So I'm not sure what your issue is with any instant information since I'm here. Yes this time. Thank you very much. Thank you. Can you say thank you for coming here it's the crunch time of the semester I know how busy everybody is and. I was thinking we might have three people here so I'm a pro to see all of you and I think it will be acknowledged a number of the slides came from Tom Berewa who's a program director at N.S.F. and I saw a presentation he did he shared the slides with me so I picked some of those that I thought were useful and some are a little S.F. specific but but I think the principles can be generalized to any kind of proposal so I think they'll be be useful for us to look at I guess the first implicit message of this presentation is don't be shy about naming your proposal so I kind of hope there's some ability to warranty that deliver on that but I guess we can test that out over time we can design a project to see if in fact coming to this increases your probability of fun and that it will be background one of the core missions a research university like Georgia Tech is the production of new knowledge we are not just in the knowledge transmission business and research is a lot easier and it's a lot more fun if you have sufficient funding from an xterm will sponsor I had a colleague in grad school who did what he called a Diner's Club dissertation where he funded the whole thing out of his step pocket. I had N.S.F. support and I can tell you the. The comparative design of that made it very clear to me that the funding let you do a lot more things. What you're doing better and really made it a much more meaningful and enjoyable experience sponsored funding in sports salaries students travel and equipment and you all know that we continually get ratcheted down from state funding and at the institute level of the college level we have to look at. Something in sponsored bundle for diminishing state resources and it presents this year sponsored research is about forty percent of the total C.L.A. budget so and I would argue over the next five years going up so proposal writing proposal writing skills are going to be important are important today and getting more important. So this is from an anonymous N.S.F. program director and it actually says it better than I can but sums up this whole presentation a good proposal. Is a good idea. Well expressed with clear indication of methods for pursuing that idea of valuating the findings and making them known to all who need to know I wish I could have said it as clearly and succinctly as that. Not quite ten commandments of proposal writing first have a brilliant idea but. We're Georgia Tech. We all have brilliant ideas three four five a day. And like talk brilliant ideas are not cheap but. But they're kind of a first prerequisite but they really won't get you there in terms of funding so first time a brilliant idea but true for any read the grant proposal guidelines and that will tell you everything down to the font and margins to use but more much more importantly it will tell you the things you've got to address in the proposal. And actually I was working with Clarke I think last summer and and got very familiar with the N.S.F. grant proposal guide but any funding organisation is going to have very specific directions descriptions of what it is they're looking for that go everything from the minutiae of budgets and front types to general themes and issues they want to see addressed. With N.S.F. you have to address intellectual merit and broader impacts and I would talk a little bit about those and I think those apply to most any funding agency certainly intellectual merit but we'll talk about those in a little bit more but you have to not just sort of refer to them or have them implicit You need to explicitly to address those in your project summary upfront and then in sections of the proposal itself that some help. Writing the proposal we do so here is a tremendous resource Clark from public policy is folks who really understand see a lot of proposals get help from your students I have actually gotten tremendous help from my students and putting things together get help from your colleagues and looking at it so don't be the Lone Ranger that's probably not a recipe for success. So get help in proposal writing right to the right audience think about who's reading this don't just it's not a stream of Commons is stream of consciousness. This is not about you getting your ideas out on paper it's about somebody reading them reviewing them reacting positively please say yeah we're going to send you six million dollars because that was a great idea. Well expressed and all the rest of that. So think about the audience and write to them. And don't irritate the reviewers with thence type excessive jargon known. Acronyms and all kinds of jargon that the reviewers may or may. That would be on top of. It's kind of like a diving competition. You can. Best one know the rules of the competition. If it requires a back flip put in a back flip. Understand what the rules are what kinds of things are going to ring the bell with sponsors and reviewers What are the things that are going to trigger a positive response in the reviewers and how do you get high marks learn how the competition is organized is there a pretty proposal a letter of intent as that up to around kind of thing where you do a pretty proposal and a final like the recent. Every seed proposals. Does it go to just extra reviewers does it go to a panel review understand the process and then think about those audiences so you can gear your proposal best to those do your best. You know I'm terrible about typos anybody even gets an email from me probably knows that I'm like the king of typos. I need somebody to prove my stuff and really clean that mess up because it looks people are not going to put much weight to the substance and realize how your place is going to do to some extent depends on how your competitors do but I actually wouldn't put too much emphasis on that the best we can do is the best we can do and if you give it your best shot. You can walk away and if somebody else has much more brilliant ideas that are expressed and better executed. I'm always pleased if I think I've got the best thing submitted that I can do and and I can tell you I have written a lot of losers. So let me say it while the title of his is how do I have a separate proposal on how to write a losing proposal and we're going to do that next week but I have written a slew of losers and. I learned from some of those experiences I was actually very angry at some of those experiences and I was hurt. You have a lot of experience reactions to that how you were in the rules for N.S.F. compters And again this is N.S.F. specific but I think that this applies to Robert Wood Johnson or Department of Energy or national balance of the arts whoever you might be a deal in Georgia D.O.T. read and follow the rules in whatever their proposal guide is and I can tell you the N.S.F. is actually very good very specific gives you lots of helpful information that you want to fall and fall if it's a special program like the F. receive competition or we're doing something out of the you know we proposal at this point. Read the instructions or special announcements that are specific to that particular call and that particular solicitation and don't be shy to contract contact the relevant program officer the folks at the N.S.F. are quite good at giving you some general feedback. Good to get to know them. Maybe put a wound or two page idea piece in front of them so you know is this something you'd be interested in and certainly can do that with. A Robert Wood Johnson or a number of the foundation funding sources as well and I see John in here a minute ago John when just did a one pager with with kind of an idea first had a meeting with them they seem to be interested me an idea and then put in basically a one page abstract that can lead to a much larger effort later so good to sort of not throw in the thirty page full blown completely finished proposal. And the program offices you know I don't care about that. So you've done a lot of work that you might have done a little spadework in the front end to make sure that you were on the right track or on a reason. Well track at least. So the term and one of the best funding sources not always that S.F. It's not always a public agency might be Robert Wood Johnson might be knight or might be and I could be a whole set of different folks figure out who might be interested in your topic and give yourself plenty of time check them out been doing that we've been relaxing through a little effort here over the last two weeks or so which is insane. But I'll give you a schedule in a minute but I did a proposal with a big group that went in. I think in February and we started work on it. Ten months beforehand and there was a lot of group meetings a lot of discussion and a lot of draps the one Charkha not working on were on draft fourteen of our section as of today don't figure. Unless you're awfully awfully good that you're going to dash it at will in the evening and send it in and the check will come back and give yourself plenty of time again understand the ground rules interesting to look at prior awards from whoever your funding sources see what they've been funding. What did they fund last year. This kind of a big clue about what they're interested it and think about the evaluation procedures understand the rules of the game again talk with the program officer also talk with your chair your center director or your research office and again. Take time to do that I have folks who come in and say you know I'm putting out this proposal it's going at four thirty. Could you look at it and give me some feedback. Yeah. Let me give you some feedback about that. What would you would you want mustard on that or what I mean takes time. Your chair O.S.T.P. the office here. Is going to have other priorities and your proposal that has to go out tomorrow if I get it at three forty five is probably not going to get the review it deserves. So think a little bit about time and who you want to get some feedback from and ask your colleagues for copies of wedding proposals. Mark Twain says it's hard to put up with the annoyance of a good example look at some things that and you might even look at some of the losers. I think some of the losers I have may have been better than some of the winners. And they just got the wrong. Review crowd. But look at some proposals that your colleagues have when most folks in the College of Architecture and Georgia Tech are more than willing to share those with you and can give you a lot of useful insights into how you might attack a problem and how you might structure a proposal. Have an out of body experience could be in you for a minute and try to be the reviewer think about what is the reviewer want to see and what questions are they going to ask about the proposal and then write the answers to those right so try to anticipate what it's going to take to make to make it successful with the reviewers make sure it's technically correct. Both them to the level of writing and math pretty bad to blow a decimal place sometimes doesn't give the reviewers a lot of confidence that you're talking about good tools and it's really megajoules not really probably where you want to be but also technically correct in terms of the approaches if you are using statistics. You may not want to undermine your credibility by misusing those be excited cited for the topic and follow whatever guidelines. There are for your particular proposal Faslane heaven forbid government. Grants that go which is kind of a trainwreck. But most NASA and others all have their own websites that you submit through rather than just mailing in thirty hard copies these days so. Think like that out of body experience think like the reviewers the external reviewers the N.S.F. does a mail out they tend to be pretty specialized they're going to really be into the details and the technical matters and then if there's a separate panel review they will be more general us and will have broader views of the topic and of how it fits into sort of the greater body of scientific knowledge generation and program officers think of them as investors who are trying to get bang for their buck they've got they're doing reverse alchemy. They've got gold and they want to turn it into interesting results basic research or applied research is going to vary a little bit across different funding agencies but basically they've got funds. We'd like to be good. Given that the legislature can't seem to find any or enough forces of light and they want to turn those into some kind of meaningful results and they want to think about bang for the bucks. They've got funds to invest. They look at a range of different options they can invest in any one of us and they want to think about it as a portfolio. What are they going to get back from those fifteen or twenty projects that they might invest in that's going to really increase their portfolio of knowledge and new knowledge generation so this is maybe a little too cute but bang for the but you know how much new knowledge do I get per dollar of investment in this particular proposal and you want to make it clear that investing in your proposal is a smarter investment. Then. Mortgage backed securities. For example. So what is bang for the buck. If you're a program officer or funding significant contributions to general scientific understanding. Does what comes out of this proposal kind of push the scientific domain forward what theoretical understanding of the expansion of specific knowledge so do I. That could tribute some general theoretical knowledge oftentimes in our proposals at Georgia Tech do I create some new software tools like create new approaches that could be translated into software tools do I create new data that will help policymakers and decision makers and how am I going to disseminate the results both in publications but oftentimes to targeted Starke stock stakeholder groups how am I going to get the results of this research to people that know about it and scholarly writing is one and agencies care about that is that cares a lot about that but they also care about how do you touch and shape stakeholder groups directly and there are a lot more direct channels now than just putting stuff out there in referee publications I'm certainly not here to say that's not important but sometimes you have to have more innovative ways websites stakeholder meetings advisory groups where you push the stuff but interaction with professional groups where you get the results to people who need to know and can use what you've found and as academics are usually terrible about that we do our thing we write it up in some obscure journal. And we're done. We're chasing the next project guilty and sometimes don't even write it up just chasing the next project beforehand and pretty secure depending on the funding agency. There will be a lot of examination of hair carefully and how effectively you plan to. Emanate your results and what kind of impact that's going to have on some practice community that you're interested in S.F. What we talked briefly about there are two criteria that I think you'll find something similar in a lot of organizations obviously read whatever they're there. Grant guidelines are but and if uses too broad categories intellectual merit and broader impacts and and when you write the little one page abstract and if you want to have a section on each of those here is my intellectual merit but I've got a lot of broader impacts not probably a winner. You know actual. The actual merit is how important is it to advancing knowledge and understanding with its own in its own field and you know we can kind of define feels very narrowly like building construction or just been more land use planning. So how important is a bad thing. Now it's in that area and this is not a double blind review your name your resume your track record is stacked on it and somebody you don't get along with you might get some retribution there but they're going to look at who you are and what you've done so is the proposer or the team qualified to do the project and that's going to look at your whole body of work to they're going to look at your whole body of work to see if that's the case does the proposed activity suggest or explore creative original and this is of N.S.F. buzzword potentially transformative concepts transformative is about every three years the N.S.F. word does you or they want transformative research they don't want normal science that just sort of adds two or three little bits of new knowledge they want something that's going to be the lever that rocks the world. They want transformative research and to tell you the truth. It's pretty hard to do that. I mean not many of us have come up with the theory of plate tectonics. But something that transforms the way we see the. World. They're going to be all over it and you maybe want to dress your as up as transformative even if it is maybe not rocking the world. How well conceived an organized is the activity and you have sufficient resources both what you're asking for and the infrastructure of the organization you're with do you have the. The resources both hardware software students physical space and the money you're getting from them in any match that might be coming from your institution to actually pull off what you say you're going to do. I focus at the G.I.'s I don't know that I sometimes say My job is to over promise them there is the liver it. That's true but you don't necessarily want to make that. Too much explicit in the proposal that you're over promising. And so broader impacts. How well does this advance discovery understanding and teaching training and learning how does the research like we talk about universities aid back into the classroom and to to learning how does that broaden participation of under-represented groups by gender ethnicity. Maybe Geographic. How's it going to the infrastructure for research is going to bring new facilities networks partnerships to bear and again are you going to get it out to the right scientific and technological communities and so one of the benefits to society of doing this so you know is it a good idea is intellectual merit and how is it going to affect everything from diversity to the infrastructure of research to impact policy or sort of the broader impacts that you want to convey and explicitly address and talk about both in the front page abstract as well as in more detail in the narrative part of the proposal. I love this the martini glass analogy I think Bill and I were sitting together when we saw this and and I wish I had thought of it but the notion that a good proposal starts with kind of a general theoretical framework that sets the stage for what the the issues are and I'm terrible at this because I'm focused on what the little things I deal with are but sort of a broader context and then you narrow that down to the method you're going to use to answer that question that is set in some large larger theoretical framework and then after you get those results you broaden it back out to that framework so you want to kind of start broad get very specific very detailed and then generalized back to the larger area and then just kind of a biographical information about investigators and a budget and budget justification that really can match up with what you're doing with this notion of the you know the martini glass I thought was interesting and I'm pretty good at the stem. Not so great to the glass of the base and maybe I can do the stem in the base sometime but I'm terrible at the top end of that so proposals kind of fail because maybe they don't have a sound theoretical framework and poorly related to the related. This is one place I use students a lot. They're much more facile than I am and much more up to date on the literature and can kind of chew that up in much more effective ways than I can get to integrate it and do some things but students can kind of be the front end of that I have found. Sometimes they have lousy kind of methods that you have a great idea and you're your techniques for implementing that are clearly not going to cut it and not going to answer the question and then sometimes you really have a mismatch where you get a theoretical framework and the research plans but they don't sort of quite hang together and sort of three ways too. To write a loser. I think there are others actually of probably and some others so timelines. This is actually a pretty aggressive timelines. Several perspectives one or two page thing that you can share around kick around over once with some of your colleagues and maybe with the agency you're looking to get funding from three weeks three months ahead of time before the deadline. Like I said I worked on one where we had ten months. Of time and we haven't got the reviews where we made the pretty proposal we have seen the reviews of the powerful pose we get a first draft at a month ahead of time again I think these are the short end. If anything. Two weeks before to get those comments from your colleagues your friends your students and rework your draft give a week to deal with the budget stuff and a lot of times we kind of toss the stuff in twenty four hours and expect they're going to go through it and do all their magic. And then afterwards if you haven't heard anything in like five months. Sort of what happened to my proposal. You know we spent three months working on it and I like to get some feedback but politely I guess is the operative word. So the basic that I would summarize or find a topic that's interesting to you and to others. A lot of us take topics that are interesting to us and sort of assume anybody else cares find one that's interesting to you and to others find a sponsor who's interested in your topic you don't want to send the wrong or right proposal to the wrong sponsor build yourself a track record of smaller successful projects like say the G.T.A. have small grant proposals where you can get five to ten or fifteen thousand dollars you can build a prototype doing a first investigation maybe get a publication out of it. So you have to build a track record of successful projects so you can kind of move up the food chain in. And into larger and more complex projects but you have to show that you can if you're in this game you know how to do it be flexible. If you only investigate and study left handed solar powered widgets. And nobody's interested in left handed solar power widgets. You might want to stop beating your head against the wall and look at you know right handed solar powered widgets or right handed coal powered something so be flexible. You know want to be quite as flexible as you don't want to be like a development officer who What's the saying shoot anything that flies a claim anything that falls you know want to be quite that flexible but you also don't want to be so narrow that you only do this. And if nobody is funding that I think about maybe doing something different and be persistent Be persistent and say it over again and be persistent and keep doing it until your and be persistent. So there's a limited warranty as I promised you with this. If you follow these guidelines. They can help you write a winning proposal if the proposal is not successful after following these guidelines you have the irrevocable right for a do over and you can read the reviewers comments rewrite the proposal and resubmit it to the same sponsor or another. And persistence will prevail so that is the limited warranty that I have provided for you for this activity I hope some of that was useful a lot of you are pretty experienced researchers this may be all sort of. Pretty general and you're already knew it. We've got a great panel who is going to answer questions and have some discussions with you first here am I right. Dr Stephen Springle professor of industrial design and and Applied Physiology and interim chair of the School of Industrial Design also a lab director in a rehabilitation Engineering and Applied Research will. He's both a biomedical engineer and a physical therapist he had back problems a little while ago. DOCTOR sprinkles interest bridge from biomechanics wheelchair seating standardise wheelchair cushion and support surface testing and assistive technology design. As well as posture and pressure all sort of prevention which I thought you had that tattooed on your shoulder. We also have one of the pioneers of A.B.C. and CAD and possibly the inventor of B M developed research in three D. modeling and early parametric modeling systems as early as the one nine hundred seventy S. his cutting edge work in both computer science and architecture He's a professor of architecture and computing and the director of the College of architects new established digital building laboratory. And an amazing expert in the energy arena. I have learned over the last couple weeks and research corded in a school building construction specializes in grant proposals and editing scholarly work and she's had some interactions with her on a couple proposal she's fantastic. She's a doctoral student in sociology and I think her comps are this week two weeks out they've got plenty of time. No problem. Sociology of science here at Georgia Tech. She has an M.S. from Georgia Tech and an M.B.A. from Georgia State and a B.A. from Penn State. So with that questions. Yes. Retirement job. You know what your job. But your job title. Same You want to cut Steve also used to be the director of course no one would say your research for one thing or quote one of the Libyan people. You're going to know and left me standing for in my opinion. Kirby precisely on the best bet is to do the first thing you do is a very patient really just because you are complicated and for my suggestion is that he does what he could if you proposal with your payment for her annual review after that for you get publications because it you know having reviewed it for a motion. That's the most one. My suggestion will be here and I would think that's probably somewhere on the order of and I research scientists one level maybe ten percent of your time and I would think that goes up as you become up to a senior and a principal if you're a principal I would think you're doing proposals. You're probably working seventy five hours a week and you're probably doing proposal three quarters of that time I mean that's what I'm saying. But what's the principal research scientist at forklift truck others. That's a big i did your part. Whether I could get a lot a lot. A lot of that collaboration with some of the projects that we have in our section we have twenty in our section we have built are a lot of this is a large part of a very good example of that leader or part of next year. This is your research while that's where those part of the. The first thing is not reading the requests from those in the nation carefully and I think about this idea of you know you can have a lot of brilliant ideas but if you don't follow the rules. No one will fund them and I think when you're talking about a lot of agencies particularly in that the volume of calls that they were seen is that they're looking for reasons to not read them because there are so many so if you don't follow the guidelines. It's not going to get the proper people to read it so I think that that's the first thing I think just to make sure that you know that you're following rules from simple things from font size to margin size to making sure that you're reading all of the people in the US and that you can even submit a proposal that sounds sort of simple but a lot of funding agencies have strict guidelines on how many proposals they can receive from an institution for example sometimes Georgia Tech is only permitted to submit one or two for the whole institution and those kinds of things. So I think that that's the key thing is to just read it very carefully and and to make sure that you have something to offer them that that they like us as a first step but they follow the rules and don't give them reason to not just press the little bit of everything for us in this or that I did feel a little bit like free so we're going to take basically did during the sponsors call the regular viewers that is that going to be. Doesn't seem to be a very viable are probably aware of the Foundation which is where it would be for everyone. Everyone together or for various work for every Right right here. Exactly. You can read an account and tell them specifically what your research interests are whether you're interested in looking at federal agencies local government agencies foundations industry. You can customize a profile that fits in line with what your particular research interests are what have an agency even a great geographical scope if you're looking at doing international research and they'll send you updates that will lead it to your particular research interest. So there's lots of good sources like the things you write for Russia the other thing is this program director that's where the work. You only think of a lot of these people like that in American history and here you get the U.S. military divide that. So you have to have all of the possible forces. You know the range and one thing that we've kicked around a little bit with the associate vice president for research and I don't think this is operable yet but I think I'm going to push the would be here is to look at the proposals that go out from Georgia Tech and through mine that as a data source and obviously you'd want to go to that and find the ones that are out and see who our colleagues here are writing proposals to in the area that we're interested in so accessing the proposals that go out and or get funded we may only be able to get access to the ones that are actually funded but to use that as a source and kind about a finder to see what what agencies what organizations what bad nations are funding what kind of stuff because we can actually get the P.I.A.'s and the project titles and see where they're going. I don't think that that's up and running yet but we have kicked around the world a little as well. Notice the way. You know but there are also multidisciplinary groups on campus. There's the data group the deals with aging there's the Strategic Energy Initiative. There are groups and sort of networking with those established groups at Georgia Tech will help you both find who else is doing things but we have two potential sponsors and funding sources as well as. Just looking to sponsor their website or training to courses just for you know members workshop called Finding and the need to use and it's a major funding source for me usually for four years I have run into indemnity many times which basically says that we're sort of going to guarantee half of something goes haywire the state of Georgia is going to stand behind it. That's kind of a usual problem there. Even some federal funding agencies I believe it's federal highway that we've had to turn down things because of that I know I have seen projects where the that's negotiated out and work that there's also typically intellectual property who owns the results and some of that are too pretty. When stumbling blocks the indemnity one is particularly hard to to to get a rabbi because the state of Georgia can't really and then the sponsor we've managed to get some to back off on that historically but it's the one of the common stumbling blocks that you can count on almost every time along with intellectual property things that are all things that are here military and that are in use or were and are often less likely voters but there's also pushing the sponsor to see if you can get them to recognize that that's something we can't really make go shade on and see if they can't. Because what they're going to send you is their block standard contract and it's got some indemnity cause in it and you know the lawyers are looking at this particular project this is their standard boilerplate and often if you have got adequate inside the company they can break that out of the standard contract and work for the contractor I mean this is the way that they run things over there and people assigned particular money. Here's what you know what this is a closet we've not even got you need you don't want to think about the timing right. This proposal is going to be much room for flexibility. Whereas with other systems. So they can. I could play with especially if the issues arise with you I suspect that many of them don't have a track record or history for us to know that very easily that there might be a few but but most of the folks who are that would be a problem would be their first time dealing with Georgia Tech and and I doubt the I know I wouldn't and I doubt that O. S. he would know it going in because it's sort of a new a new entity and we discover the payment things in our first rodeo and there's a couple just do a lot of interest in this two years. So those are things that are better than he has done since I have you lot of company and work right here with us. For missions just start or payment or. Like. Yeah sort of the money makes me feel less formal or informal process is very flexible or hands free. That is often very little what it really seems from the surface sign ours or is that when we go to the mat. Like go around the block and I think both are you know pretty good choice because they work all over again a lot of us are aware that look problem of having it's always been done there's always questions about the local property those like you like they're putting a roadblock. Let me try to find out what they don't want us there so they know what you're doing you find one more willing that is a very good one in my opinion there are only a very you know if they don't do that and but they are idiosyncratic here if you want to very selective very far it's always so as justification. When you know abstract might be another section but that one difference. Were there seems to be partly arbitrary and so on and off for one person. There are some pretty easily. Now we have to go over a bill Lou I don't believe you got a first or violent movies to chase and we don't really get to work with Everywhere I go with him for two years explains and it was just real he said I think he's still here. I don't write process I think they are just I do what I write you first. And I get very very you know he misspelled the word everything consists of that book he wrote a bunch of hours that he's probably Now that's really the letter that they're forced out of we've got to spell it right. I have got typos wondering what you are going through for yourself right away not paying attention to your name but rather what I really hear here along with something that. And then you know you can write that up. Maybe we publish something once and now we get some peer review that you said Pretty good way to do it and now we say OK now I'm going to do it for free without caps. We've shown proof concept and now we're across and provided by fine but we're already kind of these things that we know that we can do with this life and so I think you're right if you want to have done some of the work but I would say if you're holding your miniature and then look at kind of floating out across a vigorous very dark place let's say. I started this project. Well I think I've ever actually just yet but is there also a kind of special initiative. If you are so here has something from the Strategic Energy Institute or the special call and you put in proposals and those got funded at a bigger scale they're focused research for things to focus research proposal. I think those are now thirty thousand a year from every two years but it's for a crank up of your area and I think it was the vice president was the C.E.O. of those years. If those then go forward into a much bigger thing like a science and technology center in your city with a feel for expertise from one of those for you. So do look for funding kind of things and there are three of them right there that we can come up with about. But wait right here. I just have to break into that morsel of yours on that good old boys club members to go and it was twenty years ago but you know you got a car think about it that they're going to be the ones you're sitting on the camels and get the extra you know you get your shows on you're very good. You're working. I'm not working for the other girls on your side. My god i'm so you know you want to get your brother or your opinion back be right back. Remember they may also be the people who are doing your motion or every. So you know there's a reviewer will be reviewing your career. Doc. Well so in your area because they're going to probably see your stuff. The way you are you know you say to be persistent in the first conjunct center that you should apply for a friend plan get it if you if you don't miss a fail the first time you don't see a mistake from the first so you submit let's say five times because four times already failed to find the fifth time it was sensible. What's the most creative way that you seen the hospital for three witnesses. Yes you're right that's great advice I have taken the recycle shop. I forgot that there's a lot of work going to be very very good conversation maybe not in this format but if you want to bring up your writing or somehow that.