Ladies and gentleman.

Let's join me and
giving a strong Georgia Tech.

Welcome to Mr Raymond Baker thank

you thank you Carl.

And good afternoon ladies and

gentlemen I'm delighted to be here back
on the Georgia Tech campus as I've had

the opportunity to be a number of times
it's always a great thrill Georgia Tech's

a fantastic institution I enjoyed
every minute I was a Georgia.

We did have Saturday classes you
don't have Saturday classes do you.

We had Saturday class
that we didn't enjoy but

other than that Georgia Tech was great
fun and a superb learning experience.

Let me elaborate a bit more all on

where I'm coming from after I
finished graduate school at Harvard.

I taught business management at
the University of New Hampshire.

While I was thinking about what did I want
to do with my life and I decided to get

a a taste of international business
without making any sort of long

range commitment to it just decided to
get a taste of international business.

I made application to two hundred
companies in the United States.

I got offers to go to Iran Nigeria and
Brazil.

I chose Nigeria because it was
a newly independent country it was

English speaking and I could walk off the
airplane and start managing a business.

After two years of running a company for

my employer I decided I could do on
my own what I was doing for them.

I came back to going to states.

Stablish my own company got engaged and
returned to Nigeria and

opened my own office.

The first two years were a great struggle.

But I finally started buying small and
medium size.

Companies that I could afford to buy.

I made my biggest acquisitions in
the midst of the Nigerian Civil War

that's the be after a conflict
when other people who were

much smarter than me were selling
out I was buying their businesses.

I came out at the end of the Civil War
with two manufacturing companies and

a trucking business and
a financial holding company and

consulting practice on the side and
it was all great fun.

We borrowed the we were doing leveraged
buyouts before they were called leveraged

buyouts borrowed a lot of money and
expanded my businesses and

had a ball do it at least.

I had a ball doing it up until the mid
one nine hundred seventy S. And

by that time Nigeria was becoming so
corrupt that it wasn't a whole lot of fun.

So my wife and I and two young
children moved back to the States.

I set up a trading company and

did business all over the rest
of the developing world for

another twenty years retained some
of my interest in Nigeria and

indeed sold my last investment
in Nigeria only three years ago.

But after thirty five years in
business fifteen in Nigeria and

twenty doing business all
over the developed world.

I realized that I had
seen more corruption and

more money laundering and
more financial crime and

more tax evasion then any one
person should see in a lifetime.

And so I decided to say what I had to
say about this spot Knobloch I said wade

into the think tank world as a guest
scholar at the Brookings Institution.

Wrote a book on this subject matter and

then established global financial
integrity to continue researching and

addressing the problems
that we are focused all.

Now my experiences are very unique and

and quite different from
the experiences of most people.

You've had some some powerful
speakers in this series.

I guess Al Gore has spoken
Warren Buffett has spoken so

I've tried to figure out what can I say
to you that might be might be meaningful.

I'm going to set an ambitious
objectives here.

I'm going to try to convey
something to you that I

hope you will think about for
the rest of your lives.

Any quality.

Global inequality.

What you have here are two
bar charts depicting

the two usual ways of
measuring global income.

One is based on purchasing
power parity and

the other one on currency exchange rates
currency exchange rates means what you

can get when you go to a bank and
change money.

Purchasing power parity means what
that local country currency will buy

in the local market two different
ways of measuring global income.

Each color in these bar charts represents
twenty percent of the world's population.

Look at how much of global income
flows to the top twenty percent.

And how little of global income
is available to the bottom eighty

percent of the world's population.

We're talking about seventy to ninety
percent of global income accruing to

the top twenty percent leaving only ten
to thirty percent of global income for

the bottom eighty percent
of the world's population.

Now.

Now.

You may have seen.

Some articles lately saying
that poverty is declining and

this does appear to be correct.

Poverty of the poorest people
living on one to two dollars a day

seems to be moderate.

However inequality is not moderating
the disparity between rich and

poor by every available
analysis is in fact whitening

not only in the developing countries but
also in the Western countries and

indeed between Western countries and
other countries also.

OK you might think.

Those at the bottom of the income scale
they are educated they live in countries.

The environmental conditions in those
countries are are appallingly tough.

None of this is is my responsibility.

None of this is our responsibility.

Well that's not quite right.

Let me explain a little
bit what I mean by this.

In OUR think tank.

We study the flow of illicit money
out of developing countries.

How much flows out of developing
countries into the richer world.

This is the reality with which we deal.

For the last three years for which data is
available two thousand and seven eight and

nine illicitly generated
money coming out of

poor countries into richer
countries we estimate at about

has averaged about a trillion dollars
a year a trillion dollars a year.

Of illicitly generating money.

Generated money coming out of poor
countries into richer countries.

Compare this to foreign aid.

We like to think that we are a generous
people giving away foreign aid

to poor countries.

In our analysis looking at one
hundred twenty billion dollars a year

that foreign aid has been
running in recent years.

In our analysis the illicit
outflow of money

is about eight to ten times the total
amount of foreign aid flowing into

the poor countries there is no
way to make this formula work for

anyone rich or
poor this phenomenon undermines

much of what we're trying to
accomplish in the foreign aid agenda.

This money flows out through
three mean corrupt criminal and

commercially tax evader the corrupt
component is bribery and

theft by government officials.

The criminal component is drug
trading in human trafficking and

racketeering and counterfeiting and
contraband and so

forth that has exploded over
the last quarter century.

The commercial component is
commercial tax evasion in which

we in the Western countries
are certainly very much involved.

Now a lot of people think this
phenomenon is primarily about corruption

in those corrupt countries over there.

I mean our analysis the corrupt component

the component that stems from bribery and
theft by government officials and

remember I'm talking about the cross
border flow of money here.

The corrupt component is about
three percent of the global So

the criminal component is about
thirty to thirty five percent of the.

Local total.

And the commercially
tax of aiding component

is about sixty to sixty five
percent of the global total

that's the that's the part of
this problem in which Western.

A companies and
indeed local entrepreneurs are involved

the commercial component
is by far the largest.

In our analysis this reality is the most

damaging economic condition
hurting the global poor

it drains hard currency reserves
heightens inflation reduces tax

collection cancels investment and
undermines free trade.

Nothing in our judgment is so damaging
to the developing countries as this

money pouring out of the poor
countries into our richer economies.

OK you might think well that's still not
our responsibility we can't help it if.

Those countries want to deposit
their money into into our richer.

Economies we can't help that but

that's you know it's still
not our responsibility.

Well that also is not quite correct.

We have created a global
shadow financial system.

Comprising a number of elements.

Tax havens are a principal
part of this system.

Tax savings are places where
you can set up an entity and

then you can channel revenues and
profits through those entities and

they will pay little or no taxes on those
revenues flowing through the taxation.

When I started out in business in
the beginning of the I sixty's there

were four or five tax havens around
the world today there are more than sixty.

This is been a burgeoning phenomena
with tax havens being established

all over the globe.

Most of these tax havens also
function as secrecy jurisdictions

what that means is they have
the infrastructure of lawyers and

bankers and the Calcuttans who can set up
disguised corporations behind nominees and

trustees such that no one knows who
are the real owners of the business.

They they are unknow as to who owns it.

There are many NS and millions of
such entities around the world now

disguised corporations are a feature
of the global shadow financial system.

Anonymous trust accounts are part
of the structure that is a trust

account where whoever has
the established the trust is unknown.

It's hidden behind nominees and trustees

fake foundations are part
of this structure.

You can create a charitable foundation.

You can loan you can.

You can donate money to this charitable
foundation and then you can designate

yourself as the beneficiary of the charity
of that foundation paying no taxes.

Anywhere all the way this is
this is a particular feature

in Liechtenstein and
in Panama in the use of the structure

false documentation is used
in all sorts of trade in

capital transactions felts
pricing in imports and

exports is by far the biggest
part of the structure.

It accounts for the fact that
sixty to sixty five percent of

the cross border flow illicitly generating
money stems from tax evasion that you can

falsify the price of what you're importing
or the price of what you're exploiting and

shift money across borders in violations
of the laws of the country in question

and then there are various money
laundering techniques that can.

Can be utilized for special purposes.

And finally there are a whole left

in the laws of Western countries that
facilitate the movement of money.

Frew this shadow financial system and
ultimately into our Western economies.

For example in the United States.

It remains legal to bring from
abroad proceeds generated criminally

from handling stolen property and
counterfeiting and contraband and

credit for a lot and environmental crimes
and all forms of tax of aiding money.

And so forth that can be brought
legally into the United States

various other countries have
other loopholes in their laws.

Now this system.

Was developed primarily over
the past fifty years or so.

As I said there were only a handful of
tax savings at the beginning of that I

sixties.

But the one nine hundred sixty S. were the
decade when the development of this system

took off in earnest for two reasons one.

It was the decade of decolonization.

And two it was the decade when
multinational corporations

started planting their flags
all across the planet.

In respect to decolonization
a lot of the economic and.

Political elites in these newly
independent countries wanted to

take their money out by
any means possible and

we in the West service that desire with
a great deal of energy and creativity

helping that slight capital move out of
poor countries into our Western economies.

The spread of multinational
corporations is another reason for

the growth of the system with
many corporations utilizing

tax evading aggressive tax
avoidance techniques and

in some cases money laundering
techniques to shift money.

Abroad.

This system was created
primarily to move flight

capital out of poor countries capital
that wanted to flee from those countries.

And tax evading money across borders and

this structure performs that task very
effectively and very efficiently.

It does exactly what
it was designed to do.

OK well you might think that
this is the way the world works.

This is too big a problem to
solve there's nothing we can.

We can do about this.

We just have to live with this reality.

Well that also is not quite right.

We can indeed curtail the illicit

money that comes out of the poor countries
and curtail is the operative word.

We should not be trying to stop this which
would require draconian measures but

curtailing it can be accomplished.

And I want to address this question
all on two levels one the practical.

And secondly the philosophical or
intellectual level.

First of all.

Practical level.

We can get rid of each of these elements
of the global shadow financial system

with some pretty straightforward measures.

Tax havens weekend we can advise tax
havens such as the Cayman Islands and

Jersey and Guernsey and
indeed the state of Delaware and.

And other such places that sorry you
cannot handle the proceeds coming in and

out of there unless you can demonstrate
that the procured amount of taxes have

been paid on those proceeds flowing in and
out.

Secondly disguised corporations
which are a big part of this.

This is particularly easy to solve.

You can set up a disguise
corporation if you want to but

then we can require financial institutions
to know who are the natural person so

that own every account in there by us.

Doesn't do you any good to have
a disguise Corp If your bank tells you.

We have to know who are the natural
persons that own the account.

There's a huge effort underway
to get this kind of information

required in all countries of the world.

Getting rid of disguised
corporations is is a no brainer.

This is not difficult.

To do.

The same thing is true of anonymous
trust accounts and fake foundations

falsified pricing in imports and
exports is more

difficult to curtail But as I was talking
with some students earlier today.

It can be it can be done
with some of the global

techniques for
one one of these techniques is

world market pricing data that is
becoming increasingly available all.

A lot.

So that customs officials and

ports officials in developing countries
with an i Pad can access immediately.

What is the normal world market price for
this item that we're sitting here.

And if you are looking at
the the item in the invoice and

you see that it is substantially
out of line you can question why

this kind of data is becoming available.

And the money laundering.

Is being we are attempting to
curtail it not very effectively yet

but the the global anti money laundering

organization called
the Financial Action Task Force.

Just last month.

Designated or
indicated that from henceforward.

Countries that adopt anti money laundering
policies should make tax evasion

a criminal offense under
their statutes should be what

is called a predicate offense for a money
laundering charge so that is progress.

And then finally the loopholes
that are left in western laws

we need to harmonize and the money
laundering regulations among countries so

that we close some of these loopholes.

None of this is rocket science.

All of these techniques that are necessary
to curtail the flow of illicitly

generated money out of developing
countries are pretty straightforward.

It is it is not that difficult.

Technically to accomplish this.

It is a matter of political will.

I work every day on building
the political will to address

the curtailment of these kinds of flows.

OK second.

That was the practical level second.

Let's address this own the intellectual or

philosophical level and
first of all let me.

Dispense with the question of grief.

A lot of people think what I'm
talking about is just greed and

greeds been around for a long time.

It's not just greed.

Greed implies that you know you
were doing something wrong or

something that is entirely self-serving.

I've known lots of people who function
in that shadow financial system

that I didn't think were greedy and I
don't think they thought they were great.

They thought they were
doing the right thing.

The right thing is in their judgment.

To take money out of places where
it can be lost due to wastage or

in the fish and sea and bring that money
to places where it can be safe and

secure and can grow and
can contribute to global prosperity.

How did we get to the point of thinking
that this is the right thing to do.

We certainly did not learn
this from Adam Smith.

Adam Smith as I'm sure you recall
wrote the book Wealth of Nations

published in seventeen seventy six

the same year as the Declaration of
Independence in the United States so

that the two some little documents
that laid out the principles for

the democratic capitalist system
appeared in the same year.

In Wealth of Nations.

Adam Smith.

Sets forth what he thinks
are the the ways to accomplish a free

market system that can generate economic
progress and prosperity for all people.

But Adam Smith's first commitment and he.

First interest was in moral philosophy.

Before he wrote wealth of
nations seventeen years earlier.

He wrote a book called The Theory
of Moral Sentiments and

in this book he laid out the.

The core characteristics of sympathy and

sincerity that he believed
were needed to for

people to operate in narrow
communities and in a larger societies.

Adam Smith stressed compassion.

In suffering and empathy for others.

He he he wanted and

he envisioned people who would
be upright and principled and

conscientious and
trustworthy people of sincerity and

sympathy and these were the kinds
of people that he felt.

Could successfully operate
the free market system

that he talked about in Wealth of Nations.

Throughout both of Adam Smith's
books Wealth of Nations and

Theory of Moral Sentiments at every

juncture where he had to decide
between the interests of the rich

versus the interests of the poor he
opted for the interests of the poor and

the weak he revised both of his books
repeatedly through his life and

at every juncture at every point
in both of his books he opted for

the interest of the poor and
the weak today's reality.

With a great deal of wealth accruing
to the top while billions of

people around the world live in poverty
is precisely the outcome that Adam Smith.

Tried to avoid.

What happened.

In the early years of
the industrial revolution.

Buddying capitalist found
much more appealing

the ideas of a just of
a different gentleman.

Jeremy Bentham.

Jeremy Bentham was the chief proponent
of the philosophy of utilitarianism

the philosophy that says
the principal goal of society

should be maximizing the total
advantages across the society.

Bentham was basically concerned
about the greatest good for

the greatest number that's the that's
often quoted as the the fundamental

principle of utilitarianism the greatest
good for the greatest number.

In built thems view society
should be all about maximizing

the total advantages across
the whole of the society but

them goes on to say make
sacrifices of the of

the happiness of a few to
the greater happiness of the rest.

You can you can dispense with some people
within his utilitarian philosophy and

you can use them to advance
the total advantages of society.

Now these were ideas that these
young capitalists could embrace

life is all about maximizing.

Selective sacrifice of the interests of
some people is acceptable in justify me

it's whatever you have to do to accomplish
this this maximization is justified.

Distribution within
the society is not important.

It's the tops of those those bar
charts it's the total amount of

of wealth and happiness and it vantage for
the society that is important.

Distribution with.

In the society is not important.

And furthermore human
rights can be subordinated

to the interest of maximizing.

Jeremy Bentham ZX utilitarian ideas.

Sure but the influence of
Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments.

Emanating from Jeremy Bentham.

There arose a capitalism.

Utilitarianism union that has
lasted now for two hundred years.

And in that process.

It has rather affectively reduced further
developments in moral philosophy for

much of that period indeed for
about one hundred seventy five years.

Until the one nine hundred seventy S.
In one nine hundred seventy one

a Harvard professor named
John Rawls wrote a book entitled

A Theory of Justice and
in this book he takes on

the notion that maximizing should
be the first goal of society.

He takes it on frontally.

And Raul's his words each
person invests possess it.

And in viability founded on justice
that even the welfare of society as

a whole cannot override each person
possesses this in viability and

the interests of society is a whole
cannot override this concern.

In other words he says he's tackling
the maximizing idea frontally

saying no society's first order
its first commitment should not

be to maximizing it should be to justice.

Rawls offers a.

Thought experiment.

If you could bring together
a group of people and.

Have them set aside
whatever intellectual or

cultural baggage they
bring to the discussion.

If you could bring
together a group of people

to be gauche eate the terms
of their existence.

They would never come up with
the system we have at the present time

they would never come up with
a system that would disadvantage for

example four out of five people
in order that one out of five

could be advantaged they would never come
up with a system that says life is all

about maximizing they would come up
with a system that stresses justice for

each individual as being
the first goal of society.

This is an absolutely stunning.

Concept taking utilitarianism
to task right at its its

core beliefs taking the maximizing
notions to task right at the core.

The last four decades.

Have been the most fertile
period in history.

For the development of
theories of justice theories

that seek to displace
the priority of maximizing.

With the priority of justice as
the first commitment of society.

When we embrace maximizing as
the first of our priorities.

We in ever the belief focus on
maximizing what we can see.

Maximizing our own advantages
maximizing what is the greatest

advantage to ourselves and
our families and our companies and

our countries the shadow financial
system which I have described to you.

Is in fact the.

The legitimization of illegality.

In the name of maximizing it
is the embody that in justice.

Bent the flawed idea of maximizing
the greatest good for the greatest number.

Has instead contributed to
the greatest good for a small number.

With John Rawls and others the capitalism.

Utilitarianism Union is under attack.

But the capitalists
themselves have not noticed.

The great twenty first century
transition the title of my talk

has to be toward a more equitable world.

This is unsustainable.

This cannot last.

A world of eight or

nine billion people during your life
times with this level of disparity.

Among its citizens is a world that
is fraught with risk a world that

will be unstable and
in secure this has to change any quality.

And the need to change this reality.

This is the idea that I would
like true leave with you and

convey to you in the hopes
that you might think about it.

The rest of your lives.

Thank you thank you very much.

Thank you.

You would get it that the that the cash
flows from the developing countries.

Into the Western countries that
are illicit or legal amount to about

one maybe one point two point
three trillion dollars per year.

Yet the disparity is far greater than
that when you look at your chart it's

in the fifty or
sixty trillion dollars per year.

So clearly just dealing with these
illicit funds is not the answer or

putting up the total answer so
how would you how would you dissipate

that this income inequality actually
be alleviated over the next century.

Well clearly where we're
coming from is the need

to make the at the address of
the problem a two way street.

We need to we need to
recognize that we have

a row to play in in maximizing
development for poor countries

we need to get our act together and
stop being so receptive to this money.

That's that's where we're coming from
there are a lot of other aspects to

the development of Quezon that
I'm not including here and

we're not trying to suggest that this
is a total solution to the problem.

I am trying to suggest that
foreign aid which was one hundred

which is running about one hundred twenty
billion a year is being badly offset

by the illicit money that is coming
out of developing countries.

Incidentally.

The community of economic
development scholars.

Indeed the World Bank and
USA ID and others were at first

opposed to our analysis we've been doing
this kind of analysis for five years now.

They were at first opposed
to it because they

thought that it was
a threat to foreign aid.

What's the point of hundred twenty
billion the foreign aid going in.

If one point two trillion
of illicit money turns

around comes back out again we
were not trying to threaten for.

OK it's taken us.

Up and just in the past year
that we have gotten to develop

community to understand what we're
talking about and they have now embraced.

What we're talking about U.N. Development
Program is totally on our side USA ID.

Yes What we're talking about a great
many developing countries get what we're

talking about we've had a breakthrough but
it took it took really five years

to get the development community
to think about what we're talking.

Yes.

What are the challenges when you're
trying to convince lawmakers to make

some of the changes you lined out
ahead of time before this when

some of the companies that pay for
their campaigns or something or

have vested interest in this illegal
money and what kind of how do you

overcome those challenges and you've hit
the nail on the head the major problem is.

We in the West.

And the Western countries United States
in Europe we like the money that comes

that comes out of other
places into our coffers.

We try to make the point that this
is counterproductive not productive

as I've indicated this level of
disparity cannot go on this.

This has to change but
it's a process of trying to appeal to

closing the loopholes that
facilitate this this money and

interestingly the major
impetus to this has

come over the last fifteen years or
so as we

see the Western countries concerned about
their all of the loss of tax revenues.

They're all loss of capital flowing out of
western countries which has been fairly

substantial.

It's it is what has
opened up this dialogue.

Is in part.

Our seeing how it affects us.

Indeed the financial crisis.

Of the past three three and
a half years has its roots

very much in the shadow financial
system not completely but in

good part in the shadow financial system
and we've been able to make the case that

was punitive to Western interest that
doesn't mean we've won the fight.

It's chipping away at what
has become normalized.

In the international movement of money and
in.

The activities of multinational
corporations the steady process of

chipping away and we have made
substantial progress five years ago

the words illicit financial
flows were not on the table.

They were not in the political
economy vocabulary.

We have succeeded in getting those words
into the political economy vocabulary.

In in the words of many many
organizations and and people.

Right up to the G twenty the UN and
Hillary Clinton and

the O.E.C.D. and I.M.F. and so forth.

The next step.

Having gotten those words into

the vocabulary is to continue
to make progress in curtailing

these folks we are making a good bit
of progress a great deal of progress.

To be here.

I must if you don't e I'm
an exchange student from Argentina.

I wanted to ask you a question.

I know lots of adults in Argentina who pay
forty four Prince percent income tax and

I wanted to ask you this viable
way to solve this inequality

you're talking about and what do you
say to these kind of people to compare.

And it's not crazy to me this.

Argentina is an interesting example.

As you know Argentina the dollar rise its
economy in the early one nine hundred

ninety S. It made the dollar and
the peso fully convertible

you could walk into a bank with a armload
of pesos in exchange for dollars.

No record of who you were anything else.

Argentina did that partly because
it thought that this would curtail

the outflow of money from the country.

It did not particularly curtail
it did to a certain extent but

not to a great extent did it.

Curtail the outflow of
money from Argentina.

And the reason for that is because.

If there's someone in a developing country
that wants to get their money abroad.

They're going to they're going to
do it is secretly as possible and

the mispricing of trade is
the easiest way to do it such that

nobody else needs to know that you're
doing and I could give you a technical

explanation of that but the mispricing
of trade is the easiest way to do it.

Let's talk about tax levels and
despair at the and so forth.

Do you know what country has the highest
standard of living in the world

among real countries.

Norway Norway has a tax
rate of about forty

five percent Norway has a strong nearly

high tax rate and at the same time a low
level of disparity between rich and poor.

And at the same time the high
standard of living in the world.

How does it do this it does this
by having a egalitarian society in

which everybody is pretty
well turned on to Prague.

Yes of their country.

They're also blessed to have a great
deal of oil coming out of the North Sea

which facilitates it but one interesting
case I go to Norway frequently because no

always a major funder of what we do and
every time I go into I look around and

I say my goodness forty five
percent taxes gets you a lot.

It's a beautiful beautiful city and it.

It has the highest standard
of living in the world.

How do you do that.

How do you put together a high

tax rate the highest standard
of living in the world.

You do with a very responsible government
that takes those tax revenues and

spends them spends them very well I'm
not suggesting the United States could

get away with a forty five percent tax
rate that would have higher than that in

World War two when we were totally
focused on winning that conflict but

that wouldn't fly today.

Mr Baker means Francis I mean current
studio here in the college amusement.

My question kind of has to
deal with the task force for

financial integrity in
economic development.

I've just been researching it very
basically I realize it's pretty new.

I'm really curious to hear about you
know the fact that it is a public and

private partnership between organizations
and governments and sort of if you could

talk about the success we've had with that
maybe the challenges the see with this

sort of an organization it seeks
to include both sides of the two

very different areas of
concern five years ago

a number of civil society
organizations of which we were one and

a number of governments held
a series of three meetings.

In which we talked about this
phenomenon illicit money flowing out of

developing countries and the harm that
that does to to those countries and

the way that that undermines
foreign aid for the richer

countries we had three meetings at the end
of those three meetings the decision was

made to form the task force on for
the actual integrity and economic develop.

We were selected to direct the task force.

Of the task force comprises seven
civil society organizations.

I think eleven governments and
a foundation the civil society

organizations are our organization
Global financial integrity.

Global Witness Transparency International.

Christian Aid Tax Justice Network
tax Research L.L.C.

and Euro dad the civil society
organizations the governments include.

Norway Germany Denmark
the Babylons France Spain Chile.

India Canada South Africa and so forth and

we continue to add to
the governments all the time.

In addition the Ford Foundation
is a member.

We are a task force.

What what we the civil
society organizations ask

of the governments is permit us.

Truth.

Pursue our grest civilly
greater transparency

in the global financial system for
the purpose of addressing this problem.

We do not ask governments to or

breach or everything that
we're putting all the table.

What we ask them to do is is agree that

we can be out in front on these
issues we can take the leading

role in advocating these efforts and
this is work.

Governments are prepared to.

Let us get out in front.

It is an interesting consortium it is
not an easy going to source to run.

But we we've been we've
been quite successful in

working with governments to address.

The kinds of issues that we're focused on
basically were focused on transparency

the need for greater transparency by
getting rid of the shadow financial system

and focusing on transparency and the task
force has been working very effectively.

Why so many of us and innings didn't
I was just lying if you wouldn't

mind expanding upon your involvement
in the in exciting here to talk.

I didn't get your question.

I was just wondering if you wouldn't
mind expanding upon your involvement in

the an exciting and
involved at Georgia Tech.

Well involved in exciting.

I was wondering what you were
involved in within that society and

what you did in this is ninety.

If you didn't mean that.

I understand and act as a secret.

Now it wasn't what it was.

We didn't really do anything it was just

it was just an honor to be for

an act and Kate you still have dealt
with that but you still have voted.

We didn't we didn't really do anything and

it was it was there was an R.
I understand is the secret society now

I have no idea what it's a secret.

Hi I'm like well you're see I'm
a senior say man when you're

Jewish tech I was wondering through your
work with G.F.I. and the task force and.

I know there's a decline in it was flows
in two thousand and nine I was wondering

why have you had a measurable impact on
the list flows specifically the commercial

list flows out of the developing
nations like as a result of your work.

I don't think we've got
a measurable impact yet but

we certainly have a lot of
countries adopting our agenda.

I've just returned from from Africa ten.

Days ago in which we've got
a whole cot turned on to our

agenda two years ago we wrote a report
illicit financial flows out of Africa.

The United Nations Economic Commission for

Africa based in address
Ababa took up the report.

And has moved it through

the African ministers finance and
developing ministers.

And to a what it what we
call a high level panel

that is taking this issue much much
further I was in South Africa high

level panel is chaired by former president
of South Africa Tabo Mbeki for the first

time we've got a cot turned on to what
we're talking about that's progress.

We did a report on India a year and
a half ago.

At first the Indian illicit financial
flows out of India and first

the Indian government was dismissive of
the report saying this can't be right.

But with an enormous
amount of press commentary

on our report the Minister of Finance
reversed himself after a month and

named three Indian institutions
to do the same analysis.

Again and see if they come up with.

Similar figures and since then.

India has joined the task force and
is very much involved with us.

In January we released
our report on Mexico.

Mexico we estimate has had
fifty billion dollars a year.

Disappearing out of there.

Roughly sets the year two thousand are our
analysis went back much earlier than that

but just since two thousand
over that decade about

fifty billion dollars a year and about
sixty percent of that we estimate came.

To the United States.

Mexico's in the throes of an election it's
a little bit difficult to get them to

focus on it.

However Mexico is requesting
of the United States

automatic exchange of tax information back
and forth between the United States and

Mexico United States has had
this with Canada for many years.

Mexico has had it with
Canada in recent years but

the United States and Mexico have not made
this arrangement so we certainly encourage

Mexico to push very very hard to have
this accomplished as soon as possible.

The next meeting of the G. twenty heads of
state will be in Mexico in three months or

so and we hope that they will continue to
push but each of the countries that we

work with has has taken elements of what
we're talking about and move it forward.

Or are there recently Italy made
the decision to allow for the repatriation

of illegal funds that were brought in
the you know even though they had been tax

originally there was a small fee if
they brought him back into the country.

I mean Italy is a part
of the developed world.

Do you think the sort of
similar policies might help

countries in the developing world
to offer the repatriation of.

Money money like that.

Good question mark.

India is considering this right
now what's called an amnesty.

If you bring your money back we
will charge a small tax on it and

we won't ask questions how you
got it out in the first place.

The United States did this some years ago.

And that brought back the United States
got back about three hundred

billion dollars The quid pro quo
between the government of the.

It would bring the money back.

Was that those corporations would
invest the money in plant and

equipment and hiring and so forth.

They didn't do so they use the money for
bonuses executive bonuses and

they use the money to make acquisitions
of other companies they did not spend

that three hundred billion
dollars on a plan equipment.

Italy is is hoping to get back some money.

India is considering I was just on a T.V.

program two days ago saying I don't
think it will work for India.

I think it's it's not a very effective way
in the first place in the case of India

to bring that money back into
India before you have established

mechanisms to curtail its ongoing outflow
just means that you're going to have

a turnaround in going right back
out again that makes no sense.

The first thing to do is to
establish the procedures that try to

keep illicit money from
flowing out of your country.

I'm I'm not real big on amnesty
arrangements I think they are problematic.

We'll see whether Italy's work.

The United States is currently considering
another amnesty arrangement I'm not

sure whether that'll fly or
not the first one was not very successful.

Right.
With lots of the Georgia Tech today

thank you thank you.