Join me in welcoming
Beatrice Mtetwa to our states

thank.

YOU THANK YOU.

Thank you.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

And I turn the program over
noun to Charlayne Hunter.

Thank you Voice or and
you've heard from everybody now except

Beatrice so I'd actually like
to start with her because.

One of the things that I have found
in my trips when I was still based in

South Africa I would come back
from the United States and

cry what was going to put them away and

people would look at me like
I had lost my mind because

they still had the image of the.

Transition from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe and

the role that Robert Mugabe
play in their minds and

thanks no thanks to our U.S. media.

There had not been a lot of
attention paid to Zimbabwe sense

it became a Democratic state country and
so

I've had the over the years to try and
help people understand.

That the Zimbabwe in their mind is not
the Zimbabwe that exists today and

that is one of the reasons I am so
thrilled that bitterest and

Ted is here and I heard her talk herself

yesterday about those
early days of freedom and

democracy in.

The way.

And I would like her just
briefly to recount her own role

in welcoming the Zimbabwean democracy and

then maybe just ease into
what it's like today so

that we can engage the rest of the panel
but you were among those who had

a welcoming for
democracy welcoming to democracy right

yes our men richly
everybody in that time was.

On a high because the majority
of us were happy that

a president who had his
party had won the elections

I was a student at
the time in Edinburgh and

we organized probably.

The biggest and
longest celebration party we got

all the students from Glasgow from.

We were that happy about.

His ruling party winning and
we had reason to be because he is

an articulate man he is a very bright man.

And in his independent speech
he said all the right things he

spoke of reconciliation long before
it became empires way in South Africa

he made it very clear that there was
not going to be any richer abuse in and

that everybody in Zimbabwe should work for
the common good of

Zimbabweans going forward and
that we should all work together and

in fact in his first cabinet we had a.

Range of people in the cabinet we had the
he is former falls in that have been so

I mean we all believed that
it would really get better

and so in a graduate hurt.

Us.
I did working in Zimbabwe I worked

as a prosecutor for the government and

you know we went through
the motions planes would.

Where every third day shoot but.

With the problems in the southern
part of the country which And

with the ACMA I'm
acknowledged at the time.

In fact there was a pretense that
everything was played on OK So

only those of us who had friends who
came from that particular region where

aware of what was going on and that
something was going on also became clear

because suddenly there were
detentions without trial.

Even if you could say arrested
was a law passed which

gave the minister the power to really
had mean to you to believe there was

a ministerial certificate against me
the courts couldn't give you bail and

it became quite clear that you know
there wasn't a subversion no for

the Constitution say and about what time
was that that this was in Turn around

turn around nine hundred eighty
three eighty four eighty five but

for me what became stark and
personal was a case that I dealt

with in one thousand eighty five
cents a prosecutor I prosecuted for

members of the ruling party who had.

Been charged with political violence
against a member of Bishop Missouri was

cut and they do what they had done
to this woman and her kids for me.

Really were so despicable that they
ought to go to have gone to jail

what did they do and they had made
this woman after preaching at

take off her clothes in a township
called Marvel who they made here or

her clothes and carried them on her
head and then walk in the townships.

Naked naked with two
teenage sons behind it and

I mean under African culture that's
absolute taboo to see your mother

naked even in the house I think
they're running through a.

Naked walking the streets of a township
with a crowd looking I thought that was so

despicable that it ought to really be.

Dealt with severely and they did get
sentences of between eight months and

twenty four months but they way pipes and

after spending one to one thousand jail.

And I never would have discovered
this if face hidden or it's you know.

Made one of their few specimens
a complainant in a case that was

that I was to deal with the following week
way this man had been fired unlawfully

from his work and made the time it was
a criminal offense to hope to just fire

someone from work without due process so
we were going to.

Prosecute them ploy of the following week
and then I completed my forms for this man

to be brought from jail to be a witness
and the prison officers came back and

said all sorry those guys want to spend
one night and I thought it was a mistake

now you were working for the governor I
was going to try for the government and

on the day of the trial the guy came in
and I said why are you not in jail and

he actually loved me with
a smile on his face and.

This is not good.

And that's when I said you know I don't
think I can continue to be part of this

because this is not just and
the magistrate abjured before who

is the one we had with the case previously
just you know said don't worry and

he this employer pleaded
guilty you were supposed to

do two to be ordered to reinstate
this person to pay him a.

Salary for the period of unlawful.

You know dismissal and.

Also to pay a fine the magistrate just
said OK you've pleaded guilty Mr Sorenson

we are bad men we don't do
that in Zimbabwe anymore.

But your question discharged.

Which to me was like
what's going on here and

when I see me said Well I mean he's
not going to get justice in my court

because if you believed you know what
happens justice he would be in jail such

importune wrongs can't possibly
make it right it's you know I mean.

You know he's entitled to see how this
system should work he said well he should

go to the same people who released him for
his type of justice and this might

be straight as an ex convert and he had
fourteen the war for liberation I mean for

me that was when I said I'm sorry I'm not
going to be part of this because it's like

I'm really aging in a best in
a system that's breaking down and

how many years into the democracy was
this this was eighty five eighty six for

four or five years five years or
so then you became

then I then left government
intervention to private practice and

then from around nine hundred
ninety seconds and treated.

And rights work I want to get some
more details from you in a moment but

let me just quickly ask
John when I interview F.W.

de Klerk years just prior to the.

Multi-racial democracy coming to
power I said how's it going to feel

after all these years and
power to be out of power and

you know what his response was he said
well we're not going to be out of

power long because a liberation
movement has never seen.

Seated at the government now what
Beatrice is telling me about

this ex combat who is now you know.

Going against the law is this
typical I mean with F.W.

de Klerk right about these
liberation movements and

speaks particularly of Zimbabwe and
then maybe broaden it out.

Beatrice Mtetwa is a Democrat but she's
a Democrat of a particular stripe she's

a Nelson Mandela Democrat Nelson Mandela
was willing to come out

of jail after twenty seven years in honor
of the rule of law above anything else

that gave him the foundation it
seemed to me to manage the transition

in a way that was acceptable to
all stakeholders in the case of

South Africa it was a very different
psychology than has prevailed and

that's the great tragedy of Zimbabwe.

Jeff what do you think about that I mean
you've observed Zimbabwe for how long now.

Almost a decade and I'm really dating
myself now that you have that long but

it's interesting because when you
talk about liberation parties and

the issue of power in in just Southern
Africa a liberation party has never lost

an election ever in the region you
look at Mozambique you look at

maybe the South Africa Zimbabwe they've
never lost and within the region

the value had at the fifteen countries in
the Southern African Development Community

only three countries have had actually
a political turnover in the executive.

And Zambia the others it's either
the same person in the Garveys case or

does two centers case and go for
the same political party so it's

it's important to remember that Zimbabwe
it's a horrible situation it's horribly or

process but
it's also not an anomaly in the region

you know you have this you have this
larger narrative of political elites.

Under power at any cost and going back to

Beatrice was saying about you know
the early days of Zimbabwe Democracy

there was a lot of hope you know Mugabe
has championed international game in D.C.

He gave a round of talks at
Howard University at other

colleges he was a guest of Jimmy Carter
President Jimmy Carter at the White House

you know there was international fanfare
surrounding surrounding this man but

at the same time he was giving
this great this great independence

speech was already working with the North
Koreans on the ultimate end of being what

some called the genocide and the much
of the land area so by we were upwards

of twenty thousand people were killed
I think Samantha Power covers it and

her book A Problem from Hell about the
U.S. response or lack thereof to genocide

So from very early on you started
seeing the warning signs with what God

was involved with Syria how long have you
been observing Zimbabwe in particular and

do you have been a sense of what made
that change was it always there or

you know going back to the liberation
movements not being able to

successfully function as a democratic
in a democratic space what do you think

about that on two thousand and five I
was actually living in South Africa and

Operation Murambatsvina was occurring
where seven hundred thousand people were

displaced internally in Zimbabwe in
an effort to disperse an opposition

party's political base back out into the
rural areas where it would be harder for

them to mobilize and and
vote and I came back to the U.S.

Much like your experience and
I was raging and

railing about this terrible human rights
crisis that occurred and I know when you

when I was talking about let alone
where Zimbabwe was on a map.

So I've been involved for close to
fifteen ten years now as well and.

So you know in regards to
it a lot of it is just it's

you know when you first come out
as a liberation here and you.

You gained this freedom for your country
it gave you a lot of autonomy and

authority to do what you want and

you had earned your stripes you had fought
the fight you had fought the battle

you had stood up to the colonial
authorities and they gave you a lot of

legitimacy as a ruler and
that is still what is played today

in regards to if you're not a war veteran
in some way if you have not had that

legitimacy to your political
history is very challenging for

you to move forward into to challenge
the ruling party in any way but

governments have also had to shift away
from that and become creative and so

you'll see them also finding ways to
replant repress other groups in a way that

it's not dissimilar to what
happened here but L.T.V.

groups and sexual identity
individuals are often targeted

as a way to sort of say like this is
western culture this is not human rights

this is an A bomb an abomination this is
you know against the rule of nature and

are used to whip people up into
a frenzy and you know we actually had

seen this here in the U.S. in the two
thousand and the George Bush campaigns and

this is something that is often used
quite a bit on the continent as a way to

distance people and to retain power and

to show that there is a differentiation
between us and them between the west and

between African rulers so
there's the legitimacy of having Ben

liberation hero still has some play
it's just lessening particularly among

youth which is the biggest demographic
population bubble on the continent and

so there is some of a shift
into how also to maintain

that political power remind I'm
coming to you now Deborah but

John will say this but because I know he.

Maintains the most optimistic view of
South Africa but we'll talk about that in

a minute but the current president South
Africa Jacob Zuma who heads the ruling.

Party has said that the African National
Congress which is the ruling party will

rule to Jesus comes and that goes back
to what you were just saying that

the liberation movements tend
to think they have authority in.

Perpetuity but Deborah I was
going to ask you a particular.

Just mentioned was.

The women of the Women of
Zimbabwe Arise What role have

the has the women have the women played
in Zimbabwe and are they treated any

differently you think then others because
there were women in the movement in the in

the in the in the liberation struggle
you know you're absolutely right and

I think what we're seeing here is just
a steady a power that can take those

characteristics is the power always
are the same regardless of the social or

political context so you have
disenfranchised groups come into power and

then unfortunately create an elite.

That can be an reinforces making and other
like you were talking about someone else

becomes other they oppressed group so
in the case of women.

Certainly in Zimbabwe but in other parts
who were like hand in hand shoulder to

shoulder then once the power came it
was difficult for it to be shared and

so therefore a lot of times even
though in many countries in Africa

because intuition is a lot more liberal
than say in the United States as relates

to carving out roles of women making sure
it's part of the Constitution I think

in the United States you have
the few Thewlis women in.

Power and then in any many of the African
countries in particular Rwanda is

South Africa and others exactly but
I believe that it's simply

that women continue to hold
the tension in the country in

terms of between the power in the elite
and the human rights work to still

needs to be done through the organizing
efforts of the civil disobedience.

So lifting up and supporting leaders like.

This I think without strong women who
are under continue to undergird that

civil disobedience and
quest for a truly democratic

society then we will probably see.

You talked about was earlier Tell
me a little bit about how you see

their actions and.

How they're being responded to and
stop it and yet.

As Beatrice knows full well
having represented them in the.

Corridor amazing organization
founded in two thousand and

three by by two women who are still
leading the organization today are founded

eleven years ago I think the current.

Current Director General Williams
has been.

Detained over fifty to.

Fifty times over a ten year span she's
been imprisoned detained oftentimes.

Physically and

it's the largest group having worked
on the continent in the region for

a while to my mind is the largest
grassroots organization that I know.

That was eighty thousand women across
the country percent ten percent and

it's you also you do have women positions
even within the government occurred

vice president is a woman though if you've
been following events in Zimbabwe it's

really interesting where President
Mugabe's wife is now very front and

center putting her face out there
she's currently on a nationwide tour

where she's attacking the vice president
who happens to be a woman so there's a lot

of talk now that when there's an appeals
Congress party happens next month you're

going to say she was on a nationwide
shopping tour because that's when most of.

She became lady she does
most of her shopping abroad.

But yes so there's a lot of
rumblings now that a lot of the die.

When I was falling in
a place where you might see.

The stage set for.

Present McGovern's wife to essentially
take the reins of the country

let me ask you Beatrice about that there's
so many questions I want to ask you about

the kinds of things that are going
on that you've been challenging.

But in particular I'm curious about
the fact when I covered Zimbabwe

there was a burgeoning
alternative party that

was that was being formed to challenge the
government and they've had now what two or

three times to do that what what's
happening with those who see

things as you do constitutional you
know and herons to the constitution and

so forth so are they gaining any strength
and influence in the country but

I mean for the fest's to elections they
can be no question that their position one

that was popular That was
Morgan Chang around and

that was the party's.

His party M.D.C. and the women for
democratic change and

which probably is the reason
why that the violence

continued but most parties enough.

M.D.C. suffered from the founder syndrome
when it became quite clear that in

a large portion of members of that party
we're not very happy with the leadership

their leader wouldn't even listen to
to to any changes in the structures and

the only change that he could
think of was you know if you don't

agree with where do things I
kick you out of my part so

even with that information we saw that
the democracy pairs wasn't playing out

their way you expect an open invitation
that calls itself a movement for the most.

Tried to change to be here into any
democratic principles as a result

it is severely weakened because there
was a split in two thousand and

five they head then another break away
party happened around two thousand and

eight two thousand and nine and

this year he has been fed the split
which started last year so

we have with many M.D.C. parties is.

Their factions really and so
we are seeing the one side trying to

create some form of coalition but I'm not.

Confident that that will come up
with anything meaningful anyway.

It's incredible how when you look at.

Oppressed people how they tend to to.

Actually adopt what the press
of state against them because

this break ups we're talking about
have been accompanied by violence.

The same party members beating each
other up the very same people that

we were defending being beaten that
we're now beating each other up and

they were now coming to us saying defend
us against this guy have said look

guys I'm sorry if you guys are Democrats
and they are being beaten up that's

the democratic way of doing things in your
party I'm not getting involved because for

me as spent fifteen years
trying to defend these guys

from the excesses of
the dominant party and

they're now doing exactly the same
that has been happening and

talk about some of those excesses because
some of them are pretty egregious.

But I mean.

Enjoyment of pets that they
give themselves they were

in the last government with their
with them die with the government

require help you to to have.

The truck and packs that go with with
being in power in Africa the perks here.

They were.

Quite happy to take some of the things
that they used to criticize when their

outside power is being and necessary
in a country like Zimbabwe where they.

Really on its knees and
of course there were the pesky

indiscretions of some
of the leadership that.

A lot of people wonder if this
is the type of leadership that

we want I mean with regard to women.

Jeff has referred to Women of Zimbabwe
Arise and they are indeed a formidable

you know group to contend with
we have many many women leaders.

In Zimbabwe in positions of authority but
they are there.

On Thames dictated to by the men and

the men of course are not going to get
powerful women to be in powerful positions

because they want the kind of
woman in those positions so

they can control what about the vice
president the vice president today

by Robert Mugabe she didn't get in
there by being voted in there but

I mean we didn't mind that
because she deserves it she.

Is a hero you know of
the liberation war and

we thought that this was going
to lead to her being a president

now we have a Constitution which says
if something happens to the vice

president becomes the president
had till the next elections so

it's quite obvious that they don't
want me anywhere near there in

case something happens and she becomes
president and the most incredible

thing is that it is women who are in
the forefront of saying get rid of.

You know and you say to yourself
as women we do in this day and

say why no fuss should become president
the very same political leaders

who really ought to view saying it's
reman we think we might do better they're

the ones we're saying is really
saying it's it's a Absolutely said

Is this something though that creates
this do you have in the sense of

that something that would create
what would be a truce is describing

I mean you do have the women of was who
are who are strong in opposition but

is it the violence is it
what is it do you think.

In regards to women trying to
remove other women from power.

That are used to do rape crisis work and
as an attorney I can tell you if you

have a rape case you do not
want women on the jury women

are incredibly judgment
all of them are women.

And it is it's a challenge so
I you know I don't know necessarily.

Why the movement has to take mature
out is being led predominantly by

a lot of other women other than the juror
has been around for quite a while.

And Grace is fairly clearly
being backed by her husband.

In order to be making
the push that she's making so

it might also just be you know
jumping on the bandwagon effort mature

as Beatrice pointed out you got where
she got because Mugabe put her there and

show you follow the lion that is
being backed by the power and if it

appears that she is not in fact anymore
and Grace is the one being back then

you just shift your allegiance because
that's also where the perks will go.

But you know what is actually
truly of an annoying reason I

mean I can't say Beatrice has the better
authority to speak as somebody who.

Currently living there Jeff were you
trying to yeah I was going to say I think

the other point the other important thing
to consider when you talk about democratic

movements and women and when you're
living in a country in which eight out of

ten are living on less than a dollar a day
oftentimes when women are taking care of

their families you know and they're made
concerns we're going to get water to them

how am I going to put food in
the stomachs of my of my children

how am I you know how much you get these
basic necessities how are we going to have

access to these basic services so
I think obviously there.

Are elsewhere it's not I you know we
can sit up here and talk about you

know democracy and liberty and freedom of
expression and freedom of association but

what does that mean to the average woman
on the ground so part of my work and

one of the issues I've been very much
involved in is you know making those those

linkages So go into the rural areas and
engaging with local communities to make it

to make those connections between access
to basic services and how that relates to

good governance how that relates to no
one knows their main concerns are for

their main concerns and the mouth and
making it through the next day and

their children so I think I think
energy is spent is spent elsewhere and

I think that might be the cause
one of the causes of the deficit.

Let me go back to Beatrice on another
topic because you've alluded to this and

those of you who on this panel look at
this kind of thing all the time but

give us some examples because I've heard
you talk about some of the egregious

violence against people in Zimbabwe.

Tell us a little bit about that you've
been the subject of that kind of violence

or the victim of that kind of violence
yourself but give us some examples of some

of the kinds of things
that the ruling party and

the government perpetrates
on people they deem as as

critics or even people who just speak out.

But give us some examples of some of
the extreme violence which isn't so

extreme Actually according to how often
it happens tell us about some of it but

in the documentary you see some of
the victims with the physical injury and

injuries you know.

Suffered at the hands of.

The perpetrators of the violence what
kind of physical emotional fate they

face a lot of torture.

That goes on when you get arrested
instead of being taken to a police

station you were taken
to torture chambers were

really a whole lot of
things happened to you.

That Jeff referred to earlier.

Is a peace activist who was abducted
in fact refrigerator was a bat

and for
three weeks she was being tortured.

Under the soles of being made to near.

Concrete that was cutting on.

Denied basic amenities.

Thankfully she was not raped
in two thousand I dealt with.

Election violence because I brought
a lot of the election challenges and

the number of women that I interviewed
with traumatized because their husbands.

Were members of the opposition
the numbers when credible I mean the one

woman's husband had been made
to sit on a hot stove so

that has to have his bomb
was just that way and

she herself was abducted and

she had a lot inserted into her
private parts and the men who are.

That simulator sexual intercourse
using the law as a result

she had to have a hysterectomy because
she was her view any damage by that

I mean that those are just
some of those that I have.

Only seen and
they've been medically contaminant and

a lot of the women in Zimbabwe been
sexually assaulted do not have the freedom

to speak freely about that because
it has a lot of consequences.

Your husband can say I don't want to
because you've been raped to your home so

even where women have been sexually
assaulted they were actually rather not

say it a lot of the women said
Can I speak to you in private and

they'll tell you yes this is what
happened to me this is but I don't

want it to come out publicly because if
it does my marriage might be at stake so

you can't prosecute so so
you find you can't do much about that

because I mean if she's not willing to
publicly say this is what happened to me

you know you can only rely on
violence social physical nature where

you can see where she was in debt even
when this very very clear medical

evidence of a sexual
assault still drive or

not but even you had some exposure
to torture when you were in

arrested right well I've just been.

Through this really.

Like that kind of torture kept away.

You know I mean the first three instances
of my being beaten up it was like

the first one was just overnight and
the second one was just over an hour and

they were done with us which is
easier to deal with because you know

you are then able to immediately go and
get medical attention and also to.

Needs to be done but for you my Jory
of the victims out in the rural areas

they were very little access to
amenities or even to have it and

by the time that it will help maybe
two weeks later and of course all saw

the social issues that arise from some of
these things they don't have that I have

to say this is what is happening to me I
don't want to dwell on this too long but

but I think what is important to
get into the psyche of Americans

in particular is the extent.

Of what is going on in these
countries like the Zimbabwe now I'm

sure it happens elsewhere we
might talk about that but

I just before come to you John let me say
Are you particularly look at the issue

of torture right in tell us a little
bit about what you're finding.

On the political violence that occurred
in the aftermath of two thousand eight.

Elections Amnesty International
documented two hundred fifty murders

twelve thousand victims of
violence including torture and

twenty eight thousand individuals
displaced from their homes so

tortures me what do you mean.

It ran the gamut.

Of government state agencies set up
torture camps and a lot of these were in

schools and rural areas and individuals
were forced to come to the camps

they had to sing songs that were in
support of the government they were

beaten the following which is
the beating of the soles of the feet.

When you hear it it I mean it kind
isn't even sound that bad like I don't

understand what's happening but the soles
of your feet are actually very tender and

if you beat them repeatedly
you can cripple somebody

at the very least make it impossible for
them to walk for quite a period of time.

People beaten so.

Obviously that their skin was
stripped away it was there were

documents documented cases of sexual
violence however as Beatrice noted.

It is completely unclear how much
that occurred because people

didn't want to disclose.

Just one hit with a club that was
documented as one of the twelve

thousand because she was still beaten as
a result of the election violence so.

There has been a long history
from the maskers a month about

the land in the eighty's
you know through the.

Occupation there is have been a long
history of impunity in Zimbabwe

where people are just not held to account
and so you can get away with doing

whatever you want including you know what
Beatrice noted in her opening story of

the individuals who forced the woman
to to walk through the townships naked

all the way through to you
know the president and.

And multiple others who have
committed pretty egregious crimes and

are not held to account there's quite
a culture of impunity and Amnesty does do

a lot of work on torture and we have
worked on some way on that issue the U.S.

small to other countries it's one of our
largest campaigns does anything happen as

a result of your investigations and
putting this out into the into the public.

Will we have secured release of
individuals from Guantanamo because our

government disclosed finally that they
had committed torture and containing and

confessions but we have pushed governments
to ratify the Convention Against Torture

and I've had a lot of success with
that and fortunately not some bob way.

They are not a signatory of
the convention against torture but

we have pushed into a lot of work so there
is a section in the new constitution which

states that I think is Section fifty three
that you have the right to be free from

torture cruel and inhumane treatment so
you know you keep pushing at it and

you just don't stop and
hopefully eventually we will.

Well why we don't torture Jon you want
to say something I did want to say

a brief word about progress because
I don't want to be naive and

celebrating the city and
courage of Beatrice and correct what but

the two thousand and thirteen election was
peaceful on the day of election as opposed

to it was the situation by the way in
Zimbabwe as opposed to the situation in

two thousand and eight now by former
C.E.O. John Hardman is here will remember

that the Carter Center did not observe
either election because we couldn't get

enough political space in a situation that
would be conducive to observing however.

The African Union and
the sad act regional bloc did observe and

what they've been pressing
the grain is that reasonable Sadek

is the Southern African Development
Community they send their

governmental representatives because they
were really concerned about the spillover

effect of violence on Election Day even
though there was a lot of hidden violence

in the in advance of the election.

This is a complicated game that's evolving
with the willingness of African states to

increasingly get involved the internal
affairs of other African states I've

watched as over my lifetime
it's going to slowly but

progress is being made what
the Carter Center does and

with Georgia Tech's help and I want
to stress the fact that Georgia Tech

contribution to the processes of
opening up a greater understanding.

Of the hypocrisy of the evil hypocrisy
of same gobby who wants to pretend that

he signs up to all these international
obligations and then performs differently

with Georgia Tech has given us a software
that would allow us in our election

observations when we can get in observing
this pressure on governments to let more

and more observers in to look at
the gap between the rhetoric and

the principles of international law and
the performance and

as you process that data and you can
build a case what we're finding is that

the African Union and sad act for
their own self interests are.

Increasingly willing to be a little
bit more Beatrice not as much as we

would like but a little bit more
pressuring on the governments that

are holding these kind of events to stop
the repression because the violence spills

over to the neighbors creates the refugee
problems there is progress underway and

so I wouldn't want to leave this
conversation Charlayne as you know

without encouraging those students in the
audience to think that there's something

to work on here going forward
OK I have written about.

The country's entire
continent forty eight or

fifty four How do you want to count them.

Taking baby steps to democracy and

that we need to as you are encouraging
us to be a little more understanding.

And patient but
how law I mean we look at our

own history and how long it took and
I don't want to go there now and

that's not going to talk about but are we
expecting too much or in this day and

age should these democracies be getting
into their more mature steps and

observing constitution no
guarantees are we expecting too

much well I never expected South Africa
to become a constitutional democracy

where the rule of law still prevails of
Jacob Zuma changes the Constitution or

the A.N.C. was to abrogate the protections
that are based on the rule of law in

South Africa and there's a danger of that
there's always a danger of that that I

would despair I am optimistic
about the willingness of African

states to hold increasingly each other
more accountable for their own reasons but

the role of civil society is the members
of this panel have reminded us and

we remind ourselves at
the Carter Center all the time

have to be an integral part of this and
having a voice like Beatrice Mtetwa.

Remind us of our obligations in
this regard there was a comment

by Mary Robinson last week that when men
meet with the elders when the elders when

men need to put took they talk about the
sharing of power when women meet they talk

about the sharing of responsibilities and
I think that's a very nice way to think

about what I think we all collectively
share but all we can do is keep pushing

at the margins Well let me ask you this
though I come to you in one second but

you talked about this landmark ruling
in South Africa yes that South Africa

can prosecute Yes people
who come to to war in

the South Africa from Zimbabwe
committed crimes give them away.

But how has the South Africa's
role been in term in its

relationship to Zimbabwe other than this
I mean this is landmark this is great but

has it been as strong as it
could be in pressuring or

is the South African say
pressurizing Zimbabwe to

get a grip you know and you know and
I know going back history and

I won't belabor this now but when
the initial of events happened after two

thousand South Africa got a land
problem just like the Zimbabwe and

by the way if Lionel Reagan had won in one
thousand eighty I've had Zimbabweans tell

me that Jimmy Carter would have done
the land willing buying willing seller and

might have a different history so
that explain what you're OK about well I'm

going I'm talking about is that that
there was a vital national interest to

South Africa not to have the land
issue become polarized and

lead to escalating racial tensions
within within in South Africa that's and

that means giving the so they were using
great glossary in the land for what they

were using already gloves and prickly my
dear I've got to say this about America's

stakes in this region I worried that
the race war in South Africa in

the one nine hundred eighty S. was going
to polarize race relations in this

country of the United States of
America that was our vital interest

even though in richesse
injure wanted us to believe.

It was a Simon town's strategic base and

Aslaksen in the east west confrontation so
these are ongoing struggles that

we have in finding that balance between
human rights and sovereign rights but

South Africa's role is why I put
something I think as your old one has and

then to be not as assertive as you and
I would have liked and preferred but

what we see in this constitutional court
decision two weeks ago is another step in

the right direction which America cannot
take by the way because we don't belong to

this International Criminal Court
because our legislature allow us to in

fact join the international community in
a more progressive stand Jeff you wanted

to say and I'm coming to get like thirty
seconds and then get into it I think it's

really important to remember that piece
called does not mean free fair and

credible and unfortunately the term
peaceful has become the gold standard for

elections and in Southern African I would
argue Africa writ large at the same time

there is some progress being made
who's the current chairperson of

the Southern African Development Community
its president who is the incoming chair

of the African Union that's President
Mugabe So while there are some small steps

being made I think you know there are some
serious problems that are says and

to answer your question I think no
it's not it's not we're not asking and

I think it's insulting to
Africans writ large to say.

You know we should hold them
to similar standards of living

every single serve even the most recent
survey by Africa barometer which by.

The corner you know across the board
is one of the most highly respected

institutions in Africa seven out of
ten Africans across the continent say

they want democracy and they think
it's the best form of government

there's a benefit in percent increase
of the composite index the man for

democracy in Africa fifteen percent
increase over the past ten years so

they're yearning for this but you have
people in power that are that are stopping

you know happening I think it's very
very dangerous to to to equate peaceful

with free fair and that's true as by
all accounts two to two thousand and

fourteen elections last year in
Zimbabwe were fundamentally great.

Well suppose it was a selection.

But I want to read it to say
that an election is a process

not just in the event or
in the day on the elections and

what happens you know leading to
the election is as important as

what happens on the day that
the elections take place in Zimbabwe for

in says they are the political parties
fought and fought and fought and

up to today they have not had access to
the voters roll determines whether or

not people who are supposed to
vote actually on the voters'

roll and whether they actually.

Voted and that's absolutely crucial if you
are going to have democratic elections

that hasn't happened the space
leading up to the elections for

those who are not in control of state to
purchase were simply not there if you

attend on the only television station in
Zimbabwe which is state controlled you

would only see one political party so just
access to the electorate wasn't day and

day despite the law saying they
should cover everything you know so

that the fact that no blood was
built on Election Day That's not

on its own really translate as Jeff
says to free and fair elections but

more importantly side that itself that
Southern African grouping has basic

minimum standards on how
elections should be conducted and

there ought to be you know
it ticking all the boxes so

that they have a read through and a body.

They don't reference True True True True
True True that in Zimbabwe has only been

able to be compliant on those
principles on just regularity mainly

you know they hold elections every
five years but whether or not.

All the other principal reside here
too is never interrogated by any

of the leaders in the region and it's for
a good reason because you know if

you say my elections are not free and fair
and next year I have a new elections in my

guys are coming to toot toot toot toot to
observe your elections of course you want

my neck I want my elections to be free in
sight so you have this change you know

that is really looking after each other's
interests in the region with absolutely no

regrets what they themselves have have
him agreed to at just reset briefly

to this to the pace that the president
is referred to where the constitutional

court in South Africa has forced
the South African government kicking and

screaming one of the organizations that
places one in real time involved trustee

that we brought that up the case in many
many years and last two thousand and

eight that thing with the government and
it is the government that

appears every ten because they
did not want this to happen it

is only the constitutional court
that is going to that is forced.

To do it but politically there
has been no will to deal with

the violence in Zimbabwe when they
go to South Africa despite the Fed

that is a signatory to their own
statute so that SES anyone who commits

human rights abuses are free when they are
in your jurisdiction deal with them they

have not wanted to deal with them and they
are being forced by the courts to do it.

I'm not so sure that in twenty years have
been even get that kind of decision from

the constitutional court in South Africa
because you can see there are ten to.

The judiciary in South Africa as we speak.

What about the quid pro quo
she just described that the.

Leaders in the surrounding countries
are affirming the thought that

Zimbabwe in the next is because they
don't want them coming they're.

Casting aspersions on their own in that
sense do you see that when you go and

observe of course there's nothing that we
disagree in but what Beatrice's genius has

been is to find that space when she
can operate within Zimbabwe and

what we're also seeing at the regional
level is a new opening of the political

space which is not as large as we would
like but if I believe my colleagues

at the electoral institute for Southern
Africa and now the Electoral Institute for

sustainable democracy and in Africa I saw
they provide technical assistance for

the African Union delegations of election
observations and their standards

are rising faster than the cost for
the SAT the regional sub regional Rexx or

regional organizations there is a dynamic
going on which is not as fast as

we would like but there is something that
is changing that is making it more and

more transparent and
accountable as a criteria for

having neighbors taking care of neighbors
I wish I could say a little less

romantically than that but that's the way
that I think the pragmatic politics and

the idealistic ideals that we all
aspire to may be converging but

we have to work at it all the time and
that's why a non-governmental

organizations like the Carter Center and
an amnesty or the or

the Kennedy Center are really important
we're talking about elections now but

I want to go back to something Sara raised
earlier and I think Zimbabwe has been

joined by any number of African countries
on the issue of L B G T rights lesbian gay

you know home sex who writes What
are you seeing in that regard there

it's it's very serious in that and
in Zimbabwe is that not right and

there's actually other countries where
the crisis is as much worse and.

There is an organization.

And some By the way called gay and
lesbians some calls.

And they are predominately targeted
around election time so as a way again

to amp up their rhetoric they are one of
the many organizations that were targeted

between the end of two thousand and
twelve and the middle of two thousand and

thirteen when the elections occurred where
offices were raided they were arrested.

But a lot of the time there's
just the sort of low level.

Disdain industry guard for the L G B T
population and some by way as opposed to

an actual targeting the laws against
homosexuality are not often.

Implemented or prosecuted in some way but
we've seen quite a rise in other countries

where particularly concerned
about Cameroon Uganda.

They Gambia is also in the process
of increasing the penalties and

their legislation for.

Gauging and homosexual relationships in
nature we've seen a lot of mob mentality

a lot of attacks of people who are either
gay or perceived as gay or who are allies.

So there has definitely been a push and

a and effort to further
marginalize the population and

amnesty characterizes it
under our anti discrimination

campaigns where it's just yet another
level of discrimination that occurs

against a group that has been marginalized
culturally and historically and

in fact to speak to that we can
leave out the role that the West and

just write plays in investing
in just a thousand dollars

into the church is the rhetoric around
the supporting interrogation organizing

movement efforts and so
that's another example of our.

Intervention in this or I could say
meddling in this really is fuel

to some additional human rights
violations of these groups.

You have to come in.

It's really interesting to have
Sarah saying you know they

these leaders in these countries
touch this vitriolic rhetoric and

like anti-colonial populist terms
particularly around election but

if you look closely a lot of laws in
which they use to criminalize same sex

same sex consensual conduct its colonial
era laws clone Aristotle rise and

what have you so it's really interesting
they don't even realize the apostasy which

these words that they're speaking you know
really you know pounding their face on

the table saying this is you know Western
incursions into our culture when in fact

the very means with which they used
to criminalize this is clown era laws

that are still on the books and I think we
have to often remind them remind them of

right I think it was in Uganda where
there was a big strongly progressive

response to the L B T population and
then when the religious right came in that

it managed to take it from up here down
to here you know there let's go back to

something I think that you
John talked about U.S. policy.

Toward Zimbabwe how would you assess it
and should we should the United States

be doing more I'm not advocating
the use of drones like you said.

I commented upon afterwards I was just
drawing attention to the fact that

the military instrument is used very
frequently by the United States and

in the case of Zimbabwe it would seem like
there would be more of a need to be more

interventionist in a political sense I
don't want to take away from the hard work

of embassies and others that have been
over the years trying to pressure Mugabe

but they are sensitive given
the Steal strategic stakes

are not deemed by Washington to be
that high to the regional opinion so

you have people lining up behind Sadek and
very skillful at playing that game and

he will send over a Beatrice Mtetwa just
to show that it's really not that bad

in Zimbabwe but
fortunately she's able to navigate.

Those waters in Illinois Well let's be
clear he didn't send around here because

he allowed overtime Our guest is Rick
briefly before we go to the audience and

you guys get ready and
ladies get ready for your questions but

do you have a comment on U.S.

policy towards And by the way what
it's doing right and what it's doing.

Could be doing.

But I just found the policy from
the Western developed world towards a bit

difficult to follow because when it became
clear that the country was going off

the rails there wasn't you
know the kind of response that

we thought should should should be day and
when you know the Western world

became critical those involved when it was
when they with their family vacations so

clearly impression that was
created out there was that

you are now talking about me because
it's taking land from your and

it's paid very very very much on that
because it was like it's wild and

they really were being mad at you know
big deal but now that why farmers and

you know who who will sanction
you will do this and it has not.

Their ordinary Zimbabwe.

Who is the brunt of them every day
excesses because if you look at the end I

think the media was also largely to blame
for that because instead of dealing with

a human catastrophe that the famine
Nations created by way of dealing with.

Somewhere Else thousands of.

Zimbabweans rules entire livelihood to on
their family and nobody even wrote about

them nobody can get any you did but
the point is that the majority

of people did not understand
that this land was being taken.

On the pretense that it would
be given to the winds but.

Hundreds of.

Being evicted from those very same
fountains Why did the law not say that

the farm workers take the farms and
run them because.

You know if you took me to a farm now and
gave it to me I would know what to do but

those.

Funds So I think.

The foreign policy has been
very difficult for me.

Because it hasn't been consistent it has
not been clear what it is meant to achieve

an.

Intervention sometimes.

If you ask me know what
the foreign policy is.

Because I don't know I don't even
know what it is also a lot of those

farms were given to
Mugabe's cronies as well.

I said we were open to some questions and
if you have them Would you please stand

identify yourself and speak I don't know.

Yet there's a mike out there thank you.

For neighborhoods and
communities here to work.

With the.

School.

Herself has come out.

To communicate.

The need for that kind of partnership and
the kind of partnership My question

is about partnership with the Diaspora You
know those of us who live in America

particularly those of us who
African-Americans are interested

in being a part of
the foreign policy dialogue.

Those of us who say we in
the Diaspora are not doing do

we depend on public.

So my question is can you.

And you too John communicate about
the role of the diaspora begin to reshape.

Foreign policy here in the West.

Beatrice but I don't know what influence
you would have in shaping your foreign

policy but I think as individual
organisations there's a lot of room for

collaboration I mean I went through
the Senate yesterday and I saw the civil

rights movement you know in a perspective
that I had never seen before and I

think if we had mentorship programs where
actually a way young people could come and

see that this is a process you don't
just do something today and you'll

get all the rights to morrow and that
this pain along the way if they could.

Get meant by the relevant organisation and
they could come back and

see that actually it is worth fighting
this you know cause because in the long

term the gains will be there maybe
small you may not completely

eradicate you know some of the problems
that we have all over the world but

if you just can creates in
an atmosphere where people can enjoy

basic rights enjoy a basic standard of
living it would have been worth it and

that more of us should do that so out
encourage a lot of mentorship because of

government and foreign policy there's a
whole lot more at stake in very different

considerations and I think that Beatrice
made the point yesterday when she talked

with a group of women leaders here in
Atlanta that a lot of the young people in

Zimbabwe today don't see the relevance
of really getting involved and

staying the course and she was saying
that she thought that that could

be something tart here about
the American civil rights.

Leaders especially
the ones stay the course

next question is there another question.

Here.

There's one OK.

I guess you're going to have to raise
your hands a lot of people with the my.

Name is and I see some professor
at the School of Economics.

My name is I mean.

It's a school of economics and my research
focuses on civil wars and the effect of

civil population can you just
speak a little more about the.

Depression and its effect on
population difference from effect

of let's say a liberation movement or
a civil war.

I mean how does it affect But you know it
does affect human rights activists and

people who fight against
the government but.

That's I mean is there
a differential impact.

Yeah.

I think the context of the Bible is really
interesting because you know you've had

one person in one particular political
party have thirty four years ago power so

Robert Mugabe.

Is this.

They're completely interlocked and
intertwined and I think the way in which

they've been able to sort of you
know through these various ways.

Repress the entire country is that.

You know through those means and
we're talking about.

What some would call genocide that
happened in the early eighty's and

the massive electoral violence that
happened in the early two thousand and

particularly post two thousand and
eight and as I said my initial remarks

at the podium you've seen a shift
from that because these leaders like.

Are clever you know they
don't have to go out and

necessarily be people over
the head with you know but.

Security agents and police.

And military officials to your
neighborhood before election you know what

happened to your family members back
during the last election we're still here.

People are still in power so.

Who is the current Justice Minister of our
things was a former defense minister who

perpetrated perpetrate the genocide and
many of these other horrible

horrible things happen in the country so
when you see these people in power

all they have to do is harvest the fear
they just go out into the countryside and

say you remember what happened last time
we're still here we're still in power and

we can so
inflict pain on you have a common.

You know.

Difference that we have.

The entire.

You can say I'm going to
rush to the courts for

protection because.

You know.

If they don't want you to get
to court you may not get.

You know if you do get to

court.

And.

Some of.

That there will not be you.

Went to the.

Interview them and.

We know where your kids go
to school if you want to.

You know what can happen to
them he came back and he was.

They didn't touch him but
I mean when somebody.

What more.

To you that's just so frightening and
they kind of do anything a boat in so

the Zeebrugge I'm sure that this is.

The lesson in this for people.

Even the civil society.

Intervening or.

So just in terms of that the economics so

the Civil War happened in Zimbabwe in
the context of the liberation war and

in the seventy's and since and there
hasn't been a war and the government and

the economy actually function fairly
well up until two thousand but

the backbone of the economy was
the agricultural industry and

when that collapsed through the nonuse
of the farms and so many of them going

follow the knock on economic effect is
what you're currently seeing where there

are I think to nine different official
currencies that are accepted in Zimbabwe

because there is no official Zimbabwean
currency anymore in two thousand and

eight two thousand and six seven and
eight when the famine situation was so

bad it's hard to mobilize
somebody to step up and

step out against their government when
they are eating twigs and leaves and

when as a parent you have to make the
decision that day do I feed myself such

that I might have the strength and the
energy to try to go find work tomorrow and

then have enough money to feed my children
or do I feed my children today and

not have them suffer from malnutrition and
then I'm not weak I'm not strong enough to

go try to find work tomorrow when you're
making those basic fundamental life

decisions it's very hard to mobilize to
speak out against your government and

the Mugabe regime has used that
effectively as a method to control there's

state resources are not used to build
the schools up to provide adequate pay for

teachers the medical industry
has collapsed the in.

The structure has collapsed
in two thousand and

eight with the cholera epidemic occurred
four thousand people died needlessly of

a disease that is treatable it's because
the infrastructure had collapsed and

this is part of the knock on effect of.

Where seven hundred thousand people were
displaced this is the same thing as taking

the city of Detroit which arguably has
already happened and just eliminating it

you know seven hundred thousand people and
this is their homes and

their livelihoods and they're just burst
in the rural areas and forced into these

makeshift townships so there's not
adequate sewage and ways to manage it and

so people are forced to scavenge
drinking water where they can get it and

then the rains came in which then mixed
the where they were going with inadequate

latrines with the way to get their
drinking water and you had a cholera

epidemic I mean there's these are the
knock on effects that not necessarily have

to do with the actual civil war but
from a government that consolidated itself

after liberation movement and then focused
on consolidating those resources for

themselves at the sake of their population
I think that's a really important thing

to remember I've been told to thousands of
babus it was in that export of food they

were feeding because essentially
your situation I would to have

a million people are in dire need
of emergency food assistance

from Your World Food Program so
it's you see that's one of the tracks.

Raised a lot of the success stories
from the state that was here today.

Let me take about three more
questions from the audience and

then I'd like to have our panel
wrap up with a good for you.

I got marching orders up here so
I want to be sure I don't offend.

In the back who is that.

Most former professor in the Overland call
it's due to some perhaps other members of

the planet would you
describe the consequences.

And Russian investment in symbol board.

And as you do the.

That address the U.S. policy because
my experience in all of these countries

is that increasingly as a while
Americans are insisting on commitment

to human rights the Chinese don't have
a care about that in the world and

as a result the Chinese seem to be really
moving in all over the continent and

not requiring governments to and
here are two human rights standards

because you want to comment on the bubble
headed north to share Look East

policy look east.

By the government which basically
said that we can you know stay with.

Your sanctions in the West we.

Are going to deal with all weather friends
in the east many and basically China so

we've had Chinese coming
to invest in Zimbabwe for

for the past decade certainly and
have been given large

tracts of mining concessions but

unfortunately we have
not seen the benefit of.

Those investments because firstly I think
all of you know that when the Chinese come

to town they bring even their
own wheelbarrow they bring their

street they will not offer
employment to any local so

you know that investment is not going
to create any employment anyway because

they make these deals where they're
able to bring everybody from from China.

You also know that the labor
practices that they.

Engage in and not just the normal
labor practices that you expect and

in fact more often than not they.

Don't comply with.

The local labor laws so
you have that problem of of them that even

if they they do employ
a few locals they will not

pay them even the minimum wage in
Zimbabwe has minimum wage across.

Different sectors and
they of course say China

really doesn't care about human rights
compliance you know they will not

insist on certain basic standards
before they can invest and

because of that also it's follows
that they really will not be bothered

about ensuring that they run
operations that are transparent I

mean we have them involved in our
family industry and nobody knows what

has happened to the dam once I've been
mining since they put the concessions and

it's an area of concern but.

In the last two or three months they
also have been jittery because it is not

clear who's going to be in power post them
about it and therefore there is a fear

that you know even they cannot
invest as they have been doing and

a whole lot of investments that we
promised about three months ago.

When a delegation went to to China
all of those I generally on hold now

we have Russia that has entered the fray
we had a big Russian delegation vote

Trix ago who also has
promised to invest in.

Zimbabwe and you can see the kind of
friendships that we are keeping and

how they probably will know you made them
if you close by your people from time to

time John are you seeing this around
the Chinese influence around the rest of

the continent and what is the impact
of that on democratic principles and

governance it's a big
subject Charlaine and

I'm trying to think of a quick
way to give some insights.

Because it's not a simple picture when we
sent an observation mission to Madagascar

there was the Chinese observer mission
functioning ostensibly the same way as

the rest of us Democrats are functioning
we know that in Africa today this is again

a subject for a future says the student
work at Georgia Tech there is this

alternative authours Tarion capitalist
market to challenges the liberal democracy

rule of law messy process of
self correcting slow evolving

political systems that they dressed in
that way and we all are advocating And

so how do you make sure that our
alternative has greater force

America's greatest strength is its
soft power its gets back to the Asper

a question that was raised earlier the
fact that you have assistant secretaries

of state from the United States who are
African-American who have come through and

have absolutely clear eyes about the
realities of American history and they can

advocate for democracy and rule of law and
no person is above the law gives

added force would this country support
them more strongly that would be fine but

it took the D. Asper a community to
package up Solomon Northup's memoir and

make it compelling to Americans to
shed a new light on our own history so

it is a very slow and messy process to
challenge a China that it's much more

quick to respond and intervene but
is itself going through its own

internal dilemma's and problems and that's
what a course by the way the Carter Center

tries to do is to open up both of those
those areas and to have a project on

Africa that would involve Chinese
Americans talking with Africans about

how do we move forward together because
there is no possibility of a conflict

over this that would be too
horrendous to contemplate but

even as China is beginning to have its own
economic problems how is that going to

effect its performance in
Africa do you think Jeff.

And you know doesn't me interesting to
watch you know it's not just involvement

but I cross the continent I would hazard
to talk about it just help build.

Headquarters in Ethiopia to
help build the parliament in

Harare I believe the military War College
in Zimbabwe when you travel to the rural

areas to really interesting in the region
Chinese brothers on the streets in these

you know these backwards places that you
would never never expect to see them so

it goes really deep and

I really want to touch twenty seconds
on the point that Beatrice made about.

Diamonds in Zimbabwe
recently in two thousand and

six they discovered the largest
diamond field in the world so

it's a gift a gift from God and the
Chinese came in a joint venture with this

by way of military called the Zimbabwean
mind of Development Corporation and

I've seen estimates I don't know about
you estimate about a billion dollars that

has already been included potentially and
diamonds every been mine from that area

but have that one potential
one billion dollars or

forty five million has
actually passed in Treasury.

So where's that money go and
clearly clearly

I would argue that it's probably going
in the hands of the Chinese and some.

Military military.

Planes also fighter planes Russia Russia.

I said too much I said three to.

One more over there and
here two more one here and there.

That my going to rant about.

I was calling on you but
you can go and then.

I want to think upon our views and
particularly Beatrice for

courage my name is Dixon also made
actually an undergraduate here.

I'm a Nigerian.

My question to you Beatrice is we
have a huge African community.

Across the school here in Atlanta you
know all across the United States.

Using Nigeria as a case
study like we post.

We have.

To keep recycling themselves you know over
and over again It's actually very hard for

the youths you know to think that they can
actually contribute to the development of

the country you know because we
have people ruled the countries

in the seventy's and
then they still keep coming back so

my question is What advice do you have for
the youth particularly after youths and

how we can contribute to
you know make our Impact.

But if they use can over Muslims
have to be a force to be

reckoned with the same nudes in other
parts of the well being the catalyst for

change by really demanding to be head
is a matter of right and I think.

That should be possible because I
don't think you have restrictions

that we have.

Absolutely no political will in
Africa to let young people behead.

Young people like women not
to have those rights and

I think it's up to the youth to demand
those rights in the same way that.

Those rights.

Demand their rights for themselves
not just to say we want to change

an old man for
that you must have a role to play in

the country's affairs like every other.

Right to quit more Yes My name is.

Professor in the same one school of
international affairs what you described

for a simple reminds us of
several other places in the world

I take students to Southeast Asia so
the country that comes to my mind for

instance is Cambodia they are the prime
minister who has been and.

Our For
many years clear connections to commit.

Brutal crackdowns on protesters So my
question to the panel given the spread of

social media are you aware of
interactions between civil society

croupe since in let's say come.

To these interactions exist
you have a comment on that.

Yes because from when you
look at social movements and

what works and what sustains itself
certainly social media is an important to

spark awareness will have yet to see how
and when you think back to play to sustain

resistance I think the Arab Spring as
a great example there was a lot of promise

around the role of social media
because not being a tool for

long term organizing resistance that
it has to change is that we desire to.

Have to say I saw on C.N.N.
this morning that ISIS is recruiting

people through social media any way
that you had one final question

here.

Is there one and then we kind of close
with one quick round of the panel.

Trying to end on a positive know you talk
about how they get the youth movement and

then there are some positive things you
mention including having labor laws that

have minimum wage for for workers what are
the positive things that someone in power

has implemented over the last twenty five
years that could be built upon to actually

create a movement like you know if you
don't mind I'll take your question.

And put it into my final question
because the Dean is looking at me so

given what he has just.

Let me go back to the Dean's words

at the beginning of this session
where she talked about hope.

Emerging and
prevailing now Beatrice aside from you and

the people who work around you
do you see any hope at all and

where do you see it coming from.

And if you don't be honest about that.

Well Zimbabwe has a brand new constitution
which has fantastic provisions

covers the youth full participation
full participation by women

talks of all the second generation
rights you know right to have

all the things that were not there
in the initial constitution so.

For me I am thinking we
can build on that and

by ensuring that what the Constitution
say's is complied with and

I've already started working on
challenges where I believe that you know.

Women are not getting what the
Constitution safe if you say and I think

they used should also demand their rights
that the Constitution says they have and

it's pointless talking of economy can
power meant in the Constitution when there

is no infrastructure within just the next
of parliament that deals with how you

will empower these women so
I am looking at that this new constitution

as a positive chief tool that we can
use to demand transparency in how our

resources are being used and
whether those resources should be used

actually to empower everyone across
the board even through the use of.

A law where you see hope if you see any
especially as it relates to Zimbabwe but

maybe to yeah I think the point
the Constitution is an excellent point and

I was reading an article in the domestic
press in Zimbabwe last night and

I just say we have done it
before as a government but

they were undertaking this
country to Sion aware.

In this campaign but
this was you know it's been

since the Constitution is about the place
it was passed by referendum and

as Beatrice was saying you have these
wonderful wonderful things they have

the gender commission and anti-corruption
commission Human Rights Commission but

to my knowledge they're all there said in
their name they exist in name only and

that's a you know Africa has
decided to take those replete

with beautifully written conventions and
treaties the principles guidelines that

govern democratic elections for instance
the African charter on human peoples'

rights that very much mirrors
the Universal Declaration of Rights so

when these leaders like Mugabe stand
up and say these are Western values or

Western norms we know that's
nonsense because if you compare

the universal declaration of African
charter they're very very similar and

I think it's a matter of holding
them to to their word you know it's

a matter of implementation these things
exist but we have to start we have to

start implementing them and I think that's
where the world South Africa comes and

that's where the role of these regional
powerhouse is coming down those the Son of

God is the South Africans these relatively
well performing Democratic states

are playing the leadership roles that
they should be instead countries like

South Africa are supplying is an appeal
with electronic monitoring devices and

how to monitor people on Facebook
on your question on social media so

that's the problem and I think part of
it to us but it's up to us to to stand

these people we should be standing
with the likes of President Obiang of.

Who's been in power for thirty five
years standing with the likes of Eduardo

said I was the president of
Angola who's been in power for

thirty years we should be
standing with Jacob Zuma as the.

One the president of Ghana these are the
people that are doing really great things

on the card to sort of get lost in
the mix of these are pressing countries.

Certainly to believe in the really the
impetus around the center fielder human

rights to lift up the fact that the people
that brings about social change

it's people working together for

collective action and you heard earlier
that there was a group of women leaders.

The most a man can be yesterday
to meet with Beatrice and

we have players to be one and

we will use the resources of the center to
the mentorship that she's talking about so

the young people who do encourage for
not only the young people fifty years

ago of the American civil rights movement
the young people throughout the world who

are doing great words to bring
about the change that we see.

When I was teaching I would have students
who were in their early twenty's and

they would just say the world is so
horrible and so or awhile.

And it does seem so horrible when
you're in your early twenty's and

you don't have the ability to look back
and see through this like longer channel

of history where for my grandparents the
concept of human rights didn't even exist

the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights is only sixty years old so

if you look back at where we have come
globally in that time frame we are moving

in actually leaps and bounds and when
you're in the midst of it it seems like

you are moving in that my new show
at a glacial pace through the end

is just not going anywhere but we are
moving and we are making differences and

it's important that we raise up with
those like the actress not only just in

events like this but you know in every
opportunity in every venue you can

show these people realize that they
are supported and that they're heard and

that their work is acknowledged and
that we do we can to keep them safe and

that we keep pushing forward so
human rights does matter and

it does make change and
we are moving forward and so for

me my concept of hope is not just in
Zimbabwe where you even house somebody who

is the Minister of Justice who has
committed very serious there allegations

of very serious crimes that he's committed
to he is against the death penalty so

Amnesty International works with him
to eliminate the death penalty in some

way you can almost always
find a common element.

To work people and try to go far to
advance human rights John I know you

are eternally optimistic so
let us know where you see the hope and

how you see what has to happen for
it to prevail.

I can answer the bigger question Charlayne
But the hope is rooted in this room I mean

we've spent two hours two and a half hours
talking about the internal affairs of

a small state in southern Africa because
it matters because it matters because

we are organizing ourselves a planet
around sovereign states where what goes on

with inside peoples other sovereign
states doesn't matter human rights

are becoming more important than
sovereign rights and for Georgia Tech

to acknowledge this by bringing Beatrice
and touchwood from Zimbabwe here and for

us to spend time talking about this
generic problem of rebalancing

our planet around human rights from
sovereign rights gives me hope.

Thank you Jon I just want to add my love
to think that the in I think that given

what I said at the very beginning
about our information about

small countries like them
bob way we need to demand

of myself and other media
practitioners that we provide you

with the information that you need to
make good judgments about the rest of

the world because as I said at the
beginning and as Martin Luther King often

said we are wrapped in a single
garment of destiny and

what happens to be a tourist or any of
the other activists in these countries

working for human rights affects each and
every one of us and

you look at the a bowl a crisis and
you know immediately.

Or should know how anything that
happens now in any part of Africa

is a part of us too in some way or
another thank goodness for him or

university and
the work that it did on the boat.

Thank goodness for the club and
the work that it does and

the work that all of you do we are all
wrapped in this thing going on and

of destiny and I want to thank
Georgia Tech for being aware of that and

honoring a woman who is one of
the leaders in the struggle for

human rights in the world because
if it doesn't happen in Zimbabwe

it's not going to happen
anywhere else THANK YOU THANK YOU

THANK YOU THANK YOU I

feel obligated to say
that one of the missions.

Now in college is to connect
the global to the local feel

compelled to say that a twenty
four team at the sesquicentennial

war in the United States
of America my personal

comes from the fact that one
hundred fifty years ago today

I would have been considered not human and

today I am the dean of
the College of Liberal Arts and.

Thank you Elaine I think that
there is hope in that and

what I want to do is a series of thank
yous one to Charlayne hundred for

being a wonderful Mark great
MODERATOR Thank you to our panelists for

carrying on such a wonderful
discussion on such important and

critical issues thank you.

Chris.

For being with the courageous woman
that she is for holding the banner.

Human rights under the condition
that she does thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.