You're right. Well I was right because you are so. Well thank you. OK Thank you. I will is the sound OK All right let me tell that story that I always tell some of you've heard it before about you know how people come up and have to think and say do you want to make I don't have to do that right. OK good. I'll forget the story too. I love this this image which is by a French graphic artist. Filipe Sikhs and what I found and I thought this is fabulous. We're going to be a series of these but in actual fact that's the only one I've ever managed to find and but his work has been primarily in the field of illustrating children's books and you can't really see the details there. But this blows up really well and you can see the fine details of the glaziers working on the rose wind the equipment and so on. And it's very appropriate because it is the. Middle Ages medieval period from roughly eleven hundred to. The onset of the Black Death in that in fifty two or three hundred years where there was extraordinary burst of construction energy going into building because the drawers of this kind in France alone. There were eighty of them built in that period five hundred major churches monasteries hospices let alone the military fortifications there were over a thousand castles built in that period as well. So this was a great time to be in construction. But what it did was to define the approach to construction that was being taken in the processes that were used for almost five hundred years after that. Anyway until the days. Program first inevitably some background and then the next thing. Why study construction history and then we'll go on and look at a little bit quickly at the course that I teach the construction History Society of America which tech pioneered setting up some years ago. Then look at the research projects I've been involved in and there's no point in doing research if there aren't any lessons to be learnt over touch on those and I'd like to. Just review with you very quickly the research that my students are doing or have done and a few concluding remarks. Well as I had said I started my involve the college in in two thousand and my remit at that time was to devise and organize continuing education programs for the college and. Incidentally at that time. Dean Galloway didn't quite know what to call me in the position and I had the the very best title I have ever had in my life far exceeded the presidency. Vice president of this that and the other is executive in residence. And but I'm very proud to have a professor in practice I might add. Anyway one of the one of the programs we did the S.M.P. society from marketing professional services came to us and said you know we'd like to see if you could organize a course about the construction industry the non-technical professionals working in the industry primarily cause marketing people people who are coming in to the industry to market designing construction services who had been I don't know selling parking spaces maybe they knew nothing about the industry and so could we do this and we thought this is a really interesting challenge. We put it together over a period of a few months and it was a huge success this particular one in Chicago had over one hundred people turned to it and. And so it was really funny in doing that. I realized that really needed to start it off by having a little history of the background of the industry so we had put together this first segment of about thirty minutes rather breezy history from the pyramids to Bilbao and and how history shaped the interest we have today and that suddenly triggered in me the dawned on me that history was the key to understanding the industry why we do the things that we do them in terms of process. And so but then we had to be practical about this and as it began to mature in my mind. Well why would we study history. Well it's not as many people think studying history as to predict the future. I mean if it was his drawings would be would be very wealthy and they're not because. We do it to prepare ourselves for the future. Only through history can we can we under. Stand how things change and what causes change. We learn from mistakes of course we're not very good at doing that in the construction industry but we should be doing better and and are certainly trying to do that in many cases and to ensure that great deeds are really not forgotten. Then you know the industry is largely ignored as a totality in academia and by the media and by the government and is taken for granted but there are some fantastic pieces incredible things that the industry has done to build the framework within which civilization has grown and continues to grow. And again one of the purposes I think of the course that I teach is to instill some pride in this industry which we are part of that it has a long long history and a very proud history and has done some fabulous things so. Anyway about this time you can see the continuing education program was closed down and I went to Galloway at that time and said What do you want needed. Until I realize that that's not the way that academia operates you tell them what you wanted. He said What do you want to do. I said well I really got intrigued by this by history and by the fact that we really ought to be sending our students out from here and from engineering who are going into our industry with a better knowledge of the industry in which they're going to make their careers for forty fifty years and he said Yeah that seems like a good idea and I said it probably you know. Revolves Around two courses and he says. Well OK but start with one and I said where would you start as well I think the first thing is obviously to start with history anyway we decided we needed to touch on elements of the industry today. And for the future and I came up with this really catchy title the construction industry deconstructed its past present and future. Well Doug Allen at that time was the was the interim dean and he said no that's much too long. It can't go into banner. It has to be something simpler and so the course got caught changed the history of the construction industry at that point Garri who was running the. Department I guess at that time in building construction said right. If it's got history in the title. Nobody will come. This is America America looks forward it doesn't look back and so history supposed to be boring but nobody had told me I hope you can bring that kind of funny. So this then led to the development of the the course that I teach and I thought well. This is going to be a piece of cake. Or I need to do IO know and understand an industry in which I work for forty fifty years and I've got a pretty good feeling for what's going on and perhaps and ideas as to where it may be heading and the history part of probably easy is going to be a couple of textbooks out there that I can pick up and use that to deal with the history part of it. Well as I discovered that there were no textbooks. And here's a quote. Can you guys read that or the best you can. OK but I'm not going to read it to you but it this is by Richard Goldthwaite who wrote this fabulous book about the building of a new source Florence and. He was an economic historian sometimes you get better writing about the industry from people outside than inside it and go through it is a magnificent job on this and. But then he goes on to say exactly this the histories of style the. Olding types blah blah blah. Although the industry is a very important one to mankind and a comprehensive view of its historical development is not easy to come by. Well I can second that because there is no such no such text at all. And I quote at the bottom from Andrew St. If you want to make progress. It may be useful to know what has been done before you and I have a sense of where you're starting from and that applies to almost any field of study going back to find out how you got there. So I then realized that this was going to be quite a task and it took me about eighteen months to put the historical section of this all together and in the process of it I came across the most extraordinary pieces of scholarship that dealt with a tiny sliver of the whole story. Here's one violence and birth the Cambridge University goes back thirty forty years Greek temple builders of Epidaurus whether the extraordinary things about it about Greece we know more about building construction in Greece than we do for the whole of the period in which Rome existed because somebody something of an oversimplification but generally in a construction contractor Greeks insisted that the contact was inscribed and inscribed as you know not on paper or papyrus or anything. I'm stone. So the stellar still there. This incredible woman must to spend years and years combing over the steller to the extent that she was able to put a story together as to how this particular temple was built. How much it cost even in talent and saw an amazing. And so very much indebted to this kind of scholarship. Here's another one that I came across think perhaps the amazing gold is the mortar the economics of cathedral building this guy must have spent years combing through my. Evil text and so on putting together a story of the financing of about a dozen of the major cathedrals in in Europe in that period that I just mentioned. Another extraordinary piece of research by John James an Australian architect into the cathedral at Sharjah where he looked at every single stone and molding and and sculpt pieces of sculpture and so on and managed to piece together the sequence of events that occurred in the building of it and who actually built it not by name but that he was able to identify the different Masons that had each of whom had very subtle differences in terms of the templates they used to carve the moldings and he could track these these Masons from from decades to educate through the building and shot created quite a stir in architectural history quarters. Here's our friend goals wait again. He must to spend again another twenty years combing through the records in Florence which still exist and put together a very fine story of what was going on during the Renaissance and on and on they go there about a hundred of these texts that I that I've used to piece this course together some of them are extracting very small pieces others fairly substantial ones this guy again combing through the records of the building of their side and giving us a fabulous picture as to how it was done how it was contracted and in fact once again what it cost more recent ones when it comes to North America the scholarship gets a lot thinner. And not so much in terms of architectural history but certainly in terms of building history. But here is one dealing with the building in North Carolina that was was really very good. So anyway the course came together. I'm still working on it every year I come across a new piece of information. And new discoveries of found. Now during the course of doing this. Doug Allen encouraged me I had actually been to. A construction history Congress in Cambridge in England and discovered that there was a construction History Society. Two of us calling from MIT made a pledge that we would start a branch in America that was easy to say not so easy to do it needed some some resources to be able to get it incorporated to get a five zero one three C. standing and cetera et cetera and. Doug was was really very kind in letting me use the money that I had raised during the continuing ed period to do this and this is resulted in the formation of the construction History Society of America and. Incidentally very interesting I think Georgia Tech has incubated two other prime society is over the years one is the P.M.I. the Project Management Institute. Not many people know that but that was incubated in the industrial engineering school and shot Society for the history of technology incubated in H.S. T T S H T S. OK And and so this is this is started. I've got some brochures here. The society puts out a well respected. Journal because of its efforts Georgia Tech as a lifetime member of the society so gets copies of these and one of these is on the shelf which I really urge you to see because there is a an article by myself on the building of the British Westinghouse and. Manufacturing plant in Interesting. And anyway some other stuff we'd be happy to have you come and join the society if you if you wish. Now let's look at some past and current research projects. First off then is something that was call and submitted to the another international congress on M.I.A. in the USA the quantity surveyor. Well when I submitted this think it was in Germany they said what is in my essay to change the title tune for doesn't matter but I reason I was interested in this field is that I was trained as a quantity surveyor in England and always fascinated me as to why quality surveying had never really taken hold in America and Canada and other parts of the world which it had in London and many other parts of the old British Empire. And also in Europe a kind of quantity surveying exists there and the so the research. Was first to recap what was. Was growth going on and in going through it all there discovered quite an interesting story as the as it says it was a close run thing as the Duke of Wellington said about the Battle of Waterloo. Because it very nearly came to that. Well the story of how the something developed in the United Kingdom has been well researched. The tipping point comes at an early stage of the let me just do this first sort of the title of the thing. You know just to insert this first is a letter from Christopher Wren to the Bishop of Oxford construction client obviously somebody who does know anything about construction. This is a letter that ran wrote in sixteen eighty one. It's amazing how you could you could modernize the language and be a letter that an architect or a construction manager could send out to. To a client today. And he says there are three ways of working by the day by measure. And by the Great. In other words a lump sum basis and then he goes on to talk about each of them as to what he thinks about them and he ends up by saying with he thinks the the the best way in this business is to work by measure. According to the prices in the estimate or low blood blah. And he goes on to say you must have an understanding trustee measure and then rather condescendingly he says there are a few that are skilled in measuring stonework I have bread up two or three. But nonetheless this is where the measuring profession begins eventually morphs into the qualities of a profession. I think his comments about by the great lump sum is an issue that has haunted us ever since the time that competitive pricing and a single price contracts have arrived in that. What is he said by the great I can make sure a bargain needed to be over reached in order that the undertaker for in things they are not every day used to they do often injure themselves. And when they begin to find it. They shuffle and slight the work to save themselves still a problem that mazing. And so. This situation in the U.K. then is is repeated in the in the United States. When there is the move to a general contracting system. Here which takes place pretty well at the identical period of industrial development that occurred in England as you know the industrial revolution in England begins in the eighteenth century runs through to obviously into the next century fifty years ahead of that practically anybody else American. Industry that's been developing in the early part of the republic. It really isn't until after the Civil War that the American industrial revolution really takes hold and at that time there is a big demand from construction and as for single pricing up to that time pricing had been done generally and contracting trade by trade. Nobody knew the price until the job was over and. And so it was very unsatisfactory it was very inefficient and so on. So we've now got the general contractors forming over the last quarter of the of that century and they turn around and say now if you've got to if we're going to compete for your work and we've got to do it a good price. We have to measure the work and if there are ten bidders. It's ridiculous to have all ten of us measuring the same thing right. Obviously this is what happened in the U.K. they said yeah we absolutely agree with that it should be the responsibility of the architect or whatever to actually produce quantities for you and that is something that didn't really begin to take hold in in the US and so the contractors continued to complain about who is going to do the quantities What a waste was occurring at that time and. The architect said don't look at us. It's not included in the fee. We're not going to pay for it and as a result the contractors go off and organize their own things but it's a much longer story than that. And anybody who's interested I can copy you with a paper that I wrote dealing with it but what eventually happened was in one hundred twenty one twenty two the a the A G C and the engineering Joint Council actually got together and produced this manifesto. They called it eliminating waste in estimating. An attempt to influence the owners to say listen if we eliminate the waste will be savings to you in in the long run on this and it recommended a quality survey system was that basically established at that time nineteen twenty one hundred twenty two an actual Association American Association of qualities of those was formed in last very long in anticipation that this was going to lead to the birth of a new profession but it landed bang with a thought. We're going to after I've gone through these five research projects and come back and say What are the lessons learned from each of them so I will come back to that next up. The James Stewart company general contractors. This is a particular interest in mine and the continuing interest. It is it is interesting that there is lots of literature on the great architects on the great engineers but I cannot think of one American book on the great American contracting firms and there have been many of them. Most of them having the beginnings at least from a historical point of view in that period I've just been talking about. James Stewart was. He was a. A mason Norn in Scotland. His father was also a Mason contractor. And when I mean I've got a slide like this in. There he has look at the face and that there's a contractor for you. Somebody you could trust right. Eighteen one thousand nine hundred two his father then is a Mason contractor granite Cory's there in Aberdeen those of you who have been to London. Take a look at the base of the the Nelson memorial in Trafalgar Square a great huge granite base. This was supplied and installed by Stewart's father. His elder brother and Harris the business is often happy. And in that time. Jay James. Interesting enough to change the spelling of his name to the American style from the Scottish star emigrate to Canada eight hundred forty three or thereabouts. And he sets up as a mason contractor in Kingston Kingston Ontario was the first who was the capital of Canada at that time until it moved to auto so there was lots of work going on then moves and also of course. James had the common sense that once the Civil War was over he moves to St Louis and sets up there is not just a contractor but an architect as well even that builds a very fine reputation he has three sons they come into the business. And this starts something of a tradition in American contracting of long range. Family firms that establish themselves and doing extraordinary well. By nine hundred eighteen is one of the top ten U.S. contractors active in that list of projects. They stayed up there mostly buildings but some like grain elevators for example they pioneered the use of reinforced concrete in grain elevators at offices around the country and in Montreal. James dies and you know to the sons carry on and the product they the company eventually dissolve sometime in the one nine hundred sixty S. I'm still working on piecing together just how it's demise did occur but it occurred as a very often happens when the last of the family died in one thousand nine hundred four of their about forty six. I think and. And then it began to slide down one of the particularly interesting things and I mentioned that article in the in the magazine there was. And stories was the steward had been involved with a Westinghouse. Factor this is the Westinghouse factory in Pittsburgh and the lower part he builds an extension to the foundry there. And does it very quickly and Trax Westinghouse is. Westinghouse by this time the whole electrical issue is a big one for Americans Americans are way ahead of most other people in the field and they got a lot of orders and activity in Europe Westinghouse design decides to build a plant in in England goes to Manchester buys one hundred forty acres outside Manchester in Trafford Park and decides is simply going to duplicate this whole thing without the foundry and other bits and pieces to it and and takes the Engineers plans over there they seek advice from contractors they hire a local architect and he takes bids from the contractors and he's quoted five years by the British contractors to build it and of course he rejects these he's got orders from. Up in Scotland for generators it's got it's got to fulfil these orders and this is not good enough comes back to America accidentally bumps into Stuart complains to Stuart about it. So says well let me have a look at the drawings he does and comes back the next day and he says I think I can build it in fifteen months you know and Westinghouse says Name your price as a construction manager to go over there and work with the Brits in terms of building it and sure enough off he goes Here is a picture of the. Of the plant in looks like it is identical to the one in Pittsburgh not there anymore in my that but he builds and he builds it in twelve months and it creates a sensation there are letters in the Times trashing the British industry how come the British industry can't do this and just one example of how it was able to achieve it was he could Jolles the masons who had a union limit of four hundred fifty bricks a day per brick layer. A bricklayer team and they eventually gets this up to fourteen hundred bricks a day and he goes on and built several other projects in England because now he's a star but eventually comes back to America and he just one story again will come back to lessons learned from these Santa Maria. Belfiore and Florence. Some of you may remember about three years ago we put on a whole one day seminar Frank will remember that the building primarily focused on building of the Santa Maria little Fiore and. The help put it together and in little piece on the background of construction in Florence at the time drawn from our friend Mr Goldthwaite and what I liked about this was that it demonstrated the capability of Georgia Tech to take a very round view of a piece of construction and of a building that made quite a difference because the building of it was quite a sensation at the time. And we had. A frank dealing with music at the time that we had Russell gentry dealing with the construction we had Steve also man dealing with the economic background and framework barrio car. With the architecture and with the building side of it as well and I think this was this was generally the people who attended I think thought that that was really something that was really quite good. The section of the fourth up this is some research I've just finished and is. Is a paper that I'll be presenting at the next International History Congress which is in in Paris. Actually it's. It's over July the third to July the seventh and. We complained to the. The French organizers to say how come you can put it over a national holiday and they said well you know it's all about classes we get runs and on the. And we thought well. The next these international congress is a triennial So the next one up in twenty fifteen is actually going to be in Chicago organized by a construction History Society. So we thought well we'll counter-attack and hold it over July the fourteenth. I don't imagine we will do that but anyway. This this particular paper is concentrates on two Crystal Palace this one in London that is extremely well known eight hundred fifty one fact of almost any building it is probably the one that has been most written about what it was being designed and built there were there were weekly stories in the in the London Illustrated News. It really caught the attention of the public people would flock to the site to watch it being put together and it really was quite an extraordinary piece of work most of you seen pictures of it. Of it before and will come back to some of the lessons learned. But the focus of this is not so much on the character of this building and the following one that was built in New York in eight hundred fifty three in fifty four also a Crystal Palace but it was to compare the framework within which these two were built the one in London was a major success chief a great deal of notoriety the one in New York was late over budget it leaked and so why would why was that the case and my co-author and I almost had to take a big leap of intelligence to figure out that the framework of the two countries industries and economy at the time were really quite different. Burton was almost at the peak of its industrial revolution. In America. It was only just beginning. And so the conclusions really are quite interesting. And here's some shots of some of the things that were actually done the the there are a lot of innovation of course in modular construction prefabrication unique ways of laying the glass and the roof and so on. Is the one in in New York a much smaller version of it of course but certain similarities there for probably one reason it didn't. Isn't that well known is two years it had burnt down and was no more. Eventually the Crystal Palace in London was moved to a site south of London and that to burn but it wasn't until nineteen thirty thirty five or thirty six. OK And then last piece of research is the one that I'm working on now is the electromagnetic pulse trestle at Kirkland Air Force base in Arizona and you may say well what on earth is that to begin with them. Why does it deserve some research. Well. It happens to be the largest piece of construction built in would not so much in terms of height or scale or with but the sheer quantity of wood. There are six and a half million board feet of number in this in this facility. And it is built the story behind it is that. In the late fifty's the Americans popped off. I guess it probably was one hundred ten bomb fairly high in the in the atmosphere in the Pacific and all of a sudden all the lights in Hawaii went tot. He was miles and miles away from her and actually determine that. The electromagnetic pulses that were given off in atomic explosions. We're enough to be able to disinter mediate a lot of the electrical control systems and so on so they were very worried about what would happen and it went through these calculations that if the Russians dropped a bomb high in the atmosphere at the Canadian American border virtually blow out all the trickle capabilities in the entire United States so they were very concerned. Initially there was not much we can do about it but they wanted to be able to protect the military assets of all the various service arms were given instructions to examine what were their core facilities and to make sure that these were protected well the force had a bit of a problem because of course the planes in the sky there was no way of being able to test these and so the idea was to build this trust or. Surround it with systems that would simulate the electric magnetic pulse. But of course it couldn't be built in steel or reinforced concrete because that would transmit the pulses apparently had to be built in wood and. So I'm sure an office building would There's not one piece of metal in it. I'll pass it around all these wooden pieces a bolted together with wooden bolts. And just parts those around that that actually hold it together and so we're working on that and the Air Force of in very helpful in opening up the. Their archives to to to deal with that. Well let's look back then at some of the lessons learned here. First off I think is as far as the quantity surveying is concerned I think the lesson to be learned. Is very clear. If the owners. Don't buy it it won't happen. And this is you know we can do in the industry we can come up with all kinds of dreamy ideas for improving things or even increasing our profits wherever it would be but if the owners don't the buyers of construction design and construction services don't buy it. It isn't going to happen. So one of the in for example now an interesting initiative is the integrated project a livery sounds good. The architects the contractors everybody's been working on it and well will it take hold. Some owners of bought off on it. We shall we shall see. So that's the lesson to be learned. I think as far as the Westinghouse Stuart is concerned is lessons to be learned of the strength of the family firms. There are still several of these left in America. Turner is one. To my knowledge there's no Turner representative in the company or if there is they're not at the operational as a management. Gil Bain is another one where Tom Goldman is the sea. And and so that's one of the strength of the family. And I think what the conclusions I drew out of why Stewart was able to build this this building in twelve months when the Brits said it would take him five years. Wasn't to do with technology didn't change the design in any significant way he did bring in a few technological innovations from America like. Brick lifts for example instead of guys with. Climbing up the ladders with the bricks which improve the productivity but it was the construction of fish and see came more from a better and intelligent management than from technology or design. That's why lean construction deserves your attention to be king to the students here deserve your attention and. As the. Introduction of industrial techniques into construction to improve its product over the Santa Maria Del for your A. I think they're coming back to that that was a competition as to how this dome would be actually built and there were something like a dozen responses to it and only one of them the one from Brunelleschi had a situation where he was using no centering. The owners then wavered on this. They were the two of them. It was so innovative that they were very concerned about whether it's possible or not but they bought into it a little timidly to begin with but eventually went through it with it all. It was a it was a fabulous success and the other the other thing is of course there's this sense that the college has this remarkable capability of examining specific invent vents of buildings from from every angle and I wish we could continue to do that and I'd love to see a series like. Great Buildings that made a difference or whatever being done once every other year or never. Crystal Palace is again it's the organizational brilliance of the Cheveley success of the British Crystal Palace and. And and an industrial framework that is capable of supporting it. Somebody once said about about the Crystal Palace. It couldn't have been built twenty years prior to this time and that was largely because one major component in that building was glass and the French and Belgians had developed a new system of cylinder glass that enabled cheap glass to be produced quickly in a much larger so. This then was common with the regular blown circular glass. The trestle it's difficult to know what conclusions would come out of that but I suppose they would be that if this is the equivalent of another of another run cold war. Just be prepared to build any crazy thing that the government decides to throw money at it as being something that will be argued to be in the defense of the of the country at large. Mentioned I'd just like to yes we're doing OK here quickly. These are again maybe a little difficult to read in my course I have the students select a paper they pick a paper of their own and work with them during the course of it to push them into the right directions in terms of doing research. They're only turn paper so that they're not. They're not deep they're not. Dissertations or anything like that but just look at the variation of subjects that are covered here and what this does is illustrate what an incredible field construction industry offers to scholarship and research we have for example four major cathedrals have been addressed and in this. This terms of grouping some Peters because he's drawing Cologne which Rebecca one of my students is back there is dealing with Santa Maria Belfiore again. And what have I missed that not redound to Perry. There are there are others that just are worth pointing hard engineering challenges faced by the Continental Army really fascinating subject the construction of the Mount Rushmore monument Now how on earth would think about. Writing and realizing that there was a story to be told and perhaps some lessons to be learned from that particular piece of work. Nigeria's post-colonial construction industry written by a Nigerian student. I want one. I rather like the second from the bottom in the George Washington Bridge New York New Jersey an engineering curiosity on time and on budget. As for you all know that's not very often the case. OK Just a few concluding remarks then. It does then after a new field of research it is not but it is not any research going on in the in the arena course have been for many many years in the society of architectural historians at least seventy years and that is a viable subject that is taught in every architecture program. There is a public works Historical Society the civil engineers A C. has a history and heritage society a.p.t is a relatively new organization for the preservationists A.I.A. has a historic resources a society of industrial archaeology and one third up on the right there is a pretty unusual one which is they historic construction equipment Association of America that has collections of old old construction equipment and machinery and and devotes itself to that so I think our society is hoping to and has already made links with many of these two to begin to look at things are more holistically that sect. Opportunities research I've met. And one of the targets of the society is. To see if we can introduce the subject into the curricular of construction and an engineering isn't going to be an uphill battle to do that but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try because we think the value of introducing it will be far greater than the effort to get to go ahead and do it. Erases the need for text no cortex textbooks. Again the society. One of the plans is to basically take my course and turn it into a textbook. But with the addition of more technology history which I don't cover to any great depth. And you know somewhere in America there is an opportunity to develop a center for construction history studies. It would be wonderful if I was a lot younger. I would love to take this and shake it and actually establish it here and raise some funding for it. But we shall see. Anyway so I think that finally remember what Andrew Seynt said not a bad idea. Figure out where you are before you begin to tackle what you want to look at so. Thank you very much. Dumbstruck. I hope you will get there. I've got some of these construction History Society brochures here if you would like to take one of those and let me. Yes. Yes there is there's a fabulous book just been published it. So my bill I had this three thousand years of designing construction history but it's actually focusing largely on engineering history in tech. One of the reasons I don't teach it is I'm not an engineer. And so my grasp of it is not very strong but it is true that the interface between them particularly in more recent times of the interface of technology with the process of construction I mean we're witnessing that right track with i T. and what effect this is happening on the industry. Bill how this is the author is a member of the society yes and there is a copy in the reference section here. There's a great thick book and is a fabulous resource from that point of view or you're just an alum. I get the occasional student in from from over there so to speak and. Yes No no it's a it's an excellent point in going back into those early days. The possibly the largest cost. In total between and it was cottage was actually bringing the materials to the site. So there was a huge incentive to use local materials and so generally in these big cathedrals they would they would try to find a forest nearby where they could you know they could get their wood from a quarry nearby or if it wasn't nearby that it that it was it was close to water because the water transportation was was much much faster and safer than road transportation. No I haven't seen. It's a sort of thing in find an article about here or there I would imagine. But you know the other thing is interesting when. The Virginia Company sent its first settlers to Jamestown one in seven was at sixty No seven. They were no force and they included a board there were I believe the number is something like six carpenters two brick layers and one stone mason. Well the brick layers in the stone mason had nothing to do. OK Because when they arrived here they suddenly stood and saw this incredible sweep of primeval forest and so for centuries. The major source of construction materials were. And the carpenters were the leading leading trade for years and years and years which is kind of rather interesting in relation to the trestle that went back to using one. Very much so. Right. Yes We we deal with that particularly the day of the rise and eventual fall almost of the unions and if they are construction you can see the reasons why. Well you know like thank the libraries the library archives co-sponsor co-hosts of the research for me and they set up a new thing read and video site so if you want to look at this research former you want to look more real. I very well by and I'd also like thank Brian for coming today and sharing with us a life project and doing great things when they're showing on time. Let us know that you very much like next year. Thanks very much.