:10:36.210 align:middle line:84% drove one of the cars all the way out. 00:10:36.210 --> 00:10:37.747 align:middle line:90% And they camped. 00:10:37.747 --> 00:10:38.830 align:middle line:90% They camped along the way. 00:10:38.830 --> 00:10:41.060 align:middle line:84% And then I don't what the-- well, then 00:10:41.060 --> 00:10:44.540 align:middle line:84% they sold the cars when they got there for income. 00:10:44.540 --> 00:10:49.420 align:middle line:84% And my grandfather worked as a carpenter for a year, 00:10:49.420 --> 00:10:52.040 align:middle line:84% building homes in Long Beach along the beach. 00:10:52.040 --> 00:10:54.018 align:middle line:84% That was when that was being developed. 00:10:54.018 --> 00:10:55.560 align:middle line:84% I don't know what the other guys did. 00:10:55.560 --> 00:10:59.920 align:middle line:84% But my mother's brothers and sisters, 00:10:59.920 --> 00:11:01.788 align:middle line:90% there were five that survived. 00:11:01.788 --> 00:11:04.080 align:middle line:84% So there were five that actually lived to be quite old, 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:05.500 align:middle line:90% all of them. 00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:06.920 align:middle line:90% The others went to school. 00:11:06.920 --> 00:11:09.580 align:middle line:84% My mother went to work in a Ford dealership 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:12.260 align:middle line:84% as a telephone operator out there. 00:11:12.260 --> 00:11:16.820 align:middle line:84% And my grandfather told her she had to save her money up 00:11:16.820 --> 00:11:20.400 align:middle line:84% to pay for her way home because they stayed there for a year. 00:11:20.400 --> 00:11:24.140 align:middle line:84% And then they took the train back to Michigan 00:11:24.140 --> 00:11:25.920 align:middle line:90% and took over their farm again. 00:11:25.920 --> 00:11:28.260 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: How could they make themselves come back 00:11:28.260 --> 00:11:29.408 align:middle line:90% after being in California? 00:11:29.408 --> 00:11:31.200 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, they still own the farms. 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:32.120 align:middle line:90% They still owned farms. 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:33.440 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's an amazing story. 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:33.880 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: It was, yeah. 00:11:33.880 --> 00:11:34.780 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What an adventurer he was. 00:11:34.780 --> 00:11:37.060 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was quite an adventure in 1916 or '17 00:11:37.060 --> 00:11:37.680 align:middle line:90% or whatever it was. 00:11:37.680 --> 00:11:38.360 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: For him to even have come up 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:41.060 align:middle line:84% with the concept of something like that is amazing. 00:11:41.060 --> 00:11:41.560 align:middle line:90% Wow. 00:11:41.560 --> 00:11:44.253 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So, anyway, but the interesting thing about her 00:11:44.253 --> 00:11:46.420 align:middle line:84% dropping out of school, she always wanted to finish. 00:11:46.420 --> 00:11:48.840 align:middle line:84% She always wanted to have a high school diploma. 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:53.960 align:middle line:84% And when she was about 72 or 73, she went back and got a GED. 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:54.960 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Did she? 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:55.780 align:middle line:90% Oh, God love her. 00:11:55.780 --> 00:11:56.700 align:middle line:90% Isn't that wonderful? 00:11:56.700 --> 00:11:58.660 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I've got a picture of her in her cap and gown, 00:11:58.660 --> 00:12:00.200 align:middle line:90% graduating from high school. 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:01.460 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: She would set the example for all to follow. 00:12:01.460 --> 00:12:02.168 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:12:02.168 --> 00:12:03.702 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: That's amazing. 00:12:03.702 --> 00:12:05.160 align:middle line:84% She dropped out of school, probably 00:12:05.160 --> 00:12:06.497 align:middle line:90% for financial necessity. 00:12:06.497 --> 00:12:08.580 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Because the family went to California. 00:12:08.580 --> 00:12:11.040 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So there was no coming back after that. 00:12:11.040 --> 00:12:14.000 align:middle line:84% And then she married your dad not too long after that time. 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.480 align:middle line:90% But he had been to France. 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:17.740 align:middle line:90% And she'd been to California. 00:12:17.740 --> 00:12:19.760 align:middle line:84% They were, for the times, rather accomplished. 00:12:19.760 --> 00:12:21.677 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, my mother enjoyed traveling, 00:12:21.677 --> 00:12:22.720 align:middle line:90% which I do too. 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.680 align:middle line:84% But it was an interesting story about my grandfather, 00:12:26.680 --> 00:12:28.440 align:middle line:90% my mother's father. 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:32.720 align:middle line:84% He also came from Canada and also came over. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.750 align:middle line:84% I suppose you would call it illegally these days. 00:12:35.750 --> 00:12:39.690 align:middle line:84% And he was a pretty prominent citizen in the community. 00:12:39.690 --> 00:12:41.790 align:middle line:90% He ran for the school board. 00:12:41.790 --> 00:12:44.290 align:middle line:84% And he was on the school board and head of the school board. 00:12:44.290 --> 00:12:46.910 align:middle line:84% And he was a county commissioner and whatnot. 00:12:46.910 --> 00:12:51.230 align:middle line:84% And he'd been doing this for, I don't know, quite a few years. 00:12:51.230 --> 00:12:53.510 align:middle line:84% And his opponent in one of the elections 00:12:53.510 --> 00:12:55.270 align:middle line:84% found out he wasn't even a US citizen 00:12:55.270 --> 00:12:57.590 align:middle line:84% and shouldn't have been in any of those jobs. 00:12:57.590 --> 00:12:59.923 align:middle line:84% And so he used it against him in an election. 00:12:59.923 --> 00:13:01.090 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Smears, huh? 00:13:01.090 --> 00:13:03.510 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I think my grandfather still 00:13:03.510 --> 00:13:04.370 align:middle line:90% won the election. 00:13:04.370 --> 00:13:06.527 align:middle line:84% But he then decided he'd better become a citizen. 00:13:06.527 --> 00:13:08.610 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So he went through the ropes, huh? 00:13:08.610 --> 00:13:09.270 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:13:09.270 --> 00:13:09.910 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, my. 00:13:09.910 --> 00:13:11.190 align:middle line:90% Yeah, things were different. 00:13:11.190 --> 00:13:13.122 align:middle line:84% There wasn't all that research available. 00:13:13.122 --> 00:13:14.830 align:middle line:84% So you could probably get away with that. 00:13:14.830 --> 00:13:16.288 align:middle line:84% I mean, I know people would assume. 00:13:16.288 --> 00:13:19.510 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So my parents, shortly after they got married, 00:13:19.510 --> 00:13:23.710 align:middle line:84% they moved to Detroit in a suburb. 00:13:23.710 --> 00:13:24.890 align:middle line:90% If I heard it, I'd know it. 00:13:24.890 --> 00:13:30.670 align:middle line:84% And I think they got married in 1923. 00:13:30.670 --> 00:13:34.500 align:middle line:84% And when the depression came, they lost the house 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:39.020 align:middle line:84% and then moved to Saginaw, where they also had a house, then 00:13:39.020 --> 00:13:40.240 align:middle line:90% later moved to Grand Rapids. 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:41.000 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But they never farmed? 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:41.840 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No, no. 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:44.132 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: As a husband or wife, they didn't farm? 00:13:44.132 --> 00:13:46.292 align:middle line:84% So that was a transition from agriculture 00:13:46.292 --> 00:13:47.500 align:middle line:90% into some other kind of life. 00:13:47.500 --> 00:13:48.285 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Right. 00:13:48.285 --> 00:13:49.660 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did your dad ever 00:13:49.660 --> 00:13:52.560 align:middle line:84% discuss with you how he happened to latch on to the railway, 00:13:52.560 --> 00:13:53.740 align:middle line:90% the mail railway? 00:13:53.740 --> 00:13:55.740 align:middle line:84% Because that's kind of an interesting profession 00:13:55.740 --> 00:13:56.560 align:middle line:90% that he took in to. 00:13:56.560 --> 00:13:57.602 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: I don't know. 00:13:57.602 --> 00:14:00.100 align:middle line:90% He may have. 00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:00.980 align:middle line:90% But I don't recall. 00:14:00.980 --> 00:14:02.480 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Talk about living your life on the rails. 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:04.320 align:middle line:84% That's really something that he did that. 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:05.820 align:middle line:84% But once he got to Grand Rapids, he 00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:09.500 align:middle line:84% could stay put, then, and just travel from there. 00:14:09.500 --> 00:14:11.940 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I think they moved there probably 00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:15.380 align:middle line:84% two or three years before I was born, something in that range. 00:14:15.380 --> 00:14:19.360 align:middle line:84% My brother was born in Saginaw, I think. 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:21.440 align:middle line:84% And I think my sister was born in Detroit. 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:22.220 align:middle line:90% But I'm not sure. 00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:24.100 align:middle line:84% She may've been born in Saginaw also. 00:14:24.100 --> 00:14:26.460 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: You were lucky. 00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:27.920 align:middle line:90% You got born in Grand Rapids. 00:14:27.920 --> 00:14:29.772 align:middle line:84% It's much nicer than Detroit or Saginaw. 00:14:29.772 --> 00:14:30.480 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:32.355 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Really, really nice community 00:14:32.355 --> 00:14:34.920 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But my brother and sister both still live there. 00:14:34.920 --> 00:14:35.780 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: In Grand Rapids? 00:14:35.780 --> 00:14:36.060 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, 00:14:36.060 --> 00:14:37.000 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, see, they knew a good thing 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:38.400 align:middle line:90% when they found it. 00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:41.440 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: My brother's, well, some of his kids 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.860 align:middle line:84% are in Grand Rapids, and some are moved away. 00:14:43.860 --> 00:14:45.700 align:middle line:84% My sister's kids both moved away. 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:47.885 align:middle line:90% But they're still there. 00:14:47.885 --> 00:14:49.760 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's a nice, little community 00:14:49.760 --> 00:14:51.940 align:middle line:84% because it's not just automobiles. 00:14:51.940 --> 00:14:53.140 align:middle line:90% It's lots of things. 00:14:53.140 --> 00:14:56.540 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah, furniture is big. 00:14:56.540 --> 00:14:57.420 align:middle line:90% It's a nice town. 00:14:57.420 --> 00:14:58.000 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: In fact, at the time 00:14:58.000 --> 00:14:59.700 align:middle line:84% that your parents moved there, that's what it was 00:14:59.700 --> 00:15:00.100 align:middle line:90% was a furniture industry. 00:15:00.100 --> 00:15:01.900 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Furniture was a big deal, right. 00:15:01.900 --> 00:15:03.650 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, the furniture there. 00:15:03.650 --> 00:15:04.920 align:middle line:90% It's a beautiful city, too. 00:15:04.920 --> 00:15:05.320 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.112 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: They had good city planners 00:15:07.112 --> 00:15:08.600 align:middle line:90% because it is a beautiful city. 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:10.720 align:middle line:84% So little Ward goes off to school. 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:12.972 align:middle line:84% And he excels in napping right off the bat. 00:15:12.972 --> 00:15:13.680 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:15:13.680 --> 00:15:14.560 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But then he must've 00:15:14.560 --> 00:15:16.180 align:middle line:90% have gone on to other things. 00:15:16.180 --> 00:15:18.040 align:middle line:84% So do you remember the transition 00:15:18.040 --> 00:15:21.300 align:middle line:84% from elementary school into, what, junior high 00:15:21.300 --> 00:15:22.260 align:middle line:90% or middle school? 00:15:22.260 --> 00:15:24.540 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, junior high, they called it then. 00:15:24.540 --> 00:15:26.400 align:middle line:84% It was Burton Junior High School, which 00:15:26.400 --> 00:15:28.700 align:middle line:90% was probably about a mile away. 00:15:28.700 --> 00:15:31.270 align:middle line:84% I went there for seventh, eighth, and ninth grade, 00:15:31.270 --> 00:15:36.230 align:middle line:84% and then to South High School for 10, 11, and 12, graduated 00:15:36.230 --> 00:15:37.480 align:middle line:90% from South High School. 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:39.730 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What were your interests at that time, 00:15:39.730 --> 00:15:41.810 align:middle line:90% band, sports? 00:15:41.810 --> 00:15:46.950 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, I played in grade school only. 00:15:46.950 --> 00:15:49.310 align:middle line:90% I played a tuba and sousaphone. 00:15:49.310 --> 00:15:51.770 align:middle line:84% But I never followed it up after that. 00:15:51.770 --> 00:15:52.470 align:middle line:90% I should've. 00:15:52.470 --> 00:15:53.190 align:middle line:90% I wish I had. 00:15:53.190 --> 00:15:55.023 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You wish you had because you 00:15:55.023 --> 00:15:56.070 align:middle line:90% have an ear for music. 00:15:56.070 --> 00:15:57.630 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: And, oh-- 00:15:57.630 --> 00:15:58.510 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I don't know how far you'd 00:15:58.510 --> 00:15:59.690 align:middle line:90% have got on the sousaphone. 00:15:59.690 --> 00:16:04.590 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, it's not exactly your hot item. 00:16:04.590 --> 00:16:10.310 align:middle line:84% When I was about 12, I don't know, 11 or 12, I got a paper 00:16:10.310 --> 00:16:12.770 align:middle line:90% route, a morning paper route. 00:16:12.770 --> 00:16:16.030 align:middle line:84% So I delivered morning papers for several years. 00:16:16.030 --> 00:16:21.290 align:middle line:84% And when I was probably 14 or 15, 00:16:21.290 --> 00:16:24.530 align:middle line:84% I started working in a gas station garage. 00:16:24.530 --> 00:16:26.530 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So your family had a work ethic. 00:16:26.530 --> 00:16:28.723 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah, yeah, everybody worked. 00:16:28.723 --> 00:16:30.140 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, and the idea 00:16:30.140 --> 00:16:32.753 align:middle line:84% was going to be that had to pitch in? 00:16:32.753 --> 00:16:34.920 align:middle line:84% Or were you allowed to keep your money for your own? 00:16:34.920 --> 00:16:35.780 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No, I kept it. 00:16:35.780 --> 00:16:37.460 align:middle line:84% No, my dad was pretty serious about that 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:40.220 align:middle line:84% since his dad took it away from him. 00:16:40.220 --> 00:16:41.322 align:middle line:90% He wouldn't do that. 00:16:41.322 --> 00:16:42.780 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He didn't make you. 00:16:42.780 --> 00:16:43.840 align:middle line:90% So you learned the value. 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:45.882 align:middle line:84% If you want something, you earn the money for it. 00:16:45.882 --> 00:16:46.940 align:middle line:90% And you got it. 00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:54.300 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And, well, probably the only significant thing 00:16:54.300 --> 00:16:57.140 align:middle line:84% about those years, when I was in high school, 00:16:57.140 --> 00:17:00.140 align:middle line:84% between my junior and senior year, a friend of mine 00:17:00.140 --> 00:17:06.140 align:middle line:84% and I, a guy named Kurt Richter, drove a new car to Alaska 00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:06.920 align:middle line:90% from Detroit. 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:08.619 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you had a little bit of your grandfather's 00:17:08.619 --> 00:17:09.880 align:middle line:90% adventure genes. 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:10.797 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Well, we-- 00:17:10.797 --> 00:17:12.540 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You were how old, 17? 00:17:12.540 --> 00:17:14.420 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I think-- no, let me see. 00:17:14.420 --> 00:17:17.020 align:middle line:84% It was summer of '53, so I must've 00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:18.307 align:middle line:90% been-- what would that be? 00:17:18.307 --> 00:17:19.099 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: 17. 00:17:19.099 --> 00:17:19.760 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: 17. 00:17:19.760 --> 00:17:22.922 align:middle line:84% Well, actually, I was 16 when I left home, the drive up there. 00:17:22.922 --> 00:17:24.339 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And nobody thought 00:17:24.339 --> 00:17:26.938 align:middle line:84% that that was kind of young to head off across the country? 00:17:26.938 --> 00:17:28.480 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, nobody that I knew. 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:29.920 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Your parents didn't mind? 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:31.640 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, actually, I drove it up 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:34.000 align:middle line:90% for a friend of theirs. 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:37.600 align:middle line:84% They had a-- guy was a Presbyterian minister who 00:17:37.600 --> 00:17:38.800 align:middle line:90% was a friend of theirs. 00:17:38.800 --> 00:17:41.360 align:middle line:84% He had been a minister in Grand Rapids. 00:17:41.360 --> 00:17:42.820 align:middle line:90% And they were good friends. 00:17:42.820 --> 00:17:44.140 align:middle line:90% They were about the same age. 00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:49.080 align:middle line:84% And he first moved to Minneapolis and then to Alaska. 00:17:49.080 --> 00:17:52.240 align:middle line:84% And the summer before, the summer of '52, he 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:57.140 align:middle line:84% came back to the lower 48 States and did some visiting. 00:17:57.140 --> 00:17:59.120 align:middle line:90% And he stopped at our house. 00:17:59.120 --> 00:18:01.000 align:middle line:90% And one evening we were talking. 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:04.200 align:middle line:84% And I said, I'd like to go to Alaska. 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:07.560 align:middle line:84% I'm, what, at that time, 15, something like that, I guess. 00:18:07.560 --> 00:18:10.460 align:middle line:84% And he said, well, I want to buy a new car next year. 00:18:10.460 --> 00:18:11.980 align:middle line:84% Maybe you could drive it up for me. 00:18:11.980 --> 00:18:12.260 align:middle line:90% I said-- 00:18:12.260 --> 00:18:13.880 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: A brand-new car you got to drive? 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:14.680 align:middle line:90% Wow. 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.280 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: In those days, when you bought a new car, 00:18:18.280 --> 00:18:23.160 align:middle line:84% you had to pay the delivery cost from the factory 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:24.730 align:middle line:90% to where you picked it up. 00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:29.070 align:middle line:84% Today, they average it out, everybody. 00:18:29.070 --> 00:18:30.930 align:middle line:84% So it's not such a big deal anymore. 00:18:30.930 --> 00:18:33.030 align:middle line:84% But in those days, the cost of getting 00:18:33.030 --> 00:18:35.990 align:middle line:84% a new car delivered in Alaska was almost as much 00:18:35.990 --> 00:18:37.072 align:middle line:90% as the cost of the car. 00:18:37.072 --> 00:18:39.030 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, so he was ahead of the game 00:18:39.030 --> 00:18:39.830 align:middle line:90% to have you do that 00:18:39.830 --> 00:18:43.023 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, so I said, jeez, I'd love to do it. 00:18:43.023 --> 00:18:45.190 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So he was happy to pay for your gas? 00:18:45.190 --> 00:18:46.607 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: My parents were there. 00:18:46.607 --> 00:18:47.490 align:middle line:90% And they said yeah. 00:18:47.490 --> 00:18:48.323 align:middle line:90% It was OK with them. 00:18:48.323 --> 00:18:49.657 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Isn't that neat? 00:18:49.657 --> 00:18:51.430 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So he bought a new Plymouth 00:18:51.430 --> 00:18:56.030 align:middle line:84% from a dealer in Anchorage and sent the paperwork to me. 00:18:56.030 --> 00:18:58.970 align:middle line:84% And my friend and I hitchhiked to Detroit, 00:18:58.970 --> 00:19:01.570 align:middle line:84% to the Plymouth factory, and showed him the paperwork. 00:19:01.570 --> 00:19:04.615 align:middle line:84% And he picked up the new car and drove it up. 00:19:04.615 --> 00:19:06.490 align:middle line:84% Well, we drove it home to Grand Rapids first. 00:19:06.490 --> 00:19:10.610 align:middle line:84% And he had given us a long list of things to bring with it. 00:19:10.610 --> 00:19:14.830 align:middle line:84% We had to get new brake sets and some new oil filters and gas 00:19:14.830 --> 00:19:15.370 align:middle line:90% filters. 00:19:15.370 --> 00:19:16.110 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He was thinking ahead 00:19:16.110 --> 00:19:18.610 align:middle line:84% because those things would not be available to him up there. 00:19:18.610 --> 00:19:21.430 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And he also gave us instructions on, 00:19:21.430 --> 00:19:25.770 align:middle line:84% once we got to gravel roads, how to cover up all the chrome 00:19:25.770 --> 00:19:27.020 align:middle line:90% in the lower parts of the car. 00:19:27.020 --> 00:19:28.645 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I think it [INAUDIBLE]. 00:19:28.645 --> 00:19:31.926 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, heavy paper. 00:19:31.926 --> 00:19:34.260 align:middle line:90% You know, the packing paper. 00:19:34.260 --> 00:19:37.820 align:middle line:84% And so we got all that stuff and took off and drove. 00:19:37.820 --> 00:19:40.200 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That was the days before Google map, too. 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:41.867 align:middle line:84% So you had to know where you were going. 00:19:41.867 --> 00:19:46.400 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it was 5,200 miles from Detroit to Anchorage. 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:48.513 align:middle line:84% And over half of it was gravel road. 00:19:48.513 --> 00:19:49.680 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, my word. 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:52.406 align:middle line:84% So that was a real concern about getting a car all dinged up, 00:19:52.406 --> 00:19:52.906 align:middle line:90% then, huh? 00:19:52.906 --> 00:19:53.700 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:56.120 align:middle line:84% And we managed to go through Yellowstone, 00:19:56.120 --> 00:19:58.483 align:middle line:90% spend a couple of days there. 00:19:58.483 --> 00:20:00.400 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you got to see the country. 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:01.460 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was great. 00:20:01.460 --> 00:20:03.160 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What a great adventure you had. 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:04.960 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Then we worked up there all summer. 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:05.540 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What a different world 00:20:05.540 --> 00:20:07.183 align:middle line:84% it was, too, that you could do that. 00:20:07.183 --> 00:20:09.100 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it was very, very expensive. 00:20:09.100 --> 00:20:10.280 align:middle line:90% And it wasn't a state. 00:20:10.280 --> 00:20:11.640 align:middle line:90% But it was very, very expensive. 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:17.920 align:middle line:84% And it was my first big lesson in economics 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:22.282 align:middle line:84% because, when we were talking to him the summer before in '52, 00:20:22.282 --> 00:20:24.740 align:middle line:84% he was talking about how much money he could make up there. 00:20:24.740 --> 00:20:26.660 align:middle line:90% Labor has got really high pay. 00:20:26.660 --> 00:20:30.442 align:middle line:84% I mean, 1952, you'd make about $14, $15 an hour 00:20:30.442 --> 00:20:31.400 align:middle line:90% or something like that. 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:31.960 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you were going to get rich. 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:34.085 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So we were going to go up and get rich. 00:20:34.085 --> 00:20:38.540 align:middle line:84% But not paying attention to politics and things, 00:20:38.540 --> 00:20:41.740 align:middle line:84% we missed the fact that, in the fall of '52, 00:20:41.740 --> 00:20:44.080 align:middle line:90% Dwight Eisenhower was elected. 00:20:44.080 --> 00:20:49.480 align:middle line:84% And he came in making lots of economic slashes. 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.240 align:middle line:84% And one of the big slashes was money 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.800 align:middle line:84% going to the army, which ran Alaska at the time. 00:20:55.800 --> 00:20:58.800 align:middle line:84% And so there was just an incredible number 00:20:58.800 --> 00:21:00.940 align:middle line:84% of people unemployed in Alaska at the time. 00:21:00.940 --> 00:21:01.898 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Really? 00:21:01.898 --> 00:21:04.360 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: My recollection is the numbers were something, 00:21:04.360 --> 00:21:08.180 align:middle line:84% like, that Anchorage had 50,000 people in the wintertime. 00:21:08.180 --> 00:21:11.720 align:middle line:84% And in the summer, another 100 showed up for jobs. 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:13.300 align:middle line:84% And they were almost all unemployed. 00:21:13.300 --> 00:21:15.675 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, what did you guys find to do, then? 00:21:15.675 --> 00:21:19.630 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, we lived in the garage of this Presbyterian 00:21:19.630 --> 00:21:21.090 align:middle line:84% minister we drove the car up for. 00:21:21.090 --> 00:21:25.550 align:middle line:84% And he had lots of connections, obviously. 00:21:25.550 --> 00:21:28.210 align:middle line:84% So he managed to get us in the Longshoremen's Union. 00:21:28.210 --> 00:21:30.850 align:middle line:90% So we were longshoremen members. 00:21:30.850 --> 00:21:33.790 align:middle line:84% And once a week, we would go to the Longshoremen's Hall 00:21:33.790 --> 00:21:35.290 align:middle line:90% for the call for jobs. 00:21:35.290 --> 00:21:40.190 align:middle line:84% We got one night's job that way and for about a month. 00:21:40.190 --> 00:21:42.270 align:middle line:84% But it was one night loading ammunition 00:21:42.270 --> 00:21:44.270 align:middle line:90% on barges for the army. 00:21:44.270 --> 00:21:47.810 align:middle line:84% And I think we made something, like, $16 an hour doing it, 00:21:47.810 --> 00:21:49.710 align:middle line:90% which was pretty damn good. 00:21:49.710 --> 00:21:56.630 align:middle line:84% And then, later, we got a job as working in a salmon cannery, 00:21:56.630 --> 00:21:59.785 align:middle line:84% unloading salmon off of ships that came in. 00:21:59.785 --> 00:22:01.410 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: The fish itself, right? 00:22:01.410 --> 00:22:05.230 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And that was pretty interesting. 00:22:05.230 --> 00:22:08.990 align:middle line:84% They had a policy where I think we were getting, 00:22:08.990 --> 00:22:11.850 align:middle line:90% like, $8 an hour base. 00:22:11.850 --> 00:22:12.450 align:middle line:90% I'm not sure. 00:22:12.450 --> 00:22:18.360 align:middle line:84% But if you stayed in that job unloading fish off the boats, 00:22:18.360 --> 00:22:19.318 align:middle line:90% which was a dirty job-- 00:22:19.318 --> 00:22:20.693 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, my gosh, yes. 00:22:20.693 --> 00:22:23.340 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: If you stayed until the end of the season, which 00:22:23.340 --> 00:22:26.220 align:middle line:84% was only three more weeks or something like that, 00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:28.800 align:middle line:84% they would give you a bonus equal to what you had earned. 00:22:28.800 --> 00:22:30.020 align:middle line:90% So you doubled your-- 00:22:30.020 --> 00:22:30.400 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Wow. 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:31.280 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: --doubled your take. 00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:32.440 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's a good incentive. 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:34.540 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: [CHUCKLES] And it turned out 00:22:34.540 --> 00:22:36.900 align:middle line:84% we were the only ones who managed to do it 00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:38.900 align:middle line:84% because the other people that were doing the job 00:22:38.900 --> 00:22:40.603 align:middle line:84% were typically winos or something. 00:22:40.603 --> 00:22:42.520 align:middle line:84% They'd get their money at the end of the week. 00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:46.380 align:middle line:84% And they'd go off and hang on a drunk and not come back. 00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:51.440 align:middle line:84% But you'd put on waders that'd go up under your armpits. 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:53.020 align:middle line:90% And you get a pitchfork. 00:22:53.020 --> 00:22:54.340 align:middle line:90% And you jump in the ship. 00:22:54.340 --> 00:22:57.440 align:middle line:84% And you just sink into about your waist and fish. 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.630 align:middle line:84% And you're loading them in a barrel until the ship is empty. 00:23:00.630 --> 00:23:02.880 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Must smell really wonderful, too, huh? 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.000 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: It was nasty. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:04.820 align:middle line:90% But it paid good. 00:23:04.820 --> 00:23:06.780 align:middle line:84% And it was the only job we could get. 00:23:06.780 --> 00:23:10.040 align:middle line:84% After that was over with, we managed to work, 00:23:10.040 --> 00:23:14.610 align:middle line:84% I don't know, two or three weeks for a landscape architect, 00:23:14.610 --> 00:23:17.370 align:middle line:84% putting fences in and doing landscaping 00:23:17.370 --> 00:23:18.890 align:middle line:90% and that sort of thing. 00:23:18.890 --> 00:23:22.470 align:middle line:84% Over Labor Day, we had saved up enough money. 00:23:22.470 --> 00:23:26.410 align:middle line:90% We flew up to Kotzebue and Nome. 00:23:26.410 --> 00:23:27.590 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: You flew up? 00:23:27.590 --> 00:23:28.710 align:middle line:90% Wow, I'm impressed. 00:23:28.710 --> 00:23:32.490 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it was a regular flight, spent, 00:23:32.490 --> 00:23:37.170 align:middle line:84% I don't know, two or three days up there in Nome and Kotzebue, 00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:38.470 align:middle line:90% and then flew back. 00:23:38.470 --> 00:23:41.770 align:middle line:84% And at the end after Labor Day, we 00:23:41.770 --> 00:23:44.850 align:middle line:84% missed the first two weeks of class in the fall term 00:23:44.850 --> 00:23:46.870 align:middle line:84% because it was cheaper to come home after that. 00:23:46.870 --> 00:23:48.630 align:middle line:84% I mean, if you're up there, it's being on an island. 00:23:48.630 --> 00:23:49.410 align:middle line:90% You either got to fly out. 00:23:49.410 --> 00:23:50.430 align:middle line:90% Or you got to drive out. 00:23:50.430 --> 00:23:52.450 align:middle line:84% Or you've got to take a boat out. 00:23:52.450 --> 00:23:56.090 align:middle line:84% And we saved up enough money to take the boat back from Valdez 00:23:56.090 --> 00:23:57.290 align:middle line:90% to Seattle. 00:23:57.290 --> 00:23:59.390 align:middle line:90% And by waiting until after-- 00:23:59.390 --> 00:24:00.610 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: The season. 00:24:00.610 --> 00:24:01.985 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: After a season, yeah, 00:24:01.985 --> 00:24:04.670 align:middle line:84% it stopped at seven different stops along the way. 00:24:04.670 --> 00:24:08.850 align:middle line:84% So we got to see a lot of inland passage and stuff. 00:24:08.850 --> 00:24:11.150 align:middle line:84% And then we hitchhiked home from Seattle. 00:24:11.150 --> 00:24:12.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I was going to ask you how you home. 00:24:12.210 --> 00:24:12.510 align:middle line:90% You hitchhiked home. 00:24:12.510 --> 00:24:14.850 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, hitchhiked home, made it in three days. 00:24:14.850 --> 00:24:15.030 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Just isn't done. 00:24:15.030 --> 00:24:16.697 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, you don't do it anymore. 00:24:16.697 --> 00:24:18.470 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That isn't done, no. 00:24:18.470 --> 00:24:20.220 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Actually, it went pretty fast. 00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:22.627 align:middle line:84% We met some people on the boat who had a car. 00:24:22.627 --> 00:24:24.210 align:middle line:84% And they were going to Salt Lake City. 00:24:24.210 --> 00:24:27.070 align:middle line:84% So they gave us a ride to Salt Lake City. 00:24:27.070 --> 00:24:29.860 align:middle line:84% Everything went well until we got to, 00:24:29.860 --> 00:24:31.810 align:middle line:90% I think it was, Iowa someplace. 00:24:31.810 --> 00:24:37.610 align:middle line:84% And a guy dropped us off on the corner out in the farm area, 00:24:37.610 --> 00:24:38.770 align:middle line:90% no buildings around. 00:24:38.770 --> 00:24:39.530 align:middle line:90% And we hitchhiked. 00:24:39.530 --> 00:24:40.870 align:middle line:90% We were there about three hours. 00:24:40.870 --> 00:24:43.070 align:middle line:84% And a state policeman came along. 00:24:43.070 --> 00:24:43.712 align:middle line:90% And he stopped. 00:24:43.712 --> 00:24:45.170 align:middle line:84% And he asked us what we were doing. 00:24:45.170 --> 00:24:48.170 align:middle line:84% We told him, trying to get to Michigan. 00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:49.590 align:middle line:84% And he said, well, nobody's going 00:24:49.590 --> 00:24:51.048 align:middle line:84% to pick you up here because there's 00:24:51.048 --> 00:24:52.890 align:middle line:90% a prison about five miles away. 00:24:52.890 --> 00:24:53.510 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, my goodness. 00:24:53.510 --> 00:24:55.090 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And there was a breakout last night. 00:24:55.090 --> 00:24:57.330 align:middle line:84% And so there's all kinds of announcements on the radio, 00:24:57.330 --> 00:24:58.450 align:middle line:90% don't pick up hitchhikers. 00:24:58.450 --> 00:24:59.910 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, isn't that wonderful, huh? 00:24:59.910 --> 00:25:01.250 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: He said, get in. 00:25:01.250 --> 00:25:03.015 align:middle line:90% I'll drive you to Des Moines. 00:25:03.015 --> 00:25:04.390 align:middle line:84% Then you can get a bus from there 00:25:04.390 --> 00:25:06.473 align:middle line:84% and take it away and then start hitchhiking again. 00:25:06.473 --> 00:25:10.010 align:middle line:84% So he drove us to Des Moines to the bus station, about 50 miles. 00:25:10.010 --> 00:25:10.700 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:25:10.700 --> 00:25:11.980 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That was really nice of him to do. 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:13.440 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But we made it home in three days, 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:13.780 align:middle line:90% which was pretty good. 00:25:13.780 --> 00:25:15.488 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's pretty remarkable. 00:25:15.488 --> 00:25:17.390 align:middle line:84% And, boy, did you guys see a lot of stuff. 00:25:17.390 --> 00:25:18.640 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was good. 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:19.600 align:middle line:90% It was a great experience. 00:25:19.600 --> 00:25:20.880 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, great experience. 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:23.440 align:middle line:84% And that was before your junior year or before your senior year? 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:24.440 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Between junior and senior year. 00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:25.857 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Junior and senior. 00:25:25.857 --> 00:25:27.200 align:middle line:90% Oh, that's just amazing. 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:29.740 align:middle line:84% And I think, back in the day, back in those days, 00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:32.215 align:middle line:84% you were much more mature for your age than a typical-- 00:25:32.215 --> 00:25:33.340 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, probably. 00:25:33.340 --> 00:25:35.215 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: --17-year-old today would be. 00:25:35.215 --> 00:25:38.580 align:middle line:84% I mean, let's face it, no 17-year-old today would be 00:25:38.580 --> 00:25:39.680 align:middle line:90% pitchforking fish. 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:40.980 align:middle line:90% That's for sure. 00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:43.100 align:middle line:84% They'd ask you if you were on your mind, huh? 00:25:43.100 --> 00:25:45.860 align:middle line:84% What a wonderful experience for you and your friend too. 00:25:45.860 --> 00:25:47.360 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I had a good time. 00:25:47.360 --> 00:25:48.240 align:middle line:90% We had a good time. 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:49.615 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Where in the game 00:25:49.615 --> 00:25:52.320 align:middle line:84% did you decide you were going to college? 00:25:52.320 --> 00:25:54.920 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, probably, I'm not sure, 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:58.020 align:middle line:84% sometime during high school, probably 00:25:58.020 --> 00:26:02.180 align:middle line:84% because of just competition between my brother 00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:03.760 align:middle line:90% and I. He had gone to college. 00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:04.740 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Where had he gone? 00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:07.073 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, he went to Grand Rapids Junior College 00:26:07.073 --> 00:26:09.010 align:middle line:90% first, which is what I did. 00:26:09.010 --> 00:26:10.650 align:middle line:84% And then he went to Michigan State 00:26:10.650 --> 00:26:14.210 align:middle line:84% and got a degree in civil engineering. 00:26:14.210 --> 00:26:18.010 align:middle line:84% And then he went off to the Navy, spent, I don't know, 00:26:18.010 --> 00:26:20.890 align:middle line:84% some time in the Navy, two or three years or so. 00:26:20.890 --> 00:26:23.930 align:middle line:84% Then he came back to Michigan State and got a master's degree. 00:26:23.930 --> 00:26:25.590 align:middle line:90% And he had his own business. 00:26:25.590 --> 00:26:27.720 align:middle line:84% He and another guy had an architects and engineers 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:28.170 align:middle line:90% firm in Michigan. 00:26:28.170 --> 00:26:29.890 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And so that was setting a standard for you 00:26:29.890 --> 00:26:30.310 align:middle line:90% that you were not going to do-- 00:26:30.310 --> 00:26:32.390 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, I wanted to outdo him. 00:26:32.390 --> 00:26:33.350 align:middle line:90% So I went. 00:26:33.350 --> 00:26:33.910 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Isn't that funny, 00:26:33.910 --> 00:26:35.170 align:middle line:84% even though he was 10 years older than you? 00:26:35.170 --> 00:26:36.130 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, he was seven, seven. 00:26:36.130 --> 00:26:36.990 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, seven years older. 00:26:36.990 --> 00:26:38.710 align:middle line:84% You still felt competitive with him, though. 00:26:38.710 --> 00:26:40.252 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, a little bit, sure. 00:26:40.252 --> 00:26:41.050 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:26:41.050 --> 00:26:41.490 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You weren't going 00:26:41.490 --> 00:26:43.282 align:middle line:84% to be the kid that didn't do anything, huh? 00:26:43.282 --> 00:26:44.493 align:middle line:90% So what were you thinking of? 00:26:44.493 --> 00:26:45.910 align:middle line:84% What were you going to go towards? 00:26:45.910 --> 00:26:47.827 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I had worked in this garage, 00:26:47.827 --> 00:26:49.010 align:middle line:90% so I worked on cars. 00:26:49.010 --> 00:26:50.400 align:middle line:90% Lots of mechanics work on cars. 00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:52.150 align:middle line:84% I wanted to become an automotive engineer. 00:26:52.150 --> 00:26:53.310 align:middle line:90% I was in Michigan. 00:26:53.310 --> 00:26:55.850 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That was your mind, yeah. 00:26:55.850 --> 00:26:58.090 align:middle line:84% Before we move into that, I didn't ask you 00:26:58.090 --> 00:27:00.355 align:middle line:84% if you have any recollection of World War II. 00:27:00.355 --> 00:27:01.230 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 00:27:01.230 --> 00:27:01.550 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I do. 00:27:01.550 --> 00:27:04.050 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did it affect your family in any way at all? 00:27:04.050 --> 00:27:06.450 align:middle line:90% 00:27:06.450 --> 00:27:09.210 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, my dad, having been in World War I, 00:27:09.210 --> 00:27:11.390 align:middle line:84% he was always and my mother were always concerned 00:27:11.390 --> 00:27:13.110 align:middle line:90% about him being drafted again. 00:27:13.110 --> 00:27:13.810 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, they were? 00:27:13.810 --> 00:27:16.390 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, he managed to stay a couple of years ahead 00:27:16.390 --> 00:27:17.650 align:middle line:90% of the draft all the time. 00:27:17.650 --> 00:27:18.810 align:middle line:90% So he didn't get drafted. 00:27:18.810 --> 00:27:21.930 align:middle line:84% But he obviously paid a lot of attention to it, read the news, 00:27:21.930 --> 00:27:23.010 align:middle line:90% listened to the radio. 00:27:23.010 --> 00:27:23.350 align:middle line:90% And so I saw-- 00:27:23.350 --> 00:27:24.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So the household was aware 00:27:24.570 --> 00:27:25.590 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 00:27:25.590 --> 00:27:32.870 align:middle line:84% And, well, he often not only worked on the train 00:27:32.870 --> 00:27:36.830 align:middle line:84% but sometimes would spend time in the post office 00:27:36.830 --> 00:27:41.430 align:middle line:84% at the railway station, working, sorting mail at night. 00:27:41.430 --> 00:27:45.330 align:middle line:84% And because there were blackouts, 00:27:45.330 --> 00:27:47.870 align:middle line:84% they had all the windows painted black. 00:27:47.870 --> 00:27:50.063 align:middle line:84% And I remember going to pick him up. 00:27:50.063 --> 00:27:51.730 align:middle line:84% My mother would drive down, pick him up. 00:27:51.730 --> 00:27:54.750 align:middle line:84% And I'd go with her and have to have 00:27:54.750 --> 00:27:57.372 align:middle line:84% the headlights of the cars partially covered 00:27:57.372 --> 00:27:58.330 align:middle line:90% and that sort of thing. 00:27:58.330 --> 00:27:59.310 align:middle line:84% So, yeah, I remember a fair amount of it. 00:27:59.310 --> 00:28:00.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you have some vague recollections of it. 00:28:00.790 --> 00:28:01.070 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:28:01.070 --> 00:28:02.270 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But no one in your family 00:28:02.270 --> 00:28:04.050 align:middle line:84% went off to war that you can recall? 00:28:04.050 --> 00:28:07.800 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, my sister married a veteran after the war. 00:28:07.800 --> 00:28:11.140 align:middle line:84% He had been in the war in the South Pacific. 00:28:11.140 --> 00:28:13.160 align:middle line:84% But I didn't know him during the war. 00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:15.080 align:middle line:90% So I don't remember that. 00:28:15.080 --> 00:28:17.460 align:middle line:84% And I can't say that I knew anybody that was. 00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:19.980 align:middle line:90% Obviously, I remember in the-- 00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:20.946 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: There would've been people in your neighborhood 00:28:20.946 --> 00:28:21.200 align:middle line:90% and stuff. 00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:22.783 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah, in neighborhoods 00:28:22.783 --> 00:28:25.340 align:middle line:84% with stars and gold stars in the window 00:28:25.340 --> 00:28:26.480 align:middle line:90% and all that sort of thing. 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:28.360 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But it didn't directly affect you. 00:28:28.360 --> 00:28:29.818 align:middle line:84% It was just what you might've heard 00:28:29.818 --> 00:28:31.900 align:middle line:84% on the news and the awareness you had. 00:28:31.900 --> 00:28:35.380 align:middle line:84% So when you graduated from high school, 00:28:35.380 --> 00:28:39.500 align:middle line:84% you were going to go to Grand Rapids Junior College, you said. 00:28:39.500 --> 00:28:40.480 align:middle line:90% Get the basics in? 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:43.560 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, for what it's worth, in high school, 00:28:43.560 --> 00:28:47.940 align:middle line:84% after coming back from Alaska, I ran for high school president, 00:28:47.940 --> 00:28:48.680 align:middle line:90% class president. 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:50.320 align:middle line:90% So I was the class president. 00:28:50.320 --> 00:28:51.440 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Very cool. 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:53.900 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: The reason may be worth 00:28:53.900 --> 00:28:57.280 align:middle line:84% mentioning that is a couple of things happened. 00:28:57.280 --> 00:29:03.570 align:middle line:84% I remember this is 1953, OK, fall of '53. 00:29:03.570 --> 00:29:07.330 align:middle line:84% We had an election for the homecoming king and queen. 00:29:07.330 --> 00:29:12.890 align:middle line:84% And they elected a Black kid to be the king and a white girl 00:29:12.890 --> 00:29:16.510 align:middle line:84% to be the queen, which is kind of unusual in those days, 00:29:16.510 --> 00:29:18.290 align:middle line:84% very unusual, as a matter of fact. 00:29:18.290 --> 00:29:24.890 align:middle line:84% The king was a star athlete, both in basketball and football. 00:29:24.890 --> 00:29:29.370 align:middle line:84% And the queen was a fairly popular girl. 00:29:29.370 --> 00:29:33.890 align:middle line:84% And the queen's parents objected to the king being Black. 00:29:33.890 --> 00:29:38.330 align:middle line:84% And the high school principal called me and the other class 00:29:38.330 --> 00:29:43.330 align:middle line:84% officers into his office and said, you have a problem. 00:29:43.330 --> 00:29:46.470 align:middle line:84% He said, I won't mention her name. 00:29:46.470 --> 00:29:50.650 align:middle line:84% But her parents had called and objected to this king and queen 00:29:50.650 --> 00:29:51.470 align:middle line:90% arrangement. 00:29:51.470 --> 00:29:55.250 align:middle line:84% And he said, they want it changed. 00:29:55.250 --> 00:29:56.190 align:middle line:90% But it's up to you. 00:29:56.190 --> 00:29:57.770 align:middle line:84% I'm not going to tell you what to do. 00:29:57.770 --> 00:30:00.870 align:middle line:84% And we said, well, we're not going to change it. 00:30:00.870 --> 00:30:01.950 align:middle line:90% They were elected. 00:30:01.950 --> 00:30:03.950 align:middle line:90% And he said, that's fine. 00:30:03.950 --> 00:30:07.490 align:middle line:84% So the girl's parents made her resign. 00:30:07.490 --> 00:30:08.470 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Really? 00:30:08.470 --> 00:30:13.195 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And so the gal who was runner up, we went to her 00:30:13.195 --> 00:30:14.570 align:middle line:84% and said, OK, you were runner up. 00:30:14.570 --> 00:30:15.445 align:middle line:90% You want to be queen? 00:30:15.445 --> 00:30:16.310 align:middle line:90% She said, oh, great. 00:30:16.310 --> 00:30:19.580 align:middle line:84% So we had a Black king and a white queen. 00:30:19.580 --> 00:30:22.080 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I think that must've have been extraordinary 00:30:22.080 --> 00:30:22.670 align:middle line:90% in 1950. 00:30:22.670 --> 00:30:26.110 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it was I mean, I didn't think much of it 00:30:26.110 --> 00:30:27.330 align:middle line:90% at the time, frankly. 00:30:27.330 --> 00:30:34.410 align:middle line:84% But it really struck me in, well, in 2004, a few years ago, 00:30:34.410 --> 00:30:37.310 align:middle line:84% when there was all the stuff about the 50th anniversary 00:30:37.310 --> 00:30:40.887 align:middle line:84% of Brown versus the Board of Education. 00:30:40.887 --> 00:30:43.470 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You were making your own quiet, little history 00:30:43.470 --> 00:30:43.970 align:middle line:90% there. 00:30:43.970 --> 00:30:47.890 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, the class was a very, very diverse. 00:30:47.890 --> 00:30:53.490 align:middle line:84% There were probably 20% to 22% Blacks in the class. 00:30:53.490 --> 00:30:55.630 align:middle line:84% There were a number of Hispanics. 00:30:55.630 --> 00:30:59.622 align:middle line:84% There were lots of Europeans of one kind or another 00:30:59.622 --> 00:31:01.580 align:middle line:84% because there'd been a lot of immigration right 00:31:01.580 --> 00:31:02.940 align:middle line:90% after World War II. 00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:05.040 align:middle line:84% I mean, there were Latvians, Estonians. 00:31:05.040 --> 00:31:06.740 align:middle line:90% There were Dutch and Germans. 00:31:06.740 --> 00:31:08.160 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You grew up in a really open community, then. 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:09.285 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, Lebanese. 00:31:09.285 --> 00:31:12.560 align:middle line:84% It was very, very diverse bunch of people. 00:31:12.560 --> 00:31:14.060 align:middle line:84% The other interesting thing about it 00:31:14.060 --> 00:31:17.340 align:middle line:84% was that the high school is the high school 00:31:17.340 --> 00:31:21.340 align:middle line:84% Jerry Ford graduated from, long before me, obviously. 00:31:21.340 --> 00:31:26.340 align:middle line:84% And that year he was a young congressman, US congressman. 00:31:26.340 --> 00:31:31.925 align:middle line:84% He had either just been elected or been elected. 00:31:31.925 --> 00:31:33.800 align:middle line:84% Or maybe it was his second term or something. 00:31:33.800 --> 00:31:35.092 align:middle line:90% But he was a young congressman. 00:31:35.092 --> 00:31:39.260 align:middle line:84% And so we asked him to come back to the homecoming to crown 00:31:39.260 --> 00:31:40.840 align:middle line:84% the king and queen, which he did. 00:31:40.840 --> 00:31:43.387 align:middle line:84% So I had my picture with Jerry Ford. 00:31:43.387 --> 00:31:45.220 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Never knowing where all that 00:31:45.220 --> 00:31:47.380 align:middle line:90% was going to go ahead, huh? 00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:48.300 align:middle line:90% Pretty cool, though. 00:31:48.300 --> 00:31:49.960 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Now the high school doesn't exist anymore. 00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:50.502 align:middle line:90% I mean it's-- 00:31:50.502 --> 00:31:52.420 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, they tore it down? 00:31:52.420 --> 00:31:55.100 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It was closed, gosh, I don't when. 00:31:55.100 --> 00:31:58.267 align:middle line:90% But I don't-- it's gone, anyway. 00:31:58.267 --> 00:31:59.850 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: As you talk about this 00:31:59.850 --> 00:32:01.490 align:middle line:84% and you look back at it, the principal 00:32:01.490 --> 00:32:02.707 align:middle line:90% was pretty fair, wasn't he? 00:32:02.707 --> 00:32:04.290 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, no, he was a good guy. 00:32:04.290 --> 00:32:05.645 align:middle line:90% He said, it's up to you. 00:32:05.645 --> 00:32:06.270 align:middle line:90% It's up to you. 00:32:06.270 --> 00:32:07.350 align:middle line:84% I'm not going to tell you what to do. 00:32:07.350 --> 00:32:09.142 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He treated you like adults. 00:32:09.142 --> 00:32:11.355 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, yeah, no, it was a good experience, 00:32:11.355 --> 00:32:12.230 align:middle line:90% very good experience. 00:32:12.230 --> 00:32:13.290 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Very good experience. 00:32:13.290 --> 00:32:15.050 align:middle line:84% And it's only when you juxtapose it 00:32:15.050 --> 00:32:17.810 align:middle line:84% against what was going on in other parts of the country 00:32:17.810 --> 00:32:17.930 align:middle line:90% at that time you realize. 00:32:17.930 --> 00:32:19.790 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Which we didn't know about. 00:32:19.790 --> 00:32:22.330 align:middle line:84% I mean, we didn't what was going on. 00:32:22.330 --> 00:32:25.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It really was a wonderful opportunity for you 00:32:25.570 --> 00:32:27.330 align:middle line:90% to have that experience. 00:32:27.330 --> 00:32:29.690 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So, anyway, I wanted to go to college 00:32:29.690 --> 00:32:31.270 align:middle line:90% to be an automotive engineer. 00:32:31.270 --> 00:32:33.850 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did you have counselors in high school 00:32:33.850 --> 00:32:36.300 align:middle line:90% that helped direct you? 00:32:36.300 --> 00:32:37.550 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Not that I recall. 00:32:37.550 --> 00:32:38.170 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You did it on our own. 00:32:38.170 --> 00:32:40.210 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, I knew what I wanted to do. 00:32:40.210 --> 00:32:45.410 align:middle line:84% And my dad's policy was that, when 00:32:45.410 --> 00:32:49.210 align:middle line:84% you graduated from high school, you were on your own. 00:32:49.210 --> 00:32:50.770 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So he wasn't paying? 00:32:50.770 --> 00:32:51.395 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No. 00:32:51.395 --> 00:32:54.570 align:middle line:84% He said, if you live at home and go to college, 00:32:54.570 --> 00:32:56.210 align:middle line:90% you can live at home free. 00:32:56.210 --> 00:33:00.110 align:middle line:84% OK, but if you don't go to college and live at home, 00:33:00.110 --> 00:33:01.870 align:middle line:90% you got to pay room and board. 00:33:01.870 --> 00:33:04.927 align:middle line:84% And if you go out of town to go to college, you're on your own. 00:33:04.927 --> 00:33:06.010 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Good luck. 00:33:06.010 --> 00:33:07.635 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So I went to junior college 00:33:07.635 --> 00:33:10.010 align:middle line:84% in Grand Rapids for two years, so I could live at home, 00:33:10.010 --> 00:33:11.910 align:middle line:84% and then went to the University of Michigan 00:33:11.910 --> 00:33:14.650 align:middle line:84% because I wanted to go to a place better than my brother. 00:33:14.650 --> 00:33:16.693 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:33:16.693 --> 00:33:19.110 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And you clearly knew about state rivalries 00:33:19.110 --> 00:33:19.610 align:middle line:90% there. 00:33:19.610 --> 00:33:21.210 align:middle line:90% So you had to figure-- 00:33:21.210 --> 00:33:24.543 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, so I went to Grand Rapids Junior College 00:33:24.543 --> 00:33:26.210 align:middle line:84% for two years and then went to Michigan. 00:33:26.210 --> 00:33:26.770 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: How did you do? 00:33:26.770 --> 00:33:27.930 align:middle line:90% I mean, you were a good student. 00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:28.550 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah, I did fine. 00:33:28.550 --> 00:33:30.300 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It was easy for you to do. 00:33:30.300 --> 00:33:32.458 align:middle line:84% Well, then, how did you manage to pay for it? 00:33:32.458 --> 00:33:33.750 align:middle line:90% I mean, how did you pay for it? 00:33:33.750 --> 00:33:36.690 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I had saved up money from working. 00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:39.310 align:middle line:90% I worked all the time. 00:33:39.310 --> 00:33:43.230 align:middle line:84% The year between graduating from high school 00:33:43.230 --> 00:33:46.010 align:middle line:84% and going to junior college, that summer, not year, 00:33:46.010 --> 00:33:46.990 align:middle line:90% but summer. 00:33:46.990 --> 00:33:51.270 align:middle line:84% I drove a truck for Borden's Dairy delivering ice cream 00:33:51.270 --> 00:33:52.942 align:middle line:90% to resorts along Lake Michigan. 00:33:52.942 --> 00:33:53.900 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Really? 00:33:53.900 --> 00:33:56.860 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, and made very good money. 00:33:56.860 --> 00:33:58.860 align:middle line:84% And of course, in those days, I don't what 00:33:58.860 --> 00:34:01.120 align:middle line:84% the tuition was at Grand Rapids Junior College. 00:34:01.120 --> 00:34:01.620 align:middle line:90% But-- 00:34:01.620 --> 00:34:02.420 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Not like what we think. 00:34:02.420 --> 00:34:04.120 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: $50 or something like that. 00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:05.980 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So it was manageable. 00:34:05.980 --> 00:34:07.140 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:11.100 align:middle line:84% University of Michigan, tuition was either 100 or $110 00:34:11.100 --> 00:34:13.357 align:middle line:84% a semester or something like that, or maybe a year, 00:34:13.357 --> 00:34:14.440 align:middle line:90% might've even been a year. 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:14.980 align:middle line:90% I don't really know. 00:34:14.980 --> 00:34:17.147 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But you had to have a place to live. 00:34:17.147 --> 00:34:19.600 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, the first year I went down there, 00:34:19.600 --> 00:34:21.940 align:middle line:90% I got with four other guys. 00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:25.560 align:middle line:84% And we rented the third floor of an old house and lived there. 00:34:25.560 --> 00:34:29.300 align:middle line:84% And then I worked in a restaurant 00:34:29.300 --> 00:34:34.500 align:middle line:84% between the house and the place where the classes were. 00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:37.699 align:middle line:84% And the deal with the restaurant was, for every hour you worked, 00:34:37.699 --> 00:34:38.719 align:middle line:90% you got a free meal. 00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:42.260 align:middle line:84% So if I worked three hours a day, I got three meals. 00:34:42.260 --> 00:34:43.780 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That was very cagey. 00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:44.120 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:34:44.120 --> 00:34:44.920 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It worked out fine. 00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:45.760 align:middle line:90% So you didn't have-- 00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:45.940 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No. 00:34:45.940 --> 00:34:47.760 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You had everything all balanced out. 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:50.302 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And then I don't think it was the first semester. 00:34:50.302 --> 00:34:52.929 align:middle line:84% But after that, after I was there a little 00:34:52.929 --> 00:34:56.449 align:middle line:84% while, I arranged, at the beginning of each semester, 00:34:56.449 --> 00:35:02.010 align:middle line:84% to work in a bookstore when the rush was on, selling slide rules 00:35:02.010 --> 00:35:04.070 align:middle line:84% and drawing sets to engineering students, 00:35:04.070 --> 00:35:06.370 align:middle line:90% and made good money doing that. 00:35:06.370 --> 00:35:10.470 align:middle line:84% And then the next summer, my wife and I got married. 00:35:10.470 --> 00:35:14.290 align:middle line:84% So then she was a secretary in the psychology department 00:35:14.290 --> 00:35:14.982 align:middle line:90% at Michigan. 00:35:14.982 --> 00:35:15.690 align:middle line:90% And that helped-- 00:35:15.690 --> 00:35:17.010 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Where did you meet her? 00:35:17.010 --> 00:35:17.690 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: We were at high school together. 00:35:17.690 --> 00:35:18.890 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, you knew her from high school. 00:35:18.890 --> 00:35:19.765 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 00:35:19.765 --> 00:35:20.850 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, OK. 00:35:20.850 --> 00:35:22.850 align:middle line:84% So then, you had a long-distance courtship, too. 00:35:22.850 --> 00:35:25.830 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, we met, I think, in the 10th grade, 00:35:25.830 --> 00:35:27.150 align:middle line:90% the fall of the 10th grade. 00:35:27.150 --> 00:35:33.610 align:middle line:84% And, yeah, so she went to college for, 00:35:33.610 --> 00:35:37.490 align:middle line:84% I think, a year to Western Michigan. 00:35:37.490 --> 00:35:38.430 align:middle line:90% And then she-- 00:35:38.430 --> 00:35:39.510 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So what'd you do, write letters? 00:35:39.510 --> 00:35:40.690 align:middle line:84% Because people didn't have money for telephone 00:35:40.690 --> 00:35:42.273 align:middle line:90% calls that much in those days. 00:35:42.273 --> 00:35:43.690 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And then she came home 00:35:43.690 --> 00:35:47.130 align:middle line:84% and was a secretary at the Grand Rapids Press 00:35:47.130 --> 00:35:49.560 align:middle line:90% for the advertising department. 00:35:49.560 --> 00:35:51.760 align:middle line:84% And she worked in a bank for a while. 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:54.760 align:middle line:84% And then, when we got married and came to Michigan, 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:56.880 align:middle line:84% to Ann Arbor, she worked as a secretary 00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:58.238 align:middle line:90% in a psychology department. 00:35:58.238 --> 00:36:00.280 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You know, what I hear through all 00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:01.565 align:middle line:90% of this is everybody worked. 00:36:01.565 --> 00:36:02.440 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:02.940 align:middle line:90% Yeah, yeah. 00:36:02.940 --> 00:36:03.640 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: There was no idle time. 00:36:03.640 --> 00:36:06.320 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I'm not sure how I'm going to adjust to retirement. 00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:07.320 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.560 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Because, man, whatever was handy, 00:36:09.560 --> 00:36:10.380 align:middle line:90% you were doing it. 00:36:10.380 --> 00:36:12.040 align:middle line:90% You were trained and programmed. 00:36:12.040 --> 00:36:13.700 align:middle line:84% And you didn't think anything of it Everyone expected to-- 00:36:13.700 --> 00:36:15.520 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It was just part of the deal. 00:36:15.520 --> 00:36:17.200 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And you also made do, right? 00:36:17.200 --> 00:36:17.700 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:36:17.700 --> 00:36:19.117 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I mean, you didn't 00:36:19.117 --> 00:36:20.900 align:middle line:84% have to have a lot of money to be happy. 00:36:20.900 --> 00:36:21.300 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No. 00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:21.840 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You could make do. 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:22.600 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 00:36:22.600 --> 00:36:23.700 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So as a young couple, 00:36:23.700 --> 00:36:25.000 align:middle line:84% then, you rented your own apartment 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:25.860 align:middle line:90% somewhere in the campus area? 00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:27.940 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, we had a one room-- well, 00:36:27.940 --> 00:36:31.780 align:middle line:84% it was one room and a kitchen and a very small bath. 00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:33.280 align:middle line:90% The bath was so small that-- 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:38.840 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] it was so narrow, and the toilet 00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:43.200 align:middle line:84% was situated across ways, that you had to sit crooked 00:36:43.200 --> 00:36:44.740 align:middle line:90% on the toilet in the room. 00:36:44.740 --> 00:36:46.200 align:middle line:84% And to get into the shower, you had 00:36:46.200 --> 00:36:47.700 align:middle line:84% to step over the toilet to get in the shower. 00:36:47.700 --> 00:36:47.900 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, boy. 00:36:47.900 --> 00:36:50.400 align:middle line:84% That was utilizing every square inch of space. 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.940 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: We were there for a year. 00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:56.100 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I think for a year, maybe two. 00:36:56.100 --> 00:36:59.140 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And this, we might say, was in Ann Arbor. 00:36:59.140 --> 00:36:59.980 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:36:59.980 --> 00:37:00.600 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: I assume. 00:37:00.600 --> 00:37:02.107 align:middle line:84% I imagine you weren't on the campus. 00:37:02.107 --> 00:37:03.940 align:middle line:84% You were somewhere in the city of Ann Arbor. 00:37:03.940 --> 00:37:04.982 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was. 00:37:04.982 --> 00:37:08.140 align:middle line:84% Well, but it was only about three blocks south 00:37:08.140 --> 00:37:10.720 align:middle line:84% of where the main engineering program is. 00:37:10.720 --> 00:37:13.223 align:middle line:84% So we could both walk everywhere. 00:37:13.223 --> 00:37:15.140 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Do you think back at that time 00:37:15.140 --> 00:37:17.767 align:middle line:90% was a happy time? 00:37:17.767 --> 00:37:20.100 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I do, I'm not sure she does, but I do. 00:37:20.100 --> 00:37:21.840 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:23.722 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Usually, you're just 00:37:23.722 --> 00:37:25.180 align:middle line:84% not worrying about the whole world, 00:37:25.180 --> 00:37:27.340 align:middle line:84% just getting through each semester. 00:37:27.340 --> 00:37:30.612 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: We had our first kid within about a year and a half. 00:37:30.612 --> 00:37:31.820 align:middle line:90% And that kind of slowed down. 00:37:31.820 --> 00:37:33.362 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Before you graduated? 00:37:33.362 --> 00:37:35.060 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 00:37:35.060 --> 00:37:43.340 align:middle line:84% Yeah, our oldest son, Matt, was born in January 1, '59. 00:37:43.340 --> 00:37:47.330 align:middle line:90% We were married in June '57. 00:37:47.330 --> 00:37:49.170 align:middle line:84% So I guess it was a year and a half. 00:37:49.170 --> 00:37:51.050 align:middle line:84% And we were still in that apartment. 00:37:51.050 --> 00:37:51.830 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You were really young. 00:37:51.830 --> 00:37:54.650 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, we were still in that apartment when he was born. 00:37:54.650 --> 00:37:56.290 align:middle line:90% And then the next-- 00:37:56.290 --> 00:37:56.810 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's a tiny, little place. 00:37:56.810 --> 00:37:58.070 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --summer we moved out. 00:37:58.070 --> 00:37:58.470 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah. 00:37:58.470 --> 00:37:59.390 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Tiny, little place. 00:37:59.390 --> 00:38:01.430 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: We had a fold-out bed in the living room. 00:38:01.430 --> 00:38:02.590 align:middle line:90% That was where we slept. 00:38:02.590 --> 00:38:03.050 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What year did you 00:38:03.050 --> 00:38:04.630 align:middle line:90% get your undergraduate degree? 00:38:04.630 --> 00:38:05.255 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: '58 00:38:05.255 --> 00:38:06.510 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: '58, OK. 00:38:06.510 --> 00:38:09.223 align:middle line:84% And here you are, married with a child. 00:38:09.223 --> 00:38:10.390 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Well, actually-- 00:38:10.390 --> 00:38:11.515 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: On the way. 00:38:11.515 --> 00:38:14.690 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Obviously, he was born after I graduated 00:38:14.690 --> 00:38:15.870 align:middle line:90% because he was born in '59. 00:38:15.870 --> 00:38:16.703 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: '59. 00:38:16.703 --> 00:38:17.750 align:middle line:90% But on the way. 00:38:17.750 --> 00:38:19.333 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So six months after, yeah. 00:38:19.333 --> 00:38:21.041 align:middle line:84% And I was a graduate student at the time. 00:38:21.041 --> 00:38:22.666 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And what was your plan? 00:38:22.666 --> 00:38:24.130 align:middle line:90% What were you thinking of doing? 00:38:24.130 --> 00:38:26.670 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I really hadn't thought a whole lot about it. 00:38:26.670 --> 00:38:28.218 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:38:28.218 --> 00:38:30.010 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Wasn't it, like, get a job? 00:38:30.010 --> 00:38:31.468 align:middle line:84% Usually, isn't that what you think? 00:38:31.468 --> 00:38:34.130 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, the other context 00:38:34.130 --> 00:38:36.530 align:middle line:90% you got to put it in is-- 00:38:36.530 --> 00:38:42.650 align:middle line:84% and you'll remember this just because, within the last month, 00:38:42.650 --> 00:38:46.520 align:middle line:84% there was all the stuff in the press about Sputnik. 00:38:46.520 --> 00:38:47.160 align:middle line:90% October. 00:38:47.160 --> 00:38:50.187 align:middle line:90% Was it early October '57. '57. 00:38:50.187 --> 00:38:51.020 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: '57. 00:38:51.020 --> 00:38:52.600 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: '57, yeah. 00:38:52.600 --> 00:38:57.000 align:middle line:84% And, as I've jokingly said, I need 00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:58.680 align:middle line:84% to thank the Soviets for my career. 00:38:58.680 --> 00:39:00.740 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:39:00.740 --> 00:39:01.240 align:middle line:90% Because-- 00:39:01.240 --> 00:39:02.440 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Who knew? 00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:04.900 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Sputnik went up in the fall of '57. 00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:07.280 align:middle line:84% And the money just came down out of the sky 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.280 align:middle line:84% to support students studying science and engineering. 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:11.860 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, really? 00:39:11.860 --> 00:39:13.460 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, it was incredible. 00:39:13.460 --> 00:39:14.860 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You were a beneficiary of that, then. 00:39:14.860 --> 00:39:16.280 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. 00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:17.613 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: In what respect? 00:39:17.613 --> 00:39:18.480 align:middle line:90% What did they say? 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.660 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, my plan, as I'd said earlier, 00:39:20.660 --> 00:39:23.520 align:middle line:84% was to become an automotive engineer 00:39:23.520 --> 00:39:28.040 align:middle line:84% and get a job in Detroit, like lots of Michigan kids. 00:39:28.040 --> 00:39:35.160 align:middle line:84% And probably within a month or two after Sputnik went up, 00:39:35.160 --> 00:39:36.920 align:middle line:84% a faculty member stopped me in the hall 00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:38.378 align:middle line:84% and said, what are you going to do? 00:39:38.378 --> 00:39:40.720 align:middle line:84% I had also been working as a research 00:39:40.720 --> 00:39:44.340 align:middle line:84% assistant for the Department head 00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:46.120 align:middle line:90% and for another faculty member. 00:39:46.120 --> 00:39:47.460 align:middle line:90% So they knew me. 00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:50.185 align:middle line:84% And he said, what are you going to do when you graduate? 00:39:50.185 --> 00:39:51.060 align:middle line:90% I said, I don't know. 00:39:51.060 --> 00:39:52.040 align:middle line:90% I'm looking for a job. 00:39:52.040 --> 00:39:53.200 align:middle line:84% I've been doing some interviewing. 00:39:53.200 --> 00:39:54.220 align:middle line:84% And he said, oh, no, no, you don't 00:39:54.220 --> 00:39:55.380 align:middle line:90% want to do it, go to a job. 00:39:55.380 --> 00:39:57.200 align:middle line:84% You want to go to graduate school. 00:39:57.200 --> 00:39:59.200 align:middle line:84% I said, I can't afford to go to graduate school. 00:39:59.200 --> 00:40:00.700 align:middle line:90% I'm putting myself through. 00:40:00.700 --> 00:40:02.480 align:middle line:90% And my wife's working. 00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:05.520 align:middle line:84% And he said, well, no you don't pay to go to graduate school. 00:40:05.520 --> 00:40:07.540 align:middle line:84% They pay you to go to graduate school. 00:40:07.540 --> 00:40:09.040 align:middle line:90% So I said, OK, tell me more. 00:40:09.040 --> 00:40:09.540 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:40:09.540 --> 00:40:10.640 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That was a revelation. 00:40:10.640 --> 00:40:11.740 align:middle line:90% It never had occurred to you. 00:40:11.740 --> 00:40:12.840 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I didn't know about it. 00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:14.320 align:middle line:84% I didn't know about graduate school. 00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.195 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, isn't that interesting? 00:40:16.195 --> 00:40:17.880 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And so I said, tell me more. 00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:19.300 align:middle line:90% And he did. 00:40:19.300 --> 00:40:27.580 align:middle line:84% So they offered me a scholarship and a research assistantship 00:40:27.580 --> 00:40:29.080 align:middle line:90% to go to graduate school. 00:40:29.080 --> 00:40:30.180 align:middle line:90% And I talked to Mary. 00:40:30.180 --> 00:40:32.540 align:middle line:90% And she said fine. 00:40:32.540 --> 00:40:34.760 align:middle line:90% And I started a master's degree. 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:38.900 align:middle line:84% And about halfway through the master's degree, 00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:43.230 align:middle line:84% one of the faculty members said, you're going to go on for a PhD? 00:40:43.230 --> 00:40:45.510 align:middle line:84% I said, oh, I got to get a job and get out of here. 00:40:45.510 --> 00:40:48.625 align:middle line:84% Oh, no, no, no, you should-- so I said, what's involved? 00:40:48.625 --> 00:40:50.750 align:middle line:84% And he said, well, you got to take some coursework. 00:40:50.750 --> 00:40:53.730 align:middle line:84% I wasn't worried about that because I could do OK at that. 00:40:53.730 --> 00:40:57.490 align:middle line:84% And you've got to pass two language exams, in those days, 00:40:57.490 --> 00:41:00.730 align:middle line:84% reading and translating ability in two languages. 00:41:00.730 --> 00:41:04.175 align:middle line:84% And you got to take qualifying exams, prelim exams. 00:41:04.175 --> 00:41:05.550 align:middle line:84% And I said, well, what are those? 00:41:05.550 --> 00:41:08.010 align:middle line:90% And he described them to me. 00:41:08.010 --> 00:41:10.210 align:middle line:84% And I said, well, can I take them 00:41:10.210 --> 00:41:12.270 align:middle line:90% while I'm a master's student? 00:41:12.270 --> 00:41:13.730 align:middle line:90% And he said, yeah, you can. 00:41:13.730 --> 00:41:16.073 align:middle line:84% I said, OK, if I pass them, I'll stay on. 00:41:16.073 --> 00:41:17.990 align:middle line:84% If I don't pass them, I'm getting out of here. 00:41:17.990 --> 00:41:19.130 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Hedging the bets, huh? 00:41:19.130 --> 00:41:21.150 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I took them and passed them. 00:41:21.150 --> 00:41:23.610 align:middle line:90% So I stayed on for a PhD. 00:41:23.610 --> 00:41:26.370 align:middle line:90% And it was in about-- 00:41:26.370 --> 00:41:29.930 align:middle line:84% this kind of ties back to why I'm at Georgia Tech. 00:41:29.930 --> 00:41:35.090 align:middle line:84% About 1957, I think, Art Hansen joined the faculty at Michigan 00:41:35.090 --> 00:41:36.930 align:middle line:90% in mechanical engineering. 00:41:36.930 --> 00:41:39.640 align:middle line:84% And I took a couple of courses from him. 00:41:39.640 --> 00:41:42.660 align:middle line:84% And when it came time to do a PhD thesis, 00:41:42.660 --> 00:41:45.128 align:middle line:84% I decided to do a thesis under his direction. 00:41:45.128 --> 00:41:45.920 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Ah. 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:47.700 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So he was my thesis advisor. 00:41:47.700 --> 00:41:50.680 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What was your topic? 00:41:50.680 --> 00:41:52.700 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: A moderately useless topic 00:41:52.700 --> 00:41:54.400 align:middle line:84% fairly quickly after I finished, but it 00:41:54.400 --> 00:42:00.680 align:middle line:84% was three-dimensional boundary layers, similarity solutions 00:42:00.680 --> 00:42:02.920 align:middle line:84% and three-dimensional boundary layers. 00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:05.700 align:middle line:84% And it was mainly mathematical, applied math. 00:42:05.700 --> 00:42:07.540 align:middle line:90% That's the area Hansen was in. 00:42:07.540 --> 00:42:10.530 align:middle line:84% But it had some experimental work with it. 00:42:10.530 --> 00:42:12.780 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: In relation to mechanical engineering? 00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:13.905 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, oh, yeah. 00:42:13.905 --> 00:42:17.200 align:middle line:84% Yeah, well, it was a fluid mechanics area, fluid mechanics 00:42:17.200 --> 00:42:19.000 align:middle line:90% application area. 00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:20.420 align:middle line:90% And so I did that. 00:42:20.420 --> 00:42:23.000 align:middle line:84% It was the days before computers. 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.105 align:middle line:90% Or computers were so-- 00:42:25.105 --> 00:42:25.980 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Rare. 00:42:25.980 --> 00:42:28.560 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: So what? 00:42:28.560 --> 00:42:33.080 align:middle line:84% Rare in engineering research at that time 00:42:33.080 --> 00:42:35.040 align:middle line:84% that this was all pencil and paper 00:42:35.040 --> 00:42:37.500 align:middle line:90% and some experimental work. 00:42:37.500 --> 00:42:44.420 align:middle line:84% And so the next step, I guess might as well 00:42:44.420 --> 00:42:45.740 align:middle line:90% keep going with the-- 00:42:45.740 --> 00:42:47.157 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I want to ask you. 00:42:47.157 --> 00:42:49.860 align:middle line:84% What was it like to be a college student at University 00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:53.945 align:middle line:84% of Michigan at that time period in the mid-to-late '50s? 00:42:53.945 --> 00:42:55.820 align:middle line:84% Because you were married, was your experience 00:42:55.820 --> 00:42:57.117 align:middle line:90% different than if you had-- 00:42:57.117 --> 00:42:58.700 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, I'm sure it was, yeah. 00:42:58.700 --> 00:43:00.860 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you were pretty responsible? 00:43:00.860 --> 00:43:02.818 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I mean, we were both working. 00:43:02.818 --> 00:43:06.340 align:middle line:84% And we had one kid and our second-- 00:43:06.340 --> 00:43:09.060 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Because there was a lot going on in the world 00:43:09.060 --> 00:43:09.560 align:middle line:90% then. 00:43:09.560 --> 00:43:12.705 align:middle line:84% The Korean conflict had come and gone. 00:43:12.705 --> 00:43:15.080 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, that's another thing that was going on. 00:43:15.080 --> 00:43:16.040 align:middle line:90% It wasn't my intention. 00:43:16.040 --> 00:43:17.565 align:middle line:84% But I managed to avoid the draft-- 00:43:17.565 --> 00:43:19.940 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Because you were in a position like that. 00:43:19.940 --> 00:43:21.315 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, initially, they 00:43:21.315 --> 00:43:25.300 align:middle line:84% were giving deferments if you were studying engineering 00:43:25.300 --> 00:43:27.020 align:middle line:90% or physical sciences. 00:43:27.020 --> 00:43:29.420 align:middle line:90% So I was deferred for that. 00:43:29.420 --> 00:43:30.577 align:middle line:90% And then we got married. 00:43:30.577 --> 00:43:32.660 align:middle line:84% And they were given deferments for married people. 00:43:32.660 --> 00:43:33.280 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's happenstance. 00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:34.690 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's just the way things-- 00:43:34.690 --> 00:43:37.190 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Then they were given deferments if you had kids. 00:43:37.190 --> 00:43:38.640 align:middle line:90% So I managed to never have to-- 00:43:38.640 --> 00:43:40.390 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: To go to Korea, which is-- 00:43:40.390 --> 00:43:42.057 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, to go in the military. 00:43:42.057 --> 00:43:43.548 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: --very fine. 00:43:43.548 --> 00:43:45.090 align:middle line:84% I mean, because you've had experience 00:43:45.090 --> 00:43:47.690 align:middle line:84% at Tech for almost 40 years here, 00:43:47.690 --> 00:43:50.770 align:middle line:84% did you find that they were nurturers at University 00:43:50.770 --> 00:43:52.150 align:middle line:90% of Michigan, the professors? 00:43:52.150 --> 00:43:54.552 align:middle line:84% I mean, were you impressed with or-- 00:43:54.552 --> 00:43:56.510 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, some of them were, certainly. 00:43:56.510 --> 00:43:56.750 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Affected by them? 00:43:56.750 --> 00:43:57.830 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I don't know in general. 00:43:57.830 --> 00:44:00.250 align:middle line:84% Oh, yeah, well, I mean, the reason I went to graduate school 00:44:00.250 --> 00:44:02.125 align:middle line:84% and the reason I went into the academic world 00:44:02.125 --> 00:44:04.330 align:middle line:84% was because faculty member coming to me-- 00:44:04.330 --> 00:44:05.430 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And taking an interest in you. 00:44:05.430 --> 00:44:06.250 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, absolutely. 00:44:06.250 --> 00:44:07.650 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Do you remember what his name was? 00:44:07.650 --> 00:44:08.110 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 00:44:08.110 --> 00:44:09.370 align:middle line:90% I remember them all, sure. 00:44:09.370 --> 00:44:09.870 align:middle line:90% I mean-- 00:44:09.870 --> 00:44:11.953 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Who actually set you on that path? 00:44:11.953 --> 00:44:14.630 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, certainly, I'm not sure exactly which one. 00:44:14.630 --> 00:44:17.650 align:middle line:84% But I know various ones that talked to me about it 00:44:17.650 --> 00:44:20.730 align:middle line:90% were Hansen, obviously. 00:44:20.730 --> 00:44:22.990 align:middle line:84% Gordon Van Wylen, who was head of the department, 00:44:22.990 --> 00:44:27.130 align:middle line:84% later became dean, and later became president of Hope College 00:44:27.130 --> 00:44:29.370 align:middle line:90% in Holland, Michigan. 00:44:29.370 --> 00:44:31.970 align:middle line:84% John Clark, who was a senior faculty member. 00:44:31.970 --> 00:44:36.565 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE], who was a younger faculty member at the time. 00:44:36.565 --> 00:44:37.940 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: See all of them-- 00:44:37.940 --> 00:44:39.022 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Joe Shigley. 00:44:39.022 --> 00:44:40.480 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's great that you 00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:44.000 align:middle line:84% remember their names because there's no one else to say. 00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.438 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, see, after going to Cambridge 00:44:47.438 --> 00:44:48.980 align:middle line:84% for two years, came back to Michigan, 00:44:48.980 --> 00:44:50.940 align:middle line:84% then I was working with most of those people. 00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:52.938 align:middle line:84% So I spent six years with them and got 00:44:52.938 --> 00:44:53.980 align:middle line:90% to know them fairly well. 00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:55.320 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: If someone hadn't spoken up, 00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:56.860 align:middle line:84% you would've had a whole different life. 00:44:56.860 --> 00:44:57.540 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, absolutely. 00:44:57.540 --> 00:44:59.380 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Because you would not have known. 00:44:59.380 --> 00:44:59.560 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:44:59.560 --> 00:45:01.102 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And that relationship 00:45:01.102 --> 00:45:04.240 align:middle line:84% between student and mentor/faculty person 00:45:04.240 --> 00:45:06.000 align:middle line:90% is so important. 00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.760 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, they were very good, very good. 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:15.560 align:middle line:84% And the reason I ended up becoming an academic 00:45:15.560 --> 00:45:19.360 align:middle line:84% and first going to Cambridge was again-- 00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:20.860 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Somebody intervened? 00:45:20.860 --> 00:45:22.068 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, absolutely. 00:45:22.068 --> 00:45:23.753 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Who? 00:45:23.753 --> 00:45:28.520 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, It was Van Wylen and Hansen. 00:45:28.520 --> 00:45:29.100 align:middle line:90% I had-- 00:45:29.100 --> 00:45:30.060 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, they recognized recognize 00:45:30.060 --> 00:45:31.400 align:middle line:84% something in what you were doing, 00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:32.692 align:middle line:90% that there was a value to this. 00:45:32.692 --> 00:45:35.100 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, oh, yeah. 00:45:35.100 --> 00:45:40.920 align:middle line:84% This would've been either fall of '62 or spring of '63, 00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:43.660 align:middle line:90% I forget which. 00:45:43.660 --> 00:45:45.820 align:middle line:84% I mean, I knew them and had been working with them 00:45:45.820 --> 00:45:48.360 align:middle line:84% off and on for several years by that time. 00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:51.440 align:middle line:84% So we would see each other in the hall and what have you. 00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:57.020 align:middle line:84% And I think it was Van Wylen who said they were interested 00:45:57.020 --> 00:46:01.020 align:middle line:84% because of people in the auto industry in Detroit 00:46:01.020 --> 00:46:04.140 align:middle line:84% had said to them they needed to get a faculty member 00:46:04.140 --> 00:46:06.900 align:middle line:90% in the area of lubrication. 00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:08.820 align:middle line:84% And for some reason, they thought 00:46:08.820 --> 00:46:12.240 align:middle line:84% lubrication was basically an application of fluid mechanics, 00:46:12.240 --> 00:46:14.380 align:middle line:90% which part of it is, of course. 00:46:14.380 --> 00:46:17.300 align:middle line:84% And Van Wylen said they had interviewed two or three people 00:46:17.300 --> 00:46:18.420 align:middle line:90% from industry. 00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:20.320 align:middle line:84% And they weren't happy with them. 00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:23.548 align:middle line:84% And so they had decided to grow their own, as he put it. 00:46:23.548 --> 00:46:24.840 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Does that rate? 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:27.460 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So he said, we wanted 00:46:27.460 --> 00:46:29.828 align:middle line:90% to know if you'd be interested. 00:46:29.828 --> 00:46:30.870 align:middle line:90% What are you going to do? 00:46:30.870 --> 00:46:33.770 align:middle line:84% I said, well, I'm looking for a job. 00:46:33.770 --> 00:46:38.130 align:middle line:84% They knew I was approaching the end of my thesis work. 00:46:38.130 --> 00:46:40.030 align:middle line:84% And I said, what do you have in mind? 00:46:40.030 --> 00:46:43.570 align:middle line:84% And he said, well, we can get the money 00:46:43.570 --> 00:46:47.910 align:middle line:84% to send you to do a postdoc someplace to study that field 00:46:47.910 --> 00:46:51.530 align:middle line:84% and then if you'll come back and be on the faculty. 00:46:51.530 --> 00:46:56.448 align:middle line:84% So I said, OK, where do you want to send the person? 00:46:56.448 --> 00:46:58.990 align:middle line:84% And he said, well, we'd like you to go to Cambridge, England, 00:46:58.990 --> 00:47:01.730 align:middle line:84% and work with a couple of guys named Bowden and Tabor, who 00:47:01.730 --> 00:47:06.530 align:middle line:84% were the world-renowned people in that field at the time. 00:47:06.530 --> 00:47:08.590 align:middle line:84% And I went home, talked to Mary about it. 00:47:08.590 --> 00:47:10.210 align:middle line:90% She agreed. 00:47:10.210 --> 00:47:12.070 align:middle line:84% She was pretty agreeable in those days. 00:47:12.070 --> 00:47:12.570 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:47:12.570 --> 00:47:13.653 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Thank God. 00:47:13.653 --> 00:47:15.850 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I'm not sure if I'd go and ask today 00:47:15.850 --> 00:47:19.720 align:middle line:90% whether she'd be as agreeable. 00:47:19.720 --> 00:47:20.303 align:middle line:90% So I said, OK. 00:47:20.303 --> 00:47:22.178 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, did you go on your own? 00:47:22.178 --> 00:47:23.132 align:middle line:90% Or did she and-- 00:47:23.132 --> 00:47:24.590 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah, no, she went. 00:47:24.590 --> 00:47:25.840 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: She went, too. 00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:26.990 align:middle line:90% Great adventure, then. 00:47:26.990 --> 00:47:32.805 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I wrote to Bowden and gave him a brief resume 00:47:32.805 --> 00:47:34.680 align:middle line:84% and said, I've got the money to come and work 00:47:34.680 --> 00:47:36.960 align:middle line:90% for you for a year. 00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:37.900 align:middle line:90% Will you have me? 00:47:37.900 --> 00:47:39.120 align:middle line:90% And he said, oh, yeah. 00:47:39.120 --> 00:47:41.040 align:middle line:84% He wrote back and said-- this is all 00:47:41.040 --> 00:47:43.862 align:middle line:90% writing in those days, letters. 00:47:43.862 --> 00:47:45.320 align:middle line:84% I was quite impressed with the fact 00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:47.278 align:middle line:84% that he wrote back and said he would accept me. 00:47:47.278 --> 00:47:49.420 align:middle line:84% Of course, now I realize, in retrospect, 00:47:49.420 --> 00:47:52.200 align:middle line:84% if a reasonably smart person with a pretty good education 00:47:52.200 --> 00:47:54.520 align:middle line:84% writes you and says, I'm willing to work for you 00:47:54.520 --> 00:47:56.620 align:middle line:84% for a year for nothing if you'll take me in, 00:47:56.620 --> 00:47:58.040 align:middle line:90% of course you say yes. 00:47:58.040 --> 00:47:58.580 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:47:58.580 --> 00:48:00.360 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And you were coming from very reputable 00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:00.880 align:middle line:90% people, too. 00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:02.040 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, so. 00:48:02.040 --> 00:48:05.580 align:middle line:84% But he said in his letter-- he was an incredibly sharp guy. 00:48:05.580 --> 00:48:07.320 align:middle line:90% I learned a lot from him. 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.100 align:middle line:84% He said in his letter, one year's really not enough. 00:48:10.100 --> 00:48:11.840 align:middle line:84% He said, you're changing fields-- 00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:14.920 align:middle line:84% because he was in physics and mostly in surface physics 00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:19.200 align:middle line:84% and surface chemistry, not applied math 00:48:19.200 --> 00:48:22.280 align:middle line:90% or not fluid mechanics at all. 00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:25.700 align:middle line:84% He said, you really ought to stay for two years. 00:48:25.700 --> 00:48:27.300 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And back to Mary. 00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:28.980 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So I took that to her. 00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:30.340 align:middle line:90% And I took it to Van Wylen. 00:48:30.340 --> 00:48:33.580 align:middle line:84% And Van Wylen said, well, let me see what I can do. 00:48:33.580 --> 00:48:35.180 align:middle line:84% And a week later, he came back to me. 00:48:35.180 --> 00:48:36.320 align:middle line:90% He said, OK, I got enough money. 00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:37.240 align:middle line:90% You can go for two years. 00:48:37.240 --> 00:48:37.740 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did they make you 00:48:37.740 --> 00:48:40.323 align:middle line:84% sign a contract that you'd come back after the end of that two 00:48:40.323 --> 00:48:42.693 align:middle line:90% years? 00:48:42.693 --> 00:48:43.860 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Well, we had a-- 00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:45.505 align:middle line:90% I don't recall signing anything. 00:48:45.505 --> 00:48:47.380 align:middle line:84% But we certainly had a gentleman's agreement. 00:48:47.380 --> 00:48:49.740 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: A gentleman's agreement, which is my point. 00:48:49.740 --> 00:48:51.323 align:middle line:84% I mean, what a long time ago that was. 00:48:51.323 --> 00:48:53.560 align:middle line:84% Nobody would be doing that these days. 00:48:53.560 --> 00:48:54.720 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I don't think I signed anything. 00:48:54.720 --> 00:48:55.580 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So it was on good faith 00:48:55.580 --> 00:48:57.747 align:middle line:84% that you would go there, gather as much as you could 00:48:57.747 --> 00:48:59.820 align:middle line:90% into your brain, and come back. 00:48:59.820 --> 00:49:03.078 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, then so I wrote Bowden and said, 00:49:03.078 --> 00:49:04.120 align:middle line:90% yeah, I got enough money. 00:49:04.120 --> 00:49:05.540 align:middle line:90% I can come for two. 00:49:05.540 --> 00:49:08.920 align:middle line:84% He writes back and says, well, at Cambridge, 00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:13.420 align:middle line:84% to get a PhD, all you have to do is do research for three years 00:49:13.420 --> 00:49:15.380 align:middle line:90% and write it up and defend it. 00:49:15.380 --> 00:49:16.880 align:middle line:84% You don't have to do any coursework. 00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:18.220 align:middle line:84% You don't have any language requirements. 00:49:18.220 --> 00:49:18.980 align:middle line:90% You don't have any-- 00:49:18.980 --> 00:49:19.620 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Really? 00:49:19.620 --> 00:49:20.820 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: --prelims. 00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:24.370 align:middle line:84% And he said, if you have an advanced degree, which you will 00:49:24.370 --> 00:49:27.350 align:middle line:84% have, because I was getting my PhD at Michigan, 00:49:27.350 --> 00:49:29.350 align:middle line:84% he said, they'll waive one of those three years. 00:49:29.350 --> 00:49:31.690 align:middle line:84% So you might as well sign up and be a student. 00:49:31.690 --> 00:49:34.290 align:middle line:84% And you'll get another PhD out of it. 00:49:34.290 --> 00:49:35.730 align:middle line:90% So I said, OK, how much-- 00:49:35.730 --> 00:49:36.938 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: In two years. 00:49:36.938 --> 00:49:39.650 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, so I said, how much the tuition? 00:49:39.650 --> 00:49:41.410 align:middle line:84% We're going back and forth with it. 00:49:41.410 --> 00:49:45.030 align:middle line:90% Tuition was 25 pounds a year. 00:49:45.030 --> 00:49:48.298 align:middle line:84% And in those days, 25 pounds was about $75 a year. 00:49:48.298 --> 00:49:49.590 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: You're kidding. 00:49:49.590 --> 00:49:50.215 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No. 00:49:50.215 --> 00:49:51.465 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] So I said, OK. 00:49:51.465 --> 00:49:52.590 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, my God. 00:49:52.590 --> 00:49:54.030 align:middle line:90% That's incredible. 00:49:54.030 --> 00:49:56.888 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So he directed me to one of the colleges. 00:49:56.888 --> 00:49:58.930 align:middle line:84% At Cambridge, you got to be admitted to a college 00:49:58.930 --> 00:50:01.650 align:middle line:84% before you can be admitted to the university. 00:50:01.650 --> 00:50:03.722 align:middle line:84% So he directed me to Emmanuel College. 00:50:03.722 --> 00:50:04.430 align:middle line:90% And I wrote them. 00:50:04.430 --> 00:50:05.470 align:middle line:90% And they admitted me. 00:50:05.470 --> 00:50:08.530 align:middle line:84% So I was a student and a postdoc all at the same time 00:50:08.530 --> 00:50:09.310 align:middle line:90% while I was there. 00:50:09.310 --> 00:50:11.310 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What a great opportunity it was. 00:50:11.310 --> 00:50:13.850 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But, I mean, we went with two kids. 00:50:13.850 --> 00:50:17.290 align:middle line:84% I mean, we only had $11,000 to pay our transportation over 00:50:17.290 --> 00:50:18.670 align:middle line:84% and back, and live for two years. 00:50:18.670 --> 00:50:19.350 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Here's the amount of money. 00:50:19.350 --> 00:50:20.560 align:middle line:84% Let's see what you could do with it. 00:50:20.560 --> 00:50:21.400 align:middle line:90% So it was really-- 00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:21.720 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:50:21.720 --> 00:50:23.845 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You weren't living high on the hog. 00:50:23.845 --> 00:50:26.323 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Although, compared to a lot of people 00:50:26.323 --> 00:50:28.240 align:middle line:84% in England at that time, that was pretty good. 00:50:28.240 --> 00:50:28.760 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You were doing OK. 00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:30.480 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: --pretty good money. 00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:32.438 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: There's a great deal of respect 00:50:32.438 --> 00:50:34.863 align:middle line:90% for education and for-- 00:50:34.863 --> 00:50:37.280 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, I mean, Cambridge, of course, it's 00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:38.360 align:middle line:90% a lot of it. 00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:42.160 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's a lovely, lovely area to go into. 00:50:42.160 --> 00:50:46.320 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Part of the time I was there, I worked as what they 00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:49.080 align:middle line:84% call a demonstrator in the physics department, which 00:50:49.080 --> 00:50:53.140 align:middle line:84% is what we would call a TA, working the undergraduate labs, 00:50:53.140 --> 00:50:54.840 align:middle line:90% teaching physics students. 00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:57.280 align:middle line:84% So I made a little extra income that way. 00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:01.203 align:middle line:84% And we managed to travel to France and Italy and Spain. 00:51:01.203 --> 00:51:03.120 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: See a little bit of the world. 00:51:03.120 --> 00:51:04.060 align:middle line:90% How exciting. 00:51:04.060 --> 00:51:04.840 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 00:51:04.840 --> 00:51:05.680 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Who knew? 00:51:05.680 --> 00:51:06.440 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:07.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Who knew all that could come out 00:51:07.570 --> 00:51:08.960 align:middle line:90% of applying yourself? 00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:14.320 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So then I came back in June of '63, managed 00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:16.620 align:middle line:84% to-- well, in the process of being there, 00:51:16.620 --> 00:51:23.310 align:middle line:84% managed to meet people, like CP Snow, who actually was a-- 00:51:23.310 --> 00:51:27.350 align:middle line:84% he and Bowden, the guy I worked for, were graduate students 00:51:27.350 --> 00:51:28.930 align:middle line:90% together in the early '30s. 00:51:28.930 --> 00:51:30.410 align:middle line:90% And they published together. 00:51:30.410 --> 00:51:35.550 align:middle line:84% And so I met him, happened to meet Crick and Perutz 00:51:35.550 --> 00:51:38.652 align:middle line:84% the evening that they got announced the Nobel Prize. 00:51:38.652 --> 00:51:40.110 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, you were really 00:51:40.110 --> 00:51:41.110 align:middle line:90% moving in some fast circles. 00:51:41.110 --> 00:51:43.470 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It was just all kinds of really top people 00:51:43.470 --> 00:51:44.070 align:middle line:90% that you got to meet. 00:51:44.070 --> 00:51:44.590 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You were there just 00:51:44.590 --> 00:51:46.270 align:middle line:84% at the very best time, were you not? 00:51:46.270 --> 00:51:50.910 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it was a good time, anyway, good time. 00:51:50.910 --> 00:51:53.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Ward, let's go back before we go forward. 00:51:53.570 --> 00:51:56.910 align:middle line:84% I want to go back and talk about some of these academics 00:51:56.910 --> 00:51:59.190 align:middle line:84% that you were exposed to in Cambridge, these names 00:51:59.190 --> 00:52:01.350 align:middle line:90% that you were tossing out. 00:52:01.350 --> 00:52:03.610 align:middle line:84% As, again, the only one I remember is CP Snow. 00:52:03.610 --> 00:52:05.450 align:middle line:84% But there was about a half a dozen there. 00:52:05.450 --> 00:52:07.010 align:middle line:84% Let's talk a little bit about these people. 00:52:07.010 --> 00:52:07.970 align:middle line:90% What were they doing? 00:52:07.970 --> 00:52:09.690 align:middle line:84% What was their context to Bowden. 00:52:09.690 --> 00:52:13.355 align:middle line:84% And how did they affect you in any way? 00:52:13.355 --> 00:52:15.730 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: OK well, let's talk about them one at a time. 00:52:15.730 --> 00:52:16.150 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Yes. 00:52:16.150 --> 00:52:17.950 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: CP Snow I only met once. 00:52:17.950 --> 00:52:20.290 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: And who was he? 00:52:20.290 --> 00:52:27.170 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, CP Snow was a very reasonably prominent 00:52:27.170 --> 00:52:31.150 align:middle line:84% scientist and a very prominent government employee, 00:52:31.150 --> 00:52:33.690 align:middle line:84% government advisor in the British government, 00:52:33.690 --> 00:52:34.848 align:middle line:90% and also an author. 00:52:34.848 --> 00:52:36.890 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: This is where I do know his name. 00:52:36.890 --> 00:52:38.490 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Probably, well, there 00:52:38.490 --> 00:52:41.410 align:middle line:84% are two possibilities why you have heard of him. 00:52:41.410 --> 00:52:47.290 align:middle line:84% He is the guy who wrote a book or small book 00:52:47.290 --> 00:52:50.850 align:middle line:84% about the concept of the two cultures, 00:52:50.850 --> 00:52:53.810 align:middle line:84% the culture of scientists and engineers on the one 00:52:53.810 --> 00:53:01.550 align:middle line:84% hand versus the literature and arts people on the other hand, 00:53:01.550 --> 00:53:03.343 align:middle line:84% and how the two cultures live side by side, 00:53:03.343 --> 00:53:05.010 align:middle line:84% but really didn't talk the same language 00:53:05.010 --> 00:53:05.870 align:middle line:84% and didn't interact with each other. 00:53:05.870 --> 00:53:07.490 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: The right brain, left brain theory there. 00:53:07.490 --> 00:53:07.910 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Exactly. 00:53:07.910 --> 00:53:08.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's exactly where I know him from. 00:53:08.790 --> 00:53:12.210 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: That's what he's most famous for, probably. 00:53:12.210 --> 00:53:16.960 align:middle line:84% And when we were in Cambridge from summer of '61 to the summer 00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:21.540 align:middle line:84% of '63, it was shortly after he received-- 00:53:21.540 --> 00:53:24.920 align:middle line:84% I think it was called The Reid Prize, which 00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:32.240 align:middle line:84% was an award for Literature in England. 00:53:32.240 --> 00:53:36.680 align:middle line:84% And it really upset some of the people in the literature 00:53:36.680 --> 00:53:37.740 align:middle line:90% and arts community. 00:53:37.740 --> 00:53:39.080 align:middle line:90% There was a big controversy. 00:53:39.080 --> 00:53:40.380 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Because he was science? 00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:41.660 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, because he was a scientist. 00:53:41.660 --> 00:53:43.760 align:middle line:84% And some of the people in the literature community 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:45.180 align:middle line:84% didn't think he was a real writer. 00:53:45.180 --> 00:53:48.280 align:middle line:84% But the other thing he wrote-- he wrote several books, quite 00:53:48.280 --> 00:53:51.840 align:middle line:84% a few books, novels, most of them 00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:55.360 align:middle line:84% centered around life in Cambridge. 00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:57.120 align:middle line:90% One was called The Masters. 00:53:57.120 --> 00:53:58.640 align:middle line:84% And the whole series, I think, was 00:53:58.640 --> 00:54:01.500 align:middle line:84% called Strangers and Brothers or something. 00:54:01.500 --> 00:54:02.860 align:middle line:90% It was all about Cambridge life. 00:54:02.860 --> 00:54:04.100 align:middle line:90% And they're excellent books. 00:54:04.100 --> 00:54:07.720 align:middle line:84% I think I've read them all, but maybe not all of them. 00:54:07.720 --> 00:54:10.380 align:middle line:84% Because he was part of the Cambridge community, 00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:12.560 align:middle line:84% both as a student, a graduate student, or they 00:54:12.560 --> 00:54:15.590 align:middle line:84% called call them research students, and there as 00:54:15.590 --> 00:54:17.670 align:middle line:84% a faculty member for quite a few years 00:54:17.670 --> 00:54:19.482 align:middle line:84% before he went off to government. 00:54:19.482 --> 00:54:21.690 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And what context did you meet him in? 00:54:21.690 --> 00:54:26.850 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I played two roles when I was in Cambridge. 00:54:26.850 --> 00:54:29.110 align:middle line:84% On the one hand, I was a postdoc, 00:54:29.110 --> 00:54:30.490 align:middle line:90% which Michigan was supporting. 00:54:30.490 --> 00:54:33.790 align:middle line:84% On the other hand, I was also enrolled as a student. 00:54:33.790 --> 00:54:39.190 align:middle line:84% Well, at that time, there was an organization in Cambridge known 00:54:39.190 --> 00:54:44.370 align:middle line:84% as Friends of Cambridge, which was, at the time we were there, 00:54:44.370 --> 00:54:47.530 align:middle line:84% I think, was organized by Sir Lady Mott, 00:54:47.530 --> 00:54:49.830 align:middle line:90% who was Nevill Mott's wife. 00:54:49.830 --> 00:54:55.090 align:middle line:84% And it was for visiting scholars and postdocs. 00:54:55.090 --> 00:55:00.230 align:middle line:84% There were probably, I don't know, 25 plus or minus 5 00:55:00.230 --> 00:55:02.430 align:middle line:90% people in it at any given time. 00:55:02.430 --> 00:55:06.672 align:middle line:84% And they would have different events every other month 00:55:06.672 --> 00:55:07.630 align:middle line:90% or something like that. 00:55:07.630 --> 00:55:08.870 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: To make you feel welcome 00:55:08.870 --> 00:55:10.590 align:middle line:84% and to help you integrate in the community. 00:55:10.590 --> 00:55:12.510 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And to get to know each other sort of thing. 00:55:12.510 --> 00:55:13.190 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Very cool. 00:55:13.190 --> 00:55:15.010 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And one of the events they had 00:55:15.010 --> 00:55:17.895 align:middle line:90% was CP Snow as a speaker. 00:55:17.895 --> 00:55:19.270 align:middle line:84% And I can still picture the room. 00:55:19.270 --> 00:55:23.830 align:middle line:84% It was in an old, probably late 1800s classroom, steep incline, 00:55:23.830 --> 00:55:27.450 align:middle line:84% not very big, flat, wooden benches and a flat table 00:55:27.450 --> 00:55:32.010 align:middle line:84% in front of you, just long rows, and a podium up in front. 00:55:32.010 --> 00:55:34.490 align:middle line:90% And so Mary and I went to this. 00:55:34.490 --> 00:55:38.330 align:middle line:84% And CP Snow was a big, heavy guy. 00:55:38.330 --> 00:55:43.850 align:middle line:84% And I don't know how old he was at the time, maybe, well, 00:55:43.850 --> 00:55:48.370 align:middle line:84% probably in his mid 60s, something like that. 00:55:48.370 --> 00:55:50.810 align:middle line:84% And he stood behind the podium and talked 00:55:50.810 --> 00:55:52.710 align:middle line:90% about his life and experiences. 00:55:52.710 --> 00:55:56.130 align:middle line:84% And one of the things he said was he 00:55:56.130 --> 00:56:01.570 align:middle line:84% had lived in Britain and Europe and Canada and the United 00:56:01.570 --> 00:56:02.610 align:middle line:90% States. 00:56:02.610 --> 00:56:03.807 align:middle line:90% And he made the comment-- 00:56:03.807 --> 00:56:06.390 align:middle line:84% I may not have it exactly right, but I've got the gist of it-- 00:56:06.390 --> 00:56:11.880 align:middle line:84% that living in Europe was much more comfortable than living 00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:13.640 align:middle line:90% in North America. 00:56:13.640 --> 00:56:15.880 align:middle line:84% Well, that really set Mary off because-- 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:16.960 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:21.980 align:middle line:84% We were living in a house that was only 10 years old. 00:56:21.980 --> 00:56:25.420 align:middle line:84% It was built in 1949, not too long after the war. 00:56:25.420 --> 00:56:30.480 align:middle line:84% In fact, there were a lot of economic signs of World War II 00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:31.260 align:middle line:90% still in England. 00:56:31.260 --> 00:56:34.280 align:middle line:84% When we were there, things were still fairly tough. 00:56:34.280 --> 00:56:35.900 align:middle line:84% The house had no central heating. 00:56:35.900 --> 00:56:39.220 align:middle line:84% It had no central hot water heater. 00:56:39.220 --> 00:56:43.420 align:middle line:84% It had windows that didn't close. 00:56:43.420 --> 00:56:46.680 align:middle line:84% And so the wind would whistle through them in the wintertime. 00:56:46.680 --> 00:56:48.620 align:middle line:84% And the first winter we were there-- 00:56:48.620 --> 00:56:51.132 align:middle line:84% I think this was in the spring of the next year, one 00:56:51.132 --> 00:56:51.840 align:middle line:90% way or the other. 00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:54.663 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: After the first winter, yeah. 00:56:54.663 --> 00:56:56.080 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I've got a newspaper I 00:56:56.080 --> 00:56:59.457 align:middle line:84% saved, said it was the worst winter since 1740. 00:56:59.457 --> 00:57:00.540 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, great. 00:57:00.540 --> 00:57:02.300 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: The Cam River froze over. 00:57:02.300 --> 00:57:04.520 align:middle line:90% We had snow on the ground. 00:57:04.520 --> 00:57:08.510 align:middle line:84% We couldn't get coal for heating because they claim the coal was 00:57:08.510 --> 00:57:11.390 align:middle line:90% frozen in the piles. 00:57:11.390 --> 00:57:14.990 align:middle line:84% So obviously, my wife didn't think it 00:57:14.990 --> 00:57:16.630 align:middle line:90% was particularly comfortable. 00:57:16.630 --> 00:57:19.892 align:middle line:84% We'd had a two-bedroom apartment when we left Ann Arbor. 00:57:19.892 --> 00:57:21.850 align:middle line:84% It was central heating, and a washer and dryer. 00:57:21.850 --> 00:57:24.350 align:middle line:84% Oh, we didn't have a washer and dryer, or any of that stuff. 00:57:24.350 --> 00:57:26.930 align:middle line:84% And she had two kids in diapers at the time. 00:57:26.930 --> 00:57:27.710 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And this here is this guy going to tell her. 00:57:27.710 --> 00:57:29.270 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: This guy says it's more comfortable 00:57:29.270 --> 00:57:31.450 align:middle line:84% living in Europe than in the United States. 00:57:31.450 --> 00:57:35.030 align:middle line:84% Well, when it came to the question-and-answer period, 00:57:35.030 --> 00:57:39.670 align:middle line:84% he sat down in a an old desk chair with arms on it 00:57:39.670 --> 00:57:40.602 align:middle line:90% behind the podium. 00:57:40.602 --> 00:57:42.310 align:middle line:84% And we were right in front of the podium. 00:57:42.310 --> 00:57:43.570 align:middle line:90% So she couldn't see him. 00:57:43.570 --> 00:57:45.150 align:middle line:90% He couldn't see her. 00:57:45.150 --> 00:57:47.810 align:middle line:84% And different people asked questions. 00:57:47.810 --> 00:57:53.550 align:middle line:84% And so she asked the question, something to the effect, how can 00:57:53.550 --> 00:57:55.430 align:middle line:84% you possibly say it's more comfortable than-- 00:57:55.430 --> 00:57:56.290 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:57:56.290 --> 00:57:57.693 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Based on what? 00:57:57.693 --> 00:57:59.110 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, of course, 00:57:59.110 --> 00:58:01.173 align:middle line:84% he heard this obviously irritated-- 00:58:01.173 --> 00:58:02.090 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Woman. 00:58:02.090 --> 00:58:03.798 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --young woman ask a question. 00:58:03.798 --> 00:58:06.810 align:middle line:84% And he grabbed his chair and bounced across the stage 00:58:06.810 --> 00:58:08.850 align:middle line:84% to get away from behind the stand, so he 00:58:08.850 --> 00:58:10.570 align:middle line:90% could see who it was. 00:58:10.570 --> 00:58:13.370 align:middle line:84% And of course, he was talking about living 00:58:13.370 --> 00:58:17.050 align:middle line:84% in towns that were tightly packed where 00:58:17.050 --> 00:58:19.360 align:middle line:90% you could walk to everything. 00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:21.110 align:middle line:84% He wasn't talking about creature comforts. 00:58:21.110 --> 00:58:22.090 align:middle line:90% He was talking about-- 00:58:22.090 --> 00:58:24.250 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Urban development and you know-- 00:58:24.250 --> 00:58:26.890 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So, anyway, that's the way we met. 00:58:26.890 --> 00:58:28.950 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You'll always remember CP Snow. 00:58:28.950 --> 00:58:30.150 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, no doubt about it. 00:58:30.150 --> 00:58:31.250 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Tell me about some of the other names 00:58:31.250 --> 00:58:32.850 align:middle line:90% you mentioned. 00:58:32.850 --> 00:58:35.550 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, let me go on a little bit more about CP Snow 00:58:35.550 --> 00:58:41.250 align:middle line:84% because the books he wrote, the ones about The Masters 00:58:41.250 --> 00:58:45.650 align:middle line:84% and the series that were called, I think, Strangers and Brothers. 00:58:45.650 --> 00:58:52.530 align:middle line:84% In those books, there's a character named Getliffe. 00:58:52.530 --> 00:58:54.590 align:middle line:84% I forget the first name he had for him. 00:58:54.590 --> 00:58:56.150 align:middle line:84% But Getliffe, anyway, was his name. 00:58:56.150 --> 00:58:59.970 align:middle line:84% And he was an academic in Cambridge 00:58:59.970 --> 00:59:02.350 align:middle line:90% who was a physical scientist. 00:59:02.350 --> 00:59:03.780 align:middle line:90% And he was a new breed. 00:59:03.780 --> 00:59:06.920 align:middle line:84% He was a new breed of academic scientist 00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:11.200 align:middle line:84% who was involved in consulting for industry, 00:59:11.200 --> 00:59:13.280 align:middle line:84% and working on real-world problems, 00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:17.060 align:middle line:84% and advising government agencies, and raising money. 00:59:17.060 --> 00:59:17.560 align:middle line:90% And he was. 00:59:17.560 --> 00:59:21.700 align:middle line:84% I mean, he was just a new breed of cat on the faculty. 00:59:21.700 --> 00:59:25.880 align:middle line:84% Well, Getliffe is fashioned after Philip Bowden, the guy 00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:27.040 align:middle line:90% that I worked for. 00:59:27.040 --> 00:59:30.840 align:middle line:84% And they were buddies as graduate students together. 00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:33.480 align:middle line:84% And if you read the books and you knew Philip Bowden, 00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:34.500 align:middle line:90% you couldn't miss it. 00:59:34.500 --> 00:59:37.080 align:middle line:84% I mean, it was just so obvious, even 00:59:37.080 --> 00:59:40.500 align:middle line:84% to the point of describing Bowden's house. 00:59:40.500 --> 00:59:43.340 align:middle line:84% In the book, he talks about going and visiting Getliffe. 00:59:43.340 --> 00:59:45.820 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: They say write about what you knew. 00:59:45.820 --> 00:59:47.140 align:middle line:90% And he knew about Bowden. 00:59:47.140 --> 00:59:49.980 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: We had been in his house at a holiday party. 00:59:49.980 --> 00:59:50.880 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you could recognize it. 00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:52.088 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: We recognized it. 00:59:52.088 --> 00:59:54.360 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Now, what did Bowden do besides 00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:55.100 align:middle line:90% be your mentor? 00:59:55.100 --> 00:59:57.017 align:middle line:84% But, I mean, what was his field of experience? 00:59:57.017 --> 00:59:58.960 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: He was a-- 00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:00.390 align:middle line:90% he was a-- 01:00:00.390 --> 01:00:01.510 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Physicist? 01:00:01.510 --> 01:00:03.052 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, he was a physicist. 01:00:03.052 --> 01:00:05.390 align:middle line:84% Well, he started out as a chemist, a chemist 01:00:05.390 --> 01:00:07.630 align:middle line:90% and surface chemist, really. 01:00:07.630 --> 01:00:10.470 align:middle line:84% At the time I was there, he was in the Cavendish lab 01:00:10.470 --> 01:00:12.210 align:middle line:90% in the physics department. 01:00:12.210 --> 01:00:14.750 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You mentioned that they selected him 01:00:14.750 --> 01:00:19.170 align:middle line:84% because he was world renowned, the University of Michigan. 01:00:19.170 --> 01:00:23.830 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, he and his colleague 01:00:23.830 --> 01:00:26.755 align:middle line:84% named David Tabor, who was also somebody there that I worked-- 01:00:26.755 --> 01:00:28.130 align:middle line:84% Bowden and Tabor, I mean, they're 01:00:28.130 --> 01:00:30.790 align:middle line:84% names that go simultaneous together, 01:00:30.790 --> 01:00:34.030 align:middle line:84% but Bowden was the more senior person-- 01:00:34.030 --> 01:00:38.310 align:middle line:84% were the top people in the world in the area of friction 01:00:38.310 --> 01:00:39.090 align:middle line:90% and wear. 01:00:39.090 --> 01:00:40.230 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: OK, so that's what they were-- 01:00:40.230 --> 01:00:40.870 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, surface physics. 01:00:40.870 --> 01:00:42.162 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: the experts at. 01:00:42.162 --> 01:00:45.870 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Surface physics things of all kinds, 01:00:45.870 --> 01:00:51.670 align:middle line:84% friction and wear, and catalysis, and fast reactions, 01:00:51.670 --> 01:00:53.730 align:middle line:84% like explosives and that sort of thing. 01:00:53.730 --> 01:00:55.470 align:middle line:90% That was their area. 01:00:55.470 --> 01:00:58.350 align:middle line:84% That's why they wanted me to go work with him. 01:00:58.350 --> 01:01:00.350 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Would they say go work with him, 01:01:00.350 --> 01:01:03.670 align:middle line:84% actually work on experiments that he was conducting 01:01:03.670 --> 01:01:04.758 align:middle line:90% or work on his research? 01:01:04.758 --> 01:01:06.050 align:middle line:90% Or what were you doing for him? 01:01:06.050 --> 01:01:09.150 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I worked on research that he had brought in. 01:01:09.150 --> 01:01:11.840 align:middle line:84% He had a lot of industry contacts, 01:01:11.840 --> 01:01:14.090 align:middle line:84% a lot of industry money, and a lot of government money 01:01:14.090 --> 01:01:14.730 align:middle line:90% in the lab. 01:01:14.730 --> 01:01:17.005 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So not on GTRI kind of thing so that-- 01:01:17.005 --> 01:01:18.630 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, no, he was an academic. 01:01:18.630 --> 01:01:21.872 align:middle line:84% So it was an academic position, like working for a faculty 01:01:21.872 --> 01:01:22.830 align:middle line:90% member here, a postdoc. 01:01:22.830 --> 01:01:24.390 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And then, when the postdocs come in, 01:01:24.390 --> 01:01:26.638 align:middle line:84% that's what they do is do the actual legwork on that. 01:01:26.638 --> 01:01:28.930 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: There were a lot of doctoral students there 01:01:28.930 --> 01:01:32.150 align:middle line:84% and a lot-- not a lot, number of few postdocs. 01:01:32.150 --> 01:01:35.963 align:middle line:84% I think there were about 40 people total in the lab. 01:01:35.963 --> 01:01:38.130 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And the lab was run by these two who 01:01:38.130 --> 01:01:39.110 align:middle line:90% attracted the money. 01:01:39.110 --> 01:01:40.110 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Right, yeah. 01:01:40.110 --> 01:01:42.568 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Now I got a complete picture of what it is. 01:01:42.568 --> 01:01:44.930 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And it was in the Cavendish lab 01:01:44.930 --> 01:01:46.995 align:middle line:90% at that time in Cambridge. 01:01:46.995 --> 01:01:48.370 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Interesting work? 01:01:48.370 --> 01:01:50.203 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it was a great experience. 01:01:50.203 --> 01:01:51.943 align:middle line:84% Oh, yeah, yeah, very interesting. 01:01:51.943 --> 01:01:54.110 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You said you learned a lot from him. 01:01:54.110 --> 01:01:56.623 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I learned a lot watching him. 01:01:56.623 --> 01:01:57.540 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Ah-ha. 01:01:57.540 --> 01:02:01.560 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: He was very much like the character 01:02:01.560 --> 01:02:06.560 align:middle line:84% in Snow's book, Getliffe, in that he always 01:02:06.560 --> 01:02:10.160 align:middle line:84% had industry visitors coming, other academic visitors 01:02:10.160 --> 01:02:13.000 align:middle line:84% from all over the world coming, a lot of government 01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:15.680 align:middle line:84% people coming up from London to visit 01:02:15.680 --> 01:02:21.540 align:middle line:84% the lab, just an incredibly interesting character. 01:02:21.540 --> 01:02:24.360 align:middle line:84% He was born and raised in Tasmania 01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:27.400 align:middle line:84% and went to college there, and then 01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:32.300 align:middle line:84% came to Cambridge on a scholarship from Australia, 01:02:32.300 --> 01:02:37.360 align:middle line:84% I guess, or Tasmania, and did his doctoral work in Cambridge, 01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:39.240 align:middle line:90% and then just stayed on. 01:02:39.240 --> 01:02:41.840 align:middle line:84% And he did a lot of work on friction and wear, 01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:44.920 align:middle line:84% and Explosives, which, now, remember this is in the '30s. 01:02:44.920 --> 01:02:46.100 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Mm-hmm. 01:02:46.100 --> 01:02:50.460 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And when World War II came along, 01:02:50.460 --> 01:02:54.640 align:middle line:84% he was very involved in doing work for the Ministry of Defense 01:02:54.640 --> 01:02:58.262 align:middle line:90% in England for industry. 01:02:58.262 --> 01:02:59.970 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That really elevated him. 01:02:59.970 --> 01:03:04.350 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I mean, he was considered, their lab, 01:03:04.350 --> 01:03:08.190 align:middle line:84% a national treasure, to the point where, 01:03:08.190 --> 01:03:13.950 align:middle line:84% when World War II really got hot for the British, 01:03:13.950 --> 01:03:18.530 align:middle line:84% the government there decided to pack his lab up, 01:03:18.530 --> 01:03:20.710 align:middle line:84% lock, stock, and barrel, and move it to Australia, 01:03:20.710 --> 01:03:24.250 align:middle line:84% so they would be out of the war zone to work. 01:03:24.250 --> 01:03:26.175 align:middle line:84% And he went there for about four years, 01:03:26.175 --> 01:03:28.050 align:middle line:84% I think, for the duration of the war, anyway, 01:03:28.050 --> 01:03:29.070 align:middle line:90% and then came back to-- 01:03:29.070 --> 01:03:29.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: When it was safe. 01:03:29.790 --> 01:03:32.248 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --to Cambridge and spent the rest of his career 01:03:32.248 --> 01:03:33.070 align:middle line:90% there. 01:03:33.070 --> 01:03:35.710 align:middle line:90% But I've often described this. 01:03:35.710 --> 01:03:39.950 align:middle line:84% Each year, I think it was probably in the spring, 01:03:39.950 --> 01:03:45.130 align:middle line:84% he would invite the sponsors from the government in London 01:03:45.130 --> 01:03:49.510 align:middle line:84% to come up for a day to see the work that was being done. 01:03:49.510 --> 01:03:51.950 align:middle line:84% And they would come up on the train in the morning. 01:03:51.950 --> 01:03:55.600 align:middle line:84% And he would send taxis to the railway station to pick them up. 01:03:55.600 --> 01:03:59.800 align:middle line:84% It would be, I don't know, maybe 10, 12 of them, 01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:02.380 align:middle line:84% something like that, from different ministries. 01:04:02.380 --> 01:04:04.060 align:middle line:84% And they would come back to the lab 01:04:04.060 --> 01:04:07.580 align:middle line:84% and hear two or three prepared lectures 01:04:07.580 --> 01:04:10.860 align:middle line:84% by people in the lab talking about projects that they 01:04:10.860 --> 01:04:12.300 align:middle line:90% were interested in. 01:04:12.300 --> 01:04:14.500 align:middle line:84% And then everybody would go to lunch 01:04:14.500 --> 01:04:17.100 align:middle line:84% at Caius College, which was the college that Bowden 01:04:17.100 --> 01:04:18.860 align:middle line:90% and Tabor belonged to. 01:04:18.860 --> 01:04:24.960 align:middle line:84% And a Cambridge College meal for a fellow of the college, 01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:27.260 align:middle line:84% which Bowden and Tabor both were, 01:04:27.260 --> 01:04:33.540 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's something out of a movie, very, very well 01:04:33.540 --> 01:04:39.740 align:middle line:84% prepared, excellent food, tablecloths, wine and sherry 01:04:39.740 --> 01:04:41.380 align:middle line:84% beforehand, and wine for the meal, 01:04:41.380 --> 01:04:42.838 align:middle line:84% and pour it at the end of the meal. 01:04:42.838 --> 01:04:43.977 align:middle line:90% And you name it. 01:04:43.977 --> 01:04:45.560 align:middle line:84% And that would take a couple of hours. 01:04:45.560 --> 01:04:47.900 align:middle line:84% And then we'd go back to the lab. 01:04:47.900 --> 01:04:51.260 align:middle line:84% And these visitors would go around to each individual's lab 01:04:51.260 --> 01:04:55.340 align:middle line:84% and talked to them one on one in their lab. 01:04:55.340 --> 01:04:58.232 align:middle line:84% And then, along about 3:30 or so, they'd all start getting 01:04:58.232 --> 01:05:00.440 align:middle line:84% in cabs, going back to the railway station to go back 01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:01.440 align:middle line:90% to London. 01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:03.640 align:middle line:84% And then the money would show up. 01:05:03.640 --> 01:05:04.515 align:middle line:90% The money would come. 01:05:04.515 --> 01:05:06.765 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I knew the money was going to show up. 01:05:06.765 --> 01:05:08.720 align:middle line:84% I was thinking, I know what this is all about. 01:05:08.720 --> 01:05:10.720 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: His ability to work these people was 01:05:10.720 --> 01:05:11.500 align:middle line:90% just incredible. 01:05:11.500 --> 01:05:13.300 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And that's what you were learning by watching. 01:05:13.300 --> 01:05:14.520 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Absolutely, watching. 01:05:14.520 --> 01:05:16.200 align:middle line:84% I mean, he was just a master at dealing 01:05:16.200 --> 01:05:19.140 align:middle line:90% with visitors and sponsors. 01:05:19.140 --> 01:05:21.060 align:middle line:90% And he did a lot of consulting. 01:05:21.060 --> 01:05:23.800 align:middle line:90% He did a lot of traveling. 01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:28.545 align:middle line:84% He was a very prominent guy and a nice guy, too, 01:05:28.545 --> 01:05:29.420 align:middle line:90% very interesting guy. 01:05:29.420 --> 01:05:30.700 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So it was a real privilege for you. 01:05:30.700 --> 01:05:31.060 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 01:05:31.060 --> 01:05:33.640 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And I can see where that was important, 01:05:33.640 --> 01:05:36.760 align:middle line:84% which you wouldn't have known at that time, but for your future, 01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:38.023 align:middle line:90% for your future to have that. 01:05:38.023 --> 01:05:39.440 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But then, other people 01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:42.840 align:middle line:90% that you met, like I said-- 01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:46.640 align:middle line:84% well, just to get back to the Friends of Cambridge thing, 01:05:46.640 --> 01:05:49.550 align:middle line:84% one night, they had scheduled an event 01:05:49.550 --> 01:05:56.150 align:middle line:84% that two speakers were to be Francis Crick and Perutz. 01:05:56.150 --> 01:05:58.310 align:middle line:84% Crick and Watson and Perutz are the ones 01:05:58.310 --> 01:06:01.190 align:middle line:84% who got the Nobel Prize for the double helix. 01:06:01.190 --> 01:06:04.230 align:middle line:84% And it happened totally by accident 01:06:04.230 --> 01:06:07.670 align:middle line:84% that, the morning of that event, is when it was announced 01:06:07.670 --> 01:06:09.230 align:middle line:90% that they got the Nobel Prize. 01:06:09.230 --> 01:06:10.710 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, really? 01:06:10.710 --> 01:06:12.130 align:middle line:90% You were right there with them? 01:06:12.130 --> 01:06:13.870 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So they came that evening. 01:06:13.870 --> 01:06:16.490 align:middle line:84% And they brought their helical model and talked about it. 01:06:16.490 --> 01:06:18.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: They were all full of themselves, then. 01:06:18.210 --> 01:06:20.460 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Watson wasn't there because, by that time, 01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:22.350 align:middle line:84% he'd already gone back to the United States. 01:06:22.350 --> 01:06:23.417 align:middle line:90% So you got to see them. 01:06:23.417 --> 01:06:25.750 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You were right at the window of history, 01:06:25.750 --> 01:06:26.250 align:middle line:90% though. 01:06:26.250 --> 01:06:27.430 align:middle line:90% That's so cool. 01:06:27.430 --> 01:06:31.730 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And the Cavendish professor, 01:06:31.730 --> 01:06:34.030 align:middle line:84% which means the guy who was head of the physics 01:06:34.030 --> 01:06:37.965 align:middle line:84% program at Cambridge, was Sir Nevill Mott, who you probably 01:06:37.965 --> 01:06:38.590 align:middle line:90% never heard of. 01:06:38.590 --> 01:06:42.030 align:middle line:84% But he, at the time, he was master of Caius College. 01:06:42.030 --> 01:06:49.020 align:middle line:84% And he was a very prominent scientist in material science. 01:06:49.020 --> 01:06:50.780 align:middle line:90% And so got to meet him. 01:06:50.780 --> 01:06:52.200 align:middle line:90% And you'd see him occasionally. 01:06:52.200 --> 01:06:54.040 align:middle line:90% And, I mean, people were around. 01:06:54.040 --> 01:06:55.540 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: This was just really 01:06:55.540 --> 01:06:57.605 align:middle line:84% a super experience for you to have. 01:06:57.605 --> 01:06:59.980 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, now, my wife wasn't all that keen on it 01:06:59.980 --> 01:07:00.380 align:middle line:90% because-- 01:07:00.380 --> 01:07:02.338 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, she paid her dues for you 01:07:02.338 --> 01:07:04.800 align:middle line:84% at that time because of creature comforts, like you say. 01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:05.980 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And then we had another child 01:07:05.980 --> 01:07:06.460 align:middle line:90% while we were there. 01:07:06.460 --> 01:07:07.060 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Really? 01:07:07.060 --> 01:07:09.020 align:middle line:84% So you had the three boys while you were there. 01:07:09.020 --> 01:07:12.935 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: The third boy was born in Cambridge, yeah. 01:07:12.935 --> 01:07:14.560 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: She had her hands full. 01:07:14.560 --> 01:07:15.320 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, absolutely. 01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:17.403 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: She definitely had her hands full. 01:07:17.403 --> 01:07:22.060 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, we were there maybe a couple of months. 01:07:22.060 --> 01:07:25.740 align:middle line:90% We had two kids at the time. 01:07:25.740 --> 01:07:33.580 align:middle line:84% Well, Jim was probably, at most, 14 months old. 01:07:33.580 --> 01:07:38.080 align:middle line:84% And Matt would've have been probably two and a half, 01:07:38.080 --> 01:07:39.540 align:middle line:90% I guess. 01:07:39.540 --> 01:07:43.660 align:middle line:84% And we got a call from somebody who 01:07:43.660 --> 01:07:47.480 align:middle line:84% had an au pair from France, a young girl who was there 01:07:47.480 --> 01:07:49.920 align:middle line:90% to learn English in Cambridge. 01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:52.060 align:middle line:84% And they were out in the country someplace. 01:07:52.060 --> 01:07:54.820 align:middle line:84% And there was no transportation for this girl to get to class. 01:07:54.820 --> 01:07:57.360 align:middle line:84% And so she was looking for a different place to be. 01:07:57.360 --> 01:07:59.448 align:middle line:84% So somebody suggested that we might be 01:07:59.448 --> 01:08:00.740 align:middle line:90% somebody who would take her in. 01:08:00.740 --> 01:08:01.970 align:middle line:90% So we took her in. 01:08:01.970 --> 01:08:03.720 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did you have room for her? 01:08:03.720 --> 01:08:05.400 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it was crowded. 01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:07.220 align:middle line:84% Well, we had a three-bedroom place. 01:08:07.220 --> 01:08:08.700 align:middle line:84% I mean, they were very small rooms. 01:08:08.700 --> 01:08:09.480 align:middle line:84% But it was three-bedroomed place. 01:08:09.480 --> 01:08:11.355 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: All of England is very small. 01:08:11.355 --> 01:08:14.980 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And so she lived with us for, I think, 01:08:14.980 --> 01:08:17.100 align:middle line:90% until Paul was born. 01:08:17.100 --> 01:08:18.979 align:middle line:84% And then we obviously didn't have room. 01:08:18.979 --> 01:08:19.521 align:middle line:90% So she moved. 01:08:19.521 --> 01:08:21.521 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But still, that was a little bit 01:08:21.521 --> 01:08:22.380 align:middle line:90% of a help for Mary. 01:08:22.380 --> 01:08:25.720 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And, well, she wasn't much younger 01:08:25.720 --> 01:08:27.840 align:middle line:90% than we were at the time. 01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:30.340 align:middle line:84% And they've become lifelong friends. 01:08:30.340 --> 01:08:31.720 align:middle line:90% We visited her several times. 01:08:31.720 --> 01:08:32.120 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Really? 01:08:32.120 --> 01:08:32.899 align:middle line:90% Even to now? 01:08:32.899 --> 01:08:35.880 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah, yeah, we still communicate. 01:08:35.880 --> 01:08:39.220 align:middle line:84% When I go to Georgia Tech, Lorraine, 01:08:39.220 --> 01:08:40.262 align:middle line:90% sometimes I go visit her. 01:08:40.262 --> 01:08:41.803 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Isn't that wonderful? 01:08:41.803 --> 01:08:44.350 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Mary's visited her with me two or three times 01:08:44.350 --> 01:08:45.310 align:middle line:90% over the years. 01:08:45.310 --> 01:08:49.595 align:middle line:84% And our oldest son, Matt, he's taken his family to Europe. 01:08:49.595 --> 01:08:50.970 align:middle line:84% And they've gone and visited her. 01:08:50.970 --> 01:08:53.745 align:middle line:84% So, yeah, no, it was a great experience. 01:08:53.745 --> 01:08:55.870 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: All these things are so interesting 01:08:55.870 --> 01:08:58.529 align:middle line:84% when you look back at them and how they fell into your life. 01:08:58.529 --> 01:08:59.790 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: At the time-- 01:08:59.790 --> 01:09:00.830 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You weren't looking for it, 01:09:00.830 --> 01:09:01.229 align:middle line:90% and there it was. 01:09:01.229 --> 01:09:02.450 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: You don't think a whole lot about it. 01:09:02.450 --> 01:09:04.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did the two years go by fast for you? 01:09:04.790 --> 01:09:06.210 align:middle line:90% They probably didn't for Mary. 01:09:06.210 --> 01:09:07.649 align:middle line:90% But did they go by fast for you? 01:09:07.649 --> 01:09:08.170 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: I think so. 01:09:08.170 --> 01:09:08.470 align:middle line:90% I think so. 01:09:08.470 --> 01:09:09.109 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 01:09:09.109 --> 01:09:10.990 align:middle line:84% I don't pay much attention to time. 01:09:10.990 --> 01:09:12.090 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Time doesn't matter to you. 01:09:12.090 --> 01:09:12.910 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No. 01:09:12.910 --> 01:09:13.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Spoken is the true academic. 01:09:13.790 --> 01:09:14.750 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, right. 01:09:14.750 --> 01:09:17.069 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you were focused on the learning process 01:09:17.069 --> 01:09:18.486 align:middle line:84% and what you were gaining and what 01:09:18.486 --> 01:09:22.130 align:middle line:84% you were being exposed to, thinking, I'm going to go back. 01:09:22.130 --> 01:09:23.729 align:middle line:90% I've got a job to go back to. 01:09:23.729 --> 01:09:25.490 align:middle line:84% You knew you were going back to faculty. 01:09:25.490 --> 01:09:25.830 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 01:09:25.830 --> 01:09:27.770 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That had to be a heady thing. 01:09:27.770 --> 01:09:29.588 align:middle line:84% Not only did you go to a, excuse me, 01:09:29.588 --> 01:09:31.130 align:middle line:84% but better college than your brother, 01:09:31.130 --> 01:09:33.649 align:middle line:84% but you're going to go back and be faculty at that. 01:09:33.649 --> 01:09:34.357 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 01:09:34.357 --> 01:09:37.510 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I mean, because that was then and is now 01:09:37.510 --> 01:09:38.770 align:middle line:90% a very well recognized school. 01:09:38.770 --> 01:09:41.540 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, just to make a final statement 01:09:41.540 --> 01:09:43.458 align:middle line:84% about the creature comforts there, 01:09:43.458 --> 01:09:46.000 align:middle line:84% I said I had a newspaper from the first winter we were there. 01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:49.220 align:middle line:84% I said it was the worst winter since 1740. 01:09:49.220 --> 01:09:52.580 align:middle line:84% I have another newspaper from a different publisher 01:09:52.580 --> 01:09:53.840 align:middle line:90% in the next winter. 01:09:53.840 --> 01:09:56.400 align:middle line:84% The headline says, "the worst winter in living memory." 01:09:56.400 --> 01:09:56.900 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 01:09:56.900 --> 01:09:58.340 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, dear. 01:09:58.340 --> 01:09:59.805 align:middle line:90% So there are probably the two-- 01:09:59.805 --> 01:10:02.180 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And if you talk to people in England who were 01:10:02.180 --> 01:10:03.888 align:middle line:84% living at that time, they'll-- oh, yeah-- 01:10:03.888 --> 01:10:09.387 align:middle line:84% they remember '61, '62 and '62, '63. 01:10:09.387 --> 01:10:11.720 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: The way the Atlantans remember Snow Jam. 01:10:11.720 --> 01:10:14.240 align:middle line:84% It's one of those epic things that happened. 01:10:14.240 --> 01:10:15.900 align:middle line:84% So it wasn't the best of times as 01:10:15.900 --> 01:10:17.280 align:middle line:84% far as the weather was concerned, 01:10:17.280 --> 01:10:18.603 align:middle line:90% or the accommodations. 01:10:18.603 --> 01:10:20.020 align:middle line:84% Still had to be a good experience. 01:10:20.020 --> 01:10:21.520 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: We got traveling in. 01:10:21.520 --> 01:10:27.820 align:middle line:84% We went and visited this French au pair parents at her house 01:10:27.820 --> 01:10:34.000 align:middle line:84% on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day of '62, I guess. 01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:36.580 align:middle line:90% Yeah, '61 to '62. 01:10:36.580 --> 01:10:38.780 align:middle line:84% And we visited friends in Belgium 01:10:38.780 --> 01:10:40.320 align:middle line:90% who had been in Ann Arbor. 01:10:40.320 --> 01:10:45.020 align:middle line:84% And we knew military people who were over there. 01:10:45.020 --> 01:10:49.160 align:middle line:84% And we got together with them and went to Mallorca 01:10:49.160 --> 01:10:50.548 align:middle line:90% for a week vacation. 01:10:50.548 --> 01:10:52.340 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It all sounds very idyllic. 01:10:52.340 --> 01:10:52.680 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, it does. 01:10:52.680 --> 01:10:53.840 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Especially if you're a reader 01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:55.700 align:middle line:84% and you've read about all these places, 01:10:55.700 --> 01:10:57.300 align:middle line:90% it sounds quite charming. 01:10:57.300 --> 01:11:00.920 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, when we did those trips, at least some 01:11:00.920 --> 01:11:05.602 align:middle line:84% of them were in a 1949 shooting break. 01:11:05.602 --> 01:11:07.060 align:middle line:84% Now, that doesn't mean much to you. 01:11:07.060 --> 01:11:08.620 align:middle line:90% But this is '61. 01:11:08.620 --> 01:11:11.660 align:middle line:84% So it was a 12-year-old car that was not in very good shape. 01:11:11.660 --> 01:11:13.355 align:middle line:90% But it's all we could afford. 01:11:13.355 --> 01:11:14.980 align:middle line:84% And then the second year we were there, 01:11:14.980 --> 01:11:18.880 align:middle line:84% we bought a new German Ford that we 01:11:18.880 --> 01:11:21.260 align:middle line:84% kept in England for about six months 01:11:21.260 --> 01:11:23.260 align:middle line:84% and then brought home with us when we came home. 01:11:23.260 --> 01:11:25.343 align:middle line:84% So that was a little better, a little better deal. 01:11:25.343 --> 01:11:27.620 align:middle line:84% And we made lifelong friends in Cambridge. 01:11:27.620 --> 01:11:32.560 align:middle line:84% I mean, I shared a lab with a guy who was also married. 01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:34.540 align:middle line:84% He was maybe a year younger than me. 01:11:34.540 --> 01:11:37.040 align:middle line:84% And his wife was a year or two younger. 01:11:37.040 --> 01:11:39.342 align:middle line:84% And they had kids about same age we did. 01:11:39.342 --> 01:11:41.050 align:middle line:84% So we became very good friends with them. 01:11:41.050 --> 01:11:43.070 align:middle line:84% And we've gone back and forth with them several times. 01:11:43.070 --> 01:11:44.237 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: To this day. 01:11:44.237 --> 01:11:49.230 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: In fact, they came over last summer for our 50th 01:11:49.230 --> 01:11:50.490 align:middle line:90% wedding anniversary. 01:11:50.490 --> 01:11:54.170 align:middle line:84% And then we spent two and a half weeks traveling together, 01:11:54.170 --> 01:11:58.468 align:middle line:84% up to Kentucky and Michigan and Wisconsin and Chicago. 01:11:58.468 --> 01:11:59.510 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: How neat. 01:11:59.510 --> 01:12:00.550 align:middle line:90% Isn't that wonderful? 01:12:00.550 --> 01:12:01.010 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 01:12:01.010 --> 01:12:03.468 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Old friends that will stay friends forever. 01:12:03.468 --> 01:12:06.850 align:middle line:84% But I know, when you read about Cambridge and you read about it, 01:12:06.850 --> 01:12:08.130 align:middle line:90% it all sounds so charming. 01:12:08.130 --> 01:12:10.990 align:middle line:84% But the reality can be just a little more rigorous than that. 01:12:10.990 --> 01:12:11.570 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Well, it is. 01:12:11.570 --> 01:12:12.570 align:middle line:90% It is kind of charming. 01:12:12.570 --> 01:12:14.808 align:middle line:84% But it's not all sweetness and light. 01:12:14.808 --> 01:12:15.850 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: It's not. 01:12:15.850 --> 01:12:16.530 align:middle line:90% It's cold. 01:12:16.530 --> 01:12:17.238 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 01:12:17.238 --> 01:12:19.770 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Cold and hard and not always cheerful 01:12:19.770 --> 01:12:20.350 align:middle line:90% sunshine. 01:12:20.350 --> 01:12:23.190 align:middle line:90% 01:12:23.190 --> 01:12:25.190 align:middle line:84% I'm sure Mary was more than ready to come back 01:12:25.190 --> 01:12:27.610 align:middle line:84% when the two years you were granted-- 01:12:27.610 --> 01:12:30.580 align:middle line:84% did you stay there for some sort of ceremony to get your PhD? 01:12:30.580 --> 01:12:32.330 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, no, actually, when I left, 01:12:32.330 --> 01:12:34.290 align:middle line:90% I had finished writing it. 01:12:34.290 --> 01:12:37.420 align:middle line:90% But I hadn't undergone the exam. 01:12:37.420 --> 01:12:40.023 align:middle line:90% So they gave me a written exam. 01:12:40.023 --> 01:12:41.940 align:middle line:84% They don't have a requirement for presentation 01:12:41.940 --> 01:12:43.770 align:middle line:90% and an oral exam. 01:12:43.770 --> 01:12:45.020 align:middle line:90% I mean, they normally do that. 01:12:45.020 --> 01:12:47.000 align:middle line:84% But they don't have a requirement for it. 01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:50.900 align:middle line:90% So I did a written exam. 01:12:50.900 --> 01:12:52.320 align:middle line:84% They sent me a bunch of questions. 01:12:52.320 --> 01:12:54.573 align:middle line:84% And I wrote up my response and sent it back 01:12:54.573 --> 01:12:56.740 align:middle line:84% after I'd come back here because I had an obligation 01:12:56.740 --> 01:12:58.267 align:middle line:84% to get back and work at Michigan. 01:12:58.267 --> 01:12:59.600 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: I guess you did. 01:12:59.600 --> 01:13:01.520 align:middle line:84% They had invested all this money in you. 01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:02.520 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: So then-- 01:13:02.520 --> 01:13:04.760 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So we moved back to Ann Arbor? 01:13:04.760 --> 01:13:06.552 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I came back to Ann Arbor. 01:13:06.552 --> 01:13:08.052 align:middle line:84% But then the degree was officially-- 01:13:08.052 --> 01:13:09.844 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Granted a short time later. 01:13:09.844 --> 01:13:12.527 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Granted in, I think, in January or February of '64, 01:13:12.527 --> 01:13:13.360 align:middle line:90% something like that. 01:13:13.360 --> 01:13:17.900 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We know that, in '63, that summer of '63, 01:13:17.900 --> 01:13:19.603 align:middle line:90% you got a cash-paying job. 01:13:19.603 --> 01:13:20.520 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep, yeah. 01:13:20.520 --> 01:13:23.700 align:middle line:84% I went to work for GM research for the summer. 01:13:23.700 --> 01:13:27.760 align:middle line:84% I mean, they knew I was coming back to Ann Arbor. 01:13:27.760 --> 01:13:29.660 align:middle line:84% And so they hired me for the summer. 01:13:29.660 --> 01:13:30.940 align:middle line:90% Probably charity but-- 01:13:30.940 --> 01:13:31.770 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:13:31.770 --> 01:13:33.520 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It was cash money, though. 01:13:33.520 --> 01:13:34.800 align:middle line:90% That's the important part. 01:13:34.800 --> 01:13:36.600 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Another interesting contact 01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:40.120 align:middle line:84% in Cambridge, the project that I worked on in the lab 01:13:40.120 --> 01:13:45.760 align:middle line:84% was sponsored by a company called Midland Silicones, which 01:13:45.760 --> 01:13:49.920 align:middle line:84% was, and I think still is, the British subsidiary 01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:52.600 align:middle line:90% of Dow Corning Corporation. 01:13:52.600 --> 01:13:55.020 align:middle line:84% And so I went there and visited them. 01:13:55.020 --> 01:13:58.640 align:middle line:90% They were near Swansea in Wales. 01:13:58.640 --> 01:14:01.480 align:middle line:84% But because of that, they put me in touch 01:14:01.480 --> 01:14:05.880 align:middle line:84% with Dow Corning in Midland, Michigan 01:14:05.880 --> 01:14:07.100 align:middle line:90% when I got back to Michigan. 01:14:07.100 --> 01:14:08.660 align:middle line:84% So for quite a few years after that, 01:14:08.660 --> 01:14:11.440 align:middle line:84% I used to consult regularly for Dow Corning 01:14:11.440 --> 01:14:13.200 align:middle line:84% while I was at Michigan, and some 01:14:13.200 --> 01:14:15.868 align:middle line:84% after I came down to Georgia Tech. 01:14:15.868 --> 01:14:18.160 align:middle line:84% But, yeah, I came back and started teaching at Michigan 01:14:18.160 --> 01:14:19.617 align:middle line:90% in the fall of '63. 01:14:19.617 --> 01:14:21.700 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You come back with three children. 01:14:21.700 --> 01:14:21.960 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:23.780 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Were you looking for a house or an apartment 01:14:23.780 --> 01:14:24.920 align:middle line:90% this time? 01:14:24.920 --> 01:14:26.820 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: We were looking for a house. 01:14:26.820 --> 01:14:28.300 align:middle line:90% We bought a house. 01:14:28.300 --> 01:14:30.300 align:middle line:84% It was under construction when we bought it. 01:14:30.300 --> 01:14:31.680 align:middle line:90% So we had to-- 01:14:31.680 --> 01:14:33.510 align:middle line:84% well, for the summer, actually, Mary 01:14:33.510 --> 01:14:37.250 align:middle line:84% went to spent a little time in Grand Rapids, I think, 01:14:37.250 --> 01:14:38.170 align:middle line:90% with her parents. 01:14:38.170 --> 01:14:42.150 align:middle line:84% And then we rented an old house in Ann Arbor, 01:14:42.150 --> 01:14:44.850 align:middle line:84% up in the countryside, for the summer. 01:14:44.850 --> 01:14:50.190 align:middle line:84% And I stayed some of the time in the YMCA in Hamtramck, Michigan, 01:14:50.190 --> 01:14:51.990 align:middle line:90% to work at Warren. 01:14:51.990 --> 01:14:56.912 align:middle line:84% And then, I think, long about, maybe, October, 01:14:56.912 --> 01:14:57.870 align:middle line:90% the house was finished. 01:14:57.870 --> 01:14:59.357 align:middle line:90% And we moved into a new house. 01:14:59.357 --> 01:15:00.190 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Yay. 01:15:00.190 --> 01:15:01.570 align:middle line:90% I'm so happy for her. 01:15:01.570 --> 01:15:02.470 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 01:15:02.470 --> 01:15:04.170 align:middle line:84% Central heating, washer and dryer. 01:15:04.170 --> 01:15:05.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: She had enough room. 01:15:05.210 --> 01:15:06.810 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: All the comforts of home. 01:15:06.810 --> 01:15:08.852 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: She still had her hands full with 01:15:08.852 --> 01:15:09.790 align:middle line:90% the young'uns. 01:15:09.790 --> 01:15:11.742 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So we stayed there until '69. 01:15:11.742 --> 01:15:13.450 align:middle line:84% Then, when we came down here, we sold it. 01:15:13.450 --> 01:15:15.430 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Now talk about-- you were on faculty. 01:15:15.430 --> 01:15:15.710 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 01:15:15.710 --> 01:15:16.930 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Assistant professor. 01:15:16.930 --> 01:15:18.972 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yep, well, for the first three years. 01:15:18.972 --> 01:15:20.010 align:middle line:90% And then I was promoted. 01:15:20.010 --> 01:15:22.630 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Your teaching experience to that 01:15:22.630 --> 01:15:24.930 align:middle line:90% point had been TA and whatever. 01:15:24.930 --> 01:15:28.130 align:middle line:84% So this is now I'm in the classroom, full responsibility. 01:15:28.130 --> 01:15:29.657 align:middle line:90% How'd you feel about it? 01:15:29.657 --> 01:15:30.740 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, I like it. 01:15:30.740 --> 01:15:31.420 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: You liked it? 01:15:31.420 --> 01:15:32.040 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, I enjoyed it. 01:15:32.040 --> 01:15:33.123 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: It was OK? 01:15:33.123 --> 01:15:33.680 align:middle line:90% No surprises? 01:15:33.680 --> 01:15:34.198 align:middle line:90% 01:15:34.198 --> 01:15:35.740 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Not particularly, no, no. 01:15:35.740 --> 01:15:37.282 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You didn't miss being 01:15:37.282 --> 01:15:39.138 align:middle line:90% with all these researchers? 01:15:39.138 --> 01:15:40.180 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: It was just-- 01:15:40.180 --> 01:15:40.860 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It was a good life. 01:15:40.860 --> 01:15:41.520 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: --where I was going. 01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:43.920 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I mean, there were good people in Ann Arbor. 01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:47.060 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What was the political environment 01:15:47.060 --> 01:15:49.380 align:middle line:84% in Ann Arbor, Michigan, at the end of the-- 01:15:49.380 --> 01:15:50.000 align:middle line:90% not the end. 01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:51.360 align:middle line:90% This is the middle of the '60s. 01:15:51.360 --> 01:15:52.760 align:middle line:90% That's the Vietnam stuff. 01:15:52.760 --> 01:15:55.010 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, part of the reason I came down here. 01:15:55.010 --> 01:15:56.020 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:15:56.020 --> 01:15:56.920 align:middle line:90% No, seriously. 01:15:56.920 --> 01:15:59.140 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: A little bit more political 01:15:59.140 --> 01:15:59.995 align:middle line:90% than Georgia Tech. 01:15:59.995 --> 01:16:01.620 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, oh, absolutely, yeah. 01:16:01.620 --> 01:16:04.660 align:middle line:84% There were marches and demonstrations, 01:16:04.660 --> 01:16:06.780 align:middle line:90% and stand-ins and sit-ins. 01:16:06.780 --> 01:16:08.740 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you were exposed to all that 01:16:08.740 --> 01:16:09.680 align:middle line:90% when you were up there. 01:16:09.680 --> 01:16:11.638 align:middle line:84% There was a lot of that kind of stuff going on. 01:16:11.638 --> 01:16:15.340 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I remember I had a lab on the North campus 01:16:15.340 --> 01:16:16.000 align:middle line:90% and an office. 01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:18.240 align:middle line:84% But I also had an office in the main campus, 01:16:18.240 --> 01:16:21.263 align:middle line:84% which is where most of the classes were at that time. 01:16:21.263 --> 01:16:23.180 align:middle line:84% All of engineering now, I think, has moved out 01:16:23.180 --> 01:16:24.120 align:middle line:90% to the north campus. 01:16:24.120 --> 01:16:28.240 align:middle line:84% But at that time, we were mainly on the main campus. 01:16:28.240 --> 01:16:31.780 align:middle line:84% And I remember, across the hall from my office, 01:16:31.780 --> 01:16:35.360 align:middle line:84% was a small wing of the building that 01:16:35.360 --> 01:16:38.320 align:middle line:90% housed the placement center. 01:16:38.320 --> 01:16:42.080 align:middle line:84% And I remember when, I think it was the Navy, 01:16:42.080 --> 01:16:47.280 align:middle line:84% came to interview that the student activists came in 01:16:47.280 --> 01:16:50.140 align:middle line:90% and smashed up the place. 01:16:50.140 --> 01:16:52.560 align:middle line:84% I remember them interrupting seminars 01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:56.000 align:middle line:84% that were being given by people from the Naval Research 01:16:56.000 --> 01:16:59.080 align:middle line:90% Lab or the Army Research Lab. 01:16:59.080 --> 01:17:01.800 align:middle line:84% Or the FBI would come or CIA come and interview. 01:17:01.800 --> 01:17:04.320 align:middle line:84% And they'd have disruptions of those. 01:17:04.320 --> 01:17:06.580 align:middle line:90% It was not good at all. 01:17:06.580 --> 01:17:15.040 align:middle line:84% And the department was pretty heavily very right wing 01:17:15.040 --> 01:17:16.012 align:middle line:90% Republican. 01:17:16.012 --> 01:17:18.220 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You were more conservative than the-- 01:17:18.220 --> 01:17:19.800 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And there were a few-- 01:17:19.800 --> 01:17:21.440 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: --student body. 01:17:21.440 --> 01:17:23.040 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: --liberal Democrats. 01:17:23.040 --> 01:17:24.300 align:middle line:90% And Hansen was one of those. 01:17:24.300 --> 01:17:27.150 align:middle line:90% And I took after him. 01:17:27.150 --> 01:17:30.360 align:middle line:84% And so there was a lot-- oh, and never forget 01:17:30.360 --> 01:17:33.470 align:middle line:90% the, what was it, Goldwater? 01:17:33.470 --> 01:17:34.650 align:middle line:90% Who did he run against? 01:17:34.650 --> 01:17:40.290 align:middle line:90% Goldwater and-- was it Nixon? 01:17:40.290 --> 01:17:41.150 align:middle line:90% No. 01:17:41.150 --> 01:17:42.450 align:middle line:90% Who did Goldwater run against? 01:17:42.450 --> 01:17:43.950 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We should know that. 01:17:43.950 --> 01:17:46.630 align:middle line:90% I was sitting here blank, blank. 01:17:46.630 --> 01:17:49.052 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, maybe it was Goldwater and Kennedy. 01:17:49.052 --> 01:17:50.510 align:middle line:84% Maybe it was Goldwater and Kennedy. 01:17:50.510 --> 01:17:50.810 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: No. 01:17:50.810 --> 01:17:52.848 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Kennedy was elected just before-- 01:17:52.848 --> 01:17:53.890 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, no. 01:17:53.890 --> 01:17:55.890 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --before I left there to go to England. 01:17:55.890 --> 01:17:57.670 align:middle line:84% And I think it was Goldwater and Johnson. 01:17:57.670 --> 01:17:58.850 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He was assassinated. 01:17:58.850 --> 01:18:00.850 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, Goldwater and Johnson was the-- 01:18:00.850 --> 01:18:02.517 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, that's who it was. 01:18:02.517 --> 01:18:04.770 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Man, that was just nasty, really nasty. 01:18:04.770 --> 01:18:07.630 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: There was so much of a reaction to Vietnam. 01:18:07.630 --> 01:18:11.310 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Now, Hansen left, I think, in '65 or '66 01:18:11.310 --> 01:18:13.850 align:middle line:84% to come down here to become dean. 01:18:13.850 --> 01:18:16.910 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And that was a job, a career move for him. 01:18:16.910 --> 01:18:19.670 align:middle line:84% He was headhunted and went down there. 01:18:19.670 --> 01:18:22.870 align:middle line:90% Where was he from originally? 01:18:22.870 --> 01:18:24.340 align:middle line:90% What part of the country? 01:18:24.340 --> 01:18:27.580 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, the Midwest, undergraduate degree 01:18:27.580 --> 01:18:28.800 align:middle line:90% from Purdue. 01:18:28.800 --> 01:18:30.940 align:middle line:90% I'm not sure where-- 01:18:30.940 --> 01:18:33.410 align:middle line:84% I think either Indiana or Ohio, one of the two. 01:18:33.410 --> 01:18:35.160 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But he was a Midwesterner. 01:18:35.160 --> 01:18:39.323 align:middle line:84% So he was going to step down into the South 01:18:39.323 --> 01:18:40.240 align:middle line:90% when he took that job. 01:18:40.240 --> 01:18:45.820 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I told his story many times to student groups. 01:18:45.820 --> 01:18:47.780 align:middle line:84% I sometimes give a talk to student groups 01:18:47.780 --> 01:18:52.300 align:middle line:84% called The Serendipity in Career Planning. 01:18:52.300 --> 01:18:55.320 align:middle line:84% And the basic message is, don't worry about career planning. 01:18:55.320 --> 01:18:55.880 align:middle line:90% It'll happen. 01:18:55.880 --> 01:18:57.060 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: It happens. 01:18:57.060 --> 01:18:59.360 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And Hansen is my main example. 01:18:59.360 --> 01:19:02.080 align:middle line:84% I mean, my own situation, as I've already described, 01:19:02.080 --> 01:19:03.420 align:middle line:90% is a pretty good example. 01:19:03.420 --> 01:19:05.503 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's been very serendipitous, yes. 01:19:05.503 --> 01:19:08.700 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But he got a bachelor's degree 01:19:08.700 --> 01:19:12.220 align:middle line:84% in electrical engineering from Purdue. 01:19:12.220 --> 01:19:14.520 align:middle line:84% And I'm not sure what he did immediately after that. 01:19:14.520 --> 01:19:19.620 align:middle line:84% But beyond that, my first knowledge of what he did-- this 01:19:19.620 --> 01:19:21.700 align:middle line:90% is still before I met him. 01:19:21.700 --> 01:19:25.530 align:middle line:84% He was working for NASA at Lewis Research 01:19:25.530 --> 01:19:27.230 align:middle line:90% Center in Cleveland, Ohio. 01:19:27.230 --> 01:19:30.770 align:middle line:84% It's now called NASA Glenn, named after Senator Glenn. 01:19:30.770 --> 01:19:34.490 align:middle line:84% And he was an applied mathematician, basically, 01:19:34.490 --> 01:19:37.170 align:middle line:84% doing three-dimensional boundary layer, similarity solutions 01:19:37.170 --> 01:19:38.420 align:middle line:90% to three-dimensional boundary. 01:19:38.420 --> 01:19:40.650 align:middle line:90% That's why I got into it. 01:19:40.650 --> 01:19:44.090 align:middle line:84% I don't think his were-- yeah, anyway. 01:19:44.090 --> 01:19:47.850 align:middle line:84% And I know people who were there who worked with him at the time. 01:19:47.850 --> 01:19:50.970 align:middle line:84% And they say, if there was anybody who was a closet 01:19:50.970 --> 01:19:52.930 align:middle line:90% researcher, it was Art Hansen. 01:19:52.930 --> 01:19:55.022 align:middle line:84% He'd sit in the corner and crank out papers. 01:19:55.022 --> 01:19:56.730 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's what he liked to do. 01:19:56.730 --> 01:19:58.970 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Didn't interact with people. 01:19:58.970 --> 01:20:03.190 align:middle line:84% And he was also married fairly young and had kids. 01:20:03.190 --> 01:20:07.410 align:middle line:84% And he was going to, I think it was John Carroll University, at 01:20:07.410 --> 01:20:11.370 align:middle line:84% night and got a PhD in applied math from there. 01:20:11.370 --> 01:20:13.290 align:middle line:84% And when he finished there, he thought 01:20:13.290 --> 01:20:15.710 align:middle line:84% he would go off and do something different. 01:20:15.710 --> 01:20:23.150 align:middle line:84% And he went to Cornell aero labs in Buffalo, New York 01:20:23.150 --> 01:20:25.270 align:middle line:84% and, of all things, became manager 01:20:25.270 --> 01:20:29.350 align:middle line:90% of a group in nuclear research. 01:20:29.350 --> 01:20:33.270 align:middle line:84% I don't know why he got into that, but he did get into that. 01:20:33.270 --> 01:20:41.730 align:middle line:84% And there, he met a guy named Art Trabant, who was, I think, 01:20:41.730 --> 01:20:44.210 align:middle line:84% Dean of Engineering at SUNY Buffalo. 01:20:44.210 --> 01:20:47.270 align:middle line:90% They met in. 01:20:47.270 --> 01:20:52.170 align:middle line:84% A service club, like the Rotary or Lions or something like that. 01:20:52.170 --> 01:20:54.070 align:middle line:90% Anyway, they met there. 01:20:54.070 --> 01:21:00.030 align:middle line:84% And Hansen decided-- and this is what he's told me-- 01:21:00.030 --> 01:21:02.790 align:middle line:84% that he really didn't particularly 01:21:02.790 --> 01:21:05.430 align:middle line:90% like managing people. 01:21:05.430 --> 01:21:07.930 align:middle line:84% And so he was kind of in the mood to do something different, 01:21:07.930 --> 01:21:09.110 align:middle line:90% possibly. 01:21:09.110 --> 01:21:12.590 align:middle line:84% And one day, he got on an airplane in New York City 01:21:12.590 --> 01:21:14.550 align:middle line:90% to fly to Detroit. 01:21:14.550 --> 01:21:16.750 align:middle line:84% And he happened to sit down next to Gordon Van 01:21:16.750 --> 01:21:20.820 align:middle line:84% Wylen, who had just become department head at Michigan. 01:21:20.820 --> 01:21:22.500 align:middle line:90% And they got chatting. 01:21:22.500 --> 01:21:24.640 align:middle line:84% And Van Wylen says, what do you do? 01:21:24.640 --> 01:21:26.940 align:middle line:84% And he said he was interested in fluid mechanics 01:21:26.940 --> 01:21:27.920 align:middle line:90% and applied math. 01:21:27.920 --> 01:21:30.860 align:middle line:84% And Van Wylen says, well, I'm the new head 01:21:30.860 --> 01:21:32.480 align:middle line:84% of mechanical engineering at Michigan. 01:21:32.480 --> 01:21:34.040 align:middle line:84% And we really need somebody like you. 01:21:34.040 --> 01:21:36.900 align:middle line:84% Would you be interested in a faculty job? 01:21:36.900 --> 01:21:39.780 align:middle line:84% Hansen, if you ever knew him, just 01:21:39.780 --> 01:21:42.520 align:middle line:84% about anything you pose to him, he'll say, well, yeah, why not? 01:21:42.520 --> 01:21:43.480 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Why not try that? 01:21:43.480 --> 01:21:44.220 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 01:21:44.220 --> 01:21:45.580 align:middle line:90% Talk about-- Isn't that amazing? 01:21:45.580 --> 01:21:47.788 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So he became a faculty member at Michigan 01:21:47.788 --> 01:21:48.880 align:middle line:90% in mechanical engineering. 01:21:48.880 --> 01:21:50.980 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Just as easy as that without even trying. 01:21:50.980 --> 01:21:52.647 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I mean, in those days, 01:21:52.647 --> 01:21:54.460 align:middle line:90% that's the way hiring was done. 01:21:54.460 --> 01:21:56.560 align:middle line:90% And so that's where I met him. 01:21:56.560 --> 01:21:58.200 align:middle line:90% I took a class from him. 01:21:58.200 --> 01:22:02.420 align:middle line:84% And then I worked for him and so on. 01:22:02.420 --> 01:22:05.380 align:middle line:84% Anyway, I was in his house the afternoon 01:22:05.380 --> 01:22:08.960 align:middle line:84% he got the phone call and the offer from Georgia Tech. 01:22:08.960 --> 01:22:12.260 align:middle line:84% And he was after me to come down from that time on. 01:22:12.260 --> 01:22:13.920 align:middle line:90% And we still communicated. 01:22:13.920 --> 01:22:17.710 align:middle line:84% And in those days, Mary wrote all our Christmas letters. 01:22:17.710 --> 01:22:25.250 align:middle line:84% And in Christmas of '68, she wrote and said how discouraged I 01:22:25.250 --> 01:22:27.770 align:middle line:84% was and how chaotic things were at Michigan and de-da-de-da. 01:22:27.770 --> 01:22:28.880 align:middle line:90% So he got the letter. 01:22:28.880 --> 01:22:31.130 align:middle line:84% And he called up and said, well, how about coming down 01:22:31.130 --> 01:22:31.930 align:middle line:90% for an interview? 01:22:31.930 --> 01:22:33.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We don't have those problems at Georgia Tech. 01:22:33.570 --> 01:22:34.320 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Right. 01:22:34.320 --> 01:22:38.850 align:middle line:84% So I came down in early April for an interview. 01:22:38.850 --> 01:22:40.027 align:middle line:90% The dogwood were in bloom. 01:22:40.027 --> 01:22:41.110 align:middle line:90% The azaleas were in bloom. 01:22:41.110 --> 01:22:41.810 align:middle line:84% It was a beautiful day like today. 01:22:41.810 --> 01:22:43.290 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I know what that's all about. 01:22:43.290 --> 01:22:45.010 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And I came from Ann Arbor, where there 01:22:45.010 --> 01:22:46.250 align:middle line:90% was dirty snow on the ground. 01:22:46.250 --> 01:22:47.210 align:middle line:90% And it was muddy. 01:22:47.210 --> 01:22:49.793 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You didn't to think twice about that, did you? 01:22:49.793 --> 01:22:51.870 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So then we came down. 01:22:51.870 --> 01:22:52.370 align:middle line:90% But-- 01:22:52.370 --> 01:22:53.870 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Let me ask you this. 01:22:53.870 --> 01:22:56.198 align:middle line:84% Now, Michigan is a school that's very high-- 01:22:56.198 --> 01:22:57.490 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, it's very good. 01:22:57.490 --> 01:22:58.970 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: National ranking. 01:22:58.970 --> 01:23:01.890 align:middle line:84% And there was a lot of controversy with the kids drug 01:23:01.890 --> 01:23:02.490 align:middle line:90% use. 01:23:02.490 --> 01:23:04.615 align:middle line:84% The whole hippie thing was up there and everything. 01:23:04.615 --> 01:23:06.250 align:middle line:90% And yet what did you find? 01:23:06.250 --> 01:23:07.390 align:middle line:90% Were they good students? 01:23:07.390 --> 01:23:08.473 align:middle line:90% Did you have good student? 01:23:08.473 --> 01:23:09.530 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, sure. 01:23:09.530 --> 01:23:10.310 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Somehow or other, 01:23:10.310 --> 01:23:11.670 align:middle line:90% the chaos that was around them-- 01:23:11.670 --> 01:23:12.690 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Most of the chaos was 01:23:12.690 --> 01:23:14.663 align:middle line:84% in the literature school, the literature, 01:23:14.663 --> 01:23:15.830 align:middle line:90% science, and the arts, not-- 01:23:15.830 --> 01:23:17.330 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Not in engineering. 01:23:17.330 --> 01:23:18.420 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Not in engineering, not 01:23:18.420 --> 01:23:20.070 align:middle line:84% in the other more professionally oriented schools. 01:23:20.070 --> 01:23:21.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You weren't too sure 01:23:21.570 --> 01:23:25.090 align:middle line:84% if you wanted to raise your kids in that environment. 01:23:25.090 --> 01:23:26.750 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, that was part of it. 01:23:26.750 --> 01:23:27.730 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And the crappy weather. 01:23:27.730 --> 01:23:28.450 align:middle line:90% I mean, let's face it. 01:23:28.450 --> 01:23:29.650 align:middle line:84% That's why people leave Michigan. 01:23:29.650 --> 01:23:30.550 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And actually, moving down 01:23:30.550 --> 01:23:32.110 align:middle line:84% here was probably one of the best things that 01:23:32.110 --> 01:23:33.010 align:middle line:90% happened to our kids. 01:23:33.010 --> 01:23:35.218 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That could've happened to them, yeah. 01:23:35.218 --> 01:23:39.710 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And in Ann Arbor, at least at that time, 01:23:39.710 --> 01:23:43.830 align:middle line:84% the pecking order was such that, if you were not faculty 01:23:43.830 --> 01:23:48.092 align:middle line:84% and if your kids didn't aspire to be faculty, you were nobody. 01:23:48.092 --> 01:23:49.050 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Really? 01:23:49.050 --> 01:23:51.630 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, so coming down here 01:23:51.630 --> 01:23:53.930 align:middle line:84% opened up all kinds of career opportunities for them. 01:23:53.930 --> 01:23:55.330 align:middle line:84% And they're doing extremely well. 01:23:55.330 --> 01:23:56.330 align:middle line:90% So, I mean, it was good. 01:23:56.330 --> 01:23:57.788 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It was a good move. 01:23:57.788 --> 01:23:59.650 align:middle line:84% So Hansen didn't have to coax too much. 01:23:59.650 --> 01:24:02.190 align:middle line:84% You came for one interview and said, yeah, I could do this. 01:24:02.190 --> 01:24:03.070 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Mary and I flew down later. 01:24:03.070 --> 01:24:04.050 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did you have to beg Mary? 01:24:04.050 --> 01:24:05.587 align:middle line:84% Or was she more than ready to come? 01:24:05.587 --> 01:24:07.170 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, she came down to look. 01:24:07.170 --> 01:24:09.302 align:middle line:84% And actually, we bought this house 01:24:09.302 --> 01:24:11.510 align:middle line:84% and moved into this house, been down here ever since. 01:24:11.510 --> 01:24:12.590 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: 1968? 01:24:12.590 --> 01:24:13.465 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: '69. '69. 01:24:13.465 --> 01:24:15.400 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: '69, you bought this house. 01:24:15.400 --> 01:24:16.500 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Now, we've done renovations. 01:24:16.500 --> 01:24:17.500 align:middle line:90% That used to be a porch. 01:24:17.500 --> 01:24:19.200 align:middle line:84% And we've done a lot of other renovations. 01:24:19.200 --> 01:24:20.140 align:middle line:84% But we're still in the same place. 01:24:20.140 --> 01:24:21.560 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's a wonderful area. 01:24:21.560 --> 01:24:22.020 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: It's very nice. 01:24:22.020 --> 01:24:23.895 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You didn't have so far to go. 01:24:23.895 --> 01:24:26.300 align:middle line:84% It all worked out fairly well in that respect. 01:24:26.300 --> 01:24:29.160 align:middle line:84% What was it like to come to Georgia Tech in 1968? 01:24:29.160 --> 01:24:30.980 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I jokingly tell people 01:24:30.980 --> 01:24:33.700 align:middle line:84% that, until I came down here for an interview, 01:24:33.700 --> 01:24:37.380 align:middle line:84% I had never been further south than Washington, DC. 01:24:37.380 --> 01:24:39.720 align:middle line:84% And I thought Indianapolis was the deep South. 01:24:39.720 --> 01:24:40.780 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:24:40.780 --> 01:24:43.560 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Boy, did you find a different culture here. 01:24:43.560 --> 01:24:46.160 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, when I grew up, 01:24:46.160 --> 01:24:50.000 align:middle line:84% our next door neighbors had moved there from Indianapolis. 01:24:50.000 --> 01:24:52.372 align:middle line:84% And they had a Southern accent, really strong, 01:24:52.372 --> 01:24:54.080 align:middle line:84% more than you hear around here, actually. 01:24:54.080 --> 01:24:54.440 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Really? 01:24:54.440 --> 01:24:55.982 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So I thought Indianapolis 01:24:55.982 --> 01:24:57.460 align:middle line:90% was kind of the deep South. 01:24:57.460 --> 01:24:59.377 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But you found out very quickly 01:24:59.377 --> 01:25:00.712 align:middle line:90% that there was a big difference. 01:25:00.712 --> 01:25:03.420 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, for one thing, we moved into this neighborhood. 01:25:03.420 --> 01:25:09.780 align:middle line:84% And I think only the people next door on that side 01:25:09.780 --> 01:25:11.310 align:middle line:90% were native Georgians. 01:25:11.310 --> 01:25:12.810 align:middle line:84% Everybody else in the neighborhood-- 01:25:12.810 --> 01:25:13.370 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Was from somewhere else. 01:25:13.370 --> 01:25:14.250 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Somewhere else, yeah. 01:25:14.250 --> 01:25:16.390 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And yet there was a sense of hospitality. 01:25:16.390 --> 01:25:17.098 align:middle line:90% You felt welcome. 01:25:17.098 --> 01:25:18.557 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, no, it was great. 01:25:18.557 --> 01:25:19.270 align:middle line:90% We've enjoyed it. 01:25:19.270 --> 01:25:22.117 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And what about going to the campus? 01:25:22.117 --> 01:25:23.950 align:middle line:84% You were assigned to mechanical engineering. 01:25:23.950 --> 01:25:25.310 align:middle line:90% Where were you at that time? 01:25:25.310 --> 01:25:25.950 align:middle line:90% What building? 01:25:25.950 --> 01:25:28.830 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I had an office in the Space Sciences building, 01:25:28.830 --> 01:25:31.570 align:middle line:84% which is now, I think, called the Weber building, where-- 01:25:31.570 --> 01:25:33.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, I know exactly. 01:25:33.210 --> 01:25:34.918 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So we had an office and a lab 01:25:34.918 --> 01:25:38.770 align:middle line:84% in there for, well, until I became chair of the department 01:25:38.770 --> 01:25:43.010 align:middle line:84% in '88, when I moved up to the Coon building, 01:25:43.010 --> 01:25:45.708 align:middle line:90% and then later over to MRDC. 01:25:45.708 --> 01:25:47.750 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Now, when you came to the campus, 01:25:47.750 --> 01:25:49.790 align:middle line:84% Georgia Tech was quite progressive by this time. 01:25:49.790 --> 01:25:50.670 align:middle line:90% We had integrated. 01:25:50.670 --> 01:25:51.330 align:middle line:90% We had women. 01:25:51.330 --> 01:25:52.448 align:middle line:90% And we had integrated. 01:25:52.448 --> 01:25:54.490 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But you still had Hemphill going down 01:25:54.490 --> 01:25:55.470 align:middle line:84% through the middle of the campus. 01:25:55.470 --> 01:25:56.428 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: We did. 01:25:56.428 --> 01:25:58.290 align:middle line:90% But that was far, far-- 01:25:58.290 --> 01:26:02.250 align:middle line:84% I mean, Michigan was way ahead on all of those aspects. 01:26:02.250 --> 01:26:05.185 align:middle line:84% And you found a fairly conservative base of people. 01:26:05.185 --> 01:26:06.310 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, absolutely. 01:26:06.310 --> 01:26:07.130 align:middle line:90% Yeah, absolutely. 01:26:07.130 --> 01:26:09.070 align:middle line:84% One of the biggest things you notice 01:26:09.070 --> 01:26:12.370 align:middle line:84% was there were almost no women on campus, where at that time, 01:26:12.370 --> 01:26:15.510 align:middle line:84% at Michigan, probably 40% of the students were women. 01:26:15.510 --> 01:26:18.490 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And in '68, we still hadn't hit even 100 yet. 01:26:18.490 --> 01:26:19.950 align:middle line:84% We were under 100 in the student body population. 01:26:19.950 --> 01:26:21.330 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: They were still rare. 01:26:21.330 --> 01:26:24.410 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, of maybe, what, 3,000 or 4,000, 01:26:24.410 --> 01:26:25.648 align:middle line:90% something like that. 01:26:25.648 --> 01:26:26.690 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: I'm not sure. 01:26:26.690 --> 01:26:27.390 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I think somewhere 01:26:27.390 --> 01:26:28.170 align:middle line:90% around there, maybe [INAUDIBLE]. 01:26:28.170 --> 01:26:30.310 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Maybe a little higher, a little higher. 01:26:30.310 --> 01:26:32.323 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And Hansen was here as a dean? 01:26:32.323 --> 01:26:32.990 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yes. 01:26:32.990 --> 01:26:34.490 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Dean of engineering? 01:26:34.490 --> 01:26:37.470 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, when I came down to interview, 01:26:37.470 --> 01:26:39.390 align:middle line:90% Harrison was president. 01:26:39.390 --> 01:26:43.110 align:middle line:90% Hansen was dean. 01:26:43.110 --> 01:26:46.975 align:middle line:84% I don't know who was vice president of academic affairs. 01:26:46.975 --> 01:26:49.350 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Harrison was right at the end of his time 01:26:49.350 --> 01:26:49.770 align:middle line:90% here then. 01:26:49.770 --> 01:26:51.130 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, that's what I was going to say. 01:26:51.130 --> 01:26:53.463 align:middle line:84% Between the time I interviewed and the time I showed up, 01:26:53.463 --> 01:26:55.813 align:middle line:84% July 1, Harrison retired or resigned. 01:26:55.813 --> 01:26:57.230 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He resigned, yeah. 01:26:57.230 --> 01:26:58.770 align:middle line:84% So you never really got to know him at all? 01:26:58.770 --> 01:26:59.570 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: I never met him, no. 01:26:59.570 --> 01:27:00.330 align:middle line:90% I never saw him. 01:27:00.330 --> 01:27:01.410 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, you never even saw him. 01:27:01.410 --> 01:27:02.785 align:middle line:84% He was gone already by that time. 01:27:02.785 --> 01:27:04.980 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I heard the name, yeah. 01:27:04.980 --> 01:27:06.730 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And he was a Midwesterner. 01:27:06.730 --> 01:27:07.280 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Is that right? 01:27:07.280 --> 01:27:08.360 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, he was from Purdue. 01:27:08.360 --> 01:27:08.780 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: OK. 01:27:08.780 --> 01:27:09.460 align:middle line:90% Oh, OK. 01:27:09.460 --> 01:27:11.918 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, that's where they had hired him from. 01:27:11.918 --> 01:27:17.020 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: OK, well, to get back to Hansen 01:27:17.020 --> 01:27:20.940 align:middle line:84% and how he got here, this is why I 01:27:20.940 --> 01:27:24.420 align:middle line:84% think it'd be great if you would be able to do a living 01:27:24.420 --> 01:27:25.640 align:middle line:90% history with him. 01:27:25.640 --> 01:27:27.420 align:middle line:84% If you do, I hope that what I'm telling 01:27:27.420 --> 01:27:31.140 align:middle line:84% you is consistent with what he's going to tell you. 01:27:31.140 --> 01:27:38.760 align:middle line:84% He in about '63 or '64, Van Wylen, 01:27:38.760 --> 01:27:40.960 align:middle line:84% who was head of mechanical engineering at Michigan, 01:27:40.960 --> 01:27:43.620 align:middle line:90% became dean. 01:27:43.620 --> 01:27:49.860 align:middle line:84% And through a quirk of fate, Hansen became department head. 01:27:49.860 --> 01:27:52.460 align:middle line:84% The guy who would logically become the department head 01:27:52.460 --> 01:27:54.980 align:middle line:84% was away on sabbatical in Berlin. 01:27:54.980 --> 01:27:58.020 align:middle line:84% And he was a kind of a controversial guy. 01:27:58.020 --> 01:27:58.550 align:middle line:90% And so-- 01:27:58.550 --> 01:27:59.800 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Hansen got it. 01:27:59.800 --> 01:28:03.020 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: They appointed Hansen to be department head. 01:28:03.020 --> 01:28:06.250 align:middle line:84% And it was within a year or so after he 01:28:06.250 --> 01:28:07.890 align:middle line:84% became department head there that he 01:28:07.890 --> 01:28:10.790 align:middle line:90% got a call from Art Trabant. 01:28:10.790 --> 01:28:12.750 align:middle line:84% That's why I mentioned Art Trabant earlier. 01:28:12.750 --> 01:28:15.690 align:middle line:84% At the time, at that time, Art Trabant 01:28:15.690 --> 01:28:19.965 align:middle line:84% was vice president of academic affairs at Georgia Tech. 01:28:19.965 --> 01:28:21.090 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, really? 01:28:21.090 --> 01:28:24.190 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I don't know how he got here, 01:28:24.190 --> 01:28:26.170 align:middle line:90% but he was, anyway. 01:28:26.170 --> 01:28:29.310 align:middle line:84% And you probably heard from other people, 01:28:29.310 --> 01:28:33.850 align:middle line:84% although maybe not, that, in the early '60s, early-to-mid 01:28:33.850 --> 01:28:37.770 align:middle line:84% '60s, there was a really big controversy between the dean 01:28:37.770 --> 01:28:42.290 align:middle line:84% of engineering and the number of the department heads. 01:28:42.290 --> 01:28:45.730 align:middle line:84% And a number of the department heads-- 01:28:45.730 --> 01:28:47.410 align:middle line:84% I don't any details, except I know 01:28:47.410 --> 01:28:51.330 align:middle line:90% several department heads left. 01:28:51.330 --> 01:28:55.417 align:middle line:84% And the dean either quit or was fired or whatever. 01:28:55.417 --> 01:28:56.250 align:middle line:90% I don't really know. 01:28:56.250 --> 01:28:59.890 align:middle line:84% But, anyway, there were more than one department 01:28:59.890 --> 01:29:00.950 align:middle line:90% head job open. 01:29:00.950 --> 01:29:02.710 align:middle line:90% And the dean's job was open. 01:29:02.710 --> 01:29:07.083 align:middle line:84% OK, so Art Trabant, looking for people to fill these slots-- 01:29:07.083 --> 01:29:08.750 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Calls his friend Hansen. 01:29:08.750 --> 01:29:10.125 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --calls up Art Hansen 01:29:10.125 --> 01:29:12.570 align:middle line:84% in Michigan, who is now department head there. 01:29:12.570 --> 01:29:16.630 align:middle line:84% And he says to him, Art, we need a director 01:29:16.630 --> 01:29:18.990 align:middle line:84% of mechanical engineering at Georgia Tech. 01:29:18.990 --> 01:29:20.130 align:middle line:90% Would you be interested? 01:29:20.130 --> 01:29:22.090 align:middle line:84% And of course, Art says, oh, yeah, why not? 01:29:22.090 --> 01:29:23.550 align:middle line:90% I'll look at it. 01:29:23.550 --> 01:29:25.330 align:middle line:90% So he came down to interview. 01:29:25.330 --> 01:29:30.030 align:middle line:84% And since Trabant was his friend from Buffalo, 01:29:30.030 --> 01:29:32.610 align:middle line:84% Trabant escorts him around for two days, 01:29:32.610 --> 01:29:35.470 align:middle line:84% introducing him to other deans and to other department 01:29:35.470 --> 01:29:38.690 align:middle line:84% heads and whatnot, and to some of the faculty. 01:29:38.690 --> 01:29:41.810 align:middle line:84% And they start heading back to the airport. 01:29:41.810 --> 01:29:46.190 align:middle line:84% And Trabant says to Hansen, well, are you interested? 01:29:46.190 --> 01:29:48.490 align:middle line:84% And Hansen says, well, yeah, I am kind of interested. 01:29:48.490 --> 01:29:50.442 align:middle line:90% But I spent two days here. 01:29:50.442 --> 01:29:52.150 align:middle line:84% You introduced me to all kinds of people. 01:29:52.150 --> 01:29:54.630 align:middle line:84% You never introduced me to the dean of engineering. 01:29:54.630 --> 01:29:56.850 align:middle line:90% I mean, what happened? 01:29:56.850 --> 01:29:57.450 align:middle line:90% How come? 01:29:57.450 --> 01:29:59.555 align:middle line:84% And Trabant says, well, as a matter of fact, 01:29:59.555 --> 01:30:00.930 align:middle line:84% we don't have a dean of engineer. 01:30:00.930 --> 01:30:02.780 align:middle line:84% We're looking for that position, too. 01:30:02.780 --> 01:30:03.920 align:middle line:90% Would you be interested? 01:30:03.920 --> 01:30:05.200 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: [LAUGHS] Just like that. 01:30:05.200 --> 01:30:06.640 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And Hansen says, well, yeah. 01:30:06.640 --> 01:30:07.080 align:middle line:90% Why not? 01:30:07.080 --> 01:30:08.080 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Why not? 01:30:08.080 --> 01:30:09.740 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: So he became dean. 01:30:09.740 --> 01:30:11.060 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's exactly how that happened. 01:30:11.060 --> 01:30:13.713 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, so then he's looking for a department head. 01:30:13.713 --> 01:30:15.380 align:middle line:84% And he tried to talk me into coming down 01:30:15.380 --> 01:30:16.240 align:middle line:90% and take the department. 01:30:16.240 --> 01:30:16.800 align:middle line:90% I said, no way. 01:30:16.800 --> 01:30:17.400 align:middle line:90% I'm too young. 01:30:17.400 --> 01:30:19.140 align:middle line:90% I'm not going to do that. 01:30:19.140 --> 01:30:20.840 align:middle line:90% And that was in '65. 01:30:20.840 --> 01:30:24.860 align:middle line:84% I was in his house the day he got the call from here. 01:30:24.860 --> 01:30:30.060 align:middle line:84% And so then he talked me into coming down in '69. 01:30:30.060 --> 01:30:31.560 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, like you said, 01:30:31.560 --> 01:30:34.453 align:middle line:84% circumstances up there were controversial, to put it mildly. 01:30:34.453 --> 01:30:36.120 align:middle line:84% So it wasn't hard to talk you out of it. 01:30:36.120 --> 01:30:36.340 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No. 01:30:36.340 --> 01:30:38.673 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And anybody who leaves Michigan in April 01:30:38.673 --> 01:30:40.715 align:middle line:84% to come here, it's got to be sold. 01:30:40.715 --> 01:30:42.340 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, a lot of people 01:30:42.340 --> 01:30:44.400 align:middle line:84% there thought I was crazy coming to Georgia Tech. 01:30:44.400 --> 01:30:46.100 align:middle line:84% And at that time, Georgia Tech didn't 01:30:46.100 --> 01:30:49.720 align:middle line:84% have a whole lot of stature nationally, other than athletics 01:30:49.720 --> 01:30:50.860 align:middle line:90% maybe. 01:30:50.860 --> 01:30:53.100 align:middle line:90% But nevertheless, I did-- 01:30:53.100 --> 01:30:55.880 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well known in the South but not all over. 01:30:55.880 --> 01:30:57.463 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: They used to joke about it 01:30:57.463 --> 01:31:00.390 align:middle line:84% being the best engineering school on North Avenue. 01:31:00.390 --> 01:31:01.835 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 01:31:01.835 --> 01:31:04.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's interesting because, different parts 01:31:04.210 --> 01:31:07.230 align:middle line:84% of the country, it had a very high reputation for engineering. 01:31:07.230 --> 01:31:09.250 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, mainly for undergraduate. 01:31:09.250 --> 01:31:10.330 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It was all undergraduate. 01:31:10.330 --> 01:31:11.190 align:middle line:90% That was the big product. 01:31:11.190 --> 01:31:12.410 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Not research, yeah. 01:31:12.410 --> 01:31:13.550 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That was the big product. 01:31:13.550 --> 01:31:16.310 align:middle line:84% I don't think research ever came about until Pettit came about. 01:31:16.310 --> 01:31:18.330 align:middle line:84% I mean, there wasn't really a lot of interest. 01:31:18.330 --> 01:31:19.490 align:middle line:90% So you get down here. 01:31:19.490 --> 01:31:21.350 align:middle line:84% And almost before your very eyes, 01:31:21.350 --> 01:31:24.550 align:middle line:90% Hansen is not a dean anymore. 01:31:24.550 --> 01:31:26.270 align:middle line:90% He's immediately the president. 01:31:26.270 --> 01:31:29.370 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, and I don't know whether you're aware of it 01:31:29.370 --> 01:31:29.870 align:middle line:90% or not. 01:31:29.870 --> 01:31:32.253 align:middle line:90% But that was a fluke as well. 01:31:32.253 --> 01:31:33.170 align:middle line:90% Are you aware of that? 01:31:33.170 --> 01:31:36.130 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, it seems like his whole life was. 01:31:36.130 --> 01:31:40.850 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I remember seeing the newspaper headline 01:31:40.850 --> 01:31:44.610 align:middle line:84% that said Ray Bisplinghoff was appointed 01:31:44.610 --> 01:31:46.030 align:middle line:90% president of Georgia Tech. 01:31:46.030 --> 01:31:46.610 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, you saw that? 01:31:46.610 --> 01:31:47.050 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yes. 01:31:47.050 --> 01:31:48.470 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I didn't know that ever got published. 01:31:48.470 --> 01:31:50.810 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It was on the front of the second section 01:31:50.810 --> 01:31:53.977 align:middle line:84% of either Journal or Constitution, whatever it was. 01:31:53.977 --> 01:31:55.810 align:middle line:84% And a picture of Bisplinghoff and a headline 01:31:55.810 --> 01:31:59.160 align:middle line:84% says, Bisplinghoff accepts president of Georgia Tech. 01:31:59.160 --> 01:32:03.092 align:middle line:90% And that was what? 01:32:03.092 --> 01:32:04.800 align:middle line:84% In the early-- it was within a few months 01:32:04.800 --> 01:32:06.100 align:middle line:90% after I got down here. 01:32:06.100 --> 01:32:08.040 align:middle line:90% They were doing the search. 01:32:08.040 --> 01:32:10.640 align:middle line:84% And again, the story that Hansen told 01:32:10.640 --> 01:32:17.240 align:middle line:84% me was that he was a candidate for president because just 01:32:17.240 --> 01:32:18.800 align:middle line:90% deans normally are. 01:32:18.800 --> 01:32:22.160 align:middle line:84% Dean of engineering is the logical one of the candidates. 01:32:22.160 --> 01:32:26.660 align:middle line:84% And as a result of it, as the course of the search went on, 01:32:26.660 --> 01:32:29.022 align:middle line:84% he realized he probably wouldn't get it. 01:32:29.022 --> 01:32:30.480 align:middle line:84% But he thought, yeah, maybe he'd be 01:32:30.480 --> 01:32:31.900 align:middle line:90% interested in being a president. 01:32:31.900 --> 01:32:34.360 align:middle line:84% So there's always places looking for presidents. 01:32:34.360 --> 01:32:37.680 align:middle line:84% And he threw his hat in the ring at Brooklyn Poly. 01:32:37.680 --> 01:32:42.260 align:middle line:84% And so he became a finalist at Brooklyn Poly for president. 01:32:42.260 --> 01:32:47.720 align:middle line:84% And he was scheduled to go up there for an interview, I think, 01:32:47.720 --> 01:32:52.800 align:middle line:84% the day this headline showed up or the next day, one of the two, 01:32:52.800 --> 01:32:54.160 align:middle line:90% at that time. 01:32:54.160 --> 01:32:56.540 align:middle line:84% And as he was leaving the office late in the morning 01:32:56.540 --> 01:32:58.780 align:middle line:84% to go to the airport, the phone rings. 01:32:58.780 --> 01:33:00.280 align:middle line:90% And his secretary gets it. 01:33:00.280 --> 01:33:02.900 align:middle line:84% And she says, Dr. Hansen, Dr. Hansen, the chancellor 01:33:02.900 --> 01:33:04.740 align:middle line:90% wants to talk to you. 01:33:04.740 --> 01:33:07.980 align:middle line:84% It was Chancellor Simpson at the time. 01:33:07.980 --> 01:33:10.340 align:middle line:90% So Hansen takes the phone. 01:33:10.340 --> 01:33:12.980 align:middle line:84% And again, according to him, Simpson says, Art, we 01:33:12.980 --> 01:33:13.960 align:middle line:90% got a problem. 01:33:13.960 --> 01:33:17.180 align:middle line:84% Bisplinghoff called, and he's backed out. 01:33:17.180 --> 01:33:19.760 align:middle line:84% And we've told all the other candidates we don't need them. 01:33:19.760 --> 01:33:20.802 align:middle line:90% We can't go back to them. 01:33:20.802 --> 01:33:21.880 align:middle line:90% Are you still interested? 01:33:21.880 --> 01:33:23.860 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:33:23.860 --> 01:33:25.500 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That is just so funny. 01:33:25.500 --> 01:33:26.520 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, it's hilarious. 01:33:26.520 --> 01:33:27.920 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Nobody could make this up. 01:33:27.920 --> 01:33:30.480 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So Hansen says, well, let me think about it. 01:33:30.480 --> 01:33:33.803 align:middle line:84% He said, I'm on my way to interview for Brooklyn Poly. 01:33:33.803 --> 01:33:34.720 align:middle line:90% Let me think about it. 01:33:34.720 --> 01:33:36.020 align:middle line:90% And I'll get back to you. 01:33:36.020 --> 01:33:37.020 align:middle line:90% So he's heading to the-- 01:33:37.020 --> 01:33:38.560 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So we had a breathless day there. 01:33:38.560 --> 01:33:40.140 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, he's heading to the airport. 01:33:40.140 --> 01:33:41.760 align:middle line:84% And he says he's thinking about it. 01:33:41.760 --> 01:33:43.490 align:middle line:84% And he says to himself, what the hell? 01:33:43.490 --> 01:33:45.240 align:middle line:84% If I want to be president of a university, 01:33:45.240 --> 01:33:46.400 align:middle line:90% I might as well take this one. 01:33:46.400 --> 01:33:47.280 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I don't have to move. 01:33:47.280 --> 01:33:48.780 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So he gets off the expressway, 01:33:48.780 --> 01:33:51.405 align:middle line:84% and goes back to the office, and calls the chancellor and says, 01:33:51.405 --> 01:33:52.840 align:middle line:90% OK, I'll take the job. 01:33:52.840 --> 01:33:56.240 align:middle line:84% And he calls Brooklyn Poly and says, I'm withdrawing. 01:33:56.240 --> 01:33:57.490 align:middle line:90% And that's the way he became-- 01:33:57.490 --> 01:33:58.230 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I've just been hired. 01:33:58.230 --> 01:33:59.590 align:middle line:84% And that's the way he came president. 01:33:59.590 --> 01:34:01.132 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And I've talked to people 01:34:01.132 --> 01:34:06.050 align:middle line:84% who tell me that Ray Bisplinghoff did the same thing 01:34:06.050 --> 01:34:08.642 align:middle line:90% at two or three other places. 01:34:08.642 --> 01:34:10.350 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He was willing to step up 01:34:10.350 --> 01:34:11.517 align:middle line:90% but not all the way in, huh? 01:34:11.517 --> 01:34:13.250 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I think, at the time, 01:34:13.250 --> 01:34:15.630 align:middle line:84% he was dean of engineering at MIT. 01:34:15.630 --> 01:34:16.730 align:middle line:90% I think. 01:34:16.730 --> 01:34:18.470 align:middle line:90% He certainly was at MIT. 01:34:18.470 --> 01:34:22.370 align:middle line:84% And he had been, I think, head of NACA, which was 01:34:22.370 --> 01:34:24.490 align:middle line:90% NASA, the forerunner of NASA. 01:34:24.490 --> 01:34:27.530 align:middle line:84% And I found out recently-- and this might be another person you 01:34:27.530 --> 01:34:32.690 align:middle line:84% will want to do one of these interviews with, 01:34:32.690 --> 01:34:35.225 align:middle line:90% Bob Loewy in aerospace-- 01:34:35.225 --> 01:34:36.850 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, he's on the list. 01:34:36.850 --> 01:34:39.990 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --was Ray Bisplinghoff's PhD student. 01:34:39.990 --> 01:34:41.110 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, so he might have a little insight into that. 01:34:41.110 --> 01:34:42.210 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And so I was chatting with him about it. 01:34:42.210 --> 01:34:42.830 align:middle line:90% And I mentioned it. 01:34:42.830 --> 01:34:43.747 align:middle line:90% And he said, oh, yeah. 01:34:43.747 --> 01:34:45.090 align:middle line:90% He said, Ray did it at-- 01:34:45.090 --> 01:34:47.370 align:middle line:84% I think he said Carnegie Mellon or, no, 01:34:47.370 --> 01:34:50.635 align:middle line:84% Case Western and some place in the Midwest, 01:34:50.635 --> 01:34:51.760 align:middle line:90% did the same kind of thing. 01:34:51.760 --> 01:34:52.200 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So that's funny that he 01:34:52.200 --> 01:34:54.540 align:middle line:84% would go through all that fuss and then step back? 01:34:54.540 --> 01:34:55.840 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I don't know what [INAUDIBLE]. 01:34:55.840 --> 01:34:56.960 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I don't even remember ever 01:34:56.960 --> 01:34:58.300 align:middle line:84% seeing that headline, I didn't know that had-- 01:34:58.300 --> 01:34:59.340 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I'm going to have to look it up. 01:34:59.340 --> 01:35:00.720 align:middle line:90% I swear to God I saw it. 01:35:00.720 --> 01:35:01.980 align:middle line:90% I swear I saw it. 01:35:01.980 --> 01:35:02.600 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 01:35:02.600 --> 01:35:04.225 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That is just hilarious. 01:35:04.225 --> 01:35:07.540 align:middle line:84% So here's Hansen, just going to pick it up, 01:35:07.540 --> 01:35:08.540 align:middle line:90% might as well, I'm here. 01:35:08.540 --> 01:35:09.560 align:middle line:90% I'll just go ahead and do it. 01:35:09.560 --> 01:35:11.643 align:middle line:84% Now, he didn't stay in the position for very long. 01:35:11.643 --> 01:35:12.983 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No, he didn't. 01:35:12.983 --> 01:35:15.400 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And that's a whole story unto itself, too. 01:35:15.400 --> 01:35:18.260 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, getting this job, 01:35:18.260 --> 01:35:20.280 align:middle line:90% he's obviously a hero at Purdue. 01:35:20.280 --> 01:35:22.200 align:middle line:84% One of Purdue's graduates becomes 01:35:22.200 --> 01:35:24.680 align:middle line:90% president of Georgia Tech. 01:35:24.680 --> 01:35:26.820 align:middle line:84% So shortly after he became president, 01:35:26.820 --> 01:35:29.520 align:middle line:84% Purdue contacted him and said, how about being our commencement 01:35:29.520 --> 01:35:33.400 align:middle line:84% speaker next spring, whatever it was? 01:35:33.400 --> 01:35:35.160 align:middle line:84% And so he said, yeah, he'd do that. 01:35:35.160 --> 01:35:37.343 align:middle line:90% 01:35:37.343 --> 01:35:38.760 align:middle line:84% According to him, between the time 01:35:38.760 --> 01:35:41.360 align:middle line:84% he accepted that and commencement there, 01:35:41.360 --> 01:35:43.800 align:middle line:90% their president-- 01:35:43.800 --> 01:35:47.020 align:middle line:84% guy's name was Hovey or Hawkins or something with an H, 01:35:47.020 --> 01:35:49.580 align:middle line:84% anyway-- who had been president of Purdue for a long time, 01:35:49.580 --> 01:35:53.780 align:middle line:84% I think, 20 years or so, announced his retirement. 01:35:53.780 --> 01:35:56.400 align:middle line:84% So when Hansen gets up there to be the commencement speaker, 01:35:56.400 --> 01:35:57.800 align:middle line:90% he said he went in. 01:35:57.800 --> 01:35:59.040 align:middle line:90% They had a reception for him. 01:35:59.040 --> 01:36:04.080 align:middle line:84% And here's a lineup of big-shot alums of Purdue saying, 01:36:04.080 --> 01:36:06.100 align:middle line:84% we want you to be our next president. 01:36:06.100 --> 01:36:08.218 align:middle line:90% And so he went there. 01:36:08.218 --> 01:36:09.760 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I mean, it's bizarre. 01:36:09.760 --> 01:36:10.100 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: It is. 01:36:10.100 --> 01:36:10.680 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's just bizarre. 01:36:10.680 --> 01:36:12.280 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Well, it goes on. 01:36:12.280 --> 01:36:14.740 align:middle line:90% There's more to it. 01:36:14.740 --> 01:36:16.500 align:middle line:90% He goes up there. 01:36:16.500 --> 01:36:18.780 align:middle line:84% And shortly after he's up there, the editor 01:36:18.780 --> 01:36:23.580 align:middle line:84% of the Purdue student newspaper asked for an interview with him. 01:36:23.580 --> 01:36:31.100 align:middle line:84% And so in the interview, the editor asked him, 01:36:31.100 --> 01:36:33.100 align:middle line:84% how long do you think you'll stay in this job? 01:36:33.100 --> 01:36:34.840 align:middle line:90% The last guy was here 20 years. 01:36:34.840 --> 01:36:37.460 align:middle line:84% But you didn't stay very long in your last job. 01:36:37.460 --> 01:36:40.680 align:middle line:84% And Hansen-- and I know I'd heard him say this before. 01:36:40.680 --> 01:36:43.460 align:middle line:90% So it just makes total sense-- 01:36:43.460 --> 01:36:46.340 align:middle line:84% said, well, I don't intend to stay 01:36:46.340 --> 01:36:49.240 align:middle line:84% in a job for more than eight or nine years. 01:36:49.240 --> 01:36:49.990 align:middle line:90% I mean, that's it. 01:36:49.990 --> 01:36:51.810 align:middle line:84% I should move on to another job, shouldn't 01:36:51.810 --> 01:36:53.770 align:middle line:90% stay in this kind of a job. 01:36:53.770 --> 01:36:56.330 align:middle line:84% Well, it was either eight or nine, or eight or 10, 01:36:56.330 --> 01:36:57.310 align:middle line:90% or something like that. 01:36:57.310 --> 01:37:00.830 align:middle line:84% But, anyway, eight or nine or 10 years, 01:37:00.830 --> 01:37:05.210 align:middle line:84% whatever it was, to the date of that interview, the then student 01:37:05.210 --> 01:37:07.675 align:middle line:84% newspaper editor asked for an interview, 01:37:07.675 --> 01:37:09.050 align:middle line:84% brings the old newspaper with him 01:37:09.050 --> 01:37:10.592 align:middle line:84% and says, well, when are you leaving? 01:37:10.592 --> 01:37:12.970 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:37:12.970 --> 01:37:14.610 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, my word. 01:37:14.610 --> 01:37:15.970 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: So then he-- 01:37:15.970 --> 01:37:18.935 align:middle line:84% well, I don't know how he made the connection with Texas A&M. 01:37:18.935 --> 01:37:19.810 align:middle line:90% But, anyway, that's-- 01:37:19.810 --> 01:37:20.660 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Pause for thought. 01:37:20.660 --> 01:37:22.368 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Threw his through his hat out 01:37:22.368 --> 01:37:24.058 align:middle line:90% and ended up at Texas A&M. 01:37:24.058 --> 01:37:25.850 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, I mean, I don't know. 01:37:25.850 --> 01:37:28.270 align:middle line:84% Did he stay long enough to be inaugurated at Tech? 01:37:28.270 --> 01:37:30.218 align:middle line:90% Did you go to his inauguration? 01:37:30.218 --> 01:37:31.510 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: I did not go to it. 01:37:31.510 --> 01:37:32.410 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: But he had one? 01:37:32.410 --> 01:37:33.870 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I think so I think so. 01:37:33.870 --> 01:37:34.703 align:middle line:90% I don't really know. 01:37:34.703 --> 01:37:36.710 align:middle line:84% I mean, I was not paying that much attention 01:37:36.710 --> 01:37:37.710 align:middle line:90% to things in those days. 01:37:37.710 --> 01:37:40.730 align:middle line:84% I mean, I knew he became president, and that was it. 01:37:40.730 --> 01:37:43.350 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: His time was so short. 01:37:43.350 --> 01:37:44.772 align:middle line:84% His legacy was not large because-- 01:37:44.772 --> 01:37:45.980 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No, that's right. 01:37:45.980 --> 01:37:47.960 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He didn't have time to make an impact or change 01:37:47.960 --> 01:37:49.200 align:middle line:90% anything at all. 01:37:49.200 --> 01:37:51.400 align:middle line:84% I heard he was a very pleasant man. 01:37:51.400 --> 01:37:52.080 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, he was real nice guy. 01:37:52.080 --> 01:37:52.246 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Different people've 01:37:52.246 --> 01:37:54.240 align:middle line:84% commented about what a nice man he was. 01:37:54.240 --> 01:37:56.240 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Mary says that, when you 01:37:56.240 --> 01:37:58.960 align:middle line:84% have a conversation with Art, even if you're 01:37:58.960 --> 01:38:00.600 align:middle line:84% in a crowded room, you think you're 01:38:00.600 --> 01:38:03.587 align:middle line:84% the only person around because he just bears right in. 01:38:03.587 --> 01:38:05.420 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So he has a lot of charisma. 01:38:05.420 --> 01:38:07.340 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, he's very, very personable, 01:38:07.340 --> 01:38:09.125 align:middle line:84% a really nice guy, great sense of humor. 01:38:09.125 --> 01:38:11.000 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, it through Georgia Tech 01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:14.060 align:middle line:84% for a loop to have to look for a president again so quickly. 01:38:14.060 --> 01:38:15.320 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, yeah. 01:38:15.320 --> 01:38:17.980 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And they threw the net out a little farther. 01:38:17.980 --> 01:38:19.680 align:middle line:90% And that brought Pettit in. 01:38:19.680 --> 01:38:21.692 align:middle line:84% And Pettit changed the culture of Georgia Tech. 01:38:21.692 --> 01:38:22.900 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, very much so. 01:38:22.900 --> 01:38:24.108 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Very much so. 01:38:24.108 --> 01:38:27.540 align:middle line:84% So you worked under Hansen for a short period of time 01:38:27.540 --> 01:38:29.240 align:middle line:90% and then along comes Pettit. 01:38:29.240 --> 01:38:31.980 align:middle line:84% Did you have a good relationship with Dr. Pettit. 01:38:31.980 --> 01:38:33.160 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, very good. 01:38:33.160 --> 01:38:35.400 align:middle line:90% But it's interesting. 01:38:35.400 --> 01:38:41.280 align:middle line:84% I think it's fair to say the reason Pettit came 01:38:41.280 --> 01:38:44.680 align:middle line:84% here is probably the same, basically the same, 01:38:44.680 --> 01:38:46.780 align:middle line:84% one of the driving forces was the same reason 01:38:46.780 --> 01:38:49.300 align:middle line:84% I came here, because he was fed up 01:38:49.300 --> 01:38:52.780 align:middle line:84% with the student unrest and controversy at Stanford. 01:38:52.780 --> 01:38:57.100 align:middle line:84% And otherwise, why would anybody leave Stanford, 01:38:57.100 --> 01:38:59.560 align:middle line:84% even to become president of Georgia Tech, quite frankly? 01:38:59.560 --> 01:39:00.720 align:middle line:90% He was dean of engineering. 01:39:00.720 --> 01:39:03.740 align:middle line:84% He very likely may have become president of Stanford 01:39:03.740 --> 01:39:07.620 align:middle line:84% if he'd stayed there because his predecessor became president 01:39:07.620 --> 01:39:08.240 align:middle line:90% at Stanford. 01:39:08.240 --> 01:39:09.460 align:middle line:84% And the current president of Stanford 01:39:09.460 --> 01:39:10.920 align:middle line:84% was the former dean of engineering. 01:39:10.920 --> 01:39:12.500 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But, as you say, he 01:39:12.500 --> 01:39:15.120 align:middle line:84% found all that extracurricular stuff very distracting. 01:39:15.120 --> 01:39:16.808 align:middle line:84% And he was a pretty focused person. 01:39:16.808 --> 01:39:18.100 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Very focused, yeah. 01:39:18.100 --> 01:39:18.900 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And don't you think 01:39:18.900 --> 01:39:21.380 align:middle line:84% that he probably recognized this as a chance 01:39:21.380 --> 01:39:23.110 align:middle line:90% to make a real change? 01:39:23.110 --> 01:39:24.860 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, yeah, that I don't know. 01:39:24.860 --> 01:39:25.568 align:middle line:90% He certainly did. 01:39:25.568 --> 01:39:26.985 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I mean, because he 01:39:26.985 --> 01:39:28.977 align:middle line:84% seemed to come in with a goal and a purpose. 01:39:28.977 --> 01:39:30.560 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, he was pretty focused. 01:39:30.560 --> 01:39:34.220 align:middle line:84% He raised the standards and shifted the standards. 01:39:34.220 --> 01:39:38.340 align:middle line:84% He managed to come up with incentives 01:39:38.340 --> 01:39:42.650 align:middle line:84% to make things happen the way he wanted them to happen. 01:39:42.650 --> 01:39:46.970 align:middle line:84% He and Stillson, Stillson was very 01:39:46.970 --> 01:39:48.690 align:middle line:84% good at coming up with incentives 01:39:48.690 --> 01:39:51.070 align:middle line:84% to get people to do the kinds of things he wanted done. 01:39:51.070 --> 01:39:54.953 align:middle line:84% He was more controversial guy and a tougher character. 01:39:54.953 --> 01:39:57.370 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He took the flack for a lot of the changes 01:39:57.370 --> 01:39:58.270 align:middle line:90% that got made. 01:39:58.270 --> 01:39:59.870 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: He was pretty hard-nosed character. 01:39:59.870 --> 01:40:01.620 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: People do not like change. 01:40:01.620 --> 01:40:03.570 align:middle line:84% They're set in their ways in the South 01:40:03.570 --> 01:40:06.710 align:middle line:84% as well as anywhere else in the world and don't like change. 01:40:06.710 --> 01:40:08.830 align:middle line:84% So always, the change makers are targets. 01:40:08.830 --> 01:40:09.997 align:middle line:90% That's just the way it goes. 01:40:09.997 --> 01:40:13.170 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But Hansen hired Stillson 01:40:13.170 --> 01:40:14.270 align:middle line:90% to be dean of engineering. 01:40:14.270 --> 01:40:17.370 align:middle line:84% That's how Stillson came here from Carnegie Mellon. 01:40:17.370 --> 01:40:21.210 align:middle line:84% And then when Pettit came along, I guess, 01:40:21.210 --> 01:40:23.330 align:middle line:84% Stillson first became vice president 01:40:23.330 --> 01:40:24.510 align:middle line:90% for research or something. 01:40:24.510 --> 01:40:27.970 align:middle line:84% And then, I guess, Crecine made him-- 01:40:27.970 --> 01:40:29.290 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Later, yeah. 01:40:29.290 --> 01:40:31.210 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --later provost or something. 01:40:31.210 --> 01:40:34.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, so Hansen did have an impact 01:40:34.210 --> 01:40:35.470 align:middle line:90% in that he brought Stillson. 01:40:35.470 --> 01:40:36.970 align:middle line:84% I mean, that is something in the way 01:40:36.970 --> 01:40:39.303 align:middle line:84% that-- and then that he must've gotten along good enough 01:40:39.303 --> 01:40:41.040 align:middle line:90% with Pettit to stay in. 01:40:41.040 --> 01:40:46.520 align:middle line:84% How much does politics influence a faculty person? 01:40:46.520 --> 01:40:47.320 align:middle line:90% You're teaching. 01:40:47.320 --> 01:40:48.320 align:middle line:90% You're in the classroom. 01:40:48.320 --> 01:40:50.083 align:middle line:90% And you're teaching. 01:40:50.083 --> 01:40:52.500 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, what do you mean, the academic politics? 01:40:52.500 --> 01:40:53.040 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah. 01:40:53.040 --> 01:40:53.680 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Are you talking about? 01:40:53.680 --> 01:40:54.560 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, I mean, just the changeover. 01:40:54.560 --> 01:40:55.720 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Eh, a little bit. 01:40:55.720 --> 01:40:57.240 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: The president comes in, goes out. 01:40:57.240 --> 01:40:58.540 align:middle line:90% And a new president comes in. 01:40:58.540 --> 01:41:00.160 align:middle line:84% And then there's the scurrying around 01:41:00.160 --> 01:41:01.900 align:middle line:84% of who's going to take what position. 01:41:01.900 --> 01:41:05.580 align:middle line:84% And is it disruptive to faculty to go through that? 01:41:05.580 --> 01:41:08.593 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, I mean, you get anxious about what's 01:41:08.593 --> 01:41:09.260 align:middle line:90% going to happen. 01:41:09.260 --> 01:41:10.440 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Are you going to get funded enough? 01:41:10.440 --> 01:41:12.280 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Is the next person going 01:41:12.280 --> 01:41:14.160 align:middle line:84% to be very different than the last one? 01:41:14.160 --> 01:41:14.760 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And is there going 01:41:14.760 --> 01:41:16.060 align:middle line:90% to be funding enough, always. 01:41:16.060 --> 01:41:17.940 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But they get over it in a hurry. 01:41:17.940 --> 01:41:22.560 align:middle line:84% A story I like to tell about how long faculty 01:41:22.560 --> 01:41:24.680 align:middle line:90% remember administrators was-- 01:41:24.680 --> 01:41:26.120 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:41:26.120 --> 01:41:31.040 align:middle line:84% --told to me by a guy at Berkeley, Dan 01:41:31.040 --> 01:41:34.280 align:middle line:84% Mote, who is now president of the University of Maryland. 01:41:34.280 --> 01:41:36.920 align:middle line:84% He was on our advisory board, ME's advisory board, 01:41:36.920 --> 01:41:37.420 align:middle line:90% for a while. 01:41:37.420 --> 01:41:39.670 align:middle line:84% And at one time, he was head of mechanical engineering 01:41:39.670 --> 01:41:40.280 align:middle line:90% at Berkeley. 01:41:40.280 --> 01:41:46.340 align:middle line:84% And then he became vice chancellor for external affairs 01:41:46.340 --> 01:41:47.700 align:middle line:90% at Berkeley. 01:41:47.700 --> 01:41:51.380 align:middle line:84% And the reason he became vice chancellor for external affairs 01:41:51.380 --> 01:41:54.300 align:middle line:84% is the chancellor at that time was also a mechanical engineer 01:41:54.300 --> 01:41:58.240 align:middle line:84% named Cheng Lin Chen, a Chinese-origin guy, 01:41:58.240 --> 01:42:01.340 align:middle line:84% but did his graduate work in this country. 01:42:01.340 --> 01:42:06.900 align:middle line:84% And Cheng Lin Chen was a very big driver on diversity. 01:42:06.900 --> 01:42:09.980 align:middle line:84% I mean, he was the lead guy in California 01:42:09.980 --> 01:42:12.920 align:middle line:84% and, certainly in engineering, lead-wide guy in the country, 01:42:12.920 --> 01:42:15.380 align:middle line:84% very well known heat-transfer guy. 01:42:15.380 --> 01:42:18.520 align:middle line:90% And he pushed diversity hard. 01:42:18.520 --> 01:42:21.160 align:middle line:84% And he served five years as chancellor. 01:42:21.160 --> 01:42:24.220 align:middle line:84% And then he went back to being a faculty member. 01:42:24.220 --> 01:42:26.920 align:middle line:84% Unfortunately, he later died of a brain tumor. 01:42:26.920 --> 01:42:31.660 align:middle line:84% But about five months after Cheng Lin Chen stepped down 01:42:31.660 --> 01:42:34.540 align:middle line:84% from being chancellor at Berkeley, 01:42:34.540 --> 01:42:37.410 align:middle line:84% a woman reporter from the student newspaper 01:42:37.410 --> 01:42:41.530 align:middle line:84% came to Dan Mote, vice chancellor for external affairs, 01:42:41.530 --> 01:42:43.890 align:middle line:84% to interview him about Berkeley's policies 01:42:43.890 --> 01:42:46.130 align:middle line:90% about diversity. 01:42:46.130 --> 01:42:49.528 align:middle line:84% And Dan Mote says to this young woman, well, 01:42:49.528 --> 01:42:51.070 align:middle line:84% I'll be glad to talk to you about it. 01:42:51.070 --> 01:42:52.820 align:middle line:84% But the person you really ought to talk to 01:42:52.820 --> 01:42:55.770 align:middle line:84% is Cheng Lin Chen because he was the main driving force. 01:42:55.770 --> 01:42:57.470 align:middle line:90% And she says, who's he? 01:42:57.470 --> 01:42:58.313 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:42:58.313 --> 01:43:00.730 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I knew that was going to be the punchline. 01:43:00.730 --> 01:43:02.650 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah. 01:43:02.650 --> 01:43:04.690 align:middle line:90% In today and out tomorrow. 01:43:04.690 --> 01:43:07.070 align:middle line:84% Yeah, we joke about that at Tech. 01:43:07.070 --> 01:43:10.890 align:middle line:84% Once you retire, people don't remember you after three months. 01:43:10.890 --> 01:43:13.790 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I mean, it's a pretty regular turnover. 01:43:13.790 --> 01:43:17.310 align:middle line:84% People tend to think of faculty being around for a long time. 01:43:17.310 --> 01:43:19.330 align:middle line:84% But, in fact, there's a fair amount of turnover. 01:43:19.330 --> 01:43:22.120 align:middle line:84% And there's a fair amount of turnover of presidents and deans 01:43:22.120 --> 01:43:22.870 align:middle line:90% and what have you. 01:43:22.870 --> 01:43:23.410 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's why, when we 01:43:23.410 --> 01:43:25.470 align:middle line:84% find somebody who stays as long as you did, 01:43:25.470 --> 01:43:26.830 align:middle line:90% we have to talk to them. 01:43:26.830 --> 01:43:28.710 align:middle line:90% Because what was the magic? 01:43:28.710 --> 01:43:30.007 align:middle line:90% How could you stay? 01:43:30.007 --> 01:43:30.590 align:middle line:90% How could you? 01:43:30.590 --> 01:43:32.010 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, one of the reasons 01:43:32.010 --> 01:43:33.390 align:middle line:90% was my wife didn't want to move. 01:43:33.390 --> 01:43:34.500 align:middle line:90% Once she got here-- 01:43:34.500 --> 01:43:35.440 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: She got paradise, 01:43:35.440 --> 01:43:36.820 align:middle line:90% and she was staying in paradise. 01:43:36.820 --> 01:43:37.620 align:middle line:90% She'd already paid her dues. 01:43:37.620 --> 01:43:39.140 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I mean, the early years I was here, 01:43:39.140 --> 01:43:40.220 align:middle line:90% I was not a happy camper. 01:43:40.220 --> 01:43:40.720 align:middle line:90% I mean, I-- 01:43:40.720 --> 01:43:42.740 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You had to adjust. 01:43:42.740 --> 01:43:44.440 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, not so much that. 01:43:44.440 --> 01:43:46.780 align:middle line:84% The department head who hired me-- 01:43:46.780 --> 01:43:51.200 align:middle line:84% I mean, he hired me because Hansen wanted him to hire me. 01:43:51.200 --> 01:43:53.200 align:middle line:84% It didn't take long after I was here 01:43:53.200 --> 01:43:56.263 align:middle line:84% to realize that he and I didn't have a match at all. 01:43:56.263 --> 01:43:57.680 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's always bad. 01:43:57.680 --> 01:44:00.220 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And lots of people didn't have a match with him. 01:44:00.220 --> 01:44:01.678 align:middle line:84% And there was a lot of controversy, 01:44:01.678 --> 01:44:05.400 align:middle line:84% a lot of turmoil among the faculty and him, 01:44:05.400 --> 01:44:07.760 align:middle line:84% and the administration about him. 01:44:07.760 --> 01:44:15.520 align:middle line:84% And I fought with them, with the faculty for a couple of years, 01:44:15.520 --> 01:44:16.020 align:middle line:90% I guess. 01:44:16.020 --> 01:44:18.080 align:middle line:84% We tried to convince the administration 01:44:18.080 --> 01:44:19.260 align:middle line:90% they should remove him. 01:44:19.260 --> 01:44:22.240 align:middle line:84% And of course, they stuck together and said, no, they 01:44:22.240 --> 01:44:23.060 align:middle line:90% weren't going to. 01:44:23.060 --> 01:44:24.600 align:middle line:84% And once that became pretty clear-- 01:44:24.600 --> 01:44:30.360 align:middle line:84% and actually, they non-reappointed four or five 01:44:30.360 --> 01:44:32.970 align:middle line:84% young faculty members at the time. 01:44:32.970 --> 01:44:35.550 align:middle line:84% I was already tenured, or else they probably 01:44:35.550 --> 01:44:37.270 align:middle line:90% would've nailed me, too. 01:44:37.270 --> 01:44:40.330 align:middle line:84% So it was obvious that nobody was putting up a fuss anymore. 01:44:40.330 --> 01:44:42.630 align:middle line:84% So I just stuck my nose in the book. 01:44:42.630 --> 01:44:44.510 align:middle line:84% And actually, it was probably good for me 01:44:44.510 --> 01:44:45.990 align:middle line:84% because it was during that period 01:44:45.990 --> 01:44:47.750 align:middle line:84% when I did most of the good research that 01:44:47.750 --> 01:44:49.878 align:middle line:84% got me the recognition that I got as a researcher. 01:44:49.878 --> 01:44:51.670 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Isn't that funny how things 01:44:51.670 --> 01:44:52.630 align:middle line:90% happen for the right-- 01:44:52.630 --> 01:44:57.270 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And so eventually, they did remove him in '82. 01:44:57.270 --> 01:45:00.603 align:middle line:84% And then things turned around for me. 01:45:00.603 --> 01:45:01.770 align:middle line:90% And things got a lot better. 01:45:01.770 --> 01:45:03.670 align:middle line:84% John Brighton came in as department head. 01:45:03.670 --> 01:45:05.530 align:middle line:90% And he and I got along well. 01:45:05.530 --> 01:45:07.093 align:middle line:90% And that made a big difference. 01:45:07.093 --> 01:45:08.510 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What did you think 01:45:08.510 --> 01:45:10.030 align:middle line:84% of the students you were getting, 01:45:10.030 --> 01:45:11.963 align:middle line:90% the caliber of the students? 01:45:11.963 --> 01:45:13.630 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, they were pretty good. 01:45:13.630 --> 01:45:20.990 align:middle line:84% Actually, most during that period, many of, 01:45:20.990 --> 01:45:22.670 align:middle line:84% at least the thesis students that I 01:45:22.670 --> 01:45:25.750 align:middle line:84% had working in my own lab, were from overseas. 01:45:25.750 --> 01:45:26.750 align:middle line:90% And they were very good. 01:45:26.750 --> 01:45:27.390 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you had a lot of foreign students. 01:45:27.390 --> 01:45:29.223 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, a lot of foreign students. 01:45:29.223 --> 01:45:31.050 align:middle line:90% I had a few US students. 01:45:31.050 --> 01:45:32.930 align:middle line:90% And they were good. 01:45:32.930 --> 01:45:35.857 align:middle line:84% The students in the classrooms were-- they were good. 01:45:35.857 --> 01:45:37.190 align:middle line:90% I mean, they were good students. 01:45:37.190 --> 01:45:39.490 align:middle line:84% I mean, obviously the caliber's increased a lot 01:45:39.490 --> 01:45:41.450 align:middle line:84% since that time, at least caliber 01:45:41.450 --> 01:45:46.700 align:middle line:84% based on the measure of the SAT scores and that sort of thing. 01:45:46.700 --> 01:45:48.450 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We got pickier and pickier 01:45:48.450 --> 01:45:49.710 align:middle line:90% about who we're letting in. 01:45:49.710 --> 01:45:51.770 align:middle line:84% But I've heard people talk about, especially 01:45:51.770 --> 01:45:54.290 align:middle line:84% with mechanical engineering, that a lot of tinkerers 01:45:54.290 --> 01:45:58.050 align:middle line:84% came back in the day that might not do so well on SATs 01:45:58.050 --> 01:46:00.110 align:middle line:84% and that, when we raise the standards too high, 01:46:00.110 --> 01:46:03.050 align:middle line:84% we wipe out those inventor-type people. 01:46:03.050 --> 01:46:04.390 align:middle line:90% Have you seen that to happen? 01:46:04.390 --> 01:46:04.570 align:middle line:90% No? 01:46:04.570 --> 01:46:06.310 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: There's probably something to that. 01:46:06.310 --> 01:46:07.768 align:middle line:84% There's probably something to that. 01:46:07.768 --> 01:46:10.730 align:middle line:84% But it's not just mechanical engineering. 01:46:10.730 --> 01:46:16.090 align:middle line:84% Students today across the board don't have nearly the experience 01:46:16.090 --> 01:46:19.870 align:middle line:84% of being tinkerers, as you put it, that they had in the past. 01:46:19.870 --> 01:46:22.513 align:middle line:84% And that's true, not just for mechanical engineering. 01:46:22.513 --> 01:46:24.430 align:middle line:84% Although I haven't talked to anybody about it, 01:46:24.430 --> 01:46:26.310 align:middle line:84% I'll bet it's true in electrical engineering. 01:46:26.310 --> 01:46:28.560 align:middle line:84% I've heard from people in chemistry 01:46:28.560 --> 01:46:31.300 align:middle line:84% at Michigan, not here, but at Michigan, 01:46:31.300 --> 01:46:36.560 align:middle line:84% that the students aren't nearly as adept at understanding 01:46:36.560 --> 01:46:39.400 align:middle line:84% chemistry as they were years ago when 01:46:39.400 --> 01:46:43.320 align:middle line:84% many of their students going into chemistry or chemical 01:46:43.320 --> 01:46:46.400 align:middle line:90% engineering came from farms. 01:46:46.400 --> 01:46:50.440 align:middle line:84% And they inherently understood chemistry and how it worked 01:46:50.440 --> 01:46:51.940 align:middle line:90% and how important it was. 01:46:51.940 --> 01:46:54.482 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's something when you interview people from 01:46:54.482 --> 01:46:55.440 align:middle line:90% the '40s and '50s. 01:46:55.440 --> 01:46:57.180 align:middle line:84% Just prior to your time coming here, 01:46:57.180 --> 01:47:00.120 align:middle line:84% even in the early '60s, it was easier to get into tech. 01:47:00.120 --> 01:47:02.620 align:middle line:84% And it was easier to get out of tech, too. 01:47:02.620 --> 01:47:04.300 align:middle line:84% I mean, people drop left and right, 01:47:04.300 --> 01:47:08.080 align:middle line:84% but also that some people just don't test well 01:47:08.080 --> 01:47:11.640 align:middle line:84% or don't show up good on SATs, and yet really have the ability 01:47:11.640 --> 01:47:13.520 align:middle line:84% to apply themselves once they get here 01:47:13.520 --> 01:47:15.020 align:middle line:90% under the right mentorship. 01:47:15.020 --> 01:47:21.440 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: The SATs or GRAs, either one of them, 01:47:21.440 --> 01:47:25.557 align:middle line:84% are not the telling measure of students. 01:47:25.557 --> 01:47:26.890 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: No, they're not. 01:47:26.890 --> 01:47:28.265 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: They're a common one. 01:47:28.265 --> 01:47:31.950 align:middle line:84% And they're uniform across the country. 01:47:31.950 --> 01:47:33.250 align:middle line:90% So it's one that can be done. 01:47:33.250 --> 01:47:36.610 align:middle line:84% But the real issue is, how much drive does the student have? 01:47:36.610 --> 01:47:42.410 align:middle line:84% How much inherent ingenuity do they have? 01:47:42.410 --> 01:47:45.812 align:middle line:84% And that's as important or more important than the SATs. 01:47:45.812 --> 01:47:47.270 align:middle line:84% But there's no way to measure that. 01:47:47.270 --> 01:47:48.870 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: There is no way to measure it until they come in 01:47:48.870 --> 01:47:49.690 align:middle line:90% and try it out. 01:47:49.690 --> 01:47:51.550 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 01:47:51.550 --> 01:47:54.530 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: The students at Tech, famously, 01:47:54.530 --> 01:47:56.190 align:middle line:84% were always too busy to be bothered 01:47:56.190 --> 01:47:58.833 align:middle line:84% with political uprisings or anything like that. 01:47:58.833 --> 01:48:00.750 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I think that's true of engineering 01:48:00.750 --> 01:48:01.890 align:middle line:90% students in general. 01:48:01.890 --> 01:48:06.070 align:middle line:84% And the reason Tech is different than other universities is 01:48:06.070 --> 01:48:09.970 align:middle line:84% engineering represents over 60% of the students. 01:48:09.970 --> 01:48:12.270 align:middle line:84% And a lot of the others are in physical sciences 01:48:12.270 --> 01:48:13.330 align:middle line:90% who are very similar. 01:48:13.330 --> 01:48:15.210 align:middle line:84% They tend to be more conservative. 01:48:15.210 --> 01:48:18.430 align:middle line:84% They tend to be less involved in political issues 01:48:18.430 --> 01:48:20.270 align:middle line:90% or issues of the day. 01:48:20.270 --> 01:48:24.810 align:middle line:84% And that's true at, I think it's fair to say, 01:48:24.810 --> 01:48:26.710 align:middle line:90% at most major universities. 01:48:26.710 --> 01:48:28.650 align:middle line:84% It's just that, at a major university, 01:48:28.650 --> 01:48:30.470 align:middle line:90% engineering is a small package. 01:48:30.470 --> 01:48:35.050 align:middle line:84% I mean, at Michigan, engineering is probably only about 5% or 6%. 01:48:35.050 --> 01:48:37.922 align:middle line:84% Places like Berkeley and Stanford, 01:48:37.922 --> 01:48:40.130 align:middle line:84% MIT is different because they're heavily engineering. 01:48:40.130 --> 01:48:40.850 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's logistics that 01:48:40.850 --> 01:48:41.850 align:middle line:90% have created that environment. 01:48:41.850 --> 01:48:44.050 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It's just the proportion of people. 01:48:44.050 --> 01:48:47.418 align:middle line:84% It's not that Tech is fundamentally different as Tech. 01:48:47.418 --> 01:48:49.210 align:middle line:84% It's just that it's dominantly engineering. 01:48:49.210 --> 01:48:51.750 align:middle line:84% And dominantly, they're a different breed of cats. 01:48:51.750 --> 01:48:55.050 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you dug in and focused on your research 01:48:55.050 --> 01:48:56.770 align:middle line:90% and spent some time laying low-- 01:48:56.770 --> 01:48:57.503 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 01:48:57.503 --> 01:48:59.170 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: --and enjoying teaching. 01:48:59.170 --> 01:49:00.490 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, oh, yeah. 01:49:00.490 --> 01:49:01.450 align:middle line:90% I enjoyed teaching. 01:49:01.450 --> 01:49:04.730 align:middle line:84% I did a fair amount of consulting, 01:49:04.730 --> 01:49:07.170 align:middle line:84% did a lot of research, a lot of publishing, 01:49:07.170 --> 01:49:09.703 align:middle line:84% and a fair amount of research money, and graduate students. 01:49:09.703 --> 01:49:11.870 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So life was going along pretty good. 01:49:11.870 --> 01:49:12.995 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, oh, yeah. 01:49:12.995 --> 01:49:15.410 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And then Dr. Pettit came. 01:49:15.410 --> 01:49:16.763 align:middle line:90% Well, we already said he came. 01:49:16.763 --> 01:49:17.930 align:middle line:90% You got along with him fine. 01:49:17.930 --> 01:49:19.690 align:middle line:90% He did the right things. 01:49:19.690 --> 01:49:21.970 align:middle line:84% At what point in time did you transcend 01:49:21.970 --> 01:49:26.920 align:middle line:84% from being faculty to being administrator, 01:49:26.920 --> 01:49:28.160 align:middle line:90% taking that responsibility? 01:49:28.160 --> 01:49:29.223 align:middle line:90% 1988? 01:49:29.223 --> 01:49:30.140 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, '88. 01:49:30.140 --> 01:49:34.725 align:middle line:84% And I think it was the beginning of December '87. 01:49:34.725 --> 01:49:36.600 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: By this time, we already knew 01:49:36.600 --> 01:49:39.240 align:middle line:90% that Pettit was sick. 01:49:39.240 --> 01:49:41.840 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yes, yep, yep. 01:49:41.840 --> 01:49:43.780 align:middle line:84% This was towards the end of his time there. 01:49:43.780 --> 01:49:46.680 align:middle line:90% 01:49:46.680 --> 01:49:53.800 align:middle line:84% Well, I had been after Kezios was removed 01:49:53.800 --> 01:49:56.680 align:middle line:84% and Brighton came in '82, I started 01:49:56.680 --> 01:50:00.380 align:middle line:84% getting involved in faculty service things. 01:50:00.380 --> 01:50:02.960 align:middle line:84% I was involved in the committee that 01:50:02.960 --> 01:50:05.600 align:middle line:84% wrote the first set of faculty statutes 01:50:05.600 --> 01:50:10.200 align:middle line:84% for the faculty handbook, with a guy named Walker from math. 01:50:10.200 --> 01:50:14.760 align:middle line:84% I was elected to the first executive board 01:50:14.760 --> 01:50:18.320 align:middle line:84% and was chair of the first executive board. 01:50:18.320 --> 01:50:20.540 align:middle line:84% And so I got to know Pettit quite well through that. 01:50:20.540 --> 01:50:22.050 align:middle line:84% And Vernon Crawford, I knew-- well, 01:50:22.050 --> 01:50:25.750 align:middle line:84% I met Vernon Crawford when I first 01:50:25.750 --> 01:50:27.912 align:middle line:84% came here because he and Hansen were buddies. 01:50:27.912 --> 01:50:29.370 align:middle line:84% And so Hansen introduced me to him. 01:50:29.370 --> 01:50:29.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What a lovely man he was. 01:50:29.790 --> 01:50:30.832 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, he was. 01:50:30.832 --> 01:50:33.430 align:middle line:90% He was great. 01:50:33.430 --> 01:50:39.630 align:middle line:84% And so I'd sort of gotten back involved in faculty activities. 01:50:39.630 --> 01:50:44.590 align:middle line:84% In the early '70s, I was involved in the s I became, 01:50:44.590 --> 01:50:47.077 align:middle line:84% I don't know, vice chair or chair of the tech chapter. 01:50:47.077 --> 01:50:48.910 align:middle line:84% And then I was vice president of the Georgia 01:50:48.910 --> 01:50:51.510 align:middle line:90% chapter of AAUP for a year. 01:50:51.510 --> 01:50:53.770 align:middle line:84% And then I kind of got out of all that stuff. 01:50:53.770 --> 01:50:55.810 align:middle line:84% And then, when Brighton came in '82, 01:50:55.810 --> 01:50:58.430 align:middle line:90% I started getting back involved. 01:50:58.430 --> 01:51:03.110 align:middle line:84% And I think it was the beginning of December '87 01:51:03.110 --> 01:51:07.670 align:middle line:84% that Brighton announced that he was leaving 01:51:07.670 --> 01:51:11.630 align:middle line:90% to become dean at Penn State. 01:51:11.630 --> 01:51:14.570 align:middle line:90% And Bill Sangster asked me-- 01:51:14.570 --> 01:51:19.130 align:middle line:84% I'd been told later that a few faculty leaders went up to him 01:51:19.130 --> 01:51:21.630 align:middle line:84% and said, you ought to point Winer as interim. 01:51:21.630 --> 01:51:28.610 align:middle line:84% And so Bill Sangster asked me if I would be acting director. 01:51:28.610 --> 01:51:31.050 align:middle line:84% And I said, yes, on the condition 01:51:31.050 --> 01:51:33.270 align:middle line:84% that I can also be a candidate for the job. 01:51:33.270 --> 01:51:36.287 align:middle line:84% Because up until that time, it was pretty standard-- 01:51:36.287 --> 01:51:37.870 align:middle line:84% I don't think it was written anyplace. 01:51:37.870 --> 01:51:39.930 align:middle line:84% But it was pretty standard policy 01:51:39.930 --> 01:51:42.672 align:middle line:84% that, if somebody was acting in a position, 01:51:42.672 --> 01:51:44.630 align:middle line:84% there couldn't be a candidate for the position. 01:51:44.630 --> 01:51:46.870 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, it was smart of you to clear that. 01:51:46.870 --> 01:51:48.620 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So he said, yeah, that was OK. 01:51:48.620 --> 01:51:54.217 align:middle line:84% Well, they interviewed at least two people from the outside. 01:51:54.217 --> 01:51:55.550 align:middle line:90% I can only remember one of them. 01:51:55.550 --> 01:51:57.770 align:middle line:84% I can't remember the other's name. 01:51:57.770 --> 01:52:00.290 align:middle line:84% And it took them until about October 01:52:00.290 --> 01:52:03.050 align:middle line:84% to decide that they were going to give me the job. 01:52:03.050 --> 01:52:05.850 align:middle line:84% So it was October '88 when I became 01:52:05.850 --> 01:52:09.380 align:middle line:90% regular director of the school. 01:52:09.380 --> 01:52:11.130 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Was it a good, little time 01:52:11.130 --> 01:52:12.088 align:middle line:90% to transcend to that? 01:52:12.088 --> 01:52:13.130 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was. 01:52:13.130 --> 01:52:16.030 align:middle line:84% It was because, well, for one thing, it was interesting, 01:52:16.030 --> 01:52:19.680 align:middle line:84% which probably, well, certainly helped my case. 01:52:19.680 --> 01:52:23.200 align:middle line:84% In February, while I was acting chair, 01:52:23.200 --> 01:52:25.280 align:middle line:84% I was informed that I was elected to the National 01:52:25.280 --> 01:52:26.365 align:middle line:90% Academy of Engineering. 01:52:26.365 --> 01:52:28.740 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I don't think that hurt your case at all. 01:52:28.740 --> 01:52:33.200 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it turned out, up until that time, 01:52:33.200 --> 01:52:38.300 align:middle line:90% only Joe Pettit was a member. 01:52:38.300 --> 01:52:41.400 align:middle line:84% And I think, the year before I became a member, 01:52:41.400 --> 01:52:42.825 align:middle line:90% John White became a member. 01:52:42.825 --> 01:52:44.200 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So we can say you 01:52:44.200 --> 01:52:46.120 align:middle line:84% were right at the very forefront of that. 01:52:46.120 --> 01:52:49.640 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And then the year I became a member, 01:52:49.640 --> 01:52:51.400 align:middle line:84% Bob Nerem also became-- he had just 01:52:51.400 --> 01:52:53.960 align:middle line:84% been hired about six months earlier 01:52:53.960 --> 01:52:55.220 align:middle line:90% into mechanical engineering. 01:52:55.220 --> 01:52:59.000 align:middle line:84% And we were both inducted the same time. 01:52:59.000 --> 01:53:01.480 align:middle line:84% And so, all of a sudden, Tech went 01:53:01.480 --> 01:53:04.800 align:middle line:84% from two members of the National Academy of Engineering to four. 01:53:04.800 --> 01:53:05.740 align:middle line:90% And I was one of them. 01:53:05.740 --> 01:53:09.400 align:middle line:84% So, I mean, that certainly helped my case a little bit. 01:53:09.400 --> 01:53:12.860 align:middle line:84% And so I figured, if I got the job, 01:53:12.860 --> 01:53:16.690 align:middle line:84% it was time to do something else, which I have done. 01:53:16.690 --> 01:53:22.030 align:middle line:84% I kept research going for about probably 10, 12 years. 01:53:22.030 --> 01:53:23.790 align:middle line:84% But it kind of tapered off because the job 01:53:23.790 --> 01:53:24.730 align:middle line:90% got bigger and bigger. 01:53:24.730 --> 01:53:25.730 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, yes. 01:53:25.730 --> 01:53:28.230 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And my last PhD student 01:53:28.230 --> 01:53:33.090 align:middle line:84% graduated about, maybe, well, at least two, 01:53:33.090 --> 01:53:34.330 align:middle line:90% maybe three years ago. 01:53:34.330 --> 01:53:36.350 align:middle line:84% So I had PhD students up until that time. 01:53:36.350 --> 01:53:38.230 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: All this time, all the way up until then. 01:53:38.230 --> 01:53:39.430 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But then I just decided 01:53:39.430 --> 01:53:40.888 align:middle line:84% I wasn't going to take any more on. 01:53:40.888 --> 01:53:42.110 align:middle line:90% I didn't have time. 01:53:42.110 --> 01:53:46.566 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Isn't that funny how it eats up your time? 01:53:46.566 --> 01:53:48.590 align:middle line:84% You know, Ward, I've interviewed a lot 01:53:48.590 --> 01:53:50.790 align:middle line:90% of people that knew Pettit. 01:53:50.790 --> 01:53:53.190 align:middle line:84% And, as we had talked earlier, I felt bad 01:53:53.190 --> 01:53:54.945 align:middle line:84% that we didn't get Janice Sangster's story 01:53:54.945 --> 01:53:57.070 align:middle line:84% because she would've known him better than anybody. 01:53:57.070 --> 01:53:59.790 align:middle line:84% But he comes across through the other peoples' stories 01:53:59.790 --> 01:54:03.110 align:middle line:84% as a kind of a mixed bag, that he was very stern 01:54:03.110 --> 01:54:05.710 align:middle line:84% and focused, and begin to research 01:54:05.710 --> 01:54:07.870 align:middle line:84% and very academic, and yet, other times, 01:54:07.870 --> 01:54:10.790 align:middle line:84% that he loved to play the piano, that he was happy and sang, 01:54:10.790 --> 01:54:13.470 align:middle line:84% and that he was interested in sports. 01:54:13.470 --> 01:54:16.250 align:middle line:84% I mean, zealously interested in football 01:54:16.250 --> 01:54:19.590 align:middle line:84% and always full of suggestions and such like that. 01:54:19.590 --> 01:54:21.030 align:middle line:90% How did he strike you? 01:54:21.030 --> 01:54:22.430 align:middle line:90% How did you know him as? 01:54:22.430 --> 01:54:26.450 align:middle line:90% 01:54:26.450 --> 01:54:30.490 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I would say, in general, a fairly serious 01:54:30.490 --> 01:54:33.270 align:middle line:90% guy. 01:54:33.270 --> 01:54:34.270 align:middle line:90% But you got to remember. 01:54:34.270 --> 01:54:35.875 align:middle line:90% I was a faculty member. 01:54:35.875 --> 01:54:36.750 align:middle line:90% He was the president. 01:54:36.750 --> 01:54:39.010 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He was the president, yeah. 01:54:39.010 --> 01:54:41.610 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Probably most of the interaction we had 01:54:41.610 --> 01:54:47.530 align:middle line:84% was when I was chair of the executive board for a couple 01:54:47.530 --> 01:54:49.030 align:middle line:90% of years, and he was president. 01:54:49.030 --> 01:54:52.690 align:middle line:90% So we met fairly regularly. 01:54:52.690 --> 01:54:58.410 align:middle line:84% We had another interaction, which may be worth telling here. 01:54:58.410 --> 01:55:01.350 align:middle line:84% As I said, not too long after I got here, 01:55:01.350 --> 01:55:04.330 align:middle line:84% it was obvious that the department head was not somebody 01:55:04.330 --> 01:55:06.650 align:middle line:84% that either I or several of the other people 01:55:06.650 --> 01:55:08.350 align:middle line:90% could hit it off with. 01:55:08.350 --> 01:55:10.510 align:middle line:84% Pettit was president at that time. 01:55:10.510 --> 01:55:15.180 align:middle line:84% Vernon Crawford was a vice president of academic affairs. 01:55:15.180 --> 01:55:18.200 align:middle line:90% 01:55:18.200 --> 01:55:23.330 align:middle line:84% Stillson, I don't know whether he was vice president-- yeah, 01:55:23.330 --> 01:55:25.580 align:middle line:84% I think he was vice president of research at the time. 01:55:25.580 --> 01:55:28.520 align:middle line:90% And Sangster was dean. 01:55:28.520 --> 01:55:32.580 align:middle line:84% And I was a young guy, obviously, a young turk. 01:55:32.580 --> 01:55:36.080 align:middle line:84% But there were some older people that were pretty upset with him 01:55:36.080 --> 01:55:37.460 align:middle line:90% as well, the department head. 01:55:37.460 --> 01:55:41.740 align:middle line:84% And so we had a meeting with-- we had a meeting with Sangster. 01:55:41.740 --> 01:55:48.360 align:middle line:84% And then we had a meeting with Crawford to air our concerns. 01:55:48.360 --> 01:55:53.760 align:middle line:84% And they didn't agree with us, not surprisingly. 01:55:53.760 --> 01:55:57.260 align:middle line:84% And the upshot of it was that, as I said earlier, 01:55:57.260 --> 01:56:00.600 align:middle line:84% I think four or five young people who were untenured 01:56:00.600 --> 01:56:03.760 align:middle line:90% got non-reappointed. 01:56:03.760 --> 01:56:05.720 align:middle line:84% So that was a pretty clear signal. 01:56:05.720 --> 01:56:08.160 align:middle line:84% And some people really got hurt in the process. 01:56:08.160 --> 01:56:10.050 align:middle line:84% One of the people that got non-reappointed, 01:56:10.050 --> 01:56:13.633 align:middle line:84% a guy named Uwe Bauder, who was German, 01:56:13.633 --> 01:56:15.550 align:middle line:84% he had been at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base 01:56:15.550 --> 01:56:21.630 align:middle line:84% and was hired here to head up an important research area, 01:56:21.630 --> 01:56:24.030 align:middle line:84% at the time, that we had invested in, 01:56:24.030 --> 01:56:28.590 align:middle line:84% decided to fight it, fight his non-reappointment. 01:56:28.590 --> 01:56:31.990 align:middle line:84% And he got the AAUP to support him 01:56:31.990 --> 01:56:37.830 align:middle line:84% in a suit against the Institute for improper dismissal. 01:56:37.830 --> 01:56:41.010 align:middle line:84% And, to make a long story short, I mean, 01:56:41.010 --> 01:56:42.870 align:middle line:84% he sent a grievance up the line all the way 01:56:42.870 --> 01:56:43.870 align:middle line:90% to the board of regents. 01:56:43.870 --> 01:56:45.410 align:middle line:90% And they all rejected it. 01:56:45.410 --> 01:56:48.950 align:middle line:84% And so then he could go to court, which he did. 01:56:48.950 --> 01:56:51.210 align:middle line:84% I think it was probably a superior court in Atlanta. 01:56:51.210 --> 01:56:52.130 align:middle line:90% But I'm not sure. 01:56:52.130 --> 01:56:56.790 align:middle line:84% But, in any event, I was ordered by the court 01:56:56.790 --> 01:56:58.130 align:middle line:90% to come and be a witness. 01:56:58.130 --> 01:56:59.130 align:middle line:90% I didn't want to be. 01:56:59.130 --> 01:57:02.670 align:middle line:84% And I certainly didn't volunteer to be. 01:57:02.670 --> 01:57:04.850 align:middle line:84% So I was ordered to come and be a witness. 01:57:04.850 --> 01:57:06.030 align:middle line:90% And I'll never forget. 01:57:06.030 --> 01:57:09.050 align:middle line:84% I'm in the witness stand in court. 01:57:09.050 --> 01:57:13.570 align:middle line:84% And sitting as far as from me to the cameraman over there, 01:57:13.570 --> 01:57:18.890 align:middle line:84% in the front row in the court are Joe Pettit, Vernon Crawford, 01:57:18.890 --> 01:57:21.190 align:middle line:84% Bill Sangster, and Scotty Kezios, 01:57:21.190 --> 01:57:22.890 align:middle line:90% who was the department head. 01:57:22.890 --> 01:57:26.470 align:middle line:84% They're sitting there while I'm being quizzed. 01:57:26.470 --> 01:57:28.970 align:middle line:84% I mean, I just answered the questions as honestly as I could 01:57:28.970 --> 01:57:30.870 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Under oath, you'd have to. 01:57:30.870 --> 01:57:32.430 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: And so that was it. 01:57:32.430 --> 01:57:34.490 align:middle line:84% But, I mean, it made a big impression on me. 01:57:34.490 --> 01:57:36.930 align:middle line:84% But later, I mean, Vernon Crawford and I 01:57:36.930 --> 01:57:39.750 align:middle line:84% were, I would say, on very good terms. 01:57:39.750 --> 01:57:43.650 align:middle line:84% All of us were on good terms, except for Kezios, at the time. 01:57:43.650 --> 01:57:46.930 align:middle line:84% And to all of their credit, Pettit's 01:57:46.930 --> 01:57:50.670 align:middle line:84% as well as Crawford and Sangster, I mean, 01:57:50.670 --> 01:57:54.690 align:middle line:84% they all treated me very well afterwards and obviously 01:57:54.690 --> 01:57:56.850 align:middle line:84% appointed me to be chair of the school 01:57:56.850 --> 01:57:58.890 align:middle line:90% of mechanical engineering. 01:57:58.890 --> 01:58:00.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: How did the case end up? 01:58:00.570 --> 01:58:01.490 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, he lost. 01:58:01.490 --> 01:58:02.050 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: He did lose? 01:58:02.050 --> 01:58:02.925 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 01:58:02.925 --> 01:58:06.360 align:middle line:84% I mean, you don't have much of a chance in those kind of cases. 01:58:06.360 --> 01:58:07.240 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, you did the right thing. 01:58:07.240 --> 01:58:07.480 align:middle line:84% And they respected you for doing that. 01:58:07.480 --> 01:58:09.355 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It was an interesting experience. 01:58:09.355 --> 01:58:11.120 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 01:58:11.120 --> 01:58:14.880 align:middle line:84% Another interesting story I had with him, 01:58:14.880 --> 01:58:21.040 align:middle line:84% when I was chair of the executive committee, he 01:58:21.040 --> 01:58:22.978 align:middle line:90% and his wife, was it-- 01:58:22.978 --> 01:58:24.020 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Florence. 01:58:24.020 --> 01:58:27.840 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Florence, yeah, invited Mary and I 01:58:27.840 --> 01:58:31.900 align:middle line:84% out to dinner and to the Alliance Theater to a play. 01:58:31.900 --> 01:58:34.520 align:middle line:84% They had tickets to the alliance theater. 01:58:34.520 --> 01:58:36.100 align:middle line:84% And they would invite various people. 01:58:36.100 --> 01:58:38.800 align:middle line:90% Anyway, they invited us. 01:58:38.800 --> 01:58:42.580 align:middle line:90% And we had a dog at the time. 01:58:42.580 --> 01:58:45.538 align:middle line:84% The dog moved in with us when we moved in here. 01:58:45.538 --> 01:58:47.580 align:middle line:84% The neighbors thought we brought the dog with us. 01:58:47.580 --> 01:58:48.955 align:middle line:84% We thought it was the neighbors'. 01:58:48.955 --> 01:58:51.260 align:middle line:84% It was just a stray that moved in with us. 01:58:51.260 --> 01:58:55.400 align:middle line:84% And the dog lived for 16 or 17 years. 01:58:55.400 --> 01:58:57.840 align:middle line:90% And it died. 01:58:57.840 --> 01:59:03.710 align:middle line:84% It died about two or three weeks before we 01:59:03.710 --> 01:59:05.470 align:middle line:90% were invited to this play. 01:59:05.470 --> 01:59:08.470 align:middle line:84% Well, it turned out, we, Mary and I had already 01:59:08.470 --> 01:59:09.667 align:middle line:90% been to the play. 01:59:09.667 --> 01:59:11.750 align:middle line:84% But we didn't dare tell them we'd been to the play 01:59:11.750 --> 01:59:13.910 align:middle line:84% and say, no, we're going to turn down your invitation. 01:59:13.910 --> 01:59:15.327 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You can't do that. 01:59:15.327 --> 01:59:17.510 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And one of the things in the play 01:59:17.510 --> 01:59:19.350 align:middle line:90% was a dog had died. 01:59:19.350 --> 01:59:22.590 align:middle line:84% And a guy was carrying the dead dog's body around 01:59:22.590 --> 01:59:23.850 align:middle line:90% in a gunny sack. 01:59:23.850 --> 01:59:24.430 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 01:59:24.430 --> 01:59:25.250 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, no. 01:59:25.250 --> 01:59:27.208 align:middle line:84% And so there's you and Mary having to see this. 01:59:27.208 --> 01:59:28.463 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 01:59:28.463 --> 01:59:30.130 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: We just had to see it twice. 01:59:30.130 --> 01:59:33.190 align:middle line:84% I think it was in between the time we saw it the first time 01:59:33.190 --> 01:59:36.080 align:middle line:84% and the time we went with the Pettits, our dog had died. 01:59:36.080 --> 01:59:38.330 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, my goodness, what a story that is. 01:59:38.330 --> 01:59:39.770 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No, you mentioned-- 01:59:39.770 --> 01:59:41.450 align:middle line:90% I didn't know he played piano. 01:59:41.450 --> 01:59:44.790 align:middle line:84% But he was also a photographer, a pretty good photographer. 01:59:44.790 --> 01:59:46.290 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I did not know that. 01:59:46.290 --> 01:59:49.670 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, the only way I know that is, at one time, 01:59:49.670 --> 01:59:55.150 align:middle line:84% I'm not sure when, probably in the mid '80s or something, 01:59:55.150 --> 01:59:58.670 align:middle line:84% I think it was the students put on a photo show, 01:59:58.670 --> 02:00:01.100 align:middle line:90% student photo show. 02:00:01.100 --> 02:00:03.800 align:middle line:84% And they invited him to put some of his work there. 02:00:03.800 --> 02:00:04.620 align:middle line:90% And he did. 02:00:04.620 --> 02:00:07.180 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: No one's ever told me that about him. 02:00:07.180 --> 02:00:08.480 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, so he was-- 02:00:08.480 --> 02:00:10.022 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's funny how people 02:00:10.022 --> 02:00:12.300 align:middle line:84% can be different things to different people. 02:00:12.300 --> 02:00:17.740 align:middle line:84% But someone told me, some other interview that I did 02:00:17.740 --> 02:00:22.900 align:middle line:84% told me that he was really quite gregarious in small situations 02:00:22.900 --> 02:00:24.440 align:middle line:90% but could be quite stern. 02:00:24.440 --> 02:00:27.320 align:middle line:84% Now, he got along very well with the Atlanta political community. 02:00:27.320 --> 02:00:31.260 align:middle line:84% He was very good about building networks, which-- 02:00:31.260 --> 02:00:36.017 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, he was a very straightforward guy. 02:00:36.017 --> 02:00:37.600 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Got along great with-- 02:00:37.600 --> 02:00:40.100 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: He had a good great reputation. 02:00:40.100 --> 02:00:42.060 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, yeah, he did have a great-- 02:00:42.060 --> 02:00:44.220 align:middle line:84% no one has ever said an unkind word about him. 02:00:44.220 --> 02:00:44.540 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No. 02:00:44.540 --> 02:00:46.420 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Other than he was, rather-- some people said 02:00:46.420 --> 02:00:47.400 align:middle line:90% he was rather cold. 02:00:47.400 --> 02:00:48.540 align:middle line:90% He was rather cool. 02:00:48.540 --> 02:00:49.248 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:00:49.248 --> 02:00:52.020 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Not real effusive about things. 02:00:52.020 --> 02:00:55.420 align:middle line:84% He obviously nurtured the Coca-Cola relationship 02:00:55.420 --> 02:00:57.640 align:middle line:84% and the George Woodruff relationship, 02:00:57.640 --> 02:00:59.720 align:middle line:84% which ultimately turned out to be a nice thing. 02:00:59.720 --> 02:01:01.720 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Helped us a lot. 02:01:01.720 --> 02:01:03.680 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: For which we're all grateful. 02:01:03.680 --> 02:01:06.850 align:middle line:84% Because I have some footage of George Woodruff and Pettit. 02:01:06.850 --> 02:01:08.100 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, is that right? 02:01:08.100 --> 02:01:10.820 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, that the I guess I got from the family. 02:01:10.820 --> 02:01:13.140 align:middle line:84% But I think you all have that already, anyways. 02:01:13.140 --> 02:01:15.840 align:middle line:84% But it was interesting to see the relationship between the two 02:01:15.840 --> 02:01:16.420 align:middle line:90% of them. 02:01:16.420 --> 02:01:18.140 align:middle line:90% Well, his death came as a big-- 02:01:18.140 --> 02:01:19.800 align:middle line:84% well, not a shock because everyone 02:01:19.800 --> 02:01:22.837 align:middle line:84% knew he was dying, but at a very inopportune time for Georgia 02:01:22.837 --> 02:01:24.920 align:middle line:84% Tech since all the big celebration for the capital 02:01:24.920 --> 02:01:26.360 align:middle line:90% campaign was going on. 02:01:26.360 --> 02:01:30.460 align:middle line:84% The first big, big effort to be a fundraising, 02:01:30.460 --> 02:01:34.320 align:middle line:84% pull this place up from, there had been fundraising attempts 02:01:34.320 --> 02:01:37.640 align:middle line:84% 50 and 70 years before that, but not 02:01:37.640 --> 02:01:40.880 align:middle line:84% on the scale that they undertook under Pettit's leadership. 02:01:40.880 --> 02:01:42.360 align:middle line:90% And then he passed away. 02:01:42.360 --> 02:01:45.820 align:middle line:84% And the campaign was very successful. 02:01:45.820 --> 02:01:48.360 align:middle line:84% And then along comes the big search 02:01:48.360 --> 02:01:50.300 align:middle line:90% for another new president. 02:01:50.300 --> 02:01:51.260 align:middle line:90% Here we are again. 02:01:51.260 --> 02:01:54.000 align:middle line:84% We're going to look for a president. 02:01:54.000 --> 02:01:55.540 align:middle line:84% Were you on that search committee? 02:01:55.540 --> 02:01:56.420 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: I chaired it. 02:01:56.420 --> 02:01:57.240 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I was afraid to ask you. 02:01:57.240 --> 02:01:58.782 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I've never lived it down. 02:01:58.782 --> 02:02:01.630 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 02:02:01.630 --> 02:02:03.950 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We all have those things in our life. 02:02:03.950 --> 02:02:05.130 align:middle line:90% Why didn't I say no? 02:02:05.130 --> 02:02:06.725 align:middle line:84% You were not in a position to say no. 02:02:06.725 --> 02:02:07.350 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No. 02:02:07.350 --> 02:02:09.058 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I'm sure you were invited 02:02:09.058 --> 02:02:12.590 align:middle line:90% to chair that committee. 02:02:12.590 --> 02:02:14.203 align:middle line:90% Crecine was a change maker. 02:02:14.203 --> 02:02:14.870 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 02:02:14.870 --> 02:02:15.830 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I don't know if that 02:02:15.830 --> 02:02:17.290 align:middle line:90% was his intention when he came. 02:02:17.290 --> 02:02:18.755 align:middle line:84% But he really was a change maker. 02:02:18.755 --> 02:02:19.630 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Probably. 02:02:19.630 --> 02:02:22.090 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And people don't like changes. 02:02:22.090 --> 02:02:24.790 align:middle line:84% So of course, it was going to be controversial. 02:02:24.790 --> 02:02:27.050 align:middle line:84% But even his hiring was controversial. 02:02:27.050 --> 02:02:28.550 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 02:02:28.550 --> 02:02:30.990 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Dictated from the board of regents? 02:02:30.990 --> 02:02:31.710 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yes. 02:02:31.710 --> 02:02:33.950 align:middle line:90% Actually, I would say, from-- 02:02:33.950 --> 02:02:36.083 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: A member of the board of regents? 02:02:36.083 --> 02:02:36.750 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 02:02:36.750 --> 02:02:37.570 align:middle line:90% What's her name? 02:02:37.570 --> 02:02:39.110 align:middle line:90% Jackie Ward. 02:02:39.110 --> 02:02:41.390 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, you're so good to see this. 02:02:41.390 --> 02:02:42.250 align:middle line:90% What happened? 02:02:42.250 --> 02:02:43.830 align:middle line:90% What was going on? 02:02:43.830 --> 02:02:45.890 align:middle line:84% Did you have decent candidates from all over? 02:02:45.890 --> 02:02:48.390 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, we did, actually. 02:02:48.390 --> 02:02:50.650 align:middle line:84% I don't what kind of number we started out with. 02:02:50.650 --> 02:03:01.100 align:middle line:84% But I think we interviewed five or six people, not on campus. 02:03:01.100 --> 02:03:06.480 align:middle line:84% We interviewed them downtown in a law office. 02:03:06.480 --> 02:03:07.520 align:middle line:90% Gosh, what was it? 02:03:07.520 --> 02:03:09.140 align:middle line:90% One of the people on the-- 02:03:09.140 --> 02:03:11.760 align:middle line:84% I think it may have been Alston and Bird's office. 02:03:11.760 --> 02:03:14.500 align:middle line:84% One of the people on the committee 02:03:14.500 --> 02:03:19.348 align:middle line:84% was an alum who was fairly high up in, 02:03:19.348 --> 02:03:20.640 align:middle line:90% I think it was Alston and Bird. 02:03:20.640 --> 02:03:22.420 align:middle line:90% I'm not sure. 02:03:22.420 --> 02:03:24.760 align:middle line:84% The committee had a couple of students on it. 02:03:24.760 --> 02:03:26.760 align:middle line:90% It had some other faculty on it. 02:03:26.760 --> 02:03:28.720 align:middle line:84% I remember Katharine Ross was on it. 02:03:28.720 --> 02:03:31.340 align:middle line:90% 02:03:31.340 --> 02:03:35.040 align:middle line:84% Sandra Thornton was on it, on the committee. 02:03:35.040 --> 02:03:36.160 align:middle line:90% Gosh, I can't remember. 02:03:36.160 --> 02:03:38.202 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So it was a goodly number of you. 02:03:38.202 --> 02:03:40.960 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I think Jean Kaminski was on it. 02:03:40.960 --> 02:03:43.440 align:middle line:84% John Aderhold, I think, was on it. 02:03:43.440 --> 02:03:45.260 align:middle line:90% I'm not real sure about that. 02:03:45.260 --> 02:03:55.413 align:middle line:84% And, well, initially, Love, what's his first name? 02:03:55.413 --> 02:03:56.580 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, Erskine. 02:03:56.580 --> 02:03:57.413 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Erskine. 02:03:57.413 --> 02:03:58.640 align:middle line:90% Erskine Love was on it. 02:03:58.640 --> 02:04:01.460 align:middle line:84% And actually, we had a morning meeting. 02:04:01.460 --> 02:04:04.000 align:middle line:84% The first meeting we had of the committee 02:04:04.000 --> 02:04:07.420 align:middle line:84% was a breakfast meeting in one of the clubs downtown. 02:04:07.420 --> 02:04:09.080 align:middle line:90% I don't remember which one. 02:04:09.080 --> 02:04:12.200 align:middle line:84% And Erskine Love sat next to me at the breakfast. 02:04:12.200 --> 02:04:14.213 align:middle line:84% And that was the afternoon that he died. 02:04:14.213 --> 02:04:15.380 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, my word. 02:04:15.380 --> 02:04:16.220 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:04:16.220 --> 02:04:17.440 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So his death really 02:04:17.440 --> 02:04:19.107 align:middle line:84% came as a huge shock to everybody, then. 02:04:19.107 --> 02:04:22.560 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It was, yeah, totally unexpected. 02:04:22.560 --> 02:04:29.880 align:middle line:84% And on the committee, there were two or three regents. 02:04:29.880 --> 02:04:31.352 align:middle line:90% One was Turner. 02:04:31.352 --> 02:04:33.060 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Big committee, wasn't it? 02:04:33.060 --> 02:04:34.280 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was. 02:04:34.280 --> 02:04:35.155 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Huge. 02:04:35.155 --> 02:04:40.800 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Turner, the guy from Columbus, Georgia, 02:04:40.800 --> 02:04:42.860 align:middle line:84% been on the board of regents for a long time. 02:04:42.860 --> 02:04:47.200 align:middle line:90% 02:04:47.200 --> 02:04:50.340 align:middle line:84% Who's the Black guy who's been on the regents for a long time? 02:04:50.340 --> 02:04:53.030 align:middle line:90% God, I can't think of his name. 02:04:53.030 --> 02:04:54.290 align:middle line:90% I'll think of it eventually. 02:04:54.290 --> 02:04:57.670 align:middle line:84% He'd been on the regents for a long time. 02:04:57.670 --> 02:05:04.670 align:middle line:84% And a woman regent, who I believe 02:05:04.670 --> 02:05:08.510 align:middle line:84% was actually chair of the board of regents at that time, 02:05:08.510 --> 02:05:12.390 align:middle line:84% she was with the Ivan Allen Company. 02:05:12.390 --> 02:05:15.970 align:middle line:84% Those are the three regents that I remember. 02:05:15.970 --> 02:05:20.030 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I don't whether it was another one or not. 02:05:20.030 --> 02:05:21.730 align:middle line:90% And they were very good. 02:05:21.730 --> 02:05:23.590 align:middle line:84% I mean, my respect for the regents 02:05:23.590 --> 02:05:25.870 align:middle line:84% went up tremendously at that time. 02:05:25.870 --> 02:05:29.310 align:middle line:84% All three of them were very good, very 02:05:29.310 --> 02:05:31.110 align:middle line:84% concerned about getting somebody who 02:05:31.110 --> 02:05:34.190 align:middle line:84% would be good for the place, who was somebody 02:05:34.190 --> 02:05:37.330 align:middle line:84% that the faculty would accept, and what have you. 02:05:37.330 --> 02:05:40.070 align:middle line:90% 02:05:40.070 --> 02:05:43.703 align:middle line:84% The other alums who were on it, gee-- 02:05:43.703 --> 02:05:45.370 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It was a huge committee. 02:05:45.370 --> 02:05:47.370 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was about 15, 02:05:47.370 --> 02:05:48.070 align:middle line:90% 18 people, something like that? 02:05:48.070 --> 02:05:49.530 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's a wonder we ever got anything done. 02:05:49.530 --> 02:05:51.340 align:middle line:84% How do you do that with that many people? 02:05:51.340 --> 02:05:52.215 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: You meet. 02:05:52.215 --> 02:05:53.100 align:middle line:90% And you run ads. 02:05:53.100 --> 02:05:57.380 align:middle line:84% And you seek candidates and what have you. 02:05:57.380 --> 02:06:05.660 align:middle line:84% Oh, God, an alum who used to own the building that's HR offices, 02:06:05.660 --> 02:06:07.500 align:middle line:84% I can't think of his name either. 02:06:07.500 --> 02:06:08.360 align:middle line:90% But, anyway-- 02:06:08.360 --> 02:06:09.640 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, Ziegler. 02:06:09.640 --> 02:06:10.550 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No, no. 02:06:10.550 --> 02:06:10.720 align:middle line:90% No. 02:06:10.720 --> 02:06:11.220 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: No, not that one? 02:06:11.220 --> 02:06:11.720 align:middle line:90% 02:06:11.720 --> 02:06:16.012 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, the other building, where human-- well-- 02:06:16.012 --> 02:06:18.220 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's where human resources actually 02:06:18.220 --> 02:06:19.680 align:middle line:84% is, in the Ziegler building, aren't they? 02:06:19.680 --> 02:06:20.280 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, I don't think so. 02:06:20.280 --> 02:06:22.822 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: On the corner of First drive and Main Street? 02:06:22.822 --> 02:06:25.072 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, but that's not the Ziegler building. 02:06:25.072 --> 02:06:26.740 align:middle line:84% Ziegler building's the next one over. 02:06:26.740 --> 02:06:29.100 align:middle line:90% It was a building-- 02:06:29.100 --> 02:06:30.640 align:middle line:84% God, I'll think of it eventually. 02:06:30.640 --> 02:06:31.280 align:middle line:90% But anyway-- 02:06:31.280 --> 02:06:32.220 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I don't know how you got anything 02:06:32.220 --> 02:06:33.345 align:middle line:90% done with that many people. 02:06:33.345 --> 02:06:35.260 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: [LAUGHS] Well, we did. 02:06:35.260 --> 02:06:39.500 align:middle line:84% But, anyway, we zeroed in on about, 02:06:39.500 --> 02:06:43.580 align:middle line:84% well, at least four candidates that I can remember 02:06:43.580 --> 02:06:45.960 align:middle line:90% and maybe more for interviews. 02:06:45.960 --> 02:06:48.160 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: How long was the span of time, 02:06:48.160 --> 02:06:51.660 align:middle line:84% from beginning to end, from when you organized yourselves? 02:06:51.660 --> 02:06:53.820 align:middle line:84% I mean was it two months, three months, six months? 02:06:53.820 --> 02:06:56.567 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, no, it was, jeez, I don't really remember. 02:06:56.567 --> 02:06:58.900 align:middle line:84% I wouldn't be surprised if it was at least eight months. 02:06:58.900 --> 02:07:00.733 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It was a long stretch, then. 02:07:00.733 --> 02:07:01.460 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:07:01.460 --> 02:07:03.320 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: [AUDIO OUT] pointed 02:07:03.320 --> 02:07:04.980 align:middle line:84% to be a chair of a committee like that? 02:07:04.980 --> 02:07:06.760 align:middle line:84% Did they tell you, well, you need 02:07:06.760 --> 02:07:08.480 align:middle line:84% to get this done in the next three months 02:07:08.480 --> 02:07:09.940 align:middle line:84% or take all the time in the world? 02:07:09.940 --> 02:07:10.700 align:middle line:90% What do they tell you? 02:07:10.700 --> 02:07:12.060 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: They don't say anything about that. 02:07:12.060 --> 02:07:13.185 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: They don't? 02:07:13.185 --> 02:07:15.880 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, what they say is, bring us 02:07:15.880 --> 02:07:19.320 align:middle line:84% three to five candidates that are acceptable to you 02:07:19.320 --> 02:07:20.158 align:middle line:90% and unranked. 02:07:20.158 --> 02:07:21.200 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Unranked. 02:07:21.200 --> 02:07:21.900 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: That's what they want. 02:07:21.900 --> 02:07:23.567 align:middle line:84% They don't want them ranked because they 02:07:23.567 --> 02:07:24.680 align:middle line:90% want to make the choice. 02:07:24.680 --> 02:07:25.140 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: The decision. 02:07:25.140 --> 02:07:27.560 align:middle line:84% So you guys had to go through all these resumes 02:07:27.560 --> 02:07:29.360 align:middle line:90% and then interviews. 02:07:29.360 --> 02:07:34.002 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, we interviewed one guy named John Hancock who-- 02:07:34.002 --> 02:07:35.460 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What a lovely name. 02:07:35.460 --> 02:07:37.710 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well he had been dean of engineering 02:07:37.710 --> 02:07:42.320 align:middle line:84% at Purdue and was probably the dean 02:07:42.320 --> 02:07:45.260 align:middle line:84% of engineering deans at the time in the United States. 02:07:45.260 --> 02:07:50.823 align:middle line:84% But he left that job about a year or two before we 02:07:50.823 --> 02:07:51.490 align:middle line:90% interviewed him. 02:07:51.490 --> 02:07:54.160 align:middle line:84% And he went to some electronics-- 02:07:54.160 --> 02:07:55.410 align:middle line:90% he was an electrical engineer. 02:07:55.410 --> 02:07:58.650 align:middle line:84% He became an executive in some electronics firm in the Midwest, 02:07:58.650 --> 02:08:00.068 align:middle line:90% Kansas or something like that. 02:08:00.068 --> 02:08:02.110 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Gave up academia altogether, huh? 02:08:02.110 --> 02:08:03.910 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, he, I think, had 02:08:03.910 --> 02:08:05.370 align:middle line:84% hoped to become president of Purdue 02:08:05.370 --> 02:08:06.870 align:middle line:84% when they were looking for somebody. 02:08:06.870 --> 02:08:07.770 align:middle line:90% And he didn't get it. 02:08:07.770 --> 02:08:09.350 align:middle line:90% And so he moved on. 02:08:09.350 --> 02:08:12.750 align:middle line:84% But he was very well known in engineering circles. 02:08:12.750 --> 02:08:22.430 align:middle line:84% We interviewed a guy named Dale Compton, who, at the time, 02:08:22.430 --> 02:08:25.430 align:middle line:84% had just stepped down as vice president of research 02:08:25.430 --> 02:08:28.670 align:middle line:84% for Ford Motor Company, was a physicist who 02:08:28.670 --> 02:08:29.890 align:middle line:90% was quite well known. 02:08:29.890 --> 02:08:33.030 align:middle line:84% They were both members of the National Academy of Engineering, 02:08:33.030 --> 02:08:35.190 align:middle line:90% very prominent guys. 02:08:35.190 --> 02:08:40.750 align:middle line:84% We interviewed-- God, I can't think 02:08:40.750 --> 02:08:45.700 align:middle line:84% of her name but a very prominent woman material scientist 02:08:45.700 --> 02:08:46.840 align:middle line:90% from MIT. 02:08:46.840 --> 02:08:47.820 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Really? 02:08:47.820 --> 02:08:48.720 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, God, I-- 02:08:48.720 --> 02:08:50.800 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I didn't know a woman was ever even considered. 02:08:50.800 --> 02:08:51.633 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: She was. 02:08:51.633 --> 02:08:52.580 align:middle line:90% She was interviewed. 02:08:52.580 --> 02:08:55.460 align:middle line:84% These are all off campus interviews, OK? 02:08:55.460 --> 02:08:58.060 align:middle line:84% I may think of her name eventually. 02:08:58.060 --> 02:09:00.980 align:middle line:90% And of course, Pat Crecine. 02:09:00.980 --> 02:09:04.180 align:middle line:84% And I think there was one other one whose name escapes me 02:09:04.180 --> 02:09:04.920 align:middle line:90% right now. 02:09:04.920 --> 02:09:09.060 align:middle line:90% 02:09:09.060 --> 02:09:15.580 align:middle line:84% And the committee wanted John Hancock. 02:09:15.580 --> 02:09:20.700 align:middle line:84% And the three names we gave him were John Hancock, Dale Compton, 02:09:20.700 --> 02:09:23.820 align:middle line:90% and Pat Crecine. 02:09:23.820 --> 02:09:26.420 align:middle line:84% The woman, when we interviewed, made 02:09:26.420 --> 02:09:30.180 align:middle line:84% it clear that she wanted the job so that she could have 02:09:30.180 --> 02:09:35.100 align:middle line:84% a platform nationally to advocate women in science 02:09:35.100 --> 02:09:36.500 align:middle line:90% and engineering. 02:09:36.500 --> 02:09:40.760 align:middle line:84% And she had, if I'm not mistaken, 02:09:40.760 --> 02:09:42.660 align:middle line:84% she had no administrative experience. 02:09:42.660 --> 02:09:45.400 align:middle line:90% She was a very prominent person. 02:09:45.400 --> 02:09:47.440 align:middle line:90% And she still is. 02:09:47.440 --> 02:09:49.180 align:middle line:84% I may think of her name before I'm done. 02:09:49.180 --> 02:09:54.640 align:middle line:84% But she was a physicist, material scientist type. 02:09:54.640 --> 02:09:58.640 align:middle line:84% And although they said don't rank them-- 02:09:58.640 --> 02:09:59.820 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: You did. 02:09:59.820 --> 02:10:01.580 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, well it became clear in our discussions. 02:10:01.580 --> 02:10:03.038 align:middle line:84% I mean, we met with the chancellor. 02:10:03.038 --> 02:10:09.000 align:middle line:84% We met with-- the deal was, the big committee that I described 02:10:09.000 --> 02:10:13.060 align:middle line:84% that I chaired was called the presidential search committee. 02:10:13.060 --> 02:10:17.320 align:middle line:84% But the smaller committee of the regents 02:10:17.320 --> 02:10:22.680 align:middle line:84% who were on the committee, plus, well, the chair of the board of 02:10:22.680 --> 02:10:24.320 align:middle line:90% regents-- 02:10:24.320 --> 02:10:27.440 align:middle line:84% God, I can picture her, but I can't think of her name-- 02:10:27.440 --> 02:10:29.400 align:middle line:90% was part of that group. 02:10:29.400 --> 02:10:33.755 align:middle line:84% They were to be the presidential selection committee. 02:10:33.755 --> 02:10:35.380 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: They were the deciders. 02:10:35.380 --> 02:10:36.460 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, well, which is fine. 02:10:36.460 --> 02:10:36.980 align:middle line:90% I mean, it's fine. 02:10:36.980 --> 02:10:38.680 align:middle line:84% I mean, the person's got to report to the chancellor 02:10:38.680 --> 02:10:39.860 align:middle line:90% and to the board of regents. 02:10:39.860 --> 02:10:43.470 align:middle line:84% So it became clear from the discussions, 02:10:43.470 --> 02:10:46.670 align:middle line:84% after we'd interviewed the people, what our priorities 02:10:46.670 --> 02:10:47.873 align:middle line:90% were, our preferences were. 02:10:47.873 --> 02:10:50.290 align:middle line:84% I mean, we didn't have to put that in writing or anything. 02:10:50.290 --> 02:10:52.070 align:middle line:90% But it became clear. 02:10:52.070 --> 02:10:54.750 align:middle line:84% And this was going on-- well, to help 02:10:54.750 --> 02:11:01.910 align:middle line:84% you decide how long it took, I think we started along 02:11:01.910 --> 02:11:07.310 align:middle line:90% about the first of the year. 02:11:07.310 --> 02:11:09.330 align:middle line:84% Pettit died in the fall of '87, right? 02:11:09.330 --> 02:11:10.550 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah. 02:11:10.550 --> 02:11:13.790 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It may have been the end of '87. 02:11:13.790 --> 02:11:16.950 align:middle line:84% It dragged on to the point where, 02:11:16.950 --> 02:11:20.670 align:middle line:84% by the time it got to May, when we were at the end 02:11:20.670 --> 02:11:24.830 align:middle line:84% and we'd come up with these three finalists, 02:11:24.830 --> 02:11:29.150 align:middle line:84% the new chairman of the board of regent chair, 02:11:29.150 --> 02:11:35.930 align:middle line:84% the board of regents, was announced and got involved-- 02:11:35.930 --> 02:11:38.680 align:middle line:84% OK, the new chair was Jackie Ward. 02:11:38.680 --> 02:11:40.380 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, boy. 02:11:40.380 --> 02:11:45.580 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: She replaced this woman from Ivan Allen. 02:11:45.580 --> 02:11:50.120 align:middle line:84% And Jackie Ward came in like a storm and took over. 02:11:50.120 --> 02:11:53.760 align:middle line:84% And she really liked Crecine because he was in computers. 02:11:53.760 --> 02:11:58.115 align:middle line:84% He was pushing computers and computerization, and software, 02:11:58.115 --> 02:11:59.240 align:middle line:90% and all this sort of thing. 02:11:59.240 --> 02:12:01.440 align:middle line:84% And she's in the software training business. 02:12:01.440 --> 02:12:04.620 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: OK, so Ross Perot and Steve Jobs 02:12:04.620 --> 02:12:05.700 align:middle line:90% would've been her heroes. 02:12:05.700 --> 02:12:07.240 align:middle line:90% And he actually knew them. 02:12:07.240 --> 02:12:08.700 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep, absolutely. 02:12:08.700 --> 02:12:11.040 align:middle line:90% And so that's who she wanted. 02:12:11.040 --> 02:12:12.515 align:middle line:90% And she found reasons. 02:12:12.515 --> 02:12:14.140 align:middle line:84% I mean, this is going to be a long time 02:12:14.140 --> 02:12:16.220 align:middle line:90% before anybody else sees this. 02:12:16.220 --> 02:12:20.620 align:middle line:84% She found reasons why John Hancock wasn't acceptable 02:12:20.620 --> 02:12:23.940 align:middle line:84% and why Dale Compton wasn't acceptable. 02:12:23.940 --> 02:12:25.572 align:middle line:90% And that left Pat Crecine. 02:12:25.572 --> 02:12:27.280 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So she was on a campaign. 02:12:27.280 --> 02:12:28.405 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, absolutely. 02:12:28.405 --> 02:12:32.572 align:middle line:84% I mean, it really irritated me at the time and has since. 02:12:32.572 --> 02:12:34.780 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, it took it right away from you. 02:12:34.780 --> 02:12:37.550 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I mean, other than interviewing him, 02:12:37.550 --> 02:12:38.710 align:middle line:90% I didn't know John Hancock. 02:12:38.710 --> 02:12:39.690 align:middle line:90% I knew of him. 02:12:39.690 --> 02:12:42.250 align:middle line:84% And he was really a first-class individual. 02:12:42.250 --> 02:12:45.210 align:middle line:90% But I've known Dale Compton. 02:12:45.210 --> 02:12:51.730 align:middle line:84% Oh, I know another, God, another person we interviewed, 02:12:51.730 --> 02:12:55.050 align:middle line:84% very, very prominent guy who is now-- 02:12:55.050 --> 02:12:56.350 align:middle line:90% he may be emeritus now. 02:12:56.350 --> 02:13:00.250 align:middle line:84% But he was involved in government a lot. 02:13:00.250 --> 02:13:04.170 align:middle line:90% 02:13:04.170 --> 02:13:06.570 align:middle line:84% Lewis Branscomb, I think, who had 02:13:06.570 --> 02:13:10.850 align:middle line:84% been head of National Bureau of Standards, been quite involved 02:13:10.850 --> 02:13:12.730 align:middle line:90% in the industry. 02:13:12.730 --> 02:13:15.110 align:middle line:84% We couldn't even talk him in-- we interviewed him. 02:13:15.110 --> 02:13:16.510 align:middle line:84% We went to Washington and interviewed him. 02:13:16.510 --> 02:13:18.170 align:middle line:84% We couldn't even talk him into becoming a-- 02:13:18.170 --> 02:13:18.730 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: A candidate. 02:13:18.730 --> 02:13:19.890 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --a candidate, in spite of the fact 02:13:19.890 --> 02:13:22.690 align:middle line:84% he actually had some tenuous connections with Georgia Tech 02:13:22.690 --> 02:13:24.110 align:middle line:90% through relatives or something. 02:13:24.110 --> 02:13:24.410 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: But he didn't. 02:13:24.410 --> 02:13:25.410 align:middle line:90% He never came on campus. 02:13:25.410 --> 02:13:28.330 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: He spent, well, at that time and the rest 02:13:28.330 --> 02:13:33.970 align:middle line:84% of his career, at Harvard in the Kennedy School of politics 02:13:33.970 --> 02:13:35.670 align:middle line:90% or government. 02:13:35.670 --> 02:13:38.430 align:middle line:84% And he had been in the government, fairly good position 02:13:38.430 --> 02:13:42.110 align:middle line:90% in the Kennedy Administration. 02:13:42.110 --> 02:13:45.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Did Crecine interview well? 02:13:45.790 --> 02:13:47.230 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Reasonably well, yeah. 02:13:47.230 --> 02:13:48.510 align:middle line:90% Reasonably well. 02:13:48.510 --> 02:13:52.530 align:middle line:84% It was kind of interesting, Not as well as the others. 02:13:52.530 --> 02:13:55.022 align:middle line:84% In fact, the committee, at least the faculty members 02:13:55.022 --> 02:13:57.230 align:middle line:84% of the committee, weren't too hot on even putting him 02:13:57.230 --> 02:13:57.730 align:middle line:90% on the list. 02:13:57.730 --> 02:13:58.550 align:middle line:84% But we had to come up with three. 02:13:58.550 --> 02:13:59.430 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You had to have three. 02:13:59.430 --> 02:14:01.510 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And the other, we just 02:14:01.510 --> 02:14:04.190 align:middle line:84% didn't have others that we could put up there. 02:14:04.190 --> 02:14:07.550 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: How ironic that it should end up the way it did. 02:14:07.550 --> 02:14:11.750 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, then when the regents were courting 02:14:11.750 --> 02:14:17.510 align:middle line:84% him, Crecine, they wanted to bring him and his wife to campus 02:14:17.510 --> 02:14:18.450 align:middle line:90% to see the campus. 02:14:18.450 --> 02:14:21.170 align:middle line:84% But they didn't want anybody to know it was there. 02:14:21.170 --> 02:14:27.630 align:middle line:84% So I had the chore, part of the time, taking him around. 02:14:27.630 --> 02:14:32.220 align:middle line:90% And Ron Shafer from-- 02:14:32.220 --> 02:14:35.220 align:middle line:84% yeah, Ron Shafer from electrical engineering was on the committee 02:14:35.220 --> 02:14:36.820 align:middle line:90% as well. 02:14:36.820 --> 02:14:40.500 align:middle line:84% And so he and I and our wives were 02:14:40.500 --> 02:14:43.780 align:middle line:84% responsible for different parts of taking him around. 02:14:43.780 --> 02:14:47.140 align:middle line:90% And I forget who, somebody-- 02:14:47.140 --> 02:14:49.593 align:middle line:90% 02:14:49.593 --> 02:14:50.760 align:middle line:90% I don't remember who it was. 02:14:50.760 --> 02:14:53.340 align:middle line:84% But somebody was responsible for-- 02:14:53.340 --> 02:14:54.193 align:middle line:90% oh, I know. 02:14:54.193 --> 02:14:55.360 align:middle line:90% OK, can't think of his name. 02:14:55.360 --> 02:14:58.757 align:middle line:90% He was head of GTRI at the time. 02:14:58.757 --> 02:14:59.840 align:middle line:90% I can't think of his name. 02:14:59.840 --> 02:15:03.180 align:middle line:90% He was predecessor to Truly. 02:15:03.180 --> 02:15:05.620 align:middle line:84% Picked Crecine up at the airport and took him 02:15:05.620 --> 02:15:08.420 align:middle line:84% to Westminster School to visit there 02:15:08.420 --> 02:15:11.220 align:middle line:84% because he wanted to get his kids into Westminster. 02:15:11.220 --> 02:15:14.255 align:middle line:84% And then Mary and I picked him up at Westminster, 02:15:14.255 --> 02:15:16.380 align:middle line:84% I guess, picked him and his wife up at Westminster, 02:15:16.380 --> 02:15:18.860 align:middle line:84% and brought him down to see the president's house. 02:15:18.860 --> 02:15:21.740 align:middle line:84% And we had arranged for a policeman, a Georgia Tech 02:15:21.740 --> 02:15:24.780 align:middle line:84% policeman to show up at the president's house to let us in. 02:15:24.780 --> 02:15:26.820 align:middle line:90% I will never forget it. 02:15:26.820 --> 02:15:28.820 align:middle line:90% We went in. 02:15:28.820 --> 02:15:31.290 align:middle line:90% And he's looking around. 02:15:31.290 --> 02:15:33.410 align:middle line:90% And she's looking around. 02:15:33.410 --> 02:15:37.890 align:middle line:84% And Mary says to me, she doesn't want to come here. 02:15:37.890 --> 02:15:40.350 align:middle line:84% I mean, they'd only seen each other for half an hour 02:15:40.350 --> 02:15:41.350 align:middle line:90% in the car or something. 02:15:41.350 --> 02:15:42.590 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's called women's intuition. 02:15:42.590 --> 02:15:43.548 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Absolutely. 02:15:43.548 --> 02:15:46.030 align:middle line:84% And I said, how do you know that? 02:15:46.030 --> 02:15:47.228 align:middle line:90% Well, I mean, she was right. 02:15:47.228 --> 02:15:48.270 align:middle line:90% She was absolutely right. 02:15:48.270 --> 02:15:49.250 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: She did not want to come, yeah. 02:15:49.250 --> 02:15:50.208 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: She didn't. 02:15:50.208 --> 02:15:55.010 align:middle line:84% And so then we took them out to dinner that evening, I think. 02:15:55.010 --> 02:15:59.313 align:middle line:84% And it was pretty obvious she was not happy about it. 02:15:59.313 --> 02:16:01.230 align:middle line:84% She was basically, you do what you want to do. 02:16:01.230 --> 02:16:01.990 align:middle line:90% Well, she came. 02:16:01.990 --> 02:16:04.712 align:middle line:84% And not too long after she was here, she divorced him. 02:16:04.712 --> 02:16:06.170 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And a lot of people 02:16:06.170 --> 02:16:09.970 align:middle line:84% think that was her just cooperating long enough for him 02:16:09.970 --> 02:16:11.110 align:middle line:90% to look respectable. 02:16:11.110 --> 02:16:11.870 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, I think so. 02:16:11.870 --> 02:16:13.745 align:middle line:84% I mean, like I say, when doing the interview, 02:16:13.745 --> 02:16:15.850 align:middle line:84% Mary says she doesn't want to come. 02:16:15.850 --> 02:16:17.350 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's so interesting. 02:16:17.350 --> 02:16:20.050 align:middle line:84% Oh, yeah, a woman would know that, definitely. 02:16:20.050 --> 02:16:23.230 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, so, anyway, he became president. 02:16:23.230 --> 02:16:25.530 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, he certainly did. 02:16:25.530 --> 02:16:28.830 align:middle line:90% And it didn't take very long. 02:16:28.830 --> 02:16:32.070 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: He did some innovative things, some of which 02:16:32.070 --> 02:16:33.090 align:middle line:90% were probably good. 02:16:33.090 --> 02:16:35.580 align:middle line:84% But he was kind of a disaster as president. 02:16:35.580 --> 02:16:36.830 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Controversial. 02:16:36.830 --> 02:16:39.150 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, absolutely. 02:16:39.150 --> 02:16:43.309 align:middle line:84% The chancellor-- oh, God, what was the chancellor's name 02:16:43.309 --> 02:16:43.872 align:middle line:90% at the time? 02:16:43.872 --> 02:16:44.830 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Propst. 02:16:44.830 --> 02:16:45.570 align:middle line:90% Propst. 02:16:45.570 --> 02:16:46.629 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Propst, yeah, Propst. 02:16:46.629 --> 02:16:48.462 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I don't know how you say it. 02:16:48.462 --> 02:16:52.670 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Propst, Dean Propst, he said to me, you work with him 02:16:52.670 --> 02:16:55.290 align:middle line:84% and help him to integrate and get to know people. 02:16:55.290 --> 02:16:57.030 align:middle line:90% And so I took him seriously. 02:16:57.030 --> 02:16:59.830 align:middle line:84% So I met with him a couple of times. 02:16:59.830 --> 02:17:03.209 align:middle line:84% And it became pretty clear to me that he was a terrible speaker. 02:17:03.209 --> 02:17:07.150 align:middle line:84% I mean, he was just an atrocious speaker because I thought, 02:17:07.150 --> 02:17:09.650 align:middle line:84% if Propst telling me to help him, I got to say something. 02:17:09.650 --> 02:17:10.610 align:middle line:90% So I met with him. 02:17:10.610 --> 02:17:11.990 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You try to coach him, did you? 02:17:11.990 --> 02:17:14.969 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, I said-- he said something about, how am I doing? 02:17:14.969 --> 02:17:16.568 align:middle line:84% I said, well, to be honest with you, 02:17:16.568 --> 02:17:18.110 align:middle line:84% you really ought to look into getting 02:17:18.110 --> 02:17:21.110 align:middle line:90% some help on speaking because-- 02:17:21.110 --> 02:17:23.358 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, my God, how did he take that one? 02:17:23.358 --> 02:17:25.650 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I mean, he didn't hit me or anything. 02:17:25.650 --> 02:17:27.639 align:middle line:84% But it was the last meeting we ever had. 02:17:27.639 --> 02:17:28.340 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 02:17:28.340 --> 02:17:29.799 align:middle line:90% Or at least for quite a while. 02:17:29.799 --> 02:17:31.480 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That was so cutting off your nose. 02:17:31.480 --> 02:17:32.320 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: So, I mean-- 02:17:32.320 --> 02:17:33.139 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: No, he didn't want 02:17:33.139 --> 02:17:34.639 align:middle line:84% to deal with any of the realities of anything. 02:17:34.639 --> 02:17:36.020 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, God, he was terrible speaker. 02:17:36.020 --> 02:17:37.379 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's why he quickly brought people 02:17:37.379 --> 02:17:38.719 align:middle line:90% in from Carnegie Mellon. 02:17:38.719 --> 02:17:40.260 align:middle line:90% He surrounded himself with his-- 02:17:40.260 --> 02:17:41.260 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, and he-- 02:17:41.260 --> 02:17:42.552 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: --strange folk. 02:17:42.552 --> 02:17:44.860 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 02:17:44.860 --> 02:17:48.020 align:middle line:84% Well, later, when he was having so much difficulty-- 02:17:48.020 --> 02:17:51.080 align:middle line:84% and, in fact, Jackie Ward eventually kind of turned-- 02:17:51.080 --> 02:17:51.980 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Realized the error of her ways. 02:17:51.980 --> 02:17:54.438 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I don't know about the error of her ways. 02:17:54.438 --> 02:17:56.760 align:middle line:84% But she wasn't happy with him as president. 02:17:56.760 --> 02:18:02.403 align:middle line:84% And Propst contacted me and told me about the difficulties 02:18:02.403 --> 02:18:03.320 align:middle line:90% that they were having. 02:18:03.320 --> 02:18:06.100 align:middle line:84% And there was no surprise to me, although he knew a whole lot 02:18:06.100 --> 02:18:07.280 align:middle line:90% more about it than I did. 02:18:07.280 --> 02:18:10.980 align:middle line:84% And he said, we've kind of told him 02:18:10.980 --> 02:18:14.799 align:middle line:84% he might not get reappointed if things don't change. 02:18:14.799 --> 02:18:19.020 align:middle line:84% He said, now, he's willing to accept some help. 02:18:19.020 --> 02:18:23.100 align:middle line:84% So he said, how about you chairing a committee 02:18:23.100 --> 02:18:27.049 align:middle line:84% to try to see how we can salvage things? 02:18:27.049 --> 02:18:28.969 align:middle line:90% And I said, OK. 02:18:28.969 --> 02:18:34.490 align:middle line:90% So he appointed Dick Truly. 02:18:34.490 --> 02:18:35.958 align:middle line:84% Robert Hawkins, who was dean of-- 02:18:35.958 --> 02:18:37.250 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: I remember him. 02:18:37.250 --> 02:18:40.370 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --something at that time. 02:18:40.370 --> 02:18:42.250 align:middle line:90% John Aderhold. 02:18:42.250 --> 02:18:44.209 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: [LAUGHS] And you guys 02:18:44.209 --> 02:18:45.770 align:middle line:90% were going to give him a cure? 02:18:45.770 --> 02:18:46.650 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:18:46.650 --> 02:18:47.309 align:middle line:90% And who else? 02:18:47.309 --> 02:18:48.250 align:middle line:90% It was somebody else. 02:18:48.250 --> 02:18:51.049 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You would've needed a band of holy angels. 02:18:51.049 --> 02:18:52.091 align:middle line:90% You know that, don't you? 02:18:52.091 --> 02:18:54.770 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: A vice chancellor, whose name 02:18:54.770 --> 02:18:59.129 align:middle line:84% escapes me, but he was Propst's number one man. 02:18:59.129 --> 02:19:01.230 align:middle line:84% And I think there was another alum. 02:19:01.230 --> 02:19:04.990 align:middle line:90% But I'm not sure who. 02:19:04.990 --> 02:19:07.490 align:middle line:84% Actually, I think it's the same guy 02:19:07.490 --> 02:19:10.730 align:middle line:84% whose name I couldn't think of earlier that owned the building. 02:19:10.730 --> 02:19:13.110 align:middle line:90% But, anyway, so we said, OK. 02:19:13.110 --> 02:19:15.090 align:middle line:90% So we met. 02:19:15.090 --> 02:19:17.790 align:middle line:84% And we decided what we were going to do. 02:19:17.790 --> 02:19:20.690 align:middle line:84% The first thing we needed to do is 02:19:20.690 --> 02:19:24.750 align:middle line:84% get a copy of the organizational chart of the institute 02:19:24.750 --> 02:19:26.910 align:middle line:90% that Crecine had. 02:19:26.910 --> 02:19:29.030 align:middle line:90% They couldn't come up with one. 02:19:29.030 --> 02:19:30.410 align:middle line:90% They finally did eventually. 02:19:30.410 --> 02:19:33.370 align:middle line:84% But it was the most contorted damn organization chart. 02:19:33.370 --> 02:19:34.870 align:middle line:84% And then we said, OK, what we need 02:19:34.870 --> 02:19:39.750 align:middle line:84% to do is we need to interview all his direct reports. 02:19:39.750 --> 02:19:43.190 align:middle line:84% And then we'll interview him to see what needs to be done. 02:19:43.190 --> 02:19:45.110 align:middle line:90% We interviewed a lot of people. 02:19:45.110 --> 02:19:49.350 align:middle line:84% We did it one at a time over in the conference room 02:19:49.350 --> 02:19:51.210 align:middle line:84% of the old college of management, 02:19:51.210 --> 02:19:52.890 align:middle line:90% which is now where ISYE is. 02:19:52.890 --> 02:19:54.950 align:middle line:90% There's a conference room there. 02:19:54.950 --> 02:19:56.950 align:middle line:84% And, I mean, we would go away just 02:19:56.950 --> 02:20:02.870 align:middle line:84% shaking our head because we interviewed one person who was-- 02:20:02.870 --> 02:20:03.670 align:middle line:90% I don't remember. 02:20:03.670 --> 02:20:05.503 align:middle line:84% It's good that I don't remember their names, 02:20:05.503 --> 02:20:07.950 align:middle line:84% but one person who maintained that he 02:20:07.950 --> 02:20:12.670 align:middle line:84% was hired for a particular task in a particular area 02:20:12.670 --> 02:20:15.630 align:middle line:90% of responsibility. 02:20:15.630 --> 02:20:18.210 align:middle line:84% And not too long after he was hired, 02:20:18.210 --> 02:20:22.220 align:middle line:84% he went to a social function and met another person. 02:20:22.220 --> 02:20:24.320 align:middle line:84% And when they got talking to each other, 02:20:24.320 --> 02:20:26.760 align:middle line:84% they found out they both had the same responsibility. 02:20:26.760 --> 02:20:30.420 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: [LAUGHS] So there was tag team, huh? 02:20:30.420 --> 02:20:32.820 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, it turned out that the other person who 02:20:32.820 --> 02:20:35.302 align:middle line:84% had been there longer wasn't doing a good job. 02:20:35.302 --> 02:20:37.260 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So he just hired somebody else. 02:20:37.260 --> 02:20:38.300 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So he just hired somebody else 02:20:38.300 --> 02:20:39.380 align:middle line:90% and didn't tell that person. 02:20:39.380 --> 02:20:40.500 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Didn't even tell him. 02:20:40.500 --> 02:20:42.980 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But the really funny part about before it 02:20:42.980 --> 02:20:46.440 align:middle line:84% was over, when we finally interviewed Crecine, 02:20:46.440 --> 02:20:48.920 align:middle line:84% we interviewed him for, I think, a couple of hours. 02:20:48.920 --> 02:20:51.120 align:middle line:84% We had all kinds of information from previously. 02:20:51.120 --> 02:20:52.900 align:middle line:90% We interviewed him. 02:20:52.900 --> 02:20:56.560 align:middle line:84% And when we were done, he got up and left the room. 02:20:56.560 --> 02:21:00.040 align:middle line:84% And we were just silent, sitting there, just silent. 02:21:00.040 --> 02:21:02.100 align:middle line:84% Didn't know what the hell to say. 02:21:02.100 --> 02:21:05.440 align:middle line:90% Finally, Dick Truly spoke up. 02:21:05.440 --> 02:21:08.440 align:middle line:84% Now, if you're not aware of it, Dick Truly was head of NASA. 02:21:08.440 --> 02:21:09.020 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, I know him. 02:21:09.020 --> 02:21:10.353 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: He was an astronaut. 02:21:10.353 --> 02:21:11.980 align:middle line:90% He'd flown in space. 02:21:11.980 --> 02:21:14.900 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: A man of this world and another 02:21:14.900 --> 02:21:18.420 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Dick Truly finally broke the silence and said, 02:21:18.420 --> 02:21:21.710 align:middle line:84% this is the most difficult problem I have ever dealt with. 02:21:21.710 --> 02:21:22.535 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 02:21:22.535 --> 02:21:23.910 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: To put it mildly. 02:21:23.910 --> 02:21:27.490 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And I said, Good God, Dick, most people 02:21:27.490 --> 02:21:30.910 align:middle line:84% say rocket science is the most difficult thing. 02:21:30.910 --> 02:21:31.650 align:middle line:90% You were there. 02:21:31.650 --> 02:21:33.590 align:middle line:84% And you're saying this is the most difficult-- 02:21:33.590 --> 02:21:34.798 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: He was right. 02:21:34.798 --> 02:21:35.570 align:middle line:90% He was right. 02:21:35.570 --> 02:21:36.848 align:middle line:90% It was an unsolvable problem-- 02:21:36.848 --> 02:21:37.890 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was. 02:21:37.890 --> 02:21:39.723 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: --because it was a one side. 02:21:39.723 --> 02:21:42.370 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, we reported to the chancellor as a group. 02:21:42.370 --> 02:21:45.850 align:middle line:84% And of course, there was the vice chancellor 02:21:45.850 --> 02:21:47.850 align:middle line:90% who was on the committee. 02:21:47.850 --> 02:21:50.930 align:middle line:84% And, I mean, they just informed Crecine 02:21:50.930 --> 02:21:52.650 align:middle line:84% that they were not going to reappoint him 02:21:52.650 --> 02:21:54.450 align:middle line:90% when the time came. 02:21:54.450 --> 02:21:56.890 align:middle line:84% And he fought it, went to court and fought it. 02:21:56.890 --> 02:21:58.598 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He really, I don't think, 02:21:58.598 --> 02:22:00.450 align:middle line:90% even recognized it coming. 02:22:00.450 --> 02:22:02.010 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, I don't think he did. 02:22:02.010 --> 02:22:04.730 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And yet, giving the devil his due, everybody 02:22:04.730 --> 02:22:08.050 align:middle line:84% we've talked to that was around during those times and all, 02:22:08.050 --> 02:22:10.510 align:middle line:90% he did have a big picture. 02:22:10.510 --> 02:22:13.890 align:middle line:84% The change making that he took place had certainly affected us 02:22:13.890 --> 02:22:15.550 align:middle line:90% and has affected Georgia Tech. 02:22:15.550 --> 02:22:17.230 align:middle line:90% And it's been good. 02:22:17.230 --> 02:22:19.300 align:middle line:90% But PR wise and-- 02:22:19.300 --> 02:22:21.050 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: As a speaker, he was terrible. 02:22:21.050 --> 02:22:27.430 align:middle line:84% But a fundamental change that resulted from him was the fact 02:22:27.430 --> 02:22:33.150 align:middle line:84% that the regents, at that time, decided to change their policies 02:22:33.150 --> 02:22:36.630 align:middle line:84% such that the president of any of their institutions cannot 02:22:36.630 --> 02:22:38.218 align:middle line:90% have tenure. 02:22:38.218 --> 02:22:40.010 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And this was a good policy. 02:22:40.010 --> 02:22:40.718 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:22:40.718 --> 02:22:42.830 align:middle line:84% I mean, if you came in from the outside, 02:22:42.830 --> 02:22:44.470 align:middle line:90% you could not get tenure. 02:22:44.470 --> 02:22:46.427 align:middle line:84% And if you were a tenured member of the-- 02:22:46.427 --> 02:22:48.010 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Faculty to start with. 02:22:48.010 --> 02:22:49.552 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --faculty itself to start 02:22:49.552 --> 02:22:51.390 align:middle line:84% with, if you accepted the job as president, 02:22:51.390 --> 02:22:52.800 align:middle line:90% you had to give up tenure. 02:22:52.800 --> 02:22:55.050 align:middle line:84% They didn't want to have that hanging over their head. 02:22:55.050 --> 02:22:56.370 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, lesson learned. 02:22:56.370 --> 02:22:56.830 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, absolutely. 02:22:56.830 --> 02:22:58.747 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Because he was very difficult. 02:22:58.747 --> 02:23:03.302 align:middle line:84% I think it's a miracle that the press wasn't worse than it was. 02:23:03.302 --> 02:23:04.010 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:23:04.010 --> 02:23:05.730 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It could've been so much worse. 02:23:05.730 --> 02:23:07.290 align:middle line:90% It could've killed Georgia Tech. 02:23:07.290 --> 02:23:08.053 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:23:08.053 --> 02:23:10.470 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I mean, he burned more bridges and stomped 02:23:10.470 --> 02:23:14.010 align:middle line:84% on more toes and didn't care more than anybody. 02:23:14.010 --> 02:23:16.420 align:middle line:90% And I think he had-- 02:23:16.420 --> 02:23:18.320 align:middle line:84% again, changemakers are higher on. 02:23:18.320 --> 02:23:20.940 align:middle line:84% But even the students, I mean, he 02:23:20.940 --> 02:23:23.180 align:middle line:84% was a bad role model for students. 02:23:23.180 --> 02:23:25.000 align:middle line:84% His own children were out of control. 02:23:25.000 --> 02:23:26.920 align:middle line:90% I mean, they're just so-- 02:23:26.920 --> 02:23:27.753 align:middle line:90% I traveled with him. 02:23:27.753 --> 02:23:28.837 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Is that right? 02:23:28.837 --> 02:23:29.540 align:middle line:90% I can tell you. 02:23:29.540 --> 02:23:30.725 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 02:23:30.725 --> 02:23:32.100 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: There are stories 02:23:32.100 --> 02:23:33.480 align:middle line:90% that are just unbelievable. 02:23:33.480 --> 02:23:37.620 align:middle line:84% But, anyway, somehow or other, Georgia Tech survived that. 02:23:37.620 --> 02:23:38.560 align:middle line:90% He came in. 02:23:38.560 --> 02:23:41.300 align:middle line:84% He was appointed in the end of '88? 02:23:41.300 --> 02:23:42.140 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yes. 02:23:42.140 --> 02:23:46.680 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Inauguration in '89 and gone by '90. 02:23:46.680 --> 02:23:47.757 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: '92? '93? 02:23:47.757 --> 02:23:48.840 align:middle line:90% Something like that, yeah. 02:23:48.840 --> 02:23:51.780 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, so it seemed like a very long 02:23:51.780 --> 02:23:52.368 align:middle line:90% four years. 02:23:52.368 --> 02:23:53.160 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: It was. 02:23:53.160 --> 02:23:53.722 align:middle line:90% Yeah, it was. 02:23:53.722 --> 02:23:55.180 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Four to five years. 02:23:55.180 --> 02:23:59.380 align:middle line:84% And yet it was a relatively short tenure but very difficult 02:23:59.380 --> 02:24:00.900 align:middle line:90% tenure. 02:24:00.900 --> 02:24:03.000 align:middle line:84% And in the midst of all that, of course, 02:24:03.000 --> 02:24:04.900 align:middle line:84% he had the brilliant idea of the Olympics, 02:24:04.900 --> 02:24:06.533 align:middle line:84% of the Olympic village and all that. 02:24:06.533 --> 02:24:07.700 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Was it his idea? 02:24:07.700 --> 02:24:09.320 align:middle line:90% Or was it dropped in his lap? 02:24:09.320 --> 02:24:12.335 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It was a combination of the two. 02:24:12.335 --> 02:24:13.710 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: How can you go wrong? 02:24:13.710 --> 02:24:15.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, well, it was dropped 02:24:15.210 --> 02:24:16.470 align:middle line:90% in his lap in some respects. 02:24:16.470 --> 02:24:17.890 align:middle line:84% But in other respects, I mean, he 02:24:17.890 --> 02:24:23.250 align:middle line:84% did demand that we step above the three-dimensional cardboard 02:24:23.250 --> 02:24:24.710 align:middle line:84% model of what the village was like. 02:24:24.710 --> 02:24:25.550 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, that helped sell it. 02:24:25.550 --> 02:24:26.150 align:middle line:90% Yeah, no doubt. 02:24:26.150 --> 02:24:28.310 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I mean, he sold the technology end of it. 02:24:28.310 --> 02:24:30.310 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But it was also part of his downfall 02:24:30.310 --> 02:24:35.010 align:middle line:84% because, while this committee was functioning, 02:24:35.010 --> 02:24:37.090 align:middle line:84% one of the major criticisms at the time 02:24:37.090 --> 02:24:38.190 align:middle line:90% was the guy wasn't around. 02:24:38.190 --> 02:24:40.750 align:middle line:84% He wasn't paying any attention to the store, what have you. 02:24:40.750 --> 02:24:43.570 align:middle line:84% Well, it turned out he was apparently 02:24:43.570 --> 02:24:46.105 align:middle line:90% designing the natatorium. 02:24:46.105 --> 02:24:48.230 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Micromanaging is what they call it. 02:24:48.230 --> 02:24:49.490 align:middle line:84% If you talk to the people who were actually 02:24:49.490 --> 02:24:50.130 align:middle line:90% supposed to be doing it. 02:24:50.130 --> 02:24:52.380 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, that's what he supposedly was doing. 02:24:52.380 --> 02:24:54.490 align:middle line:84% He spending his time designing the natatorium. 02:24:54.490 --> 02:24:56.510 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And dating a lot, if we want to call it that. 02:24:56.510 --> 02:24:57.010 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Well, that could be. 02:24:57.010 --> 02:24:59.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: His social life was very demanding for him 02:24:59.570 --> 02:25:00.350 align:middle line:90% at that time, too. 02:25:00.350 --> 02:25:01.250 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I don't know anything about that part. 02:25:01.250 --> 02:25:01.950 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Because, of course, 02:25:01.950 --> 02:25:03.490 align:middle line:90% Barbara had divorced him. 02:25:03.490 --> 02:25:06.590 align:middle line:84% And he had the kids and didn't never knew where they were. 02:25:06.590 --> 02:25:08.810 align:middle line:84% And it was just a very controversial time. 02:25:08.810 --> 02:25:10.028 align:middle line:90% How did we survive it? 02:25:10.028 --> 02:25:10.570 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 02:25:10.570 --> 02:25:12.550 align:middle line:90% But somehow, we did. 02:25:12.550 --> 02:25:14.350 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: You remember Marvin Sledd? 02:25:14.350 --> 02:25:15.530 align:middle line:90% Did you know Marvin Sledd? 02:25:15.530 --> 02:25:16.430 align:middle line:84% He was a professor in mathematics-- 02:25:16.430 --> 02:25:17.805 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: The name, I know. 02:25:17.805 --> 02:25:19.390 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --for many, many years. 02:25:19.390 --> 02:25:20.970 align:middle line:90% He died a couple of years ago. 02:25:20.970 --> 02:25:24.090 align:middle line:84% But I took a class from him once. 02:25:24.090 --> 02:25:28.400 align:middle line:84% I wanted to study a particular area, variational calculus. 02:25:28.400 --> 02:25:29.650 align:middle line:90% And he was teaching the class. 02:25:29.650 --> 02:25:31.190 align:middle line:90% So I took a class. 02:25:31.190 --> 02:25:34.870 align:middle line:84% He was an excellent lecturer, really excellent. 02:25:34.870 --> 02:25:39.670 align:middle line:84% He was prone to say that Georgia Tech is like a great horseshoe 02:25:39.670 --> 02:25:40.250 align:middle line:90% crab. 02:25:40.250 --> 02:25:42.870 align:middle line:84% It will go on for hundreds of millions of years 02:25:42.870 --> 02:25:44.170 align:middle line:90% without any change. 02:25:44.170 --> 02:25:45.310 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 02:25:45.310 --> 02:25:47.730 align:middle line:84% And so there's just a lot of inertia in the place. 02:25:47.730 --> 02:25:49.692 align:middle line:90% And we survive. 02:25:49.692 --> 02:25:51.650 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We managed to survive all that. 02:25:51.650 --> 02:25:53.330 align:middle line:84% But it was a very difficult time. 02:25:53.330 --> 02:25:54.370 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It was, very difficult. 02:25:54.370 --> 02:25:55.828 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Very difficult time 02:25:55.828 --> 02:25:59.470 align:middle line:84% with the focus of the Olympics, plus all the controversy 02:25:59.470 --> 02:26:00.950 align:middle line:90% he generated with the-- 02:26:00.950 --> 02:26:04.250 align:middle line:84% I mean, he knew nothing about relating to alums. 02:26:04.250 --> 02:26:06.410 align:middle line:84% He could care less if he ticked off-- 02:26:06.410 --> 02:26:09.900 align:middle line:84% there are some influential people that you don't really 02:26:09.900 --> 02:26:10.900 align:middle line:90% want to make enemies of. 02:26:10.900 --> 02:26:13.260 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Apparently, he ticked off Coca-Cola folks 02:26:13.260 --> 02:26:13.995 align:middle line:90% pretty seriously. 02:26:13.995 --> 02:26:15.620 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Pretty seriously, yeah. 02:26:15.620 --> 02:26:18.890 align:middle line:84% He pretty seriously got every major company in the city 02:26:18.890 --> 02:26:19.640 align:middle line:90% after [INAUDIBLE]. 02:26:19.640 --> 02:26:20.723 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Is that right? 02:26:20.723 --> 02:26:23.620 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, so that made it very, very hard for him 02:26:23.620 --> 02:26:25.360 align:middle line:90% to be successful with anything. 02:26:25.360 --> 02:26:31.140 align:middle line:84% So it was with a great sigh of relief when he wasn't renewed 02:26:31.140 --> 02:26:32.960 align:middle line:84% and that they could start looking. 02:26:32.960 --> 02:26:35.740 align:middle line:84% Did you get to go be on the second committee 02:26:35.740 --> 02:26:36.695 align:middle line:90% looking for president? 02:26:36.695 --> 02:26:37.320 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No. 02:26:37.320 --> 02:26:38.480 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You passed on that one, huh? 02:26:38.480 --> 02:26:39.480 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, right. 02:26:39.480 --> 02:26:40.140 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 02:26:40.140 --> 02:26:41.460 align:middle line:90% 02:26:41.460 --> 02:26:43.260 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, well, what can you say? 02:26:43.260 --> 02:26:44.760 align:middle line:90% Everything happens for a reason. 02:26:44.760 --> 02:26:47.960 align:middle line:84% But in retrospect, at the time, I could not see a value. 02:26:47.960 --> 02:26:51.500 align:middle line:84% But in retrospect, I'm glad that some of the things happened 02:26:51.500 --> 02:26:55.060 align:middle line:84% and that we did have structure change in that, I think, 02:26:55.060 --> 02:26:59.668 align:middle line:84% Georgia Tech is more vibrant in having some of the new schools. 02:26:59.668 --> 02:27:01.460 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, the college of management 02:27:01.460 --> 02:27:03.903 align:middle line:84% was a very difficult bunch of people to deal with. 02:27:03.903 --> 02:27:06.320 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And they gave him more grief than anybody, 02:27:06.320 --> 02:27:07.170 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:27:07.170 --> 02:27:08.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: There was a Professor Green over there 02:27:08.790 --> 02:27:08.970 align:middle line:90% that-- 02:27:08.970 --> 02:27:09.845 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 02:27:09.845 --> 02:27:10.512 align:middle line:90% Yeah, Bob Green. 02:27:10.512 --> 02:27:11.845 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, Bob Green. 02:27:11.845 --> 02:27:14.410 align:middle line:84% We always wondered if he didn't have a contract out on him. 02:27:14.410 --> 02:27:16.193 align:middle line:84% We would've blamed him if he did. 02:27:16.193 --> 02:27:18.110 align:middle line:84% But some of the other things were good things. 02:27:18.110 --> 02:27:20.290 align:middle line:84% The Ivan Allen College certainly was a good thing 02:27:20.290 --> 02:27:21.210 align:middle line:90% to come out of it. 02:27:21.210 --> 02:27:24.130 align:middle line:84% And I think we'll get a lot of stature in the world. 02:27:24.130 --> 02:27:26.550 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, it's taking a while to turn that around. 02:27:26.550 --> 02:27:27.383 align:middle line:90% It's doing well now. 02:27:27.383 --> 02:27:29.450 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: None of these things come easy. 02:27:29.450 --> 02:27:32.550 align:middle line:84% Academia's like the great ship in the water. 02:27:32.550 --> 02:27:33.248 align:middle line:90% It doesn't turn. 02:27:33.248 --> 02:27:34.790 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: The great horseshoe crab. 02:27:34.790 --> 02:27:37.610 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, it doesn't turn on a dime. 02:27:37.610 --> 02:27:40.730 align:middle line:84% But then along came Dr. [INAUDIBLE] and-- 02:27:40.730 --> 02:27:41.418 align:middle line:90% I mean, Dr.-- 02:27:41.418 --> 02:27:42.210 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Clough. 02:27:42.210 --> 02:27:43.168 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Clough. 02:27:43.168 --> 02:27:43.850 align:middle line:90% Dr. Clough. 02:27:43.850 --> 02:27:48.100 align:middle line:84% And I don't suppose, if somebody was drawing up the peacemaker, 02:27:48.100 --> 02:27:49.850 align:middle line:84% they could've found somebody that was more 02:27:49.850 --> 02:27:52.530 align:middle line:84% suited to being a peacemaker in that he certainly 02:27:52.530 --> 02:27:53.302 align:middle line:90% could speak well. 02:27:53.302 --> 02:27:54.010 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:27:54.010 --> 02:27:55.330 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Looked the part. 02:27:55.330 --> 02:27:56.288 align:middle line:90% That was another thing. 02:27:56.288 --> 02:27:58.890 align:middle line:84% I used to come back from presentations with [INAUDIBLE] 02:27:58.890 --> 02:28:03.250 align:middle line:84% to take his resume out and look at it because what was on paper 02:28:03.250 --> 02:28:05.600 align:middle line:84% didn't match what I had just seen. 02:28:05.600 --> 02:28:08.240 align:middle line:84% He didn't ever wear his clothes right. 02:28:08.240 --> 02:28:09.220 align:middle line:90% He never spoke right. 02:28:09.220 --> 02:28:12.760 align:middle line:84% I mean, he had a very difficult time in the public eye, 02:28:12.760 --> 02:28:15.440 align:middle line:84% whereas Dr. Clough just the complete opposite. 02:28:15.440 --> 02:28:18.120 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: He's a very good spokesperson, yeah, very good. 02:28:18.120 --> 02:28:24.640 align:middle line:84% There was a professor in management, Levy. 02:28:24.640 --> 02:28:28.320 align:middle line:84% What the heck was his first name? 02:28:28.320 --> 02:28:32.000 align:middle line:84% Anyway, Levy, I forget his first name. 02:28:32.000 --> 02:28:35.560 align:middle line:84% Turns out, he was not on the search committee. 02:28:35.560 --> 02:28:39.320 align:middle line:84% I didn't know him during the search. 02:28:39.320 --> 02:28:41.120 align:middle line:90% Actually, I had met him. 02:28:41.120 --> 02:28:44.120 align:middle line:84% I had some earlier dealings with him 02:28:44.120 --> 02:28:46.380 align:middle line:84% through the AAUP when I was involved in that. 02:28:46.380 --> 02:28:52.440 align:middle line:84% But he and Crecine were graduate students 02:28:52.440 --> 02:28:54.775 align:middle line:84% under the same professor at Carnegie Mellon. 02:28:54.775 --> 02:28:55.900 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, really? 02:28:55.900 --> 02:28:57.880 align:middle line:84% So he knew him from way back when. 02:28:57.880 --> 02:29:03.180 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Levy was ahead of Crecine But he knew him. 02:29:03.180 --> 02:29:05.280 align:middle line:90% And I swear to God. 02:29:05.280 --> 02:29:08.520 align:middle line:84% Ever since the time Crecine became president, 02:29:08.520 --> 02:29:11.200 align:middle line:84% any time I see Levy, which, fortunately, is not very often-- 02:29:11.200 --> 02:29:13.340 align:middle line:90% Ferd Levy, Ferd Levy. 02:29:13.340 --> 02:29:14.420 align:middle line:90% It's not very often. 02:29:14.420 --> 02:29:18.140 align:middle line:84% He says to me, Ward, if you had asked me, 02:29:18.140 --> 02:29:19.680 align:middle line:90% this never would've happened. 02:29:19.680 --> 02:29:20.340 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 02:29:20.340 --> 02:29:22.300 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I could've told you, yeah. 02:29:22.300 --> 02:29:25.540 align:middle line:84% It's funny about the hindsight of all these things, huh? 02:29:25.540 --> 02:29:28.480 align:middle line:84% So did he affect your job at all? 02:29:28.480 --> 02:29:29.860 align:middle line:84% Did he interfere with you at all? 02:29:29.860 --> 02:29:30.860 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: [INAUDIBLE]? 02:29:30.860 --> 02:29:32.560 align:middle line:90% No, I was too small a fry. 02:29:32.560 --> 02:29:33.360 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Just left you alone? 02:29:33.360 --> 02:29:34.527 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Too small a fry. 02:29:34.527 --> 02:29:36.260 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, so that didn't 02:29:36.260 --> 02:29:38.300 align:middle line:84% matter, other than ignoring your advice on how 02:29:38.300 --> 02:29:39.980 align:middle line:90% to present a program. 02:29:39.980 --> 02:29:43.180 align:middle line:84% OK, well, yeah, he pretty much ignored everybody's advice 02:29:43.180 --> 02:29:45.820 align:middle line:90% on that in his own separate way. 02:29:45.820 --> 02:29:49.980 align:middle line:84% Once Dr. Clough came into the scene, 02:29:49.980 --> 02:29:53.380 align:middle line:84% what changed in mechanical engineering? 02:29:53.380 --> 02:29:56.480 align:middle line:84% Or what changes did you see in the institution? 02:29:56.480 --> 02:30:00.300 align:middle line:90% 02:30:00.300 --> 02:30:02.233 align:middle line:90% From your perspective. 02:30:02.233 --> 02:30:04.150 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it was a big sigh of relief. 02:30:04.150 --> 02:30:06.023 align:middle line:90% It's over. 02:30:06.023 --> 02:30:07.690 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You can stop hurrying up 02:30:07.690 --> 02:30:09.230 align:middle line:84% to get the headlines every morning. 02:30:09.230 --> 02:30:11.930 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And yeah, obviously, he's 02:30:11.930 --> 02:30:17.210 align:middle line:84% a very personable guy, very good at interacting with people, 02:30:17.210 --> 02:30:22.050 align:middle line:84% well liked by the alums and by students, as far as I know, 02:30:22.050 --> 02:30:23.808 align:middle line:90% by faculty. 02:30:23.808 --> 02:30:25.850 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He was just the right peacemaker. 02:30:25.850 --> 02:30:28.950 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And because of his background, 02:30:28.950 --> 02:30:31.410 align:middle line:84% I assume, very good at dealing with the politicians 02:30:31.410 --> 02:30:34.090 align:middle line:84% and the regents and all that sort of thing. 02:30:34.090 --> 02:30:36.510 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We've come into a period of quiet, yeah. 02:30:36.510 --> 02:30:38.290 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, quiet, but also-- 02:30:38.290 --> 02:30:39.332 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Progress. 02:30:39.332 --> 02:30:41.410 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Positive, just very positive. 02:30:41.410 --> 02:30:45.730 align:middle line:84% And progress, yeah And it's grown a lot, obviously, 02:30:45.730 --> 02:30:47.170 align:middle line:90% since then and doing well. 02:30:47.170 --> 02:30:50.730 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He's proved that you can have change and mandate 02:30:50.730 --> 02:30:53.182 align:middle line:84% things without being controversial about it. 02:30:53.182 --> 02:30:53.890 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:30:53.890 --> 02:30:57.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We can retain students without jamming it 02:30:57.210 --> 02:30:58.430 align:middle line:90% down somebody's throat. 02:30:58.430 --> 02:31:00.560 align:middle line:90% We can make improvements. 02:31:00.560 --> 02:31:03.840 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, one thing that he did, which was kind of funny. 02:31:03.840 --> 02:31:06.540 align:middle line:84% And I'm not sure people understand it, 02:31:06.540 --> 02:31:08.800 align:middle line:90% many understand it to this day. 02:31:08.800 --> 02:31:12.160 align:middle line:84% There was a lot of agitation on the part of some faculty 02:31:12.160 --> 02:31:19.160 align:middle line:84% to change the titles of unit heads from director to chair. 02:31:19.160 --> 02:31:21.620 align:middle line:84% And that was a little bit controversial. 02:31:21.620 --> 02:31:23.340 align:middle line:84% A lot of faculty felt strongly about it, 02:31:23.340 --> 02:31:25.440 align:middle line:84% that they shouldn't have a director as head 02:31:25.440 --> 02:31:27.060 align:middle line:90% of an academic unit. 02:31:27.060 --> 02:31:27.420 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It should be chair. 02:31:27.420 --> 02:31:28.380 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: It should be a chair. 02:31:28.380 --> 02:31:29.963 align:middle line:84% Of course, they had a different vision 02:31:29.963 --> 02:31:34.780 align:middle line:84% in their mind of what a chair was than Clough did. 02:31:34.780 --> 02:31:37.560 align:middle line:84% So finally, I didn't go on very long. 02:31:37.560 --> 02:31:39.320 align:middle line:90% Clough sent out a memo. 02:31:39.320 --> 02:31:41.400 align:middle line:90% And I still have a copy of it. 02:31:41.400 --> 02:31:44.840 align:middle line:84% Effective today, all the academic unit heads 02:31:44.840 --> 02:31:48.480 align:middle line:84% will be called chairs and not directors. 02:31:48.480 --> 02:31:49.820 align:middle line:90% It was a very short memo. 02:31:49.820 --> 02:31:51.340 align:middle line:84% It's a little longer than I'm saying 02:31:51.340 --> 02:31:53.080 align:middle line:90% but not a whole lot longer. 02:31:53.080 --> 02:31:55.480 align:middle line:84% He said, this change of title shall 02:31:55.480 --> 02:31:58.440 align:middle line:84% have no effect on their duties and responsibilities. 02:31:58.440 --> 02:31:59.655 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 02:31:59.655 --> 02:32:01.780 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Give them what they asked for, huh? 02:32:01.780 --> 02:32:02.680 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: You want a different name? 02:32:02.680 --> 02:32:03.120 align:middle line:90% We'll give you a different name. 02:32:03.120 --> 02:32:04.120 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We'll give you a different name. 02:32:04.120 --> 02:32:06.245 align:middle line:84% We aren't going to give you any more money for that 02:32:06.245 --> 02:32:07.460 align:middle line:90% or change your duties. 02:32:07.460 --> 02:32:09.320 align:middle line:84% So you went from director to chair. 02:32:09.320 --> 02:32:10.100 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, that was it. 02:32:10.100 --> 02:32:12.060 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You were one of the ones that got it, yeah. 02:32:12.060 --> 02:32:14.018 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And of course, a lot of the faculty 02:32:14.018 --> 02:32:15.200 align:middle line:90% felt, oh, it's great. 02:32:15.200 --> 02:32:16.560 align:middle line:90% We've got chairs now. 02:32:16.560 --> 02:32:17.720 align:middle line:90% We don't have directors. 02:32:17.720 --> 02:32:19.660 align:middle line:84% But, in fact, the duties and responsibilities 02:32:19.660 --> 02:32:19.940 align:middle line:90% hadn't changed at all. 02:32:19.940 --> 02:32:21.160 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It didn't make any difference at all. 02:32:21.160 --> 02:32:22.960 align:middle line:84% But again, give them what they ask for. 02:32:22.960 --> 02:32:24.780 align:middle line:84% You relent the little things, and people 02:32:24.780 --> 02:32:27.500 align:middle line:90% will embrace the bigger things. 02:32:27.500 --> 02:32:31.840 align:middle line:84% I thought that he handled the Olympics pretty seamlessly, 02:32:31.840 --> 02:32:35.100 align:middle line:84% considering that he inherited one big, fat mass 02:32:35.100 --> 02:32:37.357 align:middle line:84% and was able then to still oversee the Olympics. 02:32:37.357 --> 02:32:38.440 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, I guess. 02:32:38.440 --> 02:32:40.560 align:middle line:84% Right, yeah, he was in before the Olympics. 02:32:40.560 --> 02:32:41.680 align:middle line:90% That's right, yeah. 02:32:41.680 --> 02:32:45.340 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He came in, well, just before. 02:32:45.340 --> 02:32:49.500 align:middle line:84% And then, also, there was the change with the chancellor 02:32:49.500 --> 02:32:50.960 align:middle line:90% just prior to his coming in. 02:32:50.960 --> 02:32:53.720 align:middle line:90% So education had a big change. 02:32:53.720 --> 02:32:56.830 align:middle line:84% Fortunately, he got along very well with Dr. Porch. 02:32:56.830 --> 02:32:58.190 align:middle line:90% So that was not a problem. 02:32:58.190 --> 02:33:02.410 align:middle line:84% In fact, it was looking good all over the state of Georgia, 02:33:02.410 --> 02:33:04.410 align:middle line:84% that we finally were going to settle down 02:33:04.410 --> 02:33:07.870 align:middle line:84% to people who would get to work and not be Making waves, 02:33:07.870 --> 02:33:09.430 align:middle line:84% I guess is the word we want to say. 02:33:09.430 --> 02:33:12.130 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, no, it's been a good time since then. 02:33:12.130 --> 02:33:14.550 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: When you think back on all these years, 02:33:14.550 --> 02:33:18.610 align:middle line:84% almost 40 years of, technically, what, so just shy of that, 02:33:18.610 --> 02:33:19.977 align:middle line:90% 38 years? 02:33:19.977 --> 02:33:21.310 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: 38 and a half, yeah. 02:33:21.310 --> 02:33:23.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: 38 and a half years. 02:33:23.570 --> 02:33:25.850 align:middle line:84% When you look at it that way, you've 02:33:25.850 --> 02:33:28.690 align:middle line:84% ridden a lot of ups and downs at Tech, 02:33:28.690 --> 02:33:32.305 align:middle line:84% dig in, dig out, come up, come down. 02:33:32.305 --> 02:33:33.930 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: In general, it's been good. 02:33:33.930 --> 02:33:34.930 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Overall? 02:33:34.930 --> 02:33:35.638 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:33:35.638 --> 02:33:36.170 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah. 02:33:36.170 --> 02:33:36.870 align:middle line:90% Overall, it's good. 02:33:36.870 --> 02:33:37.410 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: You got good, strong-- 02:33:37.410 --> 02:33:38.710 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, if you're ending up on a good point-- 02:33:38.710 --> 02:33:39.360 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 02:33:39.360 --> 02:33:39.860 align:middle line:90% 02:33:39.860 --> 02:33:41.030 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: And we are. 02:33:41.030 --> 02:33:41.950 align:middle line:90% This is a good point. 02:33:41.950 --> 02:33:43.158 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Absolutely, yeah. 02:33:43.158 --> 02:33:46.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I mean, the Woodruff School is doing 02:33:46.210 --> 02:33:49.890 align:middle line:84% exceptionally well, in the top 10 02:33:49.890 --> 02:33:52.530 align:middle line:84% in the nation for both graduates and undergraduates, 02:33:52.530 --> 02:33:53.590 align:middle line:90% I understand it. 02:33:53.590 --> 02:33:57.680 align:middle line:84% You graduate more undergraduates and more graduates 02:33:57.680 --> 02:34:00.200 align:middle line:84% than any other engineering school in the country? 02:34:00.200 --> 02:34:04.760 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, sometimes Penn State at Texas A&M 02:34:04.760 --> 02:34:06.740 align:middle line:84% might be close with the undergraduates. 02:34:06.740 --> 02:34:10.280 align:middle line:84% But they're not close at the graduate level. 02:34:10.280 --> 02:34:13.160 align:middle line:84% And this past year, we were first 02:34:13.160 --> 02:34:16.200 align:middle line:84% in bachelor's, master's, and PhD. 02:34:16.200 --> 02:34:17.880 align:middle line:84% There are some other schools that 02:34:17.880 --> 02:34:20.500 align:middle line:90% do well at the graduate level. 02:34:20.500 --> 02:34:23.560 align:middle line:84% But typically, they have much smaller undergraduate programs, 02:34:23.560 --> 02:34:24.818 align:middle line:90% like Stanford. 02:34:24.818 --> 02:34:26.860 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Much smaller than our, then, huh? 02:34:26.860 --> 02:34:28.360 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah, undergraduate, 02:34:28.360 --> 02:34:31.280 align:middle line:84% Stanford's undergraduate's very small, very small. 02:34:31.280 --> 02:34:32.000 align:middle line:90% They might have-- 02:34:32.000 --> 02:34:33.720 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: What about MIT? 02:34:33.720 --> 02:34:34.800 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: It's bigger. 02:34:34.800 --> 02:34:36.460 align:middle line:84% It's bigger but not as big as we have. 02:34:36.460 --> 02:34:38.920 align:middle line:84% They might graduate, I think, lately, they've 02:34:38.920 --> 02:34:41.540 align:middle line:84% been in the neighborhood of 120 or something like that. 02:34:41.540 --> 02:34:43.790 align:middle line:84% We graduated 347 or 48, something like that last year. 02:34:43.790 --> 02:34:45.207 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's incredible, 02:34:45.207 --> 02:34:46.420 align:middle line:90% that kind of a difference. 02:34:46.420 --> 02:34:47.187 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:34:47.187 --> 02:34:49.520 align:middle line:84% At the graduate level, they're not a whole lot different 02:34:49.520 --> 02:34:50.640 align:middle line:90% than we are. 02:34:50.640 --> 02:34:53.280 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But we still rank ahead of them. 02:34:53.280 --> 02:34:56.620 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, in the US News and World Report popularity 02:34:56.620 --> 02:35:01.340 align:middle line:84% poll, number one is MIT and then Stanford. 02:35:01.340 --> 02:35:06.260 align:middle line:84% And then it varies between Michigan, Illinois, 02:35:06.260 --> 02:35:07.928 align:middle line:90% and Berkeley, and then us. 02:35:07.928 --> 02:35:09.720 align:middle line:84% And sometimes we're a little ahead of them. 02:35:09.720 --> 02:35:10.720 align:middle line:90% Sometimes [INAUDIBLE]. 02:35:10.720 --> 02:35:11.720 align:middle line:90% Sometimes we're a little behind. 02:35:11.720 --> 02:35:13.680 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And you say, that's a popularity poll, too. 02:35:13.680 --> 02:35:14.540 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:35:14.540 --> 02:35:17.200 align:middle line:84% The department rankings are strictly beauty contests. 02:35:17.200 --> 02:35:19.200 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Really bizarre how they do that. 02:35:19.200 --> 02:35:19.660 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:35:19.660 --> 02:35:21.243 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: They can be influenced 02:35:21.243 --> 02:35:24.400 align:middle line:84% by the number of percentage of giving on the part of alums. 02:35:24.400 --> 02:35:27.320 align:middle line:84% Or there's some really screwy things that go into that. 02:35:27.320 --> 02:35:32.620 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, no, the beauty contest at the department level 02:35:32.620 --> 02:35:33.920 align:middle line:90% is strictly a beauty contest. 02:35:33.920 --> 02:35:36.023 align:middle line:90% What they do is-- 02:35:36.023 --> 02:35:37.940 align:middle line:84% what they've been doing the last three or four 02:35:37.940 --> 02:35:42.500 align:middle line:84% years, they send around, to the deans, a list of-- they 02:35:42.500 --> 02:35:44.560 align:middle line:84% send them a package of materials. 02:35:44.560 --> 02:35:49.770 align:middle line:84% And one might be a list of all the mechanical engineering 02:35:49.770 --> 02:35:53.690 align:middle line:84% departments in the country offering undergraduate degrees. 02:35:53.690 --> 02:35:56.750 align:middle line:84% And then they asked the dean to rank them 1 through 5. 02:35:56.750 --> 02:35:58.750 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, so it's that kind of a vote? 02:35:58.750 --> 02:35:59.458 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:35:59.458 --> 02:36:01.130 align:middle line:90% 1 through 5 or you don't know. 02:36:01.130 --> 02:36:05.290 align:middle line:90% 5 is exceptional program. 02:36:05.290 --> 02:36:08.630 align:middle line:90% 1 is-- I think 2 is marginal. 02:36:08.630 --> 02:36:11.770 align:middle line:84% So 1 is something worse than that. 02:36:11.770 --> 02:36:13.610 align:middle line:84% And the dean's, I'm sure they all 02:36:13.610 --> 02:36:15.170 align:middle line:90% do the same thing our deans do. 02:36:15.170 --> 02:36:17.550 align:middle line:84% They take them and send them out to the department heads. 02:36:17.550 --> 02:36:19.010 align:middle line:84% They give me the mechanical engineering 02:36:19.010 --> 02:36:21.250 align:middle line:84% ones and the nuclear engineering ones and say, you fill it out. 02:36:21.250 --> 02:36:21.830 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: You fill it out. 02:36:21.830 --> 02:36:23.090 align:middle line:90% I don't know what's going on. 02:36:23.090 --> 02:36:27.150 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So I go down the list and do my checking. 02:36:27.150 --> 02:36:30.790 align:middle line:84% And on the undergraduate list, there's 320 schools. 02:36:30.790 --> 02:36:32.990 align:middle line:84% Well, what the hell do I know about 320 schools? 02:36:32.990 --> 02:36:34.090 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Nobody can know that. 02:36:34.090 --> 02:36:35.290 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No, nobody does. 02:36:35.290 --> 02:36:38.370 align:middle line:84% At the graduate list, it's probably only 150 offering 02:36:38.370 --> 02:36:39.130 align:middle line:90% graduate degrees. 02:36:39.130 --> 02:36:39.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But that' still too many to know. 02:36:39.790 --> 02:36:40.850 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: It is, yeah. 02:36:40.850 --> 02:36:42.017 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: How bizarre. 02:36:42.017 --> 02:36:48.120 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So clearly, past reputation plays a big role. 02:36:48.120 --> 02:36:50.720 align:middle line:84% And the halo effect of the institution they're in 02:36:50.720 --> 02:36:51.580 align:middle line:90% plays a big role. 02:36:51.580 --> 02:36:52.340 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Of course, it does. 02:36:52.340 --> 02:36:54.080 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Stanford is Stanford. 02:36:54.080 --> 02:36:55.300 align:middle line:90% And MIT is MIT. 02:36:55.300 --> 02:36:57.440 align:middle line:84% So they're ME department must be pretty good. 02:36:57.440 --> 02:36:58.560 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, that's what people say. 02:36:58.560 --> 02:37:00.120 align:middle line:84% That's the way the judgement goes. 02:37:00.120 --> 02:37:05.720 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: When they're ranking the colleges of engineering 02:37:05.720 --> 02:37:10.520 align:middle line:84% or the institute as a whole, they use more data. 02:37:10.520 --> 02:37:12.280 align:middle line:84% There is some beauty contest element. 02:37:12.280 --> 02:37:12.640 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I knew there was some kind of data 02:37:12.640 --> 02:37:13.885 align:middle line:90% that went in on stuff 02:37:13.885 --> 02:37:15.260 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: At the college level, 02:37:15.260 --> 02:37:18.480 align:middle line:84% they use things like, oh, a number 02:37:18.480 --> 02:37:20.780 align:middle line:84% of PhD students, number of faculty, 02:37:20.780 --> 02:37:22.722 align:middle line:90% amount of research dollars-- 02:37:22.722 --> 02:37:24.180 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That kind of thing. 02:37:24.180 --> 02:37:25.472 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: That kind of thing. 02:37:25.472 --> 02:37:27.340 align:middle line:84% Plus, reputational, in other words, 02:37:27.340 --> 02:37:33.160 align:middle line:84% a beauty contest from other deans and also from industry, 02:37:33.160 --> 02:37:35.280 align:middle line:84% selected industry group of people. 02:37:35.280 --> 02:37:36.820 align:middle line:84% And those are weighted differently. 02:37:36.820 --> 02:37:39.420 align:middle line:84% So that's a little more rational at the college level. 02:37:39.420 --> 02:37:41.170 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I've heard many people say 02:37:41.170 --> 02:37:43.640 align:middle line:84% that they think it's a mixed-- it's a double-edged sword. 02:37:43.640 --> 02:37:45.140 align:middle line:90% Do you feel that way about it? 02:37:45.140 --> 02:37:45.760 align:middle line:90% Do you think there's an-- 02:37:45.760 --> 02:37:46.640 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: In what sense? 02:37:46.640 --> 02:37:48.015 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, that it can 02:37:48.015 --> 02:37:49.645 align:middle line:90% harm you as well as help you. 02:37:49.645 --> 02:37:52.020 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, it can harm you if you don't rank well. 02:37:52.020 --> 02:37:54.000 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: If you don't rank well, yeah, absolutely. 02:37:54.000 --> 02:37:55.840 align:middle line:84% But, I mean, as far as recruiting goes, 02:37:55.840 --> 02:37:58.280 align:middle line:84% do you think the youngsters are really influenced? 02:37:58.280 --> 02:37:58.960 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, absolutely. 02:37:58.960 --> 02:38:00.200 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Absolutely influenced by it. 02:38:00.200 --> 02:38:01.160 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, absolutely. 02:38:01.160 --> 02:38:02.260 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Sometimes you know what I hear? 02:38:02.260 --> 02:38:04.100 align:middle line:84% That we've got a freshman class that 02:38:04.100 --> 02:38:05.920 align:middle line:84% represents 48 States in the Union. 02:38:05.920 --> 02:38:08.080 align:middle line:84% You think, how do these people know about this? 02:38:08.080 --> 02:38:09.188 align:middle line:90% Why do they come here? 02:38:09.188 --> 02:38:10.480 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: It absolutely does. 02:38:10.480 --> 02:38:11.120 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: So it does. 02:38:11.120 --> 02:38:12.245 align:middle line:90% That's where it comes from. 02:38:12.245 --> 02:38:14.140 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And the way we easily see 02:38:14.140 --> 02:38:17.580 align:middle line:84% it is at the graduate level because, at the school level, 02:38:17.580 --> 02:38:22.060 align:middle line:84% we do the admissions, primary responsibility for admissions. 02:38:22.060 --> 02:38:27.360 align:middle line:84% And as we started going up in the ranks of the beauty contest, 02:38:27.360 --> 02:38:30.200 align:middle line:84% we got more and more and more applications. 02:38:30.200 --> 02:38:31.540 align:middle line:90% I mean, they look at it. 02:38:31.540 --> 02:38:34.228 align:middle line:84% And, OK, we're number 6 or 7 or whatever. 02:38:34.228 --> 02:38:36.520 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I can't get into number 1, I'll-- yeah. 02:38:36.520 --> 02:38:40.440 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So they'll apply to three or four places. 02:38:40.440 --> 02:38:42.000 align:middle line:90% And one of them is you. 02:38:42.000 --> 02:38:44.090 align:middle line:90% They might apply to MIT as well. 02:38:44.090 --> 02:38:47.290 align:middle line:84% And occasionally, we can outmaneuver MIT 02:38:47.290 --> 02:38:49.230 align:middle line:90% on recruiting a top student. 02:38:49.230 --> 02:38:51.950 align:middle line:84% We probably lose more to MIT and Stanford than we gain. 02:38:51.950 --> 02:38:53.390 align:middle line:90% But we can still match. 02:38:53.390 --> 02:38:56.890 align:middle line:84% And we can easily go one on one against Michigan or Illinois 02:38:56.890 --> 02:38:58.387 align:middle line:90% or Purdue or Berkeley. 02:38:58.387 --> 02:38:59.970 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Interesting, isn't it? 02:38:59.970 --> 02:39:01.470 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah no, there's no doubt about it. 02:39:01.470 --> 02:39:02.490 align:middle line:90% Students look at that stuff. 02:39:02.490 --> 02:39:03.790 align:middle line:90% And their parents look at it. 02:39:03.790 --> 02:39:05.670 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Big, big, big game, in a way. 02:39:05.670 --> 02:39:08.010 align:middle line:84% It's a big game of Monopoly or something. 02:39:08.010 --> 02:39:09.670 align:middle line:90% Take your chances. 02:39:09.670 --> 02:39:10.170 align:middle line:90% Wow. 02:39:10.170 --> 02:39:11.650 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, that's one thing John White did 02:39:11.650 --> 02:39:12.590 align:middle line:90% when he was dean. 02:39:12.590 --> 02:39:15.970 align:middle line:84% He put a lot of effort into trying to understand that. 02:39:15.970 --> 02:39:18.790 align:middle line:84% And being an industrial engineering type, 02:39:18.790 --> 02:39:21.673 align:middle line:84% he got a couple of his logistics faculty to-- 02:39:21.673 --> 02:39:23.090 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Take a look at it. 02:39:23.090 --> 02:39:26.250 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: --study it and see what the weighting factors were 02:39:26.250 --> 02:39:28.130 align:middle line:84% and, therefore, put effort in this direction 02:39:28.130 --> 02:39:28.450 align:middle line:90% or that direction. 02:39:28.450 --> 02:39:29.390 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So we could do better. 02:39:29.390 --> 02:39:32.590 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, and I think he made an impact in that respect. 02:39:32.590 --> 02:39:34.048 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I didn't know that. 02:39:34.048 --> 02:39:37.530 align:middle line:84% But I would agree that it would've had to. 02:39:37.530 --> 02:39:41.170 align:middle line:84% How did you make the decision that you were ready to retire? 02:39:41.170 --> 02:39:46.000 align:middle line:90% How do you sit back and do that? 02:39:46.000 --> 02:39:49.060 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I'd been thinking about it. 02:39:49.060 --> 02:39:53.480 align:middle line:90% A lot of factors go into it. 02:39:53.480 --> 02:39:56.700 align:middle line:84% One factor is the fact that, because of when I came, 02:39:56.700 --> 02:40:00.580 align:middle line:84% I'm on the Teachers Retirement System of Georgia. 02:40:00.580 --> 02:40:03.040 align:middle line:84% And they have a maximum of 40 years of service 02:40:03.040 --> 02:40:04.440 align:middle line:90% that you can accumulate. 02:40:04.440 --> 02:40:10.260 align:middle line:84% OK, well, about 12 or 15 years ago, 02:40:10.260 --> 02:40:14.650 align:middle line:84% I bought in 3 and 2/3 years of service from when I was 02:40:14.650 --> 02:40:15.900 align:middle line:90% at the University of Michigan. 02:40:15.900 --> 02:40:18.637 align:middle line:84% I could've bought in 6 and 2/3 years or something like that. 02:40:18.637 --> 02:40:21.220 align:middle line:84% I figured I'd buy that just in case, something happened to me, 02:40:21.220 --> 02:40:27.480 align:middle line:84% it would improve Mary's benefits when I died. 02:40:27.480 --> 02:40:30.280 align:middle line:84% And then, later, they changed the law on sick leave 02:40:30.280 --> 02:40:33.960 align:middle line:84% and allowed you to use unused sick leave towards service. 02:40:33.960 --> 02:40:35.143 align:middle line:90% Well, I've rarely been sick. 02:40:35.143 --> 02:40:36.560 align:middle line:84% So I haven't used much sick leave. 02:40:36.560 --> 02:40:38.310 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Accumulated a lot of that. 02:40:38.310 --> 02:40:42.410 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So I have about two and a half years of sick leave 02:40:42.410 --> 02:40:43.370 align:middle line:90% credit to count. 02:40:43.370 --> 02:40:46.610 align:middle line:84% And I've got the 3 and 2/3 years that I bought in from Michigan. 02:40:46.610 --> 02:40:47.290 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you're getting close to that. 02:40:47.290 --> 02:40:49.290 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I've now got 38 and a half years in. 02:40:49.290 --> 02:40:50.550 align:middle line:90% So I'm way over the 40. 02:40:50.550 --> 02:40:51.090 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Oh, you're way over it. 02:40:51.090 --> 02:40:53.215 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So it's costing me to continue to work. 02:40:53.215 --> 02:40:55.548 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That is pretty crazy how that works out, 02:40:55.548 --> 02:40:56.283 align:middle line:90% isn't it? 02:40:56.283 --> 02:40:57.950 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: But then, probably the thing 02:40:57.950 --> 02:41:01.230 align:middle line:84% that triggered it, quite frankly, 02:41:01.230 --> 02:41:03.570 align:middle line:84% for one thing, another thing, I'm 71. 02:41:03.570 --> 02:41:04.960 align:middle line:90% OK, I mean, there's a limit. 02:41:04.960 --> 02:41:06.210 align:middle line:90% I'm not going to live forever. 02:41:06.210 --> 02:41:07.910 align:middle line:84% And I want to have a little free time out there some place. 02:41:07.910 --> 02:41:09.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: To do something, yeah. 02:41:09.790 --> 02:41:12.830 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: The thing that triggered it and made 02:41:12.830 --> 02:41:15.290 align:middle line:84% me move ahead at the time, again, 02:41:15.290 --> 02:41:17.710 align:middle line:84% since this is not going to be seen for a long time, 02:41:17.710 --> 02:41:22.070 align:middle line:84% I was one of the people interviewed for the provost job 02:41:22.070 --> 02:41:23.410 align:middle line:90% when [INAUDIBLE] left. 02:41:23.410 --> 02:41:28.270 align:middle line:84% And when I got a call while I was on vacation that said, 02:41:28.270 --> 02:41:30.150 align:middle line:84% you're not going to be one of the finalists. 02:41:30.150 --> 02:41:31.930 align:middle line:84% I turned to Mary and said, OK, that's it. 02:41:31.930 --> 02:41:34.150 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That's enough now. 02:41:34.150 --> 02:41:36.750 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I figured, if I got that, I'd 02:41:36.750 --> 02:41:39.162 align:middle line:84% be willing to put in another four or five years 02:41:39.162 --> 02:41:40.870 align:middle line:84% just because it'd be something different. 02:41:40.870 --> 02:41:42.037 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: A challenge. 02:41:42.037 --> 02:41:43.870 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I had talked to Clough about it. 02:41:43.870 --> 02:41:46.370 align:middle line:84% And he said he was looking for somebody for a short time 02:41:46.370 --> 02:41:48.490 align:middle line:84% because he wasn't going to be around long. 02:41:48.490 --> 02:41:51.290 align:middle line:84% And so he said he saw it as a thing that 02:41:51.290 --> 02:41:52.710 align:middle line:90% might be three to five years. 02:41:52.710 --> 02:41:54.650 align:middle line:84% And I said, OK, I'll give it a shot. 02:41:54.650 --> 02:41:57.390 align:middle line:84% But when I got word that I wasn't in the running, 02:41:57.390 --> 02:41:58.432 align:middle line:90% I said, OK, that's it. 02:41:58.432 --> 02:41:59.390 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Plan B. 02:41:59.390 --> 02:42:01.930 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, plan B. Well, plan B was already. 02:42:01.930 --> 02:42:07.410 align:middle line:84% So that was a year ago last, I don't know, August or-- 02:42:07.410 --> 02:42:09.330 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: That you announced and you've 02:42:09.330 --> 02:42:09.850 align:middle line:90% been wrapping-- 02:42:09.850 --> 02:42:11.150 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: No, that's when I got the word. 02:42:11.150 --> 02:42:11.890 align:middle line:90% So I-- 02:42:11.890 --> 02:42:13.790 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Started wrapping things up. 02:42:13.790 --> 02:42:21.690 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, I figured I'd go through Last academic year. 02:42:21.690 --> 02:42:25.330 align:middle line:84% But I knew that, if I announced very early, 02:42:25.330 --> 02:42:29.395 align:middle line:84% it'd just be a lot of questions and turmoil. 02:42:29.395 --> 02:42:30.270 align:middle line:90% You'd be a lame duck. 02:42:30.270 --> 02:42:31.970 align:middle line:90% So I waited until November. 02:42:31.970 --> 02:42:37.680 align:middle line:84% 1st of November, I told Giddens that I wanted to retire the end 02:42:37.680 --> 02:42:39.930 align:middle line:84% of May, which would take me through the academic year. 02:42:39.930 --> 02:42:42.430 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And he sweet talked you into staying longer. 02:42:42.430 --> 02:42:44.520 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, he was kind of slow in getting 02:42:44.520 --> 02:42:46.440 align:middle line:90% the process going. 02:42:46.440 --> 02:42:48.848 align:middle line:84% But the process has been pretty slow. 02:42:48.848 --> 02:42:50.640 align:middle line:84% And so then he approached me and say if I'd 02:42:50.640 --> 02:42:51.820 align:middle line:90% stick around for a while. 02:42:51.820 --> 02:42:54.760 align:middle line:84% And I said, well, OK, I will, but no longer than the end 02:42:54.760 --> 02:42:56.850 align:middle line:90% of November in '07. 02:42:56.850 --> 02:42:58.100 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Is that final? 02:42:58.100 --> 02:42:58.980 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: That's final. 02:42:58.980 --> 02:42:59.540 align:middle line:90% That is it. 02:42:59.540 --> 02:43:00.820 align:middle line:90% I've filed the papers. 02:43:00.820 --> 02:43:03.000 align:middle line:90% I've signed all the paperwork. 02:43:03.000 --> 02:43:06.500 align:middle line:84% And he's going to appoint an interim, 02:43:06.500 --> 02:43:07.660 align:middle line:90% probably in the next week. 02:43:07.660 --> 02:43:09.100 align:middle line:84% He's already settled on somebody. 02:43:09.100 --> 02:43:11.100 align:middle line:84% And so he's going to appoint an interim in the next week. 02:43:11.100 --> 02:43:13.020 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And then that'll free you up, then, too. 02:43:13.020 --> 02:43:14.842 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So I'll be off for December. 02:43:14.842 --> 02:43:16.800 align:middle line:84% And actually, he wants me to come back and work 02:43:16.800 --> 02:43:19.000 align:middle line:84% in the dean's office half time for a while 02:43:19.000 --> 02:43:20.980 align:middle line:84% on some special projects he's got, 02:43:20.980 --> 02:43:23.960 align:middle line:84% which I think I'd like to do and will do. 02:43:23.960 --> 02:43:27.520 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: In the long term, what are you going to do? 02:43:27.520 --> 02:43:29.492 align:middle line:90% You've got tons of hobbies. 02:43:29.492 --> 02:43:30.200 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:43:30.200 --> 02:43:31.242 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Are you-- 02:43:31.242 --> 02:43:36.270 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I would like to do some more traveling, both 02:43:36.270 --> 02:43:38.150 align:middle line:90% in the US and abroad. 02:43:38.150 --> 02:43:39.290 align:middle line:90% I like to read. 02:43:39.290 --> 02:43:45.470 align:middle line:84% I've been taking cooking classes and-- 02:43:45.470 --> 02:43:46.830 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Gourmet cooking? 02:43:46.830 --> 02:43:49.830 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, at the Cook's Warehouse, they run courses. 02:43:49.830 --> 02:43:53.910 align:middle line:84% And Mary bought me a gift certificate for courses 02:43:53.910 --> 02:43:56.870 align:middle line:84% about a year and a half ago for Christmas, maybe two years ago 02:43:56.870 --> 02:43:57.750 align:middle line:90% now. 02:43:57.750 --> 02:44:00.610 align:middle line:84% And so I used that up, took three or four courses 02:44:00.610 --> 02:44:03.070 align:middle line:84% and, in the process, learned that, 02:44:03.070 --> 02:44:05.910 align:middle line:84% if you become-- they call them an assistant, 02:44:05.910 --> 02:44:08.630 align:middle line:84% like a TA at the classes-- then you go free. 02:44:08.630 --> 02:44:10.667 align:middle line:84% And you actually get credit towards new classes. 02:44:10.667 --> 02:44:12.250 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So are you doing that? 02:44:12.250 --> 02:44:12.530 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, yeah. 02:44:12.530 --> 02:44:14.070 align:middle line:90% I've been working as a TA. 02:44:14.070 --> 02:44:15.683 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, good for you. 02:44:15.683 --> 02:44:16.850 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Cooking classes. 02:44:16.850 --> 02:44:17.470 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Good for everyone 02:44:17.470 --> 02:44:20.470 align:middle line:84% who knows you because you'll become a very good cook, then, 02:44:20.470 --> 02:44:20.990 align:middle line:90% no doubt? 02:44:20.990 --> 02:44:21.850 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I don't know about that. 02:44:21.850 --> 02:44:24.890 align:middle line:84% But Mary's a very good cook, so it's tough to compete with her. 02:44:24.890 --> 02:44:25.792 align:middle line:90% But I enjoy it. 02:44:25.792 --> 02:44:26.750 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: You do. 02:44:26.750 --> 02:44:28.042 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: I like photography. 02:44:28.042 --> 02:44:28.970 align:middle line:90% I like to read. 02:44:28.970 --> 02:44:30.697 align:middle line:90% I like music. 02:44:30.697 --> 02:44:33.030 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So you don't plan on being bored at all. 02:44:33.030 --> 02:44:34.630 align:middle line:90% You're going to keep real busy. 02:44:34.630 --> 02:44:36.773 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: She plays bridge much better than I do. 02:44:36.773 --> 02:44:39.190 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Don't you have a home up on the lake, too? 02:44:39.190 --> 02:44:40.830 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, Lake Hartwell, we've got a place. 02:44:40.830 --> 02:44:41.410 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So there's always 02:44:41.410 --> 02:44:44.090 align:middle line:84% something to be done with one house or another. 02:44:44.090 --> 02:44:46.030 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: So I've taken some bridge lessons. 02:44:46.030 --> 02:44:49.410 align:middle line:84% And we hope to play in some sanctioned bridge tournaments 02:44:49.410 --> 02:44:51.310 align:middle line:90% and see how we do. 02:44:51.310 --> 02:44:52.810 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: A little competition 02:44:52.810 --> 02:44:54.018 align:middle line:90% to keep the blood going, huh? 02:44:54.018 --> 02:44:58.090 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: As I say, I want to have more control over my time 02:44:58.090 --> 02:44:59.867 align:middle line:90% for the time I have left. 02:44:59.867 --> 02:45:00.950 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Very good. 02:45:00.950 --> 02:45:02.330 align:middle line:90% It's a plan. 02:45:02.330 --> 02:45:03.990 align:middle line:90% Tell me about the children now. 02:45:03.990 --> 02:45:06.370 align:middle line:84% Let's start with Mathew with one T. 02:45:06.370 --> 02:45:07.270 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: OK. 02:45:07.270 --> 02:45:09.010 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What does Mathew do for a living? 02:45:09.010 --> 02:45:10.885 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: He's an institutional stockbroker 02:45:10.885 --> 02:45:13.650 align:middle line:84% for Robinson-Humphrey, doing very, very well, 02:45:13.650 --> 02:45:15.250 align:middle line:84% much better than I ever dreamed of-- 02:45:15.250 --> 02:45:16.607 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 02:45:16.607 --> 02:45:17.190 align:middle line:90% --fortunately. 02:45:17.190 --> 02:45:19.010 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Where did he go to school? 02:45:19.010 --> 02:45:21.530 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, all the kids graduated from Riverwood High 02:45:21.530 --> 02:45:22.390 align:middle line:90% School here. 02:45:22.390 --> 02:45:25.410 align:middle line:84% And he went to Georgia State and studied finance 02:45:25.410 --> 02:45:28.170 align:middle line:84% in the business program, got a bachelor's degree, 02:45:28.170 --> 02:45:31.160 align:middle line:84% and then went to work for Robinson-Humphrey, 02:45:31.160 --> 02:45:34.860 align:middle line:84% actually working, I think, in the computer support initially. 02:45:34.860 --> 02:45:38.080 align:middle line:84% And then people identified him as somebody 02:45:38.080 --> 02:45:41.380 align:middle line:84% with a good gift of gab and a really hard-working guy. 02:45:41.380 --> 02:45:45.320 align:middle line:84% And so he's [INAUDIBLE] doing very well. 02:45:45.320 --> 02:45:46.760 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Is he married? 02:45:46.760 --> 02:45:48.218 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah, he's married. 02:45:48.218 --> 02:45:55.320 align:middle line:84% His wife graduated from Emory undergraduate and then 02:45:55.320 --> 02:45:58.260 align:middle line:84% Georgia State with a master's degree. 02:45:58.260 --> 02:46:00.720 align:middle line:90% She's a CPA. 02:46:00.720 --> 02:46:02.320 align:middle line:84% And she's taking care of the kids 02:46:02.320 --> 02:46:04.540 align:middle line:84% and doing consulting now as a CPA. 02:46:04.540 --> 02:46:05.660 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And how many children do they have? 02:46:05.660 --> 02:46:06.200 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Three. 02:46:06.200 --> 02:46:06.700 align:middle line:90% Three. 02:46:06.700 --> 02:46:08.100 align:middle line:90% And I can name them, all three. 02:46:08.100 --> 02:46:10.080 align:middle line:90% The oldest one is Kelly. 02:46:10.080 --> 02:46:14.440 align:middle line:90% She's a junior at Marist. 02:46:14.440 --> 02:46:16.580 align:middle line:90% And Christy is the next one. 02:46:16.580 --> 02:46:20.600 align:middle line:84% And she's in the eighth or ninth grade at Marist. 02:46:20.600 --> 02:46:22.100 align:middle line:90% And their son is Jonathan. 02:46:22.100 --> 02:46:30.510 align:middle line:84% And he's in Jackson Elementary School over on Mount Paran. 02:46:30.510 --> 02:46:33.708 align:middle line:90% They're all great kids. 02:46:33.708 --> 02:46:35.250 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Next up would be Jim. 02:46:35.250 --> 02:46:36.125 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Jim, yep. 02:46:36.125 --> 02:46:41.730 align:middle line:84% Jim was-- well, Matt was born January 1, 1959. 02:46:41.730 --> 02:46:45.640 align:middle line:84% Everybody says, oh you missed an income tax deduction. 02:46:45.640 --> 02:46:47.390 align:middle line:84% And I say, no, we didn't because we didn't 02:46:47.390 --> 02:46:48.410 align:middle line:90% have any income at the time. 02:46:48.410 --> 02:46:49.810 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It didn't matter. 02:46:49.810 --> 02:46:56.390 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Jim was born in June of 1960 02:46:56.390 --> 02:46:59.110 align:middle line:84% in Ann Arbor, both of them in Ann Arbor. 02:46:59.110 --> 02:47:02.250 align:middle line:84% Jim went to Georgia Tech architecture, 02:47:02.250 --> 02:47:05.870 align:middle line:84% bachelor's and master's degree, participated in the France, 02:47:05.870 --> 02:47:09.910 align:middle line:84% Paris program for a year, and then in the summer program 02:47:09.910 --> 02:47:13.790 align:middle line:84% in England for a year during his master's. 02:47:13.790 --> 02:47:16.030 align:middle line:90% He started out working for-- 02:47:16.030 --> 02:47:19.550 align:middle line:84% well, he did a lot of work for a couple of different architects 02:47:19.550 --> 02:47:22.350 align:middle line:84% and some on his own while he was still a student. 02:47:22.350 --> 02:47:25.350 align:middle line:84% And then he worked for Jova/Daniels/Busby 02:47:25.350 --> 02:47:27.130 align:middle line:90% for a few years. 02:47:27.130 --> 02:47:30.610 align:middle line:84% And then he and his partner, who also 02:47:30.610 --> 02:47:33.130 align:middle line:84% worked at Jova/Daniels/Busby, split 02:47:33.130 --> 02:47:35.607 align:middle line:84% and started their own firm, Menefee and Winer. 02:47:35.607 --> 02:47:37.190 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And he's done so well. 02:47:37.190 --> 02:47:38.310 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, they're doing very well. 02:47:38.310 --> 02:47:40.435 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It's gotten much, much recognition. 02:47:40.435 --> 02:47:41.170 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 02:47:41.170 --> 02:47:43.690 align:middle line:84% They recently bought property over 02:47:43.690 --> 02:47:45.430 align:middle line:90% on Bradford Street-- or Brady? 02:47:45.430 --> 02:47:45.930 align:middle line:90% Brady? 02:47:45.930 --> 02:47:46.490 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Brady Street. 02:47:46.490 --> 02:47:47.110 align:middle line:90% I've been there. 02:47:47.110 --> 02:47:47.550 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Have you? 02:47:47.550 --> 02:47:48.850 align:middle line:90% Yeah, they did a great job. 02:47:48.850 --> 02:47:52.850 align:middle line:84% Took an old taxi muffler shop or something like that, 02:47:52.850 --> 02:47:55.218 align:middle line:84% and turned it into a really nice, modern building. 02:47:55.218 --> 02:47:56.510 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: It's wonderful. 02:47:56.510 --> 02:47:56.850 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah. 02:47:56.850 --> 02:47:58.110 align:middle line:90% And, yeah, they're doing well. 02:47:58.110 --> 02:48:01.050 align:middle line:84% I don't how many they've got, maybe 18 or so employees 02:48:01.050 --> 02:48:02.450 align:middle line:90% or something like that. 02:48:02.450 --> 02:48:04.050 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And he married Anna. 02:48:04.050 --> 02:48:06.130 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: He's married to Anna, who's 02:48:06.130 --> 02:48:09.090 align:middle line:90% from Winchester, Kentucky. 02:48:09.090 --> 02:48:12.970 align:middle line:84% And I think she graduated from Emory. 02:48:12.970 --> 02:48:15.730 align:middle line:90% No, no, she graduated from-- 02:48:15.730 --> 02:48:21.390 align:middle line:84% oh, God. what's the place up in South Carolina, 02:48:21.390 --> 02:48:25.200 align:middle line:90% just north of Greenville? 02:48:25.200 --> 02:48:26.082 align:middle line:90% Starts with an F. 02:48:26.082 --> 02:48:27.040 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Furman? 02:48:27.040 --> 02:48:28.082 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Furman, yeah. 02:48:28.082 --> 02:48:30.757 align:middle line:84% She graduated from Furman in art, I believe. 02:48:30.757 --> 02:48:32.340 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yes, in art, for sure. 02:48:32.340 --> 02:48:34.480 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, she worked at the High 02:48:34.480 --> 02:48:38.800 align:middle line:84% for a while, assistant curator for photography. 02:48:38.800 --> 02:48:42.860 align:middle line:90% And she does various jobs now. 02:48:42.860 --> 02:48:44.020 align:middle line:90% But she's mainly mother. 02:48:44.020 --> 02:48:45.140 align:middle line:90% She's got three kids. 02:48:45.140 --> 02:48:46.400 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: And they are? 02:48:46.400 --> 02:48:47.740 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oldest one is James. 02:48:47.740 --> 02:48:50.153 align:middle line:84% He's about eight, I think, eight. 02:48:50.153 --> 02:48:51.320 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Sounds good. 02:48:51.320 --> 02:48:56.860 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And the next one is Ellen, who's probably six, 02:48:56.860 --> 02:48:59.320 align:middle line:84% I would guess six, seven, maybe seven. 02:48:59.320 --> 02:49:05.560 align:middle line:84% And Mary Victoria, who's five, I think, four or five. 02:49:05.560 --> 02:49:10.800 align:middle line:84% And they go to, maybe Morningside School, I think, 02:49:10.800 --> 02:49:13.000 align:middle line:90% someplace over there. 02:49:13.000 --> 02:49:15.160 align:middle line:90% And they live in Ansley Park. 02:49:15.160 --> 02:49:16.840 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And what about Paul? 02:49:16.840 --> 02:49:18.722 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Paul went to Tech. 02:49:18.722 --> 02:49:19.680 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Did he? 02:49:19.680 --> 02:49:20.347 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yep. 02:49:20.347 --> 02:49:22.710 align:middle line:84% Got a bachelor's degree in computer science. 02:49:22.710 --> 02:49:28.710 align:middle line:84% Went out to work for a few years and decided being a computer 02:49:28.710 --> 02:49:30.530 align:middle line:90% software guy wasn't for him. 02:49:30.530 --> 02:49:32.550 align:middle line:84% He wanted more interaction with people. 02:49:32.550 --> 02:49:36.450 align:middle line:84% So he came back to Tech, got a, what is it, 02:49:36.450 --> 02:49:40.910 align:middle line:84% a master of management science, like an MBA, with Tech 02:49:40.910 --> 02:49:45.030 align:middle line:84% and went to work for Curt Salmon for a few years. 02:49:45.030 --> 02:49:48.010 align:middle line:84% Part of the time, he was up in the Northeast, 02:49:48.010 --> 02:49:51.330 align:middle line:84% lived in Princeton, working out of their office there. 02:49:51.330 --> 02:49:53.470 align:middle line:84% And he met his wife there, Carol, 02:49:53.470 --> 02:49:57.750 align:middle line:84% who is a Georgia Tech industrial engineering graduate. 02:49:57.750 --> 02:50:01.590 align:middle line:84% And they continued to work there for a while 02:50:01.590 --> 02:50:03.830 align:middle line:84% and realized that there was no way 02:50:03.830 --> 02:50:06.590 align:middle line:84% to have a family because they saw each other about every third 02:50:06.590 --> 02:50:07.910 align:middle line:90% weekend or something. 02:50:07.910 --> 02:50:09.370 align:middle line:90% She was traveling to Italy. 02:50:09.370 --> 02:50:11.190 align:middle line:84% And he was traveling to California and New 02:50:11.190 --> 02:50:12.610 align:middle line:90% England and Canada. 02:50:12.610 --> 02:50:16.390 align:middle line:84% And so they left, came back to Atlanta, 02:50:16.390 --> 02:50:19.370 align:middle line:84% and has worked for two or three outfits since then. 02:50:19.370 --> 02:50:24.210 align:middle line:84% They recently moved to Fairfield, Iowa. 02:50:24.210 --> 02:50:27.890 align:middle line:90% They're both meditators and TM. 02:50:27.890 --> 02:50:30.205 align:middle line:84% And there's a big TM community in Fairfield. 02:50:30.205 --> 02:50:31.830 align:middle line:84% So they wanted to go there for a while. 02:50:31.830 --> 02:50:36.730 align:middle line:84% They kept their home over by Little Five Points 02:50:36.730 --> 02:50:41.250 align:middle line:84% and are going to rent it out, but bought a place in Fairfield. 02:50:41.250 --> 02:50:46.050 align:middle line:84% And he actually is working for or doing a consulting job 02:50:46.050 --> 02:50:50.250 align:middle line:84% for JC Penney's in Dallas and commutes on the weekends 02:50:50.250 --> 02:50:52.357 align:middle line:90% from there to Fairfield, Iowa. 02:50:52.357 --> 02:50:54.190 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Is that not quite a commute? 02:50:54.190 --> 02:50:55.970 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, well, it's quite a commute, yeah. 02:50:55.970 --> 02:50:57.610 align:middle line:84% A couple hour drive and a long air 02:50:57.610 --> 02:50:59.730 align:middle line:84% flight, and he spends four days a week down there, 02:50:59.730 --> 02:51:02.110 align:middle line:84% and then comes back for three days in Fairfield. 02:51:02.110 --> 02:51:05.210 align:middle line:90% 02:51:05.210 --> 02:51:12.470 align:middle line:84% They're redoing JC Penney's catalog and internet sales. 02:51:12.470 --> 02:51:15.250 align:middle line:84% He's heading up a group of JC Penney employees. 02:51:15.250 --> 02:51:16.210 align:middle line:90% Yeah, so-- 02:51:16.210 --> 02:51:17.668 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: They have children? 02:51:17.668 --> 02:51:19.020 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, they got two. 02:51:19.020 --> 02:51:23.080 align:middle line:90% 02:51:23.080 --> 02:51:24.440 align:middle line:90% Yeah, that's right, OK. 02:51:24.440 --> 02:51:28.800 align:middle line:84% I'm trying to make sure we come out with 11. 02:51:28.800 --> 02:51:29.700 align:middle line:90% They have two. 02:51:29.700 --> 02:51:31.140 align:middle line:90% The oldest one is Phillip. 02:51:31.140 --> 02:51:32.800 align:middle line:90% He's about eight. 02:51:32.800 --> 02:51:39.042 align:middle line:84% And then a girl named Chase, who's probably six, 02:51:39.042 --> 02:51:40.500 align:middle line:84% I would guess, something like that. 02:51:40.500 --> 02:51:41.660 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Good, you're doing fine. 02:51:41.660 --> 02:51:43.040 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, I'm doing OK. 02:51:43.040 --> 02:51:46.800 align:middle line:84% It turns out, three of the boy grandchildren 02:51:46.800 --> 02:51:48.717 align:middle line:84% were born within a month or two of each other. 02:51:48.717 --> 02:51:50.092 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: They're all going 02:51:50.092 --> 02:51:52.300 align:middle line:84% to be cousins of about the same interests and ages. 02:51:52.300 --> 02:51:53.508 align:middle line:90% What about Mary Margaret now? 02:51:53.508 --> 02:51:57.452 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Mary Margaret went to Riverwood High School. 02:51:57.452 --> 02:51:59.660 align:middle line:84% And then she went to two or three different colleges. 02:51:59.660 --> 02:52:01.260 align:middle line:90% She went to Valdosta for a year. 02:52:01.260 --> 02:52:03.680 align:middle line:90% She went to Georgia for a year. 02:52:03.680 --> 02:52:05.480 align:middle line:84% She finally got a bachelor's degree 02:52:05.480 --> 02:52:10.973 align:middle line:84% from Grand Valley College in Grand Rapids. 02:52:10.973 --> 02:52:12.640 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Up in Grand Rapids, hmm. 02:52:12.640 --> 02:52:17.230 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: She moved up there after she went to Georgia 02:52:17.230 --> 02:52:21.550 align:middle line:84% and lived with my brother for, I don't know, six or eight months 02:52:21.550 --> 02:52:23.750 align:middle line:90% to establish residency. 02:52:23.750 --> 02:52:26.230 align:middle line:84% And then she moved out and lived on her own for a while 02:52:26.230 --> 02:52:29.930 align:middle line:84% and went to school, worked and went to college. 02:52:29.930 --> 02:52:34.630 align:middle line:84% She met a guy there who had been married before and had two kids. 02:52:34.630 --> 02:52:36.810 align:middle line:90% And they got married. 02:52:36.810 --> 02:52:41.430 align:middle line:84% And she basically raised those two kids from teenagers 02:52:41.430 --> 02:52:43.270 align:middle line:84% until they've gone out on their own. 02:52:43.270 --> 02:52:47.030 align:middle line:90% And they have three kids. 02:52:47.030 --> 02:52:53.710 align:middle line:84% She married Don Phillips, who is a tool-and-die maker for General 02:52:53.710 --> 02:52:54.542 align:middle line:90% Motors. 02:52:54.542 --> 02:52:56.250 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: So they live in Michigan? 02:52:56.250 --> 02:52:59.630 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, she lives in Middleville, yeah, Middleville, 02:52:59.630 --> 02:53:02.270 align:middle line:90% just south of Grand Rapids. 02:53:02.270 --> 02:53:04.770 align:middle line:84% And they have three kids, the oldest one is Christopher, 02:53:04.770 --> 02:53:09.310 align:middle line:84% who is eight, like the other, roughly eight-year-old types, 02:53:09.310 --> 02:53:14.430 align:middle line:90% and then a daughter named-- 02:53:14.430 --> 02:53:18.195 align:middle line:90% oh, you're going to get me here. 02:53:18.195 --> 02:53:19.570 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I can't help you. 02:53:19.570 --> 02:53:19.750 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 02:53:19.750 --> 02:53:21.110 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: I know you can't help me. 02:53:21.110 --> 02:53:21.610 align:middle line:90% But it's-- 02:53:21.610 --> 02:53:23.490 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: It'll come to you. 02:53:23.490 --> 02:53:28.490 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, Christopher and Caitlyn, OK, Caitlyn, she's 02:53:28.490 --> 02:53:30.050 align:middle line:90% probably about six. 02:53:30.050 --> 02:53:36.890 align:middle line:84% And then a boy who's four, I think, his name is Adam Ward. 02:53:36.890 --> 02:53:38.130 align:middle line:90% His second name's Ward. 02:53:38.130 --> 02:53:40.050 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Do you ever get all of these youngsters 02:53:40.050 --> 02:53:40.568 align:middle line:90% together? 02:53:40.568 --> 02:53:43.110 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Oh, we used to get them all together quite often, 02:53:43.110 --> 02:53:43.510 align:middle line:90% actually. 02:53:43.510 --> 02:53:44.210 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Holidays coming, are you 02:53:44.210 --> 02:53:45.252 align:middle line:90% all going to be together? 02:53:45.252 --> 02:53:48.470 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Mary would come down for Christmas, for example, 02:53:48.470 --> 02:53:50.590 align:middle line:90% or Thanksgiving or something. 02:53:50.590 --> 02:53:54.312 align:middle line:84% And actually, they came down for my retirement. 02:53:54.312 --> 02:53:56.270 align:middle line:84% So they were all here for the retirement party. 02:53:56.270 --> 02:53:58.395 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: What fun to have them all together. 02:53:58.395 --> 02:54:02.550 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And until a month ago, Paul lived here. 02:54:02.550 --> 02:54:05.528 align:middle line:84% So now you're 8 out of the 11 were here in town. 02:54:05.528 --> 02:54:07.070 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Isn't that something? 02:54:07.070 --> 02:54:07.390 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, yeah. 02:54:07.390 --> 02:54:09.670 align:middle line:84% It was a real mob scene around here if we had them all in. 02:54:09.670 --> 02:54:11.090 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I'm trying to think of a Christmas morning 02:54:11.090 --> 02:54:12.230 align:middle line:90% with that many children around. 02:54:12.230 --> 02:54:14.438 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, no, we didn't do Christmas morning. 02:54:14.438 --> 02:54:17.055 align:middle line:84% We always had Christmas Eve, which was pretty chaotic. 02:54:17.055 --> 02:54:18.680 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: In its own right, yeah. 02:54:18.680 --> 02:54:20.800 align:middle line:84% And do you ever take them up to the lake to the cottage 02:54:20.800 --> 02:54:21.040 align:middle line:90% up there? 02:54:21.040 --> 02:54:22.123 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, we have. 02:54:22.123 --> 02:54:22.800 align:middle line:90% We have. 02:54:22.800 --> 02:54:24.732 align:middle line:84% Not so much lately, earlier, we did. 02:54:24.732 --> 02:54:26.440 align:middle line:84% But it's hard to get them-- well, I mean, 02:54:26.440 --> 02:54:27.332 align:middle line:90% they do individually. 02:54:27.332 --> 02:54:29.540 align:middle line:84% Some of the ones who live here will go up and use it. 02:54:29.540 --> 02:54:31.160 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: But not all together at one time. 02:54:31.160 --> 02:54:32.000 align:middle line:90% Living farflung makes it harder. 02:54:32.000 --> 02:54:33.750 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: We have had them all together. 02:54:33.750 --> 02:54:36.960 align:middle line:84% But I think before the last two were born, probably. 02:54:36.960 --> 02:54:37.960 align:middle line:90% It's been several years. 02:54:37.960 --> 02:54:38.328 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, I'm glad that they all 02:54:38.328 --> 02:54:39.640 align:middle line:90% came for your retirement. 02:54:39.640 --> 02:54:40.340 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Yeah, it was great. 02:54:40.340 --> 02:54:41.460 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: That was great. 02:54:41.460 --> 02:54:43.710 align:middle line:84% I knew there were a lot of little bodies around there. 02:54:43.710 --> 02:54:46.160 align:middle line:84% But I didn't know that they were all your little bodies. 02:54:46.160 --> 02:54:47.500 align:middle line:90% Well, congratulations, grandpa. 02:54:47.500 --> 02:54:48.340 align:middle line:90% You did it. 02:54:48.340 --> 02:54:48.820 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Thank you. 02:54:48.820 --> 02:54:49.360 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 02:54:49.360 --> 02:54:51.402 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I wish I had a prize to give you. 02:54:51.402 --> 02:54:53.318 align:middle line:84% But all you have from this is satisfaction. 02:54:53.318 --> 02:54:54.360 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: That's right. 02:54:54.360 --> 02:54:55.777 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: 50 years from now, 02:54:55.777 --> 02:54:58.480 align:middle line:84% when this has been transferred to who knows what medium-- 02:54:58.480 --> 02:55:00.313 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: And who knows who Ward Winer is? 02:55:00.313 --> 02:55:02.355 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Well, they'll always who you are. 02:55:02.355 --> 02:55:03.403 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: No, I know. 02:55:03.403 --> 02:55:05.320 align:middle line:84% But I told you the story about Cheng Lin Chen, 02:55:05.320 --> 02:55:06.840 align:middle line:84% when they didn't know who he was. 02:55:06.840 --> 02:55:08.980 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: At Georgia Tech, no, we probably won't. 02:55:08.980 --> 02:55:10.730 align:middle line:84% But your family better, my goodness sakes. 02:55:10.730 --> 02:55:11.910 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: That's true. 02:55:11.910 --> 02:55:14.630 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I remember a very prominent alum who 02:55:14.630 --> 02:55:16.610 align:middle line:90% was a president of his company. 02:55:16.610 --> 02:55:17.650 align:middle line:90% And he retired. 02:55:17.650 --> 02:55:20.230 align:middle line:84% And he said he went back just two weeks later. 02:55:20.230 --> 02:55:22.370 align:middle line:84% And they had already changed the receptionist. 02:55:22.370 --> 02:55:25.370 align:middle line:84% And when he went in, she wanted to know who he was. 02:55:25.370 --> 02:55:27.370 align:middle line:84% Excuse me, sir, where do you think you're going? 02:55:27.370 --> 02:55:28.870 align:middle line:90% Who are you? 02:55:28.870 --> 02:55:30.650 align:middle line:84% He said it was such a shock to him. 02:55:30.650 --> 02:55:33.370 align:middle line:84% And he had owned as well as be president of that company. 02:55:33.370 --> 02:55:34.370 align:middle line:90% But he had sold it. 02:55:34.370 --> 02:55:34.890 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Good grief. 02:55:34.890 --> 02:55:36.410 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Just like that. 02:55:36.410 --> 02:55:40.430 align:middle line:84% He said, boy, talk about putting you in your place. 02:55:40.430 --> 02:55:41.950 align:middle line:90% We keep ourselves humble. 02:55:41.950 --> 02:55:44.367 align:middle line:84% Well, I think you've done a fine job recounting. 02:55:44.367 --> 02:55:45.950 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Well, I lasted a whole lot 02:55:45.950 --> 02:55:46.810 align:middle line:90% longer than I expected. 02:55:46.810 --> 02:55:48.370 align:middle line:84% I'm sure, a lot longer than you expected. 02:55:48.370 --> 02:55:49.770 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: No, no, not at all. 02:55:49.770 --> 02:55:51.530 align:middle line:84% No, I knew we were going to be here for a while. 02:55:51.530 --> 02:55:52.280 align:middle line:90% You can ask Scott. 02:55:52.280 --> 02:55:55.297 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: By the way, how do you know Jim and Paul so well? 02:55:55.297 --> 02:55:57.130 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: I don't know Paul very well. 02:55:57.130 --> 02:56:00.370 align:middle line:84% But I know Jim really well, just from being an alum at Tech. 02:56:00.370 --> 02:56:03.510 align:middle line:84% And he was involved with young alumni when I was in there. 02:56:03.510 --> 02:56:05.010 align:middle line:84% And we've just gotten to be friends. 02:56:05.010 --> 02:56:07.210 align:middle line:84% And a couple times a year, we have lunch together. 02:56:07.210 --> 02:56:10.520 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: He talks about you, and you talk about him. 02:56:10.520 --> 02:56:13.512 align:middle line:84% But I didn't how the two of you got together. 02:56:13.512 --> 02:56:15.220 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: He gave me the grand tour 02:56:15.220 --> 02:56:16.720 align:middle line:90% of the Biltmore ballrooms. 02:56:16.720 --> 02:56:17.280 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, is that right? 02:56:17.280 --> 02:56:18.800 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Went over, went through all that with him. 02:56:18.800 --> 02:56:21.092 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Yeah, that was a great opportunity for him. 02:56:21.092 --> 02:56:22.680 align:middle line:90% They did a great job at it. 02:56:22.680 --> 02:56:25.240 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: And I knew Anna when she worked at the High. 02:56:25.240 --> 02:56:25.880 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Oh, is that right? 02:56:25.880 --> 02:56:27.338 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: Yeah, so it's just, 02:56:27.338 --> 02:56:28.960 align:middle line:84% even though Atlanta's a big city, 02:56:28.960 --> 02:56:31.680 align:middle line:84% sometimes it's a small community, knowing people. 02:56:31.680 --> 02:56:32.940 align:middle line:90% So, yeah. 02:56:32.940 --> 02:56:34.980 align:middle line:84% And Jim will be most pleased that we've 02:56:34.980 --> 02:56:38.140 align:middle line:84% done this because my dad's got some great stories. 02:56:38.140 --> 02:56:39.400 align:middle line:90% So I said, well, don't worry. 02:56:39.400 --> 02:56:41.520 align:middle line:84% As soon as he retires, I'm going to nail him down. 02:56:41.520 --> 02:56:43.120 align:middle line:90% So it's been a pleasure. 02:56:43.120 --> 02:56:45.560 align:middle line:84% Thank you so much for sharing that with us today. 02:56:45.560 --> 02:56:46.560 align:middle line:84% WARD WINER: Thanks for the opportunity. 02:56:46.560 --> 02:56:48.800 align:middle line:84% MARILYN SOMERS: We took the whole afternoon away from you. 02:56:48.800 --> 02:56:49.060 align:middle line:90% But-- 02:56:49.060 --> 02:56:49.760 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: That's all right. 02:56:49.760 --> 02:56:50.700 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: You're worth it. 02:56:50.700 --> 02:56:52.200 align:middle line:84% Every minute of it, it was worth it. 02:56:52.200 --> 02:56:53.420 align:middle line:90% You'll be glad to have it. 02:56:53.420 --> 02:56:53.820 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Good. 02:56:53.820 --> 02:56:54.200 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 02:56:54.200 --> 02:56:55.283 align:middle line:90% MARILYN SOMERS: Thank you. 02:56:55.283 --> 02:56:56.650 align:middle line:90% WARD WINER: Thank you. 02:56:56.650 --> 03:01:01.000 align:middle line:90%