FRED RASCOE: I do believe that at this point, we in this room, are all as one as we ever have been, the most cohesive unit together. And in that spirit, I think it's time that I can introduce the most controversial topic that I will this evening, which is of course, the band Nickelback. Now, we're all friends. We're in a safe and brave space. So in that spirit, please clap your hands if you do enjoy the music of the band Nickelback [APPLAUSE] OK, OK. Thank you. It seems like we may have a few members of Nickelback here tonight. Thank you very much. Welcome, welcome. We're having fun. Now similarly, please clap your hands if you do not enjoy the music of the band Nickelback [APPLAUSE] OK, now for everyone just clapped that they don't like Nickelback, please clap again if you could sing one Nickelback song. [APPLAUSE] Not quite as many, a little more tentative and I do want you to double check that it's not a Creed song and it probably is. [MUSIC PLAYING] CHARLIE BENNETT: You are listening to WREK Atlanta and this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the virtual studio with everybody, Fred Rascoe, Wendy Hagenmaier, and Marlee Givens. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you are here for, we hope you dig it. MARLEE GIVENS: Our show today is called New Librarian, New Challenge. It goes with our previous shows, New Metadata, New Librarian and New Library, New Librarian, each featuring a newly hired librarian at the Georgia Tech Library. CHARLIE BENNETT: Hey is the word "new" starting to lose its meaning in this recording for anybody else? FRED RASCOE: New, new, new, new. Well, I hope it's not losing its meaning because it's in the script 13 more times after this. I counted. Our guest today is the new Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and outreach at the Georgia Tech Library, Dr. Aisha Johnson. WENDY HAGENMAIER: We talked to her about why she took the job here, what it entails, and a bit about the changes she hopes to bring to the library during her time here. FRED RASCOE: And our songs today are about change, challenges, workloads, and getting out of the house. And a confession, I thought that this episode was going to be called Welcome to the Admin Party. CHARLIE BENNETT: You didn't get any of the notifications in the Slack channel thread? FRED RASCOE: I never get anything, but it's still a party as far as I'm concerned. And so let's start with a song about getting to a party where things may be a little stranger than you expected, kind of like getting to a new job. This is Come to the Party by Dennis Olivieri right here on Lost in the Stacks. [MUSIC PLAYING] That was Come to the Party by Dennis Olivieri and this is Lost in the Stacks. Our interview today is with Doctor Aisha Johnson, the new Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Outreach at the Georgia Tech Library. We began by asking her, how did you end up in this job? AISHA JOHNSON: I have been in the house for two years, about two years during pandemic. I was in North Carolina Central University's first contracted tenure track remote professor. And it was a pilot and it happened right before the pandemic. So it was actually really good timing. Going through a pandemic alone but also still an administrator and being in your house, we've all had that pandemic blues. And I'm like, OK, I think it's about time for us to get out of the house. I completed this really big project that I wanted to do overhauling an entire concentration, archives and records management concentration. And after that, I'm like, OK, it's time to get out of the house and it's probably time for the next challenge because I was only going to come out of the house for a challenge. Because being in your home is so comfortable, right? Even though you know that it's not the best thing long term because we're humans and we need the people interaction, right? And there was a lot of people interaction. I had a lot of meetings and things of that nature. But there's something about the physical interaction that we still, even the most introverted of us, need. But I'm like, it has to be the absolute right opportunity. I know I want to be someone's dean one day so I'm like, OK, let me look and see what's happening. And I saw the position and I ignored it. And then it got sent to me three times by different people and they're like, I don't know if you are ready for the next challenge but I think this is really good. And I went on a trip to Seattle because I like to go to Seattle. Usually in May every year, I go hiking. There's beautiful springs. It's just a really good time to clear your mind to make major decisions. And I was talking to a girlfriend of mine and she's, like you need to do this. And I'm like, OK. All right. Let's do it. I guess we're getting out of the house. That's really the scary part. It's accepting one, that I'm actually changing my environment that I'm now used to, had not realized it's been two years already. So I applied. I put my best foot forward and the presentation, I was like, I don't know how they're going to take me because I can be a lot. But when we were doing the presentation-- and I'm a very blunt person and my jokes are kind of weird and you guys laughed. I'm like, these are my nerds. These are my people. So this would be a really good fit. And I just knew from the audience and the questions, the engagement, I'm like, OK, this would challenge me but it'll also give them an opportunity to have a different kind of leader. CHARLIE BENNETT: Why did you ignore it the first time you saw it? AISHA JOHNSON: Because I was like, it's Georgia Tech really ready? We talk about diversity a lot we talk about-- and I had this conversation with the Dean. We talk about diversity a lot. We talk about inclusion but I and many other people of color had not seen Georgia Tech as a librarian or an archivist as big as Atlanta is and there's much of a cultural heritage place that it is, I had not seen Georgia Tech as a place where it's just like, oh yeah, I can go there and have an impact or make a difference. Am I welcome there? Because it's such an internal institution. And change, I'm like, well, maybe I can be a catalyst for the change. Maybe I can open the door but for other people of color, for other BIPOC community. Maybe I can be the person to say, hey, no, we're really about what we're talking about. And kind of just open that door because as I spoke with administration, oftentimes people of color but specifically Black people will not go when they don't already see support in place. So it's hard for Georgia Tech to even attract people, archivists, librarians, one, two, and three if there's nobody in administration that they feel could relate to them. So as much as I know because I've taken on positions like this before where I've been the first African-American administrator in that particular position or if the first African-American program director or something like that, it's a challenge because there's so many different layers to the challenge and not just the work itself. And I was like, I know it's going to challenge me. I know it's going to help me grow as a person as a and professional but I was comfortable in my house. I was comfortable in my house. So I'm like, no. Because literally I said to myself, OK I'm going to try to-- I'm ready for the next level of my career. And then like randomly, the next day, I saw the job posting. I'm like, no that's not the sign. That's not it. But you know, I like to think that when things come to you multiple times from different people, like you need to do it. You really need to do it and I'm glad. CHARLIE BENNETT: Now that you're here, are we as white bread as we appear to be from the outside? AISHA JOHNSON: Yes. CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah. AISHA JOHNSON: Yes. CHARLIE BENNETT: It's such a bummer. It's such a bummer to realize that. AISHA JOHNSON: Yes and no because it's not the type where it's not welcoming. It's not the type where it's not, no we don't want change, we're just saying it. So when I got in and I learned about various initiatives and the conversations I had with the administration before I actually even physically got in the door is the reason I accepted it. And it wasn't just because I really, really wanted to make sure-- you know, my platform is about equity, diversity, and inclusion. My platform is about advocacy and outreach for the profession and everyone else. I tell my students, if you're not in this profession to service everyone, you're in the wrong profession. So I wanted to be absolutely sure that it wasn't just lip service. So I had a lot of conversation with the administration prior to actually physically coming to the job. And that gave me comfort and I had a lot of conversations with the archivist and the community, the librarians and the community and I'm like, OK. Somebody has to do it. And that's the reality of it. Somebody has to lead change in other people follow it. But the fact that the institution is really not just putting money towards a problem, but they're actually making initiatives towards solving the problem for me, makes a significant difference. And the people here are my kind of just all out, we're glad you're here, we want to work with you. And I like that. I like that team, that teamwork. FRED RASCOE: So you came from a role that was a professor role in a library information school. And obviously here you're in an academic library administrator role. So what about this particular job, like the challenges, the responsibilities that was required in this particular job got you to assess it and say, OK, well, I see the diversity challenges in that environment but this is where I can still apply and I still want to be there. AISHA JOHNSON: There isn't a position that I have held that hasn't had diversity challenges, even at historically Black college and university. So for example North Carolina Central is the only HBCU with the SLIS program in the country. It's not a predominantly Black program. So that's a different type of diversity issue but that's also a bigger diversity issue within our profession. Our numbers don't match our populations, which is something that, of course, we as a profession have been working towards for a very long time but it really comes down to individuals. It really comes down to institutions. It really comes down to how invested in the community are you, your faculty, your staff, your students, but also the external community. Like Tech is literally in the middle of Midtown and then there's Atlanta itself. So there's always diversity issues. But for me in this position, I see what the Dean is trying to do but I also see her being supported by the institution. So that helps me in the position and saying, OK, so we're going to-- number one priority, hiring. We need to hire more people. And diversity is not just race. It's also experience and skill set. It's also perspective. It's also working at different types of libraries and not just saying only people who worked in academia can work in academia. So it's looking at the whole thing, when I say diversity and not just faces. FRED RASCOE: We'll be back with more from Dr. Aisha Johnson after a music set. CHARLIE BENNETT: File this set under RA667.N8A5. [MUSIC PLAYING] MARLEE GIVENS: You just heard Tout va Bien by Pizzicato Five. Before that Hello Walls by Willie Nelson, songs about feeling trapped inside the house and then seeing an opportunity to get out and do something cool. This is Lost in the Stacks and we are speaking with Dr. Aisha Johnson, the new Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Outreach at the Georgia Tech Library. CHARLIE BENNETT: What does your day-to-day? What are your responsibilities? What do you do here at the library? AISHA JOHNSON: I can't even say I put out fires. So that's good. That's good because usually someone asks me that question and I'm like, I put out fires. That's what I do. But I don't put out fires here. I stop them from starting. However, I would say probably for the past couple weeks, maybe since the third week I've been here, I would say it's been a split of 60-40 and sometimes 70-30 University admin responsibilities and library admin responsibilities. And that, for me, was shocking. It was different because I've just had to deal with admin responsibilities in particular departments, the School of Library and Information Science, the National Archives, archives department itself within the Carter Library I've had various special collections or archives. So I was really the admin for those individual units. But it's nice. It's nice. It's very consuming. Don't get me wrong. And I was surprised that all of the University committees and obligations. So that's a challenge in itself for me, balancing because I'm still here for the library but at the same time, me being on those committees, me being in those meetings gives me the platform to be the advocator for the library and its professionals. It gives me the opportunity to say, hey, you know the library has faculty. Hey, we have scholars. Hey, we do publications. Hey, we're doing all this really great creation of services and use of technology and making sure our students and faculty have it. And there's respect there that's needed for those services and what it is that we're doing. So as much as it is sometimes a 70-30 split where like last week it was the majority of my meetings were all University meetings outside of the library. It gives us a platform to be seen, heard, and valued. And I think that's extremely important for any human, but especially for non-teaching faculty. WENDY HAGENMAIER: I'm curious if you see, Aisha, that administrative work, that University meeting work as also a pathway to work on diversity, equity, and inclusion. AISHA JOHNSON: Absolutely. Just naturally in academia-- and it's not just specifically tech-- but just naturally in academia or any research one institution, you won't often see a lot of people of color administrators. And the more you see, the more normal it becomes. And it's not that the opportunity is just not there. But it's also that people don't take on those opportunities because it's cyclical. Because they don't see themselves and then there's a few and then they come in and then it's about retention. But yes, those opportunities are definitely a way, especially we're doing a lot of interviewing at the executive level too. So it's definitely an opportunity to make sure that we're getting not only the right candidates, but the candidates that also have the same outlook, perspective, and mission as the University and not people who just want titles and jobs. CHARLIE BENNETT: So now tell us about that 30% or 40%. What is the position in the library? What are you doing? AISHA JOHNSON: So within the library, my number one thing is support the Dean's initiatives, which is people, technology, and of course, content. Within that, I'm focusing on hiring because one of the initial things I notice with everyone that I talked to, I'm like, how are you guys doing all of this with just so few people? I know smaller institutions that have more faculty or double the faculty. This is crazy. So I know everyone's burning out. So my number one thing is hiring, recruiting, retaining, and making sure the people that are here are advancing in the nature they want to. So it's very much so people first for me. And then secondly, thirdly, strategic planning because we have our strategic-- we have currently a temporary that's ending soon. So long-term strategic planning, such as three to five years to make sure that we are indeed doing the things we said we're going to do but also taking calculated risks and looking at some things that we could do, innovation and encouraging the faculty to go out on a limb and do something different but not do something different because nobody's doing it. And then also reorganization. I strongly believe that we have to reorganize to one, make sure we're crossing T's and dotting the I's but also to make sure that we are allowing people to do the things that they enjoy most instead of having them do a bunch of different things because we have gaps in positions. The reorg is really for a better flow of business. FRED RASCOE: Your new job, your new role here is in your admin role here the Georgia Tech Library, very much focused, 70% focusing on things that are outside the library, campus administration duties, 30% managing or overseeing a couple of departments here. And you have a scholarship background. I don't think that we've mentioned it in the interview yet. We've had on before talking about your previous scholarship, The Julius Rosenwald Fund that you wrote a book on. Are you going to-- I'm assuming that kind of stuff has to be minimized or vanishes completely in the kind of role that you have. Are you going to miss that or is there still some room for that? AISHA JOHNSON: The job isn't 70-30 split. My weeks are like that, though. So the weeks and the meetings are just-- they tend to waver between that 60-40, 70-30 split. No, I absolutely love scholarship. And I'm like an octopus. My hand is always in multiple things and I'm one of those people that I never pick a side. I always tell people-- literally at the dedication for that book is actually to the lovers of libraries, museums, and archives. Never pick a side. I really feel like you should do the things that you're passionate about and figure out how they all can intertwine. And anybody I've talked to, people in archives, CISO, public services, the LSC, one of my things is scholar-practitioner and I want people to write about what it is they're doing because Georgia Tech is such a unique model but it's internal. But you do some really awesome and significant things with service and technology. And I think that Georgia Tech as a library, Georgia Tech as the faculty here, the faculty and staff here are scholars. But that's not always shared. So for me, it's a matter of encouraging and supporting that scholar-practitioner behavior, presenting, publishing, things of that nature. So I find a way to kind of intertwine everything and all the things that I love. So it may get reduced a little bit but not diminished. I'm currently working on two or three articles right now. So it's just one of those things where it's a part of me. FRED RASCOE: You're going to have to find more percentages because 70-30, that's not enough to fit that in. There needs to be another 20 stuck in there or something. AISHA JOHNSON: It's definitely a 200% job, I promise. CHARLIE BENNETT: Octopi or base 8. It's a completely different number set, Fred. WENDY HAGENMAIER: You are listening to Lost in the Stacks and we'll be back with more from Dr. Aisha Johnson about working at the Georgia Tech Library on the left side of the hour. AMEET DOSHI: All right. We're going to try one more. And this time [INAUDIBLE] KIERAN: Hi my name is Kieran. You are listening-- wait. AMEET DOSHI: You are listening to Lost in the Stacks on WREK Atlanta. KIERAN: You are listening to Lost in the Stacks on WREK Atlanta. CHARLIE BENNETT: Today's show is called New Librarian, New Challenge. And while we use the label new librarian for Aisha because she is new to the Georgia Tech Library, it's actually a terrible misnomer as we discovered when Wendy threw a question in at the end of the interview. WENDY HAGENMAIER: If you weren't an information professional, if you were not in this profession, what would you be? AISHA JOHNSON: I wanted to be an attorney when I was younger but that's because my father wanted me to be. And literally the last semester of my political science undergrad degree, I was like, I don't want to do this. This is not what I want to do. But I was taking a political science research class at the time. And I was like, I love this and I start exploring more into graduate programs and and I found the School of Library and Information Science right there on Florida State's campus. I was working at a library at the time and I'm like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Like this is me, helping people getting whatever information it is that they need, the knowledge, help people building. I love professionally, personally I love helping get people the information that they need. So I really-- librarianship is not-- this was a first librarianship and archivist because I'm both. This is the first career for me. I've been a member of ALA since I was 13. So I don't know how that happened. I checked my membership one year randomly. I'm like, can you tell me because I was updating my resume? I emailed the people, can you tell me how long I've been a member and what year I joined? And it gave me the year and I'm like, I don't think that's right. I would have been 13 and I'm not sure that's legal. But they were like, nope. This is our record. This is your name. I don't know what else I would be doing. This makes me extremely, extremely happy as a person. FRED RASCOE: File this set under HD38.15.T48. [MUSIC PLAYING] (SINGING) I'm a fool to do your dirty work. Oh, yeah. FRED RASCOE: You just heard Dirty Work by Steely Dan. CHARLIE BENNETT: Yes. FRED RASCOE: And before that, Something Better Change by The Stranglers, songs about being a leader for change while also dealing with the all-consuming administrative duties of the job. CHARLIE BENNETT: Now that Amit's gone, we can play Steely Dan whenever we want. [MUSIC PLAYING] WENDY HAGENMAIER: Welcome back to Lost in the Stacks. Today we're speaking with Doctor Aisha Johnson, the new Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Outreach at the Georgia Tech Library. CHARLIE BENNETT: So you mentioned reorg earlier. Tell us a little bit about arriving in an administrative position and deciding, oh, I've got to change all this. AISHA JOHNSON: I keep saying Georgia Tech Library is a model for engagement and outreach. And I think the reorg and the departmental structure has to reflect that, particularly with CISO, where there is a liaison model for traditional R1 institution. And Georgia Tech is nowhere near a traditional R1 institution. Our liaison model really has to focus on engagement and not just resources or services, but really about engagement. And that engagement can indeed go beyond the campus. That is one portion of it. And then splitting the other portion, that data visualization instructional technology. I think those departments are amazingly unique and such a luxury to have. But I think we can also market it better. I think we can get more professionals. I think we can be a model for having such a lab that's phenomenon where we have people. I think the first or second week I was here, people from other universities-- I mean, and I know that wasn't a first-- coming to see this lab. So I think that we can help with data research management of our faculty. We just have to carve out the service so people know it's here. It's available. We have not only the technology, the services, but the expertise. So really, I want to be able to highlight people's best passions, the things that they absolutely love to do but show how we're supportive of the University, the faculty, and the students in different ways, but clear ways. WENDY HAGENMAIER: Higher ed is in an interesting moment right now with a lot of fiscal challenges, changes, the pandemic obviously pushing education in certain directions. And I'm wondering if you see any potential tension between an emphasis on the scholar-practitioner model for librarians and archivists or folks working in libraries and the sort of trajectory of higher ed in terms of the bottom line or tuition or perhaps an emphasis on maybe service provision or student success. Do you see the scholar-practitioner model sort of coexisting or supporting those factors or do you see some tension there and how do we work with that? AISHA JOHNSON: One, I definitely see tension and the other half of that is going to be one, because it's different but the other half of that is scholar practitioners are actually a support mechanism for academia and what it is because really, the practice, the actual practice informs the curriculum. It informs what we're doing. It also informs the services of what's needed. But we also love theory. And theory doesn't always translate to practice. So that's the tension because people say, this is how it's supposed to go. This is the bottom line. This is what we're focused on. It's very black and white. But the reality of it is nothing's black and white. So we have to look at different ways that we can support what the bottom line is, what the goal of the institution is but you still need that practitioner perspective because they're the ones who are actually hands on the ground. They're the ones doing the work, working with the system. They troubleshoot. They know what works well. They have little band-aids that they put on the system to make it work the way it's supposed to work. There's just so much that the practitioner offers. I think oftentimes the practitioner's experience and knowledge is undervalued when we're looking at the big picture. So it is a support but having to advocate for that is the task. But the tension is going to be there because it's not traditionally-- especially it's not something that's usually pushed for non-teaching faculty versus tenure track faculty. That's a part of their promotion process, right? That's like especially at the research one, oftentimes publisher pairs is just a thing. So it's not really pushed for non-teaching faculty or the practitioners because then it's like, focus on service. Focus on making sure our faculty and staff have what they need. But hey, we have something to say. Hey, we actually can add value to what it is that you do as well. FRED RASCOE: So you started in December of 2021. When you get to December of 2022, you'll be on job 12 months, one year. Do you have a list of the things that you can share, anyway like by December of 2022, I hope this has been done and this has been done and this has been done? AISHA JOHNSON: By December of 2022, I want us to have hired six to 10 more faculty members in various departments. By December 2022, I would like the reorg to be in place before we hire those people. CHARLIE BENNETT: All right. You heard it here first, 62 new librarians. AISHA JOHNSON: Six to 10. Six to 10! CHARLIE BENNETT: No, I heard 62. I heard 62. Thanks, Aisha. AISHA JOHNSON: I just came out of a budget meeting yesterday. WENDY HAGENMAIER: Today's show is called New Librarian, New Challenge. Our guest today was Dr. Aisha Johnson, Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Outreach at the Georgia Tech Library, new to Georgia Tech but not the profession. FRED RASCOE: File this set under Z678.L47. [MUSIC PLAYING] WENDY HAGENMAIER: You just heard Saints by The Breeders and before that Beyond Belief by Elvis Costello and the Attractions. Those were songs about the challenge of big transformations and feeling good about being where you are. [MUSIC PLAYING] CHARLIE BENNETT: Today on the show, we interviewed the new Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Outreach at the Georgia Tech Library. And it made me wonder, do any of you on the show want to be a Dean someday, associate or otherwise? WENDY HAGENMAIER: I think I'd say maybe. It's interesting to me. I don't have enough experience to know if not or if so but I think that the way higher ed is shifting, the way libraries are shifting, and the sort of collaboration among organizations to navigate those shifts is interesting. So maybe. How about you, Fred? FRED RASCOE: No. No, no, no, and no. I'll elaborate. If I was in charge of a library 30, 50, 80 people, whatever it is and I made a decision and you know 79 of the 80 thought it was great and one person thought it wasn't great, it would destroy me and I would have to quit. How about you, Marlee? MARLEE GIVENS: Heck no. I'm with you, Fred. I would feel the same way about the little voice in my head will always say, what if you make a bad decision? And I've been told that making a bad decision is not the end of the world but it crushes my soul. FRED RASCOE: Yeah, I don't believe it. WENDY HAGENMAIER: Charlie, what about you? CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh. Well, it would require a truly obscene amount of money and I still don't really want to do it. Roll the credits. [MUSIC PLAYING] FRED RASCOE: Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library written and produced by Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, Marlee Givens, and Wendy Hagenmaier. MARLEE GIVENS: Today's show was edited and assembled by Charlie in the house where he suffered COVID cabin fever. WENDY HAGENMAIER: Legal counsel and authentication of a long-term ALA membership were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. MARLEE GIVENS: Special Thanks to Aisha for being on the show, to all the members of the Georgia Tech Library who laughed at her jokes, and thanks as always to each and every one of you for listening. FRED RASCOE: Find us online at LostInTheStacks.org and you can subscribe to our podcast pretty much anywhere you get your audio fix. CHARLIE BENNETT: Next week's show will see the return of old friend of Lost in the Stacks and for some reason, polar bears. FRED RASCOE: It's time for our last song today. And you know how we usually ask our guests what music they like and then sometimes we'll play that artist or song for them on the show. MARLEE GIVENS: Oh, wait a minute. FRED RASCOE: Well, one of the artists that Aisha mentioned was Nickelback. She's a Nickelback fan. CHARLIE BENNETT: Fred, did you-- FRED RASCOE: I couldn't bring myself to play Nickelback. No offense to them or to their fans. I'm sure they're fine people. MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah, well now that cold open makes sense. FRED RASCOE: But Aisha also mentioned that she likes early '90s R&B. WENDY HAGENMAIER: I think quote "real R&B" is what she called it. FRED RASCOE: No argument from me. And since this is an admin party, what does every party need? A DJ. So from 1993, this is Hey Mr. DJ by Zhané right here on Lost in the Stacks. Have a great weekend, everybody. [MUSIC PLAYING]