[UPBEAT MUSIC] FRED: But next time you do a book, are you going to do are you going to do your research in a different way since it is so exhausting? 

AISHA JOHNSON: No. It's one of those things where no matter what you do, it's work. Right? So you pick the thing that you're most passionate about because we like to say, oh, it's not work if you love it. That's not true. It's work regardless. But the passion makes it just a little bit more bearable and enjoyable. 

And because I don't know if I'm a glutton for punishment or I'm just that passionate about the research and getting this information out, because the more I dig, the more I find gaps in scholarship. And I like to think that if it's a gap in my scholarship, then other people don't know it. And it's my duty to get this out, especially as it relates to libraries. So no, I'll still do my research in the stacks because that's where the truth lives. 

[GUITAR MUSIC] 

AMEET DOSHI: You are listening to WREK Atlanta. And this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock-and-roll radio show. I'm Ameet Doshi, in the virtual studio with Amanda, Fred, and Wendy. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you're here for, we hope you dig it. 

FRED: Today's show is called The African-American Struggle for Library Equality. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: Yes. Fred and I met up, virtually, with Dr. Aisha Johnson, Assistant Professor, Program Director of the Masters of Library Science Program, and Program Director of Archives and Records Management at North Carolina Central University. She is the author of The African-American Struggle for Library Equality, the Untold Story of the Julius Rosenwald Fund Library Program. 

Dr. Johnson is the first tenure-track professor to be hired as a full-time online faculty. Ahead of our time. And she was a pro at the virtual-interview thing. In the book, Dr. Johnson chronicles how the altruism of Julius Rosenwald bridged racial divides in the segregated South through literacy programs and equal access to reading materials. In addition to the more than 5,300 rural schools founded through the fund's library program, its efforts established more than 10,000 school colleges and public libraries. 

AMEET DOSHI: 10,000. Did you say 10,000? Andrew Carnegie, the philanthropist, Andrew Carnegie, whose name is ubiquitous with bringing libraries to cities and towns all over the US, he funded around 1700 public libraries. 

FRED: That's quite a difference, there. The funds built library-science programs that trained African-American librarians too. So Rosenwald, who was the president of Sears Roebuck and Company, in the early 20th century, desired to improve, quote, "the well-being of mankind," unquote, through access to education. We need more Julius Rosenwalds in this world right now, I think. 

AMEET DOSHI: Right on, Fred. Our songs today are about distrust of historically-oppressive systems, hope for justice, and encouragement about the future. So we start with a song recommended by today's guest. It's about trying to figure out how to find equality in an unequal world. This is "What's Going On" by Marvin Gaye, right here on, Lost in the Stack. 

[MARVIN GAYE, "WHAT'S GOING ON"] 

[VOCALIZING] 

AMANDA PELLERIN: You just heard, "What's Going On," by Marvin Gaye, on Lost in the Stacks. For today's show, Fred and I spoke with Dr. Aisha Johnson about her personal history with libraries and her journey to discovering the remarkable story of the Julius Rosenwald Fund Library Program. Dr. Johnson, welcome to the show. 

AISHA JOHNSON: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be a part 

AMANDA PELLERIN: I want to get going, first, to talk about your personal history and experience with libraries. And what was your path to becoming an information professional? 

AISHA JOHNSON: So I think it's natural. But at the same time, I always say that librarianship, especially-- even being an archivist, finds the right people. Growing up with my parents, very focused on education of their children and understanding not only history, but the African-American culture, going to the library was a pastime. That is something that we naturally did. 

My mother often took us to the library on the weekends. And my father frequently purchased Britannica encyclopedia sets for children and adults. But I had an older brother. I have an older brother. I wanted to do everything he was doing because he was the oldest. 

He, actually, is the one who taught me how to read because whatever he learned in school, he would come home and share it with me. And my parents, they supported it. They fed into it. They were already very interested and lovers of reading, and especially history. So it just became something very natural to me. And going to the library is something I've never not known. And so I've taken that with me on my educational journey. The library, as a place, for me, has always been just a comfort zone. 

FRED: You wrote a book about a person named Julius Rosenwald. And Julius Rosenwald, as you write in your book, was someone who wanted to foster that interest in libraries, interest in reading and education. How did you come to find out about this person and what he did to promote libraries in African-American communities in the early 20th century? 

AISHA JOHNSON: It's a very funny story. During my doctorate program at Florida State, I began to take public history courses because I was already naturally looking into African-American diversity within librarianship and the need to increase this diversity within the library-and-information science field itself. So that was a natural interest for me. 

And the angle that I was approaching, I knew I would have to do historical research. So I went over to the public-history program and took several graduate courses in archives, oral history, historical-research methods. 

One of those courses, the Intro to Public History course, actually required a semester-long internship in an archive. Luckily, Florida State has a number of museums and archives on their campus. So I got with one of the archivists and started learning how to process a collection, and understand archives and archival theory. 

And I'm like, I really like this. I'm really enjoying this. This is a natural fit. And this was the turn of the economic crash. So the next thing for me-- because my first committee chair retired instantly because a lot of the universities were retiring people versus firing people. So I was a little lost. 

I'm like, OK, I know I need to take these classes. But what's next? And it just so happened that a number of my other professors and I, at the same time, saw an IMLS call for applications. There was a fellowship. The fellowship was increasing African-American diversity in archives. 

And like I said, the professor sent it to me. I had came across it. So I was like, you know what? I'm going to apply for this. And I got it. 

So it's a year-long fellowship, a cohort of African-American women who wanted to become archivists, wanted to become trained archivists. And we went to Chicago for a three-month immersion program, and then to our respective host sites. Well, my whole site was Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee-- wonderful, historically Black college and university. 

And they have some of the most amazing collections-- very small institution. Anyone who was a shaker and mover in education, in African-American history, has gone through-- John Lewis is alumni. This was a really significant place in African-American education, post-civil war. Still is today. 

But they have some of the most amazing collections. One of the collections I was assigned was the SL Smith collection, also known as Samuel Leonard Smith. So he was actually one of the southern office directors for the Julius Rosenwald program. 

In his collection is where I started to see information about the libraries. And I'm like, wait a minute. What is this program? I've never heard of this. And at this point, I'm three chapters into the dissertation. And I'm doing my research on a Savannah Carnegie Library. 

But I searched. Nothing came up about this library program. I asked my professors, tenure-track professors. And they had not heard of it. 

That was my call. That was a signal to me to say, you need to tell this story. Now the funny thing about it is that collection has been unprocessed since it was transferred from Peabody College in 1947. And it was just unprocessed, sitting there, waiting on me. 

FRED: Unprocessed, to non-archivists, means it's just a box of things that were donated and never looked, at never organized-- is that right? 

AISHA JOHNSON: Yes, absolutely. Not processed, meaning it was not available for public use. And it had been sitting there for quite some time. And I looked into it. I redid some research. I found nothing. 

I found a few references to the schools because the libraries actually came-- when Smith made Rosenwald aware, he basically said that you're building these schools. But without adequate reading material, the school is mute. That really sparked the library program, among other programs, that the fund had. But it really sparked the library program. And that's where we start to see the focus on literacy through libraries. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: That was something that really resonated with me, or so pervasive that you've attached Carnegie's name to the library development and programming, that philanthropic initiatives he had. Talk a little more about the role of philanthropy and the access to information in library development. And what are the risks and benefits of relying on philanthropic programs for libraries versus public funding? 

AISHA JOHNSON: OK, so that's a really great question. So we have to one, consider the time period. We're really focused on the early 1920s. So a lot of the things that we have in place, that we automatically assume will take care of something, such as public funding, did not exist. 

So it was oftentimes up to the local community groups, charitable organizations, and philanthropists to actually put these measures in place and fund things like libraries. So you've got Carnegie, who does a significant thing. You have the [? gene ?] supervisors. You have American Library Association, the American Missionary Association. And then you also have Faith Cabin Libraries. 

There's a lot of local community groups that really step up and try to build libraries, even if it's just a collection of reading material during that time period. So without this level of philanthropy that Julius Rosenwald and the fund committed to, African-American literacy in African-American education would have been continuously delayed. 

There was this misconception that African-American literacy African-American institutions and organizations had to lag behind that of white organization's literacy whatsoever because again, we're still post-reconstruction era. We're still in a time frame of discriminatory practices in public accommodations because oftentimes, the state was not stepping up. 

The Federal Department of Education is still young. It was not a federal department. And the state departments of education or the State Education Departments, as they were sometimes called, they were not keen, at all, on funding African-American anything. 

The unfortunate part of that is, in the South, where it was already rural, if African-Americans didn't have access, 9 times out of 10, white Americans didn't have access either. It was permitted to a custom of slavery, sharecropping, and then just simple segregation, which hurt the region, developmentally, longer than it needed to. 

So public funding was not really a major consideration. Philanthropic funding is really what moved the educational and library development in the American South. 

FRED: This is Lost in the Stacks. And we'll get back to our conversation with Dr. Aisha Johnson after a music set. 

AMEET DOSHI: File this set under Z711.9.J634. 

[ESTHER PHILLIPS, "MISTRUST IN BLUES"] 

[STEVIE WONDER, "YOU HAVEN'T DONE NOTHING"] 

[VOCALIZING] 

AMANDA PELLERIN: You just heard, "You Haven't Done Nothing," by Stevie Wonder. And before that, "Mistrustin' Blues," by Esther Phillips. Those were songs about distrust of people and information. 

[ROCK MUSIC] 

FRED: This is Lost in the Stacks. And on today's show, we are talking with Dr. Aisha Johnson, who's the author of The African-American Struggle for Library Equality, the Untold Story of the Julius Rosenwald Fund Library Program. We asked her about the importance of the library to African-American communities in the early 20th century, and the role of philanthropic efforts. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: Can you talk a little bit more about the sense of place that the Rosenwald-funded libraries provided to the community of African-American users? And how did this affect the life in the round concept of African-American communities, that you describe in the book? 

AISHA JOHNSON: What the life in the round concept means basically that you have to go where the round is. And the African-American community, naturally distrusting of anything white organization or white institution, because of the history there, was very limited on letting people in. But the African-American community and what the philanthropic opportunity, or how they approached African-American literacy, really changed the game. 

They started building schools in 15 southern states for African-Americans. So there's a bit of a trust factor there already, because there's also African-American teachers in those schools. So there's comfort there. There is a sense of place. There's a sense of belonging there. 

One of the other things, I would say, with the African-American community and libraries, the stipulations that Rosenwald put in place in his fund, and was continued to carry through by the officers, made a really big difference in philanthropic giving during this time period. Whether they were Black, white, urban, rural, he wanted everyone to have access to these libraries. 

So even when we focus on African-American literacy and African-American development, the entire American South, Black and white, actually benefited. So we actually saw small, rural towns in Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, desegregating in the 1920s and '30s, for access to literary material, which to me, blew me away. 

I kept having to read these documents over and over because I'm like, wait, OK, these are the stipulations. But what people are actually doing this? And there's actually raw data to show that there were users, white and Black, because they separated the statistics, because they wanted to see the use of these materials and who was reading what, or who was checking out what type of material. 

I thought this town, Mobile, Alabama, rural, small town, historically known for the racism-- you see small towns like that actually desegregating because they want to be able to have access. So we're focused, in this program, on African-American literacy. 

But white Americans actually benefit. The entire American South, the literacy actually develops when we're focused on a culture, historically discriminated and really set up to fail. 

But it was things like that where-- and I think that was really one of the things I wanted to focus on. And I noticed that during the dissertation process. And I'm like, man, this is amazing. When we just, as a country-- even though this was a philanthropist-- as a country, when we focus on, basically, the underdog, everyone wins. 

And this is something-- it actually made me call to question, how do we get away from this? Because this is something that we were doing between 1927 and 1947. And this is pre-Civil Rights Movement. So how do we get away from this? But libraries made a huge difference in actual desegregation of a major public accommodation just so Black and white people can read together. 

We start seeing bookmobiles from this program, which we really didn't have a timeline for when bookmobile started. But we start seeing them in the early 1930s, the late 1920s. We start seeing African-American public libraries emerge. It's just such a beautiful thing, when we are focusing on the literacy of African-Americans. 

And I understand. We were focusing on the education and the literacy of African-Americans simply because of the historical denial of all things access. But the basis of the fund was for the betterment of all mankind. And Julius Rosenwald really, truly believed that once you are more literate, you have an increase in educational opportunities-- which remains-- that's a mantra that we still-- reigns true today. 

Whether it's formal education, trades, or any type of professional development, the more access to opportunities that you have. And really, while we're focusing on African-Americans, everyone . Benefited 

FRED: And it's not just the fact that this philanthropist, Julius Rosenwald, came in and funded schools and libraries that had this positive effect, there was also the emergence of the African-American librarian, directly associated with this fund and his philanthropy. 

AISHA JOHNSON: Yeah, that blew me away because again, one of the things I went into my PhD program looking at is more diversity within the LIS profession, African-American diversity in librarianship, specifically. That's not something I was looking at during this process, during the dissertation process. I was really looking at the historical denial of access. 

And one of the emergent codes that happened was the funding of HBCU libraries, Historically Black Colleges and Universities-- because a number of them were teacher-training colleges. But they didn't have the appropriate children's literature, which is crazy. I want to teach you how to become an instructor. But I don't have the appropriate materials. 

So from that came, well, we should be educating African-Americans as librarians too. And with a partnership with the American Library Association-- develops with Julius Rosenwald and the American Library Association-- we start actually seeing emerging programs, the first being Hampton Institute's library science program, not only the institute that he funds, or the library science program, where he sends exemplary teachers to become librarians. 

But we also start seeing him funding summer institutes and training programs. He's contributing money towards all type of African-American library conferences at this university. And he's contributing toward Clark's program as well. 

It's amazing. The funding and the institutes alone actually propelled African-American librarianship. We see a drastic increase in the number of African-American librarians because well, if we're going to build the libraries, we need to staff them with African-American people. 

That's another comfort level. That's diversity. That's-- people respond. Or that life in the round concept, people are more comfortable with people who look like them because that's where we're getting our information in our community. So you're the likelihood of having the best result is also staffing the library with people that look like the community you're serving. 

So it's amazing how they propelled African-American-- I don't know if it was absolutely, initially intentional. But it was definitely an end result. And it impacts us today. A number of the schools that received funding, still-- a lot of the librarians sing the praises of the universities. 

But oftentimes, we don't know where this funding came from. And that's one of the things I also wanted to highlight in this book. I wanted people to know, there's 43 Historically Black Colleges and University libraries that benefited from this fund. And many of them still do not know where that money came from. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: We'll be back with more of our interview with Dr. Aisha Johnson on the left side of the hour. 

[UPBEAT MUSIC] 

Hello, this is TJ Lucien, also known as Griots Speak. And you are listening to WREK, Atlanta. This is Lost in the Stacks, the one and only research library rock-and-roll radio show. 

FRED: Today's Lost in The Stacks is called The African-American Struggle for Library Equality. Let's hear from fierce civil rights icon, Representative John Lewis, about his own experience being denied access to knowledge at the public library in his hometown. 

JOHN LEWIS: I grew up on a farm in rural Alabama, 50 miles from Montgomery, outside of a little place called Troy. And in 1956, at the age of 16, with some of my brothers and sisters and first cousins, we went down to the public library in the little town of Troy, Alabama, trying to get library cards, trying to check out some books. And we were told, by the librarian, that the library was for whites only and not for coloreds. 

I never went back to the Pike County of public library in the little town of Troy, Alabama, not the same building, until July 5, 1998, for a book signing of my book, Walking With the Wind. And hundreds of Black and white citizens showed up. At the end of the program, they gave me a library card. 

[APPLAUSE] 

FRED: That was John Lewis, speaking at the 2013 American Library Association's annual conference in Chicago, about getting into good trouble, breaking racist segregation laws, and revealing inequities to information access at his public library in Troy, Alabama. File this set under HV28-E348P47. 

[SYLVESTER, "I'VE BEEN DOWN"] 

[MARVA WHITNEY, "I'M TIRED, I'M TIRED, I'M TIRED"] 

(SINGING) Oh, yeah. Oh, come on, come on, come on, come on baby. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: That was "I've Been Down" by Sylvester and "I'm Tired, I'm Tired I'm Tired," by Marva Whitney, songs about the exhausting search for justice and equality. 

[ROCK MUSIC] 

FRED: We're talking about equitable access to library spaces and information resources with Dr. Aisha Johnson. She's at North Carolina Central University. And she's the author of The African-American Struggle for Library Equality, the Untold Story of the Julius Rosenwald Fund. 

And I want to start this last segment with a quote from your book where you write, "in an era occupied by rapid growth of information technology and communication capabilities, the value of the library in the life of the user perspective has been overlooked." 

So my question is, how can libraries be more user centered and forward thinking in their collections, their holdings, their service models? 

AISHA JOHNSON: Diversity is the short answer, diversity in all aspects, across the board, not only in the hiring process, down to even student assistance, but diversity in the collections that we are acquiring. Not just a form of electronic print or academic disciplines, but the source, the authors, the scholarship. 

We have a grant problem with open access and the cost of it. We have to make sure-- in addition to, we have to also make sure because academia is the place of intellectual freedom. Academia is a place of exploration of information. And we have to make sure that the diversity that a lot of students may be experiencing for the first time on the academic campus is also reflected in the information professionals. 

I think that's really important for minority groups, across all boards, to be seen as sources of information as well because then we are focused on the user. We are focused on the user because we're getting different perspectives. And those perspectives are going to align with our users. If everyone in the room looks alike, and they're making the decision, that's not really focused-- you're focused on one type of population. 

And that does not benefit the diversity of our students. It does not benefit the diversity in thought, the diversity in collections, the diversity in programming. Any type of perspective that can be offered by a group of people who do not look alike, who do not come from the same background, will only strengthen us as we look for various ways to service our users. 

FRED: The conflict is, we have this system. And diversity is just not at the forefront of our system. Julius Rosenwald saw that back in the early 20th century and decided to address that in a philanthropic way. Is that our only hope today, a philanthropic way to change the system? 

AISHA JOHNSON: I think philanthropy still plays a major role. I won't say it's our only way now. I think our primary source of increasing diversity is going to be community involvement. It's going to be hearing the voices of those less heard. It is also going to be in the actions of our academic programs. So our librarian programs, we see ALA and SAA, Society of American Archivists, is very committed to equity, diversity, and inclusion. 

So if our professional organizations are committed to this and they're on their soapbox, then it gives the programs a boost, encouragement, also a push to be committed to recruiting and retaining students of color, students of diverse backgrounds, because recruitment is one thing but retention is another. 

And that's the same thing in the work environment. Recruitment is one thing. But maintaining and retaining that minority professional is another challenge. And that's about the environment, the organizational culture. 

I think that the community involvement and the professional organizations being on a soapbox has really made a significant difference in libraries and archives being more user centered and increasing diversity. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: Do you feel like that's the role that libraries can play in today's social justice movements, that we're seeing? 

AISHA JOHNSON: Yeah, so historically-- I definitely agree with that. Historically, libraries have always been a center for social justice movement. If we go back to the Civil Rights era, libraries were originally the ideal sit in location because how dare you deny someone who wants to read free knowledge, that they're paying taxes for, but they're being denied access. 

So oftentimes-- and the book doesn't touch on this because we focused on a particular time period-- but oftentimes, during the Civil Rights movement, the library was a place for the sit in. And it was a political reason but also a strategic reason. It's as simple as, I don't have access to the library I'm paying taxes for. 

So I think that-- and now, even with our social justice movements, from Black Lives Matter to the continued fight for women's rights and ERA, I think we still see the library playing a major role in not only being a place of information and educating people, and also in increasing social justice programming, but we're also seeing libraries as a point of documenting the social movement with intention. 

And I think that's a wonderful thing because they are focused on the community. And they're having the community be involved. And I think that's beautiful. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: Thank you so much for talking with us today. What's next for you, Dr. Johnson? Do you have plans to write more? 

AISHA JOHNSON: I do. I do have plans to write more. Again, one of the things I always talk about is, when you're doing research, you have to remain open to whatever the archival stacks, the material, offers you. And going into the dissertation research, I was focused on the library aspect of the Julius Rosenwald Fund. 

But it gave me so much more. The archival materials gave me information about HBCU libraries, African-American librarianship, state organizations, social justice in libraries. It gave me so much. It basically gave me a research agenda for the rest of my life. 

[LAUGHS] 

I definitely have plans to write more. I'll get started again, on the next phase, focused on HBCU LIS programs, as well, next summer. So I'm really excited about that. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: We are too. And we hope you'll come back on and talk to us again about your pursuits. 

AISHA JOHNSON: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: Thank you. 

[PLEASURE VENOM, "THESE DAYS"] 

FRED: File this set under LC2802.S9D48. 

[THE DIRT BOMBS, "IT'S GONNA BE ALRIGHT"] 

(SINGING) It's gonna be all right, it's gonna be all right, it's gonna be all right. 

That was, "It's Gonna Be Alright" by the Dirt Bombs. Before that, "These Days," by Pleasure Venom. Those are songs about encouragement and change. 

[ROCK MUSIC] 

AMANDA PELLERIN: Today's show was the African-American struggle for library quality. We spoke to Dr. Aisha Johnson about her book, The African-American Struggle for Library Equality, the Untold Story of the Julius Rosenwald Fund Library Program. 

Libraries are often thought of as the ultimate in egalitarian institutions, offering free access to information. And yet, that doesn't always bear out in the record of evidence. Libraries are part of a system that is deeply inequitable, and cannot escape critical review of our own complicity in the racist structures in place. 

FRED: That's heavy. But it's a place to grow from. Libraries, archives, and the information professionals who dedicate their work to policies of diversity, equity, and inclusion seek a better way forward for all. 

AMEET DOSHI: And take a note from Dr. Johnson. When the stacks become too much, step away for a moment to catch your breath. 

AMANDA PELLERIN: But always find your way back in because the truth lives in The Stacks. Roll the credits. 

[UPBEAT MUSIC] 

Lost in the Stacks is the collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library. Written and produced by Ameet Doshi, Amanda Pellerin, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, Marlee Givens, and Wendy Hagenmaier. 

FRED: Today's show was edited and assembled by me. And I want to give a special shout out to WREK chief engineer, Jon Moxley, for helping us get it on the air every week. Legal counsel and a positive sense of place were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. 

WENDY HAGENMAIER: Special Thanks to Dr. Aisha Johnson for being on the show. And Thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening. Find us online lostinthestacks.org. And you can subscribe to our podcast pretty much anywhere you can get your audio fix. 

Next week is another new show. Wait. We're doing a new show two weeks in a row? Ameet, it says here, on the schedule, that the Leiden Manifesto Show is next Friday? 

AMEET DOSHI: This is bibliometrics. Yahoo. It's time for our last song today. As we learned, the Julius Rosenwald Fund was all about giving opportunities to marginalized populations via philanthropy since our systems and our infrastructures did not provide those same opportunities to everyone equally. Here's hoping for a future where those opportunities are built in for everyone. 

So let's close with a song about that bright future. And it's performed by the first African-American punk rock band, straight out of Philadelphia, in the 1970s. The band is called Pure Hell. That is pretty punk rock. And the song is called "Future." Have a great weekend, everyone. 

[PURE HELL, "FUTURE"]