[00:00:05]
>> Things in his career. One of those was he would keep executive officer over the probably in the company. And I think it says a lot about him that he was running for the record what it is the character of the core of the Haitian old boys and women is the Boys and Girls Clubs of America in addition of many other.

[00:00:30]
People very passionate there should be leadership and ethics in our lives and he wanted to kind of reinforce continue with. And when he came here he wanted to do something of significance and so we established this letter shit. And we do this once a year this is the 24th time.

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And we're to pick a topic that kind of a contemporary topic of today of the day and I think this topic today from Valerie to his son is very appropriate for our time. Valerie he went to graduate school at Purdue the University of Tennessee spent a long time in Bell Laboratories in Murray Hill in New Jersey but she also had kind of a parallel career in American chemical stuff he said many leadership positions including being on the board of directors she does a lot of career things including.

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Seminars and sessions and careers in transition for the New Jersey section she does a session on life after graduate school would be a good topic and today she's going to tell us about why there are so few female faculty members in some stem fields. After she done there's going to be a reception for her it will be over in the 40 s and keep building on the lower level so it all joyous over there you know you can just.

[00:02:10]
Go. In and then we. You can walk down here and. So join me in welcoming buried today I. Thank you it's a pleasure to be here and thank you for inviting me to be this lecture to them. In the year 2000 when I was asked to attend a workshop on why there were so few women and chemistry faculties I was at Bell Labs so I didn't fit that mold but I had been pushing for women to get leadership roles in American Chemical Society and working hard at that time and so on they said why don't you go to this and so I went to that and my head just filled with questions of why are women going to the wrong schools aren't there enough women everything else inside said I started asking questions and no one had the answers and so what you're going to hear is the beginnings of the work that idea and after I did some little studies I went back and did some others and that's what I will discuss with you today to study so I think you will find relevant one of them was done a prospective look and I think even though it's not today's yesterday's data Things moved very slowly and I think the things that we found back then still exist today to a large extent so I think everything is relevant in what I'm saying today so let's start off Sol what's going on.

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There all right paw. I'm doing right here all in nothing is happening. I do that and write your rule 3 times. Fun. Right now thank you Ok so to get us all on the same page because I like everyone starting off to saying what's going on why are you complaining what's the issue about well what the issue is take a look at the stem fields and if you notice there's a problem up above I have them ranked by the percentage of female doctorates and you can see over here the change from the years 2006 you can see these fields have done very much better than these fields down here.

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Why are these 3 fields of engineering and bio engineering Why are they all conforming with the rest and that's already addressed. So in talk of ours and told to pour their flexions of doctoral graduates in chemistry on their graduate training so we waited for them to get out of school and work for a number of years and then ask them to look back at their experiences of graduate school because they get a better perspective that when you're in it you can get away and find out what they valued which they wish were different and the next thing we do is I would talk about factors contributing to the dearth of women faculty members and that's from another survey that I had done.

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So the 1st survey it was done it was conducted in 2003 it was 898-8292 ph d. chemistry graduates from that Penn University cells show you them in a 2nd these are the respondents that we had. What you will see if we had a response rate of 32 percent that we had in our group that was right and there were 2 chemists and 2 colleges and the psychologist said that when you get this number of high response rate the findings are valid they are representative of the whole saw that I can tell you bought that x. is what were the schools and if you look at the lists these are pretty prestigious schools so we're talking about in fact these schools what I did after I came home from this conference in 2000 is I want back and went to the d.d.r. in the directory of graduate research and look to see were had the faculty members gotten their degrees and what I decided to do is take the faculty into by a half looking at the more recent higher from 139 on some looking at not the influence of older schools and I found out that exclude Purdue but all the rest of the schools are the top 10 producers of faculty members at the top 50 schools in the nation these are the big time producers they produce these schools that are up here actually training 60 percent almost 60 percent of the faculty members.

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So it's a very small club of schools that are contributing to the faculty and then fact I carried all way through all d.g. our schools bench I built up a table and found out that it was characteristic right straight through for the 150 schools for her and 37 schools that are.

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But these 10 schools are very valuable because they are you can now understand these are very influential schools because there are training the next generation of chemists we threw in producing university not because I want to produce but because that was a big school we want to get to 70 skulls schools are small so when they get a get a big public school in there so we sue and produce Plus I get half the production to produce so that helps so we do they would participate so those are the schools.

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And we started we asked them could we send them on a survey and they sent it back a blind answer so I never knew where it came from and we asked people about their undergraduates experience and if you look over here. Over here you could see that the women got less help for the professors or reached out less over here in the same and went to others more so tell us me here and here we'll hear that the men an undergraduate level move all better to use the system.

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The women missed out on valuable information even on the undergraduate level and that's that's the point I want to bring back again to the women where they are how they bell you did in terms of research because that's what graduate school is about to in research if you notice the men in the women were bought the same amount of undergraduate research the one difference being that women did more and industrial laboratory but one would certainly say that going into graduate school the whole group as a whole had good training that could not be a factor.

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So then we went on and we asked them about their experience with their advice or their dissertation advisor and we found again that same pattern were less than for men. And you can see this over here should I have used they use different criteria so when you got to the choosing a major professor who women did not have sufficient knowledge to make a wise decision in fact it was so on why it's now 14 percent of the women decide to change advises you know how serious that is attributed to take it.

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In terms of going on in school all women again did not reach back to get information and they did not get information out of a poor Stock Advisor from their dissertation advisor and firmness of is something you might say because this is a common feeling is that they get no help from their advisor at all in terms of jobs or minimally clip of important thing here is to see that women are not getting valuable information they've got full relationships with the people in power and it's all of you know how important it is to have a good relationship with your advisor and where on the outside.

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In terms of. Assistance men rated higher this type of assistance they got if you go it's over here there's a consistency right straight across were all is there was properly and valuing dad doing independent research work of a project at impact them in all gave higher reading so that have access to equipment again the women were always much slower in the reading but the real problem is that both of them had issues these numbers better for is neutral.

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For is neutral and this is telling you right now that these were not good relations that neither gender had really good relations with their advice or so women morsel and they had very very important relationships. This I think if there's any slide that I showed it just is the one that I think is the most striking We asked them to evaluate their graduate experience and as you can see men 54 percent Lisa at the top schools in the nation never thinks of the schools that got the money they have got everything offered them the men 54 percent were dissatisfied 70 percent who women.

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What message had they learned in graduate school it would give such a poor Mark to their a valuation The other thing that was interesting in their met with groups if that they if they're at Betty support group the women would have joined it over half of them so what you are doing here at Georgia Tech is the right thing to be doing so what you have what I believe with this and tells you very here is that expectations and grad school were not met in chemistry find schools in the nation.

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In terms of postop or opening a drink of water excuse me for a 2nd. In terms of postdocs 65 percent a little chose to post UK based upon scholarly scientific reputation were women only 45 because women report they were geographically constrained they had a mate who took precedence of where they went to school so they did not have the same choice or opportunity in terms of statistical difference there was no difference in terms of postdocs 60 percent of them did.

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They help to pour stocks the duration of 2.7 years and but it looks like what we're seeing over here is that women are in a non preferred place because of the partners relationship or job. In terms of how they were valued. By post-doc advisors out this is again probing at this relationship with the person who thorny you can see over here if we're back you know.

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What have I done. I did something horrible Ok I was here all right. Ok great here what you are seeing go over here is that the research the Zemin the professors were more interested in the min than were in the women in terms of listening to their ideas getting more publications hearing about their ideas the women again were in a different role.

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They had again poor relations with their advisor whether it be a dissertation or a postdoc adviser so is the man in general where I think this is really telling us is that there is a significant amount of dissatisfaction in fact we asked them to look back 29 said they would select a different field 43 percent of the women and 28 percent are men wish they had chosen a different Some feel.

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In fact 37 percent of the women left the fields remember this is after the 7 years they have put a dent in the school all the expense involved in training them. So this is a huge best of all expense for trainees people and they're walking because of on happiness saw there's a lot had this and chant when it was their education and they what they left the fuel in walked so.

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Now you can say value the things you found I bet you nobody in there were supporting evidence maybe you're the only one maybe you got a bunch of cranky students that have to do that so let's take a look and see what other people have said about what's.

[00:15:54]
So where I could find out it was here again. Women reported feeling uncomfortable impro changing other students for help their career aspirations were taken less seriously their advisor had lower expectations for them women again were a field they were not given credit for their own efforts other people took it other males probably took it so basically what she is reporting here is that the potential women was not recognized over here and some more work that was done is.

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For they have fewer interactions with your advisors or the male students than the group. They're better at their advisors have a better relationship women were on the outside again the women felt over looked under support in the collected by their advisors as you well know these things all contribute to career choices and this certainly would not contribute to a figure will career choice in chemistry and what they did this is another classic study of this is of in 2012 it's this study is this study over here is cited repeatedly it's in the Proceedings of the National Academy and it's gotten a lot of publicity there is hardly an article that goes up which doesn't cite this article because it was so disturbing because it was built on the presumption that men and women in academia would not have biases and when they reviewed resumes they would not allow gender to be a factor and what they did is a bare and a complete study who they looked at resumes of they were complimentary resumes and just flipped back and forth with the names and what they found out in the pen the book was written there if it had a male name.

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Both men and women preferred that candidate and that was the shocking thing to them is that even the woman valued the men's as it was the dental course things they did all kinds of different These are psychologists so they get all kinds of things with their resumes to know it in the being is that both the men and the women faculty members inside it's raided those resumes which had a man's name on it period and they actually offered to give greater help to them and give them more money women again were left outside I think as I said this is a very very disturbing article to everyone because they want to believe that academe we are free we are free of bias in another study talked about it in graduate school but then.

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We said that they felt isolated and discounted in graduate school in missed getting valuable feedback Barry Marshall on herd whereas ideas expressed by barrels were greeted with the. Same thing I was telling you that we found so we were not whistling in the dark with arse findings so all but basically a morning on to the 2nd one now leave the sheet up here for a while what I have put up here are quotes that I had I heard when I went to 28 schools and talked to department heads.

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It all the chemistry in him and he going to partner heads and I asked them about the hiring of women and I heard things that I thought you would enjoy hearing is the 1st of all the pools to small you know what you're asking for is you know I thought why.

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I love the one is not to understand an organic chemistry is the Mansfield. Did you know that or get it chemistry is masculine. Value we only hire from the very best we're a top school we only hire and there aren't any women coming from there sorry. We've offered them jobs we always get turned down I heard that many times we'd like to but you know the problem there women just aren't qualified for our school we have standards.

[00:20:41]
So these are the kind of things and then also bigger university professor that's a tough job that really isn't them for a woman. Don't these come to greet you a little bit they should. So what I did is I went to actually went to 9 more schools of this but that was by trial run to find out worst people were and how we could handle the questions and they are these 28 schools I did the same thing this is best as I You Could we had discussion groups and we had survey questions and everything was as uniform as I could make it and so I went to school the 20th schools and you'll see there are there were 30 faculties were 13 percent women these are 10 year or tenure track women were 30 percent and chemistry was 10 percent.

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In chemical engineer in the average was $3.00 women per department. You could classify the department just to get a feel for what are we talking about where you noticed some departments have gotten and they have more than 4 women but actually 8 had 2 or few women so the number of role models for the women undergraduate for the woman graduate students was a very small pool.

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Who were the people that I visit and talk with you could see a substantial number Enderby it was almost 900 people that I sat with we had discussions groups we had as best as we could we hit single gender groups I would be with the students graduate students the females and then the male separately the same thing was true of the Faculties except at some of the schools the faculties were so large we divided the male faculty into older and younger we did not have to do that with any of the faculties of women so to give you again grounding you understand what are things look like in chemistry and as you can see over here over time of the last.

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18 someone here it is the look the latest that I get from an s f. You can see over here is the back to this degree is you know it reached the peak of a lining down a little bit the doctorates is coming up with this is kind of troublesome right here I can tell you that is this a fluke or is this a real trend.

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The post-docs substantial number or lower than it is not representative of the whole it's holding and look at the faculty it's crawling along and it's going to take an awful long time for it to reflect the gender distribution of the Dr for unless. This continues down this way this continues down this way the banquette otherwise it's going to take many many years to mirror the doctor and pull the elder ball pool let's look at Kemah engineering the same way you can see what's happening with the bachelor's again come on now.

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This is the got to be the sense of the world Ok I'm back and you could look I was going to flash Ok you can see what's happening with the bathrooms degree if Donna happy picture for women coming to nearing in terms of the numbers this is not going the way we'd like it to go because that green line is going down that's got to impact later on that orange line and that is going to impact the red line so we don't have a what you would say a roll rosy picture for Kevin engineering either based on this n.s.f. data these are plots that I had I did I generated by self this is the table builder and this self so women are opting out and care engineering.

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Let's take a look at the comparison of chemistry in terms of postdocs because either the people who are eligible for the academic position you can see the huge jump or of women that were available all along the way when the percents are lol of women post-op approval is not small you can see it's much smaller and in chemical engineering but we're talking about substantial numbers of comparison the numbers that were hired.

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We look at the selects never told you about this 10 schools that were so select if you look at the 2nd board down here it says 885 women graduated in this time frame of 2008 to 2050 that is not a small pool we have got women getting doctorates at the top schools in the nation the pool is not small and yet they were not being hired you can see what the numbers are in terms of the system professor or higher during this time the percent female and male you can see we are better numbers are better than full professor Yes but we're talking about small numbers 79 women were higher and there were 885 women who got to be Greece so I asked them when to leave questions in the discussion group so why are so few women on faculties the majority answer as many had no idea no idea whatsoever and those who had an idea said right away it's the full size absolutely support 5 it's the job.

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Just too difficult for women the environment is not supposed to discuss in the environment women like and some of the women said women face script nation. But you had no by and by the people generally in control the males to buy in to solving the problem and when they were disinterested it best the male answers were female apt these are direct quotes but we've done our pockets are less qualified.

[00:27:21]
The pool is too small the competition is intense you can attract women. Then the wrong thumb feels we have to Laura standards to hire women we're just reflecting the culture on the outside we're min are firm they are competent they are able women are kind loving. They don't see them in these powerful in love.

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For the job don't you realize they're life work balance it's difficult yes it is it's difficult for everyone to unsupportive environment women penalize for having children these are their words not mine there are no Napoli's I fell in Portland or no one that Cody's there right Pete alluding to the fact is there might be some problem with hiring but once they're here it's all fair and that's others said no there are inequities right straight through but there was there was a distillery a thought that it's just plain Iran that women will run the promisor were open door when it comes to women.

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With female faculties told me they are referred to by their colleagues male colleagues as affirmative action hires that certainly cannot make any person feel very good to be referred to as our affirmative action hire. Degrading for any human being to be called that classified that the women felt devalued marginalized the women felt they were less respected to males they faced subtle discrimination regularly.

[00:29:17]
They felt isolated in Styria type. These are not happy campers. The women are expected to work harder to achieve anything. And some of them poor and they were pressured to be masculine to be more domineering and to warn their voice and to project law out when that was not her nature and the other thing was troubling is that they did not have direct access to discretionary funds with this really says is they didn't ole when money had fallen that there was money available anything at all they were never any drek line was information they got information secondhand that they were not part of the team not part of the healing that all.

[00:30:13]
If you go to us is a constant pattern here a consistency fuel fed the apartment is that old boys' club and that's replete in the literature always to for him to chemistry departments as all boys clubs they complain that search committee scrutinize women more carefully the process is to have some subjective it's what's to be objective it's mostly based on criteria that agreed upon a had a time and then the applications mess the against that criteria that's not done.

[00:30:52]
They see women as risky hires you don't hire her and she probably would get Mary Mitchell leave us so why take the risk in sending him with a man but probably that criteria is that news for man it's only used for women and evaluating criteria the men said they absolutely believe that I but I believe this was said Sincerely The men said there are no and gender differences everyone's treated to say they saw none of the problems that women were facing either as graduate students or as faculty they were not aware of any barriers the women were facing did not know why the women were unhappy no idea at all.

[00:31:41]
User comments made by the students and the post-docs again they told me again Ed this all boys club is a very common thing they felt that it was being run by this group and they were on the outside of the group they were not in the field. The if they thought they were after they had seen what they had seen the way the women were treated at their school they had lost interest in going to teach or there are one school they've been turned off why would they want to join a group like that when That's how peers are treated by peers at a university it had such a damning effect on them it dissuaded the percentages are high the men by the way they they all both groups that went down women and men and this is the work work by others the Been went down slightly in terms of deciding not to go to an AA one school the women went down by over half of the people who Misha said they were going to want to go teach here are one their exposure to the behavior of faculties was such that women just lost interest so even though we've got people from the best schools and the best training we can given the nation you can see what has happened to the women they said it's hard to balance family life in the demands of a job like that it's true for both but probably for a small falls more on the shoulders of women in terms of family and they sell that is the problem they thought that for years school their industry would offer better work balance ability that you couldn't do it because of the long hours of people in academe.

[00:33:30]
And are one schools and so they felt they would better off there they saw fact they were marginalized and paralyzed for having children and they could see themself in the same role so why would they want to join that team. They received little guidance I told you before for their postdoc and biases and for their pieces advisors and they were not encouraged to seek careers are once they were not encouraged so guess what happened they didn't go all went to the male students they were just basically untroubled by the low numbers of fact in the room when I showed them the slides they basically stronger so to shrug shortening their shoulders and said So what is the way it is back.

[00:34:20]
There was total indifference to the plight of women some of the men told me says we're all our departments really really working to hire and who are they who are they telling that telling that getting that information from their advisors are saying we're really working hard to hire but we can't hire any women.

[00:34:45]
And you know know why and they'll tell me again going back to this Eric ocracy to how we only hire on merit and you know we're movement are 2nd class that's the hidden agenda there women are 2nd class it's the repeated very sad message that I got over and over again in the beginning when I did these interviews it took the energy right out of me because I did not expect to see or hear what I heard because come on this is a long time from when I listen school they are receiving a book of the men brag I'm getting so much help in fact one person Warren I can't keep the professors out of my lab they're constantly in there I did not have one woman write that down.

[00:35:36]
Not one not one. And they felt they were getting pressured to pursue an academic career and the men were not the women. What some schools have done I learned because they responded back and what have you done is they approach actively gone out and then if I had strong suits way before that looking at their 3rd year and graduate school they started tracking people outstanding people and develop their relationship with the students when they were in their 3rd year 4th year invited to been got to show them what a wonderful school would be if you came and came to our faculty what we would offer in terms of an environment the stability environ for you to develop and that they fostered a relationship they established a welcoming respectful collegial environment and that's extremely important they critically looked at them selfs and said What do we have to do to attract the best people knowing that women might be one of the best people out there you certainly are going to attract them if you don't have a collegial environment.

[00:36:54]
Because we asked the women what did they really appreciate when they looked that important to them or one thing was the collegiality of the department the environment the respect that is shown by the faculty members to themselves and they could sense that went away if it wasn't collegially to want to join that team that was not what they were in it for.

[00:37:19]
They want a walk of being respectful Department in fact they wanted so much they were willing to forego financial incentives if they could get the better environment that's there or driver being in a happy environment respectful accepting Department rather that money. It's a very interesting factor we assume that all people are motivated always strongly by money but obviously some people are strong more strongly motivated than others by money.

[00:37:57]
When I got done talking to the graduate students it was those were really very very tough sessions. Sometimes women when they started talking about their experience in graduate school they started to cry and I was an African crying questions the thing that really has absolutely shocked that doll I'm talking about remember to get into the schools you got to be top drawer person to get into you know those top schools and I was shocked how demoralized they were really disappointing and I can't tell you I mean what I'd leave the room and I get alone very common for students to come up to me and women students come up to me and say well really truly I'm really smart I really can do things I was top of my class at name would mention school name a very well known school I really really do have I really really belong here and what they had been beaten down by their invite her so much they were losing their own self confidence in their abilities I found that very depressing this was not when I was in school this is now with the sad part they were very very up they had no idea what they were going to do because they had planned them going into our one doing research and they had now been disillusioned they had no idea what they were going to do in the future they felt isolated many of them told me they're the only woman in their group The Been were constantly research shows or making fun of them sexual jokes bad just bad language prototype I mean I endured when i was our producer and back in stone age we had one man who had the filthiest mouth in the world and he had a violent temper.

[00:39:51]
And when things did not go well we all heard rages a violent temper would go on and on and one time he went on and on some ballad I went out of the room and all of a sudden one of the fellows grabbed me by by neck and said Get back in the right night if you do this he knows he's want to see is driven you out of the room so I went back in the lab and I listen this is rage for a half hour with filthy little dirty language should never have existed never should have happened I cannot tell you how many times when we start talking about how they were teach and made fun of by their fellow group members.

[00:40:30]
No one stepped in to help them they went to the advisors the rich don't help pass very very sad these are this is tough to hear these people talk like this. They felt harassed and they lost confidence in themselves. The shocking thing is that I talk to female factory workers now remember most of the schools had maximum you know like 4 in the most that would have 4 or 3 stood they never met the female faculty members had no interaction with themselves not only did they not have any interaction with the males she had no interaction with themselves many of them thanked me for coming to their institution to pull the women faculty member sigil there for the 1st time.

[00:41:18]
Now there's something wrong with the picture where outsider brings all the fact leave together a women faculty to talk they obviously didn't know each other at all it was just very rare and I felt very baffling being in the atmosphere was not collegian you could tell they were these were islands most of the women were islands one of the questions I would ask though is who's your safety net who you go to when things don't work.

[00:41:45]
As planned was grants or anything and it just dumbfounded looked at me like there isn't any there are more like islands there was no atmosphere no team that was fear of we could do it I will help you along the way nothing so I found this very very personally depressing because these are all very talented individuals.

[00:42:12]
So all that was I backed up by other people Ok so here one job offers were done extended to women if they were married or had a or husband have a good job because they knew if the husband had a good job the woman will quit anyways if he was 88 was talented they knew that he would be moving on so why hire her because we know he's could be moving on but you never hear the cause argument when you're hiring a man what is his wife doing if she take him away that's that's trivial what only was this criteria against women.

[00:42:49]
This is very interesting survey by a Wis where can women science and they surveyed 125 leaders and they found that 84 percent their judgment was questioned in their own area of expertise they had not received the respect for what they had done it was question whether they really were knowledgeable where the minute assumed their knowledge of all until they showed they are not knowledgeable with the women it is they do not have the knowledge and have to prove it over again they have that much different criteria reduced.

[00:43:28]
83 percent approve the work hard to prove themselves the always for assumed to be more junior the faculty position they have had to prove their evidence of competence $73.00 had to cut their ideas it off. A credit to somebody else and it's the same key I hope you see there's a patter with the students are experiencing it's no different than Would people in the field are experiencing it all and it's the same picture would repeat over and over again.

[00:44:10]
So basically what I'm talking about is in finance and injury women are isolated that sense of lack of camaraderie outsiders the oil of all boys club you can read on from there we've got a problem in science and engineering I hope I think you have a thing today evidence that we do have a problem.

[00:44:36]
How to go back just to refresh your memory this is what chemistry in chemical engineering will look like. What's going to happen in the future. These are 1st time graduate students it's not those curves about growing they're not going in the right direction. So basically in conclusion I was saying is that we have to embrace diversity and all its means we have to develop a respectful environment by a factor of members for each other for their students and student to student it has to be universal within that they have done studies on the thing and they have far out that.

[00:45:18]
When you have gender diversity in a team with more like 21 percent more likely to succeed and what it's ethically diverse 33 percent. Employees to fill a voice with her are nearly 4 percent 4.6 times more likely to feel empowered to perform at their best level and is that not what we are asking of everyone in graduate school to formatter best love interest in government are leading the way at AK and they is dragging its heels.

[00:45:50]
Away for change has to occur I believe we have to create cultures of equity and respect. Training nuff occur in terms of diversity inclusion awareness the impact of unconscious biases and the use of perspective train this is where you put yourself in the position of the other person how are they see the problem how do they feel when they are in this problem you get a better understanding a worry you're coming from we don't have a lot of that right now we need to develop a diversity inclusion strategies address problems obviously the visor student relationship his car ride why he have to do something about that and it has to be a critical review of all current hiring and recruitment practices for women to become in a situation with a mirror at least the doctor all really granted in 9 states in their various fields so we needed to health by and by everyone on a bomb this is not being made by the Chancellor of the president it's got to be needed by and I believe by the suits.

[00:47:04]
To show respect for everyone and by the faculty to show respect to all to themselves to their fellow all faculty members and to the students I have done a study and I have this is done in terms of on a bit there was an effort into the year 2000 you might not remember that to see the all too young probably was mit study which showed that women were not being treated very well at mit.

[00:47:32]
And convene a meeting and what happened there is that the meeting looked at the data and said All we need more than the data is probably not right we got it we can't do anything about this is all with the DNS and the higher ups on presidents of universes top universities and after arguing for a while they came out didn't say the data was right and that was wrong but they said we'll go back to our institutions and remove barriers.

[00:47:57]
And I look 17 years later to see how well they have performed versus the top 25 universities and there was 0 difference between the 2 of them how many from on top a warm to more having the president proclaim tomorrow we will hire women and all that is duck and work we need to have by and by all faculty members and all students that we will have a diverse respectful environment a collegial environment so our only way out I want to be honest my colleagues that hall after I retired from Bell Labs I joined Seton Hall as an adjunct and I work with thermal as a body the chemistry department and the other 2 were the psychology department airborne once a Dean wanted Assistant Dean are selling it they've got on the way people did the surveys the a.c.s. was extremely helpful and gain the participation of the schools we had advance grant we also got money for the 1st survey for the communal Harry Dreyfus.

[00:49:00]
And we got some money from Roman Haas because they really believed what we're doing and the Committee on surveys and the atheist helped me on that and now I want to thank you for your attention I appreciate it thank you. Choose. Yes. There's. Also. This. And. You know I'm sorry would you rephrase your question I did not catch the drift of it.

[00:49:58]
So I feel like a lot of us are success. Stories. Right these guys start work. Well there are so few female professors It's hard to really get enough data to to say something to that effect that's the role of a member or a look at what some schools the 2.

[00:50:26]
Some with 4 I know are that you just can't these numbers are getting too small. Yes. Well. You. Ok what I would what I'd like to do. Is I'd like to go back and really look carefully at all the fields of visionary and go back and look at chemistry again in material science and do the same Paul all over again to see what is going on in terms of graduate school environment and see where there have been changes and possibly look at that if you're going to look at schools that have a lot of women there are not a lot of schools that do I mean there's Michigan is leading the way right now in chemistry as you might know I think there are a ton.

[00:51:58]
30 some odd percent but most of the schools that you know are way down and so again we're playing with small numbers it's hard to track. Yes you can see this you can see I showed the the Right now I think the women are around 25 percent or something like that.

[00:52:18]
But. If you look at some of the prestigious. Right now and I will try my best I tried to do some correlation studies and was an able to do it right then I think this is what I'm concerned the bar and what I'd like to do that I do not believe would exist to the best of my knowledge is I would like to know how many women are applying for positions at the top 10 schools or top 25 how many applications are being sent in.

[00:52:52]
And people talk about that but no one has the number I've looked up and down I've talked to in the south and it appears that that number is not gathered if it is gathered no one knows where it's getting together but that would be an important number to know.

[00:53:08]
But it possibly could happen is that we could start looking at how I produce this got a lot of women in this department too so there are some of the bigger departments that have a lot of women to see where there is a difference and that might be able to be worked out if I can get funding for such a thing to do with that yes but that's a very good question yes.

[00:53:50]
That's right these are hidden biases. That's right. That's right. That's right so. You have a well the point is hidden biases are so evil you're absolutely right and that's what was so disturbing to the scientific community when the study came up with these 126 professors all preferring men to women I think there is what we do in the American Chemical Society is I was very involved in in terms of increasing the number of women going towards is we make people aware that there are hidden biases and therefore you need to have criteria I have a time carefully and done a fine what you're going to use in judging something and that helps get rid of biases if they'd had criteria those 102126 factors criteria in the value and in those resumes of those students I think it would have gotten a very different answer if they didn't have any criteria they just looked at them and they just are that actually the name flip the more took the same resume that had a boy's name put a girl's name on it and they swung to the other resume I mean it was a very clever way they did with this whole thing I think the key to too in terms of search committees this stuff is the idea of having criteria agreed upon ahead of time which they will use to evaluate we this is what we have set up in terms of the awards for the e.c.s. is criteria must be agreed upon before you look at one nomination.

[00:55:40]
And that all nominations have to get looked at you cannot not apply go through the process and that nomination and it is dramatically change the number of women getting awards. That. Best practice. Just right. Here the number. One type. Being totally legal you know help there to be any sort of I've requested.

[00:56:31]
Or or incentives that there are people who are really doing great so you are meant for the fact. That. If there is one. That's no. Good. You know you need to change it or. You're. Right you know. That's a difficult thing to do so are there I'm not aware of that I will.

[00:57:06]
I will keep my eye out. I mean I guess best as I can to get what's currently out there a lot of this is in the field of psychology believe it or not so I'm trying and I would continue to try but thank you for that question that's a good point.

[00:57:31]
And. Worse Ok I didn't you know I was there was really only. Ok. Then there are some studies done on some companies yes there are out there by Sun has brought this to please a mechanical engineer and he has brought that to my attention a daughter to my attention on Monday afternoon.

[00:58:03]
With a little late I needed to do it but he assured me he had read some of them and. Some company if you know as I did not put all companies I just said companies are there are some companies out there there are some universes I've told you of to produce doing very well out of looking get big are ones produced in Michigan are doing very very well in terms of hiring women there are here but there these are such small pockets it's very disappointing.

[00:58:35]
Well we've come to be in the hour and we're going to have a reception over in the 40 years that will. Be 3 level so please join us over there and not like you a small poke in the preseason or your visit to the thank you thank.