[00:00:04]
>> Very very great pleasure to introduce. Dr Evans about the dairy. Aisle. Very has the Villanova University but here. At George Washington University. University and I've never thought that. This is the article but everywhere from gender and history to know there are. Women in the culture of the world her research into her focus.

[00:00:39]
Clearly on that and then it is the pro quo. And particularly the history of the development of. The medical profession and what about today. Five midwives national or even the big. I mean. Your. Argument. That Friday afternoon. And I didn't have much like an easy to rescind. And that is you know I can just read that but you know I think in order to be clear about the argument I'm going to give that crime and then what I want to do in the next half hour is that.

[00:01:39]
How it put together that argument and this is really kind of a deep interaction of my argument. Really Norton has three parts. Certain British form when you know it's very ironic way and then what I'm calling the modern generation Dr doctor and the template of the modern doctor and this in turn I'm arguing.

[00:02:03]
This point is going to begin to. That's Midway which seems like a very. Clear history in that that the attacks don't really. My argument here that this is not an exceptional kind of history because in the Middle East the better part of the argument in. The ready as the doctor visit GIBSON And what of the modern in the articulated discourse the Republican mother.

[00:02:34]
I'm arguing that there are three interdependent historical process now play national or the right of the national medical professional invasion of war and medical modernization and how bad it was and then interdependent impact gender and greed I talked about gender and manuscript but I'll talk to more. About the impact that I'm Dr than man but really obviously the focus is on the why and how.

[00:03:04]
And to really do you know I want to bring it in a really easy sort of way by some theory that's not so easy because colonial era art then shattered in a very problematic way I'm using that he'd be out in the interim domain and that really in the ballad he would put in that anti-colonial national and.

[00:03:28]
R. and Colonial space by creating to bring. The outer domain and the inner domain and the outer domain where the material world occurs where. The material already in terms of state craft and science and technology and then the Internet I mean we just heard that interest they could think I'm not sure and this would be where I could go identity is for the interaction Department tattered theory that there's an outer and inner journey that are very much now but in terms of what could be a part of the entire.

[00:04:03]
National. And in the demand I forgot to mention where both. National and the launch of the powerful and historically significant project mainly to fashion a modern national culture that is nevertheless well. What I want to do is spend a little bit of time talking about the author to me where I argue this new template of the modern Egypt and doctor is board but until that then allow me to talk about how the midwife does play then I'll turn very quickly to be entered I mean in talk about the way it went to the doctor isn't going to talk in terms of her mother in order to forge the national anthem but the irony here is that despite knowing that we're going to end colonizing the medal that there will not last be a murder in a modern Egyptian doctor with a kind of a word that he draws from a common right.

[00:04:58]
Which is the medical school that is trained that in order to or to vary quite a bit. Identity the division that. OK. Let's put it the other day I mean. The British think of it the that is banned in joining the Navy in between ninety three and then.

[00:05:20]
After. Over a decade and they don't demean you that they don't get to be a medical professional they shouldn't tell decade after. And this is probably different now but they returned to him and told you so the need to maintain twenty nine just seven years after not more independence that was the law but they don't necessarily line up unless you're looking.

[00:05:45]
At it then and then when the winter understanding social and historical change. During a period of arguing it's short but it's incredibly tense in terms of the can you know what it is that we've been your method. And the reason figures to bounce back to become the doctor and what kind of medicine.

[00:06:04]
This practice. Because of the doctor and the guided by certain colonial reforms that is potentially are in the way. The height of colonial. Vision. Personally more Kraemer eventually commissioner and it was Dr to come one day until we were all so many and we model it according to a British.

[00:06:33]
According to a British model. And. That because of. The report that prepare your demand and then over come that would then become the Constitution of the name has reported in terms of when yet what I'm calling a web page and so with Beijing I'm really a professional medical professional nation.

[00:06:55]
So it's not about turning the Egyptians been telling them it is about turning their institution into the western Institute there's a distinction between Coulter and here and to do. So we need to talk to you about them in the report is an argument to make you know on the medicine and this is there were changes in practice and what is.

[00:07:19]
So we're going to do with India come to the region Egypt and it's been fairly clear in what he called me a battering demagogue because of what happened and it allows for education the British are finding a thing that they're digging order to finance the very people who turn and when nationals revolt against them into what we call me in that I want to give them the same repeat performance and so the company comes with a particular I would be pretty odd that you had you know it in fingers be but the British policy in general.

[00:07:53]
In the direct order on information which is really just trying to render institutions that be interested in what you want to buy into it in the. Present we do it very differently. Because babe and we will all be in higher and. Entirely new institutions when the British tried to resurrect.

[00:08:14]
Them with New England. So what they did. They went through the educational system one generally very restrictive and they did this by imposing too which shows which is unprecedented. And procedures that are much more rigorous and stringent in order to win strict because they get more correct not about populating you with educated Gyptian it's about restricting how one enters and graduate from school and what would be he would create works in the well.

[00:08:50]
And I only mention that these are hours so apparently what that means in less interruption is going to school and those who don't come from the. So this is the beginning of working with me to tell whether becoming a doctor a doctor. In addition to that is secondary all the professional schools are based in Cairo so if you're thinking higher education in Egypt it becomes an urban phenomenon and what I read there arguing that you therefore adopt an urban out to the profession and then you don't adopt.

[00:09:24]
People in this regard and exclusively in the number of doctors will be able to get medical instruction the number of medical graduates never fifty in any given year and the average number is twenty per year and then that in time and the age of population is nine million nine million by one thousand or two we're talking about a period with the group.

[00:09:47]
OK that's right why did they act. In addition to the. Big new template of the modern Big Pimpin Dr. They were going to form that until they were based. A new curriculum. And this is true. Especially after one thousand nine hundred three when the question of British withdraw from Egypt was resolved and it was decided by the British that they wanted to entrenched themselves in Egypt and they did this indication the educational system so we begin to feel eighty ninety three a cleared trencherman in which people starting to take over the vision that only then Egypt.

[00:10:31]
But empowered by Gyptian the director of concern to me because I think any becomes and an Englishman and he then. A rarity in new. English doctors are spread out of London to take over the highest ranking positions of the medical or and the board well. And now we can speak for eight hundred ninety three in Europe you know being part of company but never before and they've been the majority and certainly not of one particular is that he would have been French and writing to your.

[00:11:05]
Members but now it was one exclusively by by begin with. Now what is the bar and while I'm at a. New salary. All that sort of being in a new medical intervention would be the way in which part of the irony of my argument has to do with well they are the worst in terms of the quality of medical modernization on the other hand a good one will be in well then surely when you.

[00:11:36]
Serve in the Army. What happened in that the the depression during the ninety's this is about obviously what in the early twentieth century we're talking about at a time when you dipshit nationalism is taking a good chance beginning to be there with the different ways the Avonlea Gyptian mission during this particular time is precisely the time when he Gyptian doctors are beginning to weaken and.

[00:12:03]
Interlocutors. When they're British coloniser men why is it that they're the only position in the medical. That that necessarily impact then in the way that we think they just see that as an opportunity when the British leave their shoes because they're competent enough to do that and so they write in the ranks and.

[00:12:25]
Create the. Medical of the nation in the one nine hundred twenty eight during an international conference where forty four countries talk about tropical disease the Europeans are speaking and they are equal interlocutor to the British British British coloniser mentors think you don't need sort of colonial complex and in terms of a kind of in theory already that it could be game when it comes to there are already.

[00:12:51]
By many in terms of curriculum changes that were clinical medicine wasn't going to inject the kind of clinical medicine that are imported from Britain during that period and then when we. Come in kind of think aspect of the medical program and part of that is that doctors are going to learn gynecology and this is going to sort of lead me into my second argument about the disappointment of the midwife because doctors are now trained to be a gynecologist.

[00:13:21]
And mentally they're going to play the woman who was considered a doctor asked or even before the period they're going to do what is certain that she would come and we might and so the curriculum came to them that are very much. Part of course all how we can talk about this when what they're really talking about is to know why.

[00:13:44]
Our men and their empowerment at one in the meantime. Let me turn that into that about this well just and then talk about how institutional A. Company called and I think institutions related be a doctor when they're empowered. Modern Egypt and Dr that. The discipline you mean by I want to talk a little bit about some of the reporting that allowed for but institutional reform that I'm not one of the.

[00:14:23]
One hundred twenty if I didn't hear in the report we carry also because we're very Which by the way me with a balanced really in the nineteenth century to appreciate it is colonialism. But it is even more impacted by Kerry. And we see that interview in two or three different ways number one is with me.

[00:14:47]
And in the end it was Jewish and which produced what we call. Human. Want to be pioneering work and involvement helping an Egypt is written by a. Train but if this were not a doctor because she's trying to find the people in other. Terms what they did and what their primary function went to her baby midwives they get extra when we read medical missions as well whether it might or thirty years back I mean.

[00:15:20]
What I what else did they do you. Do during the. Whole You could call it. That the only. Midwife In other words. The institution of the women we're great. To be. Had we don't financially administratively and in terms of the faculty body on the school of. Medicine already.

[00:15:48]
And in addition to that as we've already that gynaecology becomes part of the curriculum so not only is it an institutional displacement turned out to be as midwives it would be as nurse midwives are disappearing they're no longer called and he went back on what he does which are the.

[00:16:04]
It would be quibbling of what we would call that a nurse midwife to the curriculum displace the analogies so that they're no longer in condition and be independent got pregnant so there's the notion of and then the arguing emerges out of the institutional over. And we can be the board nation and that in turn.

[00:16:30]
And I should also mention very quickly what I'm partly arguing is that the reason why when the. Women are there conditions are reconstituted it's not and will be Has there been in the usual change but also the very ontology of women in one thousand and three European if we can figure that one there and then she'll be rationalized in medical terms to be maternal and nurturing.

[00:16:56]
And. A caretaker and wait a minute there's an ontological as well as an institution where we can begin ration what women and their. That women can do and that. Is in what they call a nation that but I also want to argue momentarily in the direction of internal mind that I want to be a bit nationalist so that it not kind of the imposition of Western culture and institutional way of being that it has been very good impact what I'm arguing that it gets absorbed in the bigger but then to a third Should National was.

[00:17:36]
But we think it's important Asia nonetheless. I think quite. Clearly in the medical and legal implications. That you would be worth that midwives were not allowed to work that medically or legally and in fact they're not even trained at the school with really any more important. It is only doctors were not to do that and of course this is premised on the idea that kind of quality in this is going to.

[00:18:04]
Made by more than one is she and her are in her autograph on the side of the rider gynecology a huge part of the pendulum gynecology in granite and the modern spine and on the problematic nobody in other words woman body becomes problematic in the one and three in a way that it just abides medical intervention as a way to sort of rationalize what's wrong with her and therefore how can be medically resolved and it's not the idea accidental that it is men who are doing it with bobbing and women who are sort of being the problem.

[00:18:39]
That rationale is important as well here when we've been bringing forth that women do not you know and then why do there and then I wonder why you know I'm not a medical doctor because they're not trained to medically resolve other women's bodies and again that's really been sort of the burning that Holland thinking here and turned about empowering the interest in me and empowering Egypt and women as part of medical practice.

[00:19:08]
The irony of all of that despite her demoted or subordinate in private in those midwives went back to being a really significant contributor to Slate sponsored that at the very institution that is subordinating her she did then that one of its most staunch in terms of nurse midwives.

[00:19:27]
Sponsors So you know they're our number they're out there and thank Dr Perry they're bringing plates on her better than to the war on these women and they're telling them what to do in terms of how you might keep yourself in the way which. So part and parcel of the argument is the way that it is regulating both men and women and it's been gender ratio and not simply men in this sort of area equal you know thirty per cent women but that didn't really have a real bit in it but here you have all of.

[00:20:02]
These new gender dynamics. I. Mean we are. Returned to the Internet may want to talk a little bit about some of the Republican motherhood disquiets that these. Men are. A good thing in a very organic way that it's being brought but it being internalized very nationalist. And there are about to turn to the housewife that will midwife with me want me to this medical authority is going to get the housewife and she's being advanced in the very vibrant medical that is lost I mean at the turn of the Internet medical copy of popular medical journal but you also have women paying to dedicate it to you in the street newspapers that are dedicated to domestic discord.

[00:20:55]
And I'm tired of medical discourse and demand. And so you know it's just a huge number of articles that talk about women in. Three particular ways a mother. And they don't think women and then also in terms of her you know grooming and manners but the interesting when you look at these three categories in which doctors are speaking out and the argument I'm trying to develop here is that doctors can have weird the investigation in their meaning of motherhood in the name of science why would you be talking about a woman making beds for children and that they're the very thing that which you know and I mean these are fashioned from the doctor you know why they're.

[00:21:43]
There all the doctors are talking about everything done that day. That he really he was completely unrelated but everything seems to the way you you know arrange your furniture is all a matter of ventilation and fresh air there seems to be I would be assigned to find the patient here where everything is rationalized in terms of.

[00:22:04]
In the water. The way they couldn't help your home but in the open ended what it's really doing in the green men and we're not sure. You know reconfiguring the domestic in terms of a national major. OK. I wanted to share one they'd be in by think this will illustrate a little bit in terms of the domestic discourse medical discourse.

[00:22:36]
What I'm talking about but there is. A lot of British art of articles that are taken out of British. People in the paper even that are translated and put into the medical journals and this could be the word that idea that housewives were going to read and so what we're really talking about here and different kind of intervention where mother you know the best.

[00:23:04]
Creature is supposed to be trained by the doctor but it's kind of at the democratization of medicine where it's not what I have to train you to be eventually. A caretaker but in many ways that America is the housewife in the nearby because of the very. Good you're reasonable in bond with the premised on the idea that they have to be obedient to this person and now.

[00:23:32]
Well I did in fact I did medical intervene even when just to keep her. Her children they were the midwife she and the person in that initial response and then when you like the mother have to give these children birthing. One particular article taken straight out of them.

[00:23:53]
And. Literally just wait and there's no real. You know. This is what we have to do with this is what the British are doing anything. Fact here is that in order to be moderately Gyptian to emulate the technique and the article the pollen. Month pregnant women are barred when tired and weak and they only and day dream all day.

[00:24:20]
Create. The Dr give the pregnant woman by most of the British women follow the Egyptian are finding this out and how it introduced. The article he advised me to continue to exercise a lot of. Our story but emotionally disturbed or excite. The Greeks who by their because they surrounded their pregnant women would be the point that you make sure that the wound payments are going to explain their children beauty he could not think that this was the reason for their beauty but he did say that you know things created nicer environment or pregnant woman that's been relaxed and happy and moderate and the thing being it must help the pregnant woman.

[00:25:07]
So it turned out this woman after reading that and that's just sort of the end but really when you let it not. You know that profoundly in mining but it turns out you're right because. The pregnant Englishwoman knowledge to the by the government was correct in your diagnosis that she trained me because I'm a bit by she started to see the beauty of nature the basement she started to feel compassion and mercy when we're going to buy her she was not very happy and her thinking was not very clear.

[00:25:41]
This become. The emulated or the model to be emulated and again it's not so much about being any more there either but maybe that will allow it to be an interruption mission which is you know. Productive and have industrious get it done and that can only begin to get doctors.

[00:26:04]
The. Intermeeting and this is how they speak they've been good in terms of serving the nation and intervening for the sake of the collective body and that really means we're going to help in that national project and they are the ideological or reproduce biological reproduce or are the ones who can ideologically those away and to be what doctors and vision.

[00:26:28]
OK so what made three argument and all you know and here the person really. Sort of. In answering that question. One of the arguments I'm trying to talk about we you know we want to think that all in the answer colonized by pretty good ways that there are over here and there it you want me to put over here in a debate and I think a story that is the story of medical they should really tries to make worry about mind in some ways and to show the way Gemini that we're only and neatly between coloniser colonise but can also put between gender we are sort of the old here the English and then we get him Dr can benefit in ways at the expense of women and he went in then and then and.

[00:27:20]
Then back again and related to the first. Medical modernization really kind of demonstrate and then. How male privilege is very much inscribed in the very interworkings of education so that power is already before and even produce that is you know gradual power is already circumscribed in gender and or so to what extent does one get anywhere to not bring about the number one seed and then P.J. the benefit to women to what extent in there is that there are an underbelly to modernization in a way that needs to be expanded and particularly in those levels of the education will bring about equality for all.

[00:28:04]
I mean does that mean that when education in fact demonstrate the very opposite and then the one. You know and went back to paper the point there is that the irony of modernization and particularly modern medicine. In the many ways I mean gender role model beyond sort of traditional values of motherhood that you know the definition the real sort of the wonderful category that matters in the modern period is motherhood and so we kind of think the tradition would be any of the nice bifurcated where aggression means you move out of tradition into more than any I think it's the you like best sort of that well to what extent is modern education leading.

[00:28:48]
In progress when we are that moved beyond traditional values and gender when in fact it only great buying the biryani College in that tradition. And then finally basically I'm I'm I'm. Only feeling that argument Cameron mayor who wrote a book. That I mean I'm not. Going to run with that but as.

[00:29:15]
You know we've been talking about gender really. Whether you're talking about on the level of medical practitioners doctors and midwives or in the level of. Rejection national menu and wouldn't jump to nationals wouldn't do whatever whatever tender regime you're talking about with mentally brought by medical nation I'm going to want to eclipse gender Ironwood that it's really true modernization exclusion.

[00:29:43]
That women are sort of what are included in the enterprise I'm a guarantee that they're not about what they're going to be unless women are going to comment in these particular sort of way as mother added She is sort of. Secondary but I'm married to the project of moderen and they wouldn't men who are mentally.

[00:30:04]
OK. I was not there and would not think are you there. And I'm not very familiar with the history of women with create I think the only thing I've really read on the topic is world that are already in that one but in hearing you talk I'm intrigued by the number of parallels that I see with.

[00:30:28]
What we're just sort of saying in that book and one strikes me particular and that in her story she discusses how men would create begins to break down the eighteen in between eighteen thousand and eighteen thirty eight when the introduction professionalization in the been in medicine it's been in May and ask to use it and sort of what this sort of suggests because the whole narrative raster is about separate Spears that there is a separate women's economy separate and economy and already but you see doctors sort of displacing midwives and moving into the women's spirit but.

[00:31:06]
In the end I mean you know store in some sort of aware that really separate spheres didn't die and we think if we accept that producers just we did sort of replicated it so that there was that we can you know reconfiguration of separate spheres. So I was intrigued to see a lot of parallels that because I think that sort of the story that you are telling is that we separate serious if we accept it as real but it really died with with.

[00:31:35]
With you know with the professionalization of been into the sphere the men in the sphere that had traditionally been that of women but it sort of. Departs they report on themselves and how women can be sort of brought into the. Home tried to book because the book terms but I'm big Tory and the men are implicated and sort of bringing big you know medical ideals into the household and it's interesting sort of thing that say the same thing about how women can sort of.

[00:32:05]
In the modern of the moon bringing in the. Next may break point. One about me and then I put them in reference to you know you're speaking to that now and to what extent that you regard college ship look at the Middle East that's sort of exceptional or something that's an open door to worry about the Middle East and turns out how it may in time so it's not progressed think forward there's something that gives it stagnant and whether it's because of their culture wars or what have you there's something that from being able to sort of move in the sort of Western notions of progress and so what I'm trying to argue here is that there are very parallel nine identical parallel historical process in the balance gender regimes that are brought in by movie or in India that can be spoken about across.

[00:32:54]
And so to what extent we're the different this is where the intersection then where the did connect in that story that. Seemed to emerge in the modern period in a way that people can speak across borders similarly about what happened to them. So that's part of that is part of what I'm trying to be and definitely an agenda there and her call for comparative new gender regime and the relationship to material the other point that you're making in it that important to talk about here is one of the way in which women despite their institutional move bent toward their own demotion in the morning when what do they really doing sort of what I focused on in the institutional this is the prescriptive this is what's supposed to happen right then the School of Medicine was done in this particular what now on the ground how did midwives actually crack.

[00:33:44]
Winter counter-culture did they kind of do their own things and you know their midwives who were there called guy heads right these are the trained traditional midwives who are not trained in these modern discipline you know field of medicine and so to what extent. And especially because in their.

[00:34:04]
Activity in the rural area and there are significant here is not a good thing I mean a radical and there's this movement to use the train midwives to talk to the untrained midwives and try to bring them on board and give them crash course and even though they're a literate you know sort of basic training method we're very but interesting some of the cooperation and collaboration and competition that goes on between these trained midwives in the puppet lives so the other.

[00:34:35]
Space in the private sphere that's going on that's very counter to the state right it's counter to the pain it's for the state so the strain midwives find themselves in in the very significantly important changing I mean the power where on the one hand under the doctor there's a kind of tug of war where they know they're supportive and then they are kind of empowered every day and why.

[00:35:01]
That there are these weird times the words that go along because at the end of the day after practice in a writing that doesn't understand the power dynamic very messy I mean I think my advisor always tells me when doing women's history and look at the sister are there things that sort of go there or there are other aspects other aspects of inequality that whether or not I mean if you would get Mr ransack there is.

[00:35:26]
One who is the heart of what about. The three axes and an equality. Choice to a scar to. Race. Gender and class right class is always been one of the sort of inequalities especially in cricket a professional sense that could sort of threaten threaten sort of brings women together as a group yet still you know it's very messy Internet and all of those have been great.

[00:36:03]
But Cranston and now. Gender are very much in this weird power dynamic between very different medical practice whether the midwife. Or the intervention doctor in which the train was happen out again and here our and. You. Know when you can you distinguish that are in me and I'm not familiar with.

[00:36:34]
But it sounds very familiar from others. And you said that if you think it is you found it. Somewhat problematic Admiral something like that and I was wondering if you want to hear why do you know that I'm going to faint tottered he is talking about India we're talking about me and I colonial nationalism above colonial Europeans very much Indians American agreement based on Indians garble experience but what people do with they find that you're an incredibly rich to apply to putting a weekend I going on national and outside.

[00:37:10]
The difference of the out of the inner is very in terms of the Indian miserable experience that impact. We begin to see where the Egypt another place is the woman question in national. Emerges in the in the in or in the inner city or. In takes off with national of the Indian the opposite it disappears from them and the inner the inner domain and so that period really about why this bipartisan in the disappearance of the woman in question during National was a murder and why was bank problematically going to not when you try to using a theoretical matrix in order to explain how that sort of discarding or disappearance of the woman in emerges and I'm actually trying to center stage be a you know well how the national numbering in a.

[00:38:03]
Place of national and. How would become center stage though is that there are not that the problematic to my own what is it better to use it to explain historical experience in one place in a different way that period you still use the Beatrix of that period in terms of what goes on in the outer and what goes on in the dynamic that's really what appealed to me rather than what happened to the woman.

[00:38:29]
OK I didn't want to do that and in that way since. You're used to. Actually what we're reading in the moment you have a master's concept or system in my world which has been which is exaggerated beer is like realm of material reproduction and women power versus going again or culture or yeah like there is that medically with what I am but when it's being critiqued or about.

[00:38:56]
That hearing and a part is that it reproduces that's going to do all spirit is I would take all the man in you know reproduces the private public domain and all this you know have you thing and little bodies that that region and that in order to. Analyze.

[00:39:15]
You know I mean if I get not every bit of the critique of that you can't get a good handle on it and problematic every year when you're using them to radical that already you know that you know I do know and I do and I know what the public is but there's also a lot of evidence critique because the back of your book at practice in terms of it because the histories of some of these European and American context you'll find that the public in the near particular you think you know of colonialism what is political to begin with that it's not just high politics in the public sphere that have been if you know the political in those terms the demarcation of public and private and worrying has been very right this is what the evidence have been arguing and so domestic worker even work in these others that me not to be considered when you walk in where there are you know talking.

[00:40:04]
Term the harbor monsters public sphere where they're talking about critiques of the government and what's going on. Those particular public activities were not considered significant and kind of dismissed as being part of the public sphere and I know that but I think in this regard in terms of tattered bases what was really important to me was to be about and this is why David Arnold is also important even Arnold tries to use a different type of ology when he talked about Medicare and perhaps there's sort of native medicine colonial minute then and then the third stage and I remember it.

[00:40:41]
Quite and this is what I was trying to capture when you chatter is that. There is an intermediary stage that happens where as a result of Western. That have to be considered Western superior technology and. Right there's an interaction that goes on with that in the cold. And.

[00:41:10]
That I have no idea what I'm going out to be about that technological place where it is superior to be distinguished from the inner sanctum that is called Her we're. Your last words when we sort of appropriated reappropriated as the want you want for national ones and that to me was the appeal of these because they're one of them and because they are interdependent what I'm saying or you didn't get to doctors are trained in the outer with that particular thigh and the technology to them really appropriate.

[00:41:40]
So I wanted to find a way to be able to do that and there's with the best way that I could but it really does is with trying to do know is that there is an intermediary mixing a cure and technology here that needs to be accounted for and why you David Arnold call in your medicine when you when you trying to know if they're implementing moment in history that has one being but also a lot of separating.

[00:42:04]
And so how do you designate. When you cross the. Right and make. Me and I don't know that it might. Be quite on you that in my heart I really been trying to figure out if this is the most efficient way to demonstrate what are. Treating. People our age.

[00:42:46]
At that like. The one and. Everywhere. I mean in bed in Bengali the. Sort of well. Being what. They were and what we are going to do. And we were right there with them in the back row but that. Was good. And. I wouldn't want that but yet.

[00:43:35]
The Labor. And then I was there with anything I want labor that would be having this. And I've been going on it. But. Anyway. Now you write another question and it was the midwives because I had Canadian nurses with that so there is a separate. Directory of their history of nursing project Korean history midwife but we're pretty trajectory here I mean the nurse midwives so they're just nurses and an Egyptian mother and this is a really good point in in the new curriculum that's modified so the English curriculum.

[00:44:23]
There is both so there was a nurse thing and then I'm in we re I mean we really we were taught me quickly and then in the medical you could be taught that the separate. Curriculum and tweener things. During this period of the consolidation and. So even even if you become a nurse midwife you have to do you have to take nursing home.

[00:44:47]
So essentially there's a shared curriculum now what about the actual identity of the practitioners the midwives sort of say what actually made want to bring home something when the baby I mean that well in that in the way is essentially a birth somebody give birth people are there any who are going to put them so always nurse I mean and usually the word that you know the school is called the after it's been reconfigured to training school or nurse midwife and nurse.

[00:45:17]
The way you. Used to is and why I'm using this word on holiday because you have all the dishes that are from the school and we're very ready with the school of Heikki map and we're humans use to nurse midwife Well you know and that there. Are. More to do I did bad but I feel like I played with your part of the question for curiosity and.

[00:45:44]
One of the things I was interested in I don't know if something that you break came across in the fourth or whether I wouldn't be able to find it was but one of the thing that's interesting with. One of the midwives and that is where I like the traditional usually you see about family members in the sixty's.

[00:46:03]
It could be I'm one of them. Midwives begin appropriating things like injection. Wells and they. Begin putting some of the kind of technology that you're talking about. The service is better you know better and better down the road because you know if you know the range of that white midwives are saying when the they use the wrong and they're cute.

[00:46:35]
And I think more I've heard where we're going to become But there's. The population as well and. You have a gory begin that. A certain look at the that you know what order to get more business made why you do have to start using a syringe. And I read about but not really been the focus you're talking that very much much more difficult to get that sort of thing.

[00:47:03]
But the period when I wondered if you had any. You had ANY that's the extent to which some of these crackers. If you read it may have gotten changing the practice of my life I mean we had time to get up the level but if you had any sense of how where and they had pulled her down or whether to really be there.

[00:47:26]
For the connection I can make a really good the only connection that I could make during two different periods there were periods where in the very beginning and this is really. You know especially true of. Reporters when you're with them but certainly in during colonialism there when the vaccination campaign and there was mortality.

[00:47:50]
And so be the nurse midwife becomes incredibly into a very critical force Bonser admitted to overturn the big problem and so they do it because they know the nurse midwives are not an. A number they asked them to big they put on complete crash course. Programs where they would bring in large numbers of these folks midwives and give them crash courses and they could they're poor and they would get white life or green lighted and demand the money they were there were things weeks or not three weeks or six weeks.

[00:48:29]
And after that they were allowed to practice their state so perhaps this is the beginning of a dire thinking the. In a position to appropriate technology because. They were allowed to before though of course when they are mentioned in their diet or trainmen what training. But they were then allowed to give vaccinations than they were allowed to birth babies so there may be a connection between those I'm not sure this is really interesting that they become competitors in kind of marketing themselves as practitioners and therefore you know the population can be very savvy about the services they were going.

[00:49:10]
With and really. Think You Are. Going to have a question. Probably. That loud. That. Yes they could do this because I don't. Think you still have midwives who are practice in fact their age and the like population in a variety of other that are very concerned and so you know they're trying to bring them in.

[00:49:58]
In a similar sort of way with. Genital mutilation in African villages. You know and you know who. World Health Organization how workers are going to bring them in and gradually try to change practices that what they're trying to do with that of displacing them and then you can practice.

[00:50:19]
Begin temporary approach of strangers to try to somehow create a new way of gradually changing. Habits our tradition has been better considered that are meant to either help or women. So they're still out there and who are they problematic way out there but there's no longer kind of demonisation I don't think there's I mean we're not up to date with contemporary health but you know I think the demonization that you do in the turn of the century me and the press you know women can do you know right it's a concert they're murdering our babies and there will be in backwards in their techniques or archaic and you know they make women lead to and they're kind of very.

[00:51:02]
Women. Because the good. Ones do. That. By. The way. But that. An internal matter that. They. Are there. Not only in the. Light although the. Way. I'm out of it. I'm not I can't really speak I want to begin to talk about the contemporary during this particular period they are very separate.

[00:52:04]
Men. Here we are and in fact according to you I mean this is the whole point of modern education and the idea that it is being disciplined it is a discipline and you want to learn a particular kind of knowledge that essentially serves the state. So and traditional medicine and there is no larger beneficiary like this in the way it would one practice has to do with the woman body and it being different philosophy of the woman's body in there or how medicine should treat the body where this place by modern medicine so during the period I'm talking about there was no the only collaboration in it they brought in the traditional folk life and trained them but they were not trained they were supposed to be there illegally right and medicine according to.

[00:52:55]
The I was wondering if there was. I mean not being green or no but. Whether they would have me and I could one you're never try to recreate in your bitterness no. Matter. Now not now when they need it all. Because that would be something that you might expect to run in another corner I mean and maybe that might be.

[00:53:26]
Pretty important when you're talking about the cuckoo you in terms of being all going to Malaysia one of the things and this is very common that binded that is produced in our practice during anti-colonial mass will then become the way in which things are ending identity so we are not new British and so we will not and if not even about whether one is right or not or whether it's about whether they really want to continue or not perhaps some of these nationals were very much against it but the point was to have the right to talk about her and you have the right to intervene and reappropriate in appropriate and meaning other than those who are living it is.

[00:54:02]
A way to you push back and then. Kind of even greater value there or I mean what you're ultimately doing is saying that is if you want to be who we can you have to be you have to be circumcised in the. By some of these traditions that many consider we may consider to be you know very violent toward women whereas And even now you don't see that sort of really appropriation of tradition or the traditional medicine.

[00:54:29]
Because the very premise of their New York should know is what Martin technology and the way that you know you know. I don't want to make that up not a good people but I don't know I mean but the question they need to ask and maybe I never would put in your heart but it would almost I mean that there's an argument that.

[00:54:53]
You know we work that you have been up there read the quote up on India have all the time. You know why did the body of literature and it always have something to do and you've done in your time the sort of. Way that would you get coped with being.

[00:55:10]
As it were if you could you know she brought to me and I just wonder if you could sort of expand a little bit. Expand on that. Sort of well you have to talk about the medical professional being very confident. In their appropriation of the break that they got that made her a bit of a they didn't call by the way it made them.

[00:55:36]
You know I mean hard hard about and I'm not sure you're doing your question I mean when I when I found it when I went into the project I thought it was going to be nice the barn. British and. You know Egypt and then when I come across this wonderful memoir by me give.

[00:55:56]
You more now not that when in fact we're not going to win the Nobel Prize winner with birth why does the Coptic mean. And you would more prominent. Christian and you have to admire and would be interesting in the gynaecologist by the. Kind of. Talk about complicated. And there's the.

[00:56:21]
You know you don't know one of the oldest Christian communities and they're very different from the one where the vast majority of the question about them today we know there are kind of political problems and these two communities. Never talk about it in those terms but is it a question of religion and religion friction and that of course you know during this period they're very resource lots of resources typically very well.

[00:56:53]
Trained by the British. Obviously. And with interesting reading of memoirs and heard of the coping it didn't feel like a holiday when you read it but to me it's sort of comes up and yes we were trained in medical training with rigorous and then you know when I got my degree I would basically you know slap around these British mentors who you know really don't know what they're doing I mean one would come in and they didn't want anybody has directed me and I would be like What are you talking about you know Egypt an intern it gives an idea of your being the body must be preserved you never take out particularly with the new what are you talking about I mean that all we need to do is and then you get very technical and actually you know they do that procedure and of course.

[00:57:37]
She's cured and it's been there it becomes a risk of an invasion you know sort of where we're at the moment where and so. You know when you look at the institutional changes in the kind that their condemnation is not by one. But there seems to be the other dimension here that doesn't in Butte in the back and not imbued with violence and not imbued with force in the way that brutal wars in the way that we think about it the different.

[00:58:04]
I know where we're going to get my argument and that is equally impacting though not in the way that we've kind of been. And so there is a power struggle in there and there is benefit and there is good that comes out of this back the nation better how I was standard of.

[00:58:23]
Might expect to be. So hard to kind of find particularly on the topic of medicine then you know we're is the underbelly and it seemed to be actually more located in the way that the gender we're talking about who is receiving the short end of the day get women who are not doing the coding and well.

[00:58:43]
Well into with speaking and so I think we're reading a meal memoirs and we don't have all rich midwives here. I am determined to find something or other but they're in the end so we don't really even know that the directive experience of these women but if we kind of look at some other sources to put it together.

[00:59:06]
I mean they're coping on both band but it really is one and then the second term the. Real undervalue is when. I'm done trying to make. How do we understand I mean are we all buying into or during the year the progress and all the progress and. The way all should be because that in.

[00:59:32]
Words. And yet then you look at these sorts of things in the. You know on the one hand the one thing that you women and on the other hand there were not great things will you how do you how do you weigh it what's better one of the better than one of the you know what it would be I'm going to be quite honest but I'm not sure.

[00:59:51]
You can pay hoping but at the end of the day for me the more important question in that coping. Is going to be coping and then even and I do you do when the women are not. You know. They are more. Than.