[MUSIC PLAYING] FRED RASCOE: I feel like to do your job, you have to be an optimist. Are you an optimist? LINDSAY SCHUBINER: [LAUGHS] I think I wouldn't say I'm an optimist, but I would say that I have hope, right? And I think, for an organizer, it's almost malpractice to not have hope, because if you don't believe that things can change, why take action? [ROCK MUSIC] CHARLIE BENNETT: You are listening to WREK Atlanta, and this is Lost in the Stacks-- The Research Library Rock'n'Roll Radio Show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the studio with Marlee Givens and Fred Rascoe. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you're here for, we hope you dig it. MARLEE GIVENS: Our show today is called "The Toolkit for Confronting White Nationalism in Libraries." CHARLIE BENNETT: And we warned everyone last week that this would be a heavy one. FRED RASCOE: Oh, man, yeah, and it surely is. If you read the news about what's happening in libraries, with book bans, hate group protests, all that stuff, you may be having questions. MARLEE GIVENS: Questions like, are we going backwards in time? Have we made any political progress at all? FRED RASCOE: And those are fair questions. And if you're working in libraries or a user of libraries, you may also be asking yourself, is there anything I can do about it? MARLEE GIVENS: Well, to answer that question, we'll be talking to a representative from the Western State Center, which has published a toolkit on how libraries can confront threats posed by white nationalism. CHARLIE BENNETT: For instance, punching Nazis. MARLEE GIVENS: Well, that's not in the toolkit, but, you know, if the opportunity presents itself-- [LAUGHTER] FRED RASCOE: Our songs today are about protest, protecting freedom, actions and reactions. It's sad that we have to be on the lookout for white nationalism in 2023, but political gains of the past are not necessarily promises for the future, right? So let's start with a song about remembering that the fight for freedom is a long fight. From the soundtrack to the documentary film, Summer of Soul, "This is Why I Sing the Blues," by BB King right here on Lost in the Stacks. [BB KING, "WHY I SING THE BLUES"] [CHEERING, APPLAUSE] CHARLIE BENNETT: That was "Why I Sing the Blues" by BB King, and this is Lost in the Stacks. Today, we're talking about the Toolkit for Confronting White Nationalism in Libraries, released by the Western State Center earlier this year. Let's start by meeting our guest and finding out more about the Western State Center. LINDSAY SCHUBINER: My name is Lindsay Schubiner. I'm our Director of Programs at Western State Center. We are a 36-year-old civil rights organization based in the Pacific Northwest and Mountain states, and we are focused on incubating novel approaches to countering organized bigotry. And we work to draw lessons from our region to promote inclusive democracy at the national level. A lot of our work is about equipping local communities and democratic institutions with tools and resources and strategies to be more resilient in the face of anti-democracy movements and to work toward expanding civil rights and civil liberties in more effective and more connected ways. CHARLIE BENNETT: When did you join the center? I feel like there could be a lot of events that would have drawn you to that in the past 10 years. LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Yeah, I joined the center at the beginning of 2018, so it's been just over five years here, and I started as our momentum program director, working to build out our work focused on countering white nationalism. But I've been doing this work for over a decade in various different capacities. CHARLIE BENNETT: So you joined the center right before the toolkit Confronting White Nationalism in Schools came out. And now we're going to talk about this year's toolkit, Confronting White Nationalism in Libraries. Are those coming from the exact same place? Is one an adaption of the other? What's going on with those two toolkits? LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Yeah, that's a good connection to make. And the Confronting White Nationalism in Schools Toolkit was one of the first big projects I worked on when I came here with my fantastic coauthors, Jessica Acee and Nora Flanagan. And there's a lot of work that has been inspired by that initial Confronting White Nationalism in Schools Toolkit, including the Library Toolkit. When I think the Schools Toolkit really filled the need, right? There was a lot of-- there were a lot of impacts of white nationalism and other bigoted and anti-democracy movements happening in schools and not a lot of resources speaking directly to that. And so there was a ton of interest in it when it came out. And among the people interested was a group of librarians in our region, who reached out and said, this is so needed in libraries. And we've been working with them to build out this resource and are just really excited to have it out in the world now. FRED RASCOE: So this was ground up. Librarians came to the center and, having known about the Toolkit for Schools, said, hey, we need this for libraries as well. LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Yeah, absolutely. We were definitely seeing the impact on libraries in a lot of different ways. And it has only expanded since then in terms of our concerns about the impact of bigoted and anti-democracy movements on libraries, right? But at the time, we were seeing flyering from white nationalist groups in libraries. We were seeing sometimes white nationalist groups using library space to organize meetings and convene, people using libraries to send white nationalist messages, right? We were seeing things stuck in library books themselves, along with rallies and targeting of library programming, like the Drag Queen Story Hours that has been happening for some years now. And at this point, the increase in targeting of what is such an important community space and space for learning and access to broad information and, honestly, for participating in democratic processes too, right-- that has only been further targeted with book bans and legislation and bigoted and anti-democracy actors working to get onto library boards to undermine them from within. CHARLIE BENNETT: And I think there are some people who, when they hear "toolkit," they have a very different idea than what we're talking about. In academia and other industries or areas, a toolkit is essentially a document that frames a problem and then provides case studies for solutions. LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: And so let's go ahead and start by really digging down, what is the problem? When we talk about white nationalism, what's your definition of that movement? LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Yeah, white nationalism is a bigoted social movement that seeks to establish an all-white ethno state within the United States. And it's inherently anti-democracy. So that's why we see it working-- that's why we see these movements working to undermine democratic institutions, from local municipalities to libraries and schools. And also, that's why we see these movements using bigoted and even violent tactics, right? We've seen a huge rise in threats and harassment and political violence associated with a rise in white nationalism and other bigoted movements recently, because they don't see democratic processes which were meant to include everyone as a way to achieve their aims. MARLEE GIVENS: This is Lost in the Stacks, and we'll be back with more from Lindsay Schubiner about the Toolkit for Confronting White Nationalism in Libraries right after a music set. CHARLIE BENNETT: File this set under JC481.S476. [STIFF LITTLE FINGERS, "STATE OF EMERGENCY"] [GIL SCOTT-HERON, "FREE WILL"] My Lord. MARLEE GIVENS: You have been listening to "Free Will" by Gil Scott-Heron, and, before that, you heard "State of Emergency" by Stiff Little Fingers," songs about the realization that freedom is more fragile than it seems. [ROCK MUSIC] FRED RASCOE: This is Lost in the Stacks, and we're talking with Lindsay Schubiner of the Western State Center about their Toolkit for Confronting White Nationalism in Libraries. At the end of the last segment, we were talking about the tactics of white nationalism, so we begin this segment by diving further into that topic. CHARLIE BENNETT: You described two things or two kinds of actions when you were saying the rise of problems with white nationalism in libraries. And it struck me. Like, one was attacks on programming, attempts to repress what libraries are doing. But then also the thing you said about slipping messages into books, sort of recapitulating the internet in the physical space of the library, trying to repurpose library space, which I had not heard of before-- are those the two-- let's call them modes of attack that you all were trying to diagnose? Or is there more to it? LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Yeah, I think notes in library books, right-- that happens occasionally and I think is not as dominant a form of white nationalist engagement as protests on Drag Queen Story Hours. But I do think that we see actions to attack or undermine libraries from essentially both the outside and the inside, attempts to repurpose library space, like using meeting rooms and sort of taking over that space. Which is similar, I think, to that use of library books, to inside the library, also taking over leadership roles, which attempts to turn what is meant to be a space that offers open access to information to everyone in the community into something that serves only a certain group of people and restricted and bigoted political purposes, to direct book bans and attacks on programming and attempts from the outside to undermine. But the impact of both is similar, which is undermining a critical community and democratic institution. FRED RASCOE: And I think you've highlighted an important point for folks to realize. Say, take the Drag Queen Story Hour example. When you're talking about white nationalism, you will have folks in a community, perhaps, that say, I am not a white nationalist, but, gosh darn it, this Drag Queen Story Hour's got to go. And I think what this toolkit does is kind of set-- like, it ties together-- it's a resource that ties together the different threads of white nationalism to illustrate-- if you see this happening, this is part of that threat of white nationalism or anti-Black or anti-immigrant. It's all part of that same thread. LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Right, I think we see bigoted and anti-democracy movements as a big umbrella, and under that are white nationalist movements. But we also see other social movements that are maybe not as explicit as white nationalism in their aims and their bigotry but still are promoting anti-LGBTQ bigotry or anti-Blackness and using similar anti-democracy strategies, right? So I think something we saw during the insurrection on January 6 was white nationalists standing next to Oath Keepers, next to Proud Boys, next to people who saw what they were saying on the internet and that spoke to them and so they mobilized, people who were influenced by conspiracy theories, like QAnon or other conspiracy theories. We saw these people really standing shoulder to shoulder, and I think that was an example of the way that white nationalist ideas and the conspiracy theories that really serve as an accelerant for their ideology have been mainstreamed and are influencing much larger groups of people, many of whom would not necessarily identify as white nationalists but are still bringing bigotry into the public sphere and organizing politically against inclusive democratic institutions. CHARLIE BENNETT: So I think you've landed on one of the big philosophical knots that occur in the library, a place of free speech, a place for the dissemination of ideas, for free expression. And then that free expression sometimes includes conspiracy theories, hate speech, ideas that capture the isolated and the disempowered. So then the library has to confront the idea that it has to protect some speech, not disregard, but push away some-- create some kind of protections. Are you able to kind summarize that particular problem? LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Yeah, absolutely, and there' a whole section on free speech in the Library Toolkit because that's so core to-- that's such a core value for libraries and for the United States, right? And so an important piece of libraries' role is promoting free speech and free expression and access to ideas. And, at the same time, libraries are an institution that-- are institutions that have to make decisions about which books they hold, right? There's not enough room on the shelves for everything. And so I think libraries have always had the responsibility of curating based on their own internal policies and the needs of the community. And so I think it's important to recognize that and their role as educational institutions, which is about carrying information and books that are reliably sourced and that serve the broader education of the community. So I think, in general, we say that-- I mean, it's true that white nationalists have free speech, right? There's important reasons why, hopefully, that the libraries don't become a platform for that speech, because their core mission is to serve the entire community, and white nationalism is deeply exclusive. But all of us also have free speech, and we can speak up about our values. Libraries can speak up about our values. And community members who support libraries can share their values publicly, say what they believe about democracy and open access to information and how libraries fulfill a role of serving everyone in the community. And that is an important part of resetting norms to reject bigotry and exclusion. MARLEE GIVENS: This is Lost in the Stacks, and we'll talk more about confronting white nationalism in libraries on the left side of the hour. [ROCK MUSIC] [JOE GIDEON & THE SHARK, "JOHAN WAS A PAINTER AND ARSONIST"] JULIA FLANDERS: Hi I'm Julia Flanders making digital scholarship at the Northeastern University libraries and the new lab for text maps and networks. You're listening to Lost in the Stacks-- The Research Library Rock'n'Roll Radio Show on WREK Atlanta. (SINGING) Set the room on fire. Follow your heart's desire. Torch the place. You see all that's familiar to you dissolve, melt away-- CHARLIE BENNETT: Our show today is all about the Toolkit for Confronting White Nationalism in Libraries, published by the Western State Center. And as we've discussed today, the toolkit is a way to prepare for scenarios that could happen and have happened in many libraries. But preparing for these scenarios is only part of the solution for a library that is on guard from these kinds of attacks. To quote from the toolkit, "Many of the scenarios and strategies in this toolkit are reactive. They help us think about how to respond to a specific white nationalist threat once we've become aware of it. But in the urgency of responding to threatening situations, we cannot lose sight of the everyday racial justice work that is our community's best defense. In fact, we should proactively look for those opportunities as part of the important work that will strengthen us against attack while we further our goals of racially just libraries." As Adrienne Maree Brown says, "We move at the speed of trust, and building trust takes time." Let's think about action and reaction-- ooh, spoiler alert-- as we file this next set under HN64.H365. [YOUTH OF TODAY, "FLAME STILL BURNS"] Walk back! [CREEDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL, "DON'T LOOK NOW"] That was "Don't Look Now" by Creedence Clearwater Revival, and before that, "And the Same" by Fugazi-- action, reaction. And we started with "Flame Still Burns" by Youth of Today, songs about political actions, reactions, and inactions. [ROCK MUSIC] FRED RASCOE: We're back with our guest, Lindsay Schubiner of the Western State Center, here speaking with us about the Toolkit for Confronting White Nationalism in Libraries. The toolkit contains several scenarios of potential white nationalist activity to be aware of, and it also includes suggested actions and responses for many different library stakeholders, such as staff, admin, and the user community. So to begin this segment, we asked Lindsay to explain the importance of a unified response to white nationalist aggression from these different stakeholders. LINDSAY SCHUBINER: I think it's so important to recognize that what we're seeing in terms of the spread of conspiracy theories and anti-democracy mobilizations is that this is something that concerns all of us who believe in democracy and respect our neighbors, right? And so because we all have a stake in it, that means we also all have a role to play. And I think part of what we're trying to do with the Library Toolkit is recognize the importance of libraries as community institutions and also the diversity of ways that people who are part of library communities can take action, regardless of what role someone has. And that's true for every institution, right? If we look at we look at cities, sometimes it's people doing graffiti cleanup or in the transportation department who are going to see bigoted graffiti and notice that that's something that is having an impact on the community. So there's a role for everyone to play, and we try to be pretty specific about outlining what options different people have, whether it's a role of staff, who might be the first people to see something in the library, to document the incident with pictures or screenshots or preserve the material to do something about it. Or whether it's checking in with people who might have seen an incident or been affected by it or have roles in designing programming to promote the library's values or using their research skills, or whether it's administrators who can take a leadership role in determining what policies exist around curation of the library catalog or building clear partnerships with other leaders in the community and other community institutions. It's important that libraries not be isolated in managing the threat of bigoted and anti-democracy movements, because everyone has a role to play, and support from other community leaders and community institutions can be so important in determining what happens in that community as a whole, whether white nationalist groups see that as a place to put more energy into mobilizing or whether they see that the community has taken a strong values-based stance to reject bigotry. And that's important for libraries and for every local democratic institution. FRED RASCOE: I had an experience about a week and a half ago, where I was teaching an online class to the students in the Georgia Tech community and got Zoom bombed. It was the first time that that's ever happened to me-- horrible racial words just blowing up in the chat. I just had to abandon the meeting. It was awful. And it made me realize that I had not thought about actions that I would take if something like that happened. And I think the toolkit would have very much helped with it, and the toolkit is very much about the external actors that come into a library space. But here in Georgia and a lot of other states, we're dealing with that old horror story-- the call is coming from inside the house. There's lawmakers that want to kind of institute these things that white nationalist activist groups agitate for. We're talking about book bannings, talking about removing DEI programs. And that's not specifically what this toolkit is about, but I wonder if that's something that's on the radar of you or the Western State Center. LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Yeah, it absolutely is, and we have unfortunately seen example after example of bigoted actors or far-right actors looking to join school boards and schools that have libraries, library boards, and leadership for other institutions that are so important to communities. And so I think it's-- this issue is that it's such a significant scale now that it really requires all of us, right? It requires a whole-of-society approach. And so in the toolkit, there are things that individuals within libraries or in library communities can do and things that administrations can do, with the hope that it pushes library administrators and institutions as a whole to really proactively tackle this challenge and make decisions about and then do planning in advance, as you said, about how they're going to react if something happens. But I think there's also planning that communities have the option of doing to protect their local libraries if something like this does happen, because we've seen attempts to take over library boards from far-right and bigoted actors. But we've also seen communities push back and retake their libraries and can retake control of their libraries. And so I think it's important to tell those positive stories about how possible it is to mobilize and bring in support from a community and protect critical democratic and community institutions. So I think it's-- yeah, it's important to recognize all of those different aspects. CHARLIE BENNETT: You mentioned earlier that you felt like the toolkit already needed an update. What's going on from here towards the future? LINDSAY SCHUBINER: The challenges facing libraries are coming from so many different places these days, from legislatures to bigoted movements to sometimes their own boards, and that's because libraries are so important. And, for instance, the American Library Association recently said that, in 2022, it had seen the highest number of calls to ban books since it began tracking this data more than 20 years ago. And so I think we are only seeing, unfortunately, an escalation in challenges to libraries' core mission of serving all parts of their communities and with free access to information. And I think that we've seen an exciting response to the Library Toolkit so far, and we absolutely want to build on that and build more resources and more support for librarians and library staff and administrators and library communities that are committed to taking action to work for a more inclusive democracy. FRED RASCOE: Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us. LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciated the conversation. [ROCK MUSIC] MARLEE GIVENS: File this set under Z721.T48. [BUSH TETRAS, "STAND UP AND FIGHT"] [MACY GRAY, "WHITE MAN"] FRED RASCOE: That was "White Man" by Macy Gray, before that, "Stand Up and Fight" by the Bush Tetras, songs about being on alert for those who would take away your rights. [ROCK MUSIC] CHARLIE BENNETT: As we were wrapping up the interview with Lindsay, she added something important and optimistic about why right now, this moment, is such a crucial time to be engaged in the work of preserving democracy in the face of white nationalist agitators. And since we always like to end on an optimistic-- Fred. FRED RASCOE: Optimistic. CHARLIE BENNETT: "Always" is not the word here. Since recently, Fred has wanted to end on an optimistic note-- FRED RASCOE: Pretending-- you know, you've got to be the change. Or you got to visualize the change and-- CHARLIE BENNETT: Be the change you see in yourself. FRED RASCOE: --be the change. CHARLIE BENNETT: I hear you. FRED RASCOE: Yeah, visualize it first, right. Yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: OK. And since we always like to end on an optimistic note, let's play with that bit of audio from Lindsay to wrap up today's show. LINDSAY SCHUBINER: Truly, I think that's an important part of taking action at the moment in history that we're in, because I think that as we've seen deeply troubling increases in authoritarian movements and state-based legislation restricting rights, but the majority of Americans still support democracy and reject white nationalism. And the majority of people respect their neighbors and want to live in inclusive communities with strong relationships and with strong libraries, I truly believe. And so there's so much opportunity to work toward the future that we want to see, that there's every day an opportunity to push back, and many of those actions are successful. And so I think it's hard work, and it's a lot of work. But I think we absolutely can take action if we want to to defend democracy. CHARLIE BENNETT: And on that note, let's roll the credits. [ROCK MUSIC] MARLEE GIVENS: Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, written and produced by Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens. CHARLIE BENNETT: Legal counsel and a pair of brass knuckles that, Fred, are purely for decorative use-- FRED RASCOE: OK, if you say so. CHARLIE BENNETT: --were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. FRED RASCOE: Special thanks to Lindsay for being on the show, to the Western State Center for caring about the preservation of democracy, and thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening. MARLEE GIVENS: You can find us online at library.gatech.edu/lostinthestacks. You can find our recent episode, get to our podcast feed, and get in touch with us. CHARLIE BENNETT: Next week, we're going to Canada, to the Disability Archives Lab. MARLEE GIVENS: Mhm. FRED RASCOE: It's time for our last song today, and let's bring the music full circle. We started with a track from Summer of Soul, the documentary about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. And to keep up the note of optimism - I'm keeping it going, Charlie-- MARLEE GIVENS: Woo-hoo! CHARLIE BENNETT: I hear you-- FRED RASCOE: - we close with a performance from that festival, a song about a positive change. This is "It's Been a Change" by The Staple Singers. CHARLIE BENNETT: Hey. FRED RASCOE: Have a great weekend, everybody. [ROCK MUSIC] [THE STAPLE SINGERS, "IT'S BEEN A CHANGE"] (SINGING) Come on, now. Let's close this thing out. Yeah!