MARLEE GIVENS: Is there something that your students get to do in their library job that you wish you could do as well? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: As a manager, I feel like sometimes my job can be boring, in a way lonely. During COVID, we send a lot of our folks home, obviously. And there was a time that we started accepting items back again. And we just had a lot of books returned. We had all of our book carts full of books, not very many students actually available at the time because the University was still closed. And it was in summer, so I started checking them in. And it was so fun. It was so therapeutic and relaxing, that's it's like for a little bit of a time I didn't have to solve any other problems. I could just check in books. And that was fun. [MUSIC PLAYING] CHARLIE BENNETT: You are listening to WREK, Atlanta. And this is Lost in the Stacks-- The Research Library Rock and Roll Radio Show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the virtual studio with Marlee Givens, Wendy Hagenmaier, and Fred Rascoe. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you're here for, we hope you dig it. MARLEE GIVENS: Our show today is called For What They're Worth. CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh, is that a Buffalo Springfield reference? MARLEE GIVENS: Well, it could be, but I was thinking more of a labor and wages reference. Our episode today is about student workers in libraries. And as important as students are to the workings of academic libraries, we have dedicated only one episode to student workers in the last 12 years. WENDY HAGENMAIER: And yet students have been working in libraries since the Melvil Dewey days. FRED RASCOE: So student workers get no respect, even on Lost in the Stacks? CHARLIE BENNETT: Easy there, everybody. Lost in the Stacks was co-founded by a pair of former student assistants. And that's Ameet and me, if you're new to this. And when we used to broadcast from the actual rec studio, we had a show crew full of students on the mics and running the board. WENDY HAGENMAIER: But they were an unpaid crew of students. So we can't pat ourselves on the back really. CHARLIE BENNETT: Ouch. FRED RASCOE: But the experience is invaluable, right? MARLEE GIVENS: Well, that's one of the things we'll talk about on the show today. Charlie and I spoke to Seti Keshmiripour from the University of North Texas who helped us better understand some of the issues surrounding student employment at the library, including the fact that we don't pay them enough. FRED RASCOE: And our songs today are about students working at the library, those who help them, and the financial opportunities that sometimes go along with the work. But we're all optimistic about where our paths will take us when we're in college. So let's start with a song about being young and ready for adventure. This is well, Marlee. You take this one. MARLEE GIVENS: This is "Le Temps de L'Amour" by Francois Hardy, right here on Lost in the Stacks. FRED RASCOE: Ooh la la. [MUSIC - FRANCOISE HARDY, "LE TEMPS DE L'AMOUR"] FRANCOISE HARDY: [SINGING IN FRENCH] MARLEE GIVENS: You just heard "Le Temps de L'Amour" by Francoise Hardy right here on Lost in the Stacks. And our interview today is about student employees in the library-- what they do, how they're managed, and what issues we should be aware of around student employment in the library. Charlie and I spoke to Seti Keshmiripour, head of Access Services at the University of North Texas Libraries. And we started by asking her, what do students do in the library. SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: That's a very good question. I think it just depends on the library and the perspective of the supervisors. In our institution, I think traditionally we had a lot of student positions for staffing service points, some also, like, simple processing across the library. But more and more, we are also hiring specialized students according to their subject of their study, to utilize those skill sets that they have in some other areas that the library has some needs for. So for instance, I know that our marketing department hires students with background in graphic design and photography to help with those marketing projects. We hire specifically library science or information sciences students for research assistant services, and also in other departments in the library, for cataloging and metadata and that type of services. So students may be hired for different reasons. For instance, the other interesting example I think is technology desk and the makerspace that we have. They do hire from, I believe, computer science programs and students with those type of backgrounds not just for providing services, but they also help teaching workshops on the use of special equipment in the makerspace. I see more and more of this type of a specialization, comparing to the more traditional way of utilizing students in the library, that it was just, like, you hire undergrad students that honestly it just doesn't really matter what type of background they have because we're going to train them from the beginning on the things that we need them to do, which we still do that as well. All of our service points are pretty much staffed fully by student employees. All of the shelving stacks, maintenance pretty much is also done by student employees. CHARLIE BENNETT: Is library staff outnumbered by student workers? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: In my department, yes, they do. [LAUGHING] CHARLIE BENNETT: And are they all not full-time, and the staff is full-time? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: Student employees can work part-time. But we do have graduate students among our staff as well. It just happens that they got the staff position, but they do take classes towards a degree. But our student employment positions, they are part-time. There are laws on how many hours they can work, and that sort of thing, depending on if they are international students or citizens or on work study, that all impacts the number of hours they can work. But in these specific positions that we can post for student employment, on average they can work 20 hours. And there are some instances, if they're citizens, they're not on work study, they can work up to 25. But more than that, at my institution, we're not allowed. CHARLIE BENNETT: Do you have students who become full-time staff, especially with the Library Science program. And in fact, inside that question is also, were you a student worker before you were staff. SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: Yes to both questions, actually. So we've had instances of student employees that they were undergrad and in a different program that than Library Science. They got a job at our department. And after a while in conversations with our staff librarians and graduate students, they become more and more interested in the Library Science program, and they enrolled in those programs. And sometimes in that regard, they became a graduate services assistant at our own institution. And sometimes afterwards, they became staff member. So we definitely have seen that progression happening among some of our student employees. When I was a student getting my master's degree here, I did work as a graduate services assistant, providing reference and research assistants. At the time, we didn't have chat, but we certainly had reference services via email and face-to-face, over the phone. After that, I became a staff member for about a year, and then became a librarian for a few years, and then the department head. MARLEE GIVENS: I'm curious, when you go out to conferences like the Access Services Conference and you talk to other people in the profession, do you feel like your situation with having this many students is typical or atypical. SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: I think it's typical. MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah. SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: I think it's a trend that we are seeing more and more among academic libraries in particular. The cost of running a library obviously is high. And I think over time the librarian positions, some of them, at least, turn to staff positions, and staff positions to student positions. I think one point of view can be that, yeah, we're just hiring students because it's cheaper labor. But on the other hand, we can also advocate for the experiences that they learn working in a library. And the opportunities that we are able to give them at that position. So I think, like anything else, like I'm hearing a lot of people saying that, well, education is all about what you take from it. Similar to that, working in a library, it's also about what you want to take from it, and also what your supervisor is willing and able to provide for you. We have tried to create opportunities for our student employees to grow and help them to learn some skill sets, not just learn them, but also be able to identify those skill sets and articulate them on their resumes. So when they do graduate, they can, instead of just saying that I worked at this library on their resume, they can actually explain those transferable skills that they've learned by working in a library, that they can actually utilize them at another job. So I think those are key components of having student employees, that it can be really a life changing experience for them. And I've heard a lot from our students that even though they thought they were using the library before they got a job, but they really didn't know about all of the services and resources that are available to them. So just by the sheer of working at the library, they learn more about the resources and services that the library has. And as a result, they become more successful in their education, and later on in their career, which is the whole purpose of higher education. CHARLIE BENNETT: We'll be back with more from Seti Keshmiripour of UNT Libraries after a music set. WENDY HAGENMAIER: File this set under Z682.4.S89.K38, [MUSIC - WEEZER, "SMART GIRLS"] RIVERS CUOMO: (SINGING) Where did all these smart girls come from? [MUSIC - FOUNTAINS OF WAYNE, "TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL"] FRED RASCOE: You just heard, "Too Cool for School" by Fountains of Wayne. And before that, "Smart Girls" by Weezer. Those are songs about the cool kids who come to work at the library. [MUSIC PLAYING] MARLEE GIVENS: This is Lost in the Stacks. And we're speaking with Seti Keshmiripour, head of Access Services at the University of North Texas Libraries, about student workers in the library. CHARLIE BENNETT: Do you feel like the students are changing the library when they work there? Are they there long enough and do they work closely enough to actually influence the organizational culture. SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: That depends on the relationship that full-time employees have with their students. If we give them the opportunity, they do change us-- and for better, honestly. Over time this past few years, we have tried to create an environment in our department that our students are more willing to share their thoughts and they feel valued. That when they tell us their opinion, we take it seriously and we do try to incorporate that in our work, if possible. Sometimes they say something that, like, why don't we do it this way. And you have a good answer for it, right, just like this is why. And sometimes they say that. And it's just like, makes you wonder, why don't we do that that way. And I think these are really interesting conversations that happen among us. And with these type of questions that they ask or opinions that they have, they make us think about those whys. And the more we think about it, the better we can make improvements. We have made a lot of improvements in our department based on the feedback we've received from students. And as a result, they feel more comfortable coming to us with those ideas. And on the other hand, we've also have shared some other opportunities with them, such as participating in outreach events or our book displays. We do share as much as possible those opportunities with our students to see if they're interested. We notice that our outreach events, they seem more productive in a way when we have students at the table rather than employees. Our student body relates better to their peers. So it creates that whole peer-to-peer learning experience. And that's the same also at the service point. When we are staffing the service point with staff rather than students, that kind of changes. But when we have students at the desk, there's more likely that their peers are more comfortable coming to them with questions. MARLEE GIVENS: If I could ask a kind of a blunt question. When you talk about opportunities for growth, is that also a growth in salary? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: Sometimes it can be. For instance, we do have a few lead positions. So for our service desk student assistants, right now in my department we have about 12 students. Two of them are lead student assistants. They have become lead after working at our department for a while and displaying a work ethic and behavior that is exemplary. So they have shown signs of leadership and interest in the position and what they do. Their supervisor will select them for a lead position. And then as a result, they are assigned some other duties. They are more involved in training new students. So they get to practice that. They gain teaching experience by doing that. They review our training materials. So we utilize their expertise with reviewing training materials and editing them. We went as far as letting them to actually put together the monthly meeting with students, putting together agenda, asking for feedback from students, putting together the content of the meeting, designing activities. Some new games that students will participate in, but they have learning component in them. We tell them, for example, we are noticing an issue with our students making mistakes when they need to refer a question to a graduate student assistant or to a staff member. So how can we address that to make it a bit more engaging, more active learning, rather than a passive learning. So those lead students work together and design an activity or game. They practice that with their student, with the rest of the students. And as a result, we notice that they feel more engaged and they work together better. And yes, these lead positions, they do come up. They do come with a raise. Another example of engagement, the Stacks Management Team. They do also have a lead student. And their lead, in addition, do a lot of processing new items that are coming in and new periodicals, so some just at a computer processing things. We have involved them in our book display. So we asked them for their opinion on the topics. Once a topic is selected, they do participate in putting together the material for the display, the design, and the communication, and marketing of the display as well. And that collaboration helps them to be more engaged with what they do and actually brings up that creativity that they may have. And we have been away from-- or apart, at least for myself-- from the new students, the new generation, to some degree. Sometimes it can be really harder for someone like me to come up with a display topic that our Gen Z are interested in. But getting feedback and making our student employees involved in that process, it makes our display more successful because they understand one another better than I understand them. CHARLIE BENNETT: Sounds like you have a student-run library, kind of like a radio station. Do you ever feel that way? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: I'm not sure if they're running it. But they definitely are a very important component in the operation of our library. We do I think invest a lot of time in supervising students. Maybe it's for good or not. I think there are probably different opinions on that. At the Access Services Conference, we had a colleague talking about the exact opposite of what we practice at UNT. They saw professionalizing our career as changing student positions back to staff positions. And I see the point. You do have some challenges with students, that some of them may be very much invested in this position. But some of them is just an on campus job for them. And they do the bare minimum. And they may not do as good of a job as when you have a staff member at the desk. I completely understand that as well. However, I see the positivity in preparing these students for the workforce. And I also see this cycle. Going back to the question you asked, Charlie, I think this cycle of seeing students coming in and becoming graduate students, librarians, staff, I'm sure that cycle happens in other institutions and other organizations as well. And many of the students that are actually graduating after working at the library, they get good jobs and at the field of their own. And they do come back sometimes and tell us about the things that they've learned here and how they've been helpful to them. So I think by utilizing students in these positions, we are contributing to the greater good of preparing these younger generation, these individuals, for the workforce. Does it have challenges for us? Absolutely. It is really time consuming to keep hiring and training students and investing. so much time in engaging them. We have been wanting to increase engagement with students for a long time. And unfortunately, with the number of staff we have, it's been difficult. But by delegating some of those to them, we've been able to actually accomplish that goal and make the work environment a lot better for both the supervisor and students. WENDY HAGENMAIER: You are listening to Lost in the Stacks. And we'll be back with more on student library workers on the left side of the hour. AISHA JOHNSON: Hello. [MUSIC PLAYING] This is Aisha Johnson. I'm the associate dean for Academic Affairs and Outreach. You're listening to Lost in the Stacks-- The Research Library Rock and Roll Radio Show, on WREK, Atlanta. CHARLIE BENNETT: Today's show is called For What They're Worth-- All About Student Workers in the Library from a Manager's Perspective. During our interview with Seti Keshmiripour, we asked her, what can we do to improve the student workers experience at the library? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: The first thing would be changing their pay rate. The second one we could also offer them insurance. Third one, I wish there was some more consistency among the departments on how we manage students and what type of opportunities we're providing for them. Some of the engagement activities that I said we do, it's actually pretty unique to my department. I have a few staff members that are fantastic. And they have been very successful creating these engaging activities for their students. They were with me at the Exit Services Conference, and we had a presentation there together. And I am very proud of the work that they have done, because I think that they truly care for our students. And it really shows in the work that they do. But that's not necessarily the case at all of the departments or all of the institutions. I think for my own management, I hope that I can sustain this. I'm sure my staff at some point will leave. They all have their MLISs. And I'm sure at some point they will seek those librarian positions and leave. And my goal at that point, I think, would be being able to find someone else to take that position that does have that care and empathy for students. Once they are hired, really encourage them to continue these practices. And not just continue them, but also build on them and expand them further. I think that would be a challenge for my position. But I'll do my best to keep building on it. CHARLIE BENNETT: File this set under BJ1581.P4. [MUSIC - THE PET SHOP BOYS, "OPPORTUNITIES-- LET'S MAKE LOTS OF MONEY"] FRED RASCOE: You just heard "Opportunities-- Let's Make Lots of Money" by The Pet Shop Boys, a song about experienced professionals working with novices to make big things happen. WENDY HAGENMAIER: Welcome back to Lost in the Stacks. We continue our interview with Seti Keshmiripour from the University of North Texas Libraries. CHARLIE BENNETT: In the first two segments, we talked about what students do and how they support the library. And now we need to talk about money. MARLEE GIVENS: That's a really good experience for those students. But are they really getting paid what that level of work is worth? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: No. CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, I should tell the listeners that was a very sincere head shake that we got as an answer to that question. SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: That's an unfortunate circumstance that we are in. I personally believe that not only our students are underpaid, our staff are also underpaid. And we do need to advocate for a better pay rate for our students, without a doubt. CHARLIE BENNETT: What does that advocacy look like? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: That can be different at any institution. Well, you kind of need to take a look and see what means you have. Sometimes it can be just bringing it up to your supervisor at the time that you are requesting an annual budget, at least that's how we do it at my institution. Every summer, we submit a request for our student wage budget. It's a lot of back and forth with our finance director. But we do go over the duties that our students do, the complexity of the positions they have, and the skill sets that they need to have to do these positions. You can sometimes make a case for increasing their salary. If you have been able to diversify their positions in a way that justifies a higher pay rate, you might be able to find that leverage, if I may. But it's not always working well. So sometimes there are wins and sometimes there are losses. I'm not saying that every time I tried I was able to convince them. The more we understand the viewpoint of administration and the finance directors, whoever is doing the budget, the better you can try and advocate for students. At my institution, staff salaries are a lot more difficult to change, because they are managed by HR. But the student ones are a bit easier, because they're more internal. But that doesn't mean that there is not any obstacles. Of course there are. There are, I think, ways that we can justify those changes. We just need to be able to find a good way of communicating that and find a way to really describe what it is they do and why do we think that they need to be getting paid better. There are also conversations we can have about other positions that are available on campus. So a comparison of salaries with any other position on campus that they're getting paid better than our students, but they're doing a similar job. Or by comparing with jobs off campus that actually require less skill sets, they're easier to do, but they pay a lot better than what we offer our students. And oftentimes, we do lose our students to those positions, to on-campus positions and also off-campus positions. We do try to communicate those out at our town halls or any other opportunity we get with our hiring managers, with our dean, our director of finance to remind them that this is an issue that we need to address. And there's been some efforts at UNT to make things a bit better, but we're not close to be really done with this issue. This past summer after a lot of managers brought up this issue, our administration did a review of job descriptions of students. And they did bump up our minimum wage a bit. But again, I think that we still have a long way to go. MARLEE GIVENS: What did the students ask for? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: So they don't necessarily come and say I want a raise or I want a better pay. If they're not happy with the pay they have, they will try to find another job. So we just see them leaving. And depending on the relationship, again, that supervisors or other staff members have with those students, they may just ask, oh, why are you leaving, something like that. And oftentimes they do say that, well, I got a job that has a better pay at this place. And sometimes there are other reasons that they may leave. Another advocacy that I think we can do-- if pay rate is harder to change, we might be able to advocate for giving students some sort of benefits. And the more we can offer those things, the better it is for students. An example of that at UNT, there are some jobs for students that they do offer an out-of-state tuition waiver. So they just waive their out-of-state fees. And that student then pays in-state, which is almost half. And there is a lot of competition for those positions, obviously. For a short period of time, we found out that apparently computer labs on campus are offering this incentive. We couldn't at the Library Services Desk. So we just asked a lot of questions. What are the criteria that the student position becomes eligible for this benefit? And we adjusted our job description because we believed our students, even based on the definition they had, our students were eligible for this benefit. And it was just maybe a miscommunication or misunderstanding of what our students do. So we made some adjustments to the job description and took it back to graduate school that provides this benefit. And we're able to actually get it for our service desk students. And that's been great. Now we have out-of-state students and international students really becoming interested in these positions and come and work for us. CHARLIE BENNETT: What was the standard that you thought your positions were meeting and still not getting the tuition remission perk? SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: I don't remember the exact wording, but it was related to being involved in the instruction and teaching of other students on campus. So a lot of teaching assistant positions and teaching fellow positions on campus are benefiting from this tuition waiver. I think that the computer labs were able to justify that they are teaching students on the use of technology. Well, that's what we do in the library too. We teach them on the use of resources. So we strongly believe that our students should be eligible, at least our Service Desk students. At the Service Desk, that's all we do. So we made some changes to those job description to really emphasize on that. It was there. It was just written in a way that I guess those folks didn't really understood what it was. And it was successful. We were able to get that for our students. Someone may say that, well, that is a benefit for out-of-state students and international ones, but not for your in-state. And that is true. But every little bit that I can help our students being compensated for the work that they do, I'm going to try that. CHARLIE BENNETT: Inside that story, I hear a little bit of the ongoing debate and devaluation of the library's support of teaching and learning on campus. And also I have a little more context suddenly for why our administration is really pushing for us to tell our story in terms of students success now. SETI KESHMIRIPOUR: Absolutely. Our University has been focusing on student success a lot and also making connection between the experience that students are gaining on campus and their career, their job opportunities-- experiential learning, as they call it. We have made the case that the library is one of those places. I think actually at the library, after dining services, we have the highest number of student employees on campus. So we are a big part of that on-campus experience. And in some cases, we have been able to really communicate exactly what it is that students learn by working in the library, make those connections with their major as much as possible. But in some cases, it hasn't been as successful. MARLEE GIVENS: Our guest today is Seti Keshmiripour, former graduate library assistant and current head of Access Services at the University of North Texas Libraries. CHARLIE BENNETT: File this set under KF6436.A6. [MUSIC - ZZ TOP, "JUST GOT PAID'] [MUSIC - FIELD MUSIC, "WORKING TO WORK"] WENDY HAGENMAIER: You just heard "Working to Work" by Field Music. And before that, "Just Got Paid" by ZZ Top. CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah. WENDY HAGENMAIER: Those were songs about getting paid fairly or unfairly. [MUSIC PLAYING] CHARLIE BENNETT: Our show today was called For What They're Worth. And we started out with a question to our guest about things her student workers do that she wishes she could do too. What's on your Freaky Friday list, everybody? Either what you would do as a student employee if you had that chance again, or what you wish a student could step in and do for you? MARLEE GIVENS: Well, I never worked as a student assistant. My first library job was as an employee, but I did work as a volunteer at a public library. And I really enjoyed shelving. So that's what I would do. FRED RASCOE: I was an undergraduate student assistant -- I was paid -- at the University of Tennessee Libraries. And if I had the opportunity, I would totally Freaky Friday back into that job. My job was taking books that faculty and graduate students had ordered and delivering them to their offices, just take a whole morning to just like roll my little cart around campus and do that. It was great. MARLEE GIVENS: Oh, you're playing post office. CHARLIE BENNETT: My favorite thing I ever did as a student employee was actually the summer of the Olympics in Atlanta when the campus was closed. And that was when we moved all of the journals from before 1980 down into the basement compact storage. Took a whole summer. It was just a crew of librarians and staff members and student workers and random tech temps. And we moved just thousands of books. And the purity of purpose to that summer, I have never experienced again. WENDY HAGENMAIER: I also was a student assistant as an undergrad. I've worked with students at Georgia Tech student assistants. One thing that I wish I could do that they can do-- so at Tech we have a lot of engineering students. And we have a lot of folks with electrical engineering skills. And they can fix the motherboard on the old computers that we have. And it's just like a miracle to me. So that's a really awesome skill. CHARLIE BENNETT: That is some retro tech magic right there. Roll the credits. [MUSIC PLAYING] Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, written and produced by me and Fred Rascoe, Marlee Givens, and Wendy Hagenmaier. MARLEE GIVENS: Today's show was edited and assembled by Charlie, wearing his original Georgia Tech RAT cap. Legal counsel and a Student Workers Union card were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. FRED RASCOE: Special thanks to Seti for coming on the show, to all the students who keep the academic library alive, and thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening. MARLEE GIVENS: Find us online at lostinthestacks.org. And you can subscribe to our podcast pretty much anywhere you get your audio fix. WENDY HAGENMAIER: Next week's show is a rerun. And we'll be back with a new episode the week after that. FRED RASCOE: It's time for our last song today. And a reminder-- no matter how early you are in your career, no matter how close you may or may not be from getting a degree, if you're doing work, don't work for free. This is, "We Don't Work for Free" by Melle Mel and the Furious Five right here on Lost in the Stacks. Have a great weekend, everybody. [MUSIC - MELLE MEL AND THE FURIOUS FIVE, "WE DON'T WORK FOR FREE"] MELLE MEL: (SINGING) In the darkness of night, all the stage lights are shining bright. Hey, and we work very hard to make you stay. Right. But it ain't no thing y'all, because I know that you can hang. We're not too expensive, but you.