So. My name is Greg book. The laser just up working OK. I work here at the nanotechnology research center under Professor Jim mind And I'm. The principal research engineer and the assistant director for research here. And the reason why I wanted to give this talk. Well let me give you a little of my background first. I've been here at Tech for about seven years now. I graduated with my Ph D. from tech in one thousand nine hundred sixty material science and then I worked out in industry for about seven years at Intel Corporation and I came back here to work under Dr MEINDL. To be part of the expansion of the. Georgia Tech clean room to serve users outside of Georgia Tech. We have a large grant from the N.S.F. called the national nanotechnology infrastructure network Grant and. Our job is pretty much to make these same resources that are available here in our clean rooms available to researchers outside of Georgia Tech. And the reason behind that is that it's very expensive to operate a cleaner like you guys have access to and not every school can do that. So we make those resources available to other schools and other small companies and even large companies who don't quite have access to all of the infrastructure that we have so the reason why I want to talk today is that during my time here. I have quite a number of users who ask me How do I use the E X on the S E N. OK And then as we get into to discussing it. I may find out that they don't need to use the E X they need to use the X P S where they need to use X. ray diffraction they need they need to carry. Riser material in some other way than what they think they need to characterize that material. So I think it's worth it to take this time and begin and this is I hope what is the beginning of a series of. Technical scimitars for our users. You know which most of you are. To discuss not only characterization techniques but also best practices in maybe plasma etching or C.V. D. or or or something that have to do with your processing in the cleaner. So today however I do want to discuss characterization techniques at the N.R.C.. And what they're used for what they're. What type of materials can be used. What kind of information you get from these techniques. And I was hoping I would I was waiting for. Brant Carter to show up. I thought was going to be here. He's really the. The Georgia Tech resident expert in. Characterization materials characterization he knows everything there is a know about surface science and he's always been my resource. When I need information about what technique is best and also how to interpret the data that I get off of some of the some of these tools we have. Hopefully he'll show up because I was going to for any questions to him but since you don't. Here I'll see what I can do. All right so. Today. Like I said this is not your normal nanotech seminar I'm not going to talk about my research because I don't have any research. I'm going to talk about our capabilities and hopefully. You guys will learn something about what you need to use to do your research. Where to spend most of the time on. Can anybody see that dot. OK We're going to spend most of the time. Getting to know S.C.M. an E.T.S.. How many people use the sci. Right. This is probably the most used this is a what I call a workhorse tool. This is the most used tool on campus. It's got to be because everyone needs to look at their samples and sometimes they look at huge samples sometimes a look at tiny samples. So understanding. How many people take an S.C.M. class. Right. So like three people out of all you so there's a lot of theory in and complicated electronics behind S.C.M. an E.T.S. that if you understand it makes using the tool out easier especially when you need to do chemical characterization of your samples. So we spend some time talking about that. X. ray photo electron spectroscopy this is also very powerful tool for surface characterization. And now we have some much more capable equipment within the N.R.C. than we used to have. Violent photo electron spectroscopy X. ray diffraction time of flight sims. X. ray florescence and Raman spectroscopy So these are. There's a lot more out there to do characterization of your equipment but this is what we have here so this want to talk about and I only have an hour and I'm hoping no one takes thirty minutes. OK So let's start by understanding a little bit about electron and specimen interactions. So there's basically two types of two main types of scattering when you bombard a surface with an electron beam. You've got elastic scattering and you've got inelastic scattering. Elastic scattering are events that effect the trajectories of the beam electrons inside the specimen without altering the kinetic energy of the electrons So basically what's wrong goes in and it moves and still has all of its energy. Inelastic scattering. Are the events there is old in the transfer of some of the. Energy from the electron beam or beam electrons to the specs to the atoms inside the specimen. So inelastic means they're losing their energy right here's an example of elastic scattering right your billiard balls nice nice classical example not quite purely elastic but pretty close. You know billiard balls and ice and hard to hit on the bounce off each other. It's kind of elastic scattering. So inelastic scattering in elastic scattering the beam electron hoops vaca. It interacts with the atom in the sample and scatters resulting a change in the velocity vector of the electron. But very little change in energy or no change in energy. So he won this illegal the easier But it changes direction. Now elastic scattering are the ones that we're interested in doing chemical characterization because whenever you have any last elastic scattering. There is a transfer of energy. Whenever there's a transfer of energy. There's something going on within your atom that creates these. These transitions electronic transitions and whenever that happens there's all kinds of characteristic transitions that occur that you can use to identify what that element is. So elastic scattering or Rutherford scattering. Is when it is the electron is scattered by cool interactions with the charge of the atomic nucleus. OK there is some energy loss. I'm sorry this is a lasting scattering and we get to. Inelastic scattering next. So the energy loss is negligible. The scattering angle can be anywhere from zero to two pi. And then back scatter electrons are the ones that come back out of the surface. OK Now inelastic scattering this is the one that's interesting. I apologize for that. This is when the beam a lecture. John. Interacts with the atom and it transfers energy OK I like to use this illustration here because it's just cute. Clearly this automobile underwent inelastic scattering with his boat right. Deformed bumper deformed you know wheels the boats torn up so it transferred its energy to this boat right. So inelastic scattering. The energy. Transferred can range from a fraction of an electron volt up to the instant electron volt in its I mean meaning it can use a little bit lose a little bit of its energy or can lose all of his energy. And so it can do that through a number of ways. There's all these different types of interactions you've got your phone on excitement. You've got plasma excitement secondary electronics Siteman brim strong X. ray generation and of course iron is ation of your electrons in your inner cells. So. When using S.C.M.. You've got your primary beam electron beam coming down and hitting your surface. And once it hits your surface it now starts interacting with the surface. The amount of interaction is greatly dependent on the initial beam intervene. OK. If you have a very high. Initial energy you get lots of interaction. If you have low energy. You don't get so much interaction. Into the surface. OK So the types of interactions that are occurring within this interaction volume what we call it or the volume of primary excitation or interaction volume. You get X. rays generated characteristic X. rays from inside this area. Also from outside of this area some Sometimes if you get X. rays interacting with X. rays. You can get O.J. electrons escaping from the surface. Yes secondary electrons and I'm a define these later. Coming from also near the surface back scattered electrons coming from inside of your interaction volume. So experimentally. This is what it looks like if so this researcher here is that of a textbook by the way it visually shows the interaction volume of the electron beam what was done here is basically if you if you expose P.M.A.. The X. rays of the P.M.A. is dependent on how long it was exposed or the dosage it got from the electron beam. If you guys do and then of the few who does the E.B.M. then of the target the you guys kind of know that the dosage affects your development time of your resists right. Now I'm not making that up right. OK So this is kind of visually what what what happens when your electron beam interacts with. The surface. OK. And another type of thing you need to think about when using I.C.M. is. Topography. So when imaging with the S.T.M.. If you look at a sample that has a lot to park on it. Some areas look brighter than other areas. The tilted areas appear brighter than the flat areas. The reason for that is this is because if this is your sample surface or or your sample orientation. OK if you tilt your sample the electron beam is always coming straight down. OK the electron beam come straight down. And as you tilt your sample you actually start getting into that interaction volume. Well this right here this layer. About of about fifty nanometers of your surface. That's the depth from which secondary electrons can escape deeper. In that the secondary electrons can't really escape. And you're using that as the in your book mostly looking at secondary electrons. So if they can escape from in here you're still only getting kind of imaging from. This area mostly and then some of this area. And as you tilt it. You're starting to get a lot of secondary electrons coming out of this escape depth. So it'll appear a lot brighter until the sample peers a lot brighter and the S.C.M. So that's why they are so let's look at some of the interactions that the atoms have with the electron beam. And this is where we get to now our characterization our chemical characterization of your samples. So in the second there electron beam comes in and interacts it can knock out the say this is our instant electron beam coming from here. It hits an inner shell electron it scatters and it can also E. ject that electron if it effects that electron it leaves a vacancy. OK when this electron in the outer shell relaxes into that vacancy. It can release. Of a photon of energy. OK that photon of energy is what we call our X. It's an X. ray photon it's characteristic of this transition. Of only this atom this transition has a characteristic energy. Now it could also instead of emit a Instead of emitting an X. ray photon it could emit and oj electron and electron is basically an internal conversion of the energy from the relaxation of this electron over to another electron that pops out. So it has also characteristic energy that's related to this. Transition. So in S.C.M. speak. This is the type of notation that is used to identify that radiation. So if you if you're if you're relaxing or you're exciting from say. Your ground state all the way up to your outer electron and then you relax or your outer shell. Let's say you relax from this outer shell down to your L. shell then that's called decay alpha radiation. OK. And whenever you go from you know so. So the physicists like to use this K. L. M. in notation for their electron shells. So if you want to call you know. So each material has its own number of orbitals and it's got its own characteristic. Emission depending on how many electrons are can't can transition within that that atom and so this is just how they this is how they notated notate that that transition. All right so let's talk about E.T.S.. Here at the N.R.C.. So like I mentioned the type of signal that we're detecting India X. using the S.C.M. and it can you can also use T.E.M.A. as well but we don't have any T.M.C. here. So if you're using S.C.M.. One of the you know the signal that you're detecting a characteristic X. rays emitted from that first few microns of the surface. And the uses Well elemental composition with imaging. So the cool thing about S.C.M. is that you can take your image. And you get all know how as the images are very detailed very powerful to determine structure. You can do an X. ray map and you can overlay the compositional information with your topographical information. And so it gives you a lousy you to visually see that. This area is rich in Copper this area is rich in nickel etc. It's quite quantitative. It's easy to use and it's ubiquitous S.T.M. is everywhere. I mean ary. Every college ever been to has some sort of an SE in there somewhere on campus. And companies all companies have S E M's. I mean the bigger companies have their S.E.'s because it's just such a powerful tool. So one of the limitations Well the Tomic number needs to be greater than Boron it really has a hard time detecting elements lighter than Boron. You need vacuum compatible materials because in and electron microscope you have to be under vacuum. The sample size is pretty much chamber dependent. So like in our Zeiss we can load. A eight inch wafers. I think. Yeah we can load eight inch wafers through that sample chamber. The resolution is point one to want to Tomic percent. Under best conditions. The depth resolution as I mentioned is about a half to three microns depending on your material of course lateral resolutions about point three micro So the lateral resolution is not as good as your S.C.M. imaging resolution. Right because as I've shown the X. rays are getting emitted from a wider lateral area than your secondary electron in the images are coming from. And the samples need to be conductive. But it's OK to have to gold coat your insulating samples and you can still get information from that but the gold coating needs to be thin. So what do we have at the N.R.C. we've got the Zeiss which is a very good microscope. We've got the touchy thirty seven hundred. In the organic. They in the Marcus building here. We have the thirty five hundred in the pet a clean room so we have an electron microscope capable of X. in. Both clean rooms and one outside the cleaner. And this is what the E X spectra looks like it after you after you take it so here we had a sit we have some lines. OK some gold lines. And. If we take a spectra of this area right here we get silicon oxygen and some gold. We take a spectrum here we get silicon oxygen and some gold. Well you'll notice that even though we're not scanning the go there. We're getting some gold signal and that's because of the spread of the X. rays coming the the generation of a you know the interaction of the electron beam with the whole surface so we're getting signals from a much wider area than just where the electron beam is because of the back scatter electrons because of the secondary electron interaction with itself as I showed you earlier. So this is kind of an example of that. So even though it says we're getting gold right here this is one thing you gotta be careful about with the dx is you got to understand it. Well you know there's probably really no gold right there but it's telling us we have gold. So what I want to take away from this is if you're doing media X. Don't don't don't just take the data that it gives you and tell you that and assume that it's giving the exact information because it's saying there's a woods of ten percent of gold right here and that's clearly not the case. OK. The other types of interaction that because of that so all of our characterization techniques pretty much involve either electron interaction with Adams to generate X. rays. X. ray interaction with the atom. To generate electrons or extra interaction with the atoms to consume to generate X. rays. And limit let me take a backless it's not just X. ray interaction but but. Electromagnetic Radiation interaction so it could be ultraviolet light as well. So the photoelectric effect is talk about what happens when atoms interact with radiation. So when the service is irradiated with say X. rays or ultraviolet light. The electric electrons get excited and they relax and they emit just like they did in the previous example. So photo electrons escape when the instant energy is exactly that of its binding energy and they're measured when the kinetic energy exceeds a Fermi level that of the detector so this is specific to an X. P.S. system. So let's say you've got a detector. You're reading a sample with X. rays. And you're going to measure the photo electrons are coming off. So the way the X. the experience works is we give it a monochrome aided energy beam of X. rays. And as we radiate the samples that's going to be. That's going to be this right here. OK. As we irradiate the sample photo electrons pop out. We're going to measure the energy of those electrons Osisko right here in order to measure those electrons they've got to get to a detector. So in order to detect them they've got to overcome the Fermi and level of the detector itself so that's discovered right right here. What's left is the binding energy to generate that extra or that photo electron. So that's the way X. B.S. measures. The characteristic energy of that material. So the way it works is you've got this instant photon coming in the Jets. A photo electron. Straight out of the straight out of one of. One of the inner shells other things that could happen is that as it as these electrons relax in these other shells these inner shells were generating the same characteristic X. rays that we were. In the previous example. But what we're going to be detecting are these photo electrons instead the notation that is used for X P S is something that is titanium one S. So this electron coming out is going to be a titanium one as electron. OK Just in addition to generating. Photoelectric ons we could generate oj electrons. OK suppose a electrons are emitted when the energy released and forgive me for reading this but I'm going to. From relaxation of an outer shell electron to a vacant inner shell and the energy is transferred directly to another outer shell electron. So in this example here. I want to as level electron is excited by the irradiating energy. An electron from the two S. level relaxes filling the want us whole. The transition energy is transferred to a two P. a lecture on. Which is emitted. So the spectroscopic notation for that transition is it for this particular atom oxygen K. L. one L. and you put two three because you can't tell if it's two or three they have the same energy. Sometimes of the sail too and this is the way that looks from an energy band diagram. You've got. Emission of this electron relaxation of this electron emission of that all of that electron that was a electron. OK So let's talk now about the strengths and weaknesses of these of these techniques so for. So the radiation source in both I put both X P S and U.P.S. on the same slide here but for X. P.S. the uses. I mean what we use is the aluminum K. off a peak of one point five six. Havey that means we're radiating the entire sample with one point five six. K.V. and all the radiation coming off. Can go from zero to one point five six K.V. and the way that we detect it is you're basically scanning your your detector has a certain pass in or G. and it detects certain energies as it as it ramps. So this is just collecting the photo electrons that come off the surface. And U.P.S. we use a U.V. lamp and we're using twenty one point two electron volts. OK so that's a big difference right one point five six that. Fifteen hundred versus twenty one right. So the benefit of using your P.S. is that you basically and I'll go down here to skip down here for a sec is you're getting valence band structure. Is that U.P.S. really can't eat ject those inner shell electrons are just and doesn't have enough energy. But it's very good at looking at the valence electrons in heavier metals and also in. Some other organic type of materials. So any way the signal detected we have further electrons and electrons are emitted that are near the surface one to ten animators this is the strength of X. P.S. and U.P.S. it's very surface sensitive because the photo electrons have. They don't that they can escape from a very very deep in the in the sample they can only come from the first one to ten nanometers of your sample. So these are very powerful surface science tools. So the use of course surface analysis of inorganic materials stains or residues ability to determine chemical states and you can do depth profiling in both tools you have you can sputter away the surface. Do your X. P.S. better way the surface to your X. P.S. so you can you can profile your sample. You profile the chemical composition of your of your sample into the sample. The strings is quite quantitative and you get elemental and chemical state analysis. So some of the limitations. Well I mean these are really limitations but. I say it because these are there are there limits. Point zero one to one atomic percent depending on what you're looking at. You have to have you H.V. compatible materials because photo electrons are such low energy. Coming out in order to detect them you need to prevent them from undergoing any other collisions in the gas. So you need you. H.V. conditions. Of course sample size but as such. Back in chamber dependent in the in the thermo tool that we have here you can take about a. I say it two and a half inch square sample. The smallest area is. Ten microns in R K off a tool the smallest there is thirty microns because it's you know it's kind of hard to collimate X. rays. So you have to do it using apertures and so the smallest aperture we have is thirty microns. But it can detect atomic numbers greater than helium. So you really it's pretty much most everything right. This is what the spectra look like you know the X P S spectra. You start scanning this way and you're measuring the binding energy and you see you get nice clear peaks when you have a copper carbon want to oxygen one has these are Oshea peaks remember the notation is different. So these are O'Shea peaks. In the U.P.S. spectrum. You notice the energy only goes from zero up to about twenty. But the difference is you can get these chemical state. You get your resolution is much finer So for the valence band. You can you can differentiate between the chemical states. Much more easily than you can with X.P. Yes. Now another technique. Is that we have here is called X. ray diffraction. X. ray diffraction is very good for identifying phases of your material. It can identify just about any material that's in a solid crystal in form and for which there is a library of known. Lattice spacing. The way it works is off Bragg's law. I am greatly over simplifying for this presentation because X. ray diffraction is one of the toughest courses I've ever took ever taken. But it up rates off of this in lambda equals to the scientists that are you've got your your wavelength of your X. ray. You've got the lattice spacing and you've got this angle coming off the only time you will get. This brag diffraction is when you have planes that are parallel to the surface and you can get this construct of. What you have to have constructive interference in your waves as they come off of your different light. I lettuces. And that's how you you do your detection. So it requires that the planes be pair. Well flat I guess normal. Parallel whatever you know eat the idea right. Is that only only only different diffraction only occur from these floodplains. All right. And so. You can use different types of radiation sources but it has to be monochromatic and has to be known. And that way you. You know your lambda from there you can you can calculate your your DE because you. Usually people use a theta to theta system where both the detector and the source do this. So you're constantly keeping. That angle. Equal to each other. All right so. In most sources that I've ever used we have the copper K. off a source and that's what we have in our Philips expert system and the two forty eight. And the signal are based that we are detecting are X. rays. So you send X. rays in get X. rays out. This is a nondestructive technique for characterizing crystal in the materials it provides information on structures phases preferred Crystal orientations I.E. texture and other structural parameters such as average grain size Crystal and straining Crystal teeth. So the very powerful tool for understanding. Christopher doing crystallography. It is nondestructive. Quantitative it can be done. You don't need vacuum conditions you just put it in it's under it's under under ambient conditions easy sample prep mostly people do powder diffraction but you CAN I did when I was here a lot of thin film. Diffraction. But you have to make sure it's flat. It's got to be very flat. Some of the limitations where the material has to be crystal and you can't look at a more of this materials the analysis area is actually you know. This is small for. Most X. ray tools. But it has to be you know you the area you can look at is actually going to be pretty big. But you can get about one percent quantitative analysis from the from the areas of the peaks. OK. Another tool we have is. Time of flight since. This is an extremely sensitive. Spectroscopic technique. I'm going to show you at the end of this. All the all the techniques compared to one another but the way it works is you have a primary eye on being that comes into your sample and it bounces around a transfer of energy. Well. Well once in a while you'll get an atom from the surface. Popping off. OK just because of all these interactions eventually there's going to transfer enough energy to one of these surface atoms to escape. OK to overcome its work function and to escape in a vacuum. Once it gets in the vacuum. It goes through a mass spec. So I'm aspect takes that mass and it has to be charged in order to accelerate it. But when it when it does that you get a mass to charge ratio and that is very well it's discreet for a particular type material. It's very characteristic. So. A uses are gone. Atoms it detects the secondary ions that are generated from the surface. You can collect the full periodic table and molecular species because anything that comes off the surface and can get charged will go through the mass spec and you will get a mass to charge ratio as long as it exists in the library some are out there or in the literature somewhere out there you will be able to identify a material on the surface. So the strings is a highly sensitive. It's actually parts per million for most elements. And that's basically and that's that's based on the mass spec part of it. You can get actually sub monolayer resolution meaning you can collect one two atoms out of a model year and get information. Pretty high resolution high lateral resolution because you're taking a you know is amazing collimate your argon ions that's going to be your ultimate resolution. Chemical imaging insulating in conductive samples and it's nondestructive that's kind of not intuitive it's not Mr nondestructive because you're taking atoms off the surface but you know taking so few that it's nondestructive. The. I think our tough since can take eight inch wafers is that right. Hong you know eight inch. You need standards to point to do quantitative analysis. Sometimes it's too sensitive and trace contamination can affect your results so if you're going to do time of flight sims and you put your fingerprint on the areas you want to look at you're probably not going to get a good you're going to get good results. But you get info from only one to two monitors. So it's very powerful. And I guess that we have this over in lab one sixty one. It's called the ion tough tough Sims five. I think and. Walter's not here but Walker and Hong both know how to use that tool. Ok X. ray fluorescence. This is the final example of. You know radiating. And beam and. And detected beam combination this is this is hitting something with X. rays. And detecting the X. rays. So just like with. With the electron beam. We're going to detect the characteristic X. rays that come off but instead of using the electron beam to to generate the X. rays we're going to use X. rays. So it can do elemental identification of solids liquids powders and alloys it's nondestructive you can do for way for elemental mapping. Liquid and solid quantitative analysis is possible as long as your standards the sampling depth is deep. However because you're hitting with X. rays and you're getting backs X. rays X. rays penetrate you know materials pretty deeply. So you're going to get information from the bulk of your material. The limitations are the atomic number greater than aluminum. Ten parts per million of detection is pretty good though. There's. No imaging involved and no mapping involved because basically you just you know irradiating a sample with a lot of X. rays. And the lateral resolution is about one hundred microns that's you know depends on how well you can collimate your X. rays. We have the Kev X. OMAC Ron X R F. And that's in lab two forty eight. Raman spectroscopy. This is not Raman spectroscopy I put it up there just looks really nice. It's a nice sunset right. And it's kind of you know it's Raleigh scattering So this is is the is the analogous example to Rama scattering rallies scattering is basically elastic scattering remember when I talk about elastic an elastic scattering elastic means there's you know there's no energy loss it's just you know changing directions. So this is basically what happens a sunset. Well sometimes you get inelastic scattering of monochromatic light with molecular vibrations I really don't know Raman spectroscopy very well and also don't ask me a single question on this. The So anyway the impinging photonics excites a molecule from the ground state to a higher virtual energy state not to an actual injuries energy state. If it were to go to an energy state you're going to get back these characteristic X. rays upon relaxation. This goes to this virtual energy state. And then when it relaxes it emits a photon and returns to a different rotational vibrational state. So what happens is because it returns to a different state. You've got a shift in the in the in the overall photon energy. You can get so it's like this one this one goes. Comes down to a lower energy so that's going to shift. Red. I think. And then this will ship blue. Don't write that down. So anyway. So the excitation source you get visible layer you can have near I R You can have near U.V. light. The detected signal is that same light. After it undergoes the elastic scattering with the sample. So it's used to identify the molecular structure of organic and inorganic compounds for contamination Alice's material classification. You can characterize carbon layers like you know you can tell they didn't regret graphic in Diamond carbon. Non covalent on that information. So it's nondestructive it's capable of identifying organic functional groups and compounds and there is no vacuum required. So some of the limitations. You can analyze about a one micron Square area. It's not so quantitative you do get a lot of fluorescence interference. No very not very surface incident so it goes pretty deep interest pretty deep. So this is my last slide in this I want you guys to know where to get this is that the Evans and little group website labs dot com. An excellent It's also posted in the S.C.M. room. But this is a great chart to help you pick what technique you need to use. To do your analysis of your samples. It basically shows the sensitivity here. Shows the spot size here. So the ones that we have we've got we've got. We have here as the M.E.D.S. ramón X. P.S. X. ray diffraction X. very reflective it's an up not actually reflectors actually fluorescents we've got time of flight sims and that's it. So we cover this area in this area. We don't have dynamic sands. We don't have I.C.B.M.'s. But this is this is what you what you all have your your. To you for your research right now. OK And the reason I wanted to do this is and I was hoping that Brett would be here because we've been talking about. Offering up some short courses to our users there not. Classes but they'd be. You know one two day afternoons where we just go into depth about how the equipment. Is used most effectively and optimally. So what I mean like I saw here not many people took the S.C.M. course it's an extremely valuable course if you want to really understand how to use S.C.M. but it's a graduate level course and it takes a whole semester right. So we're talking about trying to offer up some of these characterisation courses in the form of. New kind of extended seminars. You know word or short courses so. We haven't done much more than just talk about it at this point. But I think that would be valuable to the users and and I would I welcome any of your feedback as to if you would attend it. So. Any questions. Thank you. It's Evans and a little group. It's not on here. Eat A.G. labs. Dot com. Yeah. Not yet we're filling up some space downstairs and we'll get a T.M. as part of a faculty moved. It's upcoming. So and it will be accessible to the users probably going to be a Tech nine I. Like he's still he's still looking at the top. Titan G two maybe but anyway it's pretty good. T M. So the so there are certain tools we're going to Death profiling So what you would do is you would take a surface scan. Using something like X P S. It's very surface sensitive. Then you sputter it away better away of the top layer then you take another scan then you sputter away another layer and take another scan. And you can plot. Your elemental peaks with depth and so that will tell you. If you have any transitions between surface materials down to underlying fears. Yeah I would destroy your sample. Yes destructive. I don't know how to do analysis at depth without getting surface information from the I think you need to do depth profiling in this destructive. Pinholes. Kind of film. Usually those show up after you do your metal ization and you've got a short one. Yeah. That's kind of hard. Does anybody know I mean is there a way to nondestructively characterize pinholes in a dielectric. And I don't know what. You know what that was about to ask so what do you think is the density of these things. How many of them are there. Yeah there's a big hole or they're all over the place where they're going or to. You know it's just yet. So what Sarah saying is you could you could take the S.C.M. you can image in the S.C.M. and you can and you can look over samples and hopefully finally get a job right out. How big are the holes again. Yeah but I'm like after death smartass. Like. So you can talk to Hong after this. In the questions. And I will thank you all for coming. Appreciate and I hope this was informative and if you have any. Any you know questions about which takes and techniques to use you can talk to myself in talk to Hong standing talk to Walter Henderson. We're all members of the staff here. Thank you.