My pleasure to. Study. A little background here. That. You are. Really two of them one that's really. Material Science with you it's just. That. We're. Talking. About the same thing just summarize those images for this same thing on. Earth like a structural. Structure. Thank you very much Ken can you hear me now yes I don't know if this is working is the is working OK because I can't I can hear myself here great thank you very much for inviting me Todd and David they get. Expected but there's some. Of Us The kids are doesn't work. Then expect people to go for you to come here for me but but thanks for coming and I'm going to talk about what the what has started to bother me because in the half ago a group of us mature science which we call as inverse methodology is in material science and this has got in two different directions and it's primarily based on microstructure presentation microstructure. Zation and representation of the processing path how we can link microstructure to property and. That's strange with it and so this means that we want to find methodology is that would link in microstructure you examine using electron microscopy techniques X. ray diffraction to get some data from these different techniques based on. Hope sophisticated you get to get these types of information that you're from microstructure say the three D. data or two data or just two point functions from scattering data X. or diffraction you want to relink it to the properties maybe magnetic properties mechanical properties optical properties and. Then you want to also be sure that you can use those properties based on this linkage to design materials that can perform for some specific tasks maybe you want to material that has some specific range of magnetic properties and conductivity or you want to feel SR that you want to have better mechanical properties and that the that brought us to the originally that when we applied this we applied this to for example if and tips for the material systems that would work for even tips as a starting point later on we got three people primarily concentrate the microstructure design materials design and we called going back because in general the process is you have a microstructure you examine it in your laboratory you measure me getting maggoty properties you measure conductivity you measure thermal properties and then you have you have a database and then you say well I'm going to pick this material of that material but if you have a set of materials properties you can find in any of these you know off the shelf type of materials or ashes diagrams so to find it meaning that I'm going to go from the mechanical design back to microstructure and probably to properties and then once you find a property so all these are the type of properties that don't want to I want to have and then you want to find out what the but type of material systems and whatever microstructure is you want to use for those processes for those applications and then you wonder well I know these are the term makers should mature structures that they want or micro structures that they want but how do I produce it it may take millions of dollars to produce something that would match my requirements can I find better techniques of processing techniques and kind of possibly find ways so it becomes of modeling challenge. Of the musician challenge so we learned that we can use the linkages by representing microstructure in the desert as a digital representation of micro structures based on spectral techniques and correlation functions and then if you can mathematically represents the same thing for properties same thing for processing this linkage can tell this mathematical linkage can bring the properties to microstructure matter such a process and then inverse going from processing to microstructure and then properties so this can flow information back and forth this did not exist before the Such such as the framework of course right now materials informatics has become really hot topics these days of people working on large data this is along the same type of information that we had the same type of research that's going on but it's more career lies on microstructure representation how do we represent microstructure mathematically then we have a three dimensional in general what happens is you have a microstructure you use one of these techniques like five element techniques or some of these other black box by modeling efforts that would tell you what the properties are or you know and then the many mature scientists that we through that would think well it's just not possible to have any techniques that because so many complications within mathematical systems you go down to the mystic level you have all these different complexities that you cannot possibly make that linkage but be with the most in three important attributes of micro structures. For example you can look at your systems the number of faces distribution of faces you can look at the micro structures was the defect structure or the grain boundaries or grain interfaces and those become materials actually views that we can use to represent mathematically and we have been applying there so for years I've been working in this area just linking microstructure to properties until probably a few years ago I got in to solve the excess fuel cell we did a lot of work in that regard lots of papers and process materials to make this linkage possible and then later on I concentrated on microstructure processing some going to primarily talk about microstructure processing representation and modeling and. And we are going to I'm going to go over three different projects that they have presently that I'm going to go over there and show how we approach them and but what are the complications some of them we are right in the middle some of them we're further to towards the end maybe but this would be give you a glimpse of the type of info the type of effort which exists as a matter of fact there is several different types of V.A.'s by the agency announcements which have been through the White House different from Boeing and now from different manufacturers and also NASA that actually go along with many fracturing with their field forensics like Homeland Security's working really hard with your forensics these days someone to go over a few of those aspects so there are lots of applications so much. Forensics this is actually a project is funded well it was originally from the through N.S.F. National Science Foundation and now through Homeland Security and we're getting some more into this from other agencies this is primarily using this linkage if you have if you can make this linkage meaning from property to microstructure processing and processing capability meaning that you have you have this material system that you can process and based on different processing capability the microstructure is going to change the microstructure is going to look different or the statistics of Microsoft is going to change so that becomes a fingerprint for that microstructure And the question is can be linked that to the origin about if we do and we know what capabilities exist in different regions of the war then we may be able to go back to the origin so it's a total inverse methodology that we have to use possibly this part would be more on the. Other types of forensics and this part would be materials forensics so linking processing to microstructure processing capability is something that we concentrate in on the through to the if you want to get a piece of uranium or some some alloy that you want to know where the origin is who actually made it or whatever their capabilities they can make it so you you have you want to have some modeling tools to make this linkage the other is the so in that respect different types of material systems which are used in nuclear industry or other industries which is of interest for materials forensics could be addressed so we have to look at the microstructure make that linkage in the four fashion meaning that was in one project that we haven't actually I don't see a guy just in here but that who just finished her thesis isn't for example in this economy. These are actually material systems that are used in different types of applications but they are the phrase diagram. The region of the phrase there that constitutes such material systems very very closely related to the rainy and rainy imitating the renames accordion so we use that here at Georgia Tech because we can have access to you or any of itself we did and it was a disaster here but we we're relying on national labs to do that for us but here we are just concentrating on what we call a therapy and materials to make that linkage So if we can link these material systems the microstructure to processing person to reality then we can apply the same thing to uranium the brain making the of humans and other types of alleys of your rhenium for there which was actually the initial reason for the funding of this research so we can use this and we concentrate on act in a material section of alloy spore duction and how we can get a microstructure and then go back to the origin how we can actually find out where they came from the by looking the processing so they go through this cycle of looking at the microstructure looks really tiny so it's even from here I can see where they were so here we are looking at the microstructure using different techniques that are all in this building so downstairs for. Skeletal microscopes actually diffraction rely primarily on diffraction and scattering techniques but we have either been using it. The election back you can see the fact on the tree that they just found out that there's actually a second one in this building now with just pressure we have two of them at Georgia Tech now so we look at the micro structures within the phase diagram a different levels but different phases that we can stabilize if you know phase diagrams that we can actually get it to a temperature that we want some alloyed this is actually eighteen percent. We drop it down temperature at different temperatures and we can stabilize different phases and based on that then we can do processing we can roll it because he treated and get different types of micro structures different grains structures and they give us different properties and for those we can link and produce their modeling path that we are interested so this is a D.. So that at the core of this whole thing is what we have that material system then we use the beauty of a front of you so we use different these different techniques that I just mentioned electron microscopy techniques optical microscope techniques X. ray and we can generate microstructure So I do it in three day or two D. E.V.A.'s these one technique that you can actually get an image but the image has got a huge amount of information as well as the type of phases that we have including the crystal structure and orientation of the crystal lights point and you can actually do these in three D. If you want to and that would give you a lot of information we can get what we call as orientation distribution functions the one point statistical function tells you the way to distribution of the current Crystal lights within the material and as you deform or change the microstructure that becomes one signature for that material system we know that well if I present as a function as a uniform of abstract projection which is every official distribution function. Projected over to the east space this becomes a signature for this material system for example based on knowing the orientation distribution between across grains and even grain boundaries becomes another type of distribution of grain boundaries that we can we can relate using it to for correlation Fortune's So there are microstructure attributes that depend on point to point interactions the cross-grained boundaries or point to point phrases or features and there are other type of statistical functions that we can represent based on the one point functions which is just volume averages number average is. So the idea behind two hundred functions three point function statistically is that we know based on if we throw you can think of throwing a vector inside the microstructure and then asking yourself what's happening at the beginning of that vector and at the end of that vector there will be a grain at the beginning or maybe another phase of the beginning of that vector and the end would be something else I thought once we have that knowledge and that's only for one worker once we throw millions of birth vectors inside microstructure we're going to get a distribution function which is a because as a two point distribution function which would tell us what happens inside microstructure across every two points by the way that's exactly what scattering does X. ray scattering does exactly the same thing you eradicate you are getting these percolation functions that tells you of course depending on the contrast in some cases the contrast is low here using use other techniques but that's exactly the kind of information that you would get that started the structure factor analysis and all the rest since the beginning of last century so we do the same thing you know we can do it with thermography techniques we can do it using microscopy thickness three D. scan sometimes we don't need to go to that sophistication level of sophistication but some things you have to depending on the type of properties that we need they teach the effect properties like this and how far in the micro structures are the fixed mechanical properties and. Based on the the type of processing techniques that are used to get the values of the from Michael structures that would be after a different temperatures different mechanical the formation possibly And you've got this myriad of different types of micro structures that you want to represent mathematically Of course there's a method called Fire the element I thought you can best tessellated microstructure and put every every point or feature of microseconds at a computer but how fine can you go. When you go to one micron one all the way down to one actually distances besets historically if you can use the properties of statistical functions because there's a thing called convergence so you can actually determine how far can you go using these mathematical functions so without showing his math of functions you use a lot of things that he can do with this with radical functions either just looking at the micro structures and get those signatures of one bun bun Parmenter that of Usually people uses maybe size distribution because of grain size or or volume for a fraction this of one point functions that in use but there are high order functions you can you have through three points within a micro structure and you have a three point four actions through that gives you a high order mathematical function that you have to fit within the framework of your spectral techniques wavelets spline techniques and you know when the principal component analysis that you're working with. The people in math to reduce the number of complexity so you can get a microstructure which is highly which is extremely complicated fitted to these functions I wrote have billions of data points that you don't know that becomes a black box with millions of data up through trillions of data points you can get maybe one hundred questions for this for you sees expansion maybe two hundred coefficients but it's not millions and billions so using those core features they become fingerprints representing almost the marker structures then we can use organization techniques that. That can link these micro structures that we've got mathematically and link it with this statistical much as a Technics two properties and same thing with processing so we can use the same thing exactly the same thing for processing and then we can go back in an inverse methodology to know what the microstructure is for a certain number of properties so this is one one aspect of a two point Coalition for this was done. This was done. Actually receive forgot to mention or this was done I was showing just another cover the Forgot to take this out because my studio was presenting are the sessions of the carriage everything goes so that's Ishan to listen to his talk so this was. A projection of this high dimensional representation of this correlation functions because this correlation functions our end they mention all maybe one hundred maybe two hundred they mentions and then them projected into a three dimensional space then we get something like this would be called the microstructure whole you can project it over two dimensional space that would be another microstructure whole which is represented based on the to point B. based on the two or function in it but two dimensional space so what it means is that every point is one microstructure That's the beauty of it so rather than having this huge but she'll system with all complexities No I have to deal all I have to do is meet deal with one point in the end a mental space and then if when I process it he treated. Except chemical reaction because then you're going to get a different type of a composition even that is possible but we are moving towards that goal then you get another microstructure be so the question is how do you get from A to B. may be passes and then the question is if you have a machine microswitches be can you find out what is a where that region was or tell predict how it was made but the path that it to begin to reduce power processing would be it was treated as if you believe manufacture what is it that made that microstructure and we use such these types of functions just to represent them and then we use this evolution functions of microstructure based on conservation principles to find high order functions does asr for example is an eight rank tensor the views that represents the microstructure as a study the process the process itself with an eighth rank That's a huge matrix of numbers but we if we have the correct set of data become predicted and that would tell us how we got from one point of in the nice thing about such functions is that it's completely invertible you if this is the initial microstructure you're the final microstructure you can go back if you know eight easily invertible So there's a lot of capabilities within these functions that can be used and that would give us not only the process parameter but to get it to one point two or get the fire from fine microstructure to initial microstructure So there are several different types of inverse methodology that we're talking about and they're all based on the representation correct representation so we need really good data from X. ray really good data from microscopy techniques three D. data to do this and once we have it that's it we don't need to repeat it just you do it once you find those process parameters you throw them away from north that's all you use so that represents that process and you get the final property and these are the type of. Microstructure is that you would get Actually this was B. got it from titanium this is actually a. Fuel cell that we had that got three D. image using tomography thinkings reconstructed in the computer once we have it for example if you give me three D. image I don't have to do serial section as my if I would develop techniques that once I have the three the match I can tell you what the three D. microstructure is I can still go back because I know the statistics behind how that microstructure was developed but knowing that you can go back to three D. microstructure but we have to make this linkage once we have to create it only once maybe twice just just to make sure to find those partnerships and then we can do the research the the reconstruction methodology is that we have I worked there we worked on the sidewalks of fuel so for years and years and they had all success in this through that was sort of the fuel cell by the way and. And so in the case of zirconium which was the surrogate that we are different types of materials that we have the. Idea that well if you concentrate on the composition or composition here based on this phase diagram then we want to know the different types of faces and depending on this region of those faces how does that affect the processing path because you know you may find out that you're going to marry him based on the record of his. B.C. and then the combination we can actually get different phases based on the treatments and quenching results into other types of faces so that becomes a complication so we need to know how they affect the process so we had to do this here ourselves we actually made the samples in the lab together with Dr due. To cringe nearing we have a casting facility that we can make these materials he tweet them with roll them forty of them get all kinds of microstructure we come back to David to do X. ray diffraction for us and then we get the data and try to manipulate the data and find our process in Path functions and once we know that then we know that if something is similarly to. Maybe uranium Lavie I was really as you can you then we can tell them based on the information that we got and once we found and discovered that process parameter which is a huge matrix but once we have it we can tell them what the regional microstructure is or how the Microsoft is having a look like based on the capabilities so if you have the fine microstructure we can point it towards the initial where it came from or how it was made so that was the primary purpose so we get different. As we as he treated the Rowlett we get all these different microswitch they look the same once you look at them. Recently to the image but they're completely different as far as the statistics of microstructure. It's because by visible I saw you know they don't didn't look at different you know but they are very different and we get that statistics only by doing this is your position that we talked about so the digitization gives you what we call as coalition functions which represents each microstructure as they evolve and as we volved of course we have all these other types of different structures we have a secondary purpose if it's growing they give you secondary information that we can also use for the for the purpose of forensics. And then we get what we call as orientation distribution functions these are O.D.'s based on the efficiency of grains that are represented based on the three Euler angles you know much much earlier about maybe hundred fifty years ago or when you know astronomy or physics and physics we wanted to represent the relationship between two coordinate axes they found out about because we only need three angles three rotations so if you do that if we consider that those three rotations and plot those against the different micro structures these are the plus of yet with different sections so we can have like only zero person zero and forty five degrees and and roll them to treat them and they give you different types of microstructure statistically to give you the statistical distribution of orientation distributions they also become different they're going to become a signature that we can add so the question is can we come up with a global representation materials representation for this microstructure So yes my students that here so I can say whatever I want to say because he knows a little more about this so we have become do's electron microscopy getting the same information that we can get from X. ray microscopy X. ray techniques or diffraction and compare those two and then enrich the database that we have to come up with that global microstructure representation and that global representation. Can be applied to different techniques Well this is another take another project that we're working on this is actually funded through Boeing who originally started bout a few years ago on machining. But there are different types of machining blanking turning you name it there's right of different types of machine and the idea was bicycling to Boeing and if a company is once we machine something of what's worth my time frame forty five minutes right. For that's what I have forty five minutes so once we have this work when the machine something when the machine apart through the final shape first of all of course you lose a lot of materials of the materials but then you lose more because after machining the surface is not what you want so you have to remove the circus you have to polish it or you just have to. Get a lot of times that's a lot of expense the machining additional work that you do to improve the surface and sometimes the surface for those of you in mechanics the stresses are tense island that's becomes the source for fatigue initiation so you won't have compressive stresses and surface when you machine surface sometimes you get tense stresses sometimes you get compressive stresses and the question from them was what determines that you know because there are three machine parameters there's a depth of car there's a speed there is angle of attack so what really what is the combination of different parameters that mathematically can tell us OK for increase this I'm going to get this to compressive more compressive or less pencil is there any way that we can link it so that started the project for us that we looked at the micro structure after machining under this layer So here's the problem is that after you machine it's a highly gradient structure what I'm talking about. Gradient meaning from ten nanometers or five nanometers all the way down to a few microns meaning that you get with certain microstructure within five nanometers below the surface the only hand use is he to analyze and then be taught maybe a few microns that he can use X. ray or the techniques or even the B.S. the microscopy to know so it's a highly gradient structure and how to link it to process part is a huge it's quite a challenge and then you're using the same type of methodology but this methodology works on different depths and we're trying to find a global function that would represent this gradient so that's another challenge for us the of the ways issues are as a challenge really that we have this turning Pommy Ters that we have to apply so we get one microstructure I guess another microstructure or group believe we get the range of gradient through microstructure for distribution and if the effects structure of phase interactions the machining is a high temperature process most people do not realize when you machine the piece you are taking it to a very high temperature sometimes even close to melting temperature so for example your material is just high six for your changing the phases distribution from room temp just five percent beta to fifty percent greater than one hundred twenty five degrees and machining temperatures goes all the way up there so we have to consider in the modeling therefore we have to consider this phase into a face transformations Not only that then we have grain growth we have a crystallization we have defects structure the sufficient density increases this is the high shooting process to your your you are introducing large amount of plastic deformation with the material that you have to be you have to consider and incorporate So this brings us to cycle that I'm not going to go through this cycle of manufacturing process mechanics that we apply the big machine parameters machine parameters as well as the boundary conditions then the modeling. This is actually together with Dr Steven Liang. This is a joint project of mechanical engineering together in a field science we concentrate on materials aspect and he and his group they consider machining Parmenter is and then from that we get problem properties like hardness module is a function of that and from that we go back to what are we do as material sciences grain boundaries microstructure phase distribution crystallography variant ations the few different structures these dislocations defect structure and then we quit the question is how does that affect how do we manipulate the process parameters to get a better property to find property residual stress as maybe hardness So this brings us to huge cycle that we have to achieve by actually getting the data in a forward question and then go back in reverse so the this becomes starting from the inputs which is process parameters difficult cutting flies the feeding rate then be applied this process promises gives us macroscopically what's happening to every wall you Melhem and within the material there would be a strain loss of the gradients temperature gradients and so on and then be put in the what we call as a. Base for classical self-consistent modeling or for that we can get by the evolution of micro structures and properties at hand and that gives us the sum of the properties which is of interest and from that keeps from that that would be one forward model the question is can we go backwards now because this is a process from is all the way up to properties and microstructure kind of go back why is it important go back because what I want is I know for one process promises these are the type of micro structures of the good and the properties but I don't want that I want to find out what is the what but before a certain microstructure is that they want what should the process parameters be but we can do this for once of the material systems find that a parameter was talking about and then you're set to go to that that's occurred brings us to this will stressed measure the measurement because very important so much measured measurement of residual stresses how do we measure them using actually fraction laser techniques or other things that we use with extra diffraction seems to be the best that we can get a deaf profile of to a few microns and then by remove all we can get a lot more so we know the distribution of residual stress is a function of depth. If as we sample size we change the process parameters and that becomes an input and then we look at the micro structures the ones that the the the images that we get from either E.B.'s the rock or microscopy an extra diffraction orientation distribution functions all the way up to final Microcell machine parts and then we get these properties so we fit this to the models that we generate and avoiding any equations here and that becomes For example there's a functional process we get the different structures as we turn to get the from microstructure the different effects structures and once we have this information fit then we should be able to go back right now we're working on prices for we finished our work on aluminum so we got those process promises one looming on the finales of aluminum and now we're working on Tyson switches to a structure so we are applying those and we applied this to it as an inverse model and we actually were able to identify some process parameters that could give them the best ideal. I guess micro structures that they would use and we are testing it for aluminum and also we're going to be moving to our states India titanium so this was this is exactly the same wonder they gave you showed you before now it's in the inverse passion because now we start from desire properties and then we're going to get these are micro structures and go back to see what the process promises are so the same slide but in the reverse that's got inverse methodology or forensics in a different way so that would be the author of the interesting part is that what we developed for machining can be used exactly the same modeling therefore to be used for anything many factory What's the difference between I think the manufacturing and much machining in one case you're removing material a very high temperature in the other case you actually adding layers. But same same process right I mean you're adding or removing there's some subtle differences maybe major Maybe not but same type or representation same type of. Process of the McCain mechanisms those involve you're dealing with face transformations we're dealing with huge gradients and temperature layer by layer so here is for example a power feed process is actually part of bed process so we're working on a power feeding process that you feed in power and you melted by laser or electron beam or other techniques at the tip and then you add layer by layer of materials and the question is in his apology is much much easier because just one I mean I'm not of the polymer systems very computer once you figure it out that's OK but in metals milling with a lot of other issues these huge gradient temperature and residual stresses which is created the materialist's not as fluid as polymers becomes very viscous so that generates problems and be working with creature hooking with booing you want to imagine this we want to make a column using these techniques and they use all the techniques all the questions that they have and they say they're getting the vertical column it always goes one way or the other and what really is missing is that they're not incorporating microstructure in it or what comes out of it which is stresses as a result of the microstructure and that's what we're trying to do we're using. Trying to develop a player models that can be presented that Mr plastic from and on that as a functional microstructure gradient and we are after is in different modeling techniques that we have modeling models that we have developed before and still plasticity we are playing to two different types of systems one is twice explore which is of interest to Boeing steel which is of interest to other industries the both actually six was a two for structure Steve can be to face to face will freeze be got Martin sized ferrites we've got ostomates we've got I can add of this as we are going element changes so we're developing models for those because as the function as a function of temperature there's an evolution of microstructure based on face to face fractions that occurs that makes things a lot more complicated than we had before but very similar to machine so we're doing basically the same thing so we're going from. There are limited databases that we have we're using different optimization techniques anywhere from artificial networks that neural networks or fuzzy logic to train are our systems to get the data to fit the data that we have and then once we do this we are using different types of modeling efforts that we already have at hand to be able to predict like a structure the microstructure is in terms of the statistics that we get right it's not direct microstructure but having the statistics we have this timid methodology that we can create three D. micro structures that's exactly same thing which is done in the case of scattering or sacks or wrangle small angle scattering techniques for polymers that you can actually draw through the structures based on these two point correlations we do exactly the same thing here except that here we are getting the data for two point correlation functions differently and we can also calculated and then called the three D. microstructure OK I'm going to stop right here and exactly forty five minutes so some of the students who are working in this regard I have to thank David who's here has helped us a lot in last few years on the getting the X. ray data so hopefully will continue doing that. And as everybody and everybody else so the funding for my projects right now is coming from on this and homeland security and boring aircraft and partially from I forgot to mention their name is the. Space Agency and Ga Ga space agency was more of you working for them that they do the mission for the solar cells and else thanks. Yes. That's. The nice things to. See. In your life you're stuck. In the same way your life. Microsoft is a micro structure so we can deal with them as long as we're trying to write students and funding and so on I think I would be perfectly something that we could work on I think where we did work on Born structures before the really interesting structures might my past life. And then I'd also because it was a micro structures. I said OK yeah that's what that's what I'm talking about this. So we could be could apply what we have to do is to do that those applications are just a matter of the hierarchy right scales so we have to figure out what the scale of microstructure are important as far as the type of properties that you are interested in composites actually a work in composite twenty five years ago twenty some years ago so with for light structural materials there was my previous life so that's probably the kind of. Maybe we can apply those techniques to the micro structures that you have in you know really much more interesting bits I would call. The. There are absolutely absolutely. Yes. And we can speak should we see do not know a lot of those properties where they come from the interaction of interfaces and the that we're still striving to investigate the type of. The interface problems either in this is materials have been. Extremely hot topics for research like twenty years ago or somehow we've got a financial structures and we sort of are not spending enough time on interfaces but yeah that absolutely. Yes thanks. Last night. Yes. So what stood out just this is. Where we are using that for a number of different cases this is one example that we have the we have these models that we want to figure out how to fit those curves right you have so they're very experimental data your experience later for the properties the different temperatures and we have this data there's got like eleven different palm eaters to find as part meters we use neural networks to figure out as an optimization technique to find out what those parameters are. But the BE also using that for. Four or usually for some of the cases that we don't have a model we just use the networks as a black box as an input output but we're gradually replacing them with a mathematical model that we have full control over but that's another. We also using that for reconstruction mythologies So we're using these for a number of different applications and the primary using Matlab or Python so abilities to do those so we're not writing those calls just using them. Exactly in this case is just finding those questions so we have a database and then you want to get the questions for the models that represent those curves that you see or those are structuring curves or straight test tests and if you want to fit into a model that we have it's going to be a major challenge. Because you know there are lots of lots of this is actually a small segment of the model that we have but so we have lots of questions and find out what those questions are is going to be a major challenge. You know you can use to bring statistics and points that is to represent a different structure green boundaries grain size so it depends on how. It doesn't replace the defense structure is actually a way to statistically represent mathematically the distribution of those defects so the question is you have a defacto evergreen boundary you want to know where it is and how it impacts your properties so one think Nick is using the statistical formulation which for me from microstructure is the best because you could probably use other things there's only other solution would be using a fight element or find a difference approaches for that the number of I mean the of course you can use this thousands of thousands of processors to do this to get finer and finer but this one is a statistical methods takes into account all the complexities whether that's enough it should be enough unless the material is not homogeneous. If the machine is highly history genius then then we're in trouble so we have to use it we may have to rely on fire the woman at that point yes. It's very low compared to fire the liver right now my student runs everything in his laptop. Mac.. You may take a couple of hours but if you want to do the same thing with a file and you have to go to a large process the power processor may be loaded or they would run for weeks so that's one but I vantage of these types of competition techniques I mean the results are approximate of course was statistically approximate right I mean if you look at the features within this war you know you look at one corner computer or call it people see different sets of Stickley there may not be any difference but you could you could possibly tesselated them put billions and billions of Brits and get a very very nice result but the same thing is going to be done using the statistical techniques with a variance with some error but the question is what there are but what is there so you have to do some analysis of the inner analysis to be able to see if you could use such as to call things right so I'm not saying they watch for everything so but the kind of water they do it doesn't play. Like. I'm sorry yes. Absolutely yes. Yes yes. So. That's the only test that we have so as we increase the size of the volume element because this representative volume element ulti so that our view as it increases if the statistics does that change we know that we reached that total of the that the limits and the problem is that this is unfortunately sometimes we don't have a large segment of the microstructure to test that that's a problem so there are some experimental problems to do so but in many cases for the microstructure that they deal with because in one millimeter up got billions of grains so I don't have any issues with that you know because usually you can achieve dead within like ten grains or maybe twenty grains but in other cases there are cases that yes you actually limited and as I told him then maybe these techniques would not work so I'm not saying that the sickness works for every case but it works for cases that you haven't got a C.T. satisfied place yes yes. You see that OK one thing I do is just one which in isolation and representation microstructure business so idea if I rely on physics this doesn't create physics so I'm not claiming that you know I'm relying on I do a live the physic but that's separate from this right so the physics has to be there for this to work your physics is not there so we do a lot of D.F.T. analysis the BE do and molecular dynamics so my students are working on that so that's separate from this once that's established then these techniques works so I'm not claiming that this can replace physics definitely not this is just. A reference microstructure representation statistics that you can use to use as signatures for microstructure or link to properties a process I don't know if I answered your question but yes yes. Absolutely we have a problem right now with these systems that we have the procedures really fine so we have to use. X. rated is just to see the distribution we don't know if we are not going to be able to get an image but we have to use T.M. to get those images but depends on what the really effects the what what what the but it depends on the scales of the problem if you're only interested about finding a signature from a fuel system sometimes those are not important the only affect physics of the problem so we already know the physics of the problem for this person or that the people of you working on it I myself am working on it for years so we know the physics as long as we have some indication of how the how large they are because there's an optimal size for them to affect properties so hard that the effect is considered relations we're fine but beyond that we be able you're right it's going to be a huge experimental challenge and actually that's what we are joined to deal with to find out there because on the global scale we can because we know the Ground Zero structure we go in a final scale the defect structured the question then city precipitates then we have to do more sophisticated techniques to get them extra you can do some and then we have to use rely on something to use if empathetic for those so once we have that information the good thing about this type of model year for it is you just need once again but you have to do it correctly and perfectly for your model to work in reverse so once you do it once then you're done maybe twice just to verify. So I'm not saying that they're not going to have an effect they do but sometimes some properties do not get affected for those of you interest about elastic properties you know. Those those small personal mean other plasticity Yes hardness Yes there are some other so the present what you're looking for you're looking for magnetic properties maybe not you know the plans on the type of so you have to approach each problem separately and find out what are the most important microstructure actually buttes that you have to consider and then incorporate that in your model I mean your model can have billions of parameters they're useless and maybe only three of them does the job for you you know so it's a matter of optimization or finding out what the. BILL OF DIFFERENT most mature scientists they don't see that MOST important that actually do this of they see this material system they see all these complexities defects point defects this will patients they can't see how any of these techniques can work. So we're constantly trying to prove to them that this does work so. That this. So. You know the problem a neural network is that you have to have a lot of data because you don't see any trend there's no beer so I mean another relying on regionally of course in some cases to find for optimization and we're using different but in general we're trying to find these clothes from Solutions evolution of microstructure just move functions for some cases the functions may not be smooth may be singular so we're trying to discover those types of function based on the physics of the problem otherwise you know you're right be have to have a huge amount of data points but if you have for example machining be yet maybe three or four in each and then we have only maybe twelve micro structures that we have to be the couple of times that might self takes a couple of years to analyze and get all the data so it's not then it's not really a small amount of work it's a lot of work but at least it's not like thousands of parameters that you need to do for neural networks so once we have that the good thing about it is that once we have that we don't have to repeat what every microstructure if you do far more liberal you may have to repeat for every microstructure because for when you're a little Everyone has such as different for this techniques every microstructure every process has got a smooth function buried inside that you have to discover and find that linkage that statistical linkage you get. They make you.