[MUSIC PLAYING] MARLEE GIVENS: You're one of us now. You've gotten a Dewey Decimal System or Card Catalog joke when you're in a social situation. JESSICA GLOMB: I haven't gotten anything like that yet-- [CHUCKLES] --actually CHARLIE BENNETT: So they're giving off retail vibes and people aren't getting that joke coming. JESSICA GLOMB: Yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: You are listening to WREK Atlanta. And this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the virtual studio yet again with Marlee Givens and Fred Rascoe. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk, whichever you are here for, we hope you dig it. MARLEE GIVENS: Today's show is called recruiting from retail. And I wanted to talk about this for a while ever since I saw some folks give a presentation on this topic last year. CHARLIE BENNETT: So consider the strengths and skills that come from working in service or retail jobs. Those skills seem like they'd be useful in an academic library setting. People who have handled busy restaurants, crowded stores, and unpredictable customers might be exactly what we need in the new library. I used to work the circulation desk alone at night. And some nights were like tending bar in a joint that was out of everything except whiskey, tonic, and cherries. That sounds like a fun reference desk. OK, so which resources in the library are represented by the cherries? Printer paper. MARLEE GIVENS: Charlie and I spoke to Tina Erickson, Jessica GLOMB and Max Maller from the University of Chicago library. Tina Jessica and Max all brought a wealth of transferable skills from the retail industry to their current positions in acquisition services where they found a culture that better matches their values, interests, and passions. CHARLIE BENNETT: Our songs today are about being impatient, work life balance, and appreciating the true value of people in libraries. Sustaining library acquisition services going forward is going to require a variety of skills, experiences, and perspectives to all be brought together. So let's start with a song about pulling ourselves together from past unsustainable behavior to effectively meet what the future may hold. This is "Wasn't Tomorrow Wonderful" by The Waitresses, from Akron, Ohio! Right here on Lost in the Stacks. [MUSIC - THE WAITRESSES, "WASN'T TOMORROW WONDERFUL?"] (SINGING) Would yesterday be better? I think you'll do just fine. CHARLIE BENNETT: This is Lost in the Stacks and we are speaking with Tina Erickson, Jessica Glomb, and Max Miller from the University of Chicago Library. To start with, we explored their journey from retail work to library acquisitions. MARLEE GIVENS: So I'll start with Jessica since she's top right on my screen. What were you doing before you came to the wonderful world of libraries? JESSICA GLOMB: I was working as an assistant manager in a local chain of food and supplement stores in the Chicago area. And really trying to find out what type of career path would really fit with my values. So along the way, I decided that I wanted to work at a large institution that was making a huge impact in the world. And I came upon the University of Chicago. I personally thought the atmosphere was something that aligns a lot with my own values and what I was looking for in a career. So I went to the website, found a job that was open in the library. And the rest is history. CHARLIE BENNETT: Do you feel like you knew what you were getting into now that you've done it? JESSICA GLOMB: First I didn't know what I was getting into. [CHUCKLES] But who really does And knows exactly what they're getting into? I had my impressions of things, but I would say that as far as the unexpected, what was expected was that is expected for folks to work hard to be really intellectually driven to have the sense of service to the community. But what I think was a pleasantly unexpected was just the amazing community that I found. MARLEE GIVENS: And I see Tina kind of nodding along. So Tina, did you have a similar entry or what was your story? TINA ERICKSON: The community aspect of it was something that I found pleasantly surprised by. My experience, getting here was a little bit different though. Originally actually, came to Chicago to be a student at the University of Chicago. So I had been a student here for five years and then I left and joined the food and beverage industry afterwards. And so I was involved in management as well when I moved into that industry. One of the things that I really loved about it that I found actually kind of lacking in my sector in academia was a very human aspect of the work that we did and something that I thought was so fun like really fun working in food service is getting to work with people. Like when you are in the middle of like a breakfast rush-- [CHUCKLES] --you have very little space behind your counter. You get very cozy and very comfortable with people actually, being part of a team that gets along really well together, and kind of being able to cultivate that was something that I really loved. And moving out of that, for me, was largely for personal reasons. I got married. I had a kid very quickly. And so I realized that I wanted something that was going to give me a little bit better work life balance. And so opening a cafe at 4:30 in the morning is not really conducive to raising a newborn. [CHUCKLES] So I thought about where I was happiest, when I'm happiest in my working life and the desire to move to the library has always been something I wanted to pursue. And I didn't know if I was really able to do that because I didn't go to library school. When I was looking for alternative career paths and I saw that position opened up here at the library, I really jumped on it. And just said, if someone there is willing to take a chance on someone coming out of retail, then that's the right move for me. And so that's kind of how I wound up back at the University. CHARLIE BENNETT: So Tina your example of the very human side of work that you enjoy it sounds like the opposite of the standard idea of the introverted librarian. TINA ERICKSON: It does. [CHUCKLES] So in some ways it is. We were all working acquisitions and so we don't have a lot of face to face time with our users. But I do think that coming out of retail, coming out of the service, I think there's a very real understanding that the work that we do behind the scenes does ultimately directly tie-in with our user experience. For me, I remember when I was applying, I think even in my interview talking about how in retail like I worked with tea and coffee. And those for me are very precious commodities. [CHUCKLES] And books are also very [INAUDIBLE] that at the end of the day, we also have users and customers essentially that we serve. And so being able to really contribute to user experience in the library, I found to be something that was very easily translatable from a completely different industry. At the end of the day, we want to have a healthy and robust collection. But you know we exist to serve our users. And our users are really anyone who steps through the door whether they be staff or whether they be students, faculty, or even members of the public. So that was something that I just really wanted to keep chasing and whatever job I chose. Luckily, the library's been actually very good for that. MARLEE GIVENS: Max, what do you remember from seeing that first job opening and deciding to go for it? MAX MALLER: Well, I remember thinking right after that, I bet I would get to sit down more often at this job than I do at the bookstore, which is where I used to work. I loved working at the bookstore and I was very happy there for a long time. And really I saw moving to the library as a natural progression from what I'd been doing for several years. And it was even ironically on the same street the bookstore I used to work at a secondhand bookstore in the University of Chicago neighborhood. You can almost see the library from the front entrance of the bookstore. And I was also like Tina, student at the University of Chicago. And I continue using my precious alumni access at the library during my stint at the bookstore. And I like to think that I arrived on my first day in the acquisitions department a kind of well-rounded library super user who had been given through a wonderful dispensation of fate the keys to the kingdom to start to contribute to this amazing universe of knowledge and exchange of ideas that the library represents for the student body and faculty. CHARLIE BENNETT: So I don't think we can let you get away without asking, did you read more when you were working at a bookstore now that you're working at a library? MAX MALLER: That's a great question. I read more contemporary things at the bookstore. And what I read had more to do with stuff I was seeing every day where we would get a big fiction collection in or somebody would have a lot of Civil War material. And you'd grab something off the top of the pile that looked interesting. So I guess contemporary isn't really right. What I read had more to do with stuff that crossed my path sort of randomly. So I was more of an eclectic reader at the bookstore. At the library, I feel right on the cutting edge of all of these different fields where we're ordering things that are currently in discussion in every field imaginable. We haven't been physically in the building full time for almost 18 months now, but there's a big portable shelf that moves in and out of our unit with all the new arrivals stickered and ready to go out to the stacks. And I go over there and pick out some new monographs and things. So I'll be reading more scholarly material on a regular basis as a library employee than I did at the bookstore where what I gravitated to was more random, had more to do with what happened to be on top of the pile and on any given day. CHARLIE BENNETT: We'll be back with more about recruiting from retail after a music set. File this set under HD4904.25.A74. [MUSIC - THE KINKS, "SITTING ON MY SOFA"] MARLEE GIVENS: You just heard "Sitting On My Sofa" by the Kinks. And we started our set with 5 o'clock world by the Vogues, songs about keeping work and life in the proper balance. This is Lost in the Stacks. And we're back with Tina Erickson, Jessica Glomb, and Max Miller from the University of Chicago library acquisition services department. Tina is currently the receiving and rapid cataloging supervisor. And Jessica and Max work on the ordering side. Jessica is supervisor of library orders and Max is acquisitions orders assistant. We asked each of them to tell us more about what was strange or challenging about working in libraries and how they leverage their retail experience for success. Now that you've been in the library for a while, can you remember being new? And what was like something weird that you maybe had to get used to? And I'll start with Tina who's smiling at that. TINA ERICKSON: I think the weirdest thing to get used to for me was I think just the cultural shift. There there's a lot of technical skills here that are required that you obviously don't get coming from retail, but most of those skills can be taught. The culture here is very unique. I knew a bit about it because I was a student here, but coming in as a staff member is obviously still quite a different shift. And I think that there being-- there's a pretty diverse group of people who work here. Some people have been here for upwards of 50 years. There are some people who have never had any other kind of job experience. They've been here since they graduated from school. And there is definitely a very strong sense of like culture. Yeah, there's definitely a learning curve there into a new place with a very, very specific set of people with a very specific set of skills. And to try to find your place in that and to kind of navigate those relationships, that have really been here for decades in some cases. I think that was like for me the biggest kind of learning curve. CHARLIE BENNETT: You said something about what can be taught, what do you think can't be taught about retail work or library work or both? TINA ERICKSON: I think that it's funny because when we go hiring for people and we have job postings that are now coming up and things that I specifically look for people are these things that really can't be taught because I know that we can do a lot for training. And some of those things that I think that people really have in spades in retail as well as in libraries, but in retail I've seen it is a very strong sense of resiliency and flexibility. In retail, you never know what's going to happen when somebody walks through the door. And it can be a very flexible, very volatile sometimes-- [CHUCKLES] --environment. And the worry is much less so. However, being able to have somebody already kind of have a sense of that and be able to pivot, be able to kind of bounce when something comes up. I don't know that that's something that's teachable. I think it's something that people are able to really cultivate on their own and come in with or they don't. And I see it translates well with things like having a sense of urgency if we have a patron request or if we have a special collections item or something that comes in that really needs to be bumped to the top of the queue and being able to turn around and reprioritize and kind of think on the spot is something that I can't teach. Maybe someone else can, but that's not what I'm here for. But I love people who are able to do that. And those are the types of people that I want to work with. MARLEE GIVENS: Jessica, as someone who came for the culture and stayed for the job, has it met your expectations or has there been anything challenging in making that transition to the library? JESSICA GLOMB: Well, I think that the one thing that I found most challenging was from going to the position that had aspects of it in corporate supply chain management really and the inventory management. The goal is to, of course, provide an excellent customer experience, but also to make profit to an industry that was not for profit in which material circulated. And once it leaves the shelf it comes back instead of leaving forever. And that was actually something that really I think profoundly struck me maybe a year or two in the job that when we're purchasing material, when we're acquiring material for the library because I'm purchasing, it is not meant to just leave the shelf and never return. This is about building a collection and supporting an intellectual community for years, decades to come. And knowing that you're a part of that I think is something that it helps to put things in perspective and to focus a bit more that what you're doing is something. It's OK to take your time with things. And I understand what Tina's saying about a sense of urgency with certain things, but at the same time too, one of the things that I found was important to adjust to in the culture of the library is being able to take your time and dig into an issue because you do have time to do it. And it's important that you have time to do it. You're not on the floor having to do 10 things with the power of two people. And it's got to be done perfectly. You've got the time to do it. And I really value that. At least, this is my experience here. Compared to my experience, this is my own experience. Others might have different experiences at different institutions. MARLEE GIVENS: Did anyone have any issues with jargon or any like technical-- what was the kind of learning how our library systems work? How was your transition with this nuts and bolts of the job? JESSICA GLOMB: I actually found the jargon aspect of it to be very interesting something to continue learning about. It really helps to make the job dynamic and to keep learning with the different terms that are used. There's always more to learn about something like an authority record, a bibliographic record, mark then frame. The new developments are coming up. And this is something that we're encouraged even those of us who don't have a library degree in our institutions to look into. When you're working for a retail corporation, those things come down from corporate. You're expected to carry out what they say based on the new developments, but understanding them is not necessarily an expectation. So this was empowering. At any rate, I found that there were some things that could transfer over really easily jargon wise like your catalog to your inventory, which a lot of businesses have an inventory. That's kind of like a catalog. So for that, there's database management that's involved in retail certainly. Your inventory has a huge database. And you do have records for products. You have a history for products. Those kinds of things and movements, but you know that kind of translates over to circulation information. So some things do, like I noticed translated really well. Even just reading the job application, I could say like OK, I can see where some of these things are almost real shoe. And so that was really helpful. I didn't have personally a very difficult time with that. I thought it went really, really well. CHARLIE BENNETT: You're listening to lost in the stacks and we'll be back with more from Tina Erickson, Jessica GLOMB, and Max Muller on the left side of the hour. ASHLEY MAYNOR: Hi, I'm Ashley Maynor. And I'm a librarian by day and filmmaker by night. And you're listening to Lost in the Stack, WREK, Atlanta. CHARLIE BENNETT: Today's show is called recruiting from retail. And we're talking to three folks from the University of Chicago library which made a deliberate decision to update some of their staff job descriptions several years ago. This enabled them to recruit talented individuals who lacked library experience, but whose transferable skills positioned them for 21st century library work. And that is the century we're in. Our guest, Tina Erickson, along with her colleague Philip Stephanie and their supervisor Susan Martin wrote about their staff recruitment redesign in the Library Leadership and Management Journal this past year. Part of the inspiration for their hiring redesign was a 2018 article in the Harvard Business Review entitled how to hire. The article writer wrote, finding the right people is also not a matter of quote culture fit unquote. What most people really mean when they say someone is a good fit culturally is that he or she is someone they'd like to have a beer with. But people with all sorts of personalities can be great at the job you need done. This misguided hiring strategy can also contribute to a company's lack of diversity since very often the people we enjoy hanging out with have backgrounds much like our own. Making great hires is about recognizing great matches and often they're not what you would expect. Now they were also likewise inspired by chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov who said many people think that if something worked yesterday and is still working today it will work tomorrow. That's wrong. I believe Garry Kasparov. I think of how when I used to hang out with people I liked to drink with there were tomorrows when none of us could work even when we worked yesterday and today. Filed this set under BJ1533.P3F53. [MUSIC - THE ROLLING STONES, "TIME IS ON MY SIDE"] (SINGING) Time is on my side. CHARLIE BENNETT: You just heard "Dawns On Me" by Wilko from Chicago. Before that, "Time Is On My Side" by the Rolling Stones, RIP Charlie Watts. Those were songs about taking time and being rewarded with knowledge and insight. It's ironic, time was always on Charlie Watts's side. MARLEE GIVENS: In this case, it was three-quarter time. Welcome back to lost in the stacks. Today we're speaking with Tina Erickson, Jessica GLOMB and Max Maller from the University of Chicago library. As we rounded out our conversation, we were amused to learn that retail work requires certain social skills that our guests have not had much opportunity to use in the library. CHARLIE BENNETT: Is the socializing is that a survival skill when you're in retail that's less necessary in the library? [CHUCKLES] TINA ERICKSON: Oh, probably. I would imagine that it probably is. When you're in retail and especially in the food service industry, you are really at the mercy of your customers. [CHUCKLES] And whatever happens that day, you could have somebody call off and then you're understaffed. And then you have to completely rearrange, well, how is this team going to function and where am I going to put this person or maybe your order doesn't come on time or they forget to send you coffee. [CHUCKLES] And you're on a college campus and all of a sudden everyone wants coffee. So what do you do? And so I feel like there's always some fire that needs to be put out. When you are working in retail, you have got to learn to work together and you've got to do it every single day on every single shift. And so it really does require that kind of level of trust between the people that you work with and as well as just physical proximity. And the library, luckily, is not like that. We have our own types of fires that need to be [INAUDIBLE] sometimes. But it isn't as claustrophobic. That is actually one of the more valuable aspects of working in retail. When there's a big rush and you've got your team and everybody's working together is actually a very good feeling. It's not something that you get always and in the library, but having that space and that room to breathe is also very gratifying. [CHUCKLES] And it's something that you don't get in retail that I think is very attractive to people that are maybe looking to switch industries. And I think that it's possibly even more so now. I know we haven't really talked about the big elephant in the room with COVID. And you look at people who are working in retail and there are frontline workers, they're essential workers. And when we say that we're all in this together, they're really all in it together. And there is definitely a huge difference between that kind of sense of camaraderie between workers in retail and here in the library because we can do a lot of our work independently. But I think that kind of trust that needs to be built between staff members and between co-workers still exists. But it does definitely manifest differently. CHARLIE BENNETT: Did any of you get really dramatic advice one way or another from your retail side colleagues about going or not going into libraries? TINA ERICKSON: I did because my former co-workers in retail knew that I had come out of the same University that I was moving back to. They were really like, well, are you actually going to be happy going back to the University? And I said well, my most positive experience when I was a student here was actually at the library. I think that we have a really-- for our users, I would like to hope that they also come away from this place whether they ever return or not with a very positive experience as users of the library and I certainly did. And so that was something that I really didn't have any doubts about at all. But there was a little bit of skepticism there. I was like, well, you just left there and I know you're going to go back. So why is this a different experience was before. But I do think meeting Jessica actually sat in on my interview with our former head of acquisitions. And the way in which we were able to communicate with each other and that there is this kind of shared sense of understanding as I was coming out of potentially walking into was really there. And so that was definitely a comfort. But Yeah, there were some people that were a little confused by that. MAX MALLER: I didn't encounter any real warnings about working in the library. It's interesting what Tina said about having people look at it as the same, but different from an academic kind of trajectory. But more often than not in my experience, I would hear from people whether they're PhD students or people who spent time in school and spent time in retail that they really were excited for me. And that there's this kind of romance about working in a library that appeals to a lot of people. And I can't tell you, I haven't heard it very many Dewey Decimal Jokes unfortunately. I wish I knew some good ones. But I have heard many times people tell me, Oh, you're so lucky my dream job is to work in the library. And people say that all the time. And I think it's because you get to have so much fascinating stuff passed through your hands and it's your job. I don't know that every minute of the library worker experiences the romance that people make it out to be all the time. But it certainly is a great lifestyle. And it's one way it also if you're a certain kind of person who is interested in academic life, but also wants to hold down a different kind of job and sort of keep one foot in, one foot out of that world. There's really no better way to do it. And everybody I know who's spent any time in academia has said to me, well, being in the library is the best part of it and you get to do that all the time, lucky you. JESSICA GLOMB: Well, my backgrounds is different than Tina and Max's. I didn't come from an academic background. I had been out of any academic environment for over five years before making the transition there. I never left a love of knowledge of books of current events of wanting to know the deeper meaning behind what was going on in the world. And so I think that that's what eventually led me back. Things started to get to a point where I said, I'd like to devote my life to knowledge and information and getting it to people. I felt like it was something meaningful and align with my values. And I actually-- there wasn't a big announcement or folks said my job that I left who knew what I was looking for or not looking for. But they understood that it was the type of environment that I needed to be in and thrive in. And I think just there was a lot of support for moving on. And I think that overall it was a positive transition. People in the community no matter where their walk of life is really appreciate libraries and what they bring. And you know you can go anywhere. And if you tell somebody that you're working in a library or from a library or even a University, there's a sense of real gratitude I think from the general public for what is provided. MARLEE GIVENS: Our guests today are Tina Erickson, Jessica GLOMB, and Max Maller from the University of Chicago Library. Tina is co-author of the article Redesigning Staff Recruitment for the 21st Century, a case study from the University of Chicago Library, published in library leadership and management in 2020. Tina, Jessica, and Max all presented at the 2020 Allex Leader Loma Exchange virtual conference in a session entitled Recruiting For Retail. CHARLIE BENNETT: Marlee, would you please say the name of that conference again. I just like hearing it. MARLEE GIVENS: Allex Leader Loma Exchange. CHARLIE BENNETT: Trips off the tongue, doesn't it? [CHUCKLES] File this set under HF5381.D45. [MUSIC - BELLE & SEBASTIAN, "WRAPPED UP IN BOOKS"] (SINGING) Let me try to stop by you to see what your life can truly be. CHARLIE BENNETT: You just heard "Shining Star" by Earth, Wind, and Fire. Yeah, you did. And before that, "Wrapped Up In Books" by Belle and Sebastian. Those were songs about appreciating the value of people and information. Our show today is called Recruiting From Retail. And as we finish up, I have a question for you two. What did you do before you got your first library job? And what's the skill you learned in that job that you continue to use in your library work today? And I will not accept I don't know as an answer. FRED RASCOE: One job that I had as a high schooler was a cashier at a sort of a Walmart type place called PharMor. And on Sundays, for whatever reason, PharMor was overrun with the public. It was the day to go to PharMor. And so as a cashier, I was swamped and there would be people that came in and would try to do things like change a bill. And as I'm in the process of changing it, they would try to change it again. And in the process, they would try to acquire more money than they started out with. That happened more than once. And this is in the middle of people like shouting, looking for things that are on sale saying that I'm not going fast enough. There are all kinds of time problems. I learned not to panic. No matter what was going on, I was not going to die if I just slowed things down and kept control of myself and the situation. So that's what I learned then that I still think about now. MARLEE GIVENS: Well, I don't have retail experience but I do have restaurant experience. And I learned to juggle many things happening at the same time. And I still use that skill today. CHARLIE BENNETT: My last job before I worked at the library was at a bookstore. So of course, I learned nothing there that I use now. Roll the credits. Lost in the stacks is a collaboration between WREK, Atlanta and the Georgia Tech library written and produced by Amit Toshie, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, Marlee Givens, and Wendy Hagenmaier . MARLEE GIVENS: Today Show with edited and assembled with the assistance of a pot of coffee by Fred. CHARLIE BENNETT: Just one pot? Legal counsel, and a hook upon which to hang the keys to the kingdom were provided by the first intellectual property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. MARLEE GIVENS: Special thanks to Tina, Jessica, and Max for being on the show. And thanks as always to each and every one of you for listening. CHARLIE BENNETT: Find us online at lostinthestacks.org, and you can subscribe to our podcast pretty much anywhere you get your audio fix. Next week's show is well, it's going to be an unpleasant surprise. I may just bust out crying. But it's going to be ugly all over Charlie. Time for our last song today. FRED RASCOE: Any library acquisitions department and probably every other library department is undergoing stress due to multiple factors leading to burnout turnover. So here's hoping for arriving at a future that is more diverse and sustainable. This is "I'll Take You There" by the Staple Singers, from Chicago! Have a great weekend, everybody. [MUSIC - STAPLE SINGERS, "I'LL TAKE YOU THERE"] (SINGING) Oh, I know I'm late.