Yeah.

So it's because I want to make
the point to begin with the point that

I have no pretenses all about knowing
what I'm doing on this topic.

I mean.

And if I start sitting down.

I'm much more your equal on the scene as
I stand up we're going to be easier to

tell apart when I'm not wearing a green
shirt I probably should have done.

But but the point I want to make to
you is I'm much less confident about

this because this basically is
not a seminar about research.

This is a seminar it's not about teaching.

It's a seminar about the contents of
the classes that you've been in and

the contents of the classes that you're
delivering and that the issue then becomes

is what you're teaching is what
you're being taught in those classes.

Is that relevant.

Does it does it make sense.

I mean you've assumed when you got
into the classes I mean I assume

they're fussing around with this
remotes all talk without the remote.

You've assumed that that they know
what they're talking about and

they believe they do the faculty.

But I wouldn't trust the middle all.

OK And that really is the issue because.

I don't think anybody knows.

What's happening.

Now that's good.

I'll take the next one.

Go ahead.

The the main thing I think to do to begin
with is to compare chemical engineers

with farmers.

Which where you switch.

Good.

You know this big fuss at the moment
because because it's the centennial of

chemical engineering and so to a certain
extent you could you could imagine that

you're looking at chemical engineering and
you're comparing it with farming.

And if you look at the number of people
involved in farming of course it is

dropped dramatically
over the last century.

And while it was dropping while there were
fewer and fewer people connected with

farming the amount that they produced
got to be greater and greater.

And so why was this happening
it was happening because

the idea is that the way
in which you raised crops.

Basically basically became more and
more efficient.

Why would you not want that I mean you
want to make things more efficient you

want to produce more
food with fewer people so

that that when my grandparents
great grandparents were farming.

That was one story and now none of my I or
none of my children are farmers right and

everyone expects that sort
of thing that that's them.

OK Now how do you know this isn't
true of the chemical industry.

I mean basically basically you can
have a chemical industry which has

become more and more efficient at
producing commodity materials and

the the spectrum of those
materials is narrowing every year

the pont sold nylon not because they
thought it was a growth business.

They sold nylon because they thought
they sold the nylon business.

They sold the nylon business because they
were sure it wasn't a growth business and

so if if that's the case where
does the growth come from.

And that's what's fascinating that if
you look at students from Minnesota and.

Look at where they went to work in one
thousand nine hundred seventy five and

compared it with where they went
to work in two thousand and five.

You get a completely different picture in
one thousand nine hundred seventy five

eighty percent of the students graduating
from Minnesota went to work for

large chemical companies they went to
work for Exxon Mobil and Shell and

Bay S.F. and
Dow now less than twenty five percent.

OK.

In one thousand nine hundred seventy five.

Only a very small percentage under
fifteen percent went to work for

corporations that had
a product oriented focus and

now from Minnesota more
than fifty percent.

That's in the norm is change.

That's an enormous change and by the way
the amount the amount in here that's

labeled consulting that's everybody who
isn't in one of those two businesses right

so that includes professors excludes
people who work for the E.P.A.

It includes people who run video
stores whatever I mean that

that's just a receptacle for
everybody else.

And you look at this and
most people say well

that's that's cause you're from Minnesota
and remember three M. stands for

Minnesota mining and manufacturing so
what it means is you just got thousands of

chemical engineers making posted you
know but but in fact that's not true.

The distribution of jobs is the same for
for Minnesota as it is for Berkeley.

Well but for politically for Berkeley
everybody in Berkeley is in Silicon Valley

and so they're all making Microelectronics
that's pretty that's their product.

OK but it's also true for Purdue and I
don't know if you've ever visited produce

producers in the middle of a corn field
produces the least attractive least

industrial kind of a kind of large
university that you can imagine and

the same percentage you're
going to product oriented.

Mrs No no you say what.

But but wait.

I mean.

Isn't isn't Nial isn't polypropylene a
product and then you have to ask yourself.

OK.

Well what do I mean when I say product
oriented businesses and right away.

You realize that there are three
major types of products.

There are commodity products they're
the ones that dominate your curriculum.

They are their products
that are made in quantities

of ten thousand tonnes a year and more and

those products are made to minimize
cost the keeper commodity products.

Is there a cost nothing else matters.

Now you can say well that's
what we that's what we study.

Yeah actually that is what you study
that's what you study especially in

the process design class because they're
your objective function always is cost and

the assumption.

The assumption is that when you enter
the market the price of the product

will not change which
may not be true either.

So that's one type
the second the second area

is molecular products and the way to think
about those systems is to think about

drugs drugs are the easiest example and
probably the most dramatic

thing there is to recognise that the cost
of the drugs they may seem expensive but

the cost of the drugs is
not what dominates them.

What is important.

There is the speed with
which they can be developed.

One vivid example was
from a graduate of one of

my classes who was the lead
engineer on making celebrate X. and

celebrate still holds the record for being
the drug that when it came on the market

sold a billion dollars worth in the
shortest period of time it took eight and

a half weeks to sell a billion dollars.

Now how much process optimization.

Do you suppose was done on that process.

When they knew that every day

they took they held that drug off
the market was worth that much money

the the woman involved said
they were making it in buckets.

They were making it.

They were stirring the buckets was shovels
they were doing everything they could to

get that stuff out the door because they
knew how much money they were going to get

he was first to market tends to have more
than half the sales for those of you who

have been bishops in this direction a good
example of this at the moment is by Agra.

OK now the third kind of product
is the hardest to understand

because these are products.

These are products whose
advantages rest on function.

The the consumer that the customer
buys the product there for

some specific benefit the vantage I always
think of the example I was thinking of

most clearly issue polish I don't
care what molecule gives the shine.

I care about the show I and that's
what's important in this product and so

cost here is not that important.

Speed is not that important.

But what's important in this case
is why I'm buying a shine right.

I'm not buying a particular distribution
of wax molecules and pigments.

So if I have that kind of product.

How does this change.

How does this change how I would proceed

with this different types with
these different types of products.

Now the first thing to think
about is commodity products and

this you're familiar with.

One of the things you can ask is.

Have you reached an asymptote
in the development of commodity

products are you as good
as you possibly could

be because if you are then there's
not a lot of potential for again.

And if you look at this sort of plot
this suggests the height of a transfer

unit just some sort of measure of
the the effectiveness of the apparatus.

Yes.

It suggests the hype of a transfusion
plotted versus the year

that that type of of
process was introduced.

So for example ration rings which some
of you will remember are based on

the discarded next of wine
bottles in the Rhine valley.

This comes in somewhere perhaps in the
late twenty's and thirty's and gives an H.

to you of a couple feet and

now with saucers structured packing
now into an entirely new phase

because it's off patent that gives
gives values down around half a foot.

There is nothing in these data
to suggest that we have reached

the best way in which we could
manufacture commodities.

It's still worth working on commodities.

It's not going to be a growth area.

But it's still worth working
in that general area.

So do I think do I think
you should continue to

work on commodities Yes
absolutely absolutely.

To give you an example I get a lot
of inspiration for for doing.

Separations from the pasta counter.

If you've ever looked at the pasta.

Haven't you done it.

It's absolutely remarkable if you go
through the pasta counter you can find all

the types of packing that are used for
gas absorption if for

example you want to cut
you can see all of them.

I mean these are almost
exactly Paul rings right.

And for folly those little
bow ties really are close

approximation of barrel saddles and
so forth.

But you can also see potential advantages.

These two boxes of pasta
both contain one pound.

But this box is smaller.

Now why is that smaller will you
know the answer to that it's

because random packing is not going to
give you the same type of close geometry.

OK And so you're not going to be
able to pour the pasta into the box.

Are you and expected.

If it whereas lasagna noodles.

Yes those are good the Sanya noodles
lasagna knows they're going to fet

Now you begin to see the ideas aren't
you're going to these are going to fit and

and you're going to get a more gradual
flow of the sauce through the lasagna you

won't have any channeling and

in the same way if you were to try to
run mass transfer operations there

you will get more effective mass transfer
using lasagna packing if you look at

the current structure packing
it looks likes like lasagna.

Then you will with random packing.

So there still are there
still are advantages for

commodity materials that they
stick tool is unit ops and

the real risk is feedstock and feedstock
of course is why the Dow chemical company

basically has sold half of itself
to the Arabs and they plan to move

the ball cup there commodity
manufacturing to to the Mid East.

That's going to be a long commute.

If you expect to work for
douse commodity chemicals.

Now if you look instead at molecules and
you go back to the speed.

What is the difference between
commodities and molecules and

again I think it's easiest to
think of drugs the the obvious

case if you look at penicillin is you
look at the molecule it's much bigger

than a conventional commodity chemical
This is much bigger than propylene and

it's going to have a variety of chiral
centers in the molecule as well

it's a much more sophisticated molecule.

In the same sense there.

This is the second example
of this sort of model do

you know what this one is the premier and
you know yet.

Ron Ron is nodding his head.

This is this is.

Is normally women know
about this more than men

because this is hormone
replacement therapy.

And this is this drug is the extract
of a feedstock called P.M.U..

Do you know this at all.

PM You believe it or not stands for.

Pregnant Mayor you're.

OK this is concentrated horse piss.

And I almost wonder who discovered
this I've made a serious

effort to find it I mean can you imagine.

I mean I can imagine this very slowly
somebody saying you know there's

this crazy old lady that drinks horse
piss to get over a hot flashes man

I would I want to meet that woman
because I mean don't you this.

I'm not making this up
you know this is but

the other thing to recognize
about drugs that is important is

what dominates their development.

And to illustrate this some of
you probably have seen this plot.

Have you.

This is the Menorah plot the well known
when our plot dates from the eight hundred

sixty S. civil engineer and it's often put
in books on how to best present your data.

This is Napoleon's march on Moscow

remember which I was taught you probably
taught to write in history class.

You're basically taught this was
in the normal military disaster.

And if you look at this.

What's nice is here is the route
of Napoleon's army and

the width of the line is
the size of the army.

OK so here he starts out at the Polish
border and he marches to Moscow.

And then the black line
is his army coming back.

And down here is
the temperature in degrees

centigrade of that was so on the way back.

It got almost minus forty.

OK which is even for
someone from Minnesota kind of cold for

winter camping now.

Now what I want you to
look at is the effect

on the army Napoleon
leaves with four thousand.

I'm sorry four hundred thousand and
seventy two men and

he returns with four thousand and
nine hundred.

Let me say it again.

He starts with four thousand
four hundred thousand

seven hundred four hundred
seven thousand there.

God and he winds up with four
thousand nine hundred no.

That's a terrible disaster isn't it.

By the standards of the drug industry
that campaign is the success.

You understand that.

Because if you have a thousand to run
in the drug business you are ahead

of most existing pharmaceutical companies.

Now what does that tell
you as an inference.

It tells you I think.

That engineering is not
important in drug development.

Now it may be important at a Ph D.
level but in terms of making drugs for

for use what's going to matter
is the discovery of the drug.

I'm not talking Ph D. stuff.

I'm not talking education I'm not
talk an intellectual frontiers.

I'm talking what skills do undergraduates
learn that can have value in industry and

what I'm saying is the presidents of
drug companies are going to be chemists

because that's where the big cost is
I know when you go to generic drugs

when you go to generic drugs.

It's going to be a different thing and
maybe cost then has it has value but

the real key here.

The real limiting step is drug discovery.

Microstructure.

If you think about microstructure

you can think about relatively
simple kinds of things.

You can think about for
example tooth whitening strips.

Now I mention this because it seems
to me almost a trivial business

that did not exist.

Let's say ten years ago and
now it's worth a billion dollars a year

its development was really
affected by a Procter and

Gamble chemical engineer
three years out of school

who now has become very successful as you
would suspect a billion dollars is a.

A lot of money and and

the idea of just having something
that changed the color of your teeth

that type of tooth grip bleaching
had been done by dentists for years.

But to devise this in the form of
a Band-Aid that you just put on for

an hour or
two that that was a dramatic breakthrough.

Now how is that different than
the other types of products.

Well maybe the real difference is that
that the real reason that this isn't

developed more easily is because the
development of these ideas is so split up

and different groups of people developing
different products in this area.

Don't don't talk to each other very much.

It's like the Balkans the people
in the dairy industry don't talk

to the people in the coatings industry and

both are a strange from the packaging
industry all of these areas tend to be so

separated that any common science
tends to be rediscovered again and

again in these disciplines and
that is retarded the development of

this area so that if you look at this
you're really basing things more

on recipes than any kind of
science the science is missing.

That's where the risk is just as
the discovery is the risk for drugs and

the feedstock availability is the risk for
chemicals.

So for these micro structured products
the science is the part you worry about.

Now.

If you're going to set out and try and
teach people how to do this kind of thing.

How would you do that and and
the main thing is you don't

necessarily do it with the tools that
you developed for commodity chemicals.

My father was also a chemical engineer and
when I teach thermodynamics.

I can take problems from
my father's assignments and

give them to my class and
the class never notices the difference.

OK.
No maybe that's not it disadvantaged.

Because after all one could do that in
geometry right those problems have been

but but let's not pretend that this is
something that is changing rapidly.

Are these tools that you're being
taught for for commodity chemicals

are those tools going to be valuable
when you look at other product areas and

I think to look at that you have to
ask yourself what are these tools and

you can put these tools into
different types of categories.

There's a group of tools that's connected
with chemical engineering which are kind

of empirical and there's a group of tools
that are connected with chemistry and

biology which are more molecular.

And there's a group of tools
that are connected with physics

which really which really treat
things more is continuous.

And.

Different different careers
are going to take different blends

of these three different areas.

Can you see how on truck.

One of the things that fascinates
me is the different nations have

different profiles.

The U.S.
is very heavily towards the chemistry or

in the germans toward the mechanical when
I've taught at the University of Cambridge

in England I was startled to discover that
two thirds of the chemical engineering

students that I had in their last year
had no chemistry past high school.

OK so.

So you have very different
kinds of national profiles and

here I don't I don't know where.

The French fall on this for example
the French seem to be splitting which

which seems which is
probably a disadvantage.

The U.S. is probably moving in
this direction right because

because we're becoming more scientific
in order to include more biology and

this this slide by the way is effectively
is especially good for dealing with

visiting committees who always want
you to put more of something in

because when you draw it on this this sort
of coordinates you realize everything.

You put more of one thing in implicitly
means you're putting less of something

else because we're maxed out in terms of
what we can have students handle and so so

that I think is an interesting way
to show people that difficulty.

Now I would argue that this
set of skills is pretty good.

There's no real reason to abandon
those set of basic skills.

I think what you and I were taught a poor
couple of these different types of design

but I think still go differences in with
design that are important to recognize.

Now to show this.

I want to go back and talk about
a conventional process the zone.

And in the conventional process design.

The real keys which are shown here
are are is is sort of idealised as a four

step sequence and I've used that suggested
by Jim Douglas who was is retired

now from the University of Massachusetts
because I find this the easiest.

Douglas argues that your first step
should be to decide if you're going to

have a batch or a continuous process but
when you're making commodities.

The answer is always
a continuous process so

it to a certain extent that's
not much of a question.

Then you draw a block diagram you draw
inputs and outputs you draw it here

comes some chemicals in there
go others and stuff like that.

And then the third thing is
the reactions aren't complete right.

I mean we're not in that lovely
idealized chemistry environment anymore.

The reactions aren't complete and so
we must add recycles to the process.

And then finally you want to build in
separations and heat exchange networks.

This is what Douglas suggests for
process design and for

process design the key question
is how are you going to make

the product for
product design is very different.

OK because.

Now you're deciding what you're going to
make not how you're going to make it.

But what you're going to make and
that's a very real distinction.

So first you need to decide what does the
customer need which also implies who is

the customer and second you want to
have ideas that will meet that need.

OK.

Then third after you have the ideas
you want to choose the best idea

probably you can choose three or
four best ideas pretty quickly and then

finally you want to actually manufacture
you want to select the best idea and

then you want to manufacture
the process and this of course is this.

Now when I explain this
to engineering students.

They sometimes say but
but that's marketing.

OK now listen to me.

If you remember that absolute fool that
used to sit next to you in soft more

physics.

That guy was so dumb that he didn't
it didn't know the difference

between a plus sign and a minus.

And you member him and
after about three months in physics.

He gave up and he quit and

he went into marketing and
now you say this is marketing so

I'm not going to do it and you're
turning over your future to that fool.

I mean how dumb can you be.

You.

You can't you can't dismiss
the this area just because

it doesn't involve enough
differential equations.

This is this is an important area and

you're going to have to
think about these aspects.

What's a good example of this where
I could try and convince you.

Well I mentioned to someone earlier today.

The.

C.M.A. any of you know about C.M.A.

calcium magnesium acetate this was
a chevron product or other way.

Chevron tried to convince the Department
of Transportation that C.M.A.

was a better alternative.

For de icing winner roads than salt and
the reason was it caused less corrosion.

That's true.

It also caused a lot less the icing.

But it took the civil engineers and
the Department of Transportation thirty

million dollars to rediscover
the freezing point depression.

OK.

So now if you.

I'm not making this up that
you didn't know about this so.

So now if you look at who de ice is
roads with what think about it for

minute the civils the civil
as you understand civils

have a different gas constant for
every gas.

I'm not.
This is true and.

Charles Charles is saying it's OK And

the reason is because they calculate
the volume per pound of gas and

I remember once instead of the volume from
all I remember once pointing out to one

eminent civil engineer that the gas
constants the civil used for

hydrogen and oxygen were in exactly
the same ratio as their molecular weights.

And he looked at it for a minute he said.

Gosh he said.

You're right he said.

Do you suppose it's true for
the other gases.

OK yeah.

Now.

What what's going to happen here.

What's going to happen here is if you
don't use what you know you're going

to allow that type of well let me tell
you what these things are in more detail.

Perhaps that's easy.

If if you think about if you think about

the start of this think
about needs as being

rephrased the specifications to do any of
you know about the I.B.M. They all passed.

For P.C.'s I was think of this
when I'm on an airplane and

these guys open their P.C.'s and sit
there and I think by God they're doing.

Lots of work in and I was there
playing cards or but but the I.B.M.

male cast consists of taking a P.C. and
a nail and a hammer and driving the nail

through the P.C. and then seeing how
long it is before the battery explodes.

You know but that's OK Now I
want you to think about this for

a minute because there's
implications in this.

If if it explodes in
a microsecond you're cooked

right then pc's wouldn't be allowed and
if if it explodes

in a couple hours then your eye because
there's time to land the plane.

So you know right away.

It's somewhere in between those limits.

OK.

Now.

Now the next thing is how can you
calculate how how long that will

take what basically it's boiling water and
all electric chemical reactions if you

look at them all of them really
have the same gives free energy per

mall I mean it changes maybe a factor
of two but not a factor of ten.

And so just I mean why do you think
people use lithium batteries they go

higher up in the periodic table if
they could in order to cut weight.

OK so.

So just take that that Delta Ci what's
the fastest reaction you could have to

diffusion control you know the geometry of
the battery any software can calculate how

long it's going to take to tell a battery
blows up in the answers about a minute.

So basically you need a separator
in the battery that will shut off

any short that occurs and it has
about a minute to do it that that's.

Marketing people can't make that
calculation you can do it without really

taken a deep breath.

That's an important distinction.

That's why engineers have got to
be involved in setting up needs.

Ideas.

OK I need it.

I need a person for
this idea is the main thing about I.D.S.

is is you need you need to have
who should I pick here's a person.

You need to have a lot of ideas.

How many do you need.

Well three M. claims that you need it.

About ten but

that's just because they're going to have
a different colored post it note and and

Du Pont claims you need a thousand
between three hundred in a thousand.

And that's because in the commodity
business you may well need this.

But but actually in most cases
you need about one hundred and

this brings us back to the to
the children story of of.

Of how many frogs do you need
to kiss to find a prince.

Did you do you remember the story.

You know it's the Princess goes out
in the woods with a golden ball.

You're remembering it now you
want to fill it in from there.

You want me to keep doing it right.

OK so now you can giggle but
I just I thought OK So

anyhow the ball but the princess
loses the ball and the Frog gives it.

You could be the princes do that for the.

The frog gives the bad back

on the condition that that he get to marry
the Princess and the prince says yes sure.

Take the bone goes home and then two days
later the Prince to the frog shows up and

demands his bride and

the Father always the father's a heavy and
there's always insist on the marriage.

And then the princess kisses
their married the princess

kisses the frog who turns into a prince.

Is this it this story.

I think is sort of cross
cultural isn't it.

I mean yeah every so.

So the question is how many frogs do
you have to kiss to find a prince and

the answer is about one hundred
what you want is that about right.

What you want is a permissive
you want to permit.

Francis right.

You don't you know you
don't want a princess.

That's going to take
a bet on just one frog.

OK so.

So that's the second thing needs needs
what's the Kate you've got to reduce it to

specifications ideas.

How many frogs must you cast Now here's
the third time at this point it's a bit

like having faculty resumes if you have an
open position you get about one hundred.

The resumes.

OK And and you look through and you know
half of them are clearly unqualified So

you get rid of them but but
then you get down to maybe

ten to fifteen and you read those
pretty carefully and you decide.

Given your department in this
situation here are three or

four that really looked good and
now you have them in for interviews and

now you've got to select
among those three or four.

OK this is a hard step.

And and the important thing here is that
in chemical systems when you're trying to

select from three and
four cheapest may not be best.

These are the cooling towers
of the Savannah River Site

over here near Augusta.

OK And and
those cooling towers those cooling towers

basically are used to get rid of excess
heat that comes from radioactivity and

I point out that
radioactivity at that site

is is not from atomic power generation
it's from making nuclear weapons.

So you've got these terribly toxic
compounds it turns out most of

them aren't that bad.

Because while they
are extremely radioactive and

dangerous in that sense they
are they are not very water soluble.

Exceptions are strong from ninety.

And even more cesium one thirty seven.

OK.

And the cesium one thirty seven is
especially dangerous because it's stored

in concrete tanks that are past
their design life time and

are starting to leak and
the minute they lose one of those tanks.

It's not that bad but you will have
to evacuate the city of Savannah for

three hundred years or so
so this is this is an item.

This is something people think about and

they've tried to separate these
these compounds and in this

case I described earlier today there were
three ideas that that looked a propre.

For Separation.

One was to carry out a precipitation

a selective precipitation of cesium
using a technique fennel Burridge.

And that selectively precipitate cesium
it also precipitates potassium but

that's not a problem.

You just don't radioactive
it don't cause any trouble.

And you can concentrate the radioactive
waste a factor of ten thousand.

So that's a very attractive way to set

that was that was that
was quite expensive.

I think I calculated how
much it cost per person.

And it cost about about I think it
was three hundred dollars per person

in the country.

And this is big money.

That the second way you can
do it is you can is you can

extract it using a modified crown compound

the kind of compound that Donald
cram won a Nobel Prize for.

And and that the trouble was at the time
we were looking at these alternatives.

There was less than ten grams of this
compound available worldwide and

the cost was about twice what
the cesium Tetra fellow Board was.

And then the third way.

What sounds stupid you go down
to the hardware store you

buy all the ready mix concrete
you can lay your hands on and

you mix up the end you make
one big concrete cow pie.

And you put a soldier on it to
guard it for three hundred years.

I mean not the same
soldier you change men and

now it turns out that once
the cheapest that's under a dollar.

You know the one that we chose
that was chosen the extraction

the most expensive one of
the cures that because

they expected so much kickback
from the state of South Carolina.

First of all doing that was
legal under existing law.

It was not necessarily legal
under the spirit of the law but

it was certainly legal under
the LET IT letter of the law.

They expected so much kickback that they
thought they'd never get it through before

the tanks leaked.

So they basically spent that amount of
money because they thought it was safe or

they went with extraction because.

Because they knew how
to do extractions and

the precipitation had
some other disadvantages.

So cheapest isn't best.

That's different than
I'm used to thinking on.

And finally manufacture I won't talk
about manufacture very much because

you pretty well know about that we
come back to that if it is a problem.

Now if you have the sequence that
needs ideas selection manufacture.

Which which step is the hard step
because that's the step where you and

I need practice if we're going to be
effective in this broader marketplace and

my suspicion is that for
different types of products.

The answer is different.

So I have to look at
those types of products.

First of all for commodity products.

Manufacturer is hardest and

that's what you've already been
doing in your process design class.

That's why you don't spend
time on these issues because

if you know you're going to make propylene
you're right away into this process.

OK there's no need to spend
time on those earlier steps but

if you're not making propylene
then it's hard to imagine for

example you're making
home oxygen supply units.

Have any of you seen these they're
absolutely remarkable they're about

this big.

And they cost about three
hundred dollars and

what they do is produce a gas
stream of Ehrenreich with oxygen.

So if you have someone who has emphysema.

You can give them oxygen
at home that really is is

is pretty good and eighty year old
women maybe are going to want to

throw around ninety pound oxygen
cylinders that would be cheaper.

But this sort of unit is more convenient
and the unit comes with little

bottles that you can fill up
if you want to go to the mall.

They are small enough to be carried
you would never carried this out.

If you were going to make
oxygen commercially would you.

You know how you're going to do that
you're going to do it by desolation.

OK cryogenic distillation but
you're not going to run cryogenic

distillation out in the kitchen where is
this type of unit fits in the kitchen it.

If you have a unit ops lab these
things you buy off the shelf and

they're absolutely astonishing.

They're absolutely
remarkable little units.

The only difficulty is that
they're fairly noisy but

what the hell old people
are deaf anyway right.

So.

So that's not much of a problem.

OK.

So for
devices cost doesn't matter anymore.

Convenience matters and unit ops is still
important and what's typical is not

going to be distillation the work course
of the commodity chemical separation.

Now it's going to tend to be things
like adsorption or membranes by the way

membrane units have been driven off
the market by the sets or opinions.

Now if you go over here and look at
molecules there that the key was speed.

I think the key there is
still going to be unit ups.

But the reason for that is because
what engineers are given is

not the discovery part where the engineers
are given it's OK we're ready for

phase one two three clinical trials.

What we want to do now is we want to make
an effort there is clinical trial for how

you make that you've got the lab books of
the chemist who made the compound right.

The trouble is he will have
used meth link or I'D and

methylene chloride is a potent carcinogen
used meth link or I'd then the F.D.A.

to approve your process and
you can't change it.

After that.

So this is the stage where you want to
think about substituting call you in from.

Ethylene chloride for example.

This is a stage where you're going to
have to make that sort of decision and

you've got to make it very fast it was
really interesting last year to try and

set up a process to do protest around.

Just because you look at the patents
all the information is there but

you're not sure which solvency or

best the information about which
is best is certainly not there.

OK So I think that's sort of saying here's
a good example of that this is the other

thing I want to mention any of
you know about Zoladex Soledad

is an injectable drug that interesting
way to Astra Zeneca it interesting.

Lea has two markets one is for
breast cancer.

I'm sorry.
One is for prostate cancer.

And the other is for fertility for
women who can't conceive.

I find it astonishing that that
same drug would be effective for

those two purposes and what's interesting
about the drug is there it is and

it's a peptide what what's interesting
about the drug itself is eight hundred

million dollars a year that
amount is forty six kilos.

Now I want you to think about that moment.

This implies no continuous processes.

It implies no dedicated equipment.

This is no optimization you're going

to have campaigns to make this
amount of drugs aren't you.

Your periodic we're going to make it and
you're going to store it.

So it's completely different in the kind
of technology that that I was trained to

think of most of the time.

OK it's Gore may cook and.

Now the final issue is about
micro structures and here.

It's clear it's not clear
to me what you use.

One good example is is the icing
in anti icing of airplanes.

I don't know if you do this much here but.

But I've been stuck in it
at LAN I must confess.

OK so
if you'd be ice that's the easy part.

You just spray stuff usually guy
calls on to the airplane and

the glycol ments melts
the snow off the airplane.

What you may not know about
is anti icing compounds.

You know about these.

OK.

And the icing compounds are gels that
you spray on to the wing and they

change the flow around the wing enough so
that the plane cannot fly with them on.

So if you've been sprayed with these and

you start down the runway
that plane cannot fly.

I think about this every time may be OK
not the D.-I series it's the any ice years

and what happens is these
compounds are rigged.

They have a yield stress and so
when you hit about sixty miles an hour.

All the jealous years off and
for those few seconds.

You can fly takeoff.

Is not remarkable how would
you make one of those yet.

Do you see what I mean it's not
unit ops that matters now is it.

It's and it's not really
measuring re ology of fluids which

you've already been given it's
anticipating what Ryall a G. you'll need.

It's much more of a transport
phenomena sort of thing so.

So what that suggests
gets even more bizarre.

In other cases of panic this didn't do.

OK.

Are we did we lost those.

OK I'll skip to this.

OK now.

My microstructure microstructure.

Are a problem for de icing fluids.

But they're even more of a problem for
food.

Ask yourself if you want to increase
the supply of the world's food.

What's the easiest way to do
it you think fertilizer but

that's not the easy way
animals animals like steers.

Are seven percent efficient.

Imagine you had a chemical
process in which ones.

That was seven percent efficient what I
mean it takes fourteen pounds of feed

to make one pound a steer and
thirteen pounds to ship.

OK.

So what you have is what why do you.

Why do you bother to run the feed which
is perfectly good food through a cow and

the answer is because you give it flavor
and texture OK if you can fake flavor and

texture you have an enormous
commercial opportunity.

So how would you do this.

I don't know.

I don't know how you do this.

Maybe you put in some sort of
transport phenomena models but

the main thing is vision which
are the slides that wouldn't project

vision you understand you
can duplicate paint colors.

That's easy.

But you can't duplicate what
people call the hand of textiles.

Or you can't duplicate chemicals.

OK chemical Sensis smells.

Tastes people don't know how to do that.

Now perhaps it's easiest if I end this
talk by telling you about the CIA exam.

Did you know about this exam.

You know the book Soul of a chef.

This is from Jonathan Keller sort
of a chef book you know that book.

Charles.

He has in there an exam which is
called The Market Basket exam.

And in the market basket exam.

This is not the Central Intelligence
Agency this is the Cullen area Institute

of America CIA.

OK in the market basket exam at four
o'clock in the afternoon they bring you

a laundry hamper with food.

OK And this was the contents of
one of the laundry Hampton's.

You get this at four o'clock in the
afternoon and by eight o'clock that night.

You were to have dinner ready for ten.

OK now what you think of that.

You can see different aspects of chemical
engineering courses in the US for

example you.

You cannot just cut these guys in half and

hope that you've got two vegetarians
right because it's dinner for ten right.

OK.

So so how you use these things
how you use these things

is is going to determine
your success in this exam.

But clearly there is much more many
more solutions than one many more good

solutions bad solutions to and and that's
what I think we have to get used to.

Once you get started in the process
working on product design

that really is going to be the Yeshu.

So what if I told you.

Two years ago I went to an American
Society of engineering education being

which I don't must never
get it was interesting

chemical engineers are not well
represented at those meetings.

The people who were represented
were corporate vice presidents and

research heads from roughly forty
five different U.S. corporations.

Every one of those people.

Had read promised Friedman's
book The World Is Flat.

And every one of those
corporate vice presidents was

was saying to the professors.

What are you going to do to stop
me from moving my work overseas.

In other words what can your students do.

That engineering students trained
in other countries cannot do

that was the question time after time
vice president after Vice President.

The world is flat
General Electric has gone

down just sold their commodity business.

OK.

You know in a situation like that.

As as somebody who's teaching
students my job then is

how do I add value to my own students.

How do I make them ready for
jobs that are not going to depend

on feedstocks or low labor costs
because if I can't do that.

My students are going to be in trouble and
I'm not going to do that by teaching

them how to run stage distillation
of propylene propane.

So if I think about how to do that.

I think I have to take them back and start
them deciding what they're going to make

more than how they're going to make it.

OK I think I need to to
make them understand

that choosing between technical
alternatives is often a critical

step as it is for for
example device chemical devices or

as it is for molecular syntheses.

And I think for microstructure years.

The key there is going to be the
specifications that you originally write

down how shiny should it be.

OK.

How how.

How can I do pick a color how can I keep

the taste of beef and
make the beef from a different material

and I think teaching students not not
how to do that for a specific product.

But teaching my students how to begin
to approach those problems in general.

I think that's the challenge
the educational challenge which is in

front of me and
in front of you thank you for listening.

Thank you.

Yeah sure.

This is hard to think about is not.

I mean because it's so different.

How should you start to
think about these things.

Well I think the main thing is is to
think about this value added business.

What do you know that somebody somewhere
else in the world doesn't know what

are you going to be better at and and

you have enormous advantages
to think of right away.

For example the infrastructure
in this country is much

more effective than it as other places.

I remember teaching at
the National Lab in Poona.

And on Thursday afternoons
the electric power went way down so

they simply had Journal
clubs on Thursday afternoon.

You don't have to worry about that here.

Maybe in Houston but not here.

OK so.

So if you if you have that
infrastructure that's an advantage but

there has to be something more than market

you understand

one market.

Well is that you market.

Yes.

Yes go ahead.

Not so

good when.

It's essential that right.

This that and the other advantages
as long as you have an election or

property protection your manufacturing
costs should not be be that that.

Compelling.

That's right.

I couldn't agree more or less

the losses that maybe

the campaign then next month run again and
again.

I think that that bus is there.

Turns out to be very
medicinal chemistry clever.

I wouldn't discount them.

I think the difficulty comes when you
go beyond let's say five to ten grams.

OK now.

Now what do you need for phase one
trials often ten grams is enough.

So if you keep if you keep the if
you keep the engineers restricted

only to phase two in three clinical
trials that's a pretty small role.

OK please please keep in mind that I'm
talking about about bachelor's level

people I'm not talking about research
from cures or anything like that.

I'm just talking about what skills.

Eighty five percent of my students
go to work after four years.

OK I'm talking about
that eighty five percent.

And they aren't necessarily the dumb ones.

I'm sorry go ahead Charles I believe.

A great one getting by right.

Well might have well paid.

I'm going to figure out what one would

like to work for

grad world.

What you would.

I want to do what I like to
give the problem not the way

that the comment is that that we
should give we should we should

encourage students to make mistakes and
to give multiple answers to questions and

and that's absolutely.

I think that's correct.

I think the issue is how do you do it and
I think the answer it.

One answer is you do it fast.

You want to give large numbers of problems
and have people make mistakes rapidly.

Because once you remove cost as
being the primary objective function

then the details of the calculation
are much less important.

Well absolutely absolutely.

Or.

Cost them.

One and appropriate.

Cost.

For the.

One on one of

those losses.

Staying with the farm example.

There are some cases where
technology is developed.

For for.

The commodity chemical business
can be very valuable in in

the pharmaceutical business one vivid
example I believe are the scheduling.

Protocols developed especially
by Ignacio Grossman.

Though those tell you if you're making.

Well when I was working for
the Upjohn company for example we made

four hundred eighty products in contrast
with Exxon chemical who made nine.

But Exxon chemicals sales
were one hundred times ours.

And that shows you that shows you
the difference in scale that can happen.

And what you say is correct.

OK Go ahead.

You know for their own profit on it

I think it made them with me something to

think about then I would
write them with a day.

Rather than writing or
you know where on that right.

You write late.

You know history really laid them out

with them like them like you know think

about it like we are all
of them that again

I hear you.

I would suggest however that if you went

towards a product area you would not
find yourself disadvantaged yet.

And because the other people in
the class are either going to be without

the strong technical basis or with a
strong basis but without much experience.

So so I think I think you're
penalize in yourself.

I think your education is more
flexible than you realize.

Yeah I would think that that's all right.

I mean if you had thought about everything
they asked you probably shouldn't be

interviewing with them anyway.

What are you going to learn from a company
where you already know the answers.

I think there's a second corollary though
that design classes as as a group for

the faculty are substantially harder to
teach than other classes because they

are less structured and I don't know
how you resolve that piece that's

a major piece of a problem
you've really got to work

and even shoveling off as
much as you possibly can and

getting getting departmental support
as much as you can imagine it

still is is hard work and

I'm not I'm not wanting I in my case
in my case I think you know well in my

case I think it's a question of developing
materials that are commonly available and.

And those are not currently developing
are not currently available.

OK.