Or used to disappear so

I would stay every text of the last
five years I've been doing this.

I can't think of a see
one that is not sure.

So I'm either optical or like anybody tell
me it's all single so I'm writing it.

I'd like to know.

So that's one of the reasons are invited
today speaker Richard Brown from envy

a scientific side to the consultants
who is a real expert

in my prosperity my cross in
general which is undergraduate

work in chemistry at Westfield State
Massachusetts and masters in forensics.

There is a chemistry at
Northeastern University and

spent a number of years as a criminalist
Orange County sheriff's office

before joining and V.A. scientific career
he's currently executive director so

this is going to give us some real
practical advice on how to go.

Thanks David.

Yeah we can switch him
over the video you were

watching was actually done and

this we have a little homemade hot stage
which is just a glass microscope slide.

It's got an Indian tin coating on it the
same type of technology that ten aircraft

windshields put to it heats up.

It's great for watching.

Stuff Melandri crystallise So it's
a what we call a poor man's hot stage.

Now I have to do is drop a high
definition camera on top over again.

So today I wanted to resent you with
the world's most powerful analytical tool.

It's missing a light source and
it's missing an operator or

a user but most of the problems at
least I deal with in a daily basis.

Can only be solved with a microscope

not necessary a certain essence should not
necessarily a polarized light microscope.

We have scanning electron microscope
transmission electron microscopes for

a transform infrared microscopes
kind focal Remonde microscopes but

this is the work course right here.

So as we go through the presentation
Now I'll tell you a little bit more about

why we use it in the types
of problems we can solve.

So characterization and

source identification by lighting
the lights from across to be.

If I can make your.

You know we go.

So in in our world everything we see.

Well is everything most Everything
is Illuminated from above

the sun's above are used to
seeing things in that manner.

Most of what we see is in reflected light
and actually be pretty weird if all of

a sudden we saw everything
with transmitted light.

We all look a little bit different.

It may not be desirable but that's
the way that's what we're used to seeing.

But with a microscope.

We can change how all that works.

So we all know we can magnify
things with a microscope.

That's pretty basic right.

But when I only think of
chemical my cross could be or

problem solving with a microscope as in
any type of application in chemistry.

We want contrast.

With a mass spec we want contrasts we
want to resolve different fragments.

Or the G.C. We want to resolve different.

Peaks as we separate things
that go through the G C.

So we're looking for contrast and
with a light microscope or any microscope.

We're looking for magnification with
the main thing we want is contrast I

want you to keep that in
mind as we go through.

To this.

So you know we got reflected
light we got salt and pepper.

No big deal.

It looked a little bit different and
transmitted like salt.

It's got a single refractive index.

It's crystal in but it's isotropic
single refractive index pepper so

organic material to
actually multicellular.

Anything we look at.

It has different types of properties
depending on how we look at it.

And what it is most of my words.

When I look at contamination on a surface.

That drives how I actually approach
if I have a polymer material

fragments of a polymer I'm not probably
not going to put in that any S.C.M.

I'm probably going to go right to
the F.B.I. are the polarized light.

So as we magnify things
we get more information.

Transmitted light a cotton fibers.

Glue pointer.

Things.

We can actually see.

How the fibers twist.

And we can actually see that
the cell walls and the outside.

And we've got this little
lumen in the middle.

So the cross-section kind of looks like.

And like an infinity sign or
something like that.

We cross the polarizers looks
totally different here.

We actually have a polarizer at the base
of the microscope we're putting polarized

light through the sample and that's
oriented east west routinely We also have

an analyzer which is another polarizer
in the top part of the microscope.

That's oriented north south when
we cross them our field goes dark.

Unless there is something in the optical
path that only interact with that light

in this case the cottons interacting.

It doesn't go to extinction.

And this is just the way cotton works.

It's really easy to figure out.

OK this this picture's more typical
of a dust sample or a contamination.

We've got lots of paper fibers.

Everybody see the wings yet.

And sometimes it's difficult to pick
up you're not really looking for

that you see the insect parts.

Hairy Legs.

You really see the wings.

Which takes a little bit of practice
a lot of times you're looking at so

much material at one time.

It's a little bit overwhelming so
it takes time for

your mind to sort these things out.

But again I just transmitted light would
partially cross polars if we look at

materials that have been coatings
like mica particles with a thin

layer of titanium dioxide a lot of
pigments that are used on automobiles and

Aviv ever walk by a car kind of
looks black to get to the side and

it's kind of paint or purple
the color of flip flops a little bit.

Back in the seventy's it was very
expensive to do that but basically

you've got Mica particles or some other
particles that have a thin film on him.

So as you walk around the car the way
the light hits it changes it and

it changes color.

So in this case this is typical of the
pigment we have on our twenty dollar bills

you look at it in reflected
light you see one color.

Transmitted light looks totally
different and these are new concepts but

there are clues to me when I do my
analysis when I do my examination

because a lot of times Mica
is present make up and

a lot of folks wear make up and
it gets to be a problem in manufacturing.

When I when I talk to groups
especially attorneys.

I have a question form.

And when I talk to groups
especially young people.

Twelve and
under I asked the same question.

If I had an apple in an orange.

And I could shrink them down really small.

Would I still be able to tell the apple
from the orange shoes in a microscope.

If I asked the kids at almost every hand
goes up and they say yes it's a big deal.

The lawyers only seen anything they
think is a trick question really quiet.

I don't know I don't know about that one
but yes I mean soon we could do that.

It's not a big deal into the to
the to the light microscopy is.

A lot of what we do the particles that
we look at are a simple to tell apart

as an apple in an orange.

So just imagine for a second that these
are the two particles we're dealing with

immediately we see color differences

we see shape differences we see
differences in the surface more of ology.

If we were to cut them open we
see a difference in cross-section

the orange should have a thicker
skin in a different interior

then the apple the apple have
a thinner skin would be different.

Inside.
We do the same thing with particles.

Who look at the outside.

We we try to get light through and
to look at the inside.

Sometimes we have to cut them we
have to use a moment section and

sometimes we have to use a non
millon section all depends on

the particle the whole idea is to
characterize them as best we can.

And the biggest difference
between characterization is and

identification is a technique you used and
even

how much you want to pay characterization
is relatively inexpensive.

You get a lot of red particles
they could be apples.

And sometimes because some
are says That's great.

I know where those are coming from.

But if we want to know what species
apple that is actually get expensive.

We may have to get a botanist and
do a little more work.

I don't know if they can do D.N.A.

on an apple but
if you can't you probably will be soon.

So it's a little more expenditure.

To get to the identification point.

That's a very point important
differentiate and different

difference to make because of the cost
involved in the amount of information and

work you have to do.

Scanning electron microscope and
we fairly familiar with that.

We've got an energy dispersive X.
ray spectrometer attached.

It really can identify anything you can
tell us you can tell iron from copper and

you can tell the metal alloys to some
extent if you can't tell the difference.

Tell me the difference between three or
four three or four stainless and three

sixteen which can't tell the different
types apart it's not that sensitive.

Plus you know any have any crystal graphic
information where you got it's a black and

white picture in E.D.S. spectrum.

I mean you could have different detectors
and you could have cathode a luminescent

all kinds of different
things that help you but

it's not an identification technique.

Poor eyes light my cross be on their hand
on the other hand you have all types of

optical properties you can look at and
actually make an identification refractive

index some particles have multiple
refractive in the C.S. fire for engines.

You can identify particles
with mineralogist

geologists have been using
the techniques for years.

The microscope is over
three hundred years old.

The polarising light microscope came
about in the late eighteen hundred so

that's to over two hundred years two
hundred years hundred fifty years.

Some way that they've been around a while.

Classification and they definitely can.

So first thing that usually
happens is there's a problem.

We don't always catch the people
responsible in the act.

This is rare.

This is a rare thing usually
the children are gone

the baby powder viler bottle is gone or
just this white dust.

If it was my house that
would be a problem.

OK for the little girl who's
getting the business and

that this is probably a problem for
her too.

She's not happy.

But if it happened in this school or

in this room and the first person
in the morning came in and

this well white powder was all over
the place that would be a problem.

We don't know what that
stuff is is it benign.

Is it baby powder or did something
put some anthrax or something in here

is necessarily meant to be toxic or
to harm people we just don't know.

I was on a commission.

Gees.

Probably five or six years ago now World
Trade Center back in two thousand and

one September eleventh when the towers
were destroyed by terrorists

and E.P.A. eventually was trying
to characterize as dust and

reason is what buildings are contaminated
what buildings that we have to clean up.

Me being practical.

I say the contamination goes from this in
the Manhattan to that in the Manhattan and

probably over to New Jersey and
in like the audience or

they didn't want to clean all of
that they wanted one thing was or

one thing in this dust microscopically
they'll tell us it's from this event.

Only answer is no.

But.

If we look at the dust.

Transmitted light microscope.

It's primarily composed
composed the glass.

Glass fragments glass fibers and
these fibers that are kind of bent.

They're actually mineral they're spun like
cotton candy and used for insulation.

Ceiling tiles.

Just about pipe wrapping
just about anything and

think of the uses very inexpensive and
it's a very good insulator.

The problem is mostly glass.

So a lot of people are breathing this dust
defile different sized particles that

are respirable and it's causing all kinds
of problems as well as concrete dust

lead particles the.

The actual towers were probably
the single largest architectural

use of lead of any building ever made all
the gutters everything were led sheeting.

Led in wires.

Used to connect certain devices in
the building phone wire all that stuff.

So we found nine years pictures
sixteen electron images six.

Calcium carbonate straight fibers straight
glass fibers which is the insulation you

probably have in your
house there straight.

The pink stuff the paint
insulation glass fragments.

Gypsum from sheet rock mineral wall which
gives you these exotic shapes because it's

fun like cotton candy.

Lots of paper fibers as well as

heavy metal particle heavy metal
particles lead welding spheres.

I think we found nine things that if
you take them together if you find

all nine of these things
in the dust sample.

We have a reasonable confidence that
there from the World Trade Center dust.

There isn't a single thing because these
are very common things in your house

if you have somebody and you do some sheet
rocking you get is white dust all over

the place going to have a lot of gypsum
and calcium carbonate and maybe even some

glass fears from some of the stuff
they used to patch that material.

So it's everywhere.

Subic with this really
especially in the city.

So we can help the whole lot and
now we didn't make them very happy but

they did realize that there are two
hundred dollar samples idea wasn't going

to work and they went back to the old
standby let's just look for its best this.

And if we find a specif
will clean it up and

say that's related there was a lot of
especially as in the buildings as well.

So more typical things we
do pharmaceutical folks

when they manufacture a product they're
very sensitive to contamination

is one of our classics
we get these stoppers.

And we've you're all going to be the
detectives a little bit here in a minute.

We have the stoppers that have
these black particles on them and

you may you may be good enough.

Right now to see what that
black particle really is.

So when you see it up close.

It's even less likely to
be make anybody happy.

So all of a sudden there's a group of
people that buy the stoppers packages or

product with the stoppers and
send their finished product on.

There's also people who manufacture the
stopper so we're trying to find out who's

ultimately responsible for these insects
getting into the stoppers any ideas.

Yet you think it's to stop or

manufacture some some How about the guys
that are actually bottling the product.

OK About fifty fifty.

The rest of us and we don't care.

That's OK so
we have to look a little closer.

So we use a scanning electron
microscope course we lose color

because we have electrons now and
we start to see can you see the wings.

And see that back there.

Looks like the insects
are actually embedded in a rubber.

So it's highly unlikely.

But not impossible but
highly unlikely that the flies

are actually getting crushed
into the rubber stopper during

manufacture of the product during
the actual stop running of the vials.

It's more likely that as
a stopper manufacturers

mourning the shape of their stoppers with
their liquid stopper material silicone

rubber that these flies are getting in and
getting trapped in the rubber.

So we voted for the stop or
manufacture and it turned out

to be what it was you know here's a good
case of classification identification

this this particular facility was
in a different part of the world.

And so there was some idea well we've
got some pretty good replicas of these

insects perhaps we can tell what
they are and where they're from.

Again more time more money but if it
was important enough it could have been

the one who we did to have some pretty
good impressions of the insects.

But for our customer at this point
in time this was good enough.

Quick answer.

You know a few quick pictures and
they're happy.

It's not them.

They'll move on to deal with a stop or
manufacture.

Another situation we have a.

N.F.L. football player.

Who is testing positive for steroids and

he's not supposed to have
steroids in his system.

So that right there is a bad thing.

He claims he doesn't take of his handlers.

But he does take this protein powder
muscle protein powder all the time

his handlers are accused of perhaps
adding something to his protein powder.

So litigation happens
the attorneys get involved.

And now the manufacturer
of the protein powder

is being looked at as
a source of the steroids.

This means factor does not use steroids
in their product they don't manufacture

steroids or steroids within one
hundred miles of the facility.

So how do you prove that
something's not there.

In the manufacturing world they
have something called retains So

I mean your factual lot of a lot meaning
a group of product on Monday and

I retain a small sample of that lot.

There's actually about thirty
six ingredients in this stuff so

analyzing it for on one hand a nightmare.

You know trying to go back through and
reengineer it.

It's not going to happen.

I just spray dried private actual It's
pretty cool under the microscope.

So they have always retained.

So how many do we have to
look at how many is enough.

We looked at one hundred retains and
we killed.

We combed through with
a stereo binocular microscope.

If this is a typical field of view we
estimated the number of particles in that

field and
we came up with something like one hundred

million particles that we looked at and
actually combed through.

So we're trying to get some
kind of detection limits.

You know how do you prove a negative.

Have we looked at all
the product that's the only way.

You know we have in science we make
estimates we look at samples we estimate

a population based on what we see so
I mean my estimate the population is

is a highly unlikely that there's any
steroids in this particular product but

that wasn't good enough for the lawyers.

Very difficult to prove
something was not there.

But combing through this
sample we did find this stuff

which looks very different.

This is the product the protein powder and
this is the material we are finding and

some of the Had these little big Well
little white particles attached to

it which weren't really little this turned
out to be some kind of chinese herbal

medicine and this is the steroids.

So initially what happened.

They sample they got hold of this.

Athlete's muscle power
centered off to some

lab on the West Coast that's very good at
detecting steroids it was at the detection

limit it is huge amount of powder and
it's very small amount of steroids.

They couldn't detect it or

if they did it was right at that attention
one that not certain not certain.

So I was able to go through
microscopically and pick this stuff out.

Piece by piece put it into
a cap a plastic cap of.

Put for oil over it and

I think I collected when I say about
fifteen milligrams of material.

Send it to the lab and it tested positive
for the steroids era concerned with.

But there's no way to do that.

I mean there's no other way to do it.

You have to manually separate I thought
well maybe it fluoresce maybe I just

signed a U.V. light on.

Take it all.
Or maybe I could filter or

maybe I could see if it didn't work.

It was just back to this good
old fashioned hard work and

there's a higher main
advocation look at this stuff.

So you can actually take
a piece of this and

that I think that scales to millimeter So
these are pretty big.

Take a piece of that
rolled out get an F.D.R.

spectrum on it and it was perfect for
the steroids interest.

I mean steroids as a group.

I don't think you can
differentiate by F.D.R.

but I certainly could show that there was
a steroids present in it was confirmed

by the other laboratory in a West Coast.

He's a traditional method G.C.
mass spec to identify it.

That was fun.

There's a couple things we
can do would polarize lie.

This is a court particle.

This is in transmitted light
would one polarizer so

we still have a bright field of
view refractive index at this.

Rotation of the stage is very close to the
liquid it's in and we use this microscope.

Most of the cover most of the objectives
we use that are the actual business

part of the microscope that
expensive part of the microscope.

We have a refractive index liquid
that we put the particles in and

we use a cover slip.

And that refractive index
like that we pay for

it's expensive in we know the refractive
index of it at a certain temperature so

we know that the refractive index shown
by this particle in this orientation.

Because of the lack of contrast is
very very close to that of the liquid.

So in the time it takes me to put
the particle on the side look at it.

I have one of the refractive
index figured out.

And then when I cross the polarizers and
I see this by refrigerant I may loom.

My mind goes.

Maybe this is cords.

You know because that index is
close to one point five four and

I get these in a spiral for
engine colors and

the fracture kind of looks like glass
which with cords does it can quit.

Fractured type mineral So
mom a way to figure now what this stuff is

included that this is
kind of in the future.

Is probably the last
thing I'll talk about.

If we've got time I'll
show you a couple videos.

This is a situation we had these lamps
in a studio that films for television.

And there's lots of these lamps in our
people that get up in the rigging in

movies lamps around all the time
these lamps burn very very hot.

So the guys who go up and the guys and
gals they go up in a rigging rigging

were getting very concerned about this
dust that are some history to this

particular location they had been
in a fire and a re rebuilt it.

And so there's been a lot of construction
and so one point somebody said you

know what I'm not messing with this stuff
anymore because I don't know what that is.

So we're going to stop work and
so they did.

So now we got to find out what it is and

just by the way the first thing you
notice you know this is the bald part.

This is the lens par or
the projector part.

It looks like something's getting hot

in this stuff coming from the lamp except
after looking at a bunch of the rigging he

couldn't be sure it was all over the place
and they moved the lights around a lot but

that's what that's what my
first look is telling me.

And sometimes at first
look can be good and

other times you can lead you
totally in a wrong direction.

So if we take some of that dust.

That's on the lamp look at it under
the polarized light microscope.

I see two things immediately what
I thought was dust really isn't.

What it is we get these strings
eggroll these are all tiny crystals

This is poly Crystal in.

And it's forming these threads or ribbons.

Which tells me that this material has.

Been deposited on that portion
of the lamp in several events.

It's it's been heated up or
dissolved heated in this case as a vapor.

It's the posited in its form
these beautiful crystals they

just keep building on themselves.

So I've got some
information at this point.

I still don't know what it is.

Actually what it is was pretty easy.

So I put it in the S.C.M..

I get a picture of it.

I see the same kind of thing.

And I get an E.T.S.
it tells me it's carbon or knocks it in.

Useful because now I know
it's organic as opposed to

some type of mineral or
some type of metal.

Inside the lamp.

We had more crystals a really neat This is
an edge on view he got these nice little

crystals all over the place.

But it still doesn't tell me what it
is and I still own just been looking at

the lamp I took it all apart I still
couldn't tell worlds coming from.

So in an F.D.R. spectrum of the crystals.

In.

Actually this is a show it
bother you got the wrong one.

But that's what it is it's a acid.

So it's some type of polyester material.

Unfortunately just about everything they
use in that studio including the daylight

filters they use on the lenses were some
type of polyester material were it was P T

or whether it was some other polyester
type material so they're all very close.

So it's a OK but it's possible

the lamps are heating some of these
things up and they're volatile izing and

getting deposited at the cooler
parts in the in the ceiling.

We don't know it's a little bit
frustrating at that point especially after

going through a lamp in the field
figuring out eventually.

The people who are working on this with

me sent me a brand new lamp in
the lamp I'd been working on.

And you notice anything different.

They're both black.

Actually they both had marks on their
manufacture in two different locations but

that's OK textures a little bit different
but one writes kind of shiny new and.

This one been in service a while
it's dull so little light goes on.

It's it's got to be the pain sometimes
happen into that pain sure enough

I had sampled this and run a spectrum
on it and I got a polyester.

Which didn't help me although everything
I looked at was some type of polyester

just turned out.

But this was still very
uphill very plastic.

This was very brittle.

So which I would expect
after I got hot and.

Had been in use for a while.

So I had to do a little modification here.

I did take my most powerful
analytical tool I had.

And build myself my hot stage.

And try to figure out where
these crystals were coming from.

So I've got a very at.

We've got a tin indium slide coated slide.

He just put the out put the D.C.L.
put on it crossed it to

the top of it's got the coating so it's
conductive heated up resistivity heat it.

Having it start to see now we
actually left this at three hundred

degrees centigrade for twenty four hours.

There's three little
particles of paint here.

This is a glass tube or
cylinder with a cover slip on top and

the whole way you can see that we see the
crystal starting to form after a day and

believe me we tried this many many
times at different temperatures for

increasing the time in
temperature each time.

So when we finally got
crystals a little party.

I think where and ran down the hall
he says I got the crystals and

we actually have some condensation of
crystals here rechristen is Asian here and

we've got a boatload of them up here.

And there is another microscope that it
would in perfect for this application.

Room on my cross could be because
it will shoot through the glass and

the glass doesn't bother it.

So we could actually do it with
the crystals on the underside and

get some Ramond spectra of it.

We didn't do that we flipped it over
looked at them under the peel did an I.R.

and then compared to what we had.

And they were.

Identical to the deposit on the lamp
what I produced from the paint

in my tree fell like acid.

So my conclusion was that
as these things heated up.

It's the paint was breaking down into
recurse the lising on this rigging

which when you look at the amount
the size of these lamps and

the amount of dust that was produced.

That's a lot of material.

It was really a problem
there with that pain.

And that's all I have for this part.

We have ten more minutes maybe.

So you can do this and

stop this one actually Or
are we with this one.

This is the hot stage set up
because a lot of times it's fun.

And useful to watch
things rehearse the lies.

I think this is T.N.T..

The explosive.

So as a heated up.

I can watch to Crystal's Mel
here a million arrests and

things like polymorphs.

And if I put another material
in I can look at you.

Tactics this and if you have
the same material you put the two

tiny part of the same material
melt at what should happen.

They should mix.

They should form a free interface.

That's a good test to begin this is
this is time intensive stuff you with

a microscope your study and you don't you
don't get your results immediately you

have to study your material and then you
can watch your rechristened lies and

again you're looking for
polymorph which are different.

Crystal shapes.

Actually it's a good story about T.N.T.

The doctor McCrone worked
on McCrone research.

Since a two years ago where he found
that there was an unstable mob

polymorphic T.N.T. that they were loading
into the shells they shot off the ships

big giant shells T.N.T.

is a propellant there drop and shore
falling on our guys and so the bad guys.

He found it was an unstable
polymorph is being produced.

And he's talked about that with
the American Chemical Society many

times before he passed away.

And he wouldn't find his real quick and
this.

We talked a little bit
about refractive index.

You need.

To look at the two particles left and
right.

I'm focusing up he see the white line the
halo The Becky line the one on the left

moves into the particle the one in the
right moves out here to glass particles.

And that much time we know what.

Those two particles of
glass have different for

active in the Cease there
from two different sources.

If you will white powder and in the
question is a quarter glass quartz crystal

and we saw a nice picture showing
the Byron is a nice colors in seconds.

You can tell if it's crystal in
an crystalline very powerful technique.

Unfortunately takes about
two years to get good at and

probably five years to master so
it's not something you do overnight.

If you take a week or two long course
you learn enough to be dangerous but

you do get inspired you to like it or
you hate I guess it's like computers.

See if I have to put a crow
is in here somewhere.

And get biographer engines which
scene that we can watch it in action.

We're going to look at
our friend courts again.

One polarizer we cross them.

It's dark.

I apologize for

that you see the by refer engines
right now we know it's crystal and.

We rotate the stage.

It goes to extinction.

No more color what that means
is that's one of the refractive

in the seas that particle.

So we don't cross the polars So
I think we'll do then a minute.

See another

one the upper corner another particle and
now if I change my focus.

I see that the bank the line
moves into the particle.

So I know what that rotation at that
extinction point of that particle

the refractive index of the particle
is greater than the liquid it's in so

if I know what the liquid is.

I've determined not exactly what
the refractive index is but

I know about what it is we know we know
it's greater than one point five four.

So we can start a classification
scheme based on that.

And I won't I won't kid
you it's a lot of work.

But once you use to it.

It's very very fast and
if used the right mouse.

And there's one more and I'll quit and
I'll answer any questions you may have.

When I'm looking for is plea a Crow ism.

Pat please crows I'm

the wrong color.

I don't remember this one
Anybody familiar with that term.

Please Crowism a lot of dyes or please.

Polarized light again one polar
when you rotate it changes color.

This is like a geologist dream because

all a lot of minerals do this and
they can tell.

Rapidly.

If a mineral is a.

Type of mineral depending on how it reacts
to one cross polarized beam of light by

how it changes color a lot of dyes do this
you see cotton fibers are dyed blue or

purple and the dye will actually be
plea across it may shift from blue to

yellow as you turn it's not
the cotton it's actually the dye

that's another optical
property we look at.

Hopefully that made some sense or that I
think I'm going to quit and see if there's

any questions or anything about what
you seen or anything about what I do.

We have my cross to piss in here.

Then we actually use
microscopes electron or light.

OK so I got for light my cross will get
dark feel Brightfield fluorescents phase.

I see.

Conflict will.

Yes.

Can't forget that.

It's really up in your
mind was I don't want to

implement the structure of the woods
are different in paper cotton rather

cotton looks very different paper can be
mechanically process where they just rip.

The wood apart and they'll be little
pieces still stuck together of the actual

cells that make up the wood or they'll be
chemically process where the fibers are.

Basically all it means
dissolve it freeze the fibers.

So the actual structure of the cellular.

The cells that make up a paper fiber
a wood fire very different in kind.

In or are things you can see like
hardwoods are different in softwoods

there's a whole nother group of science

paper Institute used to be around here
somewhere or they were from Wisconsin.

Walter rant and
then a good friend of mine.

He's one of the leading experts on wood.

Species in paper fibers or he looks any
tells what type of wood they're from so

they have very unique microscopic.

Structures that help identify
that where the wood came from or

the tree it came from or if it's
recycled or how much of it's recycled.

You know somebody to run it.

No that's a good question.

I would say I price a the I R F T A R.

Because in I've got my small particles and
if I if I don't really have enough.

Plastics For instance if I had a Palm
marriage material or a paint can I can

maybe look at some of the fillers in the
paint with this either mineral fillers.

But as far as a resin I'd want to
go to F.D.R. to help determine

what the resonance for the type of
polymer and again you can only go sorry.

So far with that you could tell now on six
from Nylon six six from six nine may be.

But you're pushing it.

You have to go to other techniques.

Yep we

have Ming do it can
mean looks at a person.

Now we have hoods would help
of filters the negative flow.

So we have a bench top with
a stereo microscope in it so

we open material in there.

For our first look at it.

So theoretically the particles
won't come out into our Airstream

they'll get captured by the hepa filter.

And a lot of times we know.

And if we don't know.

Then we have to make a decision whether
we want it in the lab is we're really not

set up for biologicals or

anthrax type things or anything that will
require a high level of containment.

We're careful.

OK thanks very much.

Thank you.

Thanks for having.