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>> This is a living history interview with John Bell class of 1951 conducted by Marilyn summers on September the 19th of the year 2001 we are at his home in Atlanta Georgia the subject of our interview today of his life in general his experiences with Georgia Tech Mr Bill thank you so much for letting us come visit you here in here mostly how we're happy to be here today and looking forward to hearing your whole story so tell me where to begin.

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Well it began I guess I'm a native Atlanta and. 4th generation that Lenny and my wife where is planned that is see my wife is a 5th generation Atlanta so our families have been in Atlanta for many many years so we are truly what you call ladies to be you are from way back you were born when October the 20th 1929 and we're part of that limits your parents live in they lived in the bucket area so you were born in back St Joseph's Hospital actually to be specific the Be specific and tell me about your dad went to do for well he was in the insurance business and.

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His death He was retired but prior to that had worked for the better is administration and he had been born in in the black an area where in the Atlanta area rather than in sounds right. And his father before that in his father before that well actually was it jumps over to his mother's side of the family as far as being here the longest time right so not necessarily bells in one.

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Chrissy Inman name is very famous for that are you related to Samuel Inman or any of those and yes Ok fine so they were well established in Atlanta a long long time passed. Through his relatives have gotten to know or did you know any of those not too many of them the.

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The 1st 10 months Kamya following the War Between the States and were from East Tennessee and Confederates and that was a union area and so they had their lands and properties all confiscated and came to Atlanta to start a new life and were turned out to be highly successful Thank you.

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For joining. The growing up time. Well actually I grew up in the in the. 10th Street area midtown and I went to want to talk how the old clock out which is now part of Georgia Tech the school building that was the was the elementary school in junior high school was right then what is now it's within sight of the expressway on the right as you go to.

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That it was a room entry it was probably junior high at the time I let me change that it was junior high that I went there because I actually went to 10th Street grama **** Ok there we go there we go and then it was to O'Keefe junior high school there was a very very bright line.

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And then when I. Went to went to Maris the back with the military school down on Ivy Street at that time it was because of the military it was fully military it was all boys and we we had the so-called bellhop uniforms like g.m.a. had in those days we were the blue military uniforms full military.

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That a boarding school no it was such strictly that scale. Now let's go back to elementary school when you started going to go you were you were in only child you took correct your brother's drive did you take to school right off the bat did you like going to so I enjoyed school was no problem so your school experience with positive like going to school didn't have any problem with it were you raised on the assumption that you would go to college yes yes and your parents made a decision after junior high to send you to marriage Well my parents were divorced actually and my mother was I felt like that being a single mother that her son needed a little more.

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Discipline to go and find the little military for military training with her it couldn't hurt it does it hurt no good to her was a happy experience a lot of fun I enjoyed it thoroughly I was not I'm not Catholic and you know our graduating class the Protestants and Jewish state seniors outnumber the Catholics in those days so.

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It was a lot of fun for people going there right. Into the role if you like they did have football teams but being a small **** never really competed at a high level always got beat by tech convoys high here in Atlanta and. With the focus discipline that right now it seems to be that that would have been a pretty good preparation for going to Georgia Tech then it was.

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I felt like it was we had some very strict teachers and some very. Very tough Most are more priest and they were dedicated teachers. Actually the. Things like English and literature are so beat into me that tech was a breeze as far as though subjects were concerned but the things like mathematics that I had made great grades and I had a terrible struggle when I got to take office it just.

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Wasn't on the same level as the as a so called studies some How did you. Well. My family had a background of engineering my grandfather and my great grandfather were textile engineers and my mother had in her mind I think from the time I was a ball and that I was going to be an engineer and in fact it was so ingrained that when I registered it I read stayed in textile engineering and during my freshman year I realized how much chemistry was involved in textile engineering and made the change to civil engineering.

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It was kind of like the free predetermine thing right right right and the only other colleges I considered were the Citadel in Charleston South Carolina because my grandfather had graduated from the settle in mechanical engineering and. He died though it aged 26 on there and you him and.

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The other one was university the south Swanny fiscal. **** So those were the other ones it was local and I was. Poland thought up in tech was the best place to go and repeal it had some of. Your mother want to go there any youngsters that you granny with their world are going to take yes quite a number so you're going to know folks there right on you knew several from several from the merest senior class I actually want to text for 5 Can't you ever been to the campus on that one too far from where they are so yes I had been to you know I had been to the campus I had only occasion attended some football games and all that over there you knew about the jackets and you knew about well yes knew all about it so we went to the real drastic thing for you to come to college you know a continuation of the discipline.

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Well it was probably a lot less attack than there was an American I think. Except for some kids for some because it was the 1st taste of them do you remember the 1st 2 days the 1st experience. With the transition for you Well I think it was a kind of a rude shock to some extent because they had they had this.

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Aptitude and they got a Slayer early in the morning and we took aptitude test for probably 8 hours and then when he might break for lunch I mean they just sat there and you took one series of test after another to find out where your skills were and.

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And it was tremendously crowded and that was one day when they had the general orientation in the old gym and they gave us the problem which you've heard many times the statement we've got too many students gentleman and you know the one on your right here at the end of the of our the one on your left you won't be and so we got that kind of welcome to that plus at that time I found out afterwards they were grading on the curve system to get rid of student and they actually you know you could make a c. if you were in the bottom of the curve you got an f. And so that's how they cleared people out curb system and they went on for 2 or 3 at least the 1st 2 years I was a you want to graded on the curves and feel like you were somebody really really valuable that you were just a survivor that was the name of the game.

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Usually classes and you said you're only good in what you know that was no problem to me my problems were in geometry and all those type of that because it had it had not I had not had the foundation in in those in mathematics that I needed. Took some courses a couple of times.

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That any teachers from that period of time come to your mind this 1st year to not really the 1st year I think many most of the teachers I tend to remember were actually after I got into the civil engineering school and that side of it I remember them much more than I do the 1st year but the 1st year generally speaking it was survival you said clearly it wasn't like you.

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That's correct I do remember one particular case that. Was in it was a mathematics course and I can't tell you which one it was but I had written the. Streetcar back home and had an exam the next day and could not find my math book and I was just panicked so I went back to my last class which would have been in the mathematics building and if was probably 6 or 7 in the evening and I was trying to rummage through and see if I'd left my book in the classroom or dropped it and the head of the department and I cannot recall that man's name.

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Challenge me wonder what I was doing in the building so late not told him I said you know I. Got an exam tomorrow I can't find my book and I don't know half of what I'm supposed to know and I just told him you know I'm panic I said I got to do some I got to get that book and he said worst case situation all into one which is what he did then he took me into his office what don't you understand and.

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I guess he spent 2 and a half out of his time tutoring me on what I didn't understand and his reputation was one of the toughest meanest people in that thing in. Why he suddenly took pity on this poor freshman I'll never know but he did and he too did me and I passed the test and for the rest of time I was that if I'd ever see him we chat and became friends you know even though I was majoring in mathematics but he kind of remembered me is that panicky kid that needed some help so bad that he come back to school and I think the fact that I'd taken the time and effort get back on a streak on gum and then walk 10 or 12 blocks to get back to the building to try to find my book was.

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But it was you know it was just predestined I guess being a good Presbyterian I'll use that word because I got back home and I found my book it was at home the whole time. I've gone into well it turned out to be for a great purpose but I did not know you know I dismissed my play but man I'm trying to remember how I know that I remember Smith I'm not sure it was him or the time frame but he was one of the he was the the assistant hitter he had but you know and but he had a terrible reputation I mean he was supposed to be just meanness anything you know but you with looking at him but.

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It was really want. Absolutely. You were able to make money. To get me back with. Yeah yeah yeah mainly my problems that were. Physics I hated physics. All finally physics and math I finally got you know back up to run in speed and I you know made my way through calculus and all that differential in a row and so I didn't have that much trouble with that.

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So quickly you got some confidence Well yeah you know there's the found out quickly to play collectives and you know the ones that where I had a choice I would go back to the things like literature and growing up all the way through high school I had a terrible stammering problem and stammered very very badly and which.

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I finally overcame with the help of one of the priests that marriage to. Spent hours and weeks and months working with me to get me over the. Stammering problem that I had and so I would deliberately then expose myself to things not all the public speaking courses they had it just simply to rebuild all of that and found those were very simple and easy and in the literature classes were simple.

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Took some psychology classes in. Love to debate the professor one particular case. My junior year was an elective in he. Everything he said I disagreed with and I felt like I had real good reasons for it but I thought he was way out in left field and finally about a less than halfway through he called paid me stay after class one day and I thought well are we going to really have it in there and he made me a deal and I won't I can't remember his name and I'm sure it's not on the records he said you know I'll make a deal with you you know I said what's that he said If you'll stop coming to my class I'll give you no.

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And I said well you know I can I count on you and he said yes you can come back the last week and he said I'll show you your book but he said you know if you'll just go away and leave me in my place alone I'll give you no you know I said I think you've got a deal so I didn't go back to that class anymore and I got in a I'm sure I'm.

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Strictly off the record just in a royal pain Well I don't know he just wasn't very on the ball to me and so I didn't hesitate to telling if your time that you were there did you ever come across gloomily as every professor raining so I remember the name I could not visualizing now but I know are you a myth that I wasn't sure the.

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The name as for me he was he was quite well known professor merely. As you've got your your confidence under you start getting involved in. The blue print to me do things of that or tell me about your interest in running if it came easy from your earlier trade Well it was easy it was something I enjoyed and that's why I mentioned being a looking at every penny I got paid.

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That was a paycheck that came from being a reporter on the technique and a reporter you know and on the blueprint you actually got a small paycheck and the higher you got up in the Harkey the more money you got so it wasn't much but you know it all the same widget to work up a coffee so I had a dual incentive you know I enjoyed it and I found out you get paid for one so that made it even better.

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Well I enjoyed it. I wound up associate it with a technique in. Forgot what I did on the blueprint exactly and always on staff but I can't tell you how well I got any editorial job and I used to write it sort of for the technique. Take. A good bit.

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Because in those days part of my responsibility on the technique was to go proof the technique and that was a print shop down around 5 points and not having transportation in those days I had to get on the streetcar and go down to about 8 or 9 o'clock and stay all midnight I want to clock proofing and in those days it was hot lead type setting and you had to sit there they would give you a copy off but off the lead and you'd sit they and mock it for us you know and then take care of all the typos and misspelled words and didn't have any spell check or anything like that so you just said sit there which is been revival to me because I can take a document and you know scan it and things jump out at me that I misspelled are not good English usage and all that So from a technical standpoint in engineering it was a tremendous basic training to deaf to do that but I've spent many a night down there proofing the hard lead print having to redo lines and that type thing you know for hours now and that along with the.

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Trying to stay in school to pass and then having a few outside jobs gonna keep you busy spirited. Away from the good Metropolis not not I won't say that title a but and I did try to work a lot of that in. The games and went to all the games want the most the basketball game so football was really the thing I enjoyed watching the most.

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When you were coming into. Your right and in fact it was after I got out that I finally quit you know getting season tickets after a number of years because I seem to get worse and worse before Bobby finally retired and you know I never really got back to going full time but that time it was important part of your life yes absolutely and I was member for turning in for a turn to always try to get seats together and with our dates when you see new god they take it's put proud of that you know we try to stick together as a group and it was a lot of fun one of the cars socially which is.

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To. Return well living a living off campus it was mainly the fraternity activities that I took part in never lived in the fraternity house or on the campus but you know I would commute back and forth when there were some came up or I'd bum a ride with some of my fraternity brothers it did happen lucky enough to own an automobile and want a whole lot of back in the day because you go to the big.

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Dance Yes. Well I don't recall a whole lot about him tell you the truth I know that when they did have the big dances in. I know I can try to think back I should have looked at my tech and you know the refresh my mind on some of this but I do remember being the civil engineering school student council representative at one time so I got in student government a little bit.

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Even in those days and I'm sure there was so much politics it got kind of disgusting to an engineer type like me but I was in the civil engineering student council rep at one point. You realize. That you were in the right place I'm going to marry Ok.

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Career it was a struggle and I'll tell you the funny part of it and that is that. After we graduated and I had my diploma we were sitting around the fraternity house the next day and one of my fraternity brothers said you know he said I never did go see what my aptitude tests were that 1st day that we came here and I said you know I never did either and he said well let's go to the dean's office and see and we walked over there and I think it was dangerous and I think our one of I think I was doing Griffin.

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Someone asked what do you want and we said well we just read way but we would like to know what our aptitude test look like back when we were freshman and my fraternity brother had. 789000 tents 10 being the highest and all the technical skills and his literature skills and all were down the tubes and threes mine were reversed.

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In fact the dean told me he said you know if you'd come in his freshman would have taught you to go to University geology I said No wonder I had such a hard time getting out of this place. So my aptitude was I think I had a hard struggle but I was determined and family that engineering background that's what I want to be and I will go into it it's amazing they spent all that time in the money giving that test and then never me and they never and I never contacted me back about it and I forgot about it I forgot about it one you know I was by that time I was trying to pass everything and so I didn't have time to go to the dean's office find out how well I'd done so I wanted a lot already I'm on a jury that I found out I should have been.

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Doing all right well I think it was great. Because I think that if nothing else it gives you such a foundation and logical thinking and how to do things step by step in detail and so I know I recommend anybody and everybody that I talk to that they get a technical education simply as a background they can go from there to anything they want to do medicine or whatever you got a good base background in technic technology and really getting that was something that was an education for you had the need to learn that's right it turned out to be all right it worked Ok Did you date when you were in.

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So you know why did you have any money so you couldn't Well you know I was always double dating in that type thing and looking for somebody that had an automobile that was willing to double that and go pick up your date as well this is well and so it was yeah you know we dated all.

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Sometimes where they did some Agnes got girls and sometimes it was just you know people that we know because being a native and Latin I've had more contacts in a lot of my for timers and that also helped because if I needed a date I could usually find them one that got me transportation you boys how are you know one of these women.

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Just from you know neighborhoods and those type of situations because some people would think that this descriptor side well actually we had right across the campus from us was a Sacred Hearts girls Catholic school so we knew those girls before you got to tell and then there were also you know the contacts that you know there was a side to me You.

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Know I thought I had a fairly good time and marriage we kept the professors on and the priest too on the edge of their seats all the time and we had enough in fact that some of the things got me in trouble with some of the things I learned in marriage.

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You never really got to. Know but we we've all come to be ready. Not it not not as an individual but you know opportunity used to get a little attention 3 obviously. We. But we were we were great on practical jokes on each other and. One of the funniest ones was in the chemistry of the old fashioned chemistry room you know the stacked seats that went with clear to the ceiling and you had the steps that came down in the but what up front and.

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We had been out partying on Friday night and this was an 8 o'clock chemistry lecture small and so there were about 8 of us in the fraternity that were freshman or sophomore to whatever was in so we got on the very top rope to get out of sight and sound you know up there hopefully go sleep and the professor was just lecturing away in.

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One of my fraternity brothers points me and hatched this plot which was wonderful. Because one of our brothers was deeply asleep and so it was my job to punch him in the ribs and I just said Don the professor said Put number 10 on the board so he was dead asleep he jumped up in the middle of the lecture grabbed his book worked his way out to the island with thundering down those would steps right up to the black bowl in the professor was trying to lecture and watch him at the same time and he ran walked up the **** one in He'd been impressive in writing but there was a little blank spot so he took a piece chutney put number 10 up there and the professor says what in the hell are you doing and he said is any damn fool who can say I'm putting number 10 on the board.

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And he got walked to the door one thrown out and he was waiting for us when we broke up glass but I mean that was typical of some of the things that we do. Another one that I remember with greatly because it was in a physics class and not in life physics plazas anyway and.

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We were having an exam and it was the honor system ultimate seats alternate rows with about 10 professors to make sure you didn't have any crib sheets on your wrist or on the slide rule you were using that good honest and. About halfway through the class if you've heard this before stop me but halfway through the class one of the guys taking the class taking the exam stood up to exam papers and ripped it into confetti threw it up in the air and he said obviously what you have uncovered during the year you've covered on this test and he walked out the door and so that stopped the test the professor grabbed his roll book he was going to find the culprit and he called a roll and everybody answered and that he said somebody is covering for somebody so he says they call you names stand up every time you call a name somebody stood up and he had the other professors walking around and they had it by stood out.

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And he never did figure out what was going on when I got out of class these guys were outside just in convulsions and I said tell me what on and they said he was a fraternity brother he wasn't taking the coast. So naturally he wasn't on a roll or anything else once because he was a plan he told in the paper up thrown it in the air and it was the negative was next week but we got our exam finally and it had been changed so it wasn't what I'd started with but those were the kind of things that.

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Got us in trouble periodically. For the professors if we were to well you know they say one funny at the point but I'm sure they probably look back on it and from reminisce to it some of the Wild Things and. So when you look back at that we even though you worked hard you did a good time I thoroughly enjoyed it you maximize the variance of.

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If you were to read towards the end of your senior year in you were clean to become a civil engineer. By the way you're going to take your career to yes I had planned to one of the things that I'd always been in that in on the side was archaeology and I hope to combine civil engineering with some archaeological work I knew I couldn't make a living as an archaeologist I just didn't pay enough money and engineering did what the job market like and.

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There were quite a number of companies interviewing. Some interviews Yes had a number of interviews and I had 2 or 3 job offers and I was able to select the one that I finally went with. What were they looking for. Depending on the company. Construction county that I actually want to work for this field engineer was looking for Field Engineers engineers to go out and do engineering on new buildings in new projects and things of that nature it was after the time with archaeology for you.

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Well that was and I hope to go to South America or someplace like that on the job and. Alia and that would be I did in my spare time I could get tied into something like archaeology in an instant point on that just there war I think 8 of us in our fraternity and after that graduated same time 8 or 10 and we were sitting around a fraternity house after graduation and one of them for some reason came up and said How many of you now that you've got to agree.

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That engineering was your 1st choice of what you really would like to do in life and out of the 10 there was one that said he would have been an engineer another one would have been a professional musician this one would have been that and the whole reason was economics.

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We you know a lot of us came to because tech was a school that you could go through get a degree and and look pathway forward earning a decent living and some of these other things we're not paying are too chancy and so it was an interesting and shifting study to find out what people you know there was a common ground between you that's right and yet it turned out to be you if you survive to this point in time it turned out to be the right Absolutely and all of these people that would have been musicians and what have you as far as I know all very successful as engineers and they did that on the side I just always be an avocation right I just never got to be an archaeologist on the side busy.

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Place an office. Yes did you ever come across the a do you know you sweat shirt in your mind. And even after I got out of tech you know if I decide I want to at least see what the market looked like I used to you know periodically subtribe the alarm that placement bulletin and you know look it over and see if I thought I was doing as well as what was in there and yeah you know early early career you know in your early career before you really settled in you would use that did you in your luckily or did you have enough to do the other things the interviews that were conducted when I was a senior that they came in and they had several days with the people there and depending on what your specialty was you know there were areas where people were looking strictly for civil engineers a mechanic only knew when you signed up and they looked at your background and then you know you either.

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You know went for the interview or so it was I think another great story was the time that. Our can't recall which for charity started but wound up with the essays which are next door neighbor to the Delta top Delta turned the I belong to and. Alumni had had a little too much partying and he showed up at the house with this goat in tow and then he disappeared and the goat was still in the turn to have and it was.

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Real strong smelly terrible and about 2 am they carried the goat across the street opened the door to the s.a.a. house and just shove the goat in and shut the door behind them and then stood back to see what was going to happen and they alerted a few of the other fraternities that they might want to see what was going on and I would guess about 2 33 o'clock looks like every light in the essay house came on and the goat had made its way up to the 2nd floor and was just older rising the whole house and they were trying to get the goat out and the goat didn't want to come back down the steps so they were having a terrible time I spent a lot of everybody else off return 0 So that's that's another story I recall from.

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Go to mass God No this was no this wasn't a night to go that was new for some this this kind of drunken alarm not for this returned it just showing up with. A lead and brought him into the house that I drank or so left him and that's when they put him in the essay By the god didn't even have to stay awake at night I mean we could all if we could always find something to do I think my side study.

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Too too funny my goodness let's go back to your coming to your senior year no you're ready to graduate you had some job interview 2 or 3 you made up your mind. America after a while didn't get a good job offer in South America you had to be practical you needed the income right we were coming we were still in the Korean crisis correct not yet we were still in the Korean War We were fortunate enough to have a deferment.

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Right. So that you didn't you had to worry about when you were going to get called at least you were going to graduate right do you remember graduation where it was how you are it was held in the stadium in the right that was a good bit and it was held in the stadium.

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Great so you did your momma good to come see you yes sir to know she had her into the air to see if you had our engineer though she is an originator. And how much time on before you started work. Not much probably not more into a 3 day is that right just time to pack the job was in Texas so I.

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Had managed to get a call about it and so I packed my belongings and headed for Houston Texas had you ever been there not Texas this is why you were going off into another adventure with absolutely no idea where you were going to. Take you had to or just take on your.

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Absolutely and how did that job turn it was fun spend about a week in Houston and then they assigned me to a construction project in Orange Texas which was on the Louisiana line and once I got into the town there was a large Dupont facility there and I actually found another.

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Job just to class a 51 dredge it working at the Dupont plant so we got reacquainted and there were some engineers from the University of Kentucky and various other companies and schools that come to work there and you and we all kind of knew so we kind of banded together and as opposed to life without a social life right off the bat with the engineers one from tech in fact he wound up marrying one of the girls in orange before we ever left there but the rest the rest of them were from Texas and some from Texas Kentucky and Georgia primarily once I knew.

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About a year about a year. Money. Yes What happened was the. The. Time keeper was also an engineer on that job that was a building public housing and. Was very a lot job potman project that we were building in Orange Texas and. He was married I was still single and he had arranged an interview to with the Dupont to go to be considered for an engineering job it's about a river project in Aiken South Carolina and.

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Not having anything to do he wanted off I wanted to ride into Houston with he and his wife and then after he had his interview go eat somewhere and then come back it was about 50 miles away from where we were working and not have anything else but do I said yeah sounds good get a little different because all they had in this town we worked in were.

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Country chicken fried steak sly column which was just battered piece of meat and I got tired of that after a while and so you know the thought of getting a meal in a big town sounded pretty good so I wrote in with them and his wife want to do something in go somewhere else while he was interviewing So I went up and just sat in the waiting room while they were interviewing my my friend from the job and.

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One of the end of us walked out and said Are you waiting for an interview and I said No I said I'm just here with somebody that is interviewing and he said what's your background I said Well civil engineer from Georgia Tech and he says Come with me so I went in and I wound up getting interview I got hired my buddy didn't.

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So he was still in taxes when I left to come to work for the Savannah at the Savannah River project with the Major not. Exactly so I picked up and moved back to back in went to live in Augusta Georgia just where I want it within and with interesting very much enjoyed the technology and learning about nuclear energy in the area I was in was the $200.00 f. area at Savannah River and that was the chemical separation where they actually separated.

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Plutonium from the waste products and my particular job was in putting in the pipelines that transported the waste material to the permanent storage facilities and pipelines where my major construction project and they are and we were dealing with some very very highly radioactive material that wasn't in operation but it would be once the plant when it was completed dealing with things that I was told at that time which I have no reason to doubt were you know 20000 year half life which So in 20000 years the level radiation only decayed 50 percent so that going that other 25 tremendous tremendous and so these work from stainless steel pipes.

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At least a quarter of a half an inch in thickness had to be 100 percent x. right every well had to be 100 percent x. ray to make sure there was no leakage into the ground in this material so it's a very interesting interesting project. If you think you know me as well right.

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Then I came back to Atlanta and from Augusta and was considering. Taking an overseas job finally and. Looking at a climate opportunity in Iceland on a construction project it was interesting because it was real good money and tax free at that time you didn't have to pay us taxes on it.

[00:40:20]
And because of the working conditions you got a great deal of time off with the ability to to or Europe and all of that during your time also it was on the side like a great job and that's what I was really kind of aiming toward until I got distracted and.

[00:40:40]
Yeah. Well I had a cousin that had. Been after me for years to meet her best friend and I had studiously avoided meeting her best friend for a number of years and she found out I was back in town and having lunch Sunday dinner a lunch rather than a restaurant and tracked me down and had me pay aged at this restaurant and got me on the telephone and told me that her good friend did not have a ride home and she was expecting me to come out and take her home because she didn't have transportation and I got talked into it.

[00:41:22]
And so I did and I met my wife to be and 6 months later she and I were married so it was it was it was it was all right rapid thing and she at that point was employed by the c.d.c. doing medical research and she was seriously considering a job with the Army in Germany to do medical research so had we not met I might have been in Iceland and she'd been in Germany and but one that we got married and one of us left.

[00:41:52]
I've been in Atlanta basically ever since so you went to mit. Started courting her then you have to look for another job right there where I worked for work for an architectural company and then I worked for some. Civil engineering company and then. Was approached by. A friend who said that you had some contacts with the Southern Bell Telephone Company and they were looking for engineers and would I be interested in talking so I went down and interviewed and was offered a job with them and I spent about 4 or 5 years with a telephone company in engineering and then from there you involved get married right we got married I'm sure that back in 1953 So with this year we are but see what 48 years we've been married and obviously this was the right decision right absolutely having killed each other yet.

[00:43:00]
Just for about less than a year because I thought her work was too hazardous I wonder if it could have been you know she was and I want to highly contagious labs out there and I just felt like it was unsafe and stayed after and. Never did tell what all I was doing it was about twice it's not safe that's what she was doing but I did get her to quit to protect her got to quit.

[00:43:30]
After the telephone company. I had done some construction work in Atlanta before I went to work for the telephone company and the one of some of the work I'd done was construction projects that lucky day aircraft and they started a nuclear research program of their own Lucky did and one of these engineers called me and said we're looking for engineers who been have construction at the nuclear facilities we do business and come in and a viewing that was right so you know I jumped at the opportunity because I hadn't thoroughly enjoyed my introduction to the nuclear work at Savannah River so I did interview and I was hired at Lockheed in wound up spending 16 years at Lockheed but not all in nuclear because that they used out after about 5 or 6 years but I was in the nuclear part of it Lockheed had a research facility up in Dolphin Cannie up in the mountains of north Georgia and we had some 10 or 11000 acres up there and I wound up as plant engineer eventually up there.

[00:44:46]
At the nuclear labs different sort of like. Well the intent the intent when it was started was actually a nuclear powered aircraft recently and thinking about putting a reactor in a big plane and flying it however the at that time there was not a craft large enough. To handle the weight of a nuclear reactor as a propulsion plant but our job was to perfect the components that would go into a nuclear Act right after the crash but then safety people said what if it crashed in the middle of the land and so that that kind of ended that program and from there we went well into.

[00:45:33]
Do research on various. Spacecraft and things of that nature one of the things that I did find interesting and during that period I never got to know him well but was in several meetings with burn of on Braun the space scientists from Germany in his study if we at that time were looking at projects like the rift reactor in flight which they were looking at taking that same technology and applying it to a missile or rocket primarily research rockets and again they got after we got into it pretty deeply they decided what if we have to bolt it over take Canada and blow up a missile with a reactor in it so that got to stop that and we went on the research programs with the Army medical people the armored Cold War doing nucleotide radiation testing very very very very regular totally exact way and in fact the nuclear facility we had could never be duplicated today because it was if you remember looking in the newspaper a normal nuclear power plant you know it's tremendously encased in these concrete domes.

[00:46:47]
A reactor was in a pool of water on an elevator in a metal building and we raised it up out of the out of the totally and shielded in a valley in the radiated everything within a line of sight and I'm probably the only person in the world that's ever been in the market trying to buy back crab grass seed because the only thing that would grow in the radiation area was crab grass and I'm out trying to buy crab grass seed all over the United States and nobody thinks I'm serious.

[00:47:16]
So it was quite an interesting from just some of the women. Because just which is. What we had nothing and our control building was a 2 story building 10 feet underground. And we had we had 300 foot tower which was very sensitive listening devices if we could hear an airplane we had to shut it down to keep from radiating people up in the airplane.

[00:47:44]
So it was you couldn't do that today. Well thank goodness you well you know and you had the interesting things like come out from that we had one to the we pressed the button after a long series of test we had we had our own internal road system and we would put these test components that would actually operate on a direct cause and back on the end to right up against the reactor and then see what the radiation did to the electronics in the hydraulics and all that type thing and after we got through with our tests that are on some number of days maybe a week or more they pressed the button for the reactor to go back down in the water and it wouldn't go.

[00:48:27]
It had locked in the up position the mechanism locked so among the show us I had to take Mom in and we had to disassemble. The relief mechanism actually hugging this the metal around the reactor and we in 59 seconds got a year's worth of radiation on a basis of a 1960 safety so the radiation safety today would be you know on believable big difference probably in that but my whole crew when I went in 1st which was my crew was to see what situation was writing it quite all my job done because I was looking around the building trying to tell them what they would find when they went into got to reassure them and so I didn't get all the boats I was supposed to solve but I was too busy looking so I could go back out in tell them you know it's dead silence you're not going to feel anything you know don't say anything you just ready to leave and go in and do your job and.

[00:49:31]
Hall and they blew when you hit the area running in and they blew it when you were you know with enough time for you to get back and still be that just the 59 seconds so it was. Literally Yeah yeah it would you know the exposure was limited run into this right exactly 15 seconds gave you a year's worth the radiation then what you have you were taking the risk of having that years work.

[00:49:56]
That's right and then I'm in refuse they all you know everyone went Sure then great. And is there any way of knowing with the well we all had we all had radiation dose that would show the amount of radiation we got and we were told not to take any you know don't get your teeth x. rays for the next 12 months or anything don't take chest x. rays don't add to what you've already got routine.

[00:50:23]
And that was the that was the combination of their concerns as well they want to make sure you know don't do any more you know don't get any more and that was the main part of it at that time that was done not to be life threatening No no it wasn't.

[00:50:40]
In a obviously didn't I'm still here it was a long time ago. These people want to tell the story I said Somebody blew it not you but. You look like the movie. My so you're always going over there but that was the kind of things I didn't tell my wife about when I was trying to get her to quit her job and I.

[00:51:02]
Didn't tell her that for about 1520 years after. Which Well no she knows and I thought finally confessed some of the crazy things that I did but I just didn't want to have to listen to my wife tell me what a flu. After my. Surgery No I have to Lockheed I went to work for a major development company here in Atlanta called the landmark right and they were the primary developer of the buildings out around all Side Hospital.

[00:51:36]
All of the office buildings out there and watch a number of them went back to more conventional more conventional I was vice president in charge of operations and with the company and handled all the maintenance of all the buildings with a 1000000 square feet or so of office space and response for the air conditioning and that type of thing Eventually I wound up.

[00:51:58]
Taking all thought of the construction of new buildings and for that period time that about 8 years or you were there right. Then I sighed again with going to business for my. Regular time well I did I just felt like you know. I was tired of having a ball.

[00:52:21]
Time Yeah I had you know I always felt like I got a new better what I wanted to do than with my Boston you know and. Close my wife's reaction was you know you wait until you're 50 years old decide to quit a good job and good business for yourself that you lost your mind the last minute I got that kind of routine but we did and we were together on it and so I went into the primarily construction management.

[00:52:52]
Managing projects for corporations in. The in. Style I did have a property management company as well as you know managing office buildings and looking after all that type of thing so I had 2 things going really I had a property management company at one time with a partner and then I had my own business which was.

[00:53:16]
Construction management and wound up in consulting in engineering of that time if I were for. A job right in fact one of the largest plants I had unwound probably the last. 7 or 8 years full time with them as a consultant. What I did with them I'll still have a facade my engineering degree I have a job to real estate brokers license and so this particular company said you know I had known them and done some work with them and they said.

[00:53:58]
Why don't we just turn everything over to you that would be our desire you go find this piece of property as a broker. Get it you know where we can buy it have a building design follow us by knock it and then get it built and give us the key that's what we'd like you to follow.

[00:54:17]
Through So that's what I did and then it went from there to other companies but then the Eventually that company called me back and said Do you have any time at that time I was still doing things other consulting and had the property management business and I thought well I could try to work something in a venture that I got rid of my property management company and when I did that they said you know we've got more work can you take that it wound up an ideal situation for me in that.

[00:54:52]
They provided me an office in their corporate headquarters they provided me a secretary an administrative assistant and I had no overhead whatsoever and I was a paid consultant. So I could come you know more or less whenever I need to go to sleep that's as good as it's right so that's what I did about the last 7 or 8 years and.

[00:55:15]
Negotiated primarily I did some engineering consulting for them not in a design capacity but in what they should do that type of thing advice and primarily on negotiated major real estate leasing agreements with them got into that side I actually worked with and through the legal department of the call peroration in.

[00:55:40]
Negotiated with landlords. Major leases in the United States and some in Canada and got was some slight involvement in the United Kingdom Great Britain which was learning a new terminology and you'll eat your words and all of that but. I didn't have to do too much travelling but most of it was done by telephone and.

[00:56:06]
So you learn people's personalities and what they're saying and what they're not saying I will tell them about tone of all I say. And in there was a lot of fun negotiating I thoroughly enjoyed the give and take of negotiating it's like a very satisfying your 1st of your career Yeah I enjoyed it and the interesting thing was that the toughest people I had to negotiate were women law yes.

[00:56:33]
That is an interesting observation earlier. Women lawyer hardest ones to make a deal will be in work we can we can relate this back to the arguments used to get the relief. Well I don't mind that you know they weren't that bad it's just that I think that a lot of these particular the younger women lawyers.

[00:56:55]
Felt if they conceded anything they were they were you know. Losing they would move and so it was tougher to make them agree to something that would be a man or some allow you have more estate that's right and so generally the way I broke through was humor I could generally find something they said that I could turn on if I could get them to get ones going out and then we went home for your.

[00:57:26]
E-mail Tell me about some of your other. Besides your illustrious career you have a lot of activity hard to retire from work because so many of you well we enjoyed a lot of things really and. One of our hobbies is genealogy my wife and I both family genealogist and I've been researching our family for over 40 years and before the internet even before the Internet and that's been a big help well it really has I'd say it's thinner do Smita people even we last year I had a.

[00:58:01]
Branch of the family that I'd given up work on and put a query on the internet and got a contact from mine. A lady in North Carolina who. Was descendant from my ancestor and had done a great deal of work on it and well and coming over to our home and North Carolina and having lunch and swapping genealogy so we found a long lost cousin delightful couple he went to Notre Dame her husband and he and I reminisced about the Tech students throwing dead fish at the Notre Dame student ball games and it did happen and have more than once because they said it happened to a younger brother and that was after I got out of tech and I know I was there when we threw fish out I'm so so he remember that with fondness and I thought and you know that was the only **** that I routinely cheered against that if anybody could beat Notre Dame I was just tickled to death because the way they used to embarrassed and so he and I got had a lot of conversation when his wife and I were talking family history he and I were talking Notre Dame and Georgia Tech so so we had a great.

[00:59:08]
Deal you do you know do you find that people are willing to share. Really is now I mean people are just really eager I keep queries posted on some of the lines I'm not familiar with I don't have all the information I'd like in. I generally get more questions and I get answers more people contact me looking to see what I can tell them than than give me information but.

[00:59:34]
I send it out and give them whatever I can I give them new leads or whatever it's a lot of fun it's a detective story you you find one little bit of information here and then you you file it away and you might not come back to it for 10 years and then suddenly some will appear that says i'll that to explain so that you have a good organization I've got a library got a lot of the files files before the Internet and then of course I've been trying to put most of the things into one of these software packages Family Tree Maker so I get at least a printout of things that.

[01:00:08]
Other people might want that I can send in that place like a spirit so we enjoy that in as far as other activities. You belong to an interesting group for the bar instead of Atlanta that's that's that's a group that was formed in 1896 here in Atlanta it's probably one of the best kept secrets in Atlanta.

[01:00:32]
Consist of a maximum of $100.00 male members there are no women members in the Atlanta Bristol However the international Burns club president is a woman so we're a renegade but. Purpose. The purpose is literature it is based on the poetry of Robert Burns and this particular club here in Atlanta as I say was founded in 1906 it completed in 1009 year off on my dates the only replica of Robert Burns is home that exists outside of Scotland and it is here in Atlanta in the Grant Park area and the building is used once a month for a covered dish Wednesday night supper the 1st Wednesday night of each month.

[01:01:23]
Yes and it's on the national as well as state and national historical registers. It's interesting in that the founding president was Joseph Jacobs a Jewish Austrian Jew who ran. The Jacobs drugstore chain here in Atlanta. He was the founding president the bar and sly and we have had about 6 or 8 governance that have been members of the club Senator Richard Russell was a member of the club.

[01:01:53]
When you meet monthly basis covered should have a speaker guest speaker who could be soliciting Sibley's been out there and spoke before her death. Zell Miller came when he was lieutenant governor and talked about the. Southern mountain dialect which goes back to the Scottish Highlands and they're speaking of their word each and where you made the comment that what sounds illiterate us today was perfectly good grammar back in the days that you know these people learned it's just held in the mountains because it being wiped out by television now they don't use the same Daleks but we have a speaker and then as another unusual thing of that is always a reading from Barnes by one of the members will read a section of Burns's poetry and the speaker there is always a responder some member of the club is given the task of standing up and he the con.

[01:02:48]
Flamini critiquing are criticizing the speaker and it's been really interesting when some of the speakers a lot of speakers are from the club because there's a lot of interest and there are a lot of good speakers we have some of the one chief of the appeals court the state of Georgia is a member and so you have some real real speakers and storytellers but occasionally we'll have some professor who comes in and he's a wall and he's tall before he comes that you will have a response and be prepared and sometimes I think they might get the feeling that but if you get your day well they will get skewered and I was president of that for 2 years and I learned.

[01:03:30]
I enjoy speaking and and do make talks to people and groups but I learned that in spreading the parents' love you painted a great big tall get on your chest and everybody all night long 3 dogs and it was up to you to see how many you could deflect and whether you could win the verbal battles that were being thrown at you all the time so it was a lot of fun and the wives were invited.

[01:03:53]
Never members but they were invited routinely The only time they have a burn is not done and where it is all made you all but number of the wives volunteer to serve the meal which is served there in the cottage they are listed on the program as serving wenches which sometimes like some of it was objected.

[01:04:16]
Some of the wives objected to but it's all in fun and everybody has a good time but that's was an activity I've enjoyed is the barn and it harkens back to technique days and years and my Scottish. And. Other interests is your church church absolutely we my wife and I belong to the associate reformed Presbyterian Church which is.

[01:04:45]
Well a Scottish nomination they were originally way back when part of this Church of Scotland however they had each one of the 2 groups the associate and the reformed group that came together to form the associates on a church each one had a problem with the Scottish Church and it was a Protestant church Protestant presidential.

[01:05:11]
One droop. The Church wanted all members to swear allegiance to the King of Scotland the government of Scotland and one Drew said no the only allegiance that we will swear will be to Jesus Christ and so they became separated from the church they said we will not swear allegiance to the king only to.

[01:05:36]
The lower the 2nd group in those times in Scotland when they were following the the the the land owner of the Layard of the land of the chief of the clan appointed the Minister for the local church they could be as brothers they could have no theological training or anything and the 2nd group of our great little fiery bunch of associate reform said no way.

[01:06:03]
If we cannot call the minister about show us we will not stay in that denomination So those 2 groups one that wouldn't swear allegiance to the king and one that said we got to have our own minister they form the associate reformed Presbyterian Church and. They will follow him to the 2 groups formed in Scotland and then in the.

[01:06:26]
Late sixties and early early $1700.00 they found there was enough common ground among those that came to the United States that they joined together here and became the associate reformed Presbyterian Church. Very high. To the extent that we do the current king and they are very proud of being this guy's background however we have people our minute last minister was Dagon how it that's hard to get to Scotland Scottish background so it's not all Scots naturally anymore but there's still the interest in it and playing with correcting ceremony was originally initiated by Dr Peter Marshall years ago and it was a way of reinforcing in Presbyterian churches and it's done not only in our associate reform but in in the Presbyterian Church us lay in the Presbyterian the nominations it is a special service where we play emphasis on the Scottish background and historical background of the church and.

[01:07:37]
It consist of special music. Him as from the old Scottish Psalter the. Use the Scottish confession rather than the Apostles Creed and the special can do times and that service sermon generally has something to do with. The religious background of the Scottish Church to put to suppose we have a pipe bands come into the sanctuary.

[01:08:08]
There's always Amazing Grace played with the pipes in the pipe all again. We in this particular service that we'll be having shortly in my church will have on the 78th Frazier regiment of foot which is. A group here in Atlanta that wears the uniform so the Scottish soldiers of the 17 hundreds and carries their.

[01:08:35]
Rifles so words. Pistols and everything else they are all Clinton rock Pistons pistols and it's an orange taught and so it's very very very colorful and then we have as part of the ceremony the we have the flags of Scotland. We have the American flag naturally and take leave in this particular time frame the American flag will be prominently displayed but there is a procession into the down the center aisle of the church with the pipes in the drums going and the 78th and all their uniforms come in and then then we have the members of the congregation we bar the top inbound us from the St Andrews society here in Atlanta and the burns.

[01:09:22]
And they are carried by members of the congregation or friends with the fan banners of each family life all are in and become part of it and. Always really is that it's a real colorful real moving ceremony and that. Real funny story about that one perking we did and this gentleman came up to me after the service and I found out later he was a retired colonel and tough as nails like on the side of the church members he came up to me and he said I want to tell you something.

[01:09:55]
That guests are he said I can't stand bagpipes he said I hate bagpipes and he says I have never liked saying in Amazing Grace can't stand him he said with all again and the pipes. And Amazing Grace he said I cried. And I'd prefer people to stand there with me they were just amazed you know and I think it really it really human is going to be very very well we have a we have a good time with it and the people thoroughly enjoy it and people we have to speak at the bridge club one night.

[01:10:36]
When Caldwell he was Chancellor of the university system you know it's Joe if you're at that time and he came out in part of his speech which is very humorous he said you know the only 2 kind of people in the world Scots and those that wish they weren't so those in our congregation are Scots they all become Scots on that Sunday where taught ins and lads so we have a big time and they participate.

[01:10:58]
Right it's all mountain we have the big games and that's the you know your group know that there is a separate association here some out Highland Games and then each day we have a large number by ns at one time we've had as many as 400 dramas and pipers on the field at one time.

[01:11:18]
Another funny story from that the general had a reporter out there one time and he will particle that I found very humorous He said that. He was blown up in all. And he was English no Scottish. And he said he said however he said when the when the bands played Scotland the Brave he was looking for some English one that hit and he said then when they played Dixie said it was a good thing it was a Yankee close today because he said between the playing of that on the pipes and all those drums he said you know it really affected him and he didn't have any the background but he did he felt like he ought to do some things a lot of our me as a result but that's a very old thing and we'll have you know all the clan tents and so you're doing a part right fact I'm responsible for the plan belt in Stone Mountain and have been for a number of years I'm a director of the plan Bell United States so on the board of directors of that plan family group you know your own party got my own talk and got my own kilt and.

[01:12:20]
Really has its own thought and how many of them are just talking about family killed or taught and. I mean it's about Sprouse and some 1000. Guys. Yes. And then they're called you know you have your main play and name and then they have what they call steps those are families that were small that associated with a lot of your clans for self-defense and protection and all that so you'll have those names that don't sound anything like the main name but are part of that group from Association.

[01:12:58]
It is that it is that if you have plenty to keep you are saying Absolutely yeah I just want to say well it is I often want to hire a found time to work. And I can understand that they really do many interests Well it's a lot of fun and it's been grand here your story I have enjoyed every last well I had anticipated you're going to be so entertaining with has been a wonderful start Thank you I appreciate the opportunity life well lived with much more ahead and.

[01:13:31]
We thank you very much for thank you time today enjoyed it and say Ok can we still do road. With the same Yeah yeah can we in 5 areas yeah.