Well built from family member and
city and regional planning.

And I was able to get
this only the stiff tell

it was out of the country so
closely along South.

South Carolina South America.

I have the privilege of introducing or
three speakers tonight.

This is why our series in
the school the city and

regional planning number of
books published recent years.

One of our celebrations of that is to
present Nation question and answer.

So our three speakers and
book authors I will mention.

You like Jon Stewart here
holding up guest zoning and

land use laws in Georgia by step.

Weissman and Skinner a little bit
of background on each of those.

First set Weissman.

Grew up in Philadelphia and

undergraduate degree from the University
of Pennsylvania in the city plant and

then went to the University of
North Carolina Chapel Hill for

a masters degree and happened over
unless the dean of the College of

Architecture Steve Branch and the chair of
city in regional planning Bruce to tell.

So he might have some very interesting
stories that would disqualify him for

their current positions.

And then attend Duke Law School.

Receive.

He says his favorite section of
the book is the history section.

Just at the beginning and actually I
read that over the last week it was.

Very interesting this resection
of late and low in Georgia but

also Georgian federal
constitutional law is obvious and

last time I heard actually
reduce our in football.

By not having it and there.

Does kayaking gardening and
it isn't an avid.

And I wish collector old
Southern pottery and

apparently played a leading role in
the exhibition actually refute permanent

collection of burning in the zenith
of art so set your first paper.

You know Skinner will be our second
speaker of the rough Nashville.

And if University of Georgia for

an undergraduate degree in
international business.

Work for a year or a law firm and
happens and is now a role

in the master a city in regional planning
program in Georgia Tech and the law.

Program in Georgia State University or
favorite sections of the book.

Constitutional challenges and
Georgia constitutional law or

really likes constitutional
law among her hobbies and

pastimes She's preparing
to run the Boston Marathon.

She has a green.

Under development.

She Red Cross Country and try University
of Georgia as a student athlete

and she does not believe that
student athletes should be paid.

She does not believe they
should unionize either so.

Interesting take on
the controversy of the fact.

Our third speaker urges
Mr Dunn Dillard to grew up.

At least in part in Decatur Georgia and
I understand attended Decatur High

there in Georgia went to
Firman as an undergraduate and

not have a chance to get his
undergraduate degree but

I understand you played football for
linebacker is that correct.

And then attended Mercer or law school.

I don't I'm not sure about
his favorite sections but

there are rumored to be
zoning litigation section.

And Georgia constitutional law.

He also has a very interesting hobby.

You know one farms is an organic farm and

the grace of it is a lot
of different things.

The gardens latest golf.

I was not able to establish your handicap.

Which is.

You know.

OK well I guess you had Tiger get
there on the sidelines of the Masters.

And for many years.

It was referred to as the father of
zoning law and one of his colleagues

said today more common to be here for you
is the grandfather of zoning laws Georgia

are three speakers will come in order for
Sat and then the show and then and

then we'll open it to questions and
comments from the audience so sad.

Is this a good place for me to stay and.

OK good.

Well thank you for coming in and

class last night I offered people extra
credit for coming to this lecture.

And you can see how persuasive a.

I was in encouraging
my students to attend.

Thank you for those that did and
I was just kidding about the extra credit.

You know Doug Dillard and I have known
each other for about thirty five years

and when we both started out
as lawyers we found ourselves

on complete opposite sides
of just about every zoning

case that we worked on and
in the very early days of Atlanta.

Back in the one nine hundred seventy S.
and one thousand nine hundred eighty S..

I as a young lawyer and
Atlanta was representing

Most exclusively neighborhood
associations and

Doug was known as the big bad boy for
all of the developers and

and we frequent We tussled
overs zoning issues.

And had lots and lots of good fights.

And one of the things that
I always discovered and

frankly it surprised me because only cases
can be exceptionally emotional battles

where our clients are really
at each other's throats.

But Doug and I were never at each
other's throats and in fact I found.

And I describe them then and I describe
them to this day as just a perfect

gentleman who just saw all
is role as doing a job

as opposed to having zoning disputes
be anything which was personal.

And years later when I started
teaching at Georgia Tech.

I invited Doug to start to come and
do some lectures on zoning

litigation and even though we had
started at such polar opposite extreme.

Means in times of the clients
we represented we quickly found

that our values and perceptions and
perspectives on the Atlanta and its growth

had grown together and
that we had many many common views.

And one of the things
we started to discuss.

Was the need to write a book
on zoning law in Georgia and

a lot of people have asked us well
why write a book on zoning law and

frankly the answer is very very simple and

the answer is the law is completely
different in Georgia than elsewhere.

The procedures are completely
different in Georgia than elsewhere.

And there are a lot of tricks and

traps in the law of the zoning and
land use in Georgia.

That if you do not know what
those traps and tricks are.

You can make a horrible per mistake
that essentially disqualifies

you from proceeding with your zoning case.

And Doug will probably
discuss this further.

But if you are an applicant and
you believe that you're being treated

in an unfair manner and
you wish to appeal your case to court.

You cannot appeal as a matter of law
unless you raise your constitutional

objections before the zoning body
that's making the zoning decision and

that basically means you stand up and
you say I'm going to sue you if you do not

give me my zoning and Doug used to be
very good at saying that all of the time.

But if you don't say it.

You're out of luck in terms of
being able to bring an appeal.

And it's one small example of
how if you don't know what

the law is you can quickly find yourself
in serious trouble and our goal.

Frank.

Lee in writing the book
was to give local zoning

administrators lawyers
developers architects.

And planning staff a resorts
that they could look to

in getting answers on zoning
questions in Georgia.

Now whenever you write a book and whenever
you do a lot of research a couple of

things happens the first is
your spouse inevitably likes or

dislikes what you do mice but

spouse does not refer to this book as
owning and land use law in Georgia.

She refers to it as that damn book.

Because books always take hundreds of
hours more than you ever thought they

did but you end up with lots
of interesting tidbits and

things that you just never
really had a perspective on or

new until you start doing
some research on zoning and

you know I think a few of the things
that really stick out in my mind and

I know I've said this to my class but
I never knew that there were three things

that were prohibited in Georgia as
part of the founding of our colony.

But there weren't those three
things were Catholics and

of course Catholics were prohibited in
Georgia because of the competition between

Spain and England for
domination of North America.

But in addition to that lawyers were
prohibited which I thought was very astute

on the part of our founding fathers and
also interesting Lee slavery

was prohibited in Georgia
when the colony was founded.

Which I also thought
was quite interesting.

I think one of the other things that
really struck me particularly when I was

writing the history section
of the book is you realize.

Hal.

In every period of time just how quickly

things change and
how in many ways things stay the same.

But when you look at our history.

Over a three hundred year period.

How land has been used in Georgia
has changed tremendously and

it's still changing tremendously.

And as a teacher.

It really has always struck me
that sometimes I think we plan and

focus on too much on
the way things are more so

than trying to think about how they
are going to be in ten years or

twenty years often due to circumstances
that are completely beyond our control.

And in my spare time I
like to think a lot about.

Well what's the world going to be
like with self-driven automobiles and

does that mean we won't have accidents and
will the automobiles be able to combine

together and form little trains
essential e running on tracks or

running on highways and
what would that do to our region.

If that were suddenly the case and will
we come to a point in time where no one

will have a car because a little automated
machine will arrive at your door and

what will we do with all of those
structured parking lots that.

Take away from urban vibrancy in so
many ways.

I also think the study of
zoning at least in Georgia.

Tends to be a bit of a study in

how Georgia is not
a particularly progressive

place to to be you know
when you look at the.

Zoning in the majors owning
case as you all know is

a city of Euclid versus Ambler Realty and

that case was decided in one thousand nine
hundred twenty six and it was obviously

the landmark decision where zoning
was found to be constitutional.

By the Supreme Court of the United States
of course just six months earlier

in a case called Smith vs city of Atlanta
our Georgia Supreme Court looked at.

Most identical facts and
city and were just horrified

at the thought that government might
regulate in the form of zoning and

struck down the city of Atlanta zoning
ordinance as completely unconstitutional.

When I think of things and the birth

of zoning a couple of things
really have always struck me.

One is how the goal or
the purpose of zoning

was really to deal with
urbanizing cities with noxious

industrial uses being
introduced into urban areas and

as positive a goal is that
was to try to address.

What we did went so
much further than that and frankly went so

much in the wrong direction and

I'm still struck by
Justice Sutherland's comment.

When he upheld.

The city of Euclid's zoning ordinance and

he was describing the need
to separate law and uses and

his focus was not in any way on industrial
uses about the only thing that he

really talked about in his opinion
were apartments and how apartments.

We're parasites and it really dawned
on me in writing the book that I

actually think what Justice Sutherland
was mostly concerned about was not

the nature of the land use
as much as should government

have the right to regulate who
is going to be your neighbor and

if you thought back in one nine hundred
twenty five or one nine hundred twenty six

and you thought for a minute about
who was living in those apartments.

It was by and large an immigrant
population that was new to America and

we were in a period of time
when there was tremendous

anti immigration sentiment
in the United States and

I think a lot of the early zoning
ordinances were frankly not so

much focused on separation
of land uses but

separation of people based
on economic class and

as we have developed our zoning
ordinances over the last fifty years.

You see residential uses which initially

everyone lived together in residential
communities but we started seeing.

Divisions based on size of Watts.

Where the large lots were where
the wealthy lived in the quarter acre

lots where where the poor lived and
you know you start to look at

even the city of Atlanta as
early zoning ordinances and

the city of Atlanta zoning ordinance
much to my surprise had as

much to do with enforcing and
preserving racial segregation

as it was to separate noxious
land uses one from the other

and there actually was in the city
of Atlanta's zoning ordinance

in the early days an area
that was designated as a air.

Area and I'm not quite sure what word
whether it was African-American or

Black or Negro.

But there was an area designated for
people who were non white and

non-Christian and to a large degree zoning

took over a job in separating people.

That previously had been
enforced through private

land use restrictions and Covenants.

In any event I think I'm
digressing in walking or

trying to cover too much in
just a couple of minutes.

We do hope that this book on zoning and
land use does become a resource and

frankly does help others with
an academic interest in zoning and

land use issues start to
focus more on the nature of

our local zoning ordinances and
how in particular they can be improved.

You know one of the things about
all of our zoning ordinances and

Doug was telling me the story the other
day about how the zoning ordinances

were very purposefully written
to make it almost impossible for

neighborhood groups to
challenge reasonings

rezoning is were a matter between
the property owner and the government and

in the early zoning ordinances now
in the one nine hundred sixty S.

there was a real move towards making sure
that neighborhood groups were effectively

disenfranchised Doug may talk about that a
little bit when he gets a chance to speak

but I hope that now that
this book has been written

that it will be a resource for
folks and that it will help us identify

research areas that really need attention.

And which will allow us to.

End up with zoning ordinances that
are more progressive and really more

protective of all of the various
stakeholders in the way into this process.

JILL.

Hi I'm Jill Skinner Arnold.

Thank you for having us.

I'm going to go into a little bit more
detail and substance of the book I'm going

to talk about some of the differences
between federal law and Georgia law and

I'm in a specifically look at takings
because I think that that's where

the difference between Georgia law and
federal law is most dramatic.

So the reason that or one of
the reasons that we look really closely

now at Georgia law is that in one
nine hundred eighty five case was

decided call Williamson County Planning
Association versus Hamilton County.

And in that case the U.S.
Supreme Court said that

to have standing in federal
court applicants or

whoever is bring in a zoning challenge has
to have first sought the relief in state

courts if relief exists and a final
decision has to have been reached and

so after nine hundred eighty five
a lot of the zoning cases of land use

cases have stayed in state court
because applicants have to go through

the state process that's in place before
they're allowed to go to federal courts.

I'm so I'm first going to talk
about federal takings fall and

then we'll discuss Georgia takings law and
compare the two but

I just wanted to start with that to
give you an idea of why Georgia know

in Georgia takings law is so important and
especially if you intend to practice here.

So Federal take INS law.

A lot of people I feel
like it fresh aerated

with some of the tests that the U.S.
Supreme Court has created for value.

Waiting whether or not property has
been taken and compensation is due.

And that we have to remember that the only

text that we're working with
when it comes to take the INS

is the fifth amendments in the federal
context is the Fifth Amendments nor

shall private property be taken for
public use without just compensation.

That's all we have to work with.

So what is just compensation.

What is public use.

What does it mean to take property.

So it has changed and
grown and expanded and

it's now a fairly new wants to area but
no kind of walk us through it so

it started out where
the Fifth Amendment takings provision

only applied to Federal Government
officials didn't apply to states.

Once the fourteenth Amendment was ratified
it was that the takings clause was.

Seen to incorporate through the fourteenth
Amendment to apply to states so

after the fourteenth Amendment
was ratified the Fifth Amendment

taking this provision applies to states.

So state actors local
officials it applies to them.

Then we get to you know what
does it mean to take property.

If you physically take property
if a government comes in and

says I you know I want to put a road here
I'm going to condemn this property and

put a road that's direct condemnation.

Obviously they're taking their
property they have to pay for

it by the terms of the Constitution.

What's more difficult is when
governments regulate and

regulate a property so much that you lose
certain rights in your property when

the government says no you can't build you
know a residence over three storeys or

you can't put a residence on
that at all things like that.

So we're kind of in this regulatory area.

So in one thousand twenty two A case
was decided on the Pennsylvania coal

versus the one case where
the Supreme Court alluded to the.

Act that these regulations can so restrict

property rights that they constitute
a taking under the Fifth Amendment.

Now in that case they didn't hold that
there was a taking but it was alluded

to that there could be these things
called regulatory takings than S.F.

mentioned the city.

If you click reality versus city of

Euclid case nine hundred
twenty six Supreme Court says.

Zoning is a valid exercise of the police
power you can regulate property but

it still we still weren't sure how far
the government could regulate property but

that held as constitutional nine hundred
twenty six by the federal Supreme Court.

So in the federal contacts
over the next few years.

We're still grappling with this
question of you know what does it mean

to overregulate take property.

So we start to get some cases started
in the nineteen seventies specifically

with the pin central case that I know many
of you in Seth's class have talked about.

That created a balancing test.

And the balancing test basically looked
at what's the character of the government

action and how much is the.

How much is the power many rights
from the property have been taken or

how regulated is that property.

So it first created this balancing
test which is typically referred

to as the pencil balancing test.

So we get one test to determine these
federal taken so issues then we get

another case that follows that believers
of the late seventy's early eighty's

called Lucas versus the South Carolina
coastal Council and

in that case the Supreme Court held that
if all rights are taken from property and

that it has no economic value then that
is a taking under the Fifth Amendment.

So that's our second test.

Followed after that is the right.

Verses Manhattan corporation and

in that case the Supreme Court held
that you know if you physically

invade property then that's a taking so
we get these tests over time

in the federal context that kind of try to
elaborate and expand on what does it mean

to take property in the regulatory
context then we get our No one in Dolan

which says that if you
condition a permit on

the property owner doing something
in that condition has to be

having a central nexus to what's being
asked to has to be roughly proportional

to what the applicant is asking for
so we see over time that

you know that in the federal takings
context what it means to take property

tax changes expanded it's got the
categorical test if you don't fall within

those you know you might have the pin
syndrome balancing test so it's still kind

of a gray area and the court readily
admits that it's a very gray area and

it comes down to what
are the facts of the case.

So that's federal law you
have these four or five.

That you're looking at so
Georgia law is is completely different.

So assess mentioned the first
zoning law that was

the city of Atlanta was struck
down as unconstitutional.

That was nineteen twenty six right
before Euclid versus employer reality.

After Euclid.

Georgia kind of warms up to the idea
of zoning as being constitutional

at least facially constitutional and
to kind of have this

period of courts when they're looking
at these land use regulations.

They're looking at was the regulation
reasonable and Sosa's reasonable test.

And then in one nine hundred seventy five.

We get the GA the Georgia law on on taking
that came from the case of fair versus

Hannity which says that you balance
the detriments to the landowner and

whether there's been a second detriment to
the landowner with the public interest.

You know what.

What's the public interest or

the public welfare being served
by whatever land use regulation.

So it's very versus handy test in one
thousand nine hundred five is still

the law in Georgia when it
comes to taking balancing test.

You know the harm to the landowner versus
the public interest in the regulation and

you weigh that and
it is a literal weighing test.

Unlike in federal law where you have

these different categories so do you do
you have no economically viable use in

your property as someone invaded your
property things like that in Georgia.

It's very versus him be
significant detriment.

What's the public interest of
the public welfare being served.

And in that case they talked about

to no constitutional reasonable
innocent things like that.

Didn't expand on it until the year
after nine hundred seventy six.

We get the whole case and

in that case the Georgia
which was dogs case.

The Georgia Supreme Court
created six factors that

courts would look to to determine what
is constitutional reasonable miss and

these six factors were later
codified in an act and

now are found in most
local zoning ordinances.

So if you were to go as an applicant
now and apply to have your property

rezoned you would have to fill out
how you meet all of those factors.

So.

That is pretty much.

But Georgia law are the two in the takings
contacts and the difference between

how your federal categorical test and
then your GA balancing test.

Now does think about doing litigation.

Well thank you.

You know assess said we we started out
on opposite sides of the spectrum.

In this whole land use.

Connection.

And and I really appreciated Seth or
Leone he made me a lot of money.

Because they were always fighting.

I was on ins and
folks needed Reverend Dyson and so.

We both made money.

But as is years went on and
we were able to develop a body of law.

It became apparent that that we needed.

We needed some some way
to put it together so

that it could be a resource for
those who were interested in in the.

Local government and
were interested in Landis' So

when I went to do one of the guest
lectures it says Class A few years ago.

He asked me he said you have
thought about writing a book.

I said yes and I've had people
talking about writing a book but

I'm first of all no academic.

Secondly I don't think I
got the discipline right.

And thirdly I had I don't
know it takes a lot of time

to write a book but one needs to be
done Sesay Well I'd like to write

a book on zoning ladies low in Georgia and
put your name or and that's it.

Ever had it.

Man you know we'll loan loan I had
got to do it will be doing good so.

So he he has it's this book and
it's Jill's but we bought Dylan to do.

Do the research in the actual draft and
have it.

I have played a very minor role
in in in the in the draft and

in writing of the book but I think
Dylan and Seth did a wonderful job and

I hope that if you're interested
in pursuing this as a career.

Or otherwise that that you
will that you'll get it.

I have found it to be useful already and

it's been now I guess less than six months
I've used it and used it a good bit.

Let me follow up on on this
whole it a Geisha and thing and

the concept of zoning.

We don't make money going to court.

We make money being
able to go to court and

we spend our time working with the
neighborhoods trying to reach an accord

trying to reach agreement and over ninety
percent of the cases that we handle are or

worked out successfully does
not require that a geisha But

litigation be able to go to court in
doing what we do this is a specialized

process and I think you have to develop
an attitude that the Constitution

gives us our unfettered right to use our
property from the lawful purpose and

that can be interfered with only through
a proper exercise of police power by

the local government as as Seth and
diluted for years and years and years.

We didn't have in Georgia.

Anyway even after you quit you could
decision in one thousand nine hundred

six the Georgia courts did not recognize
the local government's right to regulate

property and they denied judicial
review of zoning decisions

until Bear versus Hamdi the total case
was sort of a prelim ahead of that.

But but Bear versus Hamby came in and

said it is proper for
the judiciary to review local legislate.

Acts by local governments
to determine whether or

not the unfettered right of the property
owner has been unjustly interfered with

by an abusive over active exercise of
police power by local government and

that's a balancing test and when we had
the Goober says Holcomb bridge decision.

After Hamby The problem with
Hamby is it did set the standard

we found of the Illinois case got of
the cab can a judge to agree with us.

And that became an appeal of the law
of the state in the six criteria that

deal went over all the criteria
that you that you look to and

that local governments must follow
in making zoning decisions.

Well how does that form
the basis of the litigation.

It depends on whether or not.

The decision by the local
government is arbitrary

capricious abuse of
discretion unlawful and

results in a taking of a valuable property
right without first paying a fair and

adequate Just Compensation
unconstitutional under both the fourth and

fourteenth the Fifth Amendments now.

One of the things that deal did
mention is that there is no federal

protected property right.

The federal cases have said
while while we look at it.

Governmental interference.

The taking issue relative to
the protection of property rights

is a state issue and

is governed by the Constitution of
the each of the respective fifty states.

So so just keep that in mind
while there are issues relative

to constitutional takings that are in
the federal side of the ledger for

the most part litigation
involving a zoning is

a local matter and is litigated in
the state in the state courts of the.

A particular state now.

Euclid while it opened the doors for
local government to regulate zoning

was probably one of the worst decisions
we've seen in the arena of land use.

In the history of our country
because it has done it.

Divert has shown us over the last
seventy five eighty years

that the separation of uses and
the answer.

The fact that we put apartments here and

offices here and commercial here and
residential here.

In segregate those uses
separate those uses

has resulted in what we've come
to come you know as sprawl and

as as we go as you go into your life and
life's work

all the experts are saying that you're
going to demand a different lifestyle.

You're not going to demand a single
family home or a large lot seventy

five percent of the country
residential uses historically has been

large lot subdivisions and single family
detached well in the new millennium.

Whoever you guys are.

Is is is predicted to
require a different lifestyle

that the twenty five percent that
is historically been a tax cluster.

Apart than the like is now going to
become townhomes is not going to become

seventy five percent of that market.

And twenty five percent of
the market is then going to be.

Single fame to tax on large lot so.

As we as we look at that
demographic trend and

the demographic changes in the market
changes are getting ready to happen.

Whereas only borders where I
was owning ordnances a bake

basically Euclidian ordinances.

Period.

Which which deal with.

Facial arbitrary and capricious things
like distinction between a ten thousand

square foot lot and a twelve thousand
square foot lot and a fifteen thousand

square foot locker in own those lots
on a fifteen thousand square foot lot.

You've got to build a house with
at least two thousand square feet

on a twelve thousand you've
got to build a team hundred or

sixteen hundred square foot home and
own a ten thousand square foot lot

you build of course that
twelve hundred square foot.

While you put you put a fifteen thousand

square foot a lot next to a twelve
thousand square foot lot and

drive down the street and not dared that
you can tell the difference first of all.

And secondly I dare that you can say
that's an eight hundred square foot home

and that was two thousand and how does
that relate to the protection of anything.

It's arbitrary.

So I thought when we filed these
these cases would make a facial and

as the heirs as applied a tax
on these ordinances because for

the most part they set
arbitrary standards.

That have no relation to the protection
of public health safety welfare.

Yet at the same tag you're restricted
my right to use my property for

any lawful purpose and there's no
public protection being afforded

as a result of these arbitrary standards.

Granted saying fame to
tax needs to be detached

it needs to be separated
by side yard setbacks.

So you've got fire protection and
utilities and we're New Orleans and

all I can stuff but what is the difference
in a thirty five foot set back on

the front yard versus a fifty foot
setback versus a twenty five foot set by.

Why I grew up Decatur on
a sixty five foot lot

happened to be three hundred feet deep.

But you know we started.

We had was a fifteen hundred square foot.

House the dad had it on tune of
probably the time of his death

he built it nine hundred forty eight and
he died No six only house he ever owned.

Other than the farm house which is

you know the source of my little organic
farming thing I'll talk about them and.

But it's like one hit rested
in the law they that but

the think the thing about it is
that is that we had a fifteen

hundred square foot home two houses
down on a sixty five foot lot.

There was a free house where phone

across the street from that house was
a five thousand square foot home.

Down the street was a thousand.

Twelve hundred square foot
bungalow all in the same story.

They have survived why have they survived
Why is Decatur that survived like it has

why has the junior Highlands come back
because most of it was developed before we

had zoning regulations and we're now
looking back at what we were doing pre.

Euclid.

And in the camp can indicator.

They didn't have a zoning
ordinance until the fifty's.

So decayed Canada after this first
zoning ordinance one hundred six.

Fulton was in one nine hundred fifty four.

Good net County today is under a nineteen
eighty five zone in resolution.

They don't fit.

They're not all fit your lifestyle they
don't fit the needs of the public today.

And local governments are now being
asked to make urban decisions and

the problem they got is they
all grew up in suburban So

they got suburban mentalities and
they were asking.

They aren't capable forget it.

They're incompetent.

I told him that's more than five.

It's a do you know what we want you to
hold up this loan he got out Prem until we

had up conference a plan.

I said you know I might
not live long enough.

You people who got a clue.

So it was she was a friend but it's true.

So when we look at when
we look at litigation.

I think we've got a look at
zoning laws that should be

designed and I say this is an organic
farmer should be designed to

protect God's created
order Think about that.

Rather than set an arbitrary standards
that have no relationship to that

creates brawl which creates problems for
the for the earth for

the air for the runoff for transportation
for all the things that we hold dear.

So.

What is it all about.

You're going to be the ones
that will be responsible for

providing the leadership that
leads us into real change

substantial change that hopefully
will minimize litigation.

So most of the day what is it
is that Houston has no zoning

to do if you starve to death in Houston.

I said well you know you should
have been in Atlanta for

the last five years I've
been pretty bad here to but

look at Houston look at
the Woodlands outside of Houston.

They went out in creative city.

Makes use they've got problems because
they don't have land use regulations but

you know used instant pretty good
there and twenty five mile an hour.

To The War of the mike.

They call themselves port city.

You couldn't do that in Georgia.

Without untold variances in zone names and
all kind of things

that that you would have to do unless the
state undertook to do it because they'd be

exempt from all the regulations
except environmental rightly so.

When we look at litigating
we're talking about.

The local governments violation

of the balancing test that was set
forth in beverages hamming who were so

corporate there's really been
results reduced to to another state.

Standard by by the.

Richmond County case.

Yeah gratis the gratis versus Richmond
County which says significant detriment

and is that have any relationship to
protect the public else I said well for

well to do significant detriment
you've got to get into the goo Tess.

About what's around it.

What's near next door.

How long has it been vacant as own.

Does it have a reasonable
economic uses Karla's own and

that's always that's always
the big is those because

in Barack they said look
all property has value.

You don't have to show that it has no
value what you've got to show is that it

doesn't have a reasonable economic
that you as currently zone.

And that's a term that

that they look at the courts
look at on a case by case basis.

There's no real quote standard for
what is reasonable economic use so

we try these cases.

We say I would got
an agriculture use here.

You know we're going to go through the
fact that I can have a church I could have

I could have a farm I could raise hogs and
cattle and all that counts up it.

Also garden.

I can also have an institution I have an
educational institution there are a lot of

different uses I have a bowling alley and
a G. district.

So we have to go through and
say OK these users don't fit.

This is only classification and
it's not about what we asked for

because the Course will take judicial
notice that what you asked for is going to

create value is going to be more valuable
after his own and that is before us on it.

So the courts don't let it get
into it's not what you asked for.

It's whether or not the current
zoning is imposed on this property

has reasonable economic value and
as such not having any reason

economic value constitute the taking of a
valuable property right for that payment.

So when you try these cases you
need appraisers land use and

now says you need land
planners the developers and

of course the property owner now.

What can the courts do.

All the court can do is to
find that the property is

unconstitutional is on the courts
do not have the power to zone

the Constitution gives that exposure to
the local governments cities and counties.

So all the court can do is declare
the zoning unconstitutional.

And we also go into other uses.

That would be unacceptable to us so
that when the court rules they

rule on the intervening classifications
that exist between what we won't.

And what we got.

Send it back the court
retains jurisdiction.

Most of the time for
ninety to ninety days to six months.

Durex that that the Board of
Commissioners or the city council zone

the property to a constitutional
classification and if we've done our job.

We've we have.

Move on.

Pretty much the classifications
that we don't want

are not proper so
that the limit question of

the local government is limited to where
they consider the commercial zoning or

the P U D or the various Klan
apartments and whatever that might be.

So that when they use own it.

The court has given them.

Direction on what they should consider in

finding classifications intervening
class cations as unconstitutional.

So.

Let's say we're asking for commercial and
we're zone to a single family.

We want to go through the multifamily
we want to go through

all the single family classifications we
might go through an office classification.

To get to that to get to
the district that will long.

And that is pretty much the process
the appellate process is a discretionary

process if if I don't like what they did
I can appeal it's a discretionary appeal

by the Supreme Court less than fifteen
percent of those appeals are granted.

So it's pretty hard to get you know
an appeal so far as litigation goes

the real fight is in the lower
court in the is in the lower court.

That's where you really
got to do your work.

But I think the thing if I want you to
take away anything here today is that.

The myriad of zoning
classifications that we've got and

the zoning ordinances
are fifty percent unnecessary

like is it you know why
are you going to worry about

five ten fifteen twenty thousand
square foot lots next to one another.

The key is mixture the creation of balance
means that you've got a variety of A.

Opportunities within close
proximity to one another and

that includes both residential and
nonresidential uses and if you look at.

If you look at the areas that have come
back in their areas that were developed

before we had zoning like Virginia how
instigator and examples that are made

those areas that are coming back that
have got that mix in close proximity to

pedestrian activity limitation
on automobile use to

sense of community to accessibility
to protection to pedestrian activity.

Those are the areas
that are growing today.

And so
we've got to get these ordinances changed.

And they've got to be reflective of
the future demographic trends of arc

of our country and the most
important because it was so right.

Land use wells initially were used to keep
people out ladies flaws in the future need

to be a vehicle to bring people together
and in so doing protect God created or.

Last I thought I might start.

That it's going to be it's not.

Passed.

You can answer either of
these right he said last.

But you can take it negative.

Play in Georgia Elaine Hese
are sounding law

which would be most eager to fix
if you became king or queen.

What would you be in those years.

Yes or on the cost side.

If you were unable to
do any one major in a.

A national leader in the area.

What would you know you know.

Well my biggest don't
know if it's a fix or

a clarification it probably is more
of a clarification would be to.

Better explain the function of
overlay district so right now

we're seeing a lot of overlay districts
pop up in different jurisdictions.

The problem is that when these
overlay zoning districts are put

on top of an underline district.

Sometimes it gets confusing
either which regulations

Trump and take affect and also there's

conflict with the overlay and underline
zoning districts in a lot of these cases.

So overlays are supposed to add certain
design features and characteristics or

add certain uses but it's not supposed
to conflict with the underline zone.

So if you have an underlying
residential zoning classification and

you put an overlay on top of it that
allows for you know industrial uses or.

You know high density commercial
uses there's a conflict there.

And I think that what we're seeing is
local governments doing that instead of

using overlays as they were intended
to be used if you have your underlying

Sony district and
your overlay is supposed to add.

Certain architectural standards so
if you want the facades of buildings So

look one way or if you want to
revitalize an urban corridor or

something like that it's these design
features wider sidewalks things like that

rather than changing the underlined
use and the underline zoning so

that's I don't know if it's a fixed.

If a clarification as I said but at any
guess number of different overlays that we

err I mean and in the metro Atlanta area.

I would say a majority of
the jurisdictions have overlays.

And some of them.

I think it's Roswell has multiple overlays
so you could potentially be living on

a piece of property that zoned residential
You have a historic overlay you have.

It's not forget that there are there one
is like a downtown urban core overlay and

some tend to you could
have multiple overlays but

you know all almost all jurisdictions
met in the metro Atlanta area and

have overlays or
will probably soon have relates the trend.

You know if I were just adding
a couple thoughts to what you is

I think my greatest concern
as a lawyer and a teacher

is I happen to think our governmental
regulations should be capable of being

understood by the average citizen and
I happen to think our biggest problem

is that you know there's there are a lot
of good things happening in in terms of

zoning regulations a lot of the overlays
are trying to achieve very positive.

You know the written for positive
purposes and we're starting to see some

form bases owning in Georgia at
least in City of Roswell and

I think that's certainly a step
in the right direction but

unfortunately in trying
to make things better.

I think we have unfortunately we are
making the more complicated an order for

the average citizen to understand and

that to me is not something that
anyone seems to be addressing and

I happen to think that you shouldn't
need a lawyer to interpret.

The law for an average citizen.

Now the other thing I feel very very
passionate about is our zoning laws

are written to prevent neighborhood
groups from having access to the courts.

You have to follow these
very arcane procedures that.

The smartest lawyers in the state
are often scratching their heads trying to

figure out how they can actually
have standing to go to court and

assert a claim and you know we were
involved in a case about a year ago.

That's now up on appeal but it was a case
where the neighborhood went to a hearing

to learn more about the develop what
the developer was trying to do and

a decision was then made to
approve the developers request and

this was actually not at a town
mission level it was out.

Planning Commission acting
on a platter review

and basically on appeal the the.

The cap county government and
the developer both said well you know.

Yes you were at the hearing.

But you didn't present all
of the evidence that you

could present and anything that
you didn't present at the hearing

is no law is not a part of the record and
now can't be raise and

you know the neighborhood is
quite legitimately saying well.

Haven't we know the raises and
we were hearing about this case for

the first time we were there to learn and
now you're saying on appeal.

We know rights and frankly that's not
an uncommon hype of situation in Georgia.

You know.

But I happen to think
that we should not be.

Boring to the average citizen and
I think that.

While.

Sort of violent chance of.

Probably.

Because they're exclusionary and.

Have single family or family.

Structure.

And I will probably.

Give me.

Well the markets call and so

I've got a situation right now talk about.

We were asking for a cluster.

To do that with class or
family condo apartments or.

For in the stands for the requirements
of the order for a detached problem.

It was sixty foot wide and
the six thousand square foot.

Well.

So it's time for my lesson.

No way I'm going to move the product as
a matter of fact with the sixty foot lock

with the front side yard setback so
that my density is four point three zero.

So while.

The noise.

This is with the Muslim to my mind so.

Yeah I really want to just don't
have you don't have all right.

What you're really saying is that
ordinances are still stuck in the one nine

hundred sixty S. and really are not
addressed and I dread to think about

how to become denser as a city and
our ordinances are planning yet.

And unfortunately a lot
there's not political will

necessarily to in support of increased
density and different development.

You know dogs had a number of cases
in Dunwoody recently where you

know the city councilman stand up and
say we like Dunwoody just the sleepy way

it's always been now gun is no
longer a sleepy suburban locale.

It's an edge city with next to the largest
employment center in our state.

And yes done with the get
cancer at the right locations.

OK we can take questions here and

I'll probably try and repeat the question
for the purposes of the microphone and

maybe simplify a little questions
from our audience our professor.

The question or discussing.

Positive or negative reasons for that.

If I disagree with perhaps you
could explain basically what.

We're.

All right.

Or.

Wrong.

That.

You know if I'm describing
anything I like form based codes.

I think they're better than a lot
of my fear as a city planner.

I worry mightily that all of every

zoning ordinance is arbitrary at
some level every zoning ordinance

has unintended consequences that years
later we may look back and say boy

you know are we going to venture
back to form base codes the way.

Clytie What were they
thinking in two thousand and.

I worry that we sometimes grab towards one

one size fits all solutions
that are trendy and

popular until they are no longer friends.

So while I support for
my base I do worry that

all the homogenization of development

and and when and originality create
that I think urban vibrancy.

Yeah plywood just seconds that
it said I would guess for now.

My dad would say what kind of a high
bred for a brain you do away with some

of the underlying you know
are one hundred are seventy five.

They're small differences that dad
was talking about when it's just

you know at thousand
square feet different.

Between these different.

I would keep underline use regulation and
that maybe let me broaden the underline

use as you know residential
commercial industrial office and then

the foreign based you know architectural
standard sidewalks lighting those things.

I think they should be encouraged and
I think so.

I think for bass guitar good but I think
there should be hybrid form based codes.

So that some use regulation
is still included in those.

And if you've not been

you should go like the coolest
thing in the world and

participate.

Because it's the race is
the best to make every

where we want to.

And

where is it.

We

or.

I think another

book coming here

to thank you.